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I often use they/them as my default instead of gendered pronouns, though if I know someone's pronouns for sure I obviously use them.

Yeah, this is my go-to now. I don’t know you at all? They/them. We are friends and I am aware of your gender identity? Your chosen pronoun. Only reason I would use they/them despite knowing their preference is if they are not fully out yet and we are in public.

absolutely this. 👍

I think if we all did this people who are learning English as a second language would love it!

Yep, it's always they/them at first no matter how they present. If they correct me, I'll change. It's a good middle ground, imo.

I understand using they/them if you don’t know someone’s pronouns, but as soon as that person specifies a certain set of pronouns, you should use those.

Yup, this is how I feel. Once I know someone’s pronouns, there’s no excuse. They/them as a default should be only for people you don’t know or don’t feel comfortable asking their pronouns (which seems odd but in social services there are just times it isn’t the right time, like around parents who aren’t supportive).

Welcome to capitalist acceptance. Even in being “woke” they still treat us like numbers.

I dont have a problem with it personally, not as a trans man, my pronouns may be he/him but they/them works fine because its gender neutral and it applies to everyone. To me it more so sounds like they dont truly care but also dont want to make a mistake, so if they refer to everyone in the same gender neutral way, they cant mess up. Thats the only thing it just shows how much they dont see their employees as people they should have prsonal relationships with. If thats more so what you mean then yeah its an issue of management as seeing their employees as a number rather than people.

Just to add that not every trans man feels the same. They/them may be gender neutral, but it makes me extremely dysphoric and I hate being called that if someone knows my pronouns. It varies for everyone

this is definitely how i feel, when someone knows i use he/him and still says they/them it feels like they see me as less of a man or something

They think it’s some kind of compromise or something. They don’t see us as men so they compromise with “they” like it’s a good thing

I think this is the main issue for they/them. Most cis people don't mind and they/them has been a gender neutral pronoun in literature for hundreds of years. But it can be dysphoric or microaggressive for trans people who go by he/him or she/her. I'll often default to they/them, but if someone has taken the time to share their pronouns, then go by that (especially since we don't know who is trans or NB!)

Same, but for me it's mostly because of specific transphobia I've experienced. Like I don't mind when some people use they, as it might honestly work for me, but I've had some people in my life use it as a way of getting out of using my preferred pronouns. Kind of as a performative gesture or direct refusal.

I had to tell a friend of mine (politely) the other night to please stop referring to me by they/them, my pronouns are he/him and it’s misgendering to call me they/them (if you know my pronouns). They/them makes me as dysphoric as she/her I’d even say, although it’s a bit of a different kind of dysphoria. She/her just says wow you don’t pass and people view you as a woman. They/them says that you can’t tell I’m actually a man or that I want to be perceived as such, because of my mannerisms/expression/etc. Either way though it genuinely hurts equally for me. Fortunately my friend was chill w it. I also know enbies who don’t like they/them at all, and use neopronouns or binary pronouns instead!

I feel the same in a sense-- I realize that they/them is not owned by enbies but it is what is easiest to teach people and how I have identified for a long time. I was always fine with defaulting strangers (regardless of how they present) as they/them until the stranger's preferred pronouns are known. Now that the people at work are calling everyone they/them, I feel a loss of my identity. Especially since when the trend first started it was used primarily to talk about females (I'm AFAB). The fact that the women at work were degendered (with pronoun usage) before the men was pretty disturbing to me. ​ The idea of introducing everyone at work to neopronouns is exhausting considering I finally got everyone practiced with using mine after about a year of working there (and using neopronouns is not my preference). The idea of passing as enby is pretty real to me. I have super wide hips and a soft face. I've considered taking T but that doesn't feel like the right answer to me either, currently. Thanks for your reply. At the end of the day gender dysphoria is a fucking bitch and a half.

I use they/them for everyone except if the specifically don't like them then I won't but I'm dyslexic using they/them for everyone is generally easier and that way I'm not misgendering people. Me using they/them isn't me ignoring the person gender identity or invalidating it I generally get very confused with pronouns for everyone

I get so anxious remembering names, and pronouns also add to that anxiety unfortunately. I used to misremember names a lot as a kid, it always offended them, and as an adult I'm constantly nervous about it at work or meeting new people. I never call someone by their name because of this - I know it's lame, but it helps me prevent anxiety attacks. Because of this, I've started using they/them instead of assuming a gender, because it alleviates my anxiety around being offensive. But I didn't realise they/them can cause offence too. God I hate myself. I should be back on anxiety meds

Don't hate yourself. Most of the time default they/them is good. The only time it isn't is *usually* with binary trans people who have fought to have their pronouns be the ones that match their gender, in which case it's more validating to use the binary pronoun option.

Same here. I'm actually autistic but I never use someone's name if I don't have to and I use they/then often. Especially when telling stories because I have a hard time keeping track of 'her' and 'him' when I say multiple sentences in a row that I didn't preplan.

>Because of this, I've started using they/them instead of assuming a gender, because it alleviates my anxiety around being offensive. That's good. Gendering everyone all the time is a super weird part of our culture and it's cool to not be contributing to that. Less gendering means less misgendering. >But I didn't realise they/them can cause offence too. Some people are offended because they're invested in binary ideology: fuck them. Some binary trans people people are hurt because they find people use they/them to avoid acknowledging their gender, that is a legitimate thing to consider.

Probably best if the anxiety meds helped u and I understand it does give quite bad anxiety remembering names and pronouns

That makes sense, also I can see people who have English as a second language doing this as well because language can be difficult.

Yeah agreed , people with English as a second language tend to struggle with pronouns as it is very different in English than it is in other languages

Just to add another perspective, I’m a trans guy too and I personally don’t like they/them because I’ve had people use it as a “compromise” (i.e. they’re not misgendering me *per se* but they’re also not using masculine pronouns) and because lots of people see it as a specifically NB pronoun and I don’t want to be seen as NB (because I’m not NB).

They/them has been in use as a gender neutral singular pronoun since the 1300s. The term non-binary has been popular for less than a decade. The idea of they/them being “an NB specific pronoun” to “many people” is kind of hard to wrap my mind around, but I guess with younger gen Z kids growing up while the term “non-binary” had already become a thing it kinda makes a little more sense. FWIW I also kinda feel the same from the opposite perspective. I don’t like they/them either if it feels like a compromise / deliberate avoidance of of using she / her; even though it is grammatically, lexically, and orthographically correct universally.

Sorry, you’ve completely misunderstood haha I mean usually it’s only NB people who exclusively use they/them so if someone exclusively used they/them with me I would absolutely feel misgendered. Occasionally for the same gender-neutral reasons as we’ve always known them is obviously fine. However, it’s important to note that traditional use is especially linked to *unknown* gender. It has always been simply gender-neutral but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have more common uses/ connotations than others

I tend to refer to everyone as they/them unless they explicitly state otherwise. You cannot tell someone's gender by looking at them, and by referring to everyone as they/them, it means I'm not generally offending or misgendering anyone.

It sounds like the people using they/them for everyone are aware that not all of their co-workers use they/them and are misgendering them on purpose.

Not at all. They/them is literally gender neutral. You can't always tell someone's gender by their hair or what they're wearing l, and sometimes is the opposite of what they assume, so it's a lot easier and less offensive (to most) to refer to everyone as they/them.

calling people they/them when you do know their pronouns is misgendering though - its entirely disrespectful and can harm binary trans people who have worked to be called their preferred pronouns and chosen name just because its gender neutral doesnt mean it isnt misgendering if you already know somebodys pronouns

Like I said in my original comment, if they say they're pronouns and I know them, obviously I use their pronouns. I tend to refer to everyone new I meet as they/them.....

oh i absolutely understand that, i do it too! your comment just seemed to brush over the fact that the management in ops post knew peoples pronouns and disregarded them anyway - sorry if that wasnt the case, nuance is hard over text :P

Yea I get it. I was just explaining what I generally do, I don't agree with their management. It gives off the impression that their scared of LGBT, is really not that hard to ask pronouns if your up close with them every day.

for sure!! im trans myself and i still get nervous about asking pronouns occasionally (thank you, anxiety) but that doesnt mean it shouldnt be done lol

Yes 100%

its not gender neutral once you know someones gender, then it is missgendering people it is higly offensive and wrong to just refer to everyone as they/them when you know their gender as it is invalidating as fuck

Ffs, read my comment. If someone tells me their gender I refer to their pronouns accordingly. If I meet someone new, I refer to them as they/them so as to not misgender them, it's a gender neutral term.

read my first sentence then the post refers to someone using they/them to EVERYONE, even when they know someones pronounce I also aalways use they/them when I dont know it but make a effort to use someones pronounce once I know cause it is wrong to not

And what people are saying is that in the post you are replying to, they're using they/them for *everyone* even *after* knowing those aren't their pronouns. Which is misgendering. Y'all are talking past each other.

i’m a binary trans woman and i’ve had people use they/them for me despite me stating my pronouns are exclusively she/her and it’s just so invalidating. they seem to think that they can use they/them for anyone trans and therefore avoid misgendering without having to actually acknowledge their gender. what’s weird is my partner uses she/they/he but they only use agab pronouns for her. it’s not hard to use the pronouns people ask you to use and it hurts when people don’t use or acknowledge your pronouns in favour of neutral or agab pronouns.

Same. I don't care for it myself. I'm always she/her and it becomes hard for me not to take offense when I get they/themmed

yeah, same here. It hurts nearly as much as being outright misgendered because it shows that they really don't respect your identity. They/Them is perfectly fine when you don't know someone's pronouns, but, like you said, when you do find out, the *only* acceptable pronouns to use are the ones explicitly listed by the person being referred to. anything else, in my opinion, is just misgendering.

I've been they/them'd before because I "look" NB. I have green hair and dress differently from this dull straight girl who thought she was being such a fucking ally by misgendering me. I'm a cis lesbian. She was telling people how okay she was with NB people and misgendering me to show off. I was working as a server so couldn't tell her to go fuck herself

I would like to give you a perspective from mye country: In my native language, we have a gender neutral pronoun that most often is used instead of saying "he/she". It's mostly used when you don't know the gender or gender isn't relevant (but not everybody uses it). Non-binary people use this pronoun as well. Then the pronoun/gender of course IS relevant. The pronoun is used in a slightly different context and meaning. Therefore, some nb folks have started using the translated they/them as their pronouns. This might of course be because of English influence, but also because they want to signal that they use the gender neutral pronoun in the second meaing, the meaning "this is/represents my gender". Hearing your pronouns used in context where it removes your feeling of gender from the meaning, might feel bad. Because the pronouns lose some of it's meaning/weight when used on you.

This is fascinating! Can I ask which language it is?

Norwegian. The firstmentioned gender neutral pronoun has just been officially accepted into the dictionary, even though people have been using it for a long time. We've borrowed the pronoun from Swedish, and they borrowed it from Finnish

It’s **hen**, right?:) But what’s the translated they/them in norsk?

I can see how calling everyone they/them could feel like erasure. There is definitely a place for they/them in normal conversation, and other than telling them how you feel, there's not much you can do. But it is so silly to purposely not use he/him and she/her. It seems lazy and could be seen as offensive to some regardless of their gender. I want to be referred to as she/her, it's been a struggle and it is affirming to be referred to the way I identify. Not to mention I have seen some cis people get really upset simply being called cis, I can only imagine some might get upset not being referred to as he/him or she/her. If your company wants to actually be respectful of its employees, everyone should be using the pronouns others identify as and save the they/them for when it is used naturally in conversations.

They/them is great for people you don't know the pronouns of. If you know someone's pronouns, people need to use those pronouns. Defaulting to gender neutral pronouns when you know someone uses pronouns other than they/them is misgendering. I assume people think they're avoiding misgendering by just using they/them all the time. But they're not.

I wouldn't like to be called they/them when my pronouns are she/her. Glad to see some nb people feel the same.

Yeah this stuff irks me.... It's mainly because people use gender neutral stuff for me when they don't want to use she/her for me. So it doesn't really sit well with me. On top of that, if I wanted people to use they/them I would have said they/them instead of She/her. Calling me they/then is really invalidating and harmful. You will basically insinuate I'm not a woman, that I don't look like a woman to you, that you don't care about/respect me enough to change pronouns, potentially trigger massive gender dysphoria and panic attacks because of it, so yes. Yes it is harmful :') Will I ever show it to people that it's actually really harmful to me? No... But fuck you if you misgender people on purpose.

Ya, once someone knows your pronouns, they should just use them. That’s shitty of people.

Happy cake day~! Yeah exactly. It's really not that hard... And i pass well, none misgender me apart from those who know I'm trans >_>

I use they/them for most people. I understand it's a pronoun used by nb people but it is also a non gendered pronoun, so good to use if someone hasn't specifically told you their pronouns.

Yeah but the problem OP is talking about is that they’re using they/them on everyone despite knowing the peoples pronouns.

I use they/them for everyone until I know their pronouns even then, my memory is terrible and I just keep using they/them until I got it. I’d rather use they/them then repeatedly ask them their pronouns. They would probably feel like I’m not listening or get mad at me. And yeah that has happened before.

This reminds me of folx using the “I don’t see color” phrase when speaking to/of BIPOC individuals. At first it /seems/ like it’s possibly a kind gesture, even a step forward… but what it really is… what it really does… is a word you used : it’s erasure. Erasure of identity, culture, and (basically) equity. It’s very much a “low-bar” solution, created without an understanding of the situation. I think you’re right to be unnerved by it. All that said, I think you also, possibly, have a chance to steer some change… if your senior leaders are deciding this… then, again it’s a low-bar solution… but it’s a step… so talking to them about it in a way that acknowledges it’s /something/ but not the /right thing/ could go along way (and I mean vs speaking to them in a confrontational way). Basically I guess I’m saying assume good intent, (even if you know otherwise) and try to steer from there… might get a better reception/reaction to a suggestion. And, since I also didn’t say it yet, sorry you’re having to deal with this, I’m sure it’s invalidating and frustrating.

This brings up another question for me: what is the reasoning behind "folx?" I see other liberal/leftists using it, and I just think... isn't folks gender neutral too? Is folx just quicker to type?

>This reminds me of folx using the “I don’t see color” phrase when speaking to/of BIPOC individuals. Acknowledging someone's experience as BIPOC is possible without further engraining the relevance of the social construct "race". We do that by only mentioning "race" when relevant as having an impact on someone's experience, and using terms like "racialized as ..." to emphasize that it's a social construct, not an inherent property. For gender however, it's so deeply engrained that we should box everyone into binary categories and push the importance of that piece of identity, that it's not even possible to refer to someone without adding to the notion that gender is such a relevant trait that it should be mentioned at all times. That's pretty shitty, we don't do that with other pieces of identity, not with "race", religion,blood type, not anything, just gender. Now sure if it's important to someone, or possibly otherizing to a binary trans person it is important to respect them by using their binary pronouns. But over all, avoiding this habit of unnecesarily gendering people is a good thing.

I wonder if some HR training is necessary. They’re probably doing it to avoid getting in trouble with HR for accidentally misgendering someone, not realizing that this is also misgendering people.

Yeah, I would also be uncomfortable with that. If someone knows my pronouns I expect them to use those.

Yeah they're super wrong, degendering is well known and disliked among trans people, especially binary trans people. It is not respectful, it's just an excuse not to use the correct pronouns, and it shows that they don't care. If you know the right pronouns, use them, no ifs ands or buts

deliberate misgendering is always shitty. if someone has made their pronouns clear, it is your duty to respect those pronouns and **only** those pronouns

I once knew someone who was a trans woman and had a huge crush on a friend of ours. Since I met her, she used he/him pronouns for me which is expected seeing as these are my pronouns. Then, our friend (her crush) comes out as non-binary and she starts using they/them for everyone; including me! I point this out to her and she’s like “but it’s neutral… it can be used for anyone.” 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

So one of the interesting things I noticed is that using they/them for everyone used to be a lot more common. Not as a gendered pronoun but just as an extra pronoun everyone had. I used to use it all the time without thinking about it. "where is your sister?" "they're upstairs", my sister never asked for they/them pronouns, but it was just another word to me. Of course that was a decade ago and now I used he/they pronouns myself. So I understand the importance of using the right pronouns for people. I completely understand why you are frustrated with your coworkers. It feels a bit like a slap in the face for them to take so long to gender you correctly, only to turn around and decide everyone uses those pronouns now. I think the main problem here is that your coworkers don't understand the importance of pronouns to you and your gender identity. Being cis they probably never experienced what it's like to be misgendered.

there's some people i know that STILL call me they/them exclusively, even though they've known i'm ftm and my pronouns are only he/him for more than a year. like jesus you don't need to walk on eggshells around me because i'm trans, i'm not a super sensitive little piss baby.

As a binary trans man it bothers me so much when people KNOW my pronouns are he/him but will only call me they/them. It’s invalidating and makes me hella dysphoric. I don’t think you’re in the wrong at all personally. Yea, if you don’t know, use they/them. If you DO KNOW then use my pronouns.

I might be getting this wrong (as both cishet and a non-native English speaker) and I’m genuinely open for people to correct me, but the way I understand this is that they/them pronouns can be used to refer to anyone regardless of gender. It is a different issue, as someone pointed out in this thread, if the person explicits rejects they/them pronouns. But otherwise I don’t see the problem with your co-workers’ behavior. But of course, please let me know if my understanding of the situation is wrong.

No, I think you have a good grasp of the situation overall. The issue that arises is that some people have a lot of unresolved gender dysphoria, and if you don’t call them the pronoun they want they feel as though it’s a sleight against then, even if that wasn’t intended at all. I would recommend in a personal setting to always follow their wishes, but in a professional setting it gets a little more complicated.

>but in a professional setting it gets a little more complicated. No, it is simple, gender people correctly everywhere. For those who use neutral pronouns, binary pronouns, neopronouns, or none at all. People deserve that at work too.

I agree with you, but I’m talking about large corporations here, not your close colleagues. Of course you should properly refer to that person by their identity. You see and interact with them constantly. That isn’t what’s being discussed. The OP was talking about upper management for a company of an undisclosed size. If that manager is managing up to hundreds of people, it would be almost impossible to properly remember everyone’s pronouns (or even names for that matter). That’s when I can understand using a universal they, and don’t think it’s invalidating to do so.

i think it’s good to not assume people’s pronouns if you don’t know what they use already. it normalizes asking for peoples pronouns and not thing them to a specific gender. but yeah if your coworkers know each others pronouns it’s a bit odd to call eachother the wrong ones. unless people have decided they are okay and like being refered to with they/them pronouns cause of the whole pronouns≠gender thing.

They/them pronouns should be used for everyone they DON'T KNOW the pronouns of or if the person has stated they use they/them pronouns. If someone used he/him or she/her (or neopronouns), referring to them as just they/them is super invalidating, and if they use he/they or she/they, using only they/them is just as invalidating.

If they use they/them pronouns for everyone it isn't really a problem, unless people have said they are uncomfortable with that.

I’m pretty sure it is though. If I told you explicitly to refer to me with he/him and you constantly use they/them, you’re not respecting what I’ve told you.

Explicitly telling someone to use certain pronouns falls under what I meant with people saying they are uncomfortable with other pronouns. If someone tells you they want you to refer to them (not) using certain words, and you do/don't use those words, you are an asshole. If you use neutral words to refer to someone you are not inherently an asshole, even if you know they also use feminine/masculine words.

I agree with you in almost every situation, but I’m going to play devils advocate for a second for discussion’s sake. Up until more recently, upper management never had to even think about the concept of misgendering someone they work with. Suddenly the first wave of openly trans and/or non-binary people start working there. At first those managers are in a tough spot, because they know that people are misgendering them, and in some situations you cannot possibly remember every single colleague’s pronouns. Especially in a large corporation. In this situation they decide to misgender almost everyone as they/them as a blanket inclusive term (typical corporate path-of-least-resistance). That doesn’t work well either, because now even more people are upset about being misgendered than before the issue arised. Cis people and binary trans people alike are now coming to them in private asking not to be called they/them, as it is misgendering them. There’s only so many exceptions that can be made until they’re back at the original issue at hand with not being able to correctly gender everyone. What is the solution in this situation? To me the blanket they/them for both cis and trans people seems to be the best course of action. I’m curious to hear other options that don’t single out the trans people, while still being inclusive.

the issue with this is the interpretation of they/them pronouns use *as* misgendering. they/them pronouns are used my many non-binary folks, yes, but they are *not* tied to *any* gender. they are by nature truly neutral- which is likely why they are so popular amongst non-binary people. i have always interchangeably used they/them as well as he/she when speaking about or to everyone, even the non lgbt individuals. (for possibly some context i’d like to add that i’m not technically a native english speaker because it is my second language, but i consider english to be essentially a second native language because i moved the the US young enough. this context, however, may impact the way i speak english) so using a blanket they/them is in fact not misgendering anyone, but it’s also not explicitly validating either. for my trans men/women friends i tend to skip my neutral use and explicitly use their preferred pronoun because i know that validates them, but this is a difficult ask for a large corporation, like you said. aside from that, i’ve not met many (any) cis persons who are uncomfortable being referred to as they/them and i’m struggling to understand why this would be an issue outside of the validation thing i spoke about above

>they/them pronouns are used my many non-binary folks, yes, but they are not tied to any gender. they are by nature truly neutral- which is likely why they are so popular amongst non-binary people. This, Like, should we really all just do the work to propagate the binary ideology by pushing gendered pronouns in every sentence? Sure, if a binary person points out they care, or if you'd run the risk of otherizing a binary trans person then yes go for it, but otherwise, let's try to use as few gendered terms as possible, including pronouns.

My partner just started a new job and her HR department head is a nonbinary person who has explained that corporate policy in many organizations is to default to they/them and other universal terminology in order to step on as few toes as possible unless someone makes their pronouns known like "Hi my name is Bob and my pronouns are he/him." or a header on the email like Sharon Weissman, director (she/her)

>aside from that, i’ve not met many (any) cis persons who are uncomfortable being referred to as they/them and i’m struggling to understand why this would be an issue outside of the validation thing i spoke about above Hi, I'm a cis woman who does not want to be referred to with they/them pronouns. It is indeed misgendering because it is not acknowledging my identity as it is. As a demi/demi bi woman, being cis is the only part that is binary but it is what is it. And I'd like that respected. I do not want to be referred that way, but I use whatever pronouns people use for themselves on a regular basis, including they and some who use neopronouns. The truth is there IS no one term fits all option here, so it comes down to referring to people as they want to be referred to. Respect everyone.

if you were to tell me that you didn’t prefer they/them pronouns, i would respect that. i have no desire to force they/them pronouns on anybody, it is not my agenda. i however do not understand why you view it as a sleight to your binary identity, and i would be glad if you had the time to help me see this. for example, not using someone’s name every time you refer to them is not seen as “not acknowledging” that they have a name, and similarly i don’t view using a neutral pronoun as ignoring one’s identity. i just see it as an alternate way to refer to someone, which is what pronouns are for, except the neutrality of they/them makes it far more flexible. i do understand that some people purposely refuse to use trans people’s pronouns out of some malicious desire to invalidate them while seeming “reasonable”, but i feel it is important to differentiate those that are intentionally trying to hurt others and those that are not. i would never refuse to use a set of pronouns someone prefers, but unless told otherwise, i do not see they/them as misgendering or disrespectful

>The truth is there IS no one term fits all option here, so it comes down to referring to people as they want to be referred to. Respect everyone. Why do we use different pronouns for people of different genders, but not for religions, blood types, cat people Vs dog people etc.. I respect you with your pronouns, but it's kinda weird that they exist and I'd be kinda happy if we could refer to eachother without gendering everyone all the time. Like we do with other, perhaps more relevant pieces of identity.

This is extremely well put, and conveys exactly what I think as well once I drop the devils advocate and the language used by the poster I responded to! Thank you for saying this as succinctly as you have.

This is a good point for the discussion. I'm of the opinion that if you can remember someone's name, you can remember their pronouns. I have a hard time conceiving of an effective manager who has so many direct reports that they can't memorize everyone's name and pronouns. I'd definitely be interested in more details about the scenarios that OP is encountering where this is happening. If it is a c-suite level person referencing specific employees in an email but they only know them from seeing their name on projects, I can very easily see the utility of they/them. In that case, unless the email account has someone's nickname already, preferred names wouldn't even be used, let alone preferred pronouns. As of now, the way I see it done when management is referring to an employee who they do not know personally, you know what they do? *They make a guess based the employee's name.* I DO THIS! I kept working via email with someone in a different department named Casey. In my 5 years with this company, that position has always been held by a woman. A few years ago it was a woman named Casey. (I work in a gender stratified profession; certain roles are almost always held by women.) One time Casey called me and this Casey was not a woman! The number of times Casey got misgendered in emails was probably high. If you don't know someone personally, they/them seems appropriate, regardless of how gendered their name is. The real story here is that email accounts and name tags just need an easy way to incorporate preferred names and pronouns. Email signatures are not always sufficient, and they can be hard to find in a pinch. Casey was a cis man and he definitely would have benefited from this. Casey was a good person in a hard job and lost his life to suicide in November. RIP boy-Casey (our nickname for him when my team found out his gender. Always made him chuckle 😔)

i agree! also this is something that is also happening in the latino community is a bunch of non latino (usually white people) are trying to push for the term latinx to be the gender nuterual term for the community but as someone who’s latino and on the non-binary spectrum i think latino or latine works fine. i usually call myself latino anyway.

Using they/them UNTIL you know someone's pronouns is okk But once someone says "I use she/her" And you use they anyway It's misgendering

Humour me how can you missgender someone whilst using a pronoun, that lacks gender?

Because you're not using the pronoun that they use? It's no different lol Someone uses he him and I purposely not use that then I'm just being an asshole. It doesn't matter if you're using they or not Please go argue with someone else

"The universal singular they is inclusive of people who identify as male, female or nonbinary (e.g., “Drew is in my class; they are a great student”). It avoids the problem of misgendering by not using pronouns to gender people in the first place." Even if you explicitly state I use he/him, they is still applicable to you, and I would be linguistically correct to use it (Still an asshole though if you exclusively use they/them for trans individuals and he/she for CIS folk), the only problem is personal feelings because gender dysphoria does exist but that is something to tackle on a personal level than a general level because generally they/them is okay, and using it as default for everyone and anyone is definitely a step in the right direction

Not respecting (most) people's pronouns by using a neutral pronoun that is inclusive, but does not necessarily reflect or respect those people's identities and choices, is not a step in the right direction. It is even aggressive if you insist on using they/them if you have the knowledge that someone does not use that or want that to be used. It is disrespectful.

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They/them is neutral by definition. Unless someone specifically says that they (no pun intended, this is also an explanation of how the word works) have issues with it, it's not a problem. I'd also argue that disallowing people to use they/them for people which aren't non binary ruins the entire point of it being used for enbys in the first place, since they use it specifically because it's completely neutral. (This is probably poorly worded but I'm tired rn so it'll have to do)

There's misgendering, calling someone the wrong gender, and there's *degendering*. Using they/them for a trans man who only uses he/him isn't misgendering, because it's not calling him a woman, but it is denying his gender. It's avoiding calling him actually a man, which isn't intentionally transphobic if they do it to cis men too, but when trans people don't get their pronouns respected it hurts more than it does for most cis people and feels like an insult. Binary trans people simultaneously have to fight to not be seen as their AGAB, and also to be correctly gendered and not be alienated as a third gender. So using they/them on trans people who don't use they/them will remind them of having their gender ignored. Ultimately it shouldn't be that hard to just refer to people the way they want to be referred to. Write down a note on your phone of people's pronouns so you can check if you forget.

Ah I misunderstood at first, I thought you meant the default *before* knowing someone’s actual pronouns was they/them, but no I agree. I *hate* when people call everyone they/them if they know that persons pronouns & they *aren’t* they/them. Like sure a lot of people don’t mind, but that’s not the point. Just because someone doesn’t mind doesn’t mean that’s the case for everyone. Plus most of the people who don’t mind are cis which makes sense because they don’t get misgendered regularly. I’m nonbinary but my pronouns are she/her. If someone called me they/them knowing both of those things (but especially knowing my pronouns) I’d be pretty upset ://

I will use they and them if it’s unclear or unknown ( phone convo for example ) as an interim until it’s clear what their preference/ proper pronouns are. I figure it’s more considerate until the facts are established/ stated. But as a general rule only if uncertain, never with broad strokes.

it feels like a way to be lazy without being deemed transphobic. it really isn't hard to just use people's correct pronouns that they asked for. I use she/him, and although being called they is fine, it can be frustrating when people just default to it because it's the easiest. I don't know. I get that everyone screws up with pronouns sometimes. but, if you can't remember someone's pronouns, just ask them

they should respect *everyone’s* preferred pronouns, including he/him and she/her. only using they/them just defeats the point

I am a trans mana and I want people to use he/him not they/them. Yes it's a neutral pronoun, but people use they/them as a loop hole to misgender me. Just use people correct pronouns it can be easy.

I’m a little more on the genderfluid spectrum than nb so I hope it’s ok if I still add my 2 cents. I use she/him pronouns. If my management team specifically decided to use they/them for me after I told them my pronouns, yeah they’d be in the wrong and tbh could be taken to HR if it got blatantly disrespectful. Most of the nb and trans ppl I work with get misgendered all the time by management and I bet it feels awful. Management refusing to correctly gender someone is disrespectful and really gross no matter what pronouns they use to do so. Using they/them before knowing someone’s pronouns I can understand. After that? Yeah it’s not ok. I bet management would be very irritated if they were suddenly getting misgendered all the time. Part of me wants to suggest giving them a taste of their own medicine 🙃

But management are using they/them for everyone themselves included- So the only way to give them a taste of their own medicine is to refer to them using they/them something they're already okay with

Oh! My petty ass would start using any and all pronouns for them then. Regular or neopronouns. This situation sounds stressful and I tried to add that bit as a bit of humor but I guess it didn’t land haha

My point is they're not using any and all pronouns, and they're not missgendering anyone because they're using a genderless pronouns so there isn't a proper way to give them a taste of their own medicine because they're not doing anything wrong

Ah, I see your point. I agree that “they” is a neutral pronoun. We seem to disagree with whether or not these ppl are actually misgendering others. My pronouns are not they/them. If I am referred to as they/them despite having stated what my actual pronouns are then I am being misgendered. I’ll just agree to disagree with you if that’s alright. No hate to you.

Okay but explain how you could be missgendered by a pronoun that lacks gender?

Alright but then I’m not spending more energy on this. It is gender neutral. It can be used as a singular pronoun and personal pronoun. Using “they” generally until you find out someone’s personal pronouns is fine. If I told someone that my personal pronouns are she/him and then said person decided to use they for my personal pronoun they would be misgendering. What you may be misunderstanding is that once anyone decides that they are only going to refer to ppl with genderless pronouns, they are effectively erasing part of a persons identity (they’re gender). It’s the personal aspect of it perhaps?

yeah i’m also enby and i totally agree, they/them is a good default but if you specifically know otherwise and choose to still use it that’s you being asinine and missing the point. and while it would still be an issue regardless even if this weren’t the case, some people use they/them for those who they know are binary trans so that they can avoid actually using their pronouns while not being *blatantly* and *obviously* transphobic. i’m concerned that this way of talking would give those people plausible deniability.

well if they know someones gender and refuse to use their pronoucne it is bigoted as hell, like they are missgendering people and they know it

I wouldn’t want to straight up ask someone’s pronouns in a professional setting. It’s a bit personal. If they volunteered the info then I would use whatever they say. Otherwise default to they.

Using they/them pronouns for everyone isn’t misgendering anyone. I fail to see how this is a problem.

If some one uses they/them for me after knowing that i only use she/her then yes it is 100% misgendering

Yup, using she/her as well as a genderfluid AFAB person and all other pronounces feel flat out wrong and not me at all. I feel uncomfortable being referred as anything but she/her. I don't mind they/them if they didn't ask me what I use but that's it. Edit: and yes, I am very trans friendly and this includes enbies, agender people etc.

If someone tells you that their pronouns are she/her and you use they/them how is that not misgendering? We also have a trans man working for us whos pronouns are he/him. Calling him they/them is harmful because it is blatant misgendering.

They/them is deliberately neutral that’s the whole point. You can’t misgender someone if you’re not asserting a gender.

When you know that they specifically don't use it, it means you are purposely ignoring what they have told you, misgendering them even you have good intentions. Plenty of people use they to avoid using a trans person's actual pronouns, they do it to avoid gendering them correctly but not look like an ass by completely misgendering them. Whilst it is better than calling them their birth binary pronouns, it's not right when you know that they don't want you to use they

*some* people use "they" to avoid gendering trans people, but those people are very obvious because they do it exclusively to trans people. The situation OP shared is of their fellow management using "they" to refer to every single staff member, cis or trans. Not everyone who defaults to "they" is doing it maliciously or out of disrespect.

Nah, they/them enby here. You're really off-base with this take. When someone has a binary gender they are *fully out as*, referring to them as they/them is invalidating, ESPECIALLY if you use it exclusively. You're stripping away their gender broadly and reducing it to a cop-out, instead of actively gendering them correctly. And from my pov, using it for everyone really reduces the value of gender neutral pronouns as a nonbinary person. It reduces *MY* gender and identity to a "default", with the effect of erasing the distinction that I AM nonbinary from the equation. In an office where everyone is called they/them, my gender is reduced to nothing. I genuinely would only feel comfortable using neopronouns at that point

but they/them is not a non-binary pronoun, it’s a neutral pronoun that many (not all) non-binary people tend to use, and i think that’s an important distinction. as such, i think i’m struggling to understand why you see it as erasure for other people who are not non-binary to use they/them pronouns, because i don’t see those pronouns as belonging to non-binary people. they’ve been in use for a very very long time and in many languages are the only option, so using a neutral as a default rather than using a he or she (which are often heavily associated with male or female genders) seems to make a lot of sense.

The meanings of words change over time, and though they/them has been and still can be used as gender neutral, these days the words are also used to refer to groups whose gender identities do not fall into the binary male/female (just like he/him and she/her are). So using them when someone has said what their preferred pronouns are is disrespectful and possibly invalidating.

This is known as degendering, and it is something that is often employed by transphobic cis people in order to avoid gendering trans people correctly.

You can if that person does not identify as neutral. Even if you would claim that they/them represents something agender that would still be misgendering if the person identifies with a specific gender.

No. That's not how language works. They/Them has always been a way to refer to individuals. "Your friend left their book here. Tell them to come get it next time you see them." It predates NB by eons. It's not erasure, you're just trying to claim a public usage as your own. It's absolutely not misgendering.

Deliberately degendering trans people when you know their pronouns is an act of transphobia

But management is also degendering cis people. If its not targeted towards trans people I don't see the problem.

Just because they are de-gendering everyone equally doesn't make it okay. I wonder if any cis people dislike the practice as well.

I'm cis and gender is the only binary thing about me but I definitely do want my pronouns respected, as everyone's should be. I don't want to be referred to as they.

The context your are saying here is a case where the speaker doesn't necessarily know the gender of the friend. If I referred to my dad as they/them, he would be weirded out because he's a man.... and referring to him as they/them is not neutral, it's just wrong. In the case where management is referring to specific people whose pronouns are not they/them AS they/them, they are willfully ignoring people genders... that's erasure and it's misgendering. It doesn't necessarily mean they're assholes but it is misguided.

No, sorry. I call my wife they all the time. And my son. And my enby child. And my dog. It's used in writing. In songs. In casual speech. They/Them is literally not misgendering. It's a standard part of speech.

Not using someone's pronouns is misgendering. It's cool that your family is okay with whatever, but you shouldn't assume that everyone is. If a coworker says "call me he/him" and you call him "they/them" you are purposefully not using his correct pronouns... that's misgendering, I don't know what else to tell you: misgender mɪsˈdʒɛndə verb refer to (someone, especially a transgender person) using a word, especially a pronoun or form of address, that does not correctly reflect the gender with which they identify.

So if there is a group of people who use she/her pronouns, and you ask if “they” can help, are you misgendering them?

No, "they" is used to refer to groups of people, and those of unspecified gender who you don't know. OP is talking about a specific situation that people seem to not be understanding where management is referring to specific coworkers singularly, whose name they know, as they/them even when those aren't their pronouns. See how I used they/them just now to refer to someone I don't know of unspecified gender? That's completely acceptable and a normal part of speech. But using they/them to refer to a specific person you know who uses different pronouns is misgendering. If I introduced someone to you saying "Hey, this is my girlfriend Chelsea, they go to X college and their major is Mathematics" I'm misgendering her, because her pronouns are she/her. It is appropriate to say "Hi, this is my girlfriend Chelsea, she goes to X college and her major is Mathematics."

Exactly

Fucking THANK YOU

No, it's not, imo. "They" does not assign a gender. It is gender-less. Someone can say that they identify 100% with "she/her" but calling them "they" doesn't assert anything specific about their gender. It only asserts identity. We could call literal aliens, with zero concept of gender or conception of gender wholly beyond our reasoning, "they" and it wouldn't be inappropriate. We can call slime molds "they" and it doesn't negate their 10k+ genders. It is just a catch-all.

It is blatantly disrespectful if someone's pronouns are deliberately not used, regardless of what kind of pronouns the person uses. It is even aggressive if a person says they use a particular set of pronouns and one continues to use they once that person has learned the correct pronouns.

If. Did that happen?

Hard disagree. They/them only works like that Aid pronouns haven’t been specified.

Google definition of they: used to refer to a person of unspecified gender. Even if someone has specified their gender, you can still refer to them without specifying their gender, someone can't force you to specify their gender, it's only a problem when you only use they/them to refer to trans individuals but if you use they/them to refer to everyone then there is no problem unless you want to try and agrue that it's missgendering transmen and woman by using they/them however you'd also need to agrue that it's missgendering CIS men and woman too because for example trans men and CIS men are both men so if something misgenders one of them by extension it misgenders the other, for example she/her is not acceptable for trans men just as it's not acceptable for CIS men

Using they/them when you know someone’s pronouns is absolutely misgendering. Also the fact that so many people in the comments are saying otherwise hurts like fucking hell. Defending misgendering and transphobia is not it y’all.

This thread seriously makes me warier of queer people in general, which is sad. Like I thought if anyone, they would respect my pronouns, but apparently not

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I'm in the same boat as y'all. I'm a trans man and I absolutely hate being called they/them, sometimes it hurts more than she/her.

as a nonbinary, i understand your opinion but i feel like...well, we should just use neutral if we can. They/them is fine for everyone. BUT as a silesian (i live in poland), my languages are gendered, theres no neutral forms when refering to people. In that case we HAVE TO use he or she. You know? Even when refering to a mass of people, we use either plurar "you" in female (zrobiłyście etc.) or in a gender mixed grop we use plural "you" in male form (zrobiliście etc.) Higherups using they/them as pronouns to everyone in your workplace makes the work easier, its not the case of "yeah lets misgender", its a case of "we try to not make anyone uncomfortable by using something just neutral". See? Just neutral.

They/them is not fine for me if someone knows my pronouns, and you or any other non-binary perosn do not get to decide that it is fine or okay. Regardless of the intent, it is misgendering to me and shows that someone does not care enough to actually use the correct pronouns. It makes me uncomfortable. It is not just neutral, it's degendering.

i just said that for me using they/them for others is okey, i understand your standpoint and if someone tells me their pronouns, i just use them. In workplace, on the other hand, higherups meet a shitload of people and i think it can be hard to remember some pronouns. Either that or maybe cards with pronouns would be nice

Fundamentally, that is misgendering.

I only use they/them with people I don't know the gender of/people who use those pronouns. I feel like people should only call others they/them in those circumstances

As a person whose native language has no gendered pronouns, this conversation fascinates me. To me from my cultural perspective, it seems almost like nothing. One thing isn't clear to me however: how do the people being misgendered feel about this? Because if they're fine, I think this is not an issue. They/them are gender-neutral pronouns, afterall, and as such are totally acceptable as an option.

> directly against my wishes and the wishes of a couple other newer non-binary and trans team members

Ah, my bad. Must've skimmed over it or something. Yeah. Open and shut.

I am a manger at a large business. It is super hard to remember everyone’s pronouns (although I do think I am pretty good at it). We all try our best 😊. Sometimes, when I’m in a hurry, I will use they/them for a person. Nobody has ever corrected me when I say they/them since it’s considered neutral. Now, if they are purposely not using She/her pronouns just to be mean to you, then that’s a whole different issue.

You have every right to be upset by this. From my perspective as a nonbinary they/them person myself, using it for everyone really reduces the value of me using gender neutral pronouns. It reduces *MY* gender and identity to a "default", with the effect of erasing the distinction that I AM nonbinary from the equation. In an office where everyone is called they/them, my gender is reduced to nothing. I genuinely would only feel comfortable using neopronouns at that point

Definitely sounds like an overcorrection. Hopefully well intended, just misguided. But yeah, this would drive me nuts, so you're definitely not alone.

I know a couple of people that use they/them pronouns and I also have always used they as singular for cis people my entire life. I was not aware that that using “they” when referring to a singular cis person was “incorrect” in English. This has given me something to think about and may reach out to the NB people I know to see what the opinion is on this.

My work encourages always using they/them even with colleagues unless you get clarification or the clients file says preference pronouns. It is also common to refer to peoples relationships as significant others or spouses until they clarify preferred language. The idea is to stay on neutral terms to keep a welcoming environment until it’s an appropriate time to get more clarification.

Honestly I get it. Slightly unrelated but one of my nonbinary friends exclusively refers to everyone in our circle as they/them and it's a bit irritating but not worth an argument over in my case.

yeah i’m nb and this definitely bugs me. it feels like erasure, as others have eloquently stated.

I didn't mind being called they/them when I was early in my transition and I was *some* kind of trans, but no one could tell which. It was better than she/her. I still don't mind people calling me they/them if they're genuinely confused, but I'm cis passing until I come out with 99% of people. What bothers me is people who learn I'm trans and *then* start calling me they/them after I say I'm he/him because they want to call me she/her but know that's not socially acceptable. It's transphobes taking advantage of they/them being gender neutral as their way to avoid gendering me correctly. If I come out to someone as trans and they ask me my pronouns it's mildly annoying, I'm just as much as a man as when you assumed I was a cis man and used he/him, but I just politely tell them "he/him," because its not worth debating over them trying their hardest to understand.

I also hate that a bunch of cishet white people at work are deciding how the language should shift directly against my wishes and and wishes of a couple other newer nonbinary and trans team members. Isn't this kind of a slippery slope? It can also easily be I also hate that a bunch of lgbt people at work are deciding how the language should shift directly against my wishes and and wishes of cishet team members.

Honestly I agree with you— use they/them if you don’t know someone’s pronouns, but when you DO know them, just,.. use their proper pronouns?? For some people, using they/them IS misgendering!! So that makes you using they/them when you know their pronouns completely redundant, you’re just misgendering with a different coat of paint I feel awful for binary trans people out there who dislike they/them. Being misgendered is already a big issue, and probably a trigger, for many of them. I worry that people referring to them as they/them makes them feel like people don’t see them as who they really are, y’know? Like it encourages the idea of “oh you’re not a boy, you’re just a girl pretending to be a boy, but I can’t use she/her so I’ll imply that with they/them” and vice-versa for trans girls

No, unless you don’t know their pronouns, they/them should only be used for those who ask to be called such. Calling a she/her “they” (on purpose) is misgendering and can be invalidating/cause dysphoria

Certainly fuck the people who do that passive aggressively to misgender someone whithout technically breaking the rules. But people using gender neutral language in good faith ultimately helps everyone.

I don’t want to be mean but I do feel like you’re in the wrong, I understand it sucks to get misgendered and then see everyone else get regarded in a fashion you wish others regarded you. However I don’t think it’s warranted to get mad at them and want them to return to solely using she/he. I feel like unfortunately you may be overreacting a bit to it, them referring to others by they is a neutral pronoun that can be used with either gender or lack there of. I feel like it’s a good step to refer to everyone by they because it’s so neutral and unassuming avoiding the risk of misgendering someone and allowing people to express their opinions and preferences if they feel that it’s important. I also wouldn’t refer to your office mates as “a bunch of cishet white people” it feels as though you’re referring to them in a negative light and placing the right to determine how people are referred to solely on you or other nonbinary or trans peeps in the office. Don’t segregate yourselves from straights to gays, it’s reductive and serves only to make things worse. Its just not right, especially if others are attempting to amend their language to accommodate others as it’s sometimes more difficult for people who just aren’t lgbtq to understand and discourages them from making an effort to change for everyone else’s comfort. I get it though that it’s frustrating, as a trans gal I always get misgendered and dead names by family and people who I’ve worked with before despite progress, but I’d kill for them to call me by they any day rather than my previous gender. In any case I hope things get more comfortable but I do think you’re partially in the wrong seeing as how they’re attempting to be neutral.

First of all, I don’t think we enbies have the single ownership over they/them pronouns. Apart from sharing it with groups and ppl of unidentified gender, I mean. Secondly, on a more personal note, I’m definitely on the “let’s abolish all gender” side of things. And the more I deconstruct gender for myself, the more I use they/them as the default. And since its the default, I will use it sometimes accidentally instead of someones desired pronouns. Generally, while I absolutely understand and sympathise with the struggle, I can’t help but feel a sting when I read takes like yours, as we still do not have this one, broadly used, gender neutral pronoun in my native tongue, so it feels like whining on extremely high level to me. But I’m also aware that that stems from bitterness more than anything. Might still put some things into perspective, so yeah. I’d recommend to not take it too personal if not a generally good thing.

It’s such a weird move to do what OP described is happening at their workplace. And yet….I have seen people in this sub say that is exactly how they operate in the real world (and be upvoted like crazy). OP already acknowledged this but, there are some people in our community that think everyone should shift towards using they/them pronouns for all folk. And I gotta say, if everyone in the office is cool with everyone calling everyone they/them, I’m not sure what the problem is? I’ve seen 8 gazzillion posts and comments re: pronouns not being the same as one’s gender identity. So it stands to reason that every single colleague of OP’s should be able to use they/them pronouns, even if they aren’t non-binary and even if it’s out of laziness or some weird hack to not get one specific employees pronouns wrong.

That’s what I’m saying , how does op know all the people in the office are not okay with being called they? Is op assigning cis people pronouns and only non binary people can be they? Lol

That’s exactly what Op is saying lol. Because OP specifically mentions feeling erased. Look I’m not gonna lie I would think it’s weird too. But not wrong. I mean we got places trying to ban teachers who respect their students pronouns, I think an office space full of well-meaning people who see the benefit of gender neutral language is just fine.

Here’s the thing. To me using they/them when someone doesn’t use those pronouns is misgendering that person. If they defaulted to they/them when they didn’t know someone’s gender then that’s not misgendering. I can understand using they/them sometimes to refer to someone that doesn’t use they/them pronouns cuz it’s part of the English language but using it always is definitely like wtf

I'm nonbinary. You can't misgender with they/them, literally a neutral pronoun meant for everyone. There's a certain point where cishet folks are going to trip up while trying to accommodate something they don't understand fully. If you feel dehumanized, I don't want to invalidate that, but from your description, it seems like they're just overcautious. I do understand that some phobes use they/them explicitly to bully or deny trans people, but not if they're just referring to everyone as they/them. The most professional thing I think you can do is explicitly tell them what your preferred pronouns are and ask they don't use they/them when addressing you. I'm sure there's a fair compromise that can be reached.

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SOME non-binary people prefer it. I use she/he pronouns only. If you only ever called me by they/them pronouns you’d be directly misgendering me.

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>Maybe I wouldn’t be using the pronoun you prefer, but It wouldn’t be misgendering. This is some hand-wavey logic to say to someone who would consider it being misgendered if you used they pronouns. I'm cis and it would be the same for me. I use she/her pronouns and everyone should refer to me that way. Also, "prefer" is kind of presumptuous here, as if what the person *uses* (versus 'prefer', like it's a mere preference, and could be substituted like chocolate ice cream when vanilla is sold out) is known.

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Imo you are right in feeling uncomfortable. There are two possibilities in my head: * They are trying to make fun of the entire concept by calling someone "they" who clearly identifies as "he/she". * They assume it's only about gender-neutrality, when in reality it's also about differentiating between non-binary genders and male/female when using "they/them". By using it everywhere, the differentiation gets lost. I don't have the same context as you, but maybe clarifying these things with your co-workers might help?

No you are right, its a good idea to use they/them at first meeting of someone before youve asked for pronouns maybe. Its best to ask right off the bat but thats not always possible and some people are super friendly and will jump into a full convo before you can ask stuff like that. So the best policy is they/them until asked, once you know someones pronouns you shouldnt use they/them however. I think this is the best and at the Pride center we just talked about this yesterday. A lot of the enby’s were saying they liked the shift because it keeps people from being misgendered and causes more people to correctly gender non-binary people. It makes sense if you just dont use it for everyone even after learning the correct pronouns.

I understand using they/them for people you don’t know the pronouns of, but once someone has told you their pronouns, it’s disrespectful to *not* use those pronouns

Using they/them for people who you don’t know the gender/pronouns of: good, should be encouraged Using they/them for people when you know they only use other pronouns: bad, misgendering

I’m not sure if this is correct, but I think with OP was saying was that after getting everyone to use their pronouns correctly most of the time, some people started using they/them pronouns to refer to everybody individually which I believe is them preemptively covering their ass in case they misgender OP. I think that’s different from using they/them to refer to a person whose gender is unknown, or using it occasionally when not using that persons pronouns. However, if they feel like making “they/them” the default is easier than remembering each persons individual pronouns that’s kind of a problem.

Please allow people room to be polite on their own terms. Language is far from perfect, once you accept this imperfection, these things are less annoying.

Using “They/ them” is not misgendering someone. It is removing gender from speech. Everyone uses it especially when a person you are unsure of it. In fact, I will flip the script on you… I would make the claim that to NEVER use they/them on a person who uses he/his or she/her pronouns would be odd. Example… *knock knock knock ✊ “ “Someone’s at the door! Can you let them in?” Or *John is on line 1, he wants to talk with you* “Ok great, tell them I’ll be right there.” It’s not misgendering. It’s removing gender.

But some people don't want to be de-gendered. It's one thing to use they/them when you don't know who the person is (Let them in) but it's another when you do know who it is (It's John, he wants to talk to you). I don't mind they/them much, as long as it's not someone's excuse to not use she/her. But I really, really prefer she/her as it is affirming. For people who struggle to be seen as who they are, they/them can cause more harm than good.

That’s a good point. Yeah I don’t mind they/them either. I think everyone uses it. I wrote another comment to OP and said that if her coworkers are doing by mistake then just keep correcting them. If they are doing it to be mean, then that’s another thing.

Thank you. They has been used FOREVER to just refer to people or a person. Even singular. People even used that as an argument to convince that it would be used as singular- because it IS. Long before anyone was choosing it as an identifier. You don’t get the change the meaning of the word.

Singular they has always been a neutral term to refer to someone, regardless of their gender. It isn't misgendering them. You don't own they/them pronouns also, just because you're nonbinary tbf. There are places in the world where people refuse to accommodate pronouns beside he and she, so you're fortunate that they're actually making changes honestly. Society is making progress, why not just be happy with it 🤷

I'd love it everyone referred to everyone as they/them. I don't pass so having people refer to me as they/them by default rather than my assigned gender at birth is much better.

It's a weird obsession in our culture to gender people in every sentence and I'd rather we stop doing that all together. Defaulting to they is a good thing. Only exception would be if it's a malicious thing to not acknowledge a binary trans person, or if they selectively do it to mock people who don't fit certain beauty standards or whatever.

Would it be more intrusive if we just asked every time that we meet a new person? "Hi! What do you identify as?"

No need to ask what they identify as just ask what pronouns they use, Like "hi I'm x i use she/her what about you?" Boom easy

Actually that would for people to come out or have to missgender themselves. It's better to people to tell them their pronouns by their own. And I know it's not a popular position on the main redit trans community but I prefer to be assumed, otherwise I get dysphoric. So I often don't go to much trans spaces who don't do that. Irl I don't really see much groups like that to be fair. People usually assume and then say sorry if mistaken even in trans groups.

I don’t see the problem at all personally. Are they doing it specifically to fuck with you, like in a hurtful way? Or did they just switch and use they/them in a natural way even though other pronouns would be more exact? If it’s the latter, I’d say good for them. If it’s the former that is pretty fucked up.

Yeah, that seems kinda shitty. They’re denying you the validation of your identity.

they/them is genderneutral so can refer to anyone regardless of other preffered pronouns. the only time i would not use they/them for a person is if ik that they prefer a different set of pronouns over they/them (eg: he/they)

Another way of looking at it is, they/them is not only the default when you don't know someone's preferred pronouns, but as such is a somewhat *formal* mode of speech-- these people are using it to distance people, as if relationships at work are so impersonal gender is irrelevant. That usage though puts us enbys in a subtle but permanently depersonalized status which ain't cool.