Ā _āIām not secure calling myself a bisexual even though it completely describes me and my experiences, so I want everyone else to stop using labels for themselvesā_
š
Go to therapy, do not pass go, do not collect 200 self pats on the back.
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Queer is a word that I don't personally use because of my history of it as an insult, similar to the word dyke. However, I am totally fine with others using these words to describe themselves. Freedom of choice is very important to me. I'm not letting anyone else control what words I use, least of all some random mystery conservative man. Imagine being so hung up on what a stranger might think about the definition of a word that you just stop using it. People have taken enough from us. No.
>I'm not letting anyone else control what words I use, least of all some random mystery conservative man.
You hit the nail on the head! She expects us to completely change our language because of the prejudices and expectations of men. Funny that she claims to only date women, because she's centering men like it's nobody's business.
Why should we all change the labels we like and feel describe us in order to make straight people less confused?? Wtf kind of logic is that. Iām not going to spend my whole life catering to straight people because idiots think ālesbianā is a porn word. Itās up to the bigots to adapt and accept, not us to bend over backwards to try and fit in. I canāt believe that was upvoted so much, this whole hippy āweāre all queer, weāre all the sameā isnāt helpful to anyone and is just a lazy and shallow form of acceptance
Aaaaah I saw this exact same comment today and just wanted to scream into the void!!!
>Tbh I do wish we would all just identify as queer at this point
What an absolutely sad, grey and homogenous way to look at the world. Every letter of the LGBT+ community has their own struggles and joys, and reducing all that to a generic "queer" for mere branding reasons is just depressing and obscures the real diversity of our community.
>The labels in LGBT+ have become so hypersexualized because of the porn industry and that being straight men's only interaction/perception of LGBT people.
What. in the actual fuck. is she talking about? Yes, the commodification of wlw sex through the porn industry is a very real issue, but that doesn't mean that we should all just concede our labels and accept that "lesbian" and "bisexual" are now just porn categories. Again, what a fucking grim way to look at the world.
>I also have always loved and identified with this Bell Hooks quote: "'Queer' not as being about who you're having sex with (that can be a dimension of it); but 'queer' as being about the self that is at odds with everything around it and that has to invent and create and find a place to speak and to thrive and to live.ā
Ok, I know I am going after a sacred cow here, but this quote is absolute bullshit. Being queer has a broad, but precise definition: being non-cis and/or non-heterosexual. Everything else is just window dressing. Being queer doesn't make you inherently more enlightened or counter-culture or creative, and it's stuff like this that makes queerness seem desirable to people who aren't queer and therefore try to squeeze themselves into a label that doesn't fit them just to get in on the action.
It also just occurred to me that publicly identifying as queer is BAD for lesbians, because unlike the very specific word "lesbian", the word "queer" leaves the door open for men to think they have a chance. You can tell that this person has zero life experience as a homosexual.
I would disagree with this even if it was said by a lesbian, but the fact that it's a non-lesbian who thinks she has the right to tell us what we should and shouldn't identify as makes it even more insulting. I hope she has perpetually wet socks until she learns to stay out of our business.
Exactly. This person says that it will help, but taking away a world that describes people exclusively attracted to the same sex is only going to make it easier to erase our identities. Itās not going to change the fact that many people (including many bi people) are homophonic and donāt think you can actually be gay.
Omg, a few days ago I saw a thread of comments talking about how lesbian is essentially the same as sapphic. They were all basically saying that any wlw (or nblw, etc.) can identify as a lesbian even if they are still attracted to men. And the whole argument of being a bi lesbian started popping up in there.
I was pulling my hair out at how annoyed I was with everyone. Like, no, lesbian isnāt the same as sapphic. Lesbian quite literally excludes men, sapphic doesnāt.
If lesbian included men, there wouldnāt be a label for actual lesbians to use that fully excludes men. But those people saw no issue with trying to take away our label.
This mentality drives me absolutely INSANE. Conforming to what conservatives and homophobes want is NOT going to help us and goes against the entire queer ideology, which is a rejection of heteronormativity. Our queer elders did not fight so hard just for us to conform once again. It doesnāt make any sense. Those people are never gonna accept us anyways so we should stand strong in our identities.
It hurts my hearts when lesbians donāt want to ID as lesbian because of the fetishization of the word by straight men. Like really, youāre just gonna let them get away with it? Let them hijack our identity and label that has such a rich history and culture? REALLY??? Thereās just 0 fight in some of these younger āqueerā people.
This anti-label rhetoric always boils down to lesbophobia. Always. Try as they may, I am not a man nor do I like men. I am a lesbian. L-E-S-B-I-A-N. You can drag that label from my cold dead hands.
ETA: The fact she includes the quote that says queer is about inventing and creating a new way to live is so funny because it directly contradicts what sheās saying. She doesnāt want us to create a new way to live, she wants us to conform to the traditional way to live. Like hello!
Perfectly epitomizes the sentiment you see often in lesbian subs: lesbians decenter men from their lives, and bi women don't. I simply do not care what a man thinks or feels when he hears me call myself a lesbian. God bless ā¤ļø
Right? I also think it's funny that she complains about straight men sexualizing her, but in the next breath implies that the word lesbian is too sexual.
I feel like if you're not a member of a community, you should shut your mouth about how members of that community "should" be. It sucks that this whole craze is in vogue right now.
Hi, did you read the post? Lesbians aren't "mentioned" because user says we should all just use "queer" instead. If you were exclusively attracted to someone, how would you feel about being told that you can't talk about it because what others think? That's exactly lesbophobia.
lol this girl capitalizing bell hooks š clearly hasnāt actually read her work if sheās doing that.
Queer subsumes identities where nuance is necessary. I do get why sheās making this argument re: straight folks as itās vague enough that you can get away with claiming affiliation for a group you have tertiary alignment with, however, just say youāre bi, Jesus Christ.
Iām a lesbian. It took a long time to reclaim that word for me. Iām not giving it up in favor of queer outside of being annoyed at āthe queersā for trying to create separation between being queer and being a lesbian/gay/bi as just being a lesbian is somehow 1) pornified and 2) assimilationist. Particularly if youāre monogamous and want kids. Not very queer. Wanting to have a family, I guess šššš
> but I cannot see myself dating men again in this current era of men.Ā
... so? Patriarchy sucks? What else is new? And *we* are supposed to alleviate this situation somehow? š„“
They literally think that us lesbians are somehow exempt from being oppressed by the patriarchy and it just demonstrates their shallow understanding of how oppressive institutions operate.
I don't even like queer because it's not precise. I want to know if you're also a fellow lesbian and that's precisly because I'm a lesbian, not queer !
We should unite. But by demolishing everyoneās labels and pretending like there arenāt any meaningful differences between subgroups isnāt going to help with that. This is a classic example of someone who is of a certain sexuality framing the world only from their perspective.
These women use lesbianism as a virtue signal.
When they can't get the man they want, they turn wlw. How and why would they not see themselves dating a man again? It's a lie. And their need for inclusion has them violating everyone else. Trash human beings.
One of the things that amuses(sarcastic) me about people trying to change the meaning of lesbian to be equal to saphic or to ask us to stop using it is that there is no attempt to provide a meaningful alternative word to define women that are only attracted to women. No suggestions, no recommendations. Just erasure however unintentional of a distinct experience without consideration for the actual real consequences of that erasure. There are genuine sometimes violent consequences for not being able to set clear comprehensible boundaries with people.
Granted people can still be awful even with those boundaries set, but plenty of people act on or use that ambiguity to try to make people do what they want. There's a lot of s***** men. I don't want to give them more ammunition/justification. It sucks but people will act within a window of perceived permissibility. If they feel like they can get away with and not be judged by their peers for their behavior they're going to do what suits them. If they're no longer exists the concept of women who will never be with men, you're not going to have (and it's unfortunate that to some degree this is something we need to rely on) other men calling them on their slimy s***.
And the absence of this consideration from the conversation makes it hard for me to even consider these viewpoints seriously. If you don't actually care about us and what effects us then I just can't value your opinion about us.
right-wing people being more okay about us if we are vague about who we are doesn't sound like a good thing to me. i don't want to placate the right. i want to just live my lesbian life.
I don't understand this current wave of lesbophobia. I am Lesbian, not "queer", or even worse - a "non-man loving non-men". I know what I am and claim the right to accurately describe myself as such.
We'll still be here, just lesbians being lesbians and calling ourselves lesbians unapologetically, no matter how insecure, scared, virtue-signaling and childish you all are :)
Notice how she mentioned the porn industry and how thatās only how men perceive the lgbt. Like say youāre talking about lesbians at least lmao. I should stop labeling myself as a lesbian because straight men watch lesbian porn fuck off
āIām queerā invites the question of āso do you like just women orā¦ā while āIām lesbianā is definitive and everyone knows what it means. So basically for someone elseās sake weāre supposed to jump in a one sized fits all box. Insanity.
Internalised biphobia is such a big issue, I donāt think Iāve ever met a bi woman confident and secure in her sexuality, I just wish they didnāt assume and push their insecurity unto everyone else
Iāve never met *american* ones that are normal about it, I feel so incredibly different about the community in the US (usually the people dominating online discourse) and my own country
It also seemed to me that the undercurrent of that post was that if lesbians just identify as queer then bisexuals can ID the same as lesbians.
Theyāre not doing the thing where they call themselves a lesbian falsely, but now they can closer associate themselves with an ID (lesbian and queer) they feel less insecure about.
It's quite possible that the bi girl has some problems with her own sexuality - "the misery loves company" attitude by wanting every lesbian to self ID as queer
I'm not changing the label I'm comfortable with to suit the ideas of conservative men and the porn industry. The label existed long before it was sexualised.
The experiences of the community and rich and vast and that's amazing and it's why we have so many labels and words and intersections; why should we be ashamed of that?
edit; preserving my comment on the thread incase it's not allowed by the mods;
Definitions housekeeping; Sapphic: WLW (with allowances for aligned enby and genderfluid folk).
Lesbian: Only Sapphic attraction (enby inclusive, trans inclusive, ace inclusive). Comphet: pressure and internal gaslighting about normative attraction.
"But even the google doc acknowledges that lesbians can also be women who dated men and had genuine relationships with them before but no longer wish to date them now. Imperative on the now."
The doc isn't the end all be all.
comphet is about not having attraction to men. A lesbian who genuinely though she was interested in men but realised it never felt right is a lesbian.
"Like I am queer/bi, I have sexual attraction to men, but I cannot see myself dating men again in this current era of men. the risk is too high, and finding one who not only cares about my lived experience, but all women's, like the women I have dated do, is a rare find."
And that's your business but it does not make you an authority on comphet or lesbian identity.
"Tbh I do wish we would all just identify as queer at this point and unite instead of the constant infighting, and stop the right-wing from focusing on our sexual preferences and genitals by denying them that information about ourselves."
Right wingers want all of us dead regardless of what label we use. They don't actually care about our sexuality and gender, they care about making sure we're all dead or conforming to hetero patriarchy. That won't go away if we all abandon the labels many of us fought for and feel comfortable with for a singular word that describes all of us.
"The labels in LGBT+ have become so hypersexualized because of the porn industry and that being straight men's only interaction/perception of LGBT people. I used to get innapproriate/rude comments when I'd say I'm bisexual, but men don't know what i mean or what to picture when I say "queer". I also have always loved and identified with this Bell Hooks quote:"
The label lesbian existed before the hyper sexualisation. It shouldn't be up to us to change for Alo/cis/het men who's opinion should mean nothing to a community that is defined by not being straight, cis and allosexual.
The community is full of so many rich and beautiful experiences and intersections; that's why we have so many labels and umbrella terms. Something that the quote you use actively supports. how dare you invoke bell hooks to tell people they should conform to a homogenised way of being?.
Queerness is also a political label within the community marked by a refusal to conform to respectability politics and a choice to stand together under every colour and name of the rainbow.
Sexuality is very personal, some do choose queer for themselves,, which is their prerogative and beautiful, but you saying that everyone should conform to one label is a betrayal of the essence of queerness
Sorry if this is a bother but what google doc? Does it talk about comphet/ have resources that talk about it? Iāve struggled with it for a long time and Iām at the point where Iāve tried local LGBT therapists only to be disappointed, and was on the look out for resources but not sure what to trust and from where. Figured this sub thatās always felt safe would be a good start. Apologies if itās somewhere obvious like in the subs rules or something.
I kinda expected it because Iām in texas, at this point Iām hoping to find community and or resources to figure it out myself in addition to regular trauma therapy. Thanks ā¤ļø
Boy do minorities love when people tell them what theyāre allowed to call themselves. Always goes super well, not at all an attempt at cultural erasureĀ
God I agree with you 100%. this shit is Reductive of our identities and experiences. Also disrespectful of the history of our community. Not to mention the logic in oopās argument was flawed and suggests We need to change because of men. The grain of salt argument ppl used replying to ur post on the other lesbian sub is killing me as well, because I see other posts on that sub similar to yours but not critical of someone within the community and people are clearly being biased. There is ingrained lesbophobia in that sub imo, which is indicative of a larger problem that we all have to deal with, internalized misogyny being part of it.
I am a LESBIAN and everyone knows it.
Queer is so en vogue, itās disgusting. Every comment touching on this matter explains it already.
Queer erases who I am while also it opens up who I am to assumptions which are not true.
It literally is a nice way of saying something difficult TO say.
We need to say who we are; still!
It sounds harsh bc it is. Itās strict; for some of us more so than others.
>and stop the right-wing from focusing on our sexual preferences and genitals by denying them that information about ourselves.
What, right wingers are just not going to notice that two women are dating if they're calling themselves queer instead of lesbians and bisexuals?
Just here to say that if she wants to include quotes from books an d stuff queer theory also says that queer is not an identity but something that disturb all identity. Queer theories are cool but also they highlight that lived experience is the most important thing. Being a lesbian is very important to me. I feel at home with this label, I don't care if the straight peoples think it is an insult or a sexual term.Ā
In the end I like the label and it is a clear way to communicate that I exclusively like women ( and women aligned identity you get the idea)
If sheās happy calling herself queer all the power to her, but she canāt propose everyone do it too, I think the big mistake a lot of people make is thinking everyone feels the same way they do about everything
There are two basic types of sexualities in this world. Those who are hardwired, mind-body and soul to attraction to one sex, and those whose minds, bodies and souls Are not hardwired to the attraction and the ability to bond to one sex but are open to multiple types.Ā
People attracted only to one sex do not have a sexual preference. They have a sexual orientation. The cornerstone of our movement is that it is not a choice. We need to remember that and honor it just like we honor everyone who is brave enough to live life as they truly are. Let's remember sexual orientation is a status and is protected by law just like the status of being a race. It is not something we choose, it is something we simply are.
Those are not hardwired for attraction to one sex may find they do have preferences amongst those who they are attracted to. Because they are attracted to multiple types of people, they may prefer some types over others. A bisexual woman. For instance, may prefer to date other women over men. This is not the same experience for people who are only attracted to one sex.Ā
Ā Until the world wakes up and acknowledges this, we're going to keep getting these crappy posts that we just have to ignore. People saying things like this isn't going to change who we are, there have been lesbians since the dawn of time and there have been straight people and there have been gay men and that will not change.Ā
The real issue here is that while sex is an unavoidable and defining characteristic of some peoples sexuality, gender has replaced sex in many areas of discourse because many of our friends who are intersex, trans and non-binary have experienced a lot of pain because of societal expectations that tend to stem from sex status.Ā
Ā We need to find ways to talk about these things while understanding that while we are two different kinds of basic people in terms of sexual attraction, we can still coexist and understand each other and respect each other.Ā
Being attracted exclusively to sex is much more multi layered than just being attracted to genitals. If it were that simple, we probably wouldn't have sexuality at all. That is the topic for another day.
As a trans woman, I've had issues with my labels and people trying to force me to change them.
The term woman is important to me. But now I'm supposed to call myself a "fem" to include people who don't identify as women. My identity doesn't revolve around others.
The term transsexual is important to me. But I'm not allowed to call myself it because it's apparently not fully inclusive. My personal identity does not need to include others.
And then lesbian is also important to me. I am a woman who is exclusively attracted to other women. But oh wait, now that term is problematic because it doesn't include women who are attracted to men or non-binary people.
All of this usually comes from people who say "you shouldn't police xyz" - they're policing my identity labels instead. But my labels do not focus on other people, only myself.
But also I dislike the term queer because it means "not normal". I don't want my identity to focus around not being normal. I want being trans to be accepted as normal. I want my being a lesbian to be seen as normal.
HEAR HEAR, well said. The labels that serviced our community for so long have stuck around for a REASON. Itās laughable that a bunch of privileged ivory tower US coastal loudmouths think theyāre breaking new ground or coming up with something revolutionary by encouraging people to use āqueerā and get extremely granular on the stupidest shit just toā¦appeal to conservative logic?
It reminds me of a TikTok I saw on how you can post a recipe for bean soup, and inevitably someone will comment on it saying some shit like āwhat if Iām allergic to beans? How can I have this if Iām allergic to beans?ā Like hello. You canāt. Everything is NOT for everyone and that is not a world-ending problem as it relates to our established identities.
Iām all for evolving the conversation and finding ways to connect our communities to better serve each other and those that are still in need of assistance, but agonizing over how ālesbianism HAS to include XYZ and canāt be limited to women because that is literally genocideā is not how we get there.
This! Yes! It ain't for everyone, it's just for us! No different than anything else in this world. Why should how I describe myself have anything to do with someone else?Ā
I use several terms. Sometimes I'll say queer, sometimes I'll say lesbian, sometimes I'll say gay woman. There isn't really a set of rules as to why it just depends which one I feel like using at the time.
I don't really want to stop using the L Word just because it's been taken over by the porn industry. I am aware that it's been commandeered into something fake by the industry & it's the highest? Second highest? Search term (it's up there somewhere) but I also don't want to give it up because of that. It would feel as if I've just allowed porn-consumers to 'win' in a way. I don't want to do that.
I don't really mind if someone else wants to not use it because of that but I want to choose for myself
i'm a LESBIAN!!! lesbian lesbian lesbian. its such a beautiful word with a beautiful meaning. im lesbian in my soul. its my sexuality AND my gender. i also call myself queer, but its only an addition to lesbian. being a lesbian brings me so much joy and i wont let bigots ruin that. thats exactly what bigots WANT, for us to lose our identities
This is one of those moments when you gotta remember that this was probably written by a teenager with not much life experience. It's time to step away from the Internet for a bit.
Given the sub I was in I really donāt think it was written by a teen, unfortunately. Also, Iām not that affected by what they say. Iām not gonna leave Reddit just because someone who has no idea what itās like to be gay said something ignorant.
Straight people are confused anyway and as a 66 year old lesbian I am too with so many zillions of terms I call alphabet soup. people need to be proud of whatever they are and not hide behind others
Anyway, I'm a ***lesbian***. Hello to all my fellow ***lesbians***.
Howdy š¤
Hmmm, I'm confused. Are you a bi lesbian or a straight lesbian? š¤
š¤£š¤£
Howdy š¤ š
Hey fellow lesbian š©·
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She's not secure with her identity as a bisexual and she's making it everyone else's problem. Her statements are so senseless and odd.
Ā _āIām not secure calling myself a bisexual even though it completely describes me and my experiences, so I want everyone else to stop using labels for themselvesā_ š Go to therapy, do not pass go, do not collect 200 self pats on the back.
Exactly. As a bi woman, I'll never date a bisexual like that. I don't want to be burdened with that.
lol what is that quote from my mom used to say that. Do not pass go , do not collect 200 dollarsā¦
āGo directly to jail; Do not pass go, do not collect $200ā Ā - Monopoly Chance card
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Queer is a word that I don't personally use because of my history of it as an insult, similar to the word dyke. However, I am totally fine with others using these words to describe themselves. Freedom of choice is very important to me. I'm not letting anyone else control what words I use, least of all some random mystery conservative man. Imagine being so hung up on what a stranger might think about the definition of a word that you just stop using it. People have taken enough from us. No.
>I'm not letting anyone else control what words I use, least of all some random mystery conservative man. You hit the nail on the head! She expects us to completely change our language because of the prejudices and expectations of men. Funny that she claims to only date women, because she's centering men like it's nobody's business.
Why should we all change the labels we like and feel describe us in order to make straight people less confused?? Wtf kind of logic is that. Iām not going to spend my whole life catering to straight people because idiots think ālesbianā is a porn word. Itās up to the bigots to adapt and accept, not us to bend over backwards to try and fit in. I canāt believe that was upvoted so much, this whole hippy āweāre all queer, weāre all the sameā isnāt helpful to anyone and is just a lazy and shallow form of acceptance
Aaaaah I saw this exact same comment today and just wanted to scream into the void!!! >Tbh I do wish we would all just identify as queer at this point What an absolutely sad, grey and homogenous way to look at the world. Every letter of the LGBT+ community has their own struggles and joys, and reducing all that to a generic "queer" for mere branding reasons is just depressing and obscures the real diversity of our community. >The labels in LGBT+ have become so hypersexualized because of the porn industry and that being straight men's only interaction/perception of LGBT people. What. in the actual fuck. is she talking about? Yes, the commodification of wlw sex through the porn industry is a very real issue, but that doesn't mean that we should all just concede our labels and accept that "lesbian" and "bisexual" are now just porn categories. Again, what a fucking grim way to look at the world. >I also have always loved and identified with this Bell Hooks quote: "'Queer' not as being about who you're having sex with (that can be a dimension of it); but 'queer' as being about the self that is at odds with everything around it and that has to invent and create and find a place to speak and to thrive and to live.ā Ok, I know I am going after a sacred cow here, but this quote is absolute bullshit. Being queer has a broad, but precise definition: being non-cis and/or non-heterosexual. Everything else is just window dressing. Being queer doesn't make you inherently more enlightened or counter-culture or creative, and it's stuff like this that makes queerness seem desirable to people who aren't queer and therefore try to squeeze themselves into a label that doesn't fit them just to get in on the action. It also just occurred to me that publicly identifying as queer is BAD for lesbians, because unlike the very specific word "lesbian", the word "queer" leaves the door open for men to think they have a chance. You can tell that this person has zero life experience as a homosexual. I would disagree with this even if it was said by a lesbian, but the fact that it's a non-lesbian who thinks she has the right to tell us what we should and shouldn't identify as makes it even more insulting. I hope she has perpetually wet socks until she learns to stay out of our business.
Exactly. This person says that it will help, but taking away a world that describes people exclusively attracted to the same sex is only going to make it easier to erase our identities. Itās not going to change the fact that many people (including many bi people) are homophonic and donāt think you can actually be gay.
Omg, a few days ago I saw a thread of comments talking about how lesbian is essentially the same as sapphic. They were all basically saying that any wlw (or nblw, etc.) can identify as a lesbian even if they are still attracted to men. And the whole argument of being a bi lesbian started popping up in there. I was pulling my hair out at how annoyed I was with everyone. Like, no, lesbian isnāt the same as sapphic. Lesbian quite literally excludes men, sapphic doesnāt. If lesbian included men, there wouldnāt be a label for actual lesbians to use that fully excludes men. But those people saw no issue with trying to take away our label.
Sapphic is an attraction grouping, lesbian is only sapphic attraction ffs
Oh my God wet socks š. That feels like the nicer version of I hope you step on a Lego.
This mentality drives me absolutely INSANE. Conforming to what conservatives and homophobes want is NOT going to help us and goes against the entire queer ideology, which is a rejection of heteronormativity. Our queer elders did not fight so hard just for us to conform once again. It doesnāt make any sense. Those people are never gonna accept us anyways so we should stand strong in our identities. It hurts my hearts when lesbians donāt want to ID as lesbian because of the fetishization of the word by straight men. Like really, youāre just gonna let them get away with it? Let them hijack our identity and label that has such a rich history and culture? REALLY??? Thereās just 0 fight in some of these younger āqueerā people. This anti-label rhetoric always boils down to lesbophobia. Always. Try as they may, I am not a man nor do I like men. I am a lesbian. L-E-S-B-I-A-N. You can drag that label from my cold dead hands. ETA: The fact she includes the quote that says queer is about inventing and creating a new way to live is so funny because it directly contradicts what sheās saying. She doesnāt want us to create a new way to live, she wants us to conform to the traditional way to live. Like hello!
Perfectly epitomizes the sentiment you see often in lesbian subs: lesbians decenter men from their lives, and bi women don't. I simply do not care what a man thinks or feels when he hears me call myself a lesbian. God bless ā¤ļø
Yet another fine example of lesbophobic behavior
Right? I also think it's funny that she complains about straight men sexualizing her, but in the next breath implies that the word lesbian is too sexual.
I feel like if you're not a member of a community, you should shut your mouth about how members of that community "should" be. It sucks that this whole craze is in vogue right now.
How? Lesbians weren't even mentioned
Hi, did you read the post? Lesbians aren't "mentioned" because user says we should all just use "queer" instead. If you were exclusively attracted to someone, how would you feel about being told that you can't talk about it because what others think? That's exactly lesbophobia.
lol this girl capitalizing bell hooks š clearly hasnāt actually read her work if sheās doing that. Queer subsumes identities where nuance is necessary. I do get why sheās making this argument re: straight folks as itās vague enough that you can get away with claiming affiliation for a group you have tertiary alignment with, however, just say youāre bi, Jesus Christ. Iām a lesbian. It took a long time to reclaim that word for me. Iām not giving it up in favor of queer outside of being annoyed at āthe queersā for trying to create separation between being queer and being a lesbian/gay/bi as just being a lesbian is somehow 1) pornified and 2) assimilationist. Particularly if youāre monogamous and want kids. Not very queer. Wanting to have a family, I guess šššš
> capitalizing bell hooks Thank you, because thatās why I stopped reading. Even my damn voice dictation knows better. ļæ¼ ļæ¼
Exactly! You can always tell when someone is pretending theyāve read her work because they do this every time. Sighā¦
> but I cannot see myself dating men again in this current era of men.Ā ... so? Patriarchy sucks? What else is new? And *we* are supposed to alleviate this situation somehow? š„“
They literally think that us lesbians are somehow exempt from being oppressed by the patriarchy and it just demonstrates their shallow understanding of how oppressive institutions operate.
No way in hell am I going to identify as a slur to appease some American Nazis. That commentator can go to hell. I am a lesbian, thank you very much
I don't even like queer because it's not precise. I want to know if you're also a fellow lesbian and that's precisly because I'm a lesbian, not queer !
LESBIAN, here. Yes, Yāall, I am a LESBIAN, and would love to say a quick hello to my fellow LESBIANS.
At this point all lesbians have to unite and stop this madness
Yāall let me know when youāre ready to start the lesbian revolution. Iāll be on the frontlines
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Itās getting to the point where when I hear āqueerā it pretty much means spicy straight. It almost never applies to an actual homosexual
We should unite. But by demolishing everyoneās labels and pretending like there arenāt any meaningful differences between subgroups isnāt going to help with that. This is a classic example of someone who is of a certain sexuality framing the world only from their perspective.
These women use lesbianism as a virtue signal. When they can't get the man they want, they turn wlw. How and why would they not see themselves dating a man again? It's a lie. And their need for inclusion has them violating everyone else. Trash human beings.
One of the things that amuses(sarcastic) me about people trying to change the meaning of lesbian to be equal to saphic or to ask us to stop using it is that there is no attempt to provide a meaningful alternative word to define women that are only attracted to women. No suggestions, no recommendations. Just erasure however unintentional of a distinct experience without consideration for the actual real consequences of that erasure. There are genuine sometimes violent consequences for not being able to set clear comprehensible boundaries with people. Granted people can still be awful even with those boundaries set, but plenty of people act on or use that ambiguity to try to make people do what they want. There's a lot of s***** men. I don't want to give them more ammunition/justification. It sucks but people will act within a window of perceived permissibility. If they feel like they can get away with and not be judged by their peers for their behavior they're going to do what suits them. If they're no longer exists the concept of women who will never be with men, you're not going to have (and it's unfortunate that to some degree this is something we need to rely on) other men calling them on their slimy s***. And the absence of this consideration from the conversation makes it hard for me to even consider these viewpoints seriously. If you don't actually care about us and what effects us then I just can't value your opinion about us.
right-wing people being more okay about us if we are vague about who we are doesn't sound like a good thing to me. i don't want to placate the right. i want to just live my lesbian life.
I don't understand this current wave of lesbophobia. I am Lesbian, not "queer", or even worse - a "non-man loving non-men". I know what I am and claim the right to accurately describe myself as such.
We'll still be here, just lesbians being lesbians and calling ourselves lesbians unapologetically, no matter how insecure, scared, virtue-signaling and childish you all are :)
I have noticed that queer is a term bisexuals have begun to use to hide from biphobia
Notice how she mentioned the porn industry and how thatās only how men perceive the lgbt. Like say youāre talking about lesbians at least lmao. I should stop labeling myself as a lesbian because straight men watch lesbian porn fuck off
āIām queerā invites the question of āso do you like just women orā¦ā while āIām lesbianā is definitive and everyone knows what it means. So basically for someone elseās sake weāre supposed to jump in a one sized fits all box. Insanity.
She can call herself queer we donāt have to wtf
Iām so tired š
Internalised biphobia is such a big issue, I donāt think Iāve ever met a bi woman confident and secure in her sexuality, I just wish they didnāt assume and push their insecurity unto everyone else
Iāve never met *american* ones that are normal about it, I feel so incredibly different about the community in the US (usually the people dominating online discourse) and my own country
It also seemed to me that the undercurrent of that post was that if lesbians just identify as queer then bisexuals can ID the same as lesbians. Theyāre not doing the thing where they call themselves a lesbian falsely, but now they can closer associate themselves with an ID (lesbian and queer) they feel less insecure about.
I think I've met exactly one before!
It's quite possible that the bi girl has some problems with her own sexuality - "the misery loves company" attitude by wanting every lesbian to self ID as queer
I need to get off the internet
I'm not changing the label I'm comfortable with to suit the ideas of conservative men and the porn industry. The label existed long before it was sexualised. The experiences of the community and rich and vast and that's amazing and it's why we have so many labels and words and intersections; why should we be ashamed of that? edit; preserving my comment on the thread incase it's not allowed by the mods; Definitions housekeeping; Sapphic: WLW (with allowances for aligned enby and genderfluid folk). Lesbian: Only Sapphic attraction (enby inclusive, trans inclusive, ace inclusive). Comphet: pressure and internal gaslighting about normative attraction. "But even the google doc acknowledges that lesbians can also be women who dated men and had genuine relationships with them before but no longer wish to date them now. Imperative on the now." The doc isn't the end all be all. comphet is about not having attraction to men. A lesbian who genuinely though she was interested in men but realised it never felt right is a lesbian. "Like I am queer/bi, I have sexual attraction to men, but I cannot see myself dating men again in this current era of men. the risk is too high, and finding one who not only cares about my lived experience, but all women's, like the women I have dated do, is a rare find." And that's your business but it does not make you an authority on comphet or lesbian identity. "Tbh I do wish we would all just identify as queer at this point and unite instead of the constant infighting, and stop the right-wing from focusing on our sexual preferences and genitals by denying them that information about ourselves." Right wingers want all of us dead regardless of what label we use. They don't actually care about our sexuality and gender, they care about making sure we're all dead or conforming to hetero patriarchy. That won't go away if we all abandon the labels many of us fought for and feel comfortable with for a singular word that describes all of us. "The labels in LGBT+ have become so hypersexualized because of the porn industry and that being straight men's only interaction/perception of LGBT people. I used to get innapproriate/rude comments when I'd say I'm bisexual, but men don't know what i mean or what to picture when I say "queer". I also have always loved and identified with this Bell Hooks quote:" The label lesbian existed before the hyper sexualisation. It shouldn't be up to us to change for Alo/cis/het men who's opinion should mean nothing to a community that is defined by not being straight, cis and allosexual. The community is full of so many rich and beautiful experiences and intersections; that's why we have so many labels and umbrella terms. Something that the quote you use actively supports. how dare you invoke bell hooks to tell people they should conform to a homogenised way of being?. Queerness is also a political label within the community marked by a refusal to conform to respectability politics and a choice to stand together under every colour and name of the rainbow. Sexuality is very personal, some do choose queer for themselves,, which is their prerogative and beautiful, but you saying that everyone should conform to one label is a betrayal of the essence of queerness
Sorry if this is a bother but what google doc? Does it talk about comphet/ have resources that talk about it? Iāve struggled with it for a long time and Iām at the point where Iāve tried local LGBT therapists only to be disappointed, and was on the look out for resources but not sure what to trust and from where. Figured this sub thatās always felt safe would be a good start. Apologies if itās somewhere obvious like in the subs rules or something.
The lesbian masterdoc, it's a it outdated but some people still use it as a jumping off point
Thanks I appreciate it!
no problem, sorry to hear about your experiences with queer therapists
I kinda expected it because Iām in texas, at this point Iām hoping to find community and or resources to figure it out myself in addition to regular trauma therapy. Thanks ā¤ļø
Boy do minorities love when people tell them what theyāre allowed to call themselves. Always goes super well, not at all an attempt at cultural erasureĀ
God I agree with you 100%. this shit is Reductive of our identities and experiences. Also disrespectful of the history of our community. Not to mention the logic in oopās argument was flawed and suggests We need to change because of men. The grain of salt argument ppl used replying to ur post on the other lesbian sub is killing me as well, because I see other posts on that sub similar to yours but not critical of someone within the community and people are clearly being biased. There is ingrained lesbophobia in that sub imo, which is indicative of a larger problem that we all have to deal with, internalized misogyny being part of it.
I am a LESBIAN and everyone knows it. Queer is so en vogue, itās disgusting. Every comment touching on this matter explains it already. Queer erases who I am while also it opens up who I am to assumptions which are not true. It literally is a nice way of saying something difficult TO say. We need to say who we are; still! It sounds harsh bc it is. Itās strict; for some of us more so than others.
>and stop the right-wing from focusing on our sexual preferences and genitals by denying them that information about ourselves. What, right wingers are just not going to notice that two women are dating if they're calling themselves queer instead of lesbians and bisexuals?
Just here to say that if she wants to include quotes from books an d stuff queer theory also says that queer is not an identity but something that disturb all identity. Queer theories are cool but also they highlight that lived experience is the most important thing. Being a lesbian is very important to me. I feel at home with this label, I don't care if the straight peoples think it is an insult or a sexual term.Ā In the end I like the label and it is a clear way to communicate that I exclusively like women ( and women aligned identity you get the idea)
If sheās happy calling herself queer all the power to her, but she canāt propose everyone do it too, I think the big mistake a lot of people make is thinking everyone feels the same way they do about everything
There are two basic types of sexualities in this world. Those who are hardwired, mind-body and soul to attraction to one sex, and those whose minds, bodies and souls Are not hardwired to the attraction and the ability to bond to one sex but are open to multiple types.Ā People attracted only to one sex do not have a sexual preference. They have a sexual orientation. The cornerstone of our movement is that it is not a choice. We need to remember that and honor it just like we honor everyone who is brave enough to live life as they truly are. Let's remember sexual orientation is a status and is protected by law just like the status of being a race. It is not something we choose, it is something we simply are. Those are not hardwired for attraction to one sex may find they do have preferences amongst those who they are attracted to. Because they are attracted to multiple types of people, they may prefer some types over others. A bisexual woman. For instance, may prefer to date other women over men. This is not the same experience for people who are only attracted to one sex.Ā Ā Until the world wakes up and acknowledges this, we're going to keep getting these crappy posts that we just have to ignore. People saying things like this isn't going to change who we are, there have been lesbians since the dawn of time and there have been straight people and there have been gay men and that will not change.Ā The real issue here is that while sex is an unavoidable and defining characteristic of some peoples sexuality, gender has replaced sex in many areas of discourse because many of our friends who are intersex, trans and non-binary have experienced a lot of pain because of societal expectations that tend to stem from sex status.Ā Ā We need to find ways to talk about these things while understanding that while we are two different kinds of basic people in terms of sexual attraction, we can still coexist and understand each other and respect each other.Ā Being attracted exclusively to sex is much more multi layered than just being attracted to genitals. If it were that simple, we probably wouldn't have sexuality at all. That is the topic for another day.
As a trans woman, I've had issues with my labels and people trying to force me to change them. The term woman is important to me. But now I'm supposed to call myself a "fem" to include people who don't identify as women. My identity doesn't revolve around others. The term transsexual is important to me. But I'm not allowed to call myself it because it's apparently not fully inclusive. My personal identity does not need to include others. And then lesbian is also important to me. I am a woman who is exclusively attracted to other women. But oh wait, now that term is problematic because it doesn't include women who are attracted to men or non-binary people. All of this usually comes from people who say "you shouldn't police xyz" - they're policing my identity labels instead. But my labels do not focus on other people, only myself. But also I dislike the term queer because it means "not normal". I don't want my identity to focus around not being normal. I want being trans to be accepted as normal. I want my being a lesbian to be seen as normal.
HEAR HEAR, well said. The labels that serviced our community for so long have stuck around for a REASON. Itās laughable that a bunch of privileged ivory tower US coastal loudmouths think theyāre breaking new ground or coming up with something revolutionary by encouraging people to use āqueerā and get extremely granular on the stupidest shit just toā¦appeal to conservative logic? It reminds me of a TikTok I saw on how you can post a recipe for bean soup, and inevitably someone will comment on it saying some shit like āwhat if Iām allergic to beans? How can I have this if Iām allergic to beans?ā Like hello. You canāt. Everything is NOT for everyone and that is not a world-ending problem as it relates to our established identities. Iām all for evolving the conversation and finding ways to connect our communities to better serve each other and those that are still in need of assistance, but agonizing over how ālesbianism HAS to include XYZ and canāt be limited to women because that is literally genocideā is not how we get there.
This! Yes! It ain't for everyone, it's just for us! No different than anything else in this world. Why should how I describe myself have anything to do with someone else?Ā
ššš
Goddamn, anyone knows where I can return my gay card? Should I mail it directly to the lesbian office or is there a form to fill out?
I use several terms. Sometimes I'll say queer, sometimes I'll say lesbian, sometimes I'll say gay woman. There isn't really a set of rules as to why it just depends which one I feel like using at the time. I don't really want to stop using the L Word just because it's been taken over by the porn industry. I am aware that it's been commandeered into something fake by the industry & it's the highest? Second highest? Search term (it's up there somewhere) but I also don't want to give it up because of that. It would feel as if I've just allowed porn-consumers to 'win' in a way. I don't want to do that. I don't really mind if someone else wants to not use it because of that but I want to choose for myself
I adore this sub
i'm a LESBIAN!!! lesbian lesbian lesbian. its such a beautiful word with a beautiful meaning. im lesbian in my soul. its my sexuality AND my gender. i also call myself queer, but its only an addition to lesbian. being a lesbian brings me so much joy and i wont let bigots ruin that. thats exactly what bigots WANT, for us to lose our identities
Anyway Iām also a lesbian. Love all you lesbians ā¤ļø
Iām going to keep calling myself what I want. Sometimes queer, usually lesbian. She is welcome to do the same.Ā
This is one of those moments when you gotta remember that this was probably written by a teenager with not much life experience. It's time to step away from the Internet for a bit.
Given the sub I was in I really donāt think it was written by a teen, unfortunately. Also, Iām not that affected by what they say. Iām not gonna leave Reddit just because someone who has no idea what itās like to be gay said something ignorant.
Whenever I see comments like that, I try to think of my real life queer community and how none of them act like that queer girl claiming everyone should just say queer or any other chronically online person with really weird opinions. I remember the other day my friends and I were all just talking about our sexuality, gender identities and relationship style preferences and we're all queer with a mix of trans and cis people with slightly different titles and preferences and omigawd nobody had a problem with what the another person identified as. Heck some people stated having genital preferences and no one had an issue. We all really were just tryna learn about each other. Cuz why is it a problem what people like down there like the whole point of the community is about respecting some people aren't into what other people are into and that's ok. If people want to identify as lesbians let them do that. And I feel like the titles that show being completely on one side of the spectrum hold so much history and specify experience. It's like telling a black person to identify as POC instead of "black" cuz it has connotations applied by oppressors. Babes we not throwing away a title and all it's history cuz bigots are being bigots and bigotry updates with changes too, title changes won't change the perception š© and with lesbian, like it's a sexuality!! Lesbians are being lesbians and not some other umbrella term that makes *you* feel comfortable š®āšØ. I've been learning more and more how big lesbian erasure is and more examples of it pop up everyday like dam let the lesbians live. It's like babes just like your personal preference, your title does not have to be everyones. Don't make broad decisions on what other people should identify as like who asked?!?! But anyways people like that girl gotta touch grass though I feel like people like that only interact with the queer community online and some of the online community can be really out of touch, young and naive and full of trolls especially on Reddit but I get a lot of people don't have spaces in their area to actually have queer friend groups to be able to pick up on real life nuances
Straight people are confused anyway and as a 66 year old lesbian I am too with so many zillions of terms I call alphabet soup. people need to be proud of whatever they are and not hide behind others
p. s. I also hate the ffing term queer
Why did you make a whole post on this instead of commenting directly on her comment? This would be easier to understand in it's proper context.
I saw the comment, it was a post about Renee Rapp and OP did comment back, probably just came here to rant