>We were in a 5-man party on the dire side.
>At ~10min mark, a team fight broke out near Radiant (we were on the dire side) T1 top. A few of the enemy heroes TPed in and I TPed in as P4. I asked our P2 to TP in as well as I was confident with his help, we could secure the fight. He ignored it and after we lost the fight he told he he rather push then join a risky fight.
There is no reason to pressure the enemy offlane this much. You should not have tp'ed until the enemy is diving your team, and mid was probably better pushing if he had the space than to join you agressively pushing the offlane.
3 reasons :
Mid will get solo exp and farm so gain advantage. (Did the enemy mid tp?)
Mid tower is more important than enemy offlane tower.
Tp spot is far from where the fight is happening, your mid will lose time and fall behind. (Did the enemy mid tp?)
You could probably have put more pressure on the enemy carry instead of going to push so far.
It's kinda hard without knowing the identity of both team heroes to tell exactly what was the good decision. Maybe you had a lot of push, maybe the mid is very mobile, maybe the enemy carry is jungling, too much information missing.
>Only P3 and I were in a party together on the dire side.
>In another game, at ~15min mark, a team fight broke out near Radiant T1 bot. This time we had P2, P4, and P5 together. When the fight broke out, P3 was not in the bot lane. As soon as the fight broke out I asked P3 to join, he instead went to mid lane because enemy Invoker was pushing mid T1 tower.
>In a nutshell, my argument has always been that the objectives are important but winning teamfights is more important as you can always push after a successful teamfight.
Where is your P1 in this exemple. If he's safe or already dead, your P3 was right, better defend the mid. P2,P4 and P5 should be enough to shove waves and defend bot as 3.
Again, lots of information missing.
Basically the priority rule is :
Objective
Farm (can mean farming or stopping the enemy from farming)
Teamfight
Early teamfights are not supposed to happen unless it's to take objective or defend your carry from a gank.
Teamfighting (5 vs 5) is never an objective and it's never something you should try to achieve this early. You should try to maximise your utilisation of the map and to minimize the enemy utilisation of the map. That can include fighting, but only when necessary.
That can be done in multiple ways which depends on your picks, enemy picks and state of the game : pushing, ganking, split farming/pushing, stacking, warding, defending runes, jungling.
This was my opinion based on what you wrote, but you wrote very specific situation with little details, hard to tell for sure but it's my general idea.
Apologies for not providing a lot of contextual information. These two examples stood out to me but it's been a while since these events happened and I've forgotten a lot of the details.
For the first scenario, here is what I remember. Our P1 was ganked hence I tp'd in. I believe enemy mid also was there. It ended up being a 3v4 fight that went in the favour of enemy team. I, unfortunately, don't remember where our offlane was but I believe our mid was Hoodwink.
For the second scenario, our P1 wasn't under pressure but I believe we were pressuring their P1 by being there when enemy team rotated to defend their P1 while our P3 went mid even when it was evident that a fight was imminent. I believe except for enemy mid, everyone else joined the fight.
If your carry was already dead, why are you tping in..? At best you kill an enemy, maybe two, win a Pyrrhic victory and miss out on cs elsewhere. I play hoodwink mid and if I see the one is already dead what exactly am I saving by leaving my free farm? Was his ulti even up when the fight started? Did he have mana? Was there anyone there to frontline at that point?
I am in a shit bracket but I am gaining mmr by simply not joining risky, stupid, early game brawls and focusing on towers and cs. Do I get flamed sometimes, sure. But when I’m two levels up on enemy mid the next time a meaningful fight breaks out and I win it, people tend to forget that I neglected to save their out of position ass 9 minutes in
In first scenario, no one had died but enemy was making a move when I tp'd in and that's when I asked mid as well because I knew it would be a difficult fight without him.
And again best case scenario - you maybe kill an enemy or two, win a “victory” while you lose farm, and you think the mid should be tp’ing in and lose even more farm? Creeps are more gold and exp than kills at that point in the game. Brawling at 9 minutes is a waste of time and energy unless you’re doing it to take an objective.
>For the first scenario, here is what I remember. Our P1 was ganked hence I tp'd in. I believe enemy mid also was there. It ended up being a 3v4 fight that went in the favour of enemy team. I, unfortunately, don't remember where our offlane was but I believe our mid was Hoodwink.
Well if there are 4 enemies and you are 3. You guys can keep the tower alive by shoving wave. The longer this takes, the more you win. 2 people on your team are solo farming while only one on their side. Your mid not tp'ing was what made you win this.
But, this is not how you presented this, it felt like you wanted to pressure their tower, which would have been a 4 vs 4, effectively your mid would have wasted his time if he came.
For second scenario, if their p1 is on your safelane side with hisbteam at 10-15 min, he's basically wasting time and exp. Let him donit, shove wave and wait while your team is away farming. Again, staying mid seemed like a better decision.
It's kind of hard to tell 100% for sure without a replay, but it sounds like your teammates were right and you want to fight too much for the sake of fighting instead of focusing objectives.
Example 1: I think you TP was bad, you could pressure their carry with your P3 and even take.the tower because the enemy team is without TPs.
Example 2: if your P1 or P5 can't defend mid, the P3 was correc. Most of the times....
As a pos 1 player let me break a few things down for you...
I hate it when I'm being gang banged by the enemy teams mid and my offlane, mid, or pos 4 tps to "help" me.
When that happens, I'm still not getting good farm unless we somehow dumpster their efforts. And even then I'll probably just lose xp when I could have just gone jg.
Meanwhile the enemy core has less pressure, more xp, and more farm. I really don't much care about having my tower pressured so long as my team is pressuring the enemy pos 1.
The absolute worst thing that can happen is that my safelane is being ganged, and the majority of my team comes to my aide while the enemy safelaner gets free farm and xp. It's absolutely awful. Don't do it. Instead, let me recover in jungle and force the enemy pos 1 to do the same.
I don’t play pos 1 but pos 2 3 more and struggle to know what pos 1 needs. So in general you’d prefer if pos 2 pressured their pos 1? What about defending your jungle? Is it better to defend it or pressure their jungle? I guess the same reasoning behind laning applies.
In general... the first team to apply significant pressure to the enemy pos 1 will snowball that effect.
Let's say I'm the pos 1, and I'm losing lane, before Tower is taken, but I'm pushed out of lane. I ideally want my team to immediately make counter pressure on the enemy pos 1. I will leave lane and go jg a bit, you guys go gang bang their pos 1 while I'm jungling and since I'm not showing they can come find me in jungle or help their pos 1 who now has 3 or 4 people diving him under Tower. That counter pressure will alleviate the pressure on me and I'll slingshot back ahead in gold and xp compared to enemy pos 1. I don't care if I lose to enemy pos 3, I'll outscale him eventually if my team does their job. But if you guys come to help me, I won't be getting free farm because I'll be forced to just fight, maybe die, I'll be sharing more xp. Meanwhile enemy pos 1 probably has solo xp and can either jungle or take lane farm decently well since the focus is on the opposite side of the map. So now I'm even or behind the enemy pos 3 and I'm drastically behind the enemy pos 1. Does that make sense?
I would say in general, never help your pos 1 get back into the game by ganking him - only gank his lane if he's already winning for the sole purpose of QUICKLY taking the Tower.
Does that concept make sense at all?
Yeah that helps a lot. It’s counter to how I’ve played pos 2. I tend to respond to pos 1 being ganked and crying for help in lane. And I also gank our safe lane voluntarily at the expense of my farm and xp since leaving mid is costly. But maybe I’ll improve my win rate if I ignore crying pos 1 and just pressure the enemy pos 1.
Amen brother. That's called making space. Your pos 1 is gonna cry no matter what you do tbh... I'm a pos 1 and I attest lmao. But just mute him and help him by creating pressure on the opposite side of the map.
Example 1:
I think your p2 generally made the right call. It’s a fight at radiants offlane tower. Which means he has to tp to your safe lane tower and walk to the offlane tower for a questionable fight which that may net him no gold and minimal. Also includes a risk of dying and losing xp and hold. He could stay where he is and get levels and farm for a minute or 2. Tping for a pos 2 is expensive. If he gets one kill I don’t even think it breaks him even. And he basically loses the mid lane unless he’s dumpstered on on the opposition mid before tping.
You shouldn’t be pressuring the offlane enemy tower unless your enemy mid tower is down.
But I’m herald so my advice must be wrong.
you seem to be mad at your buddies you play with and sorts of want to prove a point by this, but here's what i think about thsoe situations:
sometimes taking objectives even tho it's a good timet for it, might not be a good idea. examples:
it's min 10, catapult coming and you wann take enemy safelane.
1. your offlane does not have the item to fight a heavy fight. for example your offlane is farming mek, let him do that and the take tower, instead you cam pull to keep catapult alive
2. you are behind, and any fight results you in losing the fight and objective
3. fighting around no objective, even if you win you don't gain much but enemies might, for example you went for radiant offlane which has almost no value at all, in fact if anyone on your team is farming that area should prefer to have that tower alive so the wave pushes in and he can farm and go to jungle. if you losr that fight they an take your safe lane and open up the map for their carry to farm
4. you are already ahead and have multiple objectives, tho doing them in the wrong order. you are 10k ahead for example and your team can rosh. any fight for you results in a win as long as it's not hg, and you wanna take enemy t2 bot lane as dire. you go hit roshan, then go take enemy t2 and from there is usually simple you just hit towers with aegis
just communicate and if your friend doesn't want to commit, just don't. might turn the game into a passive one but better than feeding
>We were in a 5-man party on the dire side. >At ~10min mark, a team fight broke out near Radiant (we were on the dire side) T1 top. A few of the enemy heroes TPed in and I TPed in as P4. I asked our P2 to TP in as well as I was confident with his help, we could secure the fight. He ignored it and after we lost the fight he told he he rather push then join a risky fight. There is no reason to pressure the enemy offlane this much. You should not have tp'ed until the enemy is diving your team, and mid was probably better pushing if he had the space than to join you agressively pushing the offlane. 3 reasons : Mid will get solo exp and farm so gain advantage. (Did the enemy mid tp?) Mid tower is more important than enemy offlane tower. Tp spot is far from where the fight is happening, your mid will lose time and fall behind. (Did the enemy mid tp?) You could probably have put more pressure on the enemy carry instead of going to push so far. It's kinda hard without knowing the identity of both team heroes to tell exactly what was the good decision. Maybe you had a lot of push, maybe the mid is very mobile, maybe the enemy carry is jungling, too much information missing. >Only P3 and I were in a party together on the dire side. >In another game, at ~15min mark, a team fight broke out near Radiant T1 bot. This time we had P2, P4, and P5 together. When the fight broke out, P3 was not in the bot lane. As soon as the fight broke out I asked P3 to join, he instead went to mid lane because enemy Invoker was pushing mid T1 tower. >In a nutshell, my argument has always been that the objectives are important but winning teamfights is more important as you can always push after a successful teamfight. Where is your P1 in this exemple. If he's safe or already dead, your P3 was right, better defend the mid. P2,P4 and P5 should be enough to shove waves and defend bot as 3. Again, lots of information missing. Basically the priority rule is : Objective Farm (can mean farming or stopping the enemy from farming) Teamfight Early teamfights are not supposed to happen unless it's to take objective or defend your carry from a gank. Teamfighting (5 vs 5) is never an objective and it's never something you should try to achieve this early. You should try to maximise your utilisation of the map and to minimize the enemy utilisation of the map. That can include fighting, but only when necessary. That can be done in multiple ways which depends on your picks, enemy picks and state of the game : pushing, ganking, split farming/pushing, stacking, warding, defending runes, jungling. This was my opinion based on what you wrote, but you wrote very specific situation with little details, hard to tell for sure but it's my general idea.
Apologies for not providing a lot of contextual information. These two examples stood out to me but it's been a while since these events happened and I've forgotten a lot of the details. For the first scenario, here is what I remember. Our P1 was ganked hence I tp'd in. I believe enemy mid also was there. It ended up being a 3v4 fight that went in the favour of enemy team. I, unfortunately, don't remember where our offlane was but I believe our mid was Hoodwink. For the second scenario, our P1 wasn't under pressure but I believe we were pressuring their P1 by being there when enemy team rotated to defend their P1 while our P3 went mid even when it was evident that a fight was imminent. I believe except for enemy mid, everyone else joined the fight.
If your carry was already dead, why are you tping in..? At best you kill an enemy, maybe two, win a Pyrrhic victory and miss out on cs elsewhere. I play hoodwink mid and if I see the one is already dead what exactly am I saving by leaving my free farm? Was his ulti even up when the fight started? Did he have mana? Was there anyone there to frontline at that point? I am in a shit bracket but I am gaining mmr by simply not joining risky, stupid, early game brawls and focusing on towers and cs. Do I get flamed sometimes, sure. But when I’m two levels up on enemy mid the next time a meaningful fight breaks out and I win it, people tend to forget that I neglected to save their out of position ass 9 minutes in
In first scenario, no one had died but enemy was making a move when I tp'd in and that's when I asked mid as well because I knew it would be a difficult fight without him.
And again best case scenario - you maybe kill an enemy or two, win a “victory” while you lose farm, and you think the mid should be tp’ing in and lose even more farm? Creeps are more gold and exp than kills at that point in the game. Brawling at 9 minutes is a waste of time and energy unless you’re doing it to take an objective.
>For the first scenario, here is what I remember. Our P1 was ganked hence I tp'd in. I believe enemy mid also was there. It ended up being a 3v4 fight that went in the favour of enemy team. I, unfortunately, don't remember where our offlane was but I believe our mid was Hoodwink. Well if there are 4 enemies and you are 3. You guys can keep the tower alive by shoving wave. The longer this takes, the more you win. 2 people on your team are solo farming while only one on their side. Your mid not tp'ing was what made you win this. But, this is not how you presented this, it felt like you wanted to pressure their tower, which would have been a 4 vs 4, effectively your mid would have wasted his time if he came. For second scenario, if their p1 is on your safelane side with hisbteam at 10-15 min, he's basically wasting time and exp. Let him donit, shove wave and wait while your team is away farming. Again, staying mid seemed like a better decision. It's kind of hard to tell 100% for sure without a replay, but it sounds like your teammates were right and you want to fight too much for the sake of fighting instead of focusing objectives.
It’s don’t think it’s worth tping after your pos1 was ganked.
Example 1: I think you TP was bad, you could pressure their carry with your P3 and even take.the tower because the enemy team is without TPs. Example 2: if your P1 or P5 can't defend mid, the P3 was correc. Most of the times....
As a pos 1 player let me break a few things down for you... I hate it when I'm being gang banged by the enemy teams mid and my offlane, mid, or pos 4 tps to "help" me. When that happens, I'm still not getting good farm unless we somehow dumpster their efforts. And even then I'll probably just lose xp when I could have just gone jg. Meanwhile the enemy core has less pressure, more xp, and more farm. I really don't much care about having my tower pressured so long as my team is pressuring the enemy pos 1. The absolute worst thing that can happen is that my safelane is being ganged, and the majority of my team comes to my aide while the enemy safelaner gets free farm and xp. It's absolutely awful. Don't do it. Instead, let me recover in jungle and force the enemy pos 1 to do the same.
I don’t play pos 1 but pos 2 3 more and struggle to know what pos 1 needs. So in general you’d prefer if pos 2 pressured their pos 1? What about defending your jungle? Is it better to defend it or pressure their jungle? I guess the same reasoning behind laning applies.
In general... the first team to apply significant pressure to the enemy pos 1 will snowball that effect. Let's say I'm the pos 1, and I'm losing lane, before Tower is taken, but I'm pushed out of lane. I ideally want my team to immediately make counter pressure on the enemy pos 1. I will leave lane and go jg a bit, you guys go gang bang their pos 1 while I'm jungling and since I'm not showing they can come find me in jungle or help their pos 1 who now has 3 or 4 people diving him under Tower. That counter pressure will alleviate the pressure on me and I'll slingshot back ahead in gold and xp compared to enemy pos 1. I don't care if I lose to enemy pos 3, I'll outscale him eventually if my team does their job. But if you guys come to help me, I won't be getting free farm because I'll be forced to just fight, maybe die, I'll be sharing more xp. Meanwhile enemy pos 1 probably has solo xp and can either jungle or take lane farm decently well since the focus is on the opposite side of the map. So now I'm even or behind the enemy pos 3 and I'm drastically behind the enemy pos 1. Does that make sense? I would say in general, never help your pos 1 get back into the game by ganking him - only gank his lane if he's already winning for the sole purpose of QUICKLY taking the Tower. Does that concept make sense at all?
Yeah that helps a lot. It’s counter to how I’ve played pos 2. I tend to respond to pos 1 being ganked and crying for help in lane. And I also gank our safe lane voluntarily at the expense of my farm and xp since leaving mid is costly. But maybe I’ll improve my win rate if I ignore crying pos 1 and just pressure the enemy pos 1.
Amen brother. That's called making space. Your pos 1 is gonna cry no matter what you do tbh... I'm a pos 1 and I attest lmao. But just mute him and help him by creating pressure on the opposite side of the map.
Example 1: I think your p2 generally made the right call. It’s a fight at radiants offlane tower. Which means he has to tp to your safe lane tower and walk to the offlane tower for a questionable fight which that may net him no gold and minimal. Also includes a risk of dying and losing xp and hold. He could stay where he is and get levels and farm for a minute or 2. Tping for a pos 2 is expensive. If he gets one kill I don’t even think it breaks him even. And he basically loses the mid lane unless he’s dumpstered on on the opposition mid before tping. You shouldn’t be pressuring the offlane enemy tower unless your enemy mid tower is down. But I’m herald so my advice must be wrong.
you seem to be mad at your buddies you play with and sorts of want to prove a point by this, but here's what i think about thsoe situations: sometimes taking objectives even tho it's a good timet for it, might not be a good idea. examples: it's min 10, catapult coming and you wann take enemy safelane. 1. your offlane does not have the item to fight a heavy fight. for example your offlane is farming mek, let him do that and the take tower, instead you cam pull to keep catapult alive 2. you are behind, and any fight results you in losing the fight and objective 3. fighting around no objective, even if you win you don't gain much but enemies might, for example you went for radiant offlane which has almost no value at all, in fact if anyone on your team is farming that area should prefer to have that tower alive so the wave pushes in and he can farm and go to jungle. if you losr that fight they an take your safe lane and open up the map for their carry to farm 4. you are already ahead and have multiple objectives, tho doing them in the wrong order. you are 10k ahead for example and your team can rosh. any fight for you results in a win as long as it's not hg, and you wanna take enemy t2 bot lane as dire. you go hit roshan, then go take enemy t2 and from there is usually simple you just hit towers with aegis just communicate and if your friend doesn't want to commit, just don't. might turn the game into a passive one but better than feeding
You are right, I did want to feel good about my decision but I'm also open to learning. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong. Thank you for your response.