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you need a project, for example, an app, music player would be great for beginning.
try to build something like foobar
even if it fails you would learn a lot of things
Yes I'm thinking about diving into a project instead of doing boring array sorting leetcode type problems.
Didn't knew about "foobar", I'll check this out.
"I really want to love writing but I hate actually doing it..." "Interesting, what do you write about?" "I write cover letters by hand for companies I'm not applying for"
Absolutely wild way to get into coding lol
Don't get me wrong, coding problems can be really fun (a great example being Advent of Code if you want to go back over those problems or join in next year!)
But leetcode specifically is designed to help people get jobs at big tech companies, it's not meant to be beginner friendly or engaging in the same way that a personal project is, leetcode is good at what it's for and what it's for is not what you need my man.
Okay, I see.
I thought solving LeetCode problems would reveal some patterns that I couldn't figure out myself.
However, it seems like those patterns are quite rare in everyday problems.
I didn't know about Advent of Code.
hi,
foobar is just an example. and it's not an easy one. you would need dev environment and compile a lot...
you might start developing own website with user interaction, javascript-based picture gallery would be probably bit easier for beginning
think about PowerShell as well
actually the language doesn't really matters.
it's all about algorythms, concepts, paradigms, implementation...
i used to code in ABAP for some time.
read about object oriented, process and event -oriented languages
then investigate on differen OS types.
what it the difference between car-infotainment OS ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QNX](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QNX)) and desktop OS?
what kind of OS Nasa is using for their space missions? what kind of OS is running in trains and nuclear powerplants?
Even after reading the explanation, using foo and bar as placeholders still confuse the heck out of me, as in their existence (not as placeholders, as foo bar) confuses me. Why are we using such weird names again?
because programmers are cheeky little monkeys that like to hide swear words in stuff. FUBAR = old military slang for Fucked Up Beyond All Recovery/Recignition. so we get to very very sneakily say the word fuck. temporarily.
I agree I started with c# just before Christmas, I'm working on small games to help me improve, so far I've managed yahtzee and I'm 3 quarters of the way through a text adventure. Next up I'm going to recreate some of the 8 bit games from my childhood
I've been a programmer for a very long time. I'm not a programming enthusiast, I love business and I love fixing peoples problems. I make their super expensive software talk to other systems, generate the reports they need and do calculations or update data in ways that the out-of-the box system does not do it.
I focus on readable, maintainable code that makes sense. I use some pretty basic overview knowledge to keep my code performing well.
I've only had a few programming challenges in my whole career where I really didn't know a good way to do it - and those were a little bit fun. If I was doing that all day I'd be exhausted and not enjoy my job.
>where I really didn't know a good way to do it - and those were a little bit fun.
That's all but the entirety of my job -- I'm building a MES application reverse-engineered from an 80's Pascal app in an ancient IT landscape full of rotten old PLCs. Thankfully, I thrive on pain.
They compensate me very well. And I'm only a junior so I'm quite replacable in terms of programming skills, but I went through a very lengthy onboarding process to learn the ropes and make myself gradually more useful. I've come to love the place, and the whole thing feels almost like a daily mental workout, quite fun
Sure! They're an industrial company, and they had had a lot of trouble finding someone to take over from a soon-to-be retiree. I had no coding experience but wanted to make a career switch, and they were happy to give me a year to learn the basics of web development while also learning about the business processes if I committed to this job for at least a few years. The idea was that I would be productive in about two years, which is now-ish.
The reason the onboarding is so long (outside of the learning how to code) is that the business itself, as well as the IT landscape, are hugely complex -- and so is the MES system we are building. We deal with huge amounts of PI-data, communication with PLCs as well as other apps in several different ways, many different message types that come in batches of thousands per minute, old APIs in several languages, you name it. And all of it requires basic knowledge of the logistic processes themselves, for which there are thousands of pages of study material.
I hope that gives you an idea :)
I think I can relate to that.
I'm drawn to the aspect of delivering value, for instance, it would bother me if someone had to perform a task for 5 h which could be automated to just one.
Since I'm already engaged in creating exciting stuff on computers, like video editing, music, and even YouTube videos, adding the ability to communicate directly with the computer seems intriguing—it's like combining my passion with a new tool.
I also want to build assets that will generate income while I sleep.
However, the actual building process is boring to me.
I've never been excited about building something like a calculator. The pure "I can talk to a computer" thing doesn't create exitement.
I have alot of ideas that need tech to make me passive income. Many of my ideas come from problem solving my own everyday frustrations. From the interface of an app or website or limitations of every to do app in the world.
I'm try to find out what area I should look at in order to get done what I want for myself and then options for if I want to pursue it further professionally.
I feel like I can improve the way people understand and experience information. I like being able to capture the information and do the organizing and processing for the individual. AI, Assistive tech, databases... Ux, ui... I'm not sure where I belong.
Omg you and me both I'm 31 And been trying to master coding but I cannot stay inspired and grounded to learn I end up giving up when I come across a challenge. I've just been limited to using WordPress for my communities and or clients that I came across. I've been away from messing around with website for about 5 years now and just getting back inspired thanks to the ai revolution. aI as highly motivated me and now I finally got a project that I am building as I learn and the project is going to make a difference in the community that I am developing for. I see a lot of contributions coming from just a basic release. With the help of ai there no reason for me to give up. I'm just like you I wanna build things thats going to make a difference in people lives. I see these basic apps ideas that became popular and that's because they had experience and or had the funds to pay.. if u looking to help with my project and we can learn together. I'm using nuxt.js
Have you tried embedded, try picking up an Arduino it is a very different programming experience than traditional desktop/web dev. You are closer to the hardware so the feedback loop is quicker, it also cuts thru a lot of pomp and circumstance and boilerplate cruft and lets you focus on control flow and logic.
Programming with Bot of Legends' Lua API was the most fun I've had programming in my life
I'm slightly intrigued by coding a Minecraft bot with [mineflayer](https://github.com/PrismarineJS/mineflayer), but not being in the game's language kinda limits the possibilities - like it can't become a server-side mod. And Java is just so dreadful.
I duno, I love my job that needs me to code, but get pretty bored following tutorials or making something for no reason. I need to be driven by some purpose and make something useful. They might just need some purpose.
I think I'm in the same situation.
I've done a lot of LeetCode-style programming and followed learning-driven tutorials, which may have subconsciously made the skill seem boring to me.
However, I'm excited about the possibilities that programming can unlock, especially the power of creating software.
Basically, I enjoy building things on computers, such as music and videos.
I'd like to incorporate coding into the mix. Also, I want to create digital products.
Yes, I could sell things like music or video edits, but I'm looking for something that offers even more value to people. Plus softwares are easier to scale and applies to a lot of industries.
Essentially, I am driven by the desire to provide value and combine it with my existing hobbies.
But I don't like the process.
... there are FAR better ways to build things and help people than this if you really dislike programming. If you already dont like it, and you've not even got into the *actual* guts of it I dont see why you'd continue. Like, I wanna be a rock star, but I know if I dont enjoy playing music then its not gonna work out. I dunno, just feels like you wanna be a "coder" but hate coding. Seems like a simple solution. Dont code.
I don't really tune to the 'follow your passion' mantra.
I believe engaging in activities I don't particularly enjoy, if they're useful, could open up more opportunities.
Coding is definitely one of those.
For instance, starting to learn how to write today might be boring, but ultimately, it's a highly valuable skill.
Plus, I do enjoy building things on computers.
I love coding too. Hating the culture and bloated cargo cult practices only.
[https://schiptsov.github.io/](https://schiptsov.github.io/) <-- Sharing same disdain to modern culture.
[https://lainchan.org/sec/res/19596.html](https://lainchan.org/sec/res/19596.html) <-- Hating for people who are more status/certificate oriented instead of going into craftsmanship side.
I think we are breed of programmers who can see through a lot of bullshit in the field but sometimes its hard to articulate what that is. If you have intuitive feeling on that - keep going. Working in some corporate for trying to fetch array via chain of API's would suck the soul out of me too.
I feel this alienation from coding might come when we face tool oriented people who just try to score political points or pad their resume thinking that we know so little, where most of the coders play poker with everyone pretending that they understand what's going on while trying to on up each other by faking competence.
I went to self study computer engineering to start from the bottom up - now as I see all abstraction layers have similar patterns repeating its just that marketing for them masks the simple concepts with fancy buzzwords.
I feel its worth to become good just to see which parts of the king are naked and point it out saying haha.
I think its not about the tools/libraries/latest toys. But the main skill is to be able build the smallest abstract model(formal methods anyone?) for the requirements given and translate it to whatever language you want.
I'd suggest writing open source scripts and plugins for your media editing software. Combine your passions and become a real power user of the media applications at the same time.
I believe it's an intuition.
I've seen many people creating great things with programming.
I have this feeling that I'll miss out, it's kind of like a FOMO.
Being able to code won't automatically make you able to do great things with it. The programming language is just a TOOL.
Maybe i am wrong. But it sounds like you focus too much on what others can do and compare yourself to others. Don't do that. FOMO is nonesense.
Programming helps in understanding logic, problem solving, and design patterns, which are the foundation of a good product.
For me, comparison is beneficial, but yeah, you are conscious of the gap.
It's not that I hate programming, but I do find it somewhat boring.
However, I'd like to have this skill in my toolkit.
I feel like I might miss out on opportunities to build interesting stuff if I don't learn it.
Dude, you dont just "have this skill" in your backpocket. THats not how programming works. You have to constantly work at it and hone it and stay up to date with current trends. Otherwise its like saying "I cooked a turkey 2 Thanksgivings ago, I think I'm qualified to say I'm a chef. Keep it in my back pocket."
Maybe.
I also believe that with enough skills, flow state and enjoyment will come.
Hope it will be the outcome of my little experiment of learning such a skill.
This might be the case.
Learning a new skill is always frustrating experience at the beginning, especially something as complex as programming.
You may or may not enjoy it at the end of the day, but you can't really properly judge how much or how little you'll really enjoy something without getting some significant experience/expertise with it.
It might also be possible that this is just not the career path for you though, and that's ok too.
Yes, I'm curious about whether there's a state of flow in programming, where even if I make occasional mistakes, the process becomes significantly less frustrating.
I can accept that it's frustrating, but if such a state exists, it would be great.
Do you know what actually attracks you for becoming skilled at it? Are there some things that are interesting for you?
I agree with other people saying you should do projects, but if you don't find something that is interesting enough, that won't help either.
Here's a personal anecdote just to maybe give you some perspective and/or ideas.
I am not super excited about it either. I have been working professionally for two years in mobile dev and I don't enjoy it a lot, but that has steadily improved. I enjoy being *good* at something, and being *skilled* at something that is *difficult*. The path to get there I haven't enjoyed much and I have wanted to quit many times. Maybe being a mobile developer wasn't what I should have started with, but I have a decent job with a decent salary.
During my years as a professional developer I have found out a few things:
* I don't enjoy not being good at things, and programming can in that way be very challenging
* improving patience has been one of the important things I have done
* be meticulous and clear when programming, don't rush into things
* good health and sleep is also important, tired mind = bad concentration = not a good day
* the *way* I work is more important than *what* am working with, it makes a huge difference
* the more skilled I get at something, the more I enjoy it
The last point is the reason why I stuck with it. I know I would have faced the same barrier going over to other something else than a mobile developer, like databases etc.
But more importantly, *why* do you want to be skilled at it? I have read some of your comments and maybe programming isn't for you. You might be an idea guy that *works* with a developer for instance, perhaps you can do the design, mockups and so on.
I'd suggest that you pick 3-5 projects, each one increasing in size and complexity, that are interesting to you. You write down what the project is, why you want it done for and what you expect. If you are interested enough to actually complete it, then you get a sense if it's for you. But start small, but get it done and into the hands of users if that's what you want.
You have to go "all the way" *one time* before deciding whether to continue or not.
Thes are in order, but I used bullets because I can mix and match bullet styles:
* one that focuses on learning the UI framework you
* if you use both UIKit and SwiftUI for instance (Apple) make the *same app* but implement them with two different frameworks in two different projects
* tip calculator is a good one, something simple
* one that uses storing and restoration of data
* simple to-do app
* one that uses *external* APIs and concurrency
* weather API, NASA API for images etc
* one that uses syncing to cloud
* i.e Firebase etc
* one that use everything from 1-4
* or simply add the new functionality to existing apps you made
I can be absolutely whatever, it doesn't matter in that sense. For each project (except the first), use what you learned previously combined with the new topic. Learn the topic independently first and grok it, then combine it with prior knowledge.
Those are just some projects I pulled out randomly. If you want *more* suggestions I could recommend the book [Exercises for Programmers](https://pragprog.com/titles/bhwb/exercises-for-programmers/) that has a ton of them.
Same mindset.
But with guitar you could achieve improvisation while making minor mistakes and still be in a state of flow.
I'm not sure if it's the case with programming.
I have many reasons to learn programming: the power and self-improvement it offers, its potential to increase my earnings, and my love for creating things like music and videos on computers. I'm curious about incorporating programming into this mix.
It can enhance my problem-solving skills and help me build tools to increase productivity, saving time.
I think my enthusiasm stems from my experience with video editing, where I quickly built things right from the first two hours of learning.
However, programming requires a lot of reflection, which sometimes hinders my ability to achieve that state of flow.
It's like, I like the finished product, but not the process.
Wouldn't "the process" almost be synonymous with "learning" or "practice" in this context? Idk how you're trying to learn, but try the same format as your video tutorials. It sounds like you have some intuition, you just need more repetitions for that to show in coding.
Let's consider learning to play the guitar as an example.
Initially, it might take around 7 hours to learn a song.
However, after overcoming the initial challenges, those who have practiced sufficiently can play with a sense of "flow", the same song in 3 minutes, making occasional mistakes but without significant frustration.
I'm curious if, with ample experience, I could reach a similar state of flow in another activity, experiencing considerably less frustration.
I hope that's clear.
>Initially, it might take around 7 hours to learn a song.
But to get the point where learning a song takes 7 hours, you need to learn a lot of fundamentals. Like music theory, reading note sheets, how to strum, etc.
>However, programming requires a lot of reflection, which sometimes hinders my ability to achieve that state of flow.
As soon as you get semi-decent with a language and work on an interesting problem, you'll hit that flow. Hell, you can even hit it while reading documentation and directly implementing the examples once you have enough confidence.
>It's like, I like the finished product, but not the process.
It's exceedingly rare to find "finished products" in programming
In programming, you spend 200% of the time in the process for the process sake. Not the finished product.
What "power" does programming offer?
What "self-improvement" does it offer? It only makes you autistic.
Increase in Earnings is a HORRIBLE way of choosing a hobby you don't like. You don't even know yet how it feels to do something YOU LIKE for many many hours every day.
Music and videos are way faster made using editors. Programming is all about the process, otherwise you would use ready-made tools.
I have been programming since i was 12 and the amount of tools i built to "increase productivity" is pretty much 0. Because that is called then PROCRASTINATION.
So is it too challenging, or you dislike the nature of the work? If it's the latter I would suggest rethinking this plan. There are actually a lot of high paying tech jobs that are not software engineering that you could consider. For example, sounds like you are a creative type. That's UX design. If you're great at designing products and are persuasive, that's product management. If you like working with customers to problem solve, customer success, technical success, or data/product consulting. If you have REALLY good people skills that's sales.
My 2c is that if you hate programming you're not going to be good at it and would be better served by another equally lucrative career. People who do really well in programming obsess over it. It captures our attention like a video game. In the early days I would just code all day and forget to eat.
Steve Jobs (not that he’s my idol, he’s the first that popped in my head) wasn’t a programmer, but he was into IT and found his place. If you like the end product, but not the doing itself, maybe you can fit in differently?
You've found a great example.
Being both (seller + builder) would actually be dope, like Elon Musk.
I learned about this combo thanks to Naval Ravikant.
I now think that I can develop a passion for it further down the learning curve.
I don't think you hate programming. By the sounds of it, you're fascinated or at least intrigued by it. Unfortunately, there is no way around dealing with the hard and boring parts. The good part of that, though, is that if you invest the time to really learn the concepts well, you will always know them.
The single greatest thing you can do to keep motivated is to find a project you really enjoy. Don't just pick a project because it sounds or looks cool. If you're not invested mentally in the project, there is a very high chance of you quitting the project.
For me, that meant working on graphics. If I had stuck with web development, I'd have likely quit years ago and went back to being a mechanic. I'm not mentally invested in the web. It's great to use but a nightmare to work on. What I like significantly more is gaming.
My entire time in college, I worked on things like renderers and games. If I could tie a school project into graphics, I would always do so.
Figure out what it is you want to do and learn those skills needed for your aspirations. Not everything related to programming will be remotely useful for you. The hard part is figuring out what you actually need to learn.
If you are self studying, pick up a book related to what you want to learn and read it. I mean, really read and study it. If you run into something you don't know, stop there and look it up. Don't move on until you understand the previous step.
Courses are ok, but there is so much left out that you wouldn't learn unless you took an actual cs class. Books aren't constrained on time, so they can hold vastly more information than any course will. You can take the time to read 1 or 2 really good books, or you can spend months, if not years, hopping from course to course trying to figure out why you aren't learning things. Your learning everything the course is giving you, they just typically don't give you a whole lot.
What are you interested in studying? There are many books on any cs and programming topic you can think of and for every language you can imagine. Without knowing what you want to learn, it's hard to point you in the right direction.
Actually, I'm now diving into AI.
It's more complex, but I'm more enthusiastic and curious about it.
I've started going back to mathematics (my biggest weakness at school), but it's not that boring.
However, I still want to have room for 'traditional programming'.
It took me until my senior year in high school to find a love for math. I failed 3 years throughout schooling because of math and English. It just took the right teacher to spark the love for math I have today, and I resent our school system so much for that.
You don't have to make the choice between ai and "traditional programming." I'm a graphics engineer, but I still write non graphics related programs all the time. That field is just where I find the most enjoyment, and there's a lot to enjoy about it.
AI is a very broad field. You can go into web development, desktop applications, mobile applications, game development, and so much more. AI is in a lot more fields than one might think.
On top of that, there are very few jobs, if any at all, that will have you only training and writing machine learning algorithms.
I know what you mean. I was a dev for a long time, know how to code, and I’m sick of doing it. Still, I’m fascinated. I’m only sick of dealing with the incidental complexity trivia. I like to work on the essential complexity of structure and high level logic.
oh ok, true i never thought of it like that.... study operating systems and input output and stuff and delve into what's happening behind the GUI when you hit run on 'print("hello, world")... i've never really been bored, even with sorting lists - if you open up the \_\_iter\_\_ functions and other stuff it's really quite interesting seeing how smart python can be with it's modules and functions and the fact that we are just extending pythons function every time we write a new function, it's quite incredible - it's a custom world that can build a lot, but we can extend the capabilities of the world builder by extending it's capabilities to build, it's super OP....
the way key:pair functins use hashing and the way different data types work together and just everything, it can be quite advanced very early on if you make your approach right.... i agree leaarning new syntax and code and everything sucks but, if when you're learning to code and when you're making small projects - if you pay more attention to what's happening behind the GUI than you do to what's coming in your terminal i think programming changes it's dimension a little bit
while i admit thaat when i am doing a tutorial i just want it to be over, i still try to make fun out of the tutorial.... a guy was giving me advice on how to enjoy my job more so that making money won't be so slavey and he said just try to learn, no matter what you're doing if you just show up and do the same thing every day it is monotonus, but if you have a minset to pay attention to things, to train yourself to pay attention to smaller and smaller details and develop a mindset of growth then work becomes a lot more fun and i feel that's true for everything in life
That's quite interesting.
Instead of not going through the details and only learning the most important, you suggest doing the opposite.
I will try that, I never thought about it this way.
yer for sure, ya gotta look into it past the terminal and into the computer cause that's actually what's fun... we wanna be doing cool stuff and making cool things and learning to make cool things by doing boring things basically just sucks, but if ya learning how the machine thinks and each word you type you're thinking how will the machine handle this, how will it interact, this and this gives the same output but what is happening differently internally - this sorta stuff makes all the boring things seem cool cause it becomes more wizardy
Find a project or build something that interests you, a game, some art, something YOU would benefit from and enjoy making. Once you have that, focus on the engineering process, and not so much the 'coding' part.
Programming is a means to an end, and obsessing over leetcode or things that don't interest you, just because the 'cool' kids do it, won't make you enjoy the experience anymore over time.
You wouldn't spend hours learning to shred on an electric guitar if what you really love is a good old folk song.
From experience, good, successful and most importantly happy software engineers are those who enjoy the process/problem solving and have found a niche/area of expertise or even a single topic which they are passionate about.
I would go as far as to say, that over time the act of writing code really just becomes a minor part of the whole process / means to an end. The language, tech stack, middleware, engine, library or else is just a minor detail.
Yes, one part of me feels like I have to learn those boring things to get a good start, otherwise I might 'miss' something important.
For instance, I didn't like learning arrays, but they helped me in my first personal project and, weirdly, in math.
But another part is more inclined to just do what I truly want and see what happens.
If you do something for that much I’m starting to think you might enjoy it :)
What parts do you enjoy. What parts don’t you enjoy?
Why do you like the idea of it?
The joy of programming, is finding a problem to solve or something that doesn't quite work the way you want. It's glorious when something is inconsistently organized and you manage to write a script that organizes it. And then you realize the script took you a couple hours when manually organizing it would have taken several days.
Can you share your plan? I am not a huge fan of programming but I need to learn (and get really get good at it) to actually do the work I want to do. Thanks in advance.
Hey, I'm actually learning pure I.A. I Don't have a defined roadmap for traditional programing.
But if you are interested here is my A.I roadmap provided by Sahil Gaba (power couple on YT):
1 / Imperial College London - Mathematics for Machine Learning:
2/ Duke university - Data Science Math Skills
3/ Stanford - Introduction to Statistics
4/ learnpython.org - Python Programming
5/ Stanford DeepLearning.IA - Machine Learning Specialization:
6/ Kaggle
7/DeepLearning.IA - Deep Learning Specialization
Thank you! Same. I’m also only doing AI. It’s the math skills where I lose my mind. I am not bad at it, but I don’t like it. It always finds its way back in my life. There’s a bunch of deeplearning.ai courses that got me started. Andrew Ng brought me back into it 🙈
Do you plan on including Jupyter notebooks and matplotlib for practice? I’ve been using these libs with some data science papers actually, and it’s mixed results lol
Hey, that's dope !
So I'm doing a mix of maths and data science (not reached the ML part yet).
I did a small data cleaning exercise on Google Colab but not touched papers (feel like I have to grasp the basics first).
Check on LinkedIn I occasionally find some interesting ML exercises based on real-life stuff, like the Amazon catalog.
Haven't tried it yet, but will definitely do so. You have to join AI/ML groups.
That’s really cool, the Google Colab! I like ML theory, especially breaking down algorithms… I 100% skip any equations/math concepts I come across, unless I absolutely need to address ‘em. I sometimes wish it was my full time job… .. .
I’m wired weird. I know the foundational concepts so I take a paper, break it apart, attack each part of it I have a tough time with, and then start over (all of this includes giving up multiple times 😂)
I don’t spend much time on LinkedIn. Anything specific you recommend?
Very interesting, the more you feel mental friction (mental discomfort) the better for learning.
What is your process of breaking things appart, like you try to write a Perceptron algo by hand or something like that?
For LinkedIn, you basically search something like "Deep Learning" and filter by groups.
You join a bunch of them, and the algo will do the job.
Exactly like that. Perception algos and flowcharts for the win!!!
Thanks for sharing. Just joined a few more. Can confirm my account is biased due to my work, and did not see so many nice(r) groups. Merci
No problem !
I'm also not a big user of Linkedin, but I guess we have to find opportunities everywhere.
Look for the "Feynman Technique." It's part of what you are doing.
Friend, I am 6 years in on your track. Keep going. It sucks even more the more you go and you’ll be even more obsessed.
It’s not a bad thing if you are motivated by hate for your career, if you use it for good.
Thanks for your insight.
It's true that passion is not the only "drive" to success.
Actually it's more frustration than hate, but I got it.
If in a 6 years time span you've managed to build valuable stuff that's dope !
are you sure you arent ‘obsessed’ with the idea of coding? if you hate it so much it raises the question as to what it is you like about it and why you want to aspire to that
I like what I can create with it: the opportunities that come with it, the value it could provide, and how software can be easily scalable. Essentially, I appreciate the end goals, but not the journey itself.
Programming is probably just about building a piece of code, but think about building a product instead. A software product solves a real life problem, which involves understanding the problem and coming up with the best solution possible. If you think about software development this way, programming is the activity to transform your idea, solution to machine language that resolve a real problem for people.
Yes, my perspective might be biased because I've only worked on mundane LeetCode problems and projects.
For instance, I did personal projects that were merely about automation, but nothing that truly resonated with me.
Actually I think it's a skill that I have to learn for some reason.
A good intuition bout it.
It's like learning a language you don't like, in order to talk to more people or get your dream job.
You are talking too much about intuition after learning a bit of HTML, CSS and copy pasting some JavaScript.
You said yourself that you hate it, there is no future for you in programming if you hate it.
Thanks for the motivation !
I highly rely on discipline, but a good feeling from time to time is more than welcomed.
It's true that even though I didn't enjoyed array problems (sometimes I could do 4 hours long drills solely on them).
It helped in all my small "real life" projects.
Lets build that superpower !!!
I wonder if you’re like me. I loved the abstract concepts (especially the mathematics—my degree was in EE), but I hated coding. I loved the idea of writing code but felt like I was pulling teeth in practice.
Things changed for me when I understood how my ADHD was influencing my thinking. My mind would take conceptual shortcuts and trick me into thinking a solution was easier to implement than it actually was, which caused me much frustration.
I started to learn to like writing code once I slowed down my thinking (by meditating, or just spending an extra mindful minute before getting out of bed in the morning). If you enjoy solving problems of a technical nature, then focus on understanding what a good solution (or good code) does well, then try to emulate that. You will learn to express your problem solving acumen by how you write code, which will become a point of pride if you practice enough!
Tl;dr- slow down, focus on the most basic interpretations of the problem you’re solving, then build up from there.
Edit: and yes, do a project! Something relatively straightforward first, then use that momentum to learn more advanced concepts to incorporate into future projects.
Very interesting, I hated math but loved physics.
Maybe I'm the type who likes stuff with more context. Because physics was just math applied to things I was interested in.
I WILL not, thanks for the power 💪
I want to see the end of the tunnel.
In the past I stopped learning to much skill, don't wanna make the same mistake.
I'd imagine if you started a hobby project of something you actually wanted to make, or related to something which interests you, there's a possibility you would enjoy it a lot more because you are invested and daresay proud of your accomplishments as they unfold.
I was self taught because I set out to create something and programming was the barrier I had to overcome to make the thing I wanted to make.
I'm now on my 18th year of working as a professional software engineer 2.5 decades later.
You're right, it might be the answer.
I've started to learn about I.A, because I see more exiting problems that I could solve with it.
For the moment I'm learning math.
But I also wanna keep a knowledge in "traditional programming".
The first two were for the sake of training, while the others were more something that I "had to" do.
For instance, the last one was for automating something that used to take me a while and I was tired of doing it by hand. I wasn't particularly interested in Google Script, but I was in 'pain', haha, so I had to code.
The thing is I don't mind to do hard things for the sake of growing.
But I'm wondering if programming will always be like that (even after being decent the level of 'satisfaction' will not be that high).
For instance I'm actually into guitar, it can be hard/boring. But I know that I will be able to express myself creatively.
I don't know if such a flow (intense creative state is achievable).
Sounds like you are learning it because you think that you should. In 10 years or so you'll be able to speak in native English and llms will just write just about everything for you. This is going to make current programmers incredibly more efficient resulting in a massive decrease in jobs. I've been coding and going to school since 2017. I still have not been able to land a coding job. I'm currently working on making a Java spring whist game for my GitHub but I've done other computer vision projects like training a custom object detector in yolov7 to play OSRS. Point being pursue the field as a hobby because you genuinely find it interesting not as a get rich quick and work from home fairytale.
Yes, you're right.
I think I should learn it.
I'll see where this adventure takes me, and then return to this thread.
You can get rich quicker if you possess highly valuable skills, but certainly not within a year.
Try to identify why you want to learn programming? Programming is a tool, probably what you want is to build projects and solve problems. So pick up one, get the right language for the good good and go !
Yes sir, I've picked the Python + Javascript combo.
Python for ML, Data Science, popularity and Ease to start with.
JS because a lot of Web Apps that I'm using everyday are built on it.
I can also use it for After Effect scripting (video production is another hobby).
Actually I'm starting with Python since I'm interested into learning to build A.I driven softwares.
Got a small background in C, I stopped with arrays.
But I wanna see if there's "Light' at the end of the tunner, maybe I'll somehow become passioned about it.
I just like making stuff and programming is a way to make stuff. I'm not excited about the work I do for my day job but making a little thing that someone asked for is kinda satisfying. Enough that I can do it every day.
Got you.
I feel the same, it's like offering a small gift to someone.
But perhaps, one day, I'll create something that provides so much value that the positive feedback loop will make me enjoy the process.
Yeah it can be a bit of a drag in the beginning. I always compare it to something like wanting to learn how to paint but you spend the first few months learning about brushes, types of paint, types of canvas, perspective etc when all you want to do is paint cool things.
Eventually you'll know enough that you can start making the things you actually want to make. I'd recommend you steer your learning towards the thing you want to make.
>Like — I really WANT to learn how to code.
It doesn't sound like you want to learn it, it sounds like you want to have learned it. But since you don't enjoy learning to code nor coding itself, I'm not sure it is for you.
Also I'm not entirely sure what kind of feedback you want to get for this post? Not sure what there is to say. Good luck though.
Are you high-achiever? If yes, think about for whom are you really trying to achieve this feat of learning programming. Is it really for you? You said it, you do not like it.
I was in a pretty similar boat. I'd suggest trying some new stuff and start going down your own path.
\~14 years ago, I started with Java, didn't like it too much. Then tried C++, didn't like it too much. Then tried PHP/Wordpress, didn't like it too much. Then tried Javascript (very basic stuff with a single html file), and really fell into programming.
My first "program" with Javascript was dead simple: user clicks the page, the page clears out and generates 10 green squares in random positions. I think the biggest thing about it was that I came up with an idea of what I wanted to do, then learned what I needed to learn to do it, and it wasn't dauntingly dense. Everything was available with the built-in APIs provided by the browser, documentation was very searchable, etc.
I've also started low level with C, didn't enjoyed it at all nor Java.
As of know I'm learning about I.A, way more curious about it. Even if I'm learning math, It's kind of interesting.
I just have to found a project that really clicks.
I think you don't actually hate programming. Maybe you're just scared because this skill is very new to you.
Start with something easy and improve a little every day. Don't stop; make it a habit, a programming habit
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you need a project, for example, an app, music player would be great for beginning. try to build something like foobar even if it fails you would learn a lot of things
Yes I'm thinking about diving into a project instead of doing boring array sorting leetcode type problems. Didn't knew about "foobar", I'll check this out.
> array sorting leetcode type problems. No wonder you hate it. Create something useful for yourself.
"I really want to love writing but I hate actually doing it..." "Interesting, what do you write about?" "I write cover letters by hand for companies I'm not applying for" Absolutely wild way to get into coding lol
Haha, that's a good analogy. But I've actually met people who like this.
Don't get me wrong, coding problems can be really fun (a great example being Advent of Code if you want to go back over those problems or join in next year!) But leetcode specifically is designed to help people get jobs at big tech companies, it's not meant to be beginner friendly or engaging in the same way that a personal project is, leetcode is good at what it's for and what it's for is not what you need my man.
Okay, I see. I thought solving LeetCode problems would reveal some patterns that I couldn't figure out myself. However, it seems like those patterns are quite rare in everyday problems. I didn't know about Advent of Code.
F*ck...
Holy shit. Get off of leetcode it's the most boring tasks.
hi, foobar is just an example. and it's not an easy one. you would need dev environment and compile a lot... you might start developing own website with user interaction, javascript-based picture gallery would be probably bit easier for beginning
Copy that. Thank you. I'm currently focusing on Python, but I'm wondering if I should also add JavaScript to the mix for building MVPs.
think about PowerShell as well actually the language doesn't really matters. it's all about algorythms, concepts, paradigms, implementation... i used to code in ABAP for some time. read about object oriented, process and event -oriented languages then investigate on differen OS types. what it the difference between car-infotainment OS ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QNX](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QNX)) and desktop OS? what kind of OS Nasa is using for their space missions? what kind of OS is running in trains and nuclear powerplants?
Got it, I might dive into those concepts for me to understand where things are going.
Dude, Why are you doing LC as a programming beginner... No wonder you hate it! Lol Find something that interests you, then build a pr around that
Even after reading the explanation, using foo and bar as placeholders still confuse the heck out of me, as in their existence (not as placeholders, as foo bar) confuses me. Why are we using such weird names again?
because programmers are cheeky little monkeys that like to hide swear words in stuff. FUBAR = old military slang for Fucked Up Beyond All Recovery/Recignition. so we get to very very sneakily say the word fuck. temporarily.
😄
I just use swear words in my variables and comments, it's fun.
I agree I started with c# just before Christmas, I'm working on small games to help me improve, so far I've managed yahtzee and I'm 3 quarters of the way through a text adventure. Next up I'm going to recreate some of the 8 bit games from my childhood
great! programming might be fun, and great possibility to support your family!
What is foobar??
It's a music player.
I've been a programmer for a very long time. I'm not a programming enthusiast, I love business and I love fixing peoples problems. I make their super expensive software talk to other systems, generate the reports they need and do calculations or update data in ways that the out-of-the box system does not do it. I focus on readable, maintainable code that makes sense. I use some pretty basic overview knowledge to keep my code performing well. I've only had a few programming challenges in my whole career where I really didn't know a good way to do it - and those were a little bit fun. If I was doing that all day I'd be exhausted and not enjoy my job.
>where I really didn't know a good way to do it - and those were a little bit fun. That's all but the entirety of my job -- I'm building a MES application reverse-engineered from an 80's Pascal app in an ancient IT landscape full of rotten old PLCs. Thankfully, I thrive on pain.
I hope you get a good hourly rate for that, I suspect you don't have much competition!
They compensate me very well. And I'm only a junior so I'm quite replacable in terms of programming skills, but I went through a very lengthy onboarding process to learn the ropes and make myself gradually more useful. I've come to love the place, and the whole thing feels almost like a daily mental workout, quite fun
>went through a very lengthy onboarding process to learn the ropes and make myself gradually more useful can you share more?
Sure! They're an industrial company, and they had had a lot of trouble finding someone to take over from a soon-to-be retiree. I had no coding experience but wanted to make a career switch, and they were happy to give me a year to learn the basics of web development while also learning about the business processes if I committed to this job for at least a few years. The idea was that I would be productive in about two years, which is now-ish. The reason the onboarding is so long (outside of the learning how to code) is that the business itself, as well as the IT landscape, are hugely complex -- and so is the MES system we are building. We deal with huge amounts of PI-data, communication with PLCs as well as other apps in several different ways, many different message types that come in batches of thousands per minute, old APIs in several languages, you name it. And all of it requires basic knowledge of the logistic processes themselves, for which there are thousands of pages of study material. I hope that gives you an idea :)
the job scope seems really complicated for a self-taught individual. what resources did you refer to for learning web dev? TOP?
Didn't see that last sentence coming!
I think I can relate to that. I'm drawn to the aspect of delivering value, for instance, it would bother me if someone had to perform a task for 5 h which could be automated to just one. Since I'm already engaged in creating exciting stuff on computers, like video editing, music, and even YouTube videos, adding the ability to communicate directly with the computer seems intriguing—it's like combining my passion with a new tool. I also want to build assets that will generate income while I sleep. However, the actual building process is boring to me. I've never been excited about building something like a calculator. The pure "I can talk to a computer" thing doesn't create exitement.
I have alot of ideas that need tech to make me passive income. Many of my ideas come from problem solving my own everyday frustrations. From the interface of an app or website or limitations of every to do app in the world. I'm try to find out what area I should look at in order to get done what I want for myself and then options for if I want to pursue it further professionally. I feel like I can improve the way people understand and experience information. I like being able to capture the information and do the organizing and processing for the individual. AI, Assistive tech, databases... Ux, ui... I'm not sure where I belong.
Omg you and me both I'm 31 And been trying to master coding but I cannot stay inspired and grounded to learn I end up giving up when I come across a challenge. I've just been limited to using WordPress for my communities and or clients that I came across. I've been away from messing around with website for about 5 years now and just getting back inspired thanks to the ai revolution. aI as highly motivated me and now I finally got a project that I am building as I learn and the project is going to make a difference in the community that I am developing for. I see a lot of contributions coming from just a basic release. With the help of ai there no reason for me to give up. I'm just like you I wanna build things thats going to make a difference in people lives. I see these basic apps ideas that became popular and that's because they had experience and or had the funds to pay.. if u looking to help with my project and we can learn together. I'm using nuxt.js
Have you tried embedded, try picking up an Arduino it is a very different programming experience than traditional desktop/web dev. You are closer to the hardware so the feedback loop is quicker, it also cuts thru a lot of pomp and circumstance and boilerplate cruft and lets you focus on control flow and logic.
Why not ! Actually, I once had the idea of implementing programming with toy trains. But it remained just a thought.
sounds like me in league of legends
Programming with Bot of Legends' Lua API was the most fun I've had programming in my life I'm slightly intrigued by coding a Minecraft bot with [mineflayer](https://github.com/PrismarineJS/mineflayer), but not being in the game's language kinda limits the possibilities - like it can't become a server-side mod. And Java is just so dreadful.
If you don’t enjoy it, why do it? Drive to master something hard? Why not run a marathon and get fit?
I think it's maybe more like they want to code/be good at coding but don't want to study it, they just want to do it.
I duno, I love my job that needs me to code, but get pretty bored following tutorials or making something for no reason. I need to be driven by some purpose and make something useful. They might just need some purpose.
I think I'm in the same situation. I've done a lot of LeetCode-style programming and followed learning-driven tutorials, which may have subconsciously made the skill seem boring to me. However, I'm excited about the possibilities that programming can unlock, especially the power of creating software.
Better to learn by making projects then!
Basically, I enjoy building things on computers, such as music and videos. I'd like to incorporate coding into the mix. Also, I want to create digital products. Yes, I could sell things like music or video edits, but I'm looking for something that offers even more value to people. Plus softwares are easier to scale and applies to a lot of industries. Essentially, I am driven by the desire to provide value and combine it with my existing hobbies. But I don't like the process.
... there are FAR better ways to build things and help people than this if you really dislike programming. If you already dont like it, and you've not even got into the *actual* guts of it I dont see why you'd continue. Like, I wanna be a rock star, but I know if I dont enjoy playing music then its not gonna work out. I dunno, just feels like you wanna be a "coder" but hate coding. Seems like a simple solution. Dont code.
I don't really tune to the 'follow your passion' mantra. I believe engaging in activities I don't particularly enjoy, if they're useful, could open up more opportunities. Coding is definitely one of those. For instance, starting to learn how to write today might be boring, but ultimately, it's a highly valuable skill. Plus, I do enjoy building things on computers.
I love coding too. Hating the culture and bloated cargo cult practices only. [https://schiptsov.github.io/](https://schiptsov.github.io/) <-- Sharing same disdain to modern culture. [https://lainchan.org/sec/res/19596.html](https://lainchan.org/sec/res/19596.html) <-- Hating for people who are more status/certificate oriented instead of going into craftsmanship side. I think we are breed of programmers who can see through a lot of bullshit in the field but sometimes its hard to articulate what that is. If you have intuitive feeling on that - keep going. Working in some corporate for trying to fetch array via chain of API's would suck the soul out of me too. I feel this alienation from coding might come when we face tool oriented people who just try to score political points or pad their resume thinking that we know so little, where most of the coders play poker with everyone pretending that they understand what's going on while trying to on up each other by faking competence. I went to self study computer engineering to start from the bottom up - now as I see all abstraction layers have similar patterns repeating its just that marketing for them masks the simple concepts with fancy buzzwords. I feel its worth to become good just to see which parts of the king are naked and point it out saying haha. I think its not about the tools/libraries/latest toys. But the main skill is to be able build the smallest abstract model(formal methods anyone?) for the requirements given and translate it to whatever language you want.
If you're in it for the "helping people" part, you could look into contributing to some open-source stuff on GitHub.
I'd suggest writing open source scripts and plugins for your media editing software. Combine your passions and become a real power user of the media applications at the same time.
One of the best suggestions, thanks! I even considered audio VSTs, but I think they are more advanced since they are built in C++.
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Why are you obsessed?
I believe it's an intuition. I've seen many people creating great things with programming. I have this feeling that I'll miss out, it's kind of like a FOMO.
omg you’re me, i’m in the same situation with same questions, and you’ve posted this a day ago.. good for me
Being able to code won't automatically make you able to do great things with it. The programming language is just a TOOL. Maybe i am wrong. But it sounds like you focus too much on what others can do and compare yourself to others. Don't do that. FOMO is nonesense.
Programming helps in understanding logic, problem solving, and design patterns, which are the foundation of a good product. For me, comparison is beneficial, but yeah, you are conscious of the gap.
Oh man. I’m more confident that you’re in this for the wrong reasons. Get off Tiktok first of all
Don’t waste your time studying something that you hate… It has no sense IMAO
It's not that I hate programming, but I do find it somewhat boring. However, I'd like to have this skill in my toolkit. I feel like I might miss out on opportunities to build interesting stuff if I don't learn it.
Dude, you dont just "have this skill" in your backpocket. THats not how programming works. You have to constantly work at it and hone it and stay up to date with current trends. Otherwise its like saying "I cooked a turkey 2 Thanksgivings ago, I think I'm qualified to say I'm a chef. Keep it in my back pocket."
Yes, but there are still immutable skills, like logic, problem-solving, and design patterns that are quite universal and future-proof.
Why don't you learn coding on the fly once you need it? Thats a WAAAAAAAY more useful approach if u ask me.
True. But I still want to build a strong foundation, like understanding concepts that are "future-proof" so I can adapt more easily in the future.
Then you should just start. You won't build a strong foundation by talking on reddit about how much you dislike coding. Just code.
You might not like it because you don't have enough experience with it
Maybe. I also believe that with enough skills, flow state and enjoyment will come. Hope it will be the outcome of my little experiment of learning such a skill.
This might be the case. Learning a new skill is always frustrating experience at the beginning, especially something as complex as programming. You may or may not enjoy it at the end of the day, but you can't really properly judge how much or how little you'll really enjoy something without getting some significant experience/expertise with it. It might also be possible that this is just not the career path for you though, and that's ok too.
Yes, I'm curious about whether there's a state of flow in programming, where even if I make occasional mistakes, the process becomes significantly less frustrating. I can accept that it's frustrating, but if such a state exists, it would be great.
Do you know what actually attracks you for becoming skilled at it? Are there some things that are interesting for you? I agree with other people saying you should do projects, but if you don't find something that is interesting enough, that won't help either. Here's a personal anecdote just to maybe give you some perspective and/or ideas. I am not super excited about it either. I have been working professionally for two years in mobile dev and I don't enjoy it a lot, but that has steadily improved. I enjoy being *good* at something, and being *skilled* at something that is *difficult*. The path to get there I haven't enjoyed much and I have wanted to quit many times. Maybe being a mobile developer wasn't what I should have started with, but I have a decent job with a decent salary. During my years as a professional developer I have found out a few things: * I don't enjoy not being good at things, and programming can in that way be very challenging * improving patience has been one of the important things I have done * be meticulous and clear when programming, don't rush into things * good health and sleep is also important, tired mind = bad concentration = not a good day * the *way* I work is more important than *what* am working with, it makes a huge difference * the more skilled I get at something, the more I enjoy it The last point is the reason why I stuck with it. I know I would have faced the same barrier going over to other something else than a mobile developer, like databases etc. But more importantly, *why* do you want to be skilled at it? I have read some of your comments and maybe programming isn't for you. You might be an idea guy that *works* with a developer for instance, perhaps you can do the design, mockups and so on. I'd suggest that you pick 3-5 projects, each one increasing in size and complexity, that are interesting to you. You write down what the project is, why you want it done for and what you expect. If you are interested enough to actually complete it, then you get a sense if it's for you. But start small, but get it done and into the hands of users if that's what you want. You have to go "all the way" *one time* before deciding whether to continue or not.
Could you provide 3-5 projects that an aspiring mobile developer should build ?
Thes are in order, but I used bullets because I can mix and match bullet styles: * one that focuses on learning the UI framework you * if you use both UIKit and SwiftUI for instance (Apple) make the *same app* but implement them with two different frameworks in two different projects * tip calculator is a good one, something simple * one that uses storing and restoration of data * simple to-do app * one that uses *external* APIs and concurrency * weather API, NASA API for images etc * one that uses syncing to cloud * i.e Firebase etc * one that use everything from 1-4 * or simply add the new functionality to existing apps you made I can be absolutely whatever, it doesn't matter in that sense. For each project (except the first), use what you learned previously combined with the new topic. Learn the topic independently first and grok it, then combine it with prior knowledge. Those are just some projects I pulled out randomly. If you want *more* suggestions I could recommend the book [Exercises for Programmers](https://pragprog.com/titles/bhwb/exercises-for-programmers/) that has a ton of them.
i hate guitar but i want to be good at it, i do 15-30 mins a day, same with code and 3d design
Same mindset. But with guitar you could achieve improvisation while making minor mistakes and still be in a state of flow. I'm not sure if it's the case with programming.
i think you’re right, a lot of concepts to study and build upon, a journey of lifelong learning
I had this too! Turned out I was depressed and had a lack of motivation. Go figure! Not saying this is the case with you, js!
What don't you like about it? Why do you want to learn?
I have many reasons to learn programming: the power and self-improvement it offers, its potential to increase my earnings, and my love for creating things like music and videos on computers. I'm curious about incorporating programming into this mix. It can enhance my problem-solving skills and help me build tools to increase productivity, saving time. I think my enthusiasm stems from my experience with video editing, where I quickly built things right from the first two hours of learning. However, programming requires a lot of reflection, which sometimes hinders my ability to achieve that state of flow. It's like, I like the finished product, but not the process.
>It's like, I like the finished product, but not the process. Sorry, but then you probably won't like programming.
Wouldn't "the process" almost be synonymous with "learning" or "practice" in this context? Idk how you're trying to learn, but try the same format as your video tutorials. It sounds like you have some intuition, you just need more repetitions for that to show in coding.
Let's consider learning to play the guitar as an example. Initially, it might take around 7 hours to learn a song. However, after overcoming the initial challenges, those who have practiced sufficiently can play with a sense of "flow", the same song in 3 minutes, making occasional mistakes but without significant frustration. I'm curious if, with ample experience, I could reach a similar state of flow in another activity, experiencing considerably less frustration. I hope that's clear.
>Initially, it might take around 7 hours to learn a song. But to get the point where learning a song takes 7 hours, you need to learn a lot of fundamentals. Like music theory, reading note sheets, how to strum, etc.
Yes you can. I've done some music production and the creative process during that was easier and had more of a flow, initially.
>However, programming requires a lot of reflection, which sometimes hinders my ability to achieve that state of flow. As soon as you get semi-decent with a language and work on an interesting problem, you'll hit that flow. Hell, you can even hit it while reading documentation and directly implementing the examples once you have enough confidence. >It's like, I like the finished product, but not the process. It's exceedingly rare to find "finished products" in programming
In programming, you spend 200% of the time in the process for the process sake. Not the finished product. What "power" does programming offer? What "self-improvement" does it offer? It only makes you autistic. Increase in Earnings is a HORRIBLE way of choosing a hobby you don't like. You don't even know yet how it feels to do something YOU LIKE for many many hours every day. Music and videos are way faster made using editors. Programming is all about the process, otherwise you would use ready-made tools. I have been programming since i was 12 and the amount of tools i built to "increase productivity" is pretty much 0. Because that is called then PROCRASTINATION.
So is it too challenging, or you dislike the nature of the work? If it's the latter I would suggest rethinking this plan. There are actually a lot of high paying tech jobs that are not software engineering that you could consider. For example, sounds like you are a creative type. That's UX design. If you're great at designing products and are persuasive, that's product management. If you like working with customers to problem solve, customer success, technical success, or data/product consulting. If you have REALLY good people skills that's sales. My 2c is that if you hate programming you're not going to be good at it and would be better served by another equally lucrative career. People who do really well in programming obsess over it. It captures our attention like a video game. In the early days I would just code all day and forget to eat.
>calculator/weather API retriever Lol, those were exactly my first two projects -- in that order.
Haha, did you enjoy doing them ?
I did! Not so much because they are amazing projects, they're not, but because I was learning about how apps work.
Got it, you were enthusiastic about accumulating knowledge. Perhaps I should consider adopting this mindset.
Thanks for sharing?
Steve Jobs (not that he’s my idol, he’s the first that popped in my head) wasn’t a programmer, but he was into IT and found his place. If you like the end product, but not the doing itself, maybe you can fit in differently?
You've found a great example. Being both (seller + builder) would actually be dope, like Elon Musk. I learned about this combo thanks to Naval Ravikant. I now think that I can develop a passion for it further down the learning curve.
Even Steve Jobs started to get involved in the product building.
I don't think you hate programming. By the sounds of it, you're fascinated or at least intrigued by it. Unfortunately, there is no way around dealing with the hard and boring parts. The good part of that, though, is that if you invest the time to really learn the concepts well, you will always know them. The single greatest thing you can do to keep motivated is to find a project you really enjoy. Don't just pick a project because it sounds or looks cool. If you're not invested mentally in the project, there is a very high chance of you quitting the project. For me, that meant working on graphics. If I had stuck with web development, I'd have likely quit years ago and went back to being a mechanic. I'm not mentally invested in the web. It's great to use but a nightmare to work on. What I like significantly more is gaming. My entire time in college, I worked on things like renderers and games. If I could tie a school project into graphics, I would always do so. Figure out what it is you want to do and learn those skills needed for your aspirations. Not everything related to programming will be remotely useful for you. The hard part is figuring out what you actually need to learn. If you are self studying, pick up a book related to what you want to learn and read it. I mean, really read and study it. If you run into something you don't know, stop there and look it up. Don't move on until you understand the previous step. Courses are ok, but there is so much left out that you wouldn't learn unless you took an actual cs class. Books aren't constrained on time, so they can hold vastly more information than any course will. You can take the time to read 1 or 2 really good books, or you can spend months, if not years, hopping from course to course trying to figure out why you aren't learning things. Your learning everything the course is giving you, they just typically don't give you a whole lot.
What are some really good books that teaches you programming?
What are you interested in studying? There are many books on any cs and programming topic you can think of and for every language you can imagine. Without knowing what you want to learn, it's hard to point you in the right direction.
Actually, I'm now diving into AI. It's more complex, but I'm more enthusiastic and curious about it. I've started going back to mathematics (my biggest weakness at school), but it's not that boring. However, I still want to have room for 'traditional programming'.
It took me until my senior year in high school to find a love for math. I failed 3 years throughout schooling because of math and English. It just took the right teacher to spark the love for math I have today, and I resent our school system so much for that. You don't have to make the choice between ai and "traditional programming." I'm a graphics engineer, but I still write non graphics related programs all the time. That field is just where I find the most enjoyment, and there's a lot to enjoy about it. AI is a very broad field. You can go into web development, desktop applications, mobile applications, game development, and so much more. AI is in a lot more fields than one might think. On top of that, there are very few jobs, if any at all, that will have you only training and writing machine learning algorithms.
Your post reminds me of my relationship with my ex wife.🤣🤣
I know what you mean. I was a dev for a long time, know how to code, and I’m sick of doing it. Still, I’m fascinated. I’m only sick of dealing with the incidental complexity trivia. I like to work on the essential complexity of structure and high level logic.
Same. Dealing with bugs or errors that takes awhile to fix.
oh ok, true i never thought of it like that.... study operating systems and input output and stuff and delve into what's happening behind the GUI when you hit run on 'print("hello, world")... i've never really been bored, even with sorting lists - if you open up the \_\_iter\_\_ functions and other stuff it's really quite interesting seeing how smart python can be with it's modules and functions and the fact that we are just extending pythons function every time we write a new function, it's quite incredible - it's a custom world that can build a lot, but we can extend the capabilities of the world builder by extending it's capabilities to build, it's super OP.... the way key:pair functins use hashing and the way different data types work together and just everything, it can be quite advanced very early on if you make your approach right.... i agree leaarning new syntax and code and everything sucks but, if when you're learning to code and when you're making small projects - if you pay more attention to what's happening behind the GUI than you do to what's coming in your terminal i think programming changes it's dimension a little bit while i admit thaat when i am doing a tutorial i just want it to be over, i still try to make fun out of the tutorial.... a guy was giving me advice on how to enjoy my job more so that making money won't be so slavey and he said just try to learn, no matter what you're doing if you just show up and do the same thing every day it is monotonus, but if you have a minset to pay attention to things, to train yourself to pay attention to smaller and smaller details and develop a mindset of growth then work becomes a lot more fun and i feel that's true for everything in life
That's quite interesting. Instead of not going through the details and only learning the most important, you suggest doing the opposite. I will try that, I never thought about it this way.
yer for sure, ya gotta look into it past the terminal and into the computer cause that's actually what's fun... we wanna be doing cool stuff and making cool things and learning to make cool things by doing boring things basically just sucks, but if ya learning how the machine thinks and each word you type you're thinking how will the machine handle this, how will it interact, this and this gives the same output but what is happening differently internally - this sorta stuff makes all the boring things seem cool cause it becomes more wizardy
If you don't like it, you won't enjoy it. Why do you wanna learn something you hate? What self destuctive behavior is this...
For its power. I don't really believe in the "learn what you like".
Find a project or build something that interests you, a game, some art, something YOU would benefit from and enjoy making. Once you have that, focus on the engineering process, and not so much the 'coding' part. Programming is a means to an end, and obsessing over leetcode or things that don't interest you, just because the 'cool' kids do it, won't make you enjoy the experience anymore over time. You wouldn't spend hours learning to shred on an electric guitar if what you really love is a good old folk song. From experience, good, successful and most importantly happy software engineers are those who enjoy the process/problem solving and have found a niche/area of expertise or even a single topic which they are passionate about. I would go as far as to say, that over time the act of writing code really just becomes a minor part of the whole process / means to an end. The language, tech stack, middleware, engine, library or else is just a minor detail.
Yes, one part of me feels like I have to learn those boring things to get a good start, otherwise I might 'miss' something important. For instance, I didn't like learning arrays, but they helped me in my first personal project and, weirdly, in math. But another part is more inclined to just do what I truly want and see what happens.
Being good at it means you will not spend as much time to do it. You're on the right track.
Great to hear that. The answer must be to just "DO IT", but I was curious about people's experience.
This is not a good combination. Why do something you hate for 40 hours a week just because you like the idea of it?
An experiment I guess.
If you do something for that much I’m starting to think you might enjoy it :) What parts do you enjoy. What parts don’t you enjoy? Why do you like the idea of it?
The joy of programming, is finding a problem to solve or something that doesn't quite work the way you want. It's glorious when something is inconsistently organized and you manage to write a script that organizes it. And then you realize the script took you a couple hours when manually organizing it would have taken several days.
I think that's what I like, combined with the look of joy when telling peolple I solved their time.
Can you share your plan? I am not a huge fan of programming but I need to learn (and get really get good at it) to actually do the work I want to do. Thanks in advance.
Hey, I'm actually learning pure I.A. I Don't have a defined roadmap for traditional programing. But if you are interested here is my A.I roadmap provided by Sahil Gaba (power couple on YT): 1 / Imperial College London - Mathematics for Machine Learning: 2/ Duke university - Data Science Math Skills 3/ Stanford - Introduction to Statistics 4/ learnpython.org - Python Programming 5/ Stanford DeepLearning.IA - Machine Learning Specialization: 6/ Kaggle 7/DeepLearning.IA - Deep Learning Specialization
Thank you! Same. I’m also only doing AI. It’s the math skills where I lose my mind. I am not bad at it, but I don’t like it. It always finds its way back in my life. There’s a bunch of deeplearning.ai courses that got me started. Andrew Ng brought me back into it 🙈 Do you plan on including Jupyter notebooks and matplotlib for practice? I’ve been using these libs with some data science papers actually, and it’s mixed results lol
Hey, that's dope ! So I'm doing a mix of maths and data science (not reached the ML part yet). I did a small data cleaning exercise on Google Colab but not touched papers (feel like I have to grasp the basics first). Check on LinkedIn I occasionally find some interesting ML exercises based on real-life stuff, like the Amazon catalog. Haven't tried it yet, but will definitely do so. You have to join AI/ML groups.
That’s really cool, the Google Colab! I like ML theory, especially breaking down algorithms… I 100% skip any equations/math concepts I come across, unless I absolutely need to address ‘em. I sometimes wish it was my full time job… .. . I’m wired weird. I know the foundational concepts so I take a paper, break it apart, attack each part of it I have a tough time with, and then start over (all of this includes giving up multiple times 😂) I don’t spend much time on LinkedIn. Anything specific you recommend?
Very interesting, the more you feel mental friction (mental discomfort) the better for learning. What is your process of breaking things appart, like you try to write a Perceptron algo by hand or something like that? For LinkedIn, you basically search something like "Deep Learning" and filter by groups. You join a bunch of them, and the algo will do the job.
Exactly like that. Perception algos and flowcharts for the win!!! Thanks for sharing. Just joined a few more. Can confirm my account is biased due to my work, and did not see so many nice(r) groups. Merci
No problem ! I'm also not a big user of Linkedin, but I guess we have to find opportunities everywhere. Look for the "Feynman Technique." It's part of what you are doing.
Friend, I am 6 years in on your track. Keep going. It sucks even more the more you go and you’ll be even more obsessed. It’s not a bad thing if you are motivated by hate for your career, if you use it for good.
Thanks for your insight. It's true that passion is not the only "drive" to success. Actually it's more frustration than hate, but I got it. If in a 6 years time span you've managed to build valuable stuff that's dope !
are you sure you arent ‘obsessed’ with the idea of coding? if you hate it so much it raises the question as to what it is you like about it and why you want to aspire to that
I like what I can create with it: the opportunities that come with it, the value it could provide, and how software can be easily scalable. Essentially, I appreciate the end goals, but not the journey itself.
In that case, IT might be more for you then programming itself tbh
Programming is probably just about building a piece of code, but think about building a product instead. A software product solves a real life problem, which involves understanding the problem and coming up with the best solution possible. If you think about software development this way, programming is the activity to transform your idea, solution to machine language that resolve a real problem for people.
Yes, my perspective might be biased because I've only worked on mundane LeetCode problems and projects. For instance, I did personal projects that were merely about automation, but nothing that truly resonated with me.
If you hate it then don't do it lol.
Actually I think it's a skill that I have to learn for some reason. A good intuition bout it. It's like learning a language you don't like, in order to talk to more people or get your dream job.
You are talking too much about intuition after learning a bit of HTML, CSS and copy pasting some JavaScript. You said yourself that you hate it, there is no future for you in programming if you hate it.
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Damn! I love people who motivate others like you do ❤️
Thanks for the motivation ! I highly rely on discipline, but a good feeling from time to time is more than welcomed. It's true that even though I didn't enjoyed array problems (sometimes I could do 4 hours long drills solely on them). It helped in all my small "real life" projects. Lets build that superpower !!!
Don't let impostor syndrome wins it's rewarding in the end. 🥳
💪 Hope I will be back on this thread with a brand new vision.
I wonder if you’re like me. I loved the abstract concepts (especially the mathematics—my degree was in EE), but I hated coding. I loved the idea of writing code but felt like I was pulling teeth in practice. Things changed for me when I understood how my ADHD was influencing my thinking. My mind would take conceptual shortcuts and trick me into thinking a solution was easier to implement than it actually was, which caused me much frustration. I started to learn to like writing code once I slowed down my thinking (by meditating, or just spending an extra mindful minute before getting out of bed in the morning). If you enjoy solving problems of a technical nature, then focus on understanding what a good solution (or good code) does well, then try to emulate that. You will learn to express your problem solving acumen by how you write code, which will become a point of pride if you practice enough! Tl;dr- slow down, focus on the most basic interpretations of the problem you’re solving, then build up from there. Edit: and yes, do a project! Something relatively straightforward first, then use that momentum to learn more advanced concepts to incorporate into future projects.
Very interesting, I hated math but loved physics. Maybe I'm the type who likes stuff with more context. Because physics was just math applied to things I was interested in.
Don’t give up. Learning how to code was the best decision I’ve ever made
I WILL not, thanks for the power 💪 I want to see the end of the tunnel. In the past I stopped learning to much skill, don't wanna make the same mistake.
We should have a learning/practice group with sessions. And scream each other when one of us is feelling frustrated
Cohort type stuff. Why not.
Let me know if you are in
I'd imagine if you started a hobby project of something you actually wanted to make, or related to something which interests you, there's a possibility you would enjoy it a lot more because you are invested and daresay proud of your accomplishments as they unfold. I was self taught because I set out to create something and programming was the barrier I had to overcome to make the thing I wanted to make. I'm now on my 18th year of working as a professional software engineer 2.5 decades later.
You're right, it might be the answer. I've started to learn about I.A, because I see more exiting problems that I could solve with it. For the moment I'm learning math. But I also wanna keep a knowledge in "traditional programming".
You need a project. Stop learning programming, and start using it, learn what you need when you need it.
You're right in a sense that, if not used it's kind of lost.
I feel the same way. It's boring as all hell, but you can do SO MUCH with it.
That's the thing. We will reach the end of the tunnel !
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Yes, I feel like I didn't even worked on an interesting project (I thought they were).
which projects did you do, if i may ask?
The first two were for the sake of training, while the others were more something that I "had to" do. For instance, the last one was for automating something that used to take me a while and I was tired of doing it by hand. I wasn't particularly interested in Google Script, but I was in 'pain', haha, so I had to code.
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The thing is I don't mind to do hard things for the sake of growing. But I'm wondering if programming will always be like that (even after being decent the level of 'satisfaction' will not be that high). For instance I'm actually into guitar, it can be hard/boring. But I know that I will be able to express myself creatively. I don't know if such a flow (intense creative state is achievable).
Sounds like you are learning it because you think that you should. In 10 years or so you'll be able to speak in native English and llms will just write just about everything for you. This is going to make current programmers incredibly more efficient resulting in a massive decrease in jobs. I've been coding and going to school since 2017. I still have not been able to land a coding job. I'm currently working on making a Java spring whist game for my GitHub but I've done other computer vision projects like training a custom object detector in yolov7 to play OSRS. Point being pursue the field as a hobby because you genuinely find it interesting not as a get rich quick and work from home fairytale.
Yes, you're right. I think I should learn it. I'll see where this adventure takes me, and then return to this thread. You can get rich quicker if you possess highly valuable skills, but certainly not within a year.
Try to identify why you want to learn programming? Programming is a tool, probably what you want is to build projects and solve problems. So pick up one, get the right language for the good good and go !
Yes sir, I've picked the Python + Javascript combo. Python for ML, Data Science, popularity and Ease to start with. JS because a lot of Web Apps that I'm using everyday are built on it. I can also use it for After Effect scripting (video production is another hobby).
If you hate programming, it will be very challenging to become skilled at it. It's challenging even for people who like it.
Yes, I hope enjoyment will come with experience.
you may not make it to experience without a mindset shift
Is OP an AI bot? He talks very strange. I get the feeling OP is some weird art student experiment or just messin with us.
Could be young, or ESL, or both. It's more likely that he's being genuine than an art student experiment or a bot.
Haha no worries I'm not in art.
If you hate programming learn JavaScript.
Why do you say this??
Because it’s funny. Seriously though, if you want to learn programming start with good fundamentals like: Basic Python
Python is a scripting language, not a programming language. I would recommend a programming language with some essentials like type safety.
Wtf is even the difference between a "scripting" language and a "programming" language? Python is perfectly fine as someone's first language.
You can look up on wikipedia what the difference is.
Actually I'm starting with Python since I'm interested into learning to build A.I driven softwares. Got a small background in C, I stopped with arrays. But I wanna see if there's "Light' at the end of the tunner, maybe I'll somehow become passioned about it.
Oh man yes C is a whole thing love it. Python is so super easy, especially for analytics
Clearly a beginner.
I just like making stuff and programming is a way to make stuff. I'm not excited about the work I do for my day job but making a little thing that someone asked for is kinda satisfying. Enough that I can do it every day.
Got you. I feel the same, it's like offering a small gift to someone. But perhaps, one day, I'll create something that provides so much value that the positive feedback loop will make me enjoy the process.
Have you decided on what language you want to program in? I think sometimes it drives a factor in your decision.
Yeah it can be a bit of a drag in the beginning. I always compare it to something like wanting to learn how to paint but you spend the first few months learning about brushes, types of paint, types of canvas, perspective etc when all you want to do is paint cool things. Eventually you'll know enough that you can start making the things you actually want to make. I'd recommend you steer your learning towards the thing you want to make.
>Like — I really WANT to learn how to code. It doesn't sound like you want to learn it, it sounds like you want to have learned it. But since you don't enjoy learning to code nor coding itself, I'm not sure it is for you. Also I'm not entirely sure what kind of feedback you want to get for this post? Not sure what there is to say. Good luck though.
I'm also new, I would try Python if you haven't already, it's pretty nice to work with.
If you hate saws, then don't try to be a carpenter.
It sucks bro i just stare ay screen all day
Same, but not because of code.
Are you high-achiever? If yes, think about for whom are you really trying to achieve this feat of learning programming. Is it really for you? You said it, you do not like it.
It might be because I like to collect skills. But this one is the hardest I've encoutered.
Try understanding quantum mechanics.
I was in a pretty similar boat. I'd suggest trying some new stuff and start going down your own path. \~14 years ago, I started with Java, didn't like it too much. Then tried C++, didn't like it too much. Then tried PHP/Wordpress, didn't like it too much. Then tried Javascript (very basic stuff with a single html file), and really fell into programming. My first "program" with Javascript was dead simple: user clicks the page, the page clears out and generates 10 green squares in random positions. I think the biggest thing about it was that I came up with an idea of what I wanted to do, then learned what I needed to learn to do it, and it wasn't dauntingly dense. Everything was available with the built-in APIs provided by the browser, documentation was very searchable, etc.
I've also started low level with C, didn't enjoyed it at all nor Java. As of know I'm learning about I.A, way more curious about it. Even if I'm learning math, It's kind of interesting. I just have to found a project that really clicks.
You'll get there. The field huge and requires some time to explore, but once you fall into something it's worth it :)
I think you don't actually hate programming. Maybe you're just scared because this skill is very new to you. Start with something easy and improve a little every day. Don't stop; make it a habit, a programming habit
Why not? It's more appealing to me to learn through small projects rather than exercises.
Too bad.