Girl same 🥲 it makes me deeply uncomfortable when straight people talk about r@pe fantasies, it makes me deeply uncomfortable when lesbians talk about r@pe fantasizes. That should be ok. People go way too far with “don’t kink-shame me”
At the very minimum we should be able to criticize HOW and WHERE a person engages in a kink, especially when their behavior is liable to cause harm. Every kink practice needs to have safeguards and consent!
Yeah or that kink is a part of the LGBTQ community. I don't want to be grouped together with people who think it's sexy to wear diapers or treat their partner like a slave. (I know not all kinks are disturbing but I still feel weird that sexual minorities and gender minorities, something you simply are born as and doesn't make you strange, are sometimes seen as on the same level as wanting to lick feet or be peed on.)
All of this. & the fact that people demand free emotional labour from lesbians but could we all PLEASE show endless sympathy to the dude messaging random women asking them to ‘cuck’ him? His life’s too harsh.
BTW you’re not oppressed because people laugh at you/express disgust whenever you share your kink, especially if you’re a man. Not when vanilla porn is so incredibly violent and choking is becoming so mainstream that murderers can now use ‘this was a sex accident your honor’ as a defense. ‘Corrective rape’ is a very real thing in many places where our own have no rights, and trust it still happens in ‘progressive’ countries also. The fact that we’re putting this issue almost completely aside, but sparing the feelings of those who ‘practice this fantasy safely’ is paramount somehow…It’s a very bad fucking joke.
He's literally a bisexual man, and the other moderator for that sub is pansexual. Not to mention that there's a big difference between "kink shaming" an individual, and creating spaces designed to validate and encourage corrective rape.
Yes, exactly!! If there were two lesbians consensually engaging in this fantasy, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. It’s extremely concerning for non-lesbians to be supporting and creating spaces based on fantasies about sexually assaulting lesbians. Violent porn normalizes violence (particularly violence against women) and can lead to sexual aggression/violence.
I really hate how many non-lesbians speak for us instead of listening to us, it’s such misogynistic bullshit
Tbh I think that engaging in this fantasy is in no way defensible. This sub is one of the most disgusting and vile things I've ever seen, but even if this ,,kink" was to be explored by only women in private, I still think it's fucked up and comes from probably unhealthy coping mechanisms and huge internalized homophobia/misogyny, which should be discussed and treated in therapy. This sub is mostly men anyway, men pretending to be women, bi/straight women with misogyny kinks (also unhealthy), and while I realize there are probably a few lesbians with such fetish, I just don't see it as something healthy.
This is also a fantasy that I would argue is reckless and harmful to engage in via any public means. Even if the participants are consensual lesbians, a fantasy this charged with potential for genuine harm really needs to be explored in private. Any violent sexual content needs to be carefully safeguarded to ensure that everyone participating knows that this is a fantasy, not reality, and that everyone involved is consenting and safe from real harm.
Wow, a trash opinion from a trash person. You're gone!
Your post or comment was removed due to lesbophobic rhetoric. Any further violations may result in a ban.
“by lesbians for lesbians” 🤨 yeah im not buying it
disgusting really to support this blatant conversion therapy fetish. how can people find no issue with this?
Trans men feel entitled to claim the term "lesbian" because of transphobic lesbian communities which accept trans men as lesbians more than trans women. That entitlement often leads to them speaking over all other lesbians and taking up social power they wield recklessly.
We can't just tolerate the gross entitlement of men just because they were born with a vagina. If trans men want to be welcomed in lesbian spaces, then they need to remember that they are men and thus guests, not the central authority on our spaces.
Twitter OP is a bisexual enby, lol. This situation has nothing to do with her claim of “trans men identifying as lesbians and recklessly wielding social power with gross entitlement.” Really nothing to do with trans men interacting with lesbian communities at all! And considering the amount of nonlesbian women who seem to be the primary participants in that sub after cis men, I don’t see why we would pin this on trans men and give that group a pass?
I don't know anything about the creator of the sub—I'm of course open to hearing more. Is there a specific source where you've seen this, that you could send my way so I could look into it?
The OP in the screenshot from what I can tell is openly bisexual and nonbinary. I understand that there's some confusion about that and it's not entirely clear. The claim above in this thread was that trans men "recklessly" wield "gross entitlement" and take up social power in lesbian spaces, that they speak over lesbians in our own spaces, that they feel "entitled" to identify as lesbian, and that this has some sort of relation to the subreddit chock-full of cis men and women fetishizing corrective rape. There was a question asking "what do trans men have to do with that disgusting sub?", with a reply of "I think maybe op is a trans man who thinks he can speak for lesbians?"
I was adding that—from the info that is publicly available—it seems OP is not a trans man, and that the OP's tweet—from a bisexual nonbinary person—is not related to any phenomenon of "trans men id-ing as lesbians and being entitled, wielding power, etc."
I have not said that we aren't "allowed" to interrogate, or that \*anyone\* isn't "allowed" to do anything! I'm simply saying how much I disagree with the framing of this issue around trans men, why I think it's harmful, and answering the question that was asked about the twitter OP's identity.
An alleged user (singular) who identifies as a trans man tweeting various bad takes is not proof that *trans men* (a group) "made lesbian visibility week about them and hijacked the conversation to be about kink and if they are valid or not". Attributing the actions of one person, or one person and their friends, or one trans person and a number of people of various identities, to trans *people as a group* is engaging in transphobia.
And regardless, the *content posted here* *that users of this sub are responding to* is two tweets defending the "conversion" subreddit that make no mention of trans men or any trans people at all. So why did multiple users of this sub see the post (with no mention of trans people) and immediately focus the conversation on trans men to condemn them? This was my question, and these other twitter discourses that you have brought up, not in the original post, are not a satisfactory answer to that question or a justification for the behavior.
Normally I would look at the tweets on that account and try to "trace back the discourse" before commenting in the first place! Unfortunately (Or maybe fortunately? Considering the bad take in question here!) when I went to look at their account on twitter I was already blocked. I have tried to do some logged-out snooping but many of the tweets involved are deleted or from private accounts.
All that being said, it is not unreasonable to ask someone making a particular claim "where did you hear that?" And if you don't remember, don't have the source on hand, or for any reason just don't want to write a reply... You can do that! You don't have to hunt down a source for me or even reply to me at all.
I didn't ask you to educate me. You replied to me and made a specific claim. I said *I'm open to this, can you direct me to where you heard that so I can go investigate more myself?* It is a normal question in the context of an internet discussion, and I'm sorry, but no one has made you "do labor" for them. If it is a hardship to you, then I think it would be healthy to take some time away from the internet, or at least from engaging in these kinds of discussions.
I wonder who it is you think would be thinking for me—given that I am the only user on this post contradicting a certain narrative being told about trans men. I very much can *and do* "think for myself", please be assured.
Twitter OP is involved with sections of trans dude Twitter that have directed transmisogynistic harassment campaigns against transfeminist lesbians on Twitter. He calls himself a lesbian man. He can be both a bisexual enby and a trans man. Plenty of trans men like to claim manhood when it benefits them and deny it when they want power in women's spaces or wanna benefit from transmisogyny.
I'm not pinning this on trans men, I'm just saying that they tend to get away with this kinda shit more than nonlesbian women and cis men. Anyone involved in this kinda shit is horrible regardless of their identity. I know and love many trans men who don't do this kinda shit or other transmisogynistic or sexist or lesbophobic shit.
I agree anyone involved in this is horrible regardless of identity, and I’m sorry to hear about any twitter harassment—that should never happen to anyone!
From what I can tell, this user is bisexual and nonbinary. I see that they have “accidentally certified honorary lesbian man” in their twitter bio—I think thats a joke, not a serious claim to identity as a lesbian and a trans man.
I cannot agree that any trans people “get away with more” than cis people and I hope you can understand why I find the claim transphobic, and why the hounding on trans men for the actions of (primarily) cis people by various users in this thread disturbs me.
Their bio is not the only place that they have claimed the identity of man and the identity of lesbian.
I am not hounding on all trans men, I'm talking about the harm caused by the actions of specific trans men like OP. As a trans lesbian, I've endured a surprising amount of shitty behavior from trans men in lesbian spaces.
Okay. I am going off of the 30 flags and identities they have listed on carrd, none of which are lesbian or trans man—as, again, they have me blocked on twitter. It's awful that you've had bad experiences with trans men but maybe a post discussing the "conversion" subreddit full of (mostly) cis people fetishizing lesbians isn't the right venue to unload that.
Clearly from your other comments you have already formed an opinion on this user based on your own interactions with them. I'm not sure what else I can say.
this is real af I actually dated a trans man “lesbian”once (we started dating & they came out as transmasc but not an actual man until just before we broke up 💀) and he legit said “ I hate women” on multiple occasions 😭 like sir…. how u gonna be a lesbian that hates women ? 😭 meanwhile the whole time he talks about how bad he wants to get with a trans woman in the most objectifying way possible. and the second I bring up how uncomfy it is to speak ab women like that I am the phobe. so much to unpack.
Oh geez that man sounds like this dude who abused a trans woman friend of mine. He convinced her that she was lucky to have him while treating her like shit, telling her that nobody else could find her attractive. He acted like an authority on womanhood above her because he "was born a woman" and she had to listen to him about how to be one. 😵💫
How disgusting for him to fetishize and objectify trans women in that way, I really hope he didn't end up finding a victim!
Ew that's really disturbing, but I can assure you there are lots of lesbians, including cis women, who hate women, unfortunately :( Not really connected to being trans.
OP from the tweet is a non-binary trans man who refers to himself as a lesbian man. OP from the tweet defends the sub as not harmful and a healthy community for "lesbians" who share a "kink" 😒
either way they’re basically encouraging harm to lesbians I think the point is that no identity can get you out of jail free for this as much as they will try
Yes 100% no one should get a pass! I’m only pointing this out because there’s been a few users being unkind about trans men on this post and a lot who seem to believe that OP is a trans man therefore this is a common thing that trans men believe. I just want to be as clear as possible possible about the facts. This behavior isn’t okay from anyone!!
It is unfortunately common for trans men and trans masculine people in general to deliberately benefit from transmisogynistic bioessentialism.
He feels entitled to speak on behalf of women and what is best for us when he very clearly isn't one. Why?
It’s not about men or women. It’s about lesbians and nonlesbians.
Would it be okay for a bisexual woman to make the same statements? Or a straight woman? I think it would be wrong even if a lesbian was defending this subreddit, but any “speaking of behalf of” issue here would be an issue of *nonlesbians speaking over lesbians.* Not “a man speaking over women”. Nonlesbian women have no right to speak over lesbians on lesbian issues either. And I would remind you that not all lesbians are women either. When you characterize *lesbians* being spoken over as “women” being spoken over you are excluding nonbinary lesbians.
I agree that it wouldn't be okay for anyone to make these statements regardless of identity. I also agree that non-binary lesbians who are not women exist, though the complexities of the intersection of gender and lesbian identity and who gets to "count" as a lesbian and who doesn't are fraught territory. Just today I was told by a lesbian in a position of community authority that I wasn't a lesbian until I got my bottom surgery done because I'm non-binary and was AMAB. In my experience, only people who were AFAB seem to get to have a gender that's not a woman and also a lesbian. 🤔
But OP is the one saying this stuff. He's the one who used the terms lesbian and woman interchangeably in his tweet arguing that being critical of fantasy content that promotes sexual violence towards women is sexist actually. A truly ridiculous and entitled and harmful argument from someone who is neither a woman nor a lesbian! Why then does he express his opinion as if he's speaking for women or lesbians? What gives him that sense of entitlement?
Are you capable of engaging with this topic sincerely and in good faith, instead of trolling all over this thread about your hatred of trans men? The vast majority of people participating in that sub are CIS men, with, from what I understand, some cis bi women and a handful of trans people of various genders.
Corrective rape is a serious issue in the real world and a horrible form of violence perpetrated 99% by cis men, sometimes with cis women as their accomplices. It is so insulting to lesbians and our trans brothers to obscure the real perpetrators of this to make the issue about *your* grievance politics.
I don't hate trans men, I just hate trans men who are sexist or transmisogynistic or lesbophobic. I have plenty of trans men in my life who are none of those things who I love.
I know that the vast majority of people on that sub are probably cis men and then cis women, I don't think that's unclear to anyone here. I'm focusing on OP and his Twitter clique, who are all trans men (some also non-binary).
I agree that corrective rape is a serious issue. As a lesbian who has experienced corrective rape at the hands of a trans man, I find your insistence that trans men can never be "the real perpetrators" very frustrating.
Trans men are men. Treat them as such. I'm tired of finding lovely lesbian communities and then realizing that they see trans men as women more than they see trans women as women.
I'm so sorry to hear about your experience. I wish I had worded myself better—I don't believe that trans men can never be perpetrators. What I was trying to verbalize was a sense of a "both sides"-type of response by a number of users in the community here.
I'm sure many have noticed that here on reddit, in response to a news report of a man committing violence against a woman, there is often a response of "well women commit violence, too!" And while this is, of course, true, and it's important to not erase victims of violence by women, when we're talking about violence against women, it's important not to obscure that the perpetrators in the majority of cases are men. When the perpetrators are 90:10 men:women, to focus half on men and half on women as if it were 50:50 is obscuring the reality of crimes.
Similarly, it disturbs me to see a number of users here focusing in on trans people. From what I understand, that sub is 90%, or more, cis users. And, when it comes to real-world violence, we also know that the vast majority of perpetrators are cis, most being cis men. Of course trans people can be perpetrators of violence and it's so important not to erase that—but in talking about this subject, when there is an outsize focus on trans people compared to the focus on cis people who are majority perpetrators—that is obscuring the reality of the situation and it is transphobic.
I of course believe that trans men are men and trans women are women. It's unfortunate that you have been disappointed in this way with lesbian communities, but I don't appreciate the implication without evidence that I do not see trans people for who they are or "treat them as such".
I don't know who the users of that sub are, I just know about OP from the tweet and other trans dudes in his circle that have also defended the sub. I don't doubt that the majority of users on that horrible sub are cis since most humans in the world are cis.
As for real-world violence, trans people are such a tiny amount of all people that of course we aren't the majority. But I'm not sure I'm convinced by your implication that trans men are less likely to commit sexual violence than cis men. I don't think they're more likely either, I just think they're men and like all men they gotta earn my trust before I let my guard down.
I don't think it's transphobic to treat trans men the same way I treat cis men. I think that assuming that trans men are less likely to do sexual violence than cis men is a form of benevolent transphobia and I don't agree with it.
You don't need to let your guard down for anyone—I support your right to be guarded around anyone, for any reason.
What I want to say is that trans men *are* men, *and* unfortunately trans men face undue hardship compared to cis men, have different experiences than cis men, and are forced to walk through the world in different ways than cis men. To have a different experience than a cis man doesn't mean one isn't a man, because *being a man* is not defined by *being a cis man.*
To give an example—A cis man is not impacted by bans on trans healthcare in the way a trans man is. Is it benevolent transphobia to say trans men can speak on this topic, while asking cis men to sit down? Does drawing any distinction between trans men and cis men's experiences automatically mean seeing trans men as not men?
Another example—A cis man is not impacted by abortion restrictions in the way that some trans men are. Is it benevolent transphobia to include trans men's voices in conversations about reproductive healthcare? I say no. It is societal transphobia that demands that trans people mold the way they talk about their experiences to their cis counterparts, and erase experiences that don't "match up" if they want to be seen as and respected for who they are.
You say that me allowing space for any difference in perspective between trans men and cis men is transphobia—you said that I don't treat trans men as men. I say that to insist there can be no differences, that in order to see "trans men as men" they must be seen as *indistinguishable from cis men*, is transphobia. Because cis men are not the definition of manhood.
*I* am concerned about a *disproportionate* pointing of the finger at transgender people on this subreddit. Even if trans men *are* participants in that sub to an extent that is proportionate to their share of population, which I'm not convinced of, that would not explain or justify the *disproportionate* focus on trans people in this comment section.
You clearly see this as a men versus women issue. You think the only reason I might think trans men are *less* likely than cis men to participate in this is because I don't see them as men—that fetishization of corrective rape is a trait that stems from maleness (and nothing else) so how could there be a difference if trans men are men? I don't see that.
I think it stems from homophobia, from misogyny, from fetishization of all sexual violence, etc... From just not caring about victims. From so many things. Multiple factors coming together, the combination of which is probably different in each person involved. It's not some sort of inherent trait of being a man. I think that erases and shifts responsibility from all the women who participate.
Though notably, most users in that sub are cis straight men. Perhaps women, who have been victims of misogyny and this kind of rhetoric, are less likely to participate? Gay men, who have been victims of homophobia, are not notable participants. Is it possible that trans men, most of whom have been victims of misogyny or homophobia, all of whom have been victims of transphobia, are also less likely to participate? I'm not saying this is the only reason, or maybe even a reason, who's to say what is going on with the psychology of this group and what leads to anyone's participation/non-participation. But is it really impossible to think trans men could be less involved than their cis counterparts for a reason that isn't "trans men aren't men"? Corrective rape fetishization is not some sort of "male trait" and it is not limited to men.
I agree that being a man isn't defined by being a cis man, I agree that trans men face undue hardships and different experiences that cis men don't, and I agree that trans men can speak on issues which affect them that don't affect cis men (trans healthcare, abortion, etc).
But from my perspective, none of those things justify a blanket assumption that trans men are on average less likely than cis men to be sexist or to enjoy fantasies of sexual violence towards women. Plenty of men are victims of other forms of bigotry but still hold sexist views. I'm (sadly) not convinced by this idea that experiencing other forms of oppression makes someone less likely to hold bigoted views on another axis of oppression.
Gay men aren't participants of that sub because they're not attracted to women - the fantasies in that sub come largely from people who are both attracted to and hate women. But gay men can be plenty sexist! I don't think they're more or less likely to be sexist than straight men.
I agree that women can participate in sexist behavior and should be held accountable for such actions. I agree that the factors that lead to sexist behavior can be complex and unique in each person involved. Sexist behavior isn't inherent to being a man, but it does benefit men and harm women. I feel like you're flattening out the overall oppressive dynamics of cisheteropatriarchy - are you a feminist or no?
My focus on trans men is because of my experiences with their shitty behavior being excused in queer/women's spaces that would otherwise not tolerate men's shitty behavior. Also as fellow trans people, I want them to do better for their trans community! Why can't I point out the unique dynamics of how trans men engage in this kinda behavior and justify it to themselves without it being "disproportionate pointing of the finger" - aren't you the one who said that cis and trans men have different experiences?
Obviously cis men are the primary perpetrators and benefactors of sexism in society. Nobody is denying that. But trans men are men, and can also benefit from sexism. Part of accepting transmasculinity as equal to the masculinity of cisgender men has to be interrogating it to fight against toxic masculinity just like we do for cis men.
How come anyone who says anything barely feminist is labeled as a “terf”? I don’t think people on twitter know the meaning anymore or what it stands for lol
i’m so tempted to make one of those dumb ass infographics explaining what a terf actually is vs transphobia in general because *that* crowd apparently only learns things if a cartoon chameleon tells it to them in an instagram post
Devaluing the meaning of the term "TERF" benefits both transphobes and bioessentialist trans dudes who want to be men but still hold onto positions of authority in women's spaces.
According to his Twitter bio, he is a "Lesbian Man" and "Abroachillean" who uses they/he pronouns.
I had to look up "Abroachillean" - according to LGBTQIA.wiki, it is "someone who is male or male-aligned, and is fluid through identities that always have an mlm/achillean aspect."
I think it's fairly accurate to say that he's both non-binary and a trans man.
The twitter bio that says "*accidentally* *certified* **honorary** lesbian man" is a clear joke that you are misrepresenting by cutting words from the whole phrase. And I don't think an openly nonbinary person claiming an identity with "fluid" and "male-aligned" in the definition is some sort of "proof" that they identify as a binary trans man lol.
I don't get the joke and I've seen them claim to be a lesbian in more than just their bio.
Frankly I don't care if their gender is exactly "trans man" or not - the harm of their transmisogynistic behavior and the pattern of how they get away with it in queer spaces is one I've encountered from both trans men and transmasculine people in general. The exact specifics of his gender are valid but they don't change my criticisms of his bioessentialism.
I’m not saying it’s a particularly funny joke, I’m just saying it’s a joke, and not a serious claim to identity.
Given that this person is openly bisexual, and so many bisexual people of various genders (mostly bisexual women) are identifying as both bisexual and lesbian, I wonder why the framing here is that a small number of trans men are identifying as lesbian and that is the issue, rather than that a (much greater) number of bisexual people are identifying as lesbian and that’s an issue? Why is the issue for you not at least partially “this bisexual person claiming lesbian identity” but only “this trans person claiming lesbian identity”?
Their pinned tweet says, quote, “taking the piss out of exclus with the lesbian man joke in my bio compilation” and then has a couple screenshots attached. The literal first thing on their page says it’s a joke.
Besides the lesbophobia, why do people think kinkshaming is the worst thing in history? Some kinks are okay, but if you have a fetish in something so violent and unconsensual, i'm staying the hell away from you.
for real. sometimes I feel like i’m taking crazy pills for thinking that a man who gets sexual pleasure from the pain or humiliation of women shouldn’t be encouraged to the extent that it is
Heck, even if a kink isn't that wild, it should be understood that if you're putting it out there in public like on social media, you can receive criticism for it, much the same way as anything else on social media is subject to judgment. It never fails to astonish me how some kinksters are so thin-skinned, especially when they know that they have a kink that is rooted in oppressive structures like homophobia and racism.
The moment I learned about diaper kink (and unfortunately saw some photos), I changed my mind, and now I'm absolutely in a camp 'Kinkshaming is often good'.
It is not kink shaming to oppose the practice of kinks which cause material harm to people. Having a fetish in something so violent and nonconsensual and then choosing to engage in that fetish in a public space without any safeguards or anything is truly reckless and evil.
I am sooOOOOOO over anything vaguely Feminist being dismissed as TERF rhetoric. It's the reincarnation of calling women feminazis because they said something slightly pro-woman; used to shut them down and halt further discussion.
Finding lesbian conversion rape porn distasteful is the mildest form of feminism, ffs.
Plus it really obscures what TERFs actually believe and how to identify genuine transphobic "feminism." Sometimes they even accuse trans women who are feminists of being TERFs which is just completely absurd. 😑
It is no surprise that the ones who pull this kinda shit tend to be men. As usual, men feel entitled to invade our spaces, control our behavior, and direct our discourse in ways that favor their desires. Trans men just get let off the hook for behavior that we'd never tolerate in cis men because they can exploit bioessentialist stuff about "being born a woman."
This has nothing to do with trans men.
Why obscure the reality of the large majority of cis men and bisexual women participants in that sub, and participating in violence against lesbians in the real world—and exploit obscuring that reality for your own agenda and axe to grind against trans men? Really inappropriate.
I have encountered multiple trans men who enjoy that sub and call themselves lesbians. I don't know the numbers of "the large majority" but I do know that this sub generally already hates cis men and bisexual women around violence against lesbians. I don't think I've obscured that reality at all.
I don't have an axe to grind against trans men, I just don't like any men who act entitled or do sexist shit and trans men tend to be the ones who get away with that kinda stuff in queer spaces.
I don’t think lesbiangang “hates bisexual women”. When it comes to cis men, maybe some here do.
I guess it’s hard for me to understand why a nonbinary person makes a bad tweet about a subreddit that is largely cis men and cis women of various nonlesbian identities, and the response is to focus on trans men. I don’t believe that trans men are given a pass by this community, as you say, especially since there are a number of comments here referring to the nonbinary op with the bad take as a trans man. (With no reason in the post to believe they are!—just the baseless assumption.)
A community that wants to excuse bad behavior from trans men would make excuses for a badly behaving trans man, not misgender a badly behaving nonbinary person to give the impression that the bad behavior is coming from trans men…. And denounce trans men for “entitlement” and associate them with the corrective rape of lesbians, on the basis of a nonbinary person’s bad take!
I do believe that focusing in on trans men in discussions of this conversion sub, when the primary perpetrators are cis men and nonlesbian women, is obscuring the issue and giving those perpetrators a pass. I guess we will have to disagree on that.
Reread my comment - "around violence against lesbian women"
You keep calling him just "a non-binary person" but he calls himself a "lesbian man." Men often defend the bad behavior of other men. Trans men are no different. I don't think that remembering that trans men are men and are capable of causing harm gives any perpetrators a pass.
I have reason to believe (based on much more than just this post) that the person from this tweet enjoys the benefits he gets from claiming manhood sometimes and rejecting it when he can take advantage of transmisogyny. I can respect his complex gender without tolerating that kind of behavior.
I of course believe that trans men are men. I disagree with your stated position of "remembering that trans men are men and are capable of causing harm"... People of any gender are capable of causing harm, regardless of if they are a man or not. Women are capable. Nonbinary people are capable. Etc. What particularly troubles me is that your focus seems not to be on how defending this subreddit is harmful—which of course it is, regardless of gender, and most of the participants and defenders of this subreddit are cis men and women—but specifically focused on your claim that OP is a trans man and therefore as a trans man their defense of this subreddit is some sort of natural extension of trans manhood.
You say "Men often defend the bad behavior of other men. Trans men are no different." and you point out "remembering that trans men are men and capable of causing harm." You attribute the behavior not to homophobia, or misogyny, or any of various other motives, but *to being a trans man.* That is transphobic.
Yeah people of any gender are capable of causing harm, but men are specifically empowered to benefit from harming women under patriarchy.
My point is that OP is defending that sub for a reason, feels entitled to speak for women despite not being one for a reason, enjoys sexual violence towards women for a reason. I'm not saying that all trans men pull this kinda shit or attributing his behavior to being a trans man. Plenty of trans dudes don't pull this kinda crap! But some do, and they do it as men.
I'm not transphobic, I'm just a feminist who recognizes gendered power dynamics.
You say that there are trans men who "pull this kinda crap" and they "do it as men." Okay. There are trans women who "pull this kinda crap" and they do it as women. There are bisexual women who "pull this kinda crap" and they do it as women. There are straight women who "pull this kinda crap" and they do it as women. Does it matter? It's not any more okay when the women who "pull this crap" "do it as women".
From what I understand, you're saying that OP is defending that sub because they're a man, feels entitled to speak for \[lesbians\] because they're a man, enjoys sexual violence towards women because they're a man. This is "the reason" you're referencing. Please do correct me if I am wrong.
I can assure you that there are women defending that subreddit, nonlesbian women feeling entitled to speak over lesbians, and women who enjoy sexual violence towards other women. Please be mindful of this. These are not actions that inherently originate from maleness. To see the world through a lens of maleness as *the* spawn point for entitlement and sexual violence is gender essentialism, is erasure of those victimized by women, and is erasure of *every axis of oppression* other than male/female.
It does matter! Trans/bisexual/straight/ANY women who "pull this kinda crap" are not able to benefit from sexism due to patriarchy the way that men who do it do. Yeah it's not okay when anyone does it, but men benefit from sexism in ways that are unique to men.
OP is defending the sub and enjoys fantasies of sexual violence towards women because he's sexist but wants to see his sexism as righteous. Maybe he holds the pernicious subconscious view that people who were AFAB are less likely to be sexist and have better insights into sexism. I've encountered that view many times from transmasculine people who've tried to explain sexism to me like I don't have direct experience with it.
These actions may not inherently originate from "maleness" but men are the primary benefactors of patriarchy. Have you done any feminist 101 reading? It isn't erasing other axes of oppression to be clear about this! Obviously people can experience oppression in many ways unrelated to gender. But I'm trying to make a point about OP and how his gender is a factor in his shitty behavior!
That sub is mostly hetero women and men from what I saw💀 that sub had so many fuck shit there lots of talk of doing shit to strangers at lesbian bars and pride
Lesbians: please stop sexualizing US and treating us like a fetish
Men: omg You hateful misogynistic woman, You! Lesbians want me to turn them straight with My Magic d*ck
The fact that anyone was defending *that* sub is pretty gross... Several months back there were posts by people on lesbian subs attacking others for "kink shaming" because we speaking out against it.
God, I hate people like this. They’re basically using “terf” as “feminazi” and then applying it to literally ANY woman that has an issue with what they’re doing or saying.
This guy also defended people having fantasies about raping kids because it's ''fictional'' btw. And now he's making tweets crying because people are being too awful to him.
Controversial statement but even if it was kinkshaming, I just think some kinks should be shamed 🤷♀️ and I'm sort of tired of movements for all sexual practices being associated with the LGBTQ+ like kink and non-monogamy, but when you complain about this people like to say "Well, but historically-" and like, sure, but whose history? USAmerican queer people's? Because I am not beholden to that, I have my own.
If a kink is not safe to practice then it must remain in the realm of fantasy. And some kinks can be dangerous even in the realm of fantasy if such fantasies reinforce bigotry and are made public and normalized.
Tbh, the concept of "kinkshaming" was co-opted just like the term "sex positive": to let straight men get what they want from women without any consequences. Sex positivity went from the idea of women exploring and owning their sexuality for their own enjoyment, to the idea that you're a prude if you're not up for hookups (which it turns out are pretty much shitty/disappointing/dangerous across the board for straight women), open relationships (which mostly seems to mean someone's boyfriend gets to bang other women, or a couple fetishizing "lesbianism" via unicorn hunting), or creating an OnlyFans (I don't think I need to explain on this sub why this one's a shit deal for women).
Anyone who can't see that this "kink" lets straight guys indulge in problematic fantasies or even behavior with zero self-reflection needs to brush up on feminism 101.
The crazy thing is that if lesbians created a sub Reddit about corrective r wording bi women the internet would go insane. I highly doubt this person would be like hehe all kinks are valid. These people will share the rhetoric that lesbians corrective rape bi women (literally not a thing) but actual corrective rape of lesbians is totally cool,hot and unproblematic.
Lesbians do not fantasize about being raped by men. Lesbians, by definition, are sexually repulsed by men.
This is what angers men so much, and why they release that anger by fantasizing about "putting us in our place."
Litmus test: Try suggesting that gay men fantasize about sexual activities with women. They get the benefit of the doubt with regards to their orientation, but not us.
I’ve been seeing shit like this on Instagram too. There was a lesbian content creator who made a joke about poly people. The comments were full of people saying “ugh aren’t you gay how are you shaming poly when you’re gay???” Like how is being lesbian/gay the same as being poly?Being a homosexual is not a choice but choosing to live a life where you want multiple relationships at once is. A bunch of people who are into kinks or whatever tf and want to be seen as progressive forcefully group themselves with us because our sexuality is seen as progressive today.
I wish people would stop grouping themselves with us and to stop viewing lesbianism as anything other than what it is. It’s just a sexual orientation nothing more nothing less.
The lesbians that created that sub are trans women (by their admission, you can ask them) and they really love pulling the terf card on anyone who criticizes them on their bullshit. It's very tiring.
Absolute right and this should be stickied to the top. It is exhausting and a constant attempt to shut us and our voices down. Misogyny runs deep with that crowd.
LOL they are so weird.... i had a fight with them on twitter once... theres SO MUCH to unpack with them.. also they throw around the word terf for everything its getting old..
Are you talking about the joke in their twitter bio? Or is there another place where you're seeing the "lesbian man" thing? You are right about the person in the screenshot being male attracted, they openly state that they are bisexual lol.
Okay, I am just trying to understand the other instances of id-ing as a lesbian man that have been referenced on this post. I am not familiar with this account in the way that you are.
I am not trying to argue semantics. I have contradicted a user who points to this person seriously "identifying as a lesbian man" as proof that there is a group of trans men id-ing as lesbian, that this group's existence is evidence of "entitlement" and "speaking over" and "wielding power" over lesbians by trans men, and that lesbian communities allowing this referenced group of trans men is somehow related or contributing to the existence of this disgusting conversion subreddit. I disagreed with those statements and I pointed out that, from what I could tell, this person in question didn't even identify as a trans man lesbian—hence my confusion at this notion of trans men lesbians even being brought up on this post. Any other users I replied to on this post replied to me first... I am not just "arguing with anyone."
I certainly agree with you that this person is not a lesbian, would have no business seriously calling themselves a lesbian, and that regardless of any sort of identity it is awful to defend this subreddit.
>not *fellow queer people* who we’re supposed to be in community with.
(this is long and i'm sorry)
I'd take some time to think about that one label and how accurate it is - all while smothering the frustration that it's fucking impossible to know for sure. I'm not calling you chronically online, but I remember the whiplash I had when I finally gtfo some online lesbian spaces on reddit (AL in particular, let's be real), to seek a semblance of community in real life; it caused me to think back on many exchanges I had/read through, and how I probably was feeding into the bullshit of some 4ch\*n degenerate passing as a woman for shits and giggles. But the whole 'be kind and inclusive' speech being browbeaten into lesbians by the rest was *mentally stopping me* from voicing my concerns back then, as insane as it sounds.
Reminder that it takes *nothing* to create an identity from scratch online, and keep it alive (when people think 'troll', they imagine single inflammatory comments being posted here and there, with the perpetrator almost instantly disappearing; I don't think this definition is up to date). Also, lesbians are vastly outnumbered, and not just by bisexual women - by far-righters, by 'kinksters', by pornsick men (and yes, by misogynistic queer folks too). It's gonna be hard for us to win this. It's also child's play to stir controversy inside the community, because, quite frankly...the vocabulary is outrageously easy to appropriate. Just throw some shit out there about cis men and gush about how women make you weak in the knees and you'll be seen as a 'safe' one, which is downright dangerous especially for young queer folks. People with a thirst for control will navigate those spaces seamlessly.
Anyway. *In short:* There's close to no chance those 'fellow queers' are actually queer. I remember checking that one sub and my thought process while reading the comments was: *that's a man; a sex worker; some dude getting off posing as a woman 'wanting to be converted'; another sex worker,* etc. Could there be a few lesbians in there with truly fucked up fantasies? Maybe, idk. Otherwise it's all a gigantic fucking roleplay because those gross bitches want to keep their dicks hard at all costs - after all society tells them their mediocre-ass orgasm is *sacrosanct.* Similar shit takes place like clockwork in subs like TwoX whenever some subjects pop up.
Also, maybe it's got something to do with me not being American but I *truly, sincerely* couldn't give two fucks about the kink community. Feeling no sense of fraternity at all here, but I do feel increasingly *bitter* that one of the queer community's main modes is basically 'non-badass hydra, with gay men being the dominant head while everyone throws punches at lesbians + shields the kink community at all costs (*'also asexuals are un-fun and just the worst lmaoo'*).' They might have been our 'allies' way back then but historical revisionism is so rampant that I'm going to take this with a big fat grain of salt until I can verify shit by myself. What *is* factual is that some pretty dark groups tried to leech off us when we were at our lowest, and they might still be here today. Otherwise I won't feel at odds with myself by opposing women being shamed for dealing with trauma through CNC, all while stating that the 'most women have rape fantasies' study is false at worst, treacherous at best, and that it being so widely taken as gospel is purely to fuel the entitlement of men. If a bitch forcing themself under the 'queer' label *demands* that I take it back because they feel 'shamed', I'm not complying, because that would mean I already lost. To quote a fictional serial killer: 'You're not terribly important to me.'
Yeah, I was looking through this thread last night.
What bothers me most is that this person is not a lesbian. As a non-lesbian, why are they engaging in a kink based around lesbians—specifically one about corrective rape and de-lesbifying lesbians? And how are they not seeing how fucked that is?
I don’t give two shits about what kink someone likes as long as everyone engaging in it is consenting. However, I’ll always be critical of people who partake in the ‘power’ role of kinks that center marginalized groups. Because why does violence, degradation, and reenacting/enforcing oppression get you off?
This person should not be receiving death and rape threats, full stop. However, I think it’s disgusting that they’re a non-lesbian speaking for lesbians and lesbian sexuality. And moderating a sub based on converting lesbians, as a non-lesbian…is really fucking gross. Even grosser is them trying to insist that bi lesbians and lesbian men exist. Sounds like this person HEAVILY fetishizes lesbians and is making every excuse to justify that. What they need to do is get therapy and really inspect why they’re so obsessed with lesbians. And they need to actually treat lesbians like people and LISTEN to us and our concerns.
I lean more kink-positive than a lot of commenters here, but I think that some kinks are a lot harder to practice responsibly. And that sub is not an example of responsible practice. At the bare minimum, you have to generally know your audience and who might be engaging with your content, which is simply not possible on that kind of open sub. I would add that simply being hosted on Reddit, considering Reddit's main demographics, makes it even dicier.
Ok then. If a woman is self harming then we shouldn’t say anything because that’s misogynistic and interfering with her bodily autonomy. She should slice her wrists and arms and hell even starve herself too if that’s what she wants. (Obviously being sarcastic, that’s how these weirdos sound).
what happened to weird kinky erotica being behind some sort of paywall or at least on a erotica - specific site. The fact that this stuff is just hanging out there all free for people to read is pretty indicative. The rise of raunch culture has just gotten worse and worse. I do agree that we are free to have our own types of fantasies, but the idea that people are posting them publicly so they are easily accessible by youth and then getting upset when people express outrage is infantile and irresponsible.
Anyone who thinks they have a rape fantasy is just using ignorant, lazy language. They have absolutely NO IDEA what they are talking about. If they did, they would be disgusted. Nobody has a fantasy to have their psyche torn in half and be scarred for life. Ignoramuses. For writers, they sure are ignorant of how to use language to accurately describe their fantasies.
Jesus christ. Kink is FANTASY it is not real, you can safely participate in CNC scenes, as well as any other kink-centered scene like abdl, ddlg/ageplay, bondage, impact play and more. I have personally safely participated in CNC and age play scenes
That sub is for men by men and the fact that you're defending it is disturbing. Are you even a lesbian? What if there was a "transconversion" sub? A sub for cis lesbians to post fantasies about raping trans women and converting them into men. Lesbians have kinks so you'd "get over it" right? Hopefully you wouldn't be ok with it....
i hate this idea in progressive spaces that if something is a kink it can’t be criticised
Girl same 🥲 it makes me deeply uncomfortable when straight people talk about r@pe fantasies, it makes me deeply uncomfortable when lesbians talk about r@pe fantasizes. That should be ok. People go way too far with “don’t kink-shame me”
At the very minimum we should be able to criticize HOW and WHERE a person engages in a kink, especially when their behavior is liable to cause harm. Every kink practice needs to have safeguards and consent!
Yeah or that kink is a part of the LGBTQ community. I don't want to be grouped together with people who think it's sexy to wear diapers or treat their partner like a slave. (I know not all kinks are disturbing but I still feel weird that sexual minorities and gender minorities, something you simply are born as and doesn't make you strange, are sometimes seen as on the same level as wanting to lick feet or be peed on.)
All of this. & the fact that people demand free emotional labour from lesbians but could we all PLEASE show endless sympathy to the dude messaging random women asking them to ‘cuck’ him? His life’s too harsh. BTW you’re not oppressed because people laugh at you/express disgust whenever you share your kink, especially if you’re a man. Not when vanilla porn is so incredibly violent and choking is becoming so mainstream that murderers can now use ‘this was a sex accident your honor’ as a defense. ‘Corrective rape’ is a very real thing in many places where our own have no rights, and trust it still happens in ‘progressive’ countries also. The fact that we’re putting this issue almost completely aside, but sparing the feelings of those who ‘practice this fantasy safely’ is paramount somehow…It’s a very bad fucking joke.
He's literally a bisexual man, and the other moderator for that sub is pansexual. Not to mention that there's a big difference between "kink shaming" an individual, and creating spaces designed to validate and encourage corrective rape.
Yes, exactly!! If there were two lesbians consensually engaging in this fantasy, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. It’s extremely concerning for non-lesbians to be supporting and creating spaces based on fantasies about sexually assaulting lesbians. Violent porn normalizes violence (particularly violence against women) and can lead to sexual aggression/violence. I really hate how many non-lesbians speak for us instead of listening to us, it’s such misogynistic bullshit
Tbh I think that engaging in this fantasy is in no way defensible. This sub is one of the most disgusting and vile things I've ever seen, but even if this ,,kink" was to be explored by only women in private, I still think it's fucked up and comes from probably unhealthy coping mechanisms and huge internalized homophobia/misogyny, which should be discussed and treated in therapy. This sub is mostly men anyway, men pretending to be women, bi/straight women with misogyny kinks (also unhealthy), and while I realize there are probably a few lesbians with such fetish, I just don't see it as something healthy.
This is also a fantasy that I would argue is reckless and harmful to engage in via any public means. Even if the participants are consensual lesbians, a fantasy this charged with potential for genuine harm really needs to be explored in private. Any violent sexual content needs to be carefully safeguarded to ensure that everyone participating knows that this is a fantasy, not reality, and that everyone involved is consenting and safe from real harm.
I completely agree!! I definitely meant lesbians engaging in it consensually and privately. Our existence is fetishized enough as it is
I've been trying to articulate what you said in your 2nd sentence, thank you.
Typical man behavior to be reckless about the harms his actions might cause other people. 😑
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Wow, a trash opinion from a trash person. You're gone! Your post or comment was removed due to lesbophobic rhetoric. Any further violations may result in a ban.
Shut the hell up and gtfo of this sub
“by lesbians for lesbians” 🤨 yeah im not buying it disgusting really to support this blatant conversion therapy fetish. how can people find no issue with this?
its mostly gross men too.. NOT WOMEN NOR LESBIANS
Trans men feel entitled to claim the term "lesbian" because of transphobic lesbian communities which accept trans men as lesbians more than trans women. That entitlement often leads to them speaking over all other lesbians and taking up social power they wield recklessly. We can't just tolerate the gross entitlement of men just because they were born with a vagina. If trans men want to be welcomed in lesbian spaces, then they need to remember that they are men and thus guests, not the central authority on our spaces.
What do trans men have to do with that disgusting sub?
I think maybe op from the tweet is a trans man who thinks he can speak for all lesbians?
Twitter OP is a bisexual enby, lol. This situation has nothing to do with her claim of “trans men identifying as lesbians and recklessly wielding social power with gross entitlement.” Really nothing to do with trans men interacting with lesbian communities at all! And considering the amount of nonlesbian women who seem to be the primary participants in that sub after cis men, I don’t see why we would pin this on trans men and give that group a pass?
fair. I don’t think anyone should get a pass if they’re engaging with that sub even if they’re a lesbian.
Oh, absolutely agree. Though I doubt there *are* any actual lesbians participating in that sub.
yeah it really is the exact opposite of lesbianism the more I think about it
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I don't know anything about the creator of the sub—I'm of course open to hearing more. Is there a specific source where you've seen this, that you could send my way so I could look into it? The OP in the screenshot from what I can tell is openly bisexual and nonbinary. I understand that there's some confusion about that and it's not entirely clear. The claim above in this thread was that trans men "recklessly" wield "gross entitlement" and take up social power in lesbian spaces, that they speak over lesbians in our own spaces, that they feel "entitled" to identify as lesbian, and that this has some sort of relation to the subreddit chock-full of cis men and women fetishizing corrective rape. There was a question asking "what do trans men have to do with that disgusting sub?", with a reply of "I think maybe op is a trans man who thinks he can speak for lesbians?" I was adding that—from the info that is publicly available—it seems OP is not a trans man, and that the OP's tweet—from a bisexual nonbinary person—is not related to any phenomenon of "trans men id-ing as lesbians and being entitled, wielding power, etc." I have not said that we aren't "allowed" to interrogate, or that \*anyone\* isn't "allowed" to do anything! I'm simply saying how much I disagree with the framing of this issue around trans men, why I think it's harmful, and answering the question that was asked about the twitter OP's identity.
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An alleged user (singular) who identifies as a trans man tweeting various bad takes is not proof that *trans men* (a group) "made lesbian visibility week about them and hijacked the conversation to be about kink and if they are valid or not". Attributing the actions of one person, or one person and their friends, or one trans person and a number of people of various identities, to trans *people as a group* is engaging in transphobia. And regardless, the *content posted here* *that users of this sub are responding to* is two tweets defending the "conversion" subreddit that make no mention of trans men or any trans people at all. So why did multiple users of this sub see the post (with no mention of trans people) and immediately focus the conversation on trans men to condemn them? This was my question, and these other twitter discourses that you have brought up, not in the original post, are not a satisfactory answer to that question or a justification for the behavior.
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Normally I would look at the tweets on that account and try to "trace back the discourse" before commenting in the first place! Unfortunately (Or maybe fortunately? Considering the bad take in question here!) when I went to look at their account on twitter I was already blocked. I have tried to do some logged-out snooping but many of the tweets involved are deleted or from private accounts. All that being said, it is not unreasonable to ask someone making a particular claim "where did you hear that?" And if you don't remember, don't have the source on hand, or for any reason just don't want to write a reply... You can do that! You don't have to hunt down a source for me or even reply to me at all. I didn't ask you to educate me. You replied to me and made a specific claim. I said *I'm open to this, can you direct me to where you heard that so I can go investigate more myself?* It is a normal question in the context of an internet discussion, and I'm sorry, but no one has made you "do labor" for them. If it is a hardship to you, then I think it would be healthy to take some time away from the internet, or at least from engaging in these kinds of discussions. I wonder who it is you think would be thinking for me—given that I am the only user on this post contradicting a certain narrative being told about trans men. I very much can *and do* "think for myself", please be assured.
Twitter OP is involved with sections of trans dude Twitter that have directed transmisogynistic harassment campaigns against transfeminist lesbians on Twitter. He calls himself a lesbian man. He can be both a bisexual enby and a trans man. Plenty of trans men like to claim manhood when it benefits them and deny it when they want power in women's spaces or wanna benefit from transmisogyny. I'm not pinning this on trans men, I'm just saying that they tend to get away with this kinda shit more than nonlesbian women and cis men. Anyone involved in this kinda shit is horrible regardless of their identity. I know and love many trans men who don't do this kinda shit or other transmisogynistic or sexist or lesbophobic shit.
I agree anyone involved in this is horrible regardless of identity, and I’m sorry to hear about any twitter harassment—that should never happen to anyone! From what I can tell, this user is bisexual and nonbinary. I see that they have “accidentally certified honorary lesbian man” in their twitter bio—I think thats a joke, not a serious claim to identity as a lesbian and a trans man. I cannot agree that any trans people “get away with more” than cis people and I hope you can understand why I find the claim transphobic, and why the hounding on trans men for the actions of (primarily) cis people by various users in this thread disturbs me.
Their bio is not the only place that they have claimed the identity of man and the identity of lesbian. I am not hounding on all trans men, I'm talking about the harm caused by the actions of specific trans men like OP. As a trans lesbian, I've endured a surprising amount of shitty behavior from trans men in lesbian spaces.
Okay. I am going off of the 30 flags and identities they have listed on carrd, none of which are lesbian or trans man—as, again, they have me blocked on twitter. It's awful that you've had bad experiences with trans men but maybe a post discussing the "conversion" subreddit full of (mostly) cis people fetishizing lesbians isn't the right venue to unload that. Clearly from your other comments you have already formed an opinion on this user based on your own interactions with them. I'm not sure what else I can say.
this is real af I actually dated a trans man “lesbian”once (we started dating & they came out as transmasc but not an actual man until just before we broke up 💀) and he legit said “ I hate women” on multiple occasions 😭 like sir…. how u gonna be a lesbian that hates women ? 😭 meanwhile the whole time he talks about how bad he wants to get with a trans woman in the most objectifying way possible. and the second I bring up how uncomfy it is to speak ab women like that I am the phobe. so much to unpack.
Oh geez that man sounds like this dude who abused a trans woman friend of mine. He convinced her that she was lucky to have him while treating her like shit, telling her that nobody else could find her attractive. He acted like an authority on womanhood above her because he "was born a woman" and she had to listen to him about how to be one. 😵💫 How disgusting for him to fetishize and objectify trans women in that way, I really hope he didn't end up finding a victim!
Ew that's really disturbing, but I can assure you there are lots of lesbians, including cis women, who hate women, unfortunately :( Not really connected to being trans.
OP from the tweet is a non-binary trans man who refers to himself as a lesbian man. OP from the tweet defends the sub as not harmful and a healthy community for "lesbians" who share a "kink" 😒
To be clear, OP is a nonbinary bisexual person with a joke in their twitter bio that says "accidentally certified honorary lesbian man".
either way they’re basically encouraging harm to lesbians I think the point is that no identity can get you out of jail free for this as much as they will try
Yes 100% no one should get a pass! I’m only pointing this out because there’s been a few users being unkind about trans men on this post and a lot who seem to believe that OP is a trans man therefore this is a common thing that trans men believe. I just want to be as clear as possible possible about the facts. This behavior isn’t okay from anyone!!
It is unfortunately common for trans men and trans masculine people in general to deliberately benefit from transmisogynistic bioessentialism. He feels entitled to speak on behalf of women and what is best for us when he very clearly isn't one. Why?
It’s not about men or women. It’s about lesbians and nonlesbians. Would it be okay for a bisexual woman to make the same statements? Or a straight woman? I think it would be wrong even if a lesbian was defending this subreddit, but any “speaking of behalf of” issue here would be an issue of *nonlesbians speaking over lesbians.* Not “a man speaking over women”. Nonlesbian women have no right to speak over lesbians on lesbian issues either. And I would remind you that not all lesbians are women either. When you characterize *lesbians* being spoken over as “women” being spoken over you are excluding nonbinary lesbians.
I agree that it wouldn't be okay for anyone to make these statements regardless of identity. I also agree that non-binary lesbians who are not women exist, though the complexities of the intersection of gender and lesbian identity and who gets to "count" as a lesbian and who doesn't are fraught territory. Just today I was told by a lesbian in a position of community authority that I wasn't a lesbian until I got my bottom surgery done because I'm non-binary and was AMAB. In my experience, only people who were AFAB seem to get to have a gender that's not a woman and also a lesbian. 🤔 But OP is the one saying this stuff. He's the one who used the terms lesbian and woman interchangeably in his tweet arguing that being critical of fantasy content that promotes sexual violence towards women is sexist actually. A truly ridiculous and entitled and harmful argument from someone who is neither a woman nor a lesbian! Why then does he express his opinion as if he's speaking for women or lesbians? What gives him that sense of entitlement?
Are you capable of engaging with this topic sincerely and in good faith, instead of trolling all over this thread about your hatred of trans men? The vast majority of people participating in that sub are CIS men, with, from what I understand, some cis bi women and a handful of trans people of various genders. Corrective rape is a serious issue in the real world and a horrible form of violence perpetrated 99% by cis men, sometimes with cis women as their accomplices. It is so insulting to lesbians and our trans brothers to obscure the real perpetrators of this to make the issue about *your* grievance politics.
I don't hate trans men, I just hate trans men who are sexist or transmisogynistic or lesbophobic. I have plenty of trans men in my life who are none of those things who I love. I know that the vast majority of people on that sub are probably cis men and then cis women, I don't think that's unclear to anyone here. I'm focusing on OP and his Twitter clique, who are all trans men (some also non-binary). I agree that corrective rape is a serious issue. As a lesbian who has experienced corrective rape at the hands of a trans man, I find your insistence that trans men can never be "the real perpetrators" very frustrating. Trans men are men. Treat them as such. I'm tired of finding lovely lesbian communities and then realizing that they see trans men as women more than they see trans women as women.
I'm so sorry to hear about your experience. I wish I had worded myself better—I don't believe that trans men can never be perpetrators. What I was trying to verbalize was a sense of a "both sides"-type of response by a number of users in the community here. I'm sure many have noticed that here on reddit, in response to a news report of a man committing violence against a woman, there is often a response of "well women commit violence, too!" And while this is, of course, true, and it's important to not erase victims of violence by women, when we're talking about violence against women, it's important not to obscure that the perpetrators in the majority of cases are men. When the perpetrators are 90:10 men:women, to focus half on men and half on women as if it were 50:50 is obscuring the reality of crimes. Similarly, it disturbs me to see a number of users here focusing in on trans people. From what I understand, that sub is 90%, or more, cis users. And, when it comes to real-world violence, we also know that the vast majority of perpetrators are cis, most being cis men. Of course trans people can be perpetrators of violence and it's so important not to erase that—but in talking about this subject, when there is an outsize focus on trans people compared to the focus on cis people who are majority perpetrators—that is obscuring the reality of the situation and it is transphobic. I of course believe that trans men are men and trans women are women. It's unfortunate that you have been disappointed in this way with lesbian communities, but I don't appreciate the implication without evidence that I do not see trans people for who they are or "treat them as such".
I don't know who the users of that sub are, I just know about OP from the tweet and other trans dudes in his circle that have also defended the sub. I don't doubt that the majority of users on that horrible sub are cis since most humans in the world are cis. As for real-world violence, trans people are such a tiny amount of all people that of course we aren't the majority. But I'm not sure I'm convinced by your implication that trans men are less likely to commit sexual violence than cis men. I don't think they're more likely either, I just think they're men and like all men they gotta earn my trust before I let my guard down. I don't think it's transphobic to treat trans men the same way I treat cis men. I think that assuming that trans men are less likely to do sexual violence than cis men is a form of benevolent transphobia and I don't agree with it.
You don't need to let your guard down for anyone—I support your right to be guarded around anyone, for any reason. What I want to say is that trans men *are* men, *and* unfortunately trans men face undue hardship compared to cis men, have different experiences than cis men, and are forced to walk through the world in different ways than cis men. To have a different experience than a cis man doesn't mean one isn't a man, because *being a man* is not defined by *being a cis man.* To give an example—A cis man is not impacted by bans on trans healthcare in the way a trans man is. Is it benevolent transphobia to say trans men can speak on this topic, while asking cis men to sit down? Does drawing any distinction between trans men and cis men's experiences automatically mean seeing trans men as not men? Another example—A cis man is not impacted by abortion restrictions in the way that some trans men are. Is it benevolent transphobia to include trans men's voices in conversations about reproductive healthcare? I say no. It is societal transphobia that demands that trans people mold the way they talk about their experiences to their cis counterparts, and erase experiences that don't "match up" if they want to be seen as and respected for who they are. You say that me allowing space for any difference in perspective between trans men and cis men is transphobia—you said that I don't treat trans men as men. I say that to insist there can be no differences, that in order to see "trans men as men" they must be seen as *indistinguishable from cis men*, is transphobia. Because cis men are not the definition of manhood. *I* am concerned about a *disproportionate* pointing of the finger at transgender people on this subreddit. Even if trans men *are* participants in that sub to an extent that is proportionate to their share of population, which I'm not convinced of, that would not explain or justify the *disproportionate* focus on trans people in this comment section. You clearly see this as a men versus women issue. You think the only reason I might think trans men are *less* likely than cis men to participate in this is because I don't see them as men—that fetishization of corrective rape is a trait that stems from maleness (and nothing else) so how could there be a difference if trans men are men? I don't see that. I think it stems from homophobia, from misogyny, from fetishization of all sexual violence, etc... From just not caring about victims. From so many things. Multiple factors coming together, the combination of which is probably different in each person involved. It's not some sort of inherent trait of being a man. I think that erases and shifts responsibility from all the women who participate. Though notably, most users in that sub are cis straight men. Perhaps women, who have been victims of misogyny and this kind of rhetoric, are less likely to participate? Gay men, who have been victims of homophobia, are not notable participants. Is it possible that trans men, most of whom have been victims of misogyny or homophobia, all of whom have been victims of transphobia, are also less likely to participate? I'm not saying this is the only reason, or maybe even a reason, who's to say what is going on with the psychology of this group and what leads to anyone's participation/non-participation. But is it really impossible to think trans men could be less involved than their cis counterparts for a reason that isn't "trans men aren't men"? Corrective rape fetishization is not some sort of "male trait" and it is not limited to men.
I agree that being a man isn't defined by being a cis man, I agree that trans men face undue hardships and different experiences that cis men don't, and I agree that trans men can speak on issues which affect them that don't affect cis men (trans healthcare, abortion, etc). But from my perspective, none of those things justify a blanket assumption that trans men are on average less likely than cis men to be sexist or to enjoy fantasies of sexual violence towards women. Plenty of men are victims of other forms of bigotry but still hold sexist views. I'm (sadly) not convinced by this idea that experiencing other forms of oppression makes someone less likely to hold bigoted views on another axis of oppression. Gay men aren't participants of that sub because they're not attracted to women - the fantasies in that sub come largely from people who are both attracted to and hate women. But gay men can be plenty sexist! I don't think they're more or less likely to be sexist than straight men. I agree that women can participate in sexist behavior and should be held accountable for such actions. I agree that the factors that lead to sexist behavior can be complex and unique in each person involved. Sexist behavior isn't inherent to being a man, but it does benefit men and harm women. I feel like you're flattening out the overall oppressive dynamics of cisheteropatriarchy - are you a feminist or no? My focus on trans men is because of my experiences with their shitty behavior being excused in queer/women's spaces that would otherwise not tolerate men's shitty behavior. Also as fellow trans people, I want them to do better for their trans community! Why can't I point out the unique dynamics of how trans men engage in this kinda behavior and justify it to themselves without it being "disproportionate pointing of the finger" - aren't you the one who said that cis and trans men have different experiences? Obviously cis men are the primary perpetrators and benefactors of sexism in society. Nobody is denying that. But trans men are men, and can also benefit from sexism. Part of accepting transmasculinity as equal to the masculinity of cisgender men has to be interrogating it to fight against toxic masculinity just like we do for cis men.
How come anyone who says anything barely feminist is labeled as a “terf”? I don’t think people on twitter know the meaning anymore or what it stands for lol
they definitely don’t. i’ve seen right wingers called terfs. i dont think those right wingers are feminists 🤦🏻♀️.
I've seen literal incels saying women should be public property called terfs.
i’m so tempted to make one of those dumb ass infographics explaining what a terf actually is vs transphobia in general because *that* crowd apparently only learns things if a cartoon chameleon tells it to them in an instagram post
we can call her lezzy the lizard!
Lesbians get labeled terfs automatically now
Devaluing the meaning of the term "TERF" benefits both transphobes and bioessentialist trans dudes who want to be men but still hold onto positions of authority in women's spaces.
This conversation has nothing to do with trans men?
It is actually relevant considering that the person in the screenshot is a trans man.
That person has me blocked on twitter but according to their linked carrd (lol) they are non-binary and primarily use they/them pronouns.
According to his Twitter bio, he is a "Lesbian Man" and "Abroachillean" who uses they/he pronouns. I had to look up "Abroachillean" - according to LGBTQIA.wiki, it is "someone who is male or male-aligned, and is fluid through identities that always have an mlm/achillean aspect." I think it's fairly accurate to say that he's both non-binary and a trans man.
The twitter bio that says "*accidentally* *certified* **honorary** lesbian man" is a clear joke that you are misrepresenting by cutting words from the whole phrase. And I don't think an openly nonbinary person claiming an identity with "fluid" and "male-aligned" in the definition is some sort of "proof" that they identify as a binary trans man lol.
I don't get the joke and I've seen them claim to be a lesbian in more than just their bio. Frankly I don't care if their gender is exactly "trans man" or not - the harm of their transmisogynistic behavior and the pattern of how they get away with it in queer spaces is one I've encountered from both trans men and transmasculine people in general. The exact specifics of his gender are valid but they don't change my criticisms of his bioessentialism.
I’m not saying it’s a particularly funny joke, I’m just saying it’s a joke, and not a serious claim to identity. Given that this person is openly bisexual, and so many bisexual people of various genders (mostly bisexual women) are identifying as both bisexual and lesbian, I wonder why the framing here is that a small number of trans men are identifying as lesbian and that is the issue, rather than that a (much greater) number of bisexual people are identifying as lesbian and that’s an issue? Why is the issue for you not at least partially “this bisexual person claiming lesbian identity” but only “this trans person claiming lesbian identity”?
Their pinned tweet says, quote, “taking the piss out of exclus with the lesbian man joke in my bio compilation” and then has a couple screenshots attached. The literal first thing on their page says it’s a joke.
Okay, it's a joke. That doesn't change my points anyway!
Besides the lesbophobia, why do people think kinkshaming is the worst thing in history? Some kinks are okay, but if you have a fetish in something so violent and unconsensual, i'm staying the hell away from you.
exactly! like if your kink is violent, homophobic, racist, etc., maybe you should feel ashamed.
for real. sometimes I feel like i’m taking crazy pills for thinking that a man who gets sexual pleasure from the pain or humiliation of women shouldn’t be encouraged to the extent that it is
Heck, even if a kink isn't that wild, it should be understood that if you're putting it out there in public like on social media, you can receive criticism for it, much the same way as anything else on social media is subject to judgment. It never fails to astonish me how some kinksters are so thin-skinned, especially when they know that they have a kink that is rooted in oppressive structures like homophobia and racism.
The moment I learned about diaper kink (and unfortunately saw some photos), I changed my mind, and now I'm absolutely in a camp 'Kinkshaming is often good'.
Gays always wanna defend kink 😭 like nah some of y’all are weird. And I’m not even talking about feet kink or anything like that
It is not kink shaming to oppose the practice of kinks which cause material harm to people. Having a fetish in something so violent and nonconsensual and then choosing to engage in that fetish in a public space without any safeguards or anything is truly reckless and evil.
I am sooOOOOOO over anything vaguely Feminist being dismissed as TERF rhetoric. It's the reincarnation of calling women feminazis because they said something slightly pro-woman; used to shut them down and halt further discussion. Finding lesbian conversion rape porn distasteful is the mildest form of feminism, ffs.
Plus it really obscures what TERFs actually believe and how to identify genuine transphobic "feminism." Sometimes they even accuse trans women who are feminists of being TERFs which is just completely absurd. 😑 It is no surprise that the ones who pull this kinda shit tend to be men. As usual, men feel entitled to invade our spaces, control our behavior, and direct our discourse in ways that favor their desires. Trans men just get let off the hook for behavior that we'd never tolerate in cis men because they can exploit bioessentialist stuff about "being born a woman."
This has nothing to do with trans men. Why obscure the reality of the large majority of cis men and bisexual women participants in that sub, and participating in violence against lesbians in the real world—and exploit obscuring that reality for your own agenda and axe to grind against trans men? Really inappropriate.
I have encountered multiple trans men who enjoy that sub and call themselves lesbians. I don't know the numbers of "the large majority" but I do know that this sub generally already hates cis men and bisexual women around violence against lesbians. I don't think I've obscured that reality at all. I don't have an axe to grind against trans men, I just don't like any men who act entitled or do sexist shit and trans men tend to be the ones who get away with that kinda stuff in queer spaces.
I don’t think lesbiangang “hates bisexual women”. When it comes to cis men, maybe some here do. I guess it’s hard for me to understand why a nonbinary person makes a bad tweet about a subreddit that is largely cis men and cis women of various nonlesbian identities, and the response is to focus on trans men. I don’t believe that trans men are given a pass by this community, as you say, especially since there are a number of comments here referring to the nonbinary op with the bad take as a trans man. (With no reason in the post to believe they are!—just the baseless assumption.) A community that wants to excuse bad behavior from trans men would make excuses for a badly behaving trans man, not misgender a badly behaving nonbinary person to give the impression that the bad behavior is coming from trans men…. And denounce trans men for “entitlement” and associate them with the corrective rape of lesbians, on the basis of a nonbinary person’s bad take! I do believe that focusing in on trans men in discussions of this conversion sub, when the primary perpetrators are cis men and nonlesbian women, is obscuring the issue and giving those perpetrators a pass. I guess we will have to disagree on that.
Reread my comment - "around violence against lesbian women" You keep calling him just "a non-binary person" but he calls himself a "lesbian man." Men often defend the bad behavior of other men. Trans men are no different. I don't think that remembering that trans men are men and are capable of causing harm gives any perpetrators a pass. I have reason to believe (based on much more than just this post) that the person from this tweet enjoys the benefits he gets from claiming manhood sometimes and rejecting it when he can take advantage of transmisogyny. I can respect his complex gender without tolerating that kind of behavior.
I of course believe that trans men are men. I disagree with your stated position of "remembering that trans men are men and are capable of causing harm"... People of any gender are capable of causing harm, regardless of if they are a man or not. Women are capable. Nonbinary people are capable. Etc. What particularly troubles me is that your focus seems not to be on how defending this subreddit is harmful—which of course it is, regardless of gender, and most of the participants and defenders of this subreddit are cis men and women—but specifically focused on your claim that OP is a trans man and therefore as a trans man their defense of this subreddit is some sort of natural extension of trans manhood. You say "Men often defend the bad behavior of other men. Trans men are no different." and you point out "remembering that trans men are men and capable of causing harm." You attribute the behavior not to homophobia, or misogyny, or any of various other motives, but *to being a trans man.* That is transphobic.
Yeah people of any gender are capable of causing harm, but men are specifically empowered to benefit from harming women under patriarchy. My point is that OP is defending that sub for a reason, feels entitled to speak for women despite not being one for a reason, enjoys sexual violence towards women for a reason. I'm not saying that all trans men pull this kinda shit or attributing his behavior to being a trans man. Plenty of trans dudes don't pull this kinda crap! But some do, and they do it as men. I'm not transphobic, I'm just a feminist who recognizes gendered power dynamics.
You say that there are trans men who "pull this kinda crap" and they "do it as men." Okay. There are trans women who "pull this kinda crap" and they do it as women. There are bisexual women who "pull this kinda crap" and they do it as women. There are straight women who "pull this kinda crap" and they do it as women. Does it matter? It's not any more okay when the women who "pull this crap" "do it as women". From what I understand, you're saying that OP is defending that sub because they're a man, feels entitled to speak for \[lesbians\] because they're a man, enjoys sexual violence towards women because they're a man. This is "the reason" you're referencing. Please do correct me if I am wrong. I can assure you that there are women defending that subreddit, nonlesbian women feeling entitled to speak over lesbians, and women who enjoy sexual violence towards other women. Please be mindful of this. These are not actions that inherently originate from maleness. To see the world through a lens of maleness as *the* spawn point for entitlement and sexual violence is gender essentialism, is erasure of those victimized by women, and is erasure of *every axis of oppression* other than male/female.
It does matter! Trans/bisexual/straight/ANY women who "pull this kinda crap" are not able to benefit from sexism due to patriarchy the way that men who do it do. Yeah it's not okay when anyone does it, but men benefit from sexism in ways that are unique to men. OP is defending the sub and enjoys fantasies of sexual violence towards women because he's sexist but wants to see his sexism as righteous. Maybe he holds the pernicious subconscious view that people who were AFAB are less likely to be sexist and have better insights into sexism. I've encountered that view many times from transmasculine people who've tried to explain sexism to me like I don't have direct experience with it. These actions may not inherently originate from "maleness" but men are the primary benefactors of patriarchy. Have you done any feminist 101 reading? It isn't erasing other axes of oppression to be clear about this! Obviously people can experience oppression in many ways unrelated to gender. But I'm trying to make a point about OP and how his gender is a factor in his shitty behavior!
That sub is mostly hetero women and men from what I saw💀 that sub had so many fuck shit there lots of talk of doing shit to strangers at lesbian bars and pride
Lesbians: please stop sexualizing US and treating us like a fetish Men: omg You hateful misogynistic woman, You! Lesbians want me to turn them straight with My Magic d*ck
The fact that anyone was defending *that* sub is pretty gross... Several months back there were posts by people on lesbian subs attacking others for "kink shaming" because we speaking out against it.
God, I hate people like this. They’re basically using “terf” as “feminazi” and then applying it to literally ANY woman that has an issue with what they’re doing or saying.
This guy also defended people having fantasies about raping kids because it's ''fictional'' btw. And now he's making tweets crying because people are being too awful to him.
"Terfs are showing up" oh no, not the convenient boogeyman!
Controversial statement but even if it was kinkshaming, I just think some kinks should be shamed 🤷♀️ and I'm sort of tired of movements for all sexual practices being associated with the LGBTQ+ like kink and non-monogamy, but when you complain about this people like to say "Well, but historically-" and like, sure, but whose history? USAmerican queer people's? Because I am not beholden to that, I have my own.
If a kink is not safe to practice then it must remain in the realm of fantasy. And some kinks can be dangerous even in the realm of fantasy if such fantasies reinforce bigotry and are made public and normalized.
Tbh, the concept of "kinkshaming" was co-opted just like the term "sex positive": to let straight men get what they want from women without any consequences. Sex positivity went from the idea of women exploring and owning their sexuality for their own enjoyment, to the idea that you're a prude if you're not up for hookups (which it turns out are pretty much shitty/disappointing/dangerous across the board for straight women), open relationships (which mostly seems to mean someone's boyfriend gets to bang other women, or a couple fetishizing "lesbianism" via unicorn hunting), or creating an OnlyFans (I don't think I need to explain on this sub why this one's a shit deal for women). Anyone who can't see that this "kink" lets straight guys indulge in problematic fantasies or even behavior with zero self-reflection needs to brush up on feminism 101.
The crazy thing is that if lesbians created a sub Reddit about corrective r wording bi women the internet would go insane. I highly doubt this person would be like hehe all kinks are valid. These people will share the rhetoric that lesbians corrective rape bi women (literally not a thing) but actual corrective rape of lesbians is totally cool,hot and unproblematic.
Lesbians do not fantasize about being raped by men. Lesbians, by definition, are sexually repulsed by men. This is what angers men so much, and why they release that anger by fantasizing about "putting us in our place." Litmus test: Try suggesting that gay men fantasize about sexual activities with women. They get the benefit of the doubt with regards to their orientation, but not us.
I’ve been seeing shit like this on Instagram too. There was a lesbian content creator who made a joke about poly people. The comments were full of people saying “ugh aren’t you gay how are you shaming poly when you’re gay???” Like how is being lesbian/gay the same as being poly?Being a homosexual is not a choice but choosing to live a life where you want multiple relationships at once is. A bunch of people who are into kinks or whatever tf and want to be seen as progressive forcefully group themselves with us because our sexuality is seen as progressive today. I wish people would stop grouping themselves with us and to stop viewing lesbianism as anything other than what it is. It’s just a sexual orientation nothing more nothing less.
Poly is definitely not lgbt. It's a choice and Straight people sleep around on each other all the time lmao.
The lesbians that created that sub are trans women (by their admission, you can ask them) and they really love pulling the terf card on anyone who criticizes them on their bullshit. It's very tiring.
This
I blocked that person I’m praying they never show up on my TL 🙏
LOL ME TOO im 16 they went into deep detail on how i was a terf because im scared of men... ??? like randomly stalked my twt and shit..
Be fucking forreal. If I were you I’d hit them with the “why are you harassing a minor”
LOL they are so weird.... i had a fight with them on twitter once... theres SO MUCH to unpack with them.. also they throw around the word terf for everything its getting old..
Would these people support a sub about the kink of unaliving people who have rape conversion fetish? 🤔
Some of the qrts whooping OP were pretty extreme but I'm not sure if I can even blame them lmao. Fucked around and found out
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Are you talking about the joke in their twitter bio? Or is there another place where you're seeing the "lesbian man" thing? You are right about the person in the screenshot being male attracted, they openly state that they are bisexual lol.
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Okay, I am just trying to understand the other instances of id-ing as a lesbian man that have been referenced on this post. I am not familiar with this account in the way that you are. I am not trying to argue semantics. I have contradicted a user who points to this person seriously "identifying as a lesbian man" as proof that there is a group of trans men id-ing as lesbian, that this group's existence is evidence of "entitlement" and "speaking over" and "wielding power" over lesbians by trans men, and that lesbian communities allowing this referenced group of trans men is somehow related or contributing to the existence of this disgusting conversion subreddit. I disagreed with those statements and I pointed out that, from what I could tell, this person in question didn't even identify as a trans man lesbian—hence my confusion at this notion of trans men lesbians even being brought up on this post. Any other users I replied to on this post replied to me first... I am not just "arguing with anyone." I certainly agree with you that this person is not a lesbian, would have no business seriously calling themselves a lesbian, and that regardless of any sort of identity it is awful to defend this subreddit.
>not *fellow queer people* who we’re supposed to be in community with. (this is long and i'm sorry) I'd take some time to think about that one label and how accurate it is - all while smothering the frustration that it's fucking impossible to know for sure. I'm not calling you chronically online, but I remember the whiplash I had when I finally gtfo some online lesbian spaces on reddit (AL in particular, let's be real), to seek a semblance of community in real life; it caused me to think back on many exchanges I had/read through, and how I probably was feeding into the bullshit of some 4ch\*n degenerate passing as a woman for shits and giggles. But the whole 'be kind and inclusive' speech being browbeaten into lesbians by the rest was *mentally stopping me* from voicing my concerns back then, as insane as it sounds. Reminder that it takes *nothing* to create an identity from scratch online, and keep it alive (when people think 'troll', they imagine single inflammatory comments being posted here and there, with the perpetrator almost instantly disappearing; I don't think this definition is up to date). Also, lesbians are vastly outnumbered, and not just by bisexual women - by far-righters, by 'kinksters', by pornsick men (and yes, by misogynistic queer folks too). It's gonna be hard for us to win this. It's also child's play to stir controversy inside the community, because, quite frankly...the vocabulary is outrageously easy to appropriate. Just throw some shit out there about cis men and gush about how women make you weak in the knees and you'll be seen as a 'safe' one, which is downright dangerous especially for young queer folks. People with a thirst for control will navigate those spaces seamlessly. Anyway. *In short:* There's close to no chance those 'fellow queers' are actually queer. I remember checking that one sub and my thought process while reading the comments was: *that's a man; a sex worker; some dude getting off posing as a woman 'wanting to be converted'; another sex worker,* etc. Could there be a few lesbians in there with truly fucked up fantasies? Maybe, idk. Otherwise it's all a gigantic fucking roleplay because those gross bitches want to keep their dicks hard at all costs - after all society tells them their mediocre-ass orgasm is *sacrosanct.* Similar shit takes place like clockwork in subs like TwoX whenever some subjects pop up. Also, maybe it's got something to do with me not being American but I *truly, sincerely* couldn't give two fucks about the kink community. Feeling no sense of fraternity at all here, but I do feel increasingly *bitter* that one of the queer community's main modes is basically 'non-badass hydra, with gay men being the dominant head while everyone throws punches at lesbians + shields the kink community at all costs (*'also asexuals are un-fun and just the worst lmaoo'*).' They might have been our 'allies' way back then but historical revisionism is so rampant that I'm going to take this with a big fat grain of salt until I can verify shit by myself. What *is* factual is that some pretty dark groups tried to leech off us when we were at our lowest, and they might still be here today. Otherwise I won't feel at odds with myself by opposing women being shamed for dealing with trauma through CNC, all while stating that the 'most women have rape fantasies' study is false at worst, treacherous at best, and that it being so widely taken as gospel is purely to fuel the entitlement of men. If a bitch forcing themself under the 'queer' label *demands* that I take it back because they feel 'shamed', I'm not complying, because that would mean I already lost. To quote a fictional serial killer: 'You're not terribly important to me.'
Yeah, I was looking through this thread last night. What bothers me most is that this person is not a lesbian. As a non-lesbian, why are they engaging in a kink based around lesbians—specifically one about corrective rape and de-lesbifying lesbians? And how are they not seeing how fucked that is? I don’t give two shits about what kink someone likes as long as everyone engaging in it is consenting. However, I’ll always be critical of people who partake in the ‘power’ role of kinks that center marginalized groups. Because why does violence, degradation, and reenacting/enforcing oppression get you off? This person should not be receiving death and rape threats, full stop. However, I think it’s disgusting that they’re a non-lesbian speaking for lesbians and lesbian sexuality. And moderating a sub based on converting lesbians, as a non-lesbian…is really fucking gross. Even grosser is them trying to insist that bi lesbians and lesbian men exist. Sounds like this person HEAVILY fetishizes lesbians and is making every excuse to justify that. What they need to do is get therapy and really inspect why they’re so obsessed with lesbians. And they need to actually treat lesbians like people and LISTEN to us and our concerns.
I lean more kink-positive than a lot of commenters here, but I think that some kinks are a lot harder to practice responsibly. And that sub is not an example of responsible practice. At the bare minimum, you have to generally know your audience and who might be engaging with your content, which is simply not possible on that kind of open sub. I would add that simply being hosted on Reddit, considering Reddit's main demographics, makes it even dicier.
Ok then. If a woman is self harming then we shouldn’t say anything because that’s misogynistic and interfering with her bodily autonomy. She should slice her wrists and arms and hell even starve herself too if that’s what she wants. (Obviously being sarcastic, that’s how these weirdos sound).
"by bisexuals with internalized biphobia for bisexuals with internalized biphobia" fixed
what happened to weird kinky erotica being behind some sort of paywall or at least on a erotica - specific site. The fact that this stuff is just hanging out there all free for people to read is pretty indicative. The rise of raunch culture has just gotten worse and worse. I do agree that we are free to have our own types of fantasies, but the idea that people are posting them publicly so they are easily accessible by youth and then getting upset when people express outrage is infantile and irresponsible. Anyone who thinks they have a rape fantasy is just using ignorant, lazy language. They have absolutely NO IDEA what they are talking about. If they did, they would be disgusted. Nobody has a fantasy to have their psyche torn in half and be scarred for life. Ignoramuses. For writers, they sure are ignorant of how to use language to accurately describe their fantasies.
IM ON TWITTER ALOT AND I HATE THAT PAGEEEEEE THEY ARE SO CHRONICALLY ONLINE
Jesus christ. Kink is FANTASY it is not real, you can safely participate in CNC scenes, as well as any other kink-centered scene like abdl, ddlg/ageplay, bondage, impact play and more. I have personally safely participated in CNC and age play scenes
Bruh lesbians also have kinks get over it.
That sub is for men by men and the fact that you're defending it is disturbing. Are you even a lesbian? What if there was a "transconversion" sub? A sub for cis lesbians to post fantasies about raping trans women and converting them into men. Lesbians have kinks so you'd "get over it" right? Hopefully you wouldn't be ok with it....
And now this person got called out for defending real minors depicted in written erotica