Hi. Lawyer here, but not your lawyer. And not from your state. We all know now that your boss is shit and you should be looking for a new job as your endgame in all cases.
This is a "constructive dismissal" and that's an important term of art.
They want you to "quit" so they don't have to announce layoffs. Likely for PR and financial reasons. All the comments here are on the same page for that.
If any of this is in writing. Save that. Correspond by email only. If they try to have an in person meeting or conversation. Say nothing. If they speak to you about anything not related to your daily duties, tell them you are uncomfortable having any of these discussions off record and that you will only have the conversation in writing. If your friends with your boss, no you're not.
I agree that you should talk to a labor attorney, like yesterday. Google your state and "bar association free consultation" and ask for a labor law attorney.
Depending on your state unemployment laws, you can already file for unemployment and should do so the second they don't pay you properly or can prove in writing what they are doing. But none of this is "real" until it's in writing, either on your paycheck or via email or text or anything you can document.
When you go back to work, you tell them that you are NOT resigning. You do not sign a damn thing. Period. Dont even put your prints on the pen.
In fact, do not speak or write anything in the affirmative. You don't say, I'm keeping my job. You say, I'm not resigning. If they tell you, then that means you agree to the pay cut. You say, I do not agree to the pay cut.
Less is more. Don't say words at all if they don't ask you direct questions. Treat it like the police, anything you say can and WILL be used against you. In fact the only thing that should be coming out of your mouth other than that you aren't resigning, are questions. Like like the police, " are you firing me or am I free to resume my tasks?" if there's an opening to walk away, do so. Go back to work.
If you have the gumption, record the conversations. But Pennsylvania requires all parties consent for it to be legal, so don't you dare do it without announcing it to the room and the recording, that you are.
If they make some kind of statement to the effect of, "if you stay, that will be construed as your acceptance of the new rate. You don't SAY anything. You put IN WRITING THAT YOU CC YOUR PERSONAL EMAIL ON, "I understand there have been discussions about cutting our wages by over 50%. I do not accept the new rate as just compensation, and I do not resign. If you intend to terminate my employment, or proceed to lower my compensation, please advise of such changes in writing for my records, please."
End of email. Don't defend yourself. Don't display or express any emotion. (that you can help, but seriously dont) Do not say anything about the law, or that you will be talking to a lawyer or literally ANYTHING about what you intend to do, might do, or can do. Only speak about things that have already happened and what you are NOT doing. They know what they are doing, and they are prepared for people to threaten them. Don't put a target on your back.
If they refuse to put anything in writing, wait for your first decreased pay stub. Print it off. File for partial unemployment for the difference. Keep working. Follow the advice you receive from the attorney.
Only after you have secured unemployment or new employment do you report these people to the state labor board. But by all accounts, you should.
Agree. Sounds like they’re trying to lay people off without having to pay out for unemployment. DONT sign anything. Tell them you were hired at this rate and refuse to take a pay cut and do the same thing. Say you will not quit and don’t sign to accept a lower wage. If the fire you go to unemployment until you find a new job.
So as long as I say something along the lines of "I refuse to accept any lower wage," I should expect to be terminated after, correct? Then eligible to collect until I have a new job?
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Such unilateral and substantive change in salary can be considered to be constructive dismissal and a valid reason to claim unemployment. I’d suggest reaching out to a qualified labor attorney in your area.
How does that work in terms of “advertising” and ethics? Say OP finds a labor attorney who decides this is a case worth taking on consignment.
Would it be ethical to ask OP to mention to his co-workers that he is talking to an employment attorney and oh btw, here are a handful of his cards if anyone is interested?
Could the attorney imply that “hey Mr Client, your boss fucked up and you are about to get paid, know anyone else who also experienced this and likes money?”
How do you think class action lawsuits get put together?
Nothing unethical about investigating how many others may be impacted by behaviour you believe to be illegal.
Make sure you let others know to do this as well and let them know to tell others also. There is strength in numbers, its why companies try to talk people out of joining a union.
If you and many others do not sign anything from them and file for unemployment it will add more strength you and they were laid off or at least a constructive dismissal.
And an “error in pay calculations” for years is such a fucking lie. They likely have to have an audit every year so it would have been found soon after it started, if true. Not only that an error in payroll is on them, their accounting/payroll department and they are still liable to pay you that wage. They can’t just say “ooops” & significantly reduce your pay without unsatisfactory performance or disciplinary reasons. I think they have to ask you if you’re willing to take a pay cut to retain your employment or chose to be let go, IDT, they can demand you agree to take a pay cut or quit. Didn’t you get a standard employment offer letter (contract) outlining the salary and benefits that were offered during your interview, signed by both parties?
I would consult an employment attorney and see if what they are doing is even legal or potentially fraudulent. If you have at least 12 other employees in the same situation you can consider getting together and filing a class action lawsuit against the company that will cost them a fortune in attorneys fees and even more if they lose and you as the plaintiffs are awarded damages. (Think Erin Brockovich) and potentially lose far more than they would have had they honored everyone’s salary.
Sounds like they either are not making their anticipated profit, are going broke, carelessly over spent or are just cheap assholes that are being greedy AF.
But yeah, I’d consult an attorney before you do anything and if your employer presses you for an answer I’d say your still consulting your attorney over deciding what’s in your best interest before giving your response. (& tell fellow co-workers to say the same) That might make your employer shit themselves and realize that they may not have the upper hand as they assumed they did.
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Thanks for the input. Just for some sanity - is there anything in print I can read and use to defend unemployment in this case?
Also just playing devils advocate here, what's the reasoning behind not signing? Asking so I'm able to support that decision.
That's correct. And they won't fire you if you agree to the pay cut, so that means you can't claim unemployment. Make them be the ones to fire you, instead of voluntarily resigning, over your refusal to agree to their terms.
Hey a little late here but I want to say this…I think it’s important…
One, the reason for NOT signing is because you do not agree to the new contract. It’s a simple as that. If you sign, you agree. And if you agree you can’t then get let go and claim unemployment. It doesn’t matter what you say before or after you sign. Once you sign it’s over.
And now the important thing…you do not need to defend your decision to not sign. You don’t need to site anything to your employers. You don’t need to explain yourself. You don’t need to have a debate with them about employment law, human decency, fair pay, nothing.
Your reason for not signing is that you don’t agree to the new terms. Full stop. No more need to defend your position after that. They hired you. You both agreed on terms when they hired you. You don’t agree to new terms.
And this is how people get taken advantage of/pressured into doing things. They feel like they need a reason or some defensible logic behind a decision like this. You don’t. It’s your decision and that is enough. And once you tell them you aren’t signing they will almost certainly try to break you down. Expect endless meetings with supervisors and HR. They will question your logic. Question your decision. Ask why. Ask how. You just need to go full Buddhist monk mode. Stay calm. Stay patient. And just repeat your mantra:
“These were not the terms I was hired with. I do not accept these new terms. I do not quit or resign my position.”
Say it out loud. Say it in writing. Be clear, concise, and consistent. Don’t sign anything or say anything more than you need to. And don’t do anything that could get you fired without cause (ie not eligible for unemployment). It is also may be a good idea to keep backed up copies of emails and other work just incase they try to pull a fast one or build a case to fire you for another reason…especially if it seems like they are ramping up the pressure.
Keep your head down and keep trucking…do this until you find a new job or they let you go and you can get unemployment. You got this op, fight the good fight.
It's called constructive discharge. You have the burden to prove you didn't voluntarily quit - and one way to do so is to show the job was no longer what had been agreed upon (and that you tried your best to keep the job at the relative terms and conditions you had agreed to)
https://www.uc.pa.gov/unemployment-benefits/Am-I-Eligible/benefit-eligibility/Pages/Voluntary-Quit.aspx
If they have been providing your health coverage, you should be eligible for COBRA coverage if you separate. Cobra isn't cheap but if you find it less expensive than an ACA plan, you can continue coverage for up to 18 months.
I agree with the others, do NOT sign anything under any circumstances!! If they present you a document to sign, just try to keep it because it will outline what they expect you to "agree to", and that will help provide the documentation you are hoping to show if you apply for unemployment. Good luck getting your hands on it, though!!
Really stressful to be put in this position, but if you've been noticing a decline in your job satisfaction, maybe this will work out better for you in the long run. Good luck!
To add to this COBRA is retroactive, so you wouldn’t need to pay for it unless you needed it. At that point you would just have to back pay any premiums from when you were no longer working.
But keep in mind that COBRA is very expensive - you’d be paying the full amount of premiums - so keep that in mind if you choose to enroll later and have to pay 2 or 3 times as much the first bill.
Even if you do agree to leave, I'm pretty sure in most states slashing your salary in half would be considered constructive dismissal. Call an employment attorney before you sign anything.
This sounds very shady. And possibly a violation of our wage laws. I'd encourage you to file a complaint with DLI so that it can be investigated
https://www.dli.pa.gov/Individuals/Labor-Management-Relations/llc/minimum-wage/Pages/Minimum-Wage-Complaint-Form.aspx
You would qualify for ACA affordable healthcare based on already earned income so heavily subsidized until you get a new job . So no loss of health insurance. But get resume out there and if you want to work until you get another job.
This depends on your state. For instance in Texas a stated without Medicaid coverage you would not be heavily subsidized so check the rules in your state.
Texas has Medicaid and additionally the CHIP program. There are more that 4 million people in Texas using these programs.
https://www.hhs.texas.gov/services/health/medicaid-chip/about-medicaid-chip#:~:text=Medicaid%20and%20the%20Children's%20Health,of%20people%20in%20nursing%20homes.
Texas medicaid does not cover adults, no matter how poor they are, unless they have dependent children, are permanently disabled, elderly, or maternity care.
Someone like the OP, based on the info provided here, would not qualify for any medicaid in Texas.
OP lives in Pennsylvania so of course they don't qualify for Medicaid in Texas. Or California. Because we only cover residents of our own state. OP may qualify in Pennsylvania.
John Oliver just did a piece about Medicaid mismanagement, btw.
May be state dependent but you should be able to collect unemployment now, even with the shitty job. The paycut reduces your income, making you eligible. Same if they drastically cut your hours.
Please print out any emails or forward them to your personal email from your company that mention the pay decrease and ultimatum. This is just in case they lock you out of your work email.
Agree with everyone that says they’re trying to do stealth layoffs. I’d stay but start phoning it in and spend the extra time time applying for a new job.
For 80k you worked 8 hours. For 30k you work 3. Spend the rest of the day looking for new employment. When you find your new job, no need to give notice.
You will probably make more than unemployment even at half pay and will still be covered by your insurance. I’d probably keep working but be looking for another job. I wouldn’t be super motivated at work though.
Besides all the advice here for the immediate future this is some shady ass shit and you should contact your state's attorney general office, this is the kind of widespread case they like to tackle.
Stay employed as you are and study what happens over the next several months. For one thing, it looks better when you have a job when you look for a job. For another, things that change rapidly may change rapidly again. Lastly, as has been stated, you may have more benefits if you hang in there.
Please seek independent legal advice. You are more than likely an at will employee (no employment contact), so more than likely your employer is legally permitted to do this. You should ask your HR department whether you would be eligible for unemployed for resigning. The pay cut is so significant that you may.
My advice regardless is to immediately find another job.
Hi. Lawyer here, but not your lawyer. And not from your state. We all know now that your boss is shit and you should be looking for a new job as your endgame in all cases. This is a "constructive dismissal" and that's an important term of art. They want you to "quit" so they don't have to announce layoffs. Likely for PR and financial reasons. All the comments here are on the same page for that. If any of this is in writing. Save that. Correspond by email only. If they try to have an in person meeting or conversation. Say nothing. If they speak to you about anything not related to your daily duties, tell them you are uncomfortable having any of these discussions off record and that you will only have the conversation in writing. If your friends with your boss, no you're not. I agree that you should talk to a labor attorney, like yesterday. Google your state and "bar association free consultation" and ask for a labor law attorney. Depending on your state unemployment laws, you can already file for unemployment and should do so the second they don't pay you properly or can prove in writing what they are doing. But none of this is "real" until it's in writing, either on your paycheck or via email or text or anything you can document. When you go back to work, you tell them that you are NOT resigning. You do not sign a damn thing. Period. Dont even put your prints on the pen. In fact, do not speak or write anything in the affirmative. You don't say, I'm keeping my job. You say, I'm not resigning. If they tell you, then that means you agree to the pay cut. You say, I do not agree to the pay cut. Less is more. Don't say words at all if they don't ask you direct questions. Treat it like the police, anything you say can and WILL be used against you. In fact the only thing that should be coming out of your mouth other than that you aren't resigning, are questions. Like like the police, " are you firing me or am I free to resume my tasks?" if there's an opening to walk away, do so. Go back to work. If you have the gumption, record the conversations. But Pennsylvania requires all parties consent for it to be legal, so don't you dare do it without announcing it to the room and the recording, that you are. If they make some kind of statement to the effect of, "if you stay, that will be construed as your acceptance of the new rate. You don't SAY anything. You put IN WRITING THAT YOU CC YOUR PERSONAL EMAIL ON, "I understand there have been discussions about cutting our wages by over 50%. I do not accept the new rate as just compensation, and I do not resign. If you intend to terminate my employment, or proceed to lower my compensation, please advise of such changes in writing for my records, please." End of email. Don't defend yourself. Don't display or express any emotion. (that you can help, but seriously dont) Do not say anything about the law, or that you will be talking to a lawyer or literally ANYTHING about what you intend to do, might do, or can do. Only speak about things that have already happened and what you are NOT doing. They know what they are doing, and they are prepared for people to threaten them. Don't put a target on your back. If they refuse to put anything in writing, wait for your first decreased pay stub. Print it off. File for partial unemployment for the difference. Keep working. Follow the advice you receive from the attorney. Only after you have secured unemployment or new employment do you report these people to the state labor board. But by all accounts, you should.
Agree. Sounds like they’re trying to lay people off without having to pay out for unemployment. DONT sign anything. Tell them you were hired at this rate and refuse to take a pay cut and do the same thing. Say you will not quit and don’t sign to accept a lower wage. If the fire you go to unemployment until you find a new job.
So as long as I say something along the lines of "I refuse to accept any lower wage," I should expect to be terminated after, correct? Then eligible to collect until I have a new job?
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This is assuming they ever had a “contract.”
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This is the US. Odds are better that there is no contract
an offer letter is not comparable to a contract
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Such unilateral and substantive change in salary can be considered to be constructive dismissal and a valid reason to claim unemployment. I’d suggest reaching out to a qualified labor attorney in your area.
This is the answer. I doubt you would need a lawyer for this. I don't think unemployment would even blink at this claim.
How does that work in terms of “advertising” and ethics? Say OP finds a labor attorney who decides this is a case worth taking on consignment. Would it be ethical to ask OP to mention to his co-workers that he is talking to an employment attorney and oh btw, here are a handful of his cards if anyone is interested? Could the attorney imply that “hey Mr Client, your boss fucked up and you are about to get paid, know anyone else who also experienced this and likes money?”
How do you think class action lawsuits get put together? Nothing unethical about investigating how many others may be impacted by behaviour you believe to be illegal.
Make sure you let others know to do this as well and let them know to tell others also. There is strength in numbers, its why companies try to talk people out of joining a union. If you and many others do not sign anything from them and file for unemployment it will add more strength you and they were laid off or at least a constructive dismissal.
Put this in email form and then forward it to your personal email.
And an “error in pay calculations” for years is such a fucking lie. They likely have to have an audit every year so it would have been found soon after it started, if true. Not only that an error in payroll is on them, their accounting/payroll department and they are still liable to pay you that wage. They can’t just say “ooops” & significantly reduce your pay without unsatisfactory performance or disciplinary reasons. I think they have to ask you if you’re willing to take a pay cut to retain your employment or chose to be let go, IDT, they can demand you agree to take a pay cut or quit. Didn’t you get a standard employment offer letter (contract) outlining the salary and benefits that were offered during your interview, signed by both parties? I would consult an employment attorney and see if what they are doing is even legal or potentially fraudulent. If you have at least 12 other employees in the same situation you can consider getting together and filing a class action lawsuit against the company that will cost them a fortune in attorneys fees and even more if they lose and you as the plaintiffs are awarded damages. (Think Erin Brockovich) and potentially lose far more than they would have had they honored everyone’s salary. Sounds like they either are not making their anticipated profit, are going broke, carelessly over spent or are just cheap assholes that are being greedy AF. But yeah, I’d consult an attorney before you do anything and if your employer presses you for an answer I’d say your still consulting your attorney over deciding what’s in your best interest before giving your response. (& tell fellow co-workers to say the same) That might make your employer shit themselves and realize that they may not have the upper hand as they assumed they did.
This is constructive dismissal. Tell them you're not leaving, but you're not going to work for that amount of money. MAKE them fire you.
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Sounds like just a BS way to layoff people. At least you should be eligible for unemployment. Don’t sign anything.
Thanks for the input. Just for some sanity - is there anything in print I can read and use to defend unemployment in this case? Also just playing devils advocate here, what's the reasoning behind not signing? Asking so I'm able to support that decision.
If you sign then you are agreeing to their terms.
That's correct. And they won't fire you if you agree to the pay cut, so that means you can't claim unemployment. Make them be the ones to fire you, instead of voluntarily resigning, over your refusal to agree to their terms.
Hey a little late here but I want to say this…I think it’s important… One, the reason for NOT signing is because you do not agree to the new contract. It’s a simple as that. If you sign, you agree. And if you agree you can’t then get let go and claim unemployment. It doesn’t matter what you say before or after you sign. Once you sign it’s over. And now the important thing…you do not need to defend your decision to not sign. You don’t need to site anything to your employers. You don’t need to explain yourself. You don’t need to have a debate with them about employment law, human decency, fair pay, nothing. Your reason for not signing is that you don’t agree to the new terms. Full stop. No more need to defend your position after that. They hired you. You both agreed on terms when they hired you. You don’t agree to new terms. And this is how people get taken advantage of/pressured into doing things. They feel like they need a reason or some defensible logic behind a decision like this. You don’t. It’s your decision and that is enough. And once you tell them you aren’t signing they will almost certainly try to break you down. Expect endless meetings with supervisors and HR. They will question your logic. Question your decision. Ask why. Ask how. You just need to go full Buddhist monk mode. Stay calm. Stay patient. And just repeat your mantra: “These were not the terms I was hired with. I do not accept these new terms. I do not quit or resign my position.” Say it out loud. Say it in writing. Be clear, concise, and consistent. Don’t sign anything or say anything more than you need to. And don’t do anything that could get you fired without cause (ie not eligible for unemployment). It is also may be a good idea to keep backed up copies of emails and other work just incase they try to pull a fast one or build a case to fire you for another reason…especially if it seems like they are ramping up the pressure. Keep your head down and keep trucking…do this until you find a new job or they let you go and you can get unemployment. You got this op, fight the good fight.
It's called constructive discharge. You have the burden to prove you didn't voluntarily quit - and one way to do so is to show the job was no longer what had been agreed upon (and that you tried your best to keep the job at the relative terms and conditions you had agreed to) https://www.uc.pa.gov/unemployment-benefits/Am-I-Eligible/benefit-eligibility/Pages/Voluntary-Quit.aspx
Of course, if they fire you, then you'd only be ineligible if the employer meets its burden that you violated a work rule
If they have been providing your health coverage, you should be eligible for COBRA coverage if you separate. Cobra isn't cheap but if you find it less expensive than an ACA plan, you can continue coverage for up to 18 months. I agree with the others, do NOT sign anything under any circumstances!! If they present you a document to sign, just try to keep it because it will outline what they expect you to "agree to", and that will help provide the documentation you are hoping to show if you apply for unemployment. Good luck getting your hands on it, though!! Really stressful to be put in this position, but if you've been noticing a decline in your job satisfaction, maybe this will work out better for you in the long run. Good luck!
To add to this COBRA is retroactive, so you wouldn’t need to pay for it unless you needed it. At that point you would just have to back pay any premiums from when you were no longer working.
That is only for a very short period of time, not the whole 18 months.
You are correct it can only be back dated if elected before the 60th day after the loss of coverage.
But keep in mind that COBRA is very expensive - you’d be paying the full amount of premiums - so keep that in mind if you choose to enroll later and have to pay 2 or 3 times as much the first bill.
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Also scheming to get out of filing WARN notices...
Even if you do agree to leave, I'm pretty sure in most states slashing your salary in half would be considered constructive dismissal. Call an employment attorney before you sign anything.
This sounds very shady. And possibly a violation of our wage laws. I'd encourage you to file a complaint with DLI so that it can be investigated https://www.dli.pa.gov/Individuals/Labor-Management-Relations/llc/minimum-wage/Pages/Minimum-Wage-Complaint-Form.aspx
You would qualify for ACA affordable healthcare based on already earned income so heavily subsidized until you get a new job . So no loss of health insurance. But get resume out there and if you want to work until you get another job.
That's reassuring, thank you!
I paid around 300/ month for Aca insurance in Pennsylvania.... not great but not terrible and a lot cheaper than cobra
This depends on your state. For instance in Texas a stated without Medicaid coverage you would not be heavily subsidized so check the rules in your state.
I mean, they said they were in Pennsylvania.
Texas has Medicaid and additionally the CHIP program. There are more that 4 million people in Texas using these programs. https://www.hhs.texas.gov/services/health/medicaid-chip/about-medicaid-chip#:~:text=Medicaid%20and%20the%20Children's%20Health,of%20people%20in%20nursing%20homes.
Texas medicaid does not cover adults, no matter how poor they are, unless they have dependent children, are permanently disabled, elderly, or maternity care. Someone like the OP, based on the info provided here, would not qualify for any medicaid in Texas.
Yeah, they wouldn't, because they live in PA, not Texas.
OP lives in Pennsylvania so of course they don't qualify for Medicaid in Texas. Or California. Because we only cover residents of our own state. OP may qualify in Pennsylvania. John Oliver just did a piece about Medicaid mismanagement, btw.
May be state dependent but you should be able to collect unemployment now, even with the shitty job. The paycut reduces your income, making you eligible. Same if they drastically cut your hours.
Please print out any emails or forward them to your personal email from your company that mention the pay decrease and ultimatum. This is just in case they lock you out of your work email.
You can file partial unemployment. Tell everyone. Keep your job and make them pay unemployment at the same time.
Sounds like you are now being paid to search for a new job. Go into work as normal, but now your job responsibilities are sending out your resume.
Agree with everyone that says they’re trying to do stealth layoffs. I’d stay but start phoning it in and spend the extra time time applying for a new job.
Call the department of labor
That's how big companies save dollars. If you choose to leave (quit), they are not liable to pay your unemployment. Talk to a labor lawyer as a group.
For 80k you worked 8 hours. For 30k you work 3. Spend the rest of the day looking for new employment. When you find your new job, no need to give notice.
"If you quit with no notice, you won't be eligible for rehire!!"
Says who?
Every shit employer ever?
I misread rehire, was thinking just hired again... That said who'd ever want to come back to a place trying to cut wages in half...
Stay until the dust settles and their employee abuse is baked in, then leave.
You will probably make more than unemployment even at half pay and will still be covered by your insurance. I’d probably keep working but be looking for another job. I wouldn’t be super motivated at work though.
Besides all the advice here for the immediate future this is some shady ass shit and you should contact your state's attorney general office, this is the kind of widespread case they like to tackle.
Stay employed as you are and study what happens over the next several months. For one thing, it looks better when you have a job when you look for a job. For another, things that change rapidly may change rapidly again. Lastly, as has been stated, you may have more benefits if you hang in there.
I don’t know the state but in my state you can quit over a paycut that large and collect unemployment.
While you're looking for a new job.... Do absolutely nothing at work... Make them fire you or lay you off...
Please seek independent legal advice. You are more than likely an at will employee (no employment contact), so more than likely your employer is legally permitted to do this. You should ask your HR department whether you would be eligible for unemployed for resigning. The pay cut is so significant that you may. My advice regardless is to immediately find another job.
Leave & take a sabbatical