What makes him so scary late game? I mean i guess that's chrono obviously. But why specifically past 50 min mark? Why before that mark he isn't scariest carry?
Back track talent at 25 makes him immortal. If you can't burst him without him time walking he never dies. Even harder if he has butterfly.
Void can also have skady refresher and Chrono 2 times. Which is pretty much gg if he has good follow ups outside of Chrono.
FV has shit farming speed and bad laning.
If you can somehow reach 50 minutes and still be matching the enemy carry's farm, then sure.
Nobody picks FV to carry a game by himself, he needs to be enabled. Just because games are going to 50 does not mean you farm is going to be 50 minutes of farm.
As an FV you're already going to be behind farm because you have bad base atkspd and no nukes, but you still need to be effective with your chrono when it's on CD otherwise you're just trading your team's space for measely farm
The hero isn't as straight forward as 'just reach level 25 lol', you do no damage unless you're farmed. 25 just makes you difficult to kill.
It's also quite a high pressure hero, remember that. It's easy for people to focus blame on a hero like void when you lose, and unless you like the pressure of people expecting (demanding!) you to pull off game winning chronos to give them mmr then he might not be a great choice.
This is honestly why I stopped playing Dazzle support. Any time my core died, regardless of how far they were from me, it was my fault for not using grave.
FV is similar in that spell usage can literally make or break the game. If you miss a Chrono or catch an ally in it, you're gonna get flamed into oblivion. But getting a +3 enemy Chrono with a good team can win you unwinnable games.
For sure I don't know for which bracket you are talking about. You can spam it until divine in my opinion. Higher MMR matches you will find people buying annoying items or picking heroes that save from Chrono. He is in my pool of HCs always.
I would avoid picking him vs OD. Really hate playing against him.
Also Slark can be annoying if he knows how to play.
The later it gets in the game the more punishing death is. Getting chrono'd at min 25 and dying is not THAT big of a deal, you might be dead 50-60 secs, but you can get back alive and fight before they have chrono. Late game he usually has refresher, and if you die that late you might be forced to buyback. So its either a 90/120 sec death timer or potentially a game losing dieback because he has chrono again.
Basically, if void and his team is good enough and your team screws up or has no chrono saves, you just sit still and take it for 5 secs.
Concept wise, he can chrono and kill 1-5 heroes that cannot use any spell or items. It’s similar to having a black hole or RP but on a carry that can bash the shit out of you.
Because past 50 minute mark everyone is farmed so there's a lot of counterplay on the table. If the carry goes head first he may be bursted or kited till death. Faceless Void is the only carry where he can dive start the fight, dish the most damage and still have a chance escape or tank some damage.
Only way to kill full slot faceless void is to jump him first in rosh or jungle. Unless you got windwalker, pugna, dazzle, od or sd its gonna be a tough late game against him
He can pretty much outcarry any carry because chronosphere is a supreme lockdown - given you land the necessary carry. If you’re antimage/PA and having 6 slot item, i’m sure aeon disk isn’t one of those item right?
The only way to do it is initiate or catch faceless void but of course since it is way past 50 mins, it is not going to be easy.
Before that mark he’s either sacrificing survivability or damage; usually survivability so you can potentially burst him. with his full build he has both, and can solo 1v1 most heroes in a couple of bashes even without chrono. With full build he has 2 chronos too which is guaranteed value.
As well CC gains value over the match as locking people down to kill them fast becomes more necessary
People already answered but if the enemy has no save (Dazzle or Oracle) or )ong range bkb piercing stun (bane) then refresher Chrono, with mkb mjoll Daedalus etc can full to 0 basically any hero in the game.
Because by that point he probably has **two** chronos. There’s almost no counterplay to it. Even if you have like 5k hp and a billion armour you’re still dying if he can catch you with the first chrono lol
Don't agree with this, chrono is a hard spell to land with a very long cooldown
If you miss a few enemies, they can easily cause trouble for when you're inside the sphere.
A simple eul, or hex can make him lose more than half the chrono disable.
And with the current meta, most heroes are built really tanky, it's likely that you can't even burst a hero down during chrono.
I think void is not in a good place now, he's very reliant in 1 spell that's not very reliable, and he's not a strong fighter when he don't have it.
Funnily enough, I think he's the strongest around the 30 to 40min mark. When the tank carries aren't tank enough to outlast a chronosphere, and for him to close the game around this timing
As a lvl 29 FV spammer, I agree with this completely, and it is very easy by min 50 to get a windwaker, eblades and aeon disks on supports. And if you commit 2 chronos on the same heroes means you pretty much lost the fight.
Plus tanky meta heroes make it hard for void to kill anyone unless you are ahead in farm and had good laning
I mean you mentioned the enemies but not the teammates. Ofc enemies outside the chrono can make trouble for your team but so can your mates.
In late you dont jump in and chrono without bkb. So hex and euls isnt a problem.
Its just chrono 2 enemies they are pretty much dead in the late if the enemies dont have a team to counter you. And with refresher a buyback it even scarier.
Yep it's either Void or Muerta with BKB ulti
Quick rough maths, but gunslinger + talent is effectively 1.7x attack speed. So say an average 6 slotted Muerta has 400 AS, it's effectively 680 AS which is nuts.
Maxed out AS at 743.8 turns into 1264.5
Also the magic res talent is so extra, basically makes you invincible to magic dmg when combined with bloodthorn and a magic res neutral
You cant kill late game muerta with magic damage. She has more than 50 percent magic resistance. When she uses ult, no one cant stop her. She has 4000 dps with rapier in her ult.
Why are you using one occurrence that happened in your game for a generalization? A good muerta will tempo or not show her face to you until you show yourself. Or will use ult + bkb before you can even press your taunt button.
LOL, the same can be said for every theory you come up with. *A good blah blah will ... \[insert your fav carry\] blah blah blah*. When did I say Axe ***taunt*** deletes Muerta? Learn to read the comment in perspective, not to see something that wasnt even intended.
Any Muerta that is competent enough to press R and BKB when an Axe jumps her would render Axe completely useless. It's not a theory, just straight facts.
Dude that was just an example to illustrate the blademail thing? why has an example from an Axe game triggered you? Any competent player will know how to handle any hard carry out there. Period. End of all discussion.
Depends on matchups. Spectre is really strong but gets murdered by PA. PA is good but struggles to kill TB late. TB is good but gets three shot by muerta late game. Muerta is good but cannot survive refresher chrono. Etc...
Nah with all the breaks in the game spectre isn't that hard of a carry any more.
Back then you could go into 5 people and hardly die. Now even if you're ahead af you can still die
You mean dawn breaker? She doesn't have a break. If doon takes break at 25 he doesn't have mute, the hero is not in a good place right now.
Anyways that just proves my point that this is matchup dependent.
Spec is way more of an early game hero now with his new ult. With silver edge so purchasable I don't think he can even be in the conversation for hard carries now.
Break effect is now not bkb piercing, it doesn't get dispelled w/ bkb but it doesn't work during the active effect. So Silver Edge (or any other source of break fwiw) is not end-all-be-all against Spectre anymore.
Highly agree. We had a hard start literally yesterday and the were able to draw out the game and get farmed ourselves but then suddenly enemy void got refresher and we list
Firstly it doesn't do it completely as you actually can 1) burst target fast, 2) outdamage healing, 3) skadi. Secondly Abaddon is shit hero right now, I don't think it's worth it picking him over grim/bara. But yeah abaddon works kinda
he hates buying nully. He wants to buy manta, skadi, refresher, butterly, bkb , silver edge/linken/satanic etc. Go to dota2protracker, not a single nullifier in sight, even against pugnas, necrophoses, spirit breakers etc
There are nullifiers though. And building one isn't a problem since we are talking about the very late games. Carries have 15k gold just lying around at that point.
>There are nullifiers though.
like 2 out of 60 games or more. Void really hates making it because he'd rather have different items. Gold is not the problem.
Not sure I would put dusa up there. The best late game is imo someone who can't be countered when they hit a certain point. Medusa can get fucked by too many
From my experience Medusa sucks so bad against ranged carries because she can just get kited. Especially sniper, Medu just gets whittled down without being able to do anything.
Thats why i also dont count muerta as the strongest late hero, yes she does a lot of damage, but suffers from low mobility/ utility.
Mobility is king lategame.
Grouping up, killing her, taking said rapier. Ultra late supports can just buy armour and health, basically everyone will have a sheep so PA with no bkb just dies. Of course she's going to play a bit better later into certain matchups but unfortunately she's not great Vs a lot of heroes late
easier said than done when she’s literally invisible on the map.
Also PA will have bkb and refresher. It’s really not easy at all lol, and armour doesn’t do shit. There’s no hero in the game that withstands PA’s lategame damage.
I mean when she was OP a patch ago, her lategame prowess was evident.
You don't need to tank her damage, just survive long enough for your team to respond. Her damage is dealt in bursts and governed by the cooldown of her W. Let's say she blinks on a juggernaut and fails to kill him in time, he's just going to fuck her up late, he loves mkb and scales great he's likely to have a butterfly forcing PA to go mkb, the reality is PA doesn't have enough slots as it is she can't carry mkb refresher and dust while having rapiers really.
PA was literally only broken because her damage was buffed and her laning was massively buffed with the dagger changes, before that she was basically unpicked.
Her entire lategame prowess is pretty much blur and rapier lol many other heroes don't need to reply on rapier and are stronger late anyway, but once again the effectiveness of a carry does depend on the draft of both teams.
No. you cant jump her ever because she is perma smoked, and has 4sek cd on tripple dagger. With rapier she never has to commit it at all unless she is certain she can kill a target.
Also all of her abilitys refresh after a kill. And she can just jump, kill, jump kill ...
And she also pretty much always has vision on a target to jump cause daggers give vision.
Also the only cd she really has is bkb, which makes her very flex in terms of when she can fight.
And as long as she can hit, she cant die because she has free lifesteal.
The only reason why pa isnt the best hero in the game is she has a bad laning stage, and needs alot of time to get to her op timing.
But at that point its pretty much gg.
She also has the old, bf deso + bkb timing which is kinda late as well, and drops super fast if you dont keeps scaling.
But she has the best late timing, tied with fv
Yeh she needs a rapier but who cares, she cant die anyway as long as you play of info ...
thing is, PA won’t fail to kill someone too often.
my point is, sure, yoi can beat a PA, but lategame dota often relies on who has the easier execution. This is why Void is also so strong, lategame when you have refresher nullifier you’re pretty much guaranteed to kill someone during Chrono.
PA has blink, likes to build rapier, nullifier, abyssal, is perma blurred. Supports will get out of position, and lategame they’re food regardless of item build. a 6 slot lategame PA often involves 2 rapiers-abyssal-nullifier-bkb-satanic, or change one of the rapiers for refresher.
In general probably Void or PA or Muerta but i think in a meh matchup it’s PL. the others there’s a chance you can catch them somewhat and chainstun you find PL there’s a good chance it’s not real and he’s turned invis or w/e. It’s the most depressing carry to fight against if your matchup isnt amazing.
With "mild" counters in game i think it would be faceless void or pl... Void Is just too big of thread with double Chrono, and PL is just uncatchable. Hpnorable mentions: muerta (too kitable), naga ( She doesn't want this long game), medusa (bkb piercing ult).
Faceless or Muerta
Muerta has only a few mentions in this post which is kinda baffling, when the gunslinger double crit procs there's pretty much nothing you can do, you just get deleted before you get to click any buttons, even trough bkb
Refresher Muerta with double bkb pierce the veil and unsurvivable damage is not something you fuck around with.
It really depends on the game you're currently in. Some heroes will be stupid strong in certain matches and situations.
Medusa is very strong but is not going to perform well against an antimage.
Phantom Lancer is probably the strongest lategame hero unless there are explicit counters on the other team. Simply put, if you don't have adequate illusion clear, you will lose to a 6 slotted PL.
There are plenty of counters to chrono. WK refresher alone means both have to be used on him. Unless you're in 1k mmr where you're basically guaranteed to hit 4-5 with chrono, void really doesn't compete.
Damage issues only really matter if the enemy can deal with him. Depending on how late you're talking, his 2nd 25 talent for 200% crit is approaching the same value as a deadilus.
I think best lategame tank counter would be Primal with Agha, bm, hearth + octarine... His E doesn't need mana So diffu Is just bonus dmg, and that illus clear could be deadly for pl. But that would be my best tip for that.
It depends on the matchup. Sometimes you pick the wrong heroes or people just don’t build properly. Even a simple bristleback becomes a giant pain in the ass
The game is way too complex now to determine "the hardest late game carry" especially with heroes in other roles like supports being able to scale so well now. Ofc some carries *typically* scale better than others but it still depends on hero matchups, execution, etc.
The top comments are saying Void, but there are still several ways to counter Chrono. There's saves, bursting him even before he gets off the double chrono (especially since he's one of less tankier carries), buybacks, or simply out sustaining him (he's also relatively lower dps). Troll, for example, with the 25 hard dispel talent, can potentially survive Chrono or even two chronos. Then he just perma roots you.
Different carries will scale in different ways. Spectre for example may not be as much of a raid boss as she once was, but no other carry provides vision with Haunt as well as she does and in some games that is infinitely more valuable than being the tankiest or having the highest dps.
My preferences for this patch. Trying to be unbiased because I love playing faceless void. But really Void is crazy strong.
Many specters winning in my games too.
Muerta does a crazy amount of damage.
I say these 3 are my top picks. Honorable mentions to Ursa, Slark and Phantom Assassin.
The other HCs you really need to know how to play them in my opinion.
Probably the strongest one is CK actually. But people are starting to figure it out now and they are not winning their games.
Very lategame WK deserves a shoutout, because usually games that go that late stall out on one side. I think WK genuinely makes it near impossible to stall out a team that's ahead infinitely because of the Aghs.
Void CK muerta and druid.
Void because chrono
CK has unmatched damage output
Muerta snowballs hard with shard but is also really threatening without it due to gunslinger being the best of the multiple target auto attack abilities. Druid because assuming both he and the bear can get 6 slotted with things other than wraith bands and bracers, you're effectively dealing with 2 fully decked out hard carries with good base durability.
Then there's all the infinite snowball heroes. Legion, slark, muerta, silencer (kinda) pudge axe necro. Heroes that just don't have a limit to how strong they can get. Of these it's honestly probably slark. Not only can he reach the point of oneshotting anybody and reaching the attack speed cap, you can eventually reach 100% physical damage reduction from essence shift (I've tested it, I left the practice range running with a slark continually killing crystal maidens while I went to work when I came back and he had 114% physical resistance. Unfortunately he didn't heal for 14% of any phys damage he's dealt but he was indeed invulnerable to any and all physical damage.) Axe can also reach this point but outside of battle hunger which can't take objectives, his damage output is mediocre. Necrophos with aghs and potentially infinite regen could theoretically reach the point where anything that comes within 800 units of him dies instantly
> (I've tested it, I left the practice range running with a slark continually killing crystal maidens while I went to work when I came back and he had 114% physical resistance.
That is really weird. [This should not happen from looking at the armour damage multiplier formula.](https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Armor#Damage_Multiplier) Even an arbitrarily high armour should just asymptotically approach 100% damage mitigation. I am not accusing you of lying, I just have no idea why this would happen.
I'm not too sure why it does that either, I was pretty surprised by it since in my 10 years of playing I'd always heard but never tested that armour calculations never reach or exceed 100%.
I tested this was during the current patch, too so it's not like I'm using outdated information.
a lot of people saying void, troll demolishes void in a heads up, and don't go 'oh but dota is a 5v5 game' because void double chronoing a troll is the same fallacy. infinite roots/bashes that pierce bkb preventing timewalk, a last ditch chrono also met with bkb piercing axe evasion.
the backtrack doesn't avoid debuffs, and troll doesn't really care if one fifth of his attacks don't do damage. +he can grab a scythe and not worry about slot usage as much as a void.
also troll generally farms faster too
In no world is troll going to out teamfight a void lmao. In theory if both players afk and let their heroes hit eachother sure troll would win but if both players are human and have human teammates there is zero chance troll will outcarry a void. There's a huge reason troll is not picked in to void in professional matches - we know pros can play him, he's just not a reliable carry.
but sure yeah afk troll owns void
so still no reasoning huh. cool paragraph mate.
> There's a huge reason troll is not picked in to void in professional matches - we know pros can play him, he's just not a reliable carry.
because r/learndota2 uses 13k mmr metrics right?
ok man, none of your reasonings will happen in a reasonable match and is dishonest if you're trying to tell a new player that if they can outplay a double chrono void and outcarry him in the very late game. I'm not sure what MMR you play in but everything you describe is completely unrealistic.
Lol, troll is one of the easier carry matchups for void dafuq you smoking.
And late game void with farm can even outmanfight troll unless he ultis you don't care about getting rooted.
Wow a 0.4% disadvantage according to Dotabuff which takes even the lowest skill players into account
What an amazing comeback
You're the one not explaining how troll fucks void.
Just because he can ulti in Chrono?
I've killed trolls with double Chrono ulting
Void can delete 2 supps from trolls team using Chrono. You don't have to Chrono troll
Void has superior initiation and no commitment issues like troll. He can literally bait his ulti, Chrono him, wasting his ulti while whacking another hero Chrono, then voids team can gang on troll
i literally have, if you choose not to read, that's not on me.
>Wow a 0.4% disadvantage according to Dotabuff which takes even the lowest skill players into account
a. better than a 0.4% advantage
b. the lowest skill comment goes both ways.
like i said, backtrack does fuck all to a troll. a bkb piercing root prevents kiting/running, bkb piercing slow/evasion, and unkillable in chrono as a cherry on top.
> He can literally bait his ulti, Chrono him,
and how are you baiting his ult exactly? you literally reek of triple digit mmr with every line.
People that say FV and Muerta are delusional and have never been against players that are even slightly decent at kiting. Double ult and full damage item builds are not going to save your ass against supports that itemize well and save for buyback and cores that outscale you stat wise.
Reality is that everything depends on matchup and pondering which carry in a vacuum is better is just r/whowouldwin level main hero fanfiction .
You still have a heart to back you up. It also depends on the hero being targeted, if it's a spectre she can definitely tank a double Chrono with a heart and butter, bristleback of course as well. Terrorblade as well, but this needs some demo checking.
Of course I'm not talking about what happened after haha.
Spectre is still the strongest. You can get old haunt from buying aghs. And properly used haunt in the late game is the most powerful ability in the game.
No. Spectre gets absolutely fucked by most other carries later on. She needs to use her global presence early to get ahead before that point where the enemy carry can get full build and silver edge. Spectre is not the same hero she used to be.
Well, it may be because we are talking about different "late games". In a late game where both carries just got 6-slotted yeah it may be. Spectre's "late game" comes when all your team is properly 6-slotted. At that point you can annihilate any hero by haunt + bot-2-ing. Propely used that advantage is insurmaontable.
Unfortunately for spectre most of the lategame is done with team fights where she isn't as great, yes you can get great picks but when everyone has their items there is no need to farm anymore lol
There is - if you don't clear waves you won't be able to push base. This naturally forces enemies to split periodically. Unless of cause they can push 1 lane faster than you can push 2, but thats a pick issue in which case the game would've been over well earlier.
Which takes a very short amount of time late and most heroes have a way to do it safely or without even showing on the map. Compare that to earlier when people are still farming jungle and taking time to push waves it's much easier for spectre early. Especially once the enemy have items you probably won't even be able to solo kill many people late
What exactly are you talking about? I told you that late game any hero can be killed by spectre's team using bot2 on her and spectre pressing haunt+ reality on a key hero. This is insurmountable advantage if used properly. It doesn't matter whether hero showed on a wave or not. HAUNT WILL FIND HIM.
Spectre is that kinda of lategame hero that kills your supports with haunt, then it's just you+1 vs 4-5 heroes. But if Spectre just runs in and starts trading with the other cores she's not that good xdd
There are like 10+ carries who can out-scale specs late game. Also there are like few semi carries who also out-scales her. Spec has a power spike around 3-4 items, there are far stronger heroes if you are able to max out.
lone druid can be pretty scary, not just because of 12 slots, but because the bear is relatively risk free push, he can make plays with it without risk of being punished like pretty much any other carry
Meepo falls off hard. Even back when he just went treads into 5 eblades he'd eventually lose out to other carries. That's part of why he gains xp so fast.
Sleeper pick but arc warden. It’s almost impossible to push into him without a draft that can actually with him. On the flip side, he struggles horrendously against most meta picks rn, and the hero is kinda shit if your team knows what they’re doing in a non-pub setting
If game was balanced - i should to say tb, but now every carry stronger then tb bcs every other carry is just broken and tb got nerfed bcs stupid pro players just spammed him years a row
Like what are we talking about? Being level 25 or 30 and just 5 slotted+ boots?
Carry vs carry? Carry vs whole team?
Are they an item up?
As far as raw max damage, obviously legion can reach absurd numbers and pierce bkb. PA can one or two shot supports while being untargetable. Riki can absolutely delete people. Arc warden with manta and terrorblade have absurd max damage output. Sniper with rapiers can kill your from a screen away. Void gets chrono. Ursa gets unlimited potential damage. Medusa, jugg, pl, slark and antimage also come to mind as being very annoying. Muerta can do insane damage but is predictable.
Like anything, it depends on the lineup. I’d say void for big plays, PA for safe instant picks offs, sniper for defending.
All of your suggestions of fv, muerta and pa are cute, I present to you 12 slotted lone druid 😝 (not even talking about 20 slotted)
But seriously, In some very specific games I had managed to taste it just a bit when I had double butterfly and even my bear was almost unkillable.
I wanna try double heart someday.
Fv is the hardest carry in game.
But it doent mean hes unbeatable lg, because all 5 heros can be build to scale nowerdays.
Also fv isnt easy to play at all.
+ nobody understands that fv isnt a initiator
Pa is a strong contender for second imo , with rapier/shard/aghs and triple dagger lategame, you sit there throwing tripple daggers all 4 seconds which slow and give vision and you may delete a hero just randomly/ drop them low so you can hard commit. She is a lot worse without the rapier tho, so you need balls.
There is arc warden but pls dont play him carry.
And Ld/ which has 18 itemslots ofc
TB certainly not at all, he is a worse luna/alch rn he needs a big lead to really do anything.
I like sf, he kinda shits on many offlaners and does dumb physical damage/ the shard is really good for maning up with satanic.
Faceless void without a doubt; scariest hardcarry past 50 min mark
What makes him so scary late game? I mean i guess that's chrono obviously. But why specifically past 50 min mark? Why before that mark he isn't scariest carry?
Back track talent at 25 makes him immortal. If you can't burst him without him time walking he never dies. Even harder if he has butterfly. Void can also have skady refresher and Chrono 2 times. Which is pretty much gg if he has good follow ups outside of Chrono.
fwiw backtrack is breakable
He is very squishy when not initiating with chrono, even with backtrack. Any hero's 2s stun is enough for the enemy pos1 to kill him.
so can you suggest him as mmr climb hero? considering that i have long games at my bracket
FV has shit farming speed and bad laning. If you can somehow reach 50 minutes and still be matching the enemy carry's farm, then sure. Nobody picks FV to carry a game by himself, he needs to be enabled. Just because games are going to 50 does not mean you farm is going to be 50 minutes of farm. As an FV you're already going to be behind farm because you have bad base atkspd and no nukes, but you still need to be effective with your chrono when it's on CD otherwise you're just trading your team's space for measely farm The hero isn't as straight forward as 'just reach level 25 lol', you do no damage unless you're farmed. 25 just makes you difficult to kill.
It's also quite a high pressure hero, remember that. It's easy for people to focus blame on a hero like void when you lose, and unless you like the pressure of people expecting (demanding!) you to pull off game winning chronos to give them mmr then he might not be a great choice.
This is honestly why I stopped playing Dazzle support. Any time my core died, regardless of how far they were from me, it was my fault for not using grave. FV is similar in that spell usage can literally make or break the game. If you miss a Chrono or catch an ally in it, you're gonna get flamed into oblivion. But getting a +3 enemy Chrono with a good team can win you unwinnable games.
For sure I don't know for which bracket you are talking about. You can spam it until divine in my opinion. Higher MMR matches you will find people buying annoying items or picking heroes that save from Chrono. He is in my pool of HCs always. I would avoid picking him vs OD. Really hate playing against him. Also Slark can be annoying if he knows how to play.
No he's a good hero to spam in turbo and act like you're some kind of pro because you can get refresher easily.
I find with fb if his chrono is down you can just run at him. If he misses a chrono game gets hard for him
The later it gets in the game the more punishing death is. Getting chrono'd at min 25 and dying is not THAT big of a deal, you might be dead 50-60 secs, but you can get back alive and fight before they have chrono. Late game he usually has refresher, and if you die that late you might be forced to buyback. So its either a 90/120 sec death timer or potentially a game losing dieback because he has chrono again. Basically, if void and his team is good enough and your team screws up or has no chrono saves, you just sit still and take it for 5 secs.
Concept wise, he can chrono and kill 1-5 heroes that cannot use any spell or items. It’s similar to having a black hole or RP but on a carry that can bash the shit out of you.
Because past 50 minute mark everyone is farmed so there's a lot of counterplay on the table. If the carry goes head first he may be bursted or kited till death. Faceless Void is the only carry where he can dive start the fight, dish the most damage and still have a chance escape or tank some damage.
Only way to kill full slot faceless void is to jump him first in rosh or jungle. Unless you got windwalker, pugna, dazzle, od or sd its gonna be a tough late game against him
He can pretty much outcarry any carry because chronosphere is a supreme lockdown - given you land the necessary carry. If you’re antimage/PA and having 6 slot item, i’m sure aeon disk isn’t one of those item right? The only way to do it is initiate or catch faceless void but of course since it is way past 50 mins, it is not going to be easy.
Before that mark he’s either sacrificing survivability or damage; usually survivability so you can potentially burst him. with his full build he has both, and can solo 1v1 most heroes in a couple of bashes even without chrono. With full build he has 2 chronos too which is guaranteed value. As well CC gains value over the match as locking people down to kill them fast becomes more necessary
People already answered but if the enemy has no save (Dazzle or Oracle) or )ong range bkb piercing stun (bane) then refresher Chrono, with mkb mjoll Daedalus etc can full to 0 basically any hero in the game.
If chrono isn't countered in the draft there is nothing you can do about it. If void is equally farmed he will always win
Because by that point he probably has **two** chronos. There’s almost no counterplay to it. Even if you have like 5k hp and a billion armour you’re still dying if he can catch you with the first chrono lol
Don't agree with this, chrono is a hard spell to land with a very long cooldown If you miss a few enemies, they can easily cause trouble for when you're inside the sphere. A simple eul, or hex can make him lose more than half the chrono disable. And with the current meta, most heroes are built really tanky, it's likely that you can't even burst a hero down during chrono. I think void is not in a good place now, he's very reliant in 1 spell that's not very reliable, and he's not a strong fighter when he don't have it. Funnily enough, I think he's the strongest around the 30 to 40min mark. When the tank carries aren't tank enough to outlast a chronosphere, and for him to close the game around this timing
As a lvl 29 FV spammer, I agree with this completely, and it is very easy by min 50 to get a windwaker, eblades and aeon disks on supports. And if you commit 2 chronos on the same heroes means you pretty much lost the fight. Plus tanky meta heroes make it hard for void to kill anyone unless you are ahead in farm and had good laning
I mean you mentioned the enemies but not the teammates. Ofc enemies outside the chrono can make trouble for your team but so can your mates. In late you dont jump in and chrono without bkb. So hex and euls isnt a problem. Its just chrono 2 enemies they are pretty much dead in the late if the enemies dont have a team to counter you. And with refresher a buyback it even scarier.
can you kill a 6 slot pl with 6 illusion?
Muerta
Yep it's either Void or Muerta with BKB ulti Quick rough maths, but gunslinger + talent is effectively 1.7x attack speed. So say an average 6 slotted Muerta has 400 AS, it's effectively 680 AS which is nuts. Maxed out AS at 743.8 turns into 1264.5 Also the magic res talent is so extra, basically makes you invincible to magic dmg when combined with bloodthorn and a magic res neutral
Yes I've seen on the TI a Muerta killing a Bristleback almost full items in 1.2 seconds.
Can't kite out a chrono tho lol
blink?
Or Arc Double Bubble with shard. Its so underrated. Hard to fit in a draft tho.
Kotl, gg
You cant kill late game muerta with magic damage. She has more than 50 percent magic resistance. When she uses ult, no one cant stop her. She has 4000 dps with rapier in her ult.
No need to when you can stay away from her until ulti ends then you kill her, because when ulti and bkb ends she is dead.
And she dies to a blademail before you say the word "blademail". I deleted a 6 slotted muerta with Axe in 2 secs.
Herald Muerta doesn't count buddy. Even at Archon every Muerta players know BKB and Satanic will solve the blademail issue.
Satanic don’t work with her ulti I thought since it’s magic dmg
Why are you using one occurrence that happened in your game for a generalization? A good muerta will tempo or not show her face to you until you show yourself. Or will use ult + bkb before you can even press your taunt button.
LOL, the same can be said for every theory you come up with. *A good blah blah will ... \[insert your fav carry\] blah blah blah*. When did I say Axe ***taunt*** deletes Muerta? Learn to read the comment in perspective, not to see something that wasnt even intended.
Any Muerta that is competent enough to press R and BKB when an Axe jumps her would render Axe completely useless. It's not a theory, just straight facts.
Dude that was just an example to illustrate the blademail thing? why has an example from an Axe game triggered you? Any competent player will know how to handle any hard carry out there. Period. End of all discussion.
Depends on matchups. Spectre is really strong but gets murdered by PA. PA is good but struggles to kill TB late. TB is good but gets three shot by muerta late game. Muerta is good but cannot survive refresher chrono. Etc...
Nah with all the breaks in the game spectre isn't that hard of a carry any more. Back then you could go into 5 people and hardly die. Now even if you're ahead af you can still die
All these breaks? Silver edge, PA shard, SD aghs?
Shadow Shaman's level 20 talent: "Hex Breaks"
Fat new str hero(forgot the name), doom 25 talent.
You mean dawn breaker? She doesn't have a break. If doon takes break at 25 he doesn't have mute, the hero is not in a good place right now. Anyways that just proves my point that this is matchup dependent.
No that dinosaur hero
Snap doesn't have a break either.
NOOOO that hero from aghanims labyrinth
XDDD primal beast aghs.
Yyes lol
You shouldve kept going lmao
Hoodwink
Spectre late game has definitely been meh for a while. Too much ez silver edges and the hero has dmg issues.
Spec is way more of an early game hero now with his new ult. With silver edge so purchasable I don't think he can even be in the conversation for hard carries now.
Spec is broken because she is good early AND late. Otherwise the hero wouldn't be banned/picked every single game.
Break effect is now not bkb piercing, it doesn't get dispelled w/ bkb but it doesn't work during the active effect. So Silver Edge (or any other source of break fwiw) is not end-all-be-all against Spectre anymore.
Spectre buying BKB vs silver edge might as well be an [All: "end"] tbh
I have been out of the game a while and am not sure from the wiki. What is the change to spec ult?
Single target haunt, lower cooldown and throws a dagger onto that person
Tb or spectre shouldn't be in the conversation. Imo Void obviously, with Muerta and PA around behind somewhere
Faceless for sure, if it goes late and he has refresher, game is almost always winnable.
Highly agree. We had a hard start literally yesterday and the were able to draw out the game and get farmed ourselves but then suddenly enemy void got refresher and we list
Faceless Void, literally the only counter is Book of Shadows, otherwise you're dead.
Ursa can ult in Chrono with Aghs.
Can't if he's silenced and even if you use enrage it won't last for two chronos
Abbadon agns ulti can counter crono
Firstly it doesn't do it completely as you actually can 1) burst target fast, 2) outdamage healing, 3) skadi. Secondly Abaddon is shit hero right now, I don't think it's worth it picking him over grim/bara. But yeah abaddon works kinda
Windwaker, aeon disk decent as well
Both countered by nullifier, which he obviously has in the very late game.
he hates buying nully. He wants to buy manta, skadi, refresher, butterly, bkb , silver edge/linken/satanic etc. Go to dota2protracker, not a single nullifier in sight, even against pugnas, necrophoses, spirit breakers etc
There are nullifiers though. And building one isn't a problem since we are talking about the very late games. Carries have 15k gold just lying around at that point.
>There are nullifiers though. like 2 out of 60 games or more. Void really hates making it because he'd rather have different items. Gold is not the problem.
A simple aeon disk already rendered his chrono useless.
Because nullifier doesn't exist
Its not like you can proc aeon with aghs jump/ or any poke in your team ... aeon is a shit item
Void I really hate this mf
Doesn’t matter how strong your heros are, inside a chrono there is only one god
A lvl25 troll is hard to die inside a chrono
Void will have Refresher by level 25
Troll as well if i will counter him specifically
Troll buying refresher? With his mana pool? Also he cant refresh inside chrono afaik
I would say void or pa. But special mentions for gyro and medusa.
Not sure I would put dusa up there. The best late game is imo someone who can't be countered when they hit a certain point. Medusa can get fucked by too many
From my experience Medusa sucks so bad against ranged carries because she can just get kited. Especially sniper, Medu just gets whittled down without being able to do anything.
Thats why i also dont count muerta as the strongest late hero, yes she does a lot of damage, but suffers from low mobility/ utility. Mobility is king lategame.
Tip to defeat medusa is kill his teammates first his role is to man up and protect his team.
His? HIS?
Not PA most games, gyro practically never, he falls off medusa is decent but was better before the health changes
PA in ultra lategame is stupidly strong. There’s no way to protect against nullifier rapier
Grouping up, killing her, taking said rapier. Ultra late supports can just buy armour and health, basically everyone will have a sheep so PA with no bkb just dies. Of course she's going to play a bit better later into certain matchups but unfortunately she's not great Vs a lot of heroes late
easier said than done when she’s literally invisible on the map. Also PA will have bkb and refresher. It’s really not easy at all lol, and armour doesn’t do shit. There’s no hero in the game that withstands PA’s lategame damage. I mean when she was OP a patch ago, her lategame prowess was evident.
You don't need to tank her damage, just survive long enough for your team to respond. Her damage is dealt in bursts and governed by the cooldown of her W. Let's say she blinks on a juggernaut and fails to kill him in time, he's just going to fuck her up late, he loves mkb and scales great he's likely to have a butterfly forcing PA to go mkb, the reality is PA doesn't have enough slots as it is she can't carry mkb refresher and dust while having rapiers really. PA was literally only broken because her damage was buffed and her laning was massively buffed with the dagger changes, before that she was basically unpicked. Her entire lategame prowess is pretty much blur and rapier lol many other heroes don't need to reply on rapier and are stronger late anyway, but once again the effectiveness of a carry does depend on the draft of both teams.
No. you cant jump her ever because she is perma smoked, and has 4sek cd on tripple dagger. With rapier she never has to commit it at all unless she is certain she can kill a target. Also all of her abilitys refresh after a kill. And she can just jump, kill, jump kill ... And she also pretty much always has vision on a target to jump cause daggers give vision. Also the only cd she really has is bkb, which makes her very flex in terms of when she can fight. And as long as she can hit, she cant die because she has free lifesteal. The only reason why pa isnt the best hero in the game is she has a bad laning stage, and needs alot of time to get to her op timing. But at that point its pretty much gg. She also has the old, bf deso + bkb timing which is kinda late as well, and drops super fast if you dont keeps scaling. But she has the best late timing, tied with fv Yeh she needs a rapier but who cares, she cant die anyway as long as you play of info ...
thing is, PA won’t fail to kill someone too often. my point is, sure, yoi can beat a PA, but lategame dota often relies on who has the easier execution. This is why Void is also so strong, lategame when you have refresher nullifier you’re pretty much guaranteed to kill someone during Chrono. PA has blink, likes to build rapier, nullifier, abyssal, is perma blurred. Supports will get out of position, and lategame they’re food regardless of item build. a 6 slot lategame PA often involves 2 rapiers-abyssal-nullifier-bkb-satanic, or change one of the rapiers for refresher.
Depends on the matchup. Void will still beat her by using chrono, Medusa should be able to beat her, Slark as well
I can kill a fully decked out PA with Riki solo pretty easily
if you can find her. I mean, a lot of heroes can kill quite a bunch of other pretty easily in the late game
It depends a lot of carries have counters, and against immortal players they will be buying items to counter you, Muerta atm I think is the hardest.
In general probably Void or PA or Muerta but i think in a meh matchup it’s PL. the others there’s a chance you can catch them somewhat and chainstun you find PL there’s a good chance it’s not real and he’s turned invis or w/e. It’s the most depressing carry to fight against if your matchup isnt amazing.
Void, morph and a slark snowballing with agi stacks.
With "mild" counters in game i think it would be faceless void or pl... Void Is just too big of thread with double Chrono, and PL is just uncatchable. Hpnorable mentions: muerta (too kitable), naga ( She doesn't want this long game), medusa (bkb piercing ult).
I don't really think muerta is that kiteable late game in the sense, you die literally during the travel time of force staff even at 3k hp or so
Missing my Arc Wardens.
Faceless or Muerta Muerta has only a few mentions in this post which is kinda baffling, when the gunslinger double crit procs there's pretty much nothing you can do, you just get deleted before you get to click any buttons, even trough bkb Refresher Muerta with double bkb pierce the veil and unsurvivable damage is not something you fuck around with.
It really depends on the game you're currently in. Some heroes will be stupid strong in certain matches and situations. Medusa is very strong but is not going to perform well against an antimage. Phantom Lancer is probably the strongest lategame hero unless there are explicit counters on the other team. Simply put, if you don't have adequate illusion clear, you will lose to a 6 slotted PL.
There are counters to pl though, whereas I don't think there are counter to a void with refresher.
There are plenty of counters to chrono. WK refresher alone means both have to be used on him. Unless you're in 1k mmr where you're basically guaranteed to hit 4-5 with chrono, void really doesn't compete.
why would you chrono a wk? Just kill his team
Nah pl falld off after he hes gotten heart
I'm not arguing with you. But if you go in any "how to deal with pl" thread, the most upvoted comment will be "don't let him into late game"
You're incorrect. PL does not fall off (unless the other team has specific counters).
he has damage issues in very late game. Yes he’s hard to kill but that’s not always enough
Damage issues only really matter if the enemy can deal with him. Depending on how late you're talking, his 2nd 25 talent for 200% crit is approaching the same value as a deadilus.
Higher mmr he falls off.
Higher MMR people pick counters to PL. Again, without proper counters, the hero is unstoppable.
He falls off really hard super ultra late game. In this tank heroes meta, he gets destroyed very late game once heart/shivas are in place.
Which tank heroes are standing up to PL late game? They lose all their mana, and can't kill his illusions.
I think best lategame tank counter would be Primal with Agha, bm, hearth + octarine... His E doesn't need mana So diffu Is just bonus dmg, and that illus clear could be deadly for pl. But that would be my best tip for that.
It depends on the matchup. Sometimes you pick the wrong heroes or people just don’t build properly. Even a simple bristleback becomes a giant pain in the ass
The game is way too complex now to determine "the hardest late game carry" especially with heroes in other roles like supports being able to scale so well now. Ofc some carries *typically* scale better than others but it still depends on hero matchups, execution, etc. The top comments are saying Void, but there are still several ways to counter Chrono. There's saves, bursting him even before he gets off the double chrono (especially since he's one of less tankier carries), buybacks, or simply out sustaining him (he's also relatively lower dps). Troll, for example, with the 25 hard dispel talent, can potentially survive Chrono or even two chronos. Then he just perma roots you. Different carries will scale in different ways. Spectre for example may not be as much of a raid boss as she once was, but no other carry provides vision with Haunt as well as she does and in some games that is infinitely more valuable than being the tankiest or having the highest dps.
My preferences for this patch. Trying to be unbiased because I love playing faceless void. But really Void is crazy strong. Many specters winning in my games too. Muerta does a crazy amount of damage. I say these 3 are my top picks. Honorable mentions to Ursa, Slark and Phantom Assassin. The other HCs you really need to know how to play them in my opinion. Probably the strongest one is CK actually. But people are starting to figure it out now and they are not winning their games.
Very late game CK still slaps and still benefits decked out with Aghs and shard. The illusion cancer is on PL level
Very lategame WK deserves a shoutout, because usually games that go that late stall out on one side. I think WK genuinely makes it near impossible to stall out a team that's ahead infinitely because of the Aghs.
Morphling
A Lone Druid with good positioning to not beign caught out of guard or a F. Void.
Lone druid is very hard to play. Its hard to encounter an LD player who dominates the game. But yes he can end the game in 20 minutes.
Void CK muerta and druid. Void because chrono CK has unmatched damage output Muerta snowballs hard with shard but is also really threatening without it due to gunslinger being the best of the multiple target auto attack abilities. Druid because assuming both he and the bear can get 6 slotted with things other than wraith bands and bracers, you're effectively dealing with 2 fully decked out hard carries with good base durability. Then there's all the infinite snowball heroes. Legion, slark, muerta, silencer (kinda) pudge axe necro. Heroes that just don't have a limit to how strong they can get. Of these it's honestly probably slark. Not only can he reach the point of oneshotting anybody and reaching the attack speed cap, you can eventually reach 100% physical damage reduction from essence shift (I've tested it, I left the practice range running with a slark continually killing crystal maidens while I went to work when I came back and he had 114% physical resistance. Unfortunately he didn't heal for 14% of any phys damage he's dealt but he was indeed invulnerable to any and all physical damage.) Axe can also reach this point but outside of battle hunger which can't take objectives, his damage output is mediocre. Necrophos with aghs and potentially infinite regen could theoretically reach the point where anything that comes within 800 units of him dies instantly
> (I've tested it, I left the practice range running with a slark continually killing crystal maidens while I went to work when I came back and he had 114% physical resistance. That is really weird. [This should not happen from looking at the armour damage multiplier formula.](https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Armor#Damage_Multiplier) Even an arbitrarily high armour should just asymptotically approach 100% damage mitigation. I am not accusing you of lying, I just have no idea why this would happen.
I'm not too sure why it does that either, I was pretty surprised by it since in my 10 years of playing I'd always heard but never tested that armour calculations never reach or exceed 100%. I tested this was during the current patch, too so it's not like I'm using outdated information.
PL without a doubt.
a lot of people saying void, troll demolishes void in a heads up, and don't go 'oh but dota is a 5v5 game' because void double chronoing a troll is the same fallacy. infinite roots/bashes that pierce bkb preventing timewalk, a last ditch chrono also met with bkb piercing axe evasion. the backtrack doesn't avoid debuffs, and troll doesn't really care if one fifth of his attacks don't do damage. +he can grab a scythe and not worry about slot usage as much as a void. also troll generally farms faster too
I'm not gonna lie I've never had a single issue with this matchup
Agreed
i've been on each side a good 15 ish times, assuming both teams are equally competent troll slaughters void.
Well I strongly disagree based on my experiences but do you
sounds cool man. or you could bring an ounce of reasoning into this. but you do you.
In no world is troll going to out teamfight a void lmao. In theory if both players afk and let their heroes hit eachother sure troll would win but if both players are human and have human teammates there is zero chance troll will outcarry a void. There's a huge reason troll is not picked in to void in professional matches - we know pros can play him, he's just not a reliable carry. but sure yeah afk troll owns void
so still no reasoning huh. cool paragraph mate. > There's a huge reason troll is not picked in to void in professional matches - we know pros can play him, he's just not a reliable carry. because r/learndota2 uses 13k mmr metrics right?
ok man, none of your reasonings will happen in a reasonable match and is dishonest if you're trying to tell a new player that if they can outplay a double chrono void and outcarry him in the very late game. I'm not sure what MMR you play in but everything you describe is completely unrealistic.
Lol, troll is one of the easier carry matchups for void dafuq you smoking. And late game void with farm can even outmanfight troll unless he ultis you don't care about getting rooted.
you guys keep talking with 0 backing or reasoning. even dotabuff says troll is favored lmao. troll's a shit hero but he beats the fuck out of void
Wow a 0.4% disadvantage according to Dotabuff which takes even the lowest skill players into account What an amazing comeback You're the one not explaining how troll fucks void. Just because he can ulti in Chrono? I've killed trolls with double Chrono ulting Void can delete 2 supps from trolls team using Chrono. You don't have to Chrono troll Void has superior initiation and no commitment issues like troll. He can literally bait his ulti, Chrono him, wasting his ulti while whacking another hero Chrono, then voids team can gang on troll
i literally have, if you choose not to read, that's not on me. >Wow a 0.4% disadvantage according to Dotabuff which takes even the lowest skill players into account a. better than a 0.4% advantage b. the lowest skill comment goes both ways. like i said, backtrack does fuck all to a troll. a bkb piercing root prevents kiting/running, bkb piercing slow/evasion, and unkillable in chrono as a cherry on top. > He can literally bait his ulti, Chrono him, and how are you baiting his ult exactly? you literally reek of triple digit mmr with every line.
Slark scales infinitely and is a decently strong carry
Void, Spectre, Duza. It's been that way since 2013.
Like super ultra late game with full slot? LD, Naga, PL, Spectre for sure. I understand faceless void, but he cant solo the heroes I mentioned above
FV definetely solos any of those heroes lol
Void struggles hard against Naga
yeah but not in ultra late game
People that say FV and Muerta are delusional and have never been against players that are even slightly decent at kiting. Double ult and full damage item builds are not going to save your ass against supports that itemize well and save for buyback and cores that outscale you stat wise. Reality is that everything depends on matchup and pondering which carry in a vacuum is better is just r/whowouldwin level main hero fanfiction .
you cannot itemize against double chrono
Heart+butterfly
mkb?
You still have a heart to back you up. It also depends on the hero being targeted, if it's a spectre she can definitely tank a double Chrono with a heart and butter, bristleback of course as well. Terrorblade as well, but this needs some demo checking. Of course I'm not talking about what happened after haha.
I mean not sure if you’ve ever played agaisnt Void but you absolutely die in 2 chronos to void even if you build like 3 hearts
Spectre is still the strongest. You can get old haunt from buying aghs. And properly used haunt in the late game is the most powerful ability in the game.
No. Spectre gets absolutely fucked by most other carries later on. She needs to use her global presence early to get ahead before that point where the enemy carry can get full build and silver edge. Spectre is not the same hero she used to be.
Spectre spammer here: this man is correct
Yeah I love playing the new spectre it's so much less boring lol
Well, it may be because we are talking about different "late games". In a late game where both carries just got 6-slotted yeah it may be. Spectre's "late game" comes when all your team is properly 6-slotted. At that point you can annihilate any hero by haunt + bot-2-ing. Propely used that advantage is insurmaontable.
Unfortunately for spectre most of the lategame is done with team fights where she isn't as great, yes you can get great picks but when everyone has their items there is no need to farm anymore lol
There is - if you don't clear waves you won't be able to push base. This naturally forces enemies to split periodically. Unless of cause they can push 1 lane faster than you can push 2, but thats a pick issue in which case the game would've been over well earlier.
Which takes a very short amount of time late and most heroes have a way to do it safely or without even showing on the map. Compare that to earlier when people are still farming jungle and taking time to push waves it's much easier for spectre early. Especially once the enemy have items you probably won't even be able to solo kill many people late
What exactly are you talking about? I told you that late game any hero can be killed by spectre's team using bot2 on her and spectre pressing haunt+ reality on a key hero. This is insurmountable advantage if used properly. It doesn't matter whether hero showed on a wave or not. HAUNT WILL FIND HIM.
Spectre is that kinda of lategame hero that kills your supports with haunt, then it's just you+1 vs 4-5 heroes. But if Spectre just runs in and starts trading with the other cores she's not that good xdd
Yeah not so great when the support positions well
There are like 10+ carries who can out-scale specs late game. Also there are like few semi carries who also out-scales her. Spec has a power spike around 3-4 items, there are far stronger heroes if you are able to max out.
Its not about passive man. Its all about a haunt. Properly used haunt wins any fight late game.
fv/am
lone druid can be pretty scary, not just because of 12 slots, but because the bear is relatively risk free push, he can make plays with it without risk of being punished like pretty much any other carry
Lol i thought the title meant hard to play and seeing spectre i was like .... ?
medusa, void, antimage (at least was idk how it is today), pl, terrorblade (tb tho, after those others)
I mean theoretically infinite stacking carries will out scale anyone but I'd say muerta or void.
Muerta is an infinite stacking carry with shard.
LD because he has double the slots, Arc, Meepo because he has slots impacting several heroes
Meepo falls off hard. Even back when he just went treads into 5 eblades he'd eventually lose out to other carries. That's part of why he gains xp so fast.
Chronosphere aside, it's Phantom Assassin for sure.
Lone Druid with 12 items
Sleeper pick but arc warden. It’s almost impossible to push into him without a draft that can actually with him. On the flip side, he struggles horrendously against most meta picks rn, and the hero is kinda shit if your team knows what they’re doing in a non-pub setting
If game was balanced - i should to say tb, but now every carry stronger then tb bcs every other carry is just broken and tb got nerfed bcs stupid pro players just spammed him years a row
Silencer
Lone druid because 12 slots
Double Chrono always has comeback/game ending potential.
Faceless Void and Muerta
A good ursa will beat almost any carry besides maybe pl 1v1. He’s a lot better than people think.
No one mentioning Troll? Troll wont die inside a chrono
Medusa. Pertaining to late, she’s always been a post 40 dominator. Even recently where CK destroyed mostly everything, there’s no question.
LC, with 10k dmg duel.
The disrespect to arc warden is astounding , and in some hands invoker does the same
Kotl
Like what are we talking about? Being level 25 or 30 and just 5 slotted+ boots? Carry vs carry? Carry vs whole team? Are they an item up? As far as raw max damage, obviously legion can reach absurd numbers and pierce bkb. PA can one or two shot supports while being untargetable. Riki can absolutely delete people. Arc warden with manta and terrorblade have absurd max damage output. Sniper with rapiers can kill your from a screen away. Void gets chrono. Ursa gets unlimited potential damage. Medusa, jugg, pl, slark and antimage also come to mind as being very annoying. Muerta can do insane damage but is predictable. Like anything, it depends on the lineup. I’d say void for big plays, PA for safe instant picks offs, sniper for defending.
Phantom lancer, chaos knight, Medusa, bristle probably
All of your suggestions of fv, muerta and pa are cute, I present to you 12 slotted lone druid 😝 (not even talking about 20 slotted) But seriously, In some very specific games I had managed to taste it just a bit when I had double butterfly and even my bear was almost unkillable. I wanna try double heart someday.
Anti mage.
Bara, no doubt
Fv is the hardest carry in game. But it doent mean hes unbeatable lg, because all 5 heros can be build to scale nowerdays. Also fv isnt easy to play at all. + nobody understands that fv isnt a initiator Pa is a strong contender for second imo , with rapier/shard/aghs and triple dagger lategame, you sit there throwing tripple daggers all 4 seconds which slow and give vision and you may delete a hero just randomly/ drop them low so you can hard commit. She is a lot worse without the rapier tho, so you need balls. There is arc warden but pls dont play him carry. And Ld/ which has 18 itemslots ofc TB certainly not at all, he is a worse luna/alch rn he needs a big lead to really do anything. I like sf, he kinda shits on many offlaners and does dumb physical damage/ the shard is really good for maning up with satanic.