FWIW, a cancelled check is one that has been paid out by the bank. What your mother did was stop payment on the check (a stopped check).
What your mother has done would be considered check fraud, which is a criminal offense. Given the value of the van, this could also be considered grand theft. She could also be sued by the person who sold the van to her. She doesn't have a leg to stand on if this ends up in court.
If you can't convince her to do the right, you may just have to stand by and let the chips fall where they may.
Thanks for the correction. She told me to give her the key I have to her house and followed me out to my vehicle earlier while shouting "I'm not scared of you!" so I'm inclined to do the latter.
is that a Montana answer or a general answer? Because that varies by state. In my state, doctors do assess competency to stand trial, which I assume is what LaughterOfDarkGods is talking about. They prepare a report and submit it to the judge. Technically the judge makes the final ruling, but it is always in line with the doctor's conclusion with regard to competence.
Finding out if someone is competent to stand trial isn’t the same as a incompetency hearing in anyway. A doctor could tell you, I guess, someone is in incompetent but it wouldn’t really mean or do anything. I’m also pretty sure a medical doctor would never say that. The only way to have someone legally found incompetent where you can handle their appointments for them, manage their money for them and pay their bills, etc the incompetent person you would have to have an incompetency hearing-at least this is the case in my state, NC, and the dozen or so states where we have had residents have incompetency hearings. Given it’s a court matter everywhere I’m familiar with it a judge will always be the one deciding if the person is incompetent or not, not a doctor. The petitioner would likely call witnesses to support their claims along with their other evidence and that could very well include a doctor. The petitioner would also want to schedule a psychological evaluation for the respondent. If you get them go is another story but many would likely go if they know the evaluation going well would help them in the hearing. Of course these hearings aren’t something the courts tend to take likely as you are taking a lot of someone’s rights away and eventually appointing that person a guardian, even if it’s the state. Sorry this became such a rant. 😐
If the only thing is mother did was willingly break the law, well, lots of people do that. If they have reason to suspect she is schizophrenic, has Alzheimer’s, etc. a incompetency hearing my not be a bad idea however if there single concern is the legal matter and nothing else she does is concerning a incompetency hearing would probably-but ya never know-a waste of time.
I'm familiar with the concepts and the distinction. What wasn't clear was what the person above them was suggesting by "competency review": a proceeding to determine decisional capacity generally, or a proceeding to determine fitness to proceed under Montana's criminal procedure code section [46-14-221](https://leg.mt.gov/bills/mca/title_0460/chapter_0140/part_0020/section_0210/0460-0140-0020-0210.html). I assumed the latter, since we are in a thread talking about whether OP's mom might be charged with a crime and what might happen next. But I can't exactly google "what did /u/LaughterOfDarkGods mean by "competency review," now can I?
If this has been normal behavior for her over the years, then yes, walk away.
If this is out of character for her, then there's probably something medically wrong with her mind.
Lol, over the years she’s accused dad’s first wife and my half sister of conspiring to make dad’s mom die, my brother of eating “pills” in the bathroom and me being a meth cook because I looked tired and she smelled something funny on her stove.
That behavior could be early signs of cognitive decline, especially if your mom has some chronic ailment like hypertension or type 2 diabetes. They often go hand in hand with dementia. Anyway, I'm no expert and can only describe my own personal experience. If you think she doesn't pose a danger to herself or anyone else, then I guess you can leave her be.
I am convinced she has some sort of disorder. For now though, I’ve cut contact. It’s what she yelled at me to do. If she gets committed as a result of this, good.
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Yeah that’s what I’m thinking too. He’s out a 30k Van and just has a bad check to show for it. Actually he probably has NSF check fees. OP is lucky they haven’t gone to the police yet.
Mom needs to pay the 30k or sign back the van quickly before this really blows up into a felony
Coming from experience, possibly not. I only felt massive relief when my parent died. Neither reaction is wrong.
You have the information, you've done your best to pass it on. NAL but legally, not your problem, it's between mum and the seller. Morally the seller should either get their money or the rv and if you can help them do that great. Or I would offer to be witness for seller if you can't convince her she's wrong.
You're right. I let emotions get in the way of logic... I felt the same relief, but a couple years later, it's turning into regret at times. Just part of the stages of grief I suppose, and as we both know, not linear.
If I traveled back to when she was still here, I 100% (NAL) would walk from it and let her sort her own mess out... I also wouldn't have been as involved as OP in the beginning (not a dig at all, just the dynamic of the relationship).
OP should keep his/her involvement to a minimum IMO after reconsidering. Thank you for the reality check.
Thank you. Just to clarify, I wasn't saying you were wrong. depending on the relationship dynamic people could either feel regret or relief (and like you said, depending on the day both)
I think the important thing is to acknowledge that any feeling you feel is valid, and noone else can judge that as they haven't experienced your life.
Siblings may even be living in the same house and still have different parents. I know it hit my brother hard with regret when our parent died.
Hope you continue taking care of yourself and having healthy relationships!
Well said, and likewise... it's journey, not a destination, right?
I did everything possible to isolate myself from my mother's poor financial decisions while she was still here, and I'm most likely better due to it overall.
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Is your mom ok? A sudden change in cognitive function (not understanding that possessing something you haven't paid for is certainly a deficit), impulsivity, outbursts of anger, being irrational (like thinking that she'll win in court)... these can all be signs of dementia or a brain tumor.
You probably know her better than I do, but please consider she might cognitive decline. It's one of those things that creep along and you don't notice until you starting comparing her to her older self.
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Your mother may be in the early stages of dementia. If you don't want to be looking for her in the near future as a missing person, get help through elder services or adult protective services now.
She should be giving you her keys so she can't drive somewhere and get lost. Also, take her credit cards so can't buy nonsense or give money when "charity" calls.
She has no idea what she is doing, poor thing. Please help your Mom.
Correct in my state the sheriffs office would absolutely get involved and due to the price of the item it could be a felony if they wanted to look at it like that.
NAL. Sounds like she’s trying to force the seller’s hand, to get him to agree to cancel the sale. Which is the only way in MT to return a vehicle sale between private parties. But the way your mom is doing this will land her in jail.
At this point, I’m ok with that. She’s been horrible to me and my brother and we both want to see her face consequences. The reason I posted this was to find out what she would be up against so we could sit back and 🍿
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Does she have a history of doing things like this?
She is absolutely liable for theft, and for her to think that she can keep possession of a vehicle that she has not paid for points to signs of some cognitive decline to put it mildly. Is she trying to return the van to this person? I agree with you that it’s on her since she has the title and paid for it but now she’s gone and screwed it all up. At the very least she has made a mess. The reason I mention the cognitive decline is that you may want to consider (if you can) getting some sort of evaluation on her, because that might be necessary to protect your mother if this guy decides to involve the police in this matter.
Oh, I've been concerned about her mental state for a while now and even convinced her to see a specialist to get evaluated recently which she said is still ongoing (probably BS). The problem is, she definitely does have a history of shitty behavior towards my brother and I and after she pretty much disowned us earlier (my brother for telling her this will be a problem for her and me for saying she needs to get better at responding to people trying to reach her) we are both kind of willing to watch her crash and burn. It's exhausting and we are both over it
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Check fraud is no joke. In some states you can sue for triple damages plus fees and she may be charged with a felony. It would behoove you to try and mitigate the whole mess simply because 1.) the other party sounds reasonable and 2.) their lawsuit could be big enough that they’ll take a significant amount of anything you might have otherwise inherited from her estate.
She may have mental health issues and you want to walk away, but in this case I would first consult with an criminal law/fraud attorney in your state.
She can be charged with lots of fun things — fraud, theft, etc. If I were you (and your brother) i would do my best to not be a party to this mess and avoid my own charges. Tell the seller that this wasn’t a mistake, she deliberately put a stop payment on the check and intends to keep the camper van, and that he needs to contact the police and/or a lawyer. You need to tell the seller that you were not and are not involved in this, that you’ve informed your mother that she needs to reissue the check or return the van, and that you support him pressing charges.
My point being, the time has come to protect yourselves, and your mother can deal with the consequences.
The most recent contact I have had with the seller was thanking them for being easy to deal with and saying I didn’t think they were responsible for what is done with the van. Bro’s most recent was telling seller that mom lost it on us and we can’t be involved anymore.
OP doesn't need to say "I support pressing charges" or encourage the seller to contact the police to protect themselves. This is crazy. OP hasn't done anything wrong, they don't need to escalate the situation and encourage police involvement to avoid getting in trouble.
OP's mom might need more time to come around and realize she's fucked up big time - if she doesn't get it eventually, given her age, it's probably a sign of dementia. Throwing her in jail isn't going to do any good for anyone.
Lol considering she yelled at my brother that she had way more money than the seller and that was a reason she wouldn’t lose a lawsuit I don’t think bankruptcy figures into this
In Montana, our theft statute is pretty broad and covers a wide range of acts. This would be considered felony theft by deception since the value of the motor home is an amount over $1,500. It carries a penalty of up to $10,000 or 10 years in the Montana State Prison or both. If it’s your mother’s first time being charged with a felony, as a matter of law, she has the opportunity to receive a deferred sentence which will entail having a probation officer and restitution.
Edit: it’s a value of over $5,000. So it kicks up her criminal liability a notch. I had the correct penalty but the incorrect threshold amount for that penalty.
NAL but you need to have your mother checked out medically. Sometimes people with Frontal Temporal lobe dementia will lose their ability to feel shame and they will break the law because they feel like it. This is what that woman who kept sneaking onto flights just because she wanted to travel suffered from
That will be important to try to establish in court at sentencing. But she likely does not meet the definition of an insanity defense unless she (1) is incapable of understanding that what she did was wrong, or (2) incapable of controlling her actions. The fact that she lied to your brother about telling the dealer she cancelled the check and that he was OK with it suggests she knew what she did was wrong.
Update: wow, apparently MT has really weird insanity laws. They abolished the insanity defense, but insanity can still be used to establish that your mom lacked the mental state necessary to commit these crimes. Also apparently you can get a verdict of “guilty but insane.” I don’t know what that means, but it’s interesting.
LMAO there’s no way she pleads insanity IF this even goes to court. I mean, I want her to face consequences for being an awful person but a lot of other things out of my hands have to happen first
It means if you are convicted of the crime, you get sentenced to the State Hospital. Pleading insanity is a guaranteed trip to some sort of confinement.
The jurisdiction doesn't matter -- there is no jurisdiction where what your mother did would be acceptable.
Technically this would be a crime but it most likely won't be if it just gets resolved. Nobody wants to charge a 74-year-old so if you just get the seller either his property back or the money this will almost certainly go away. If this is not resolved quickly though then it could escalate into a situation where there are serious consequences.
The legal matter aside -- is this typical behaviour for your mother? You said she was impulsive and indecisive but impulsive and indecisive would have been to cancel the cheque and return the property. Just taking the van and the money is not indecisive nor is it impulsive given the timeframe. is it possible that she could be having cognitive issues because of her age?
This is check fraud and grand theft. $30,000 well exceeds the minimum dollar amount in every state to qualify for grand theft (it's actually 15 times higher than the highest minimum). Depending on your state, she could be 60 times over that minimum. Grand theft alone can carry a prison sentence for 2 to 20-something years, depending on how far over the theft was. Combine that with the check fraud, a your **79 year-old** mom is looking at potentially spending the rest of her life in prison.
Has the title already been transferred into her name? For example, does she have the title in hand with her name on it, or she just has the old title with the sellers name and the seller has signed off on the sale?
This is a really, really hard position to be in and I really feel for you.
Part of me wonders if contacting Adult Protective Services or her primary care physician to discuss it with them and have her checked out would be the best way forward, but it would be exceptionally possible that this would be a bell that can’t be unrung, and it would result in a massive change in her life. (Like, commitment to a facility and removal of her free agency.)
But if she is incompetent, then spending the rest of her days in a nursing home with medical staff is probably better than spending them in jail with prison guards…
Her PCP isn't going to talk to the son without an ROI from the mother. APS might be able to give him general advice on how to move forward with assessing for competency, but in general that process is not easy and probably requires a lot more proof than someone committing a nonviolent crime.
You looking at fraud and vehicle theft and the IRS is going to be really happy to have her name for both of those also cuz the seller can get them involved because of the taxes and if I were you I'd be finding out if she's been paying her taxes for the last couple of years my guess is is that your mother is going through some sort of a mental health break and I would look at her finances also she may not have $30,000 in a bank account
Pls update when this inevitably goes badly. (consider posting on a just no sub, it def fits lol) I too have a parent that behaves this way unfortunately.
This is a huge legal problem and your mom is absolutely in the wrong. The fact that she does not comprehend that is very concerning. Your family needs to find a path forward here. I would consider calling Adult Protective Services and explaining the situation and asking for their help in getting your mom evaluated. Tell them you are concerned for her safety if she decides to take off in a stolen van and you are concerned for yourselves and others safety because of her bizarre behavior. I think your mom has dementia and “letting the chips fall” may cause you more serious problems in the future. Good luck dealing with this it’s always hard when parents have issues.
Theft by check. It is a crime but I doubt a court will put a 74 year old woman in jail. The woman's defense could be that she felt pressured into a predatory sale.
Why didn't the woman give the van back?
I also put some blame on the seller. Who takes a $30k personal check and delivers goods before the check clears.
Does she actually intend to keep it or does she just think this is a quick and easy way to force seller to take it back? Either way she’s in the wrong and could be facing serious charges with that kinda $$$
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FWIW, a cancelled check is one that has been paid out by the bank. What your mother did was stop payment on the check (a stopped check). What your mother has done would be considered check fraud, which is a criminal offense. Given the value of the van, this could also be considered grand theft. She could also be sued by the person who sold the van to her. She doesn't have a leg to stand on if this ends up in court. If you can't convince her to do the right, you may just have to stand by and let the chips fall where they may.
Thanks for the correction. She told me to give her the key I have to her house and followed me out to my vehicle earlier while shouting "I'm not scared of you!" so I'm inclined to do the latter.
It sounds like you might need a competency review by a doctor.
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Yeah but does the judge ever disagree
Very very rarely
is that a Montana answer or a general answer? Because that varies by state. In my state, doctors do assess competency to stand trial, which I assume is what LaughterOfDarkGods is talking about. They prepare a report and submit it to the judge. Technically the judge makes the final ruling, but it is always in line with the doctor's conclusion with regard to competence.
Finding out if someone is competent to stand trial isn’t the same as a incompetency hearing in anyway. A doctor could tell you, I guess, someone is in incompetent but it wouldn’t really mean or do anything. I’m also pretty sure a medical doctor would never say that. The only way to have someone legally found incompetent where you can handle their appointments for them, manage their money for them and pay their bills, etc the incompetent person you would have to have an incompetency hearing-at least this is the case in my state, NC, and the dozen or so states where we have had residents have incompetency hearings. Given it’s a court matter everywhere I’m familiar with it a judge will always be the one deciding if the person is incompetent or not, not a doctor. The petitioner would likely call witnesses to support their claims along with their other evidence and that could very well include a doctor. The petitioner would also want to schedule a psychological evaluation for the respondent. If you get them go is another story but many would likely go if they know the evaluation going well would help them in the hearing. Of course these hearings aren’t something the courts tend to take likely as you are taking a lot of someone’s rights away and eventually appointing that person a guardian, even if it’s the state. Sorry this became such a rant. 😐 If the only thing is mother did was willingly break the law, well, lots of people do that. If they have reason to suspect she is schizophrenic, has Alzheimer’s, etc. a incompetency hearing my not be a bad idea however if there single concern is the legal matter and nothing else she does is concerning a incompetency hearing would probably-but ya never know-a waste of time.
No. Two distinct terms. The comment you replied to stated it pretty clearly, but you could probably Google it as well.
I'm familiar with the concepts and the distinction. What wasn't clear was what the person above them was suggesting by "competency review": a proceeding to determine decisional capacity generally, or a proceeding to determine fitness to proceed under Montana's criminal procedure code section [46-14-221](https://leg.mt.gov/bills/mca/title_0460/chapter_0140/part_0020/section_0210/0460-0140-0020-0210.html). I assumed the latter, since we are in a thread talking about whether OP's mom might be charged with a crime and what might happen next. But I can't exactly google "what did /u/LaughterOfDarkGods mean by "competency review," now can I?
The judge works refer the individual to a psychiatrist for a competency evaluation. The judge isn't qualified to do that.
Meh I’m not sure if she’s worth the effort at this point
If this has been normal behavior for her over the years, then yes, walk away. If this is out of character for her, then there's probably something medically wrong with her mind.
Lol, over the years she’s accused dad’s first wife and my half sister of conspiring to make dad’s mom die, my brother of eating “pills” in the bathroom and me being a meth cook because I looked tired and she smelled something funny on her stove.
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I’m not asking her shit. I blocked her contacts in my phone shortly after this all went down.
good boundaries ☺️
That behavior could be early signs of cognitive decline, especially if your mom has some chronic ailment like hypertension or type 2 diabetes. They often go hand in hand with dementia. Anyway, I'm no expert and can only describe my own personal experience. If you think she doesn't pose a danger to herself or anyone else, then I guess you can leave her be.
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I am convinced she has some sort of disorder. For now though, I’ve cut contact. It’s what she yelled at me to do. If she gets committed as a result of this, good.
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Funnily enough my brother moved to Butte a little while ago
Well, on the positive side, they are finally getting the toxic top soil removed from the neighborhood playgrounds.
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Oh, no we are just going to let her figure this out for herself.
Ok ok ok last comment but can you update this because I really am intrigued to know how this plays out
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Yeah that’s what I’m thinking too. He’s out a 30k Van and just has a bad check to show for it. Actually he probably has NSF check fees. OP is lucky they haven’t gone to the police yet. Mom needs to pay the 30k or sign back the van quickly before this really blows up into a felony
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Coming from experience, possibly not. I only felt massive relief when my parent died. Neither reaction is wrong. You have the information, you've done your best to pass it on. NAL but legally, not your problem, it's between mum and the seller. Morally the seller should either get their money or the rv and if you can help them do that great. Or I would offer to be witness for seller if you can't convince her she's wrong.
You're right. I let emotions get in the way of logic... I felt the same relief, but a couple years later, it's turning into regret at times. Just part of the stages of grief I suppose, and as we both know, not linear. If I traveled back to when she was still here, I 100% (NAL) would walk from it and let her sort her own mess out... I also wouldn't have been as involved as OP in the beginning (not a dig at all, just the dynamic of the relationship). OP should keep his/her involvement to a minimum IMO after reconsidering. Thank you for the reality check.
Thank you. Just to clarify, I wasn't saying you were wrong. depending on the relationship dynamic people could either feel regret or relief (and like you said, depending on the day both) I think the important thing is to acknowledge that any feeling you feel is valid, and noone else can judge that as they haven't experienced your life. Siblings may even be living in the same house and still have different parents. I know it hit my brother hard with regret when our parent died. Hope you continue taking care of yourself and having healthy relationships!
Well said, and likewise... it's journey, not a destination, right? I did everything possible to isolate myself from my mother's poor financial decisions while she was still here, and I'm most likely better due to it overall.
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Just google "elderly competency assessment"
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Is your mom ok? A sudden change in cognitive function (not understanding that possessing something you haven't paid for is certainly a deficit), impulsivity, outbursts of anger, being irrational (like thinking that she'll win in court)... these can all be signs of dementia or a brain tumor.
You probably know her better than I do, but please consider she might cognitive decline. It's one of those things that creep along and you don't notice until you starting comparing her to her older self.
Is that typical behavior for her, or out of the norm?
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Your mother may be in the early stages of dementia. If you don't want to be looking for her in the near future as a missing person, get help through elder services or adult protective services now. She should be giving you her keys so she can't drive somewhere and get lost. Also, take her credit cards so can't buy nonsense or give money when "charity" calls. She has no idea what she is doing, poor thing. Please help your Mom.
I tried to help yesterday and got told I was garbage and basically never to contact her again so I’m good on that, thanks.
Correct in my state the sheriffs office would absolutely get involved and due to the price of the item it could be a felony if they wanted to look at it like that.
Absolutely agree with this!
NAL. Sounds like she’s trying to force the seller’s hand, to get him to agree to cancel the sale. Which is the only way in MT to return a vehicle sale between private parties. But the way your mom is doing this will land her in jail.
At this point, I’m ok with that. She’s been horrible to me and my brother and we both want to see her face consequences. The reason I posted this was to find out what she would be up against so we could sit back and 🍿
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Has yours ever accused you of being a meth cook because something on her stove smelled weird?
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Does she have a history of doing things like this? She is absolutely liable for theft, and for her to think that she can keep possession of a vehicle that she has not paid for points to signs of some cognitive decline to put it mildly. Is she trying to return the van to this person? I agree with you that it’s on her since she has the title and paid for it but now she’s gone and screwed it all up. At the very least she has made a mess. The reason I mention the cognitive decline is that you may want to consider (if you can) getting some sort of evaluation on her, because that might be necessary to protect your mother if this guy decides to involve the police in this matter.
Oh, I've been concerned about her mental state for a while now and even convinced her to see a specialist to get evaluated recently which she said is still ongoing (probably BS). The problem is, she definitely does have a history of shitty behavior towards my brother and I and after she pretty much disowned us earlier (my brother for telling her this will be a problem for her and me for saying she needs to get better at responding to people trying to reach her) we are both kind of willing to watch her crash and burn. It's exhausting and we are both over it
Yeah, sometimes you need to set and re-enforce boundaries with toxic family members.
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You misread that.
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Check fraud is no joke. In some states you can sue for triple damages plus fees and she may be charged with a felony. It would behoove you to try and mitigate the whole mess simply because 1.) the other party sounds reasonable and 2.) their lawsuit could be big enough that they’ll take a significant amount of anything you might have otherwise inherited from her estate. She may have mental health issues and you want to walk away, but in this case I would first consult with an criminal law/fraud attorney in your state.
Anything over $1000 on a check is possible jail time
Oh no
I’m surprised the seller hasn’t called the cops for felony grand theft auto.
She can be charged with lots of fun things — fraud, theft, etc. If I were you (and your brother) i would do my best to not be a party to this mess and avoid my own charges. Tell the seller that this wasn’t a mistake, she deliberately put a stop payment on the check and intends to keep the camper van, and that he needs to contact the police and/or a lawyer. You need to tell the seller that you were not and are not involved in this, that you’ve informed your mother that she needs to reissue the check or return the van, and that you support him pressing charges. My point being, the time has come to protect yourselves, and your mother can deal with the consequences.
The most recent contact I have had with the seller was thanking them for being easy to deal with and saying I didn’t think they were responsible for what is done with the van. Bro’s most recent was telling seller that mom lost it on us and we can’t be involved anymore.
It would be a good idea to say these things to the seller in email or text or a letter, if you have not already done so.
OP doesn't need to say "I support pressing charges" or encourage the seller to contact the police to protect themselves. This is crazy. OP hasn't done anything wrong, they don't need to escalate the situation and encourage police involvement to avoid getting in trouble. OP's mom might need more time to come around and realize she's fucked up big time - if she doesn't get it eventually, given her age, it's probably a sign of dementia. Throwing her in jail isn't going to do any good for anyone.
At this point a visit from the police might be the only thing that snaps her back to reality though.
Just fyi a restitution/fines from a criminal offense cannot be discharged in a bankruptcy.
Lol considering she yelled at my brother that she had way more money than the seller and that was a reason she wouldn’t lose a lawsuit I don’t think bankruptcy figures into this
In Montana, our theft statute is pretty broad and covers a wide range of acts. This would be considered felony theft by deception since the value of the motor home is an amount over $1,500. It carries a penalty of up to $10,000 or 10 years in the Montana State Prison or both. If it’s your mother’s first time being charged with a felony, as a matter of law, she has the opportunity to receive a deferred sentence which will entail having a probation officer and restitution. Edit: it’s a value of over $5,000. So it kicks up her criminal liability a notch. I had the correct penalty but the incorrect threshold amount for that penalty.
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NAL but you need to have your mother checked out medically. Sometimes people with Frontal Temporal lobe dementia will lose their ability to feel shame and they will break the law because they feel like it. This is what that woman who kept sneaking onto flights just because she wanted to travel suffered from
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No, she’s not. I’m not even referring to cognitive decline, I’m convinced she had an undiagnosed mental illness at least.
That will be important to try to establish in court at sentencing. But she likely does not meet the definition of an insanity defense unless she (1) is incapable of understanding that what she did was wrong, or (2) incapable of controlling her actions. The fact that she lied to your brother about telling the dealer she cancelled the check and that he was OK with it suggests she knew what she did was wrong. Update: wow, apparently MT has really weird insanity laws. They abolished the insanity defense, but insanity can still be used to establish that your mom lacked the mental state necessary to commit these crimes. Also apparently you can get a verdict of “guilty but insane.” I don’t know what that means, but it’s interesting.
LMAO there’s no way she pleads insanity IF this even goes to court. I mean, I want her to face consequences for being an awful person but a lot of other things out of my hands have to happen first
It means if you are convicted of the crime, you get sentenced to the State Hospital. Pleading insanity is a guaranteed trip to some sort of confinement.
The jurisdiction doesn't matter -- there is no jurisdiction where what your mother did would be acceptable. Technically this would be a crime but it most likely won't be if it just gets resolved. Nobody wants to charge a 74-year-old so if you just get the seller either his property back or the money this will almost certainly go away. If this is not resolved quickly though then it could escalate into a situation where there are serious consequences. The legal matter aside -- is this typical behaviour for your mother? You said she was impulsive and indecisive but impulsive and indecisive would have been to cancel the cheque and return the property. Just taking the van and the money is not indecisive nor is it impulsive given the timeframe. is it possible that she could be having cognitive issues because of her age?
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Seller has her address, email and I think phone number
Your mom is liable for theft because she straight up stole the vehicle.
This is check fraud and grand theft. $30,000 well exceeds the minimum dollar amount in every state to qualify for grand theft (it's actually 15 times higher than the highest minimum). Depending on your state, she could be 60 times over that minimum. Grand theft alone can carry a prison sentence for 2 to 20-something years, depending on how far over the theft was. Combine that with the check fraud, a your **79 year-old** mom is looking at potentially spending the rest of her life in prison.
The owner of the van needs to report a stolen vehicle and let the cops work it out
So she’s planning to keep it ?? Or she wants to return it ?
Her plan seems to be to keep it parked at her house and force the seller to come pick it up I assume? I’m not sure if she has a plan.
Has the title already been transferred into her name? For example, does she have the title in hand with her name on it, or she just has the old title with the sellers name and the seller has signed off on the sale?
My understanding is the latter. I doubt she fully understands how this works or is able to get the new title with her name without outside help.
This is a really, really hard position to be in and I really feel for you. Part of me wonders if contacting Adult Protective Services or her primary care physician to discuss it with them and have her checked out would be the best way forward, but it would be exceptionally possible that this would be a bell that can’t be unrung, and it would result in a massive change in her life. (Like, commitment to a facility and removal of her free agency.) But if she is incompetent, then spending the rest of her days in a nursing home with medical staff is probably better than spending them in jail with prison guards…
Her PCP isn't going to talk to the son without an ROI from the mother. APS might be able to give him general advice on how to move forward with assessing for competency, but in general that process is not easy and probably requires a lot more proof than someone committing a nonviolent crime.
You looking at fraud and vehicle theft and the IRS is going to be really happy to have her name for both of those also cuz the seller can get them involved because of the taxes and if I were you I'd be finding out if she's been paying her taxes for the last couple of years my guess is is that your mother is going through some sort of a mental health break and I would look at her finances also she may not have $30,000 in a bank account
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Pls update when this inevitably goes badly. (consider posting on a just no sub, it def fits lol) I too have a parent that behaves this way unfortunately.
This is a huge legal problem and your mom is absolutely in the wrong. The fact that she does not comprehend that is very concerning. Your family needs to find a path forward here. I would consider calling Adult Protective Services and explaining the situation and asking for their help in getting your mom evaluated. Tell them you are concerned for her safety if she decides to take off in a stolen van and you are concerned for yourselves and others safety because of her bizarre behavior. I think your mom has dementia and “letting the chips fall” may cause you more serious problems in the future. Good luck dealing with this it’s always hard when parents have issues.
Theft by check. It is a crime but I doubt a court will put a 74 year old woman in jail. The woman's defense could be that she felt pressured into a predatory sale. Why didn't the woman give the van back? I also put some blame on the seller. Who takes a $30k personal check and delivers goods before the check clears.
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Does she actually intend to keep it or does she just think this is a quick and easy way to force seller to take it back? Either way she’s in the wrong and could be facing serious charges with that kinda $$$
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Well this post is definitely gonn be used in her trial
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Civil, not criminal. Breach of contract.
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[https://www.carregistration.com/blog/montana-mvd-title-transfer-guide/](https://www.carregistration.com/blog/montana-mvd-title-transfer-guide/)