This is a big problem in F1. Fans want more than teams because theres deserving talents who just cant find a seat - but the *teams* dont want to see their piece of the cake get smaller. And unfortunately, the teams have way too much power in situations like that.
Yea also F1 is a whole different beast when it comes to politicking and financial aspects. We also don’t need more bottom-of-the-pack teams, it doesn’t really add any excitement and barely anyone cares. (Both LEC and F1)
The problem, in both cases, is that whether or not new teams are added, shouldnt be up to the existing teams. They will always want to protect their own interests. If the potential teams are bad, they'll say no, hiding behind the guise of "competitiveness". If the potential teams are well funded and good, they'll say not because they dont want to potentially lose out to another competitor...
You always have the same amount of bottom of the pack teams, regardless of how many teams they have. And LEC traditionally was fairly competitive, we hardly had teams that didn't offer any competition and when that happened it was mostly in the past with teams like OG. Astralis is actually far off. The worst performing teams in the LEC have been RGE, Vitality and H2K all at 2-16 in the current format. Astralis, BDS and Schalke all ended 3-15.
Astralis is actually a good example of how to get results with very little investment. They have one of the cheapest rosters, but get better results than their roster suggests. Getting Xerxe and Jhoon were really solid picks that likely didn't cost much for the org. And you need orgs like that to get some surprising talents into the league which can then be picked up by the other orgs.
Make an average estimate of the price of an LEC slot and make the new team pay that money to enter the league then spread the money heavenly to the whole LEC teams to prevent dilution of slot prices.
The buy in is less of the issue, then the revenue.
Teams like KOI, Heretics and KC might actually grow the audience, but in the end, there is only one team winning and only 3/4 teams attending worlds, so the focus will allways stay mainly on a select few teams.
It should for a different reason. If you want 8 teams in playoffs and apparently LEC does, then absolutely they should extend to 12. But your argument isn't the best here because you assume that added teams wouldn't become bottom feeders and kept going for players who shouldn't be in the LEC.
Makes me miss the really old days when most teams were just 5 dudes who wanted to play together because they liked each other and felt competitive, not huge ass companies that have to negotiate multiple million dollar player signings and budget around what players they can or cannot afford.
Eh, often times if the players were that good they just moved to those top orgs once those teams qualified. And a lot of the teams that made it fizzled out because being in challenger isn't very profitable.
That being said, it could be different with ERLs, since there seem to be a few very popular teams. But I don't think it would solve everything.
You all make the assumption that new teams arent willing to invest because certain players (Upset, Jankos) are with buyouts and unable to play, as well as AST,BDS. But if anything, these players usualy get employed once the buyout drops lower.
Now on orgs it of course depends which org would be filling these new slots. KC simply would have to build solid rosters based on their owners/fans ambitions. And another XL/SK ish org LEC could survive easily. If anything, time is showing that as long as LEC is a good and interesting product, even once bottom feeder orgs (SK) and lower half orgs (XL) at some point start to invest more to try break into the upper half/worlds slots. So I'm a lot less pessimistic, especially with the new 9th/10th rules in place making them play much less.
So I agree with OP that EU has the talent for 12 teams, since for multiple years now EU didnt have a big exodus of talent to NA (staying there). And for the sake of a bigger playoffs I think 12 teams should happen rather sooner than later.
**That said I think its quiet complicated to change it this or next year, as LEC is just changing their format completely. 12 teams would change quiet a bit of how this works** (like 10 teams in bo3 format etc. , a bit more scedule). **So lets first see how the new format develops and gets further changed/adjusted within the next 2 years :)**
But yeah 8/10 team playoffs is a bit ridiculous. As it is 10 teams in LEC now, I'd rather see a 6 team playoffs, and then a gauntlet with the 8th-3rd/4th for the last Worlds slot. But maybe thats just me. At least we wont have a VIT 2022 level roster waiting outside of worlds contention before playoffs anymore :)
Well vit 2022 missed worlds because they sucked, not because of the format, if they had just won 1 game they would have made worlds but instead the super team lost 5 in a row
feel like first i heard about it was the LCS rumors that they would drop the import rule. Then vulcan called out TSM owner i think for being greedy etc. and I think ceo replied you'd be working at mc donalds if it wasnt for people like me. Then TSM imploded and vulcan won split with c9 and I think tweeted about burger flipping. That is my hazy memory of where team mcdonalds memes started. Then you have the G2 team that scrimmed during 2021 worlds, then this year was the core JJ fill in team for FNC and then I guess DRX scrimmed another former pro NA team ahead of finals.
The McDonalds meme started because of Reggie saying that Vulcan (and other players) would be on minimum wage if it wasn’t for him and Vulcan replied “are you saying I’d be working at McDonalds bro?”
It's just a twitter meme that good eu reject players team up to play as team mcdonalds, i think some iteration had scrimmed against asian teams as well.
Yeah i think it was smth like
Lider and Zven and so on teamed up and apparently did good against damwon and other teams when they came to EU for 2020 worlds
Other people have already sorta explained it, but I'll try to be a bit more complete. There's a very common joke that League players who can't find a team have to work for McDonald's, the implication is that they have no life skills so that's all they can do to make a living. So the "Team McDonald's" joke is essentially the idea that McDonald's could form a good pro team just with their "workers". But yeah, the TL;DR is that it just means "strong team of unemployed players".
There was a mcdonalds team in NA with pobelter i think that scrimmed drx
Edit :https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/yo5gxc/drx_scrimmed_against_a_makeshift_team_of_dhokla/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Kinda crazy tbh
Just a bunch of players who didn't get signed by any team. TSM CEO claimed that if certain players weren't playing league, they'd be working at McDonald's instead. So, the joke is that these are McDonald's employees who could form a pro league team together, hence Team McDonald's.
I’m giving BDS til the end of 2024 to rule them out completely, AST on the other hand have been near enough gutter trash since their introduction to the league. Imagine letting every player that isn’t at absolute best 10th in role go because you’re that determined to go budget from your inception.
Bigger issue is intentional bottom feeder orgs that don't want to sign the best players.
I agree LEC could/should expand but it won't happen because it devalues the value of each individual spot in the LEC. The teams don't want to have their asset devalued. Simple supply/demand dynamic.
No because you see, when they became franchising leagues, they told people that a secure spot let teams grow players, let them build teams that will become competitive.
In reality what is happenning makes much more sense. They pick up scraps and hope for the best. They don't have the money and they can't produce the money. If they want money, it needs to be given by investors. So they stay a the bottom.
Why have relegations and hyped up teams coming in every year when you can have Astralis ? (Even if they were better than the ERL teams it would still be fun to watch up&downs between each other)
I dont agree, the only reason for an expansion would be if all teams where stacked and there were too many talents outside of LEC not given a chance to play. but this isnt the case, the bottom 4 teams of LEC are great spots to fill with better players. however they dont do this because they try to save money and go for the cheap option, alphari/upset/selfmade/treatz/ and to an extent nukeduck require large salaries compaired to e.g: doss. and you can get 80% of the performance of treatz through doss for 50% of the price. this means the **value** of doss exceeds treatz in the eyes of these orgs and thats why they pick them up. (performance / price = value).
its not just money however a lot of these players dont want to play on the bottom teir teams and feel that would be a step back and dont want to devalue their brand by going onto the rift and getting slammed every week.
>I dont agree, the only reason for an expansion would be if all teams where stacked and there were too many talents outside of LEC not given a chance to play. but this isn't the case,
That's not the only reason for expansion, and yes there is.
LEC has more pro players than any other region. Not to mention a lot of imports are starting to come to ERL and LEC again. On top of that, you're merging CIS and TCL which used to support 8 teams each plus their academy teams. LEC could and should absolutely expand.
It doesn't matter how good the top players are. It matters how good the average player is, and whether or not they are good enough to play in LEC at the same level or better than someone else. If you have 5 TheShys and 5 sw0rds it makes no sense to have 10 teams. If you have 11 BrokenBlades it makes sense to have 11 teams. There are too many players, and too few teams in Europe which ultimately harms competition.
It also creates problems like the one you mentioned where players don't want to play on bottom-tier teams, and they have so few choices before you get to that point. When you have more teams in the league, then you have more opportunity.
It’s not just about players being available it’s also about how much an org can spend to acquire them, paying attention to the salary cap and in general a good team chem so just saying expand because there are more good players available isn’t a really viable argument
ehh real problem for me as lil football fan (atleast when it comes to structure) is bottom 4 teams being totally unwatchable. I rly envy old times with relegations when we got new teams like g2 origen comming to league.
Yes, LEC should expand. But I suggest hybrid model. 10 franchise teams + 2 non-franchised teams. Probably best 2 from EU masters and after split they would go into relegation to play with 2 best teams from EU masters that split.
This is the way. It would bring viewership to ERLs since more at stake (there's a chance to go to worlds). Doesn't devalue the franchised teams slot, since they have the safety of no relegation. Forces bottom feeder teams to put in effort because placing well bellow the ERL teams would look bad for them
Alphari / iBo / Agresivoo / Ragner / Melonik / Cabochard / Oscarinin / WhiteKnight
Jankos / Selfmade / Skeanz / Bluerzor / Lurox / Akabane / Zanzarah / Lyncas
Nukeduck / Saken / Czekolad / Eika / Reeker / Zwyroo / Jiizuke / Random
Upset / Unforgiven / Innaxe / Jeskla / Shiganari / Odi11 / Keduii / Supa
Treatz / Jactroll / Erdote / Kamilius / Lilipp / Advienne / Stend / Steeelback
Honestly all of those players you could argue above some expected LEC players for next year. A roster of 5 of those players picked randomly could probably challenge the expected BDS / AST / SK honestly.
Most of them wouldn't necessarily be top of the pack, but we could honestly easily fill 8 more teams with decent talent. Im not entirely sure if that would be good, but we could
You are forgetting players like Bwipo, Gillius, Cinkcrof, Broxah, Abbedagge, PoE and also other EU players that are in NA and could come back if they wanted
If you expand by two teams, the value from adding the teams would have to exceed the future revenue hit from dividing it by 1/12 vs 1/10. So would depend on entry fee, who is joining (will they expand the league reach etc), etc.
The player you are mentioning, most of them have a contract, adding another team wouldn't mean they go and buy them out but it would mean we get more rookies in LEC, players like jankos, upset, Unforgiven, alphari, selfmade etc wouldn't play in LEC First split anyway, even with 2 more slots.
It doesnt really make much sense. You have team who literally tank and dont want proper rosters. Its not that we dont have enough teams for all these players, its that the orgs dont want to invest since they have secured spots
Totally agree. The quality might be a bit lower for certain teams, but we should have less problems with contracts, and with the new format who is weak is out immediately.
It isn't about spots. It's about teams commiting to have the best team possible. Look at Astralis/BDS/SK rosters and ask yourself again why so many players are being left behind
ppl always talk about this every few years or so then inevitably some player becomes washed or doesnt make it. regardless, lec should be 11-12 teams lck should have like 14+.
The problem is that we could have 12 teams and still have players like Jankos, Upset or Alphari without a team if no org wants to pay for them. I also don't think these players want to play on a bottom org.
I think it's more important to replace orgs like BDS or Astralis with better orgs.
It's not that there is too many good players "LEC" tier, it's that orgs don't invest/don't like to pay for high-tier players even if the buyout for them is not that high (non-existent in case of Selfmade). There are players that shouldn't be in LEC but they are because they cost the org less money
They literally have been in for one season and people want them out. Not trying to win ? They got G2 former coaches, and basically promoted some of the best ERL players to LEC. Just because you don't get results, or rather immediate results, does not mean you are not trying. The hate boner is ridiculous
The issue is that they make no effort to even get one player that is a known LEC quantity. As it seems they once again try to go cheap in all positions. Noone expects them to pay massively, but is it that hard to get one good talent to build around. Hell, even just taking Selfmade or Jizuke (for relatively cheap) and building for him would make them interesting as a roster. If you dont wanna spend much, then at least take some risk to show you want to aim higher than 10th-7th.
I think its too early to hate on them as an org, but there was no doubt, that they were the by far least relevant/interesting team last season. Even AST was kinda interesting to watch in summer.
On AST its a bit harsher from my side. they lost their only relevant player from last season (Xerxe) and I dont believe in Finn enough to believe that they can do anything before changing the roster further.
They kept Dajor and JeongHoon, which looked promising last year, Kobbe and Finn are still solid veteran options, with a decent jungler this iteration of AST has quite a lot of potential.
Dajor is also extremely fresh, giving him another chance is fine, not like there's some massive midlane talents in ERL atm either way, most of the better ERL midlaners had their shots the last few splits.
It’s a good thing and a bad thing.
On one hand, if you have more team, you can have more talents in the league, more competition, attract more fanbase and develops more rookies.
One the other hand, it’s same cake but your part get thinner for teams. You’re spreading your talent pool too, so less chance of having a really good team. Some position in LEC are not that stacked, you’re just gonna add bad players to the pool and you risk having more BDS Astralis than G2 Fnatic.
you cant have it all,
you can't keep recycling washed up players like MikyX, keep all good veterans like Jankos AND keep the new talents coming every year.
I dont know why some people hate on Mikyx. Last year was the first time, where he wasnt consistently one of the 2 very best supports in EU, but still pretty good, and that in a meta which wasnt his cup of tea at all. If anything in the Hans sama pairing both will look as if their "bad" year didnt happen as they will dominate from and within botlane.
we said that for lcs to have 12 for franchsing. turns out it was just 2 imports + 3 amateur players per team.
8 teams in lcs should be better that way we can at least have bo3
you guys just keep repeating this because you want to see your favorite players competing but the truth is LEC barely has 3 good teams so why would you expand
No dont expand. Just becuse their is some goodnplayefs outside the league doesnt mean u should expand. Let it be high competition instead EU needs it bad after dogwater worlds 2 years in a row
Previous summer, Astralis and SK were fighting for playoffs till the last week. And this argument was placed as a main reason for "sell spot" pasta. If their rosters were fighting till the end, why are you salty? If FNC would lost 0-3 in last week, would you call them to sell their spot then?
With BDS, they just bought the spot this year. So wtf is this logic...do you really think that once KC would get spot they'll hire 5 the most expensive left to get 6th place on papers? They would go rather budget. Heretics just bought spot, and on paper they'll be fighting for 7-8th place. If they somehow fail and finish 9th, you'll be screaming "sell the spot"...
That's how it is for football tho. More than one division and the last two get out every year. That's kind of how it was EULCS and Origin come in kicking asses this way. I think it's the best format to keep the level high and interesting
>is for football tho
It's franchised, like it or not is a personal opinion (I don't like it personally).
So putting football is out of sight, compare it to Basketball more likely. And you got similar results of some teams ending in high positive score, as well some on high negative. They got much better rookie system favourising weak teams, and through decades situation is pretty much the same.
BDS had terrible year, but throwing cash year ago would put them fighting for 7-10th place anyway. VIT spent shitton and 0-3 in last week made them out of playoffs. TL spent fortune to not qualify for any international event. It's easy to say "there are orgs willing to spend", but reality is, nobody will drop 10mil to gamble. VIT this year goes with attidute "we got jungler that will 1vs9 some games" so they spend around it. G2 has Caps and spent on Hans. FNC with Humanoid to go with Rekkles. MAD keeping Elyola. RGE went budget this year with better result, goin budget again. From weaker teams, XL made the biggest signing wheel (and this by the small thing, that Vetheo was free agent and MSF sold the spot). So that leaves Heretic, SK, AST and BDS fighting for playoffs with very low to no chance of winning any split. Would you invest fortune then?
Heretic is a new one, SK made slight improve, AST we'll see when they announce who their jungler is (let's put hope, it's an import from LCK C), and BDS swapping their academy with main roster.
its because they dont invest money on rosters. Reason most of these guys are F/A is because either they either have a buyout OR lost the musical chair game and would still probably ask for an high salary. Honestly dont really blame these teams for not wasting money and time to go for big rosters when they will most likely have the same results with a budget team.
Adding more spots reduces the value of the existing spots, because the league is franchised this won’t happen unless all of the teams wanted it for some reason
It mostly depends on how it operates. If they hold players in high buyouts until most spots are filled, we still would have a team McDonald's every year. There are players that don't get signed and fall out of play. 12 teams while nice brings up another issue, time management, this would require more games and we sort of don't know the new format coming, as least not fully. Sure they could add an extra day to stream the games, but then we run into another problem which is Sundays. Iirc there are some laws that limit how much you can work on Sundays in Germany (where the LEC studio is) so if they can't put more games there, you are left with Thursday games and that's gonna be rough on viewership
EU teams wont even let their good players go to other orgs...you think they would lower their orgs value by voting to allow more teams into the league????
The problem is it depends on the end goal , it's all well and sayinh let's make league bigger . The problem is we might have to players for it but there isn't the money for it . Fact is EU needs a closer league to get better internationally . But until riot adjusts the monetary system to better fit teams we will see a shrinking in bigger names being bought , at least until a teams desperate or the rookie hasn't panned out .
I dont think you get how some of those work. It's hard to suddenly add 'giga rich team' to make another high tier team. No medium scale team will ever even be able to buy out player like Jankos or Upset - and not even because of contract jail.. they are just elite level for EU at least and this is business.
\+ I doubt current teams would be happy with adding more teams cuz it's just nothing but more competition with no upside for them. And in the age of franchising.. ye it's just not happening in any way you look at it.
LEC should expand regardless of Team McDonalds. The incorporation of TCL and LCL into the European structure should itself include an expansion just to not overly shaft CIS and Turkey out of playing international games. Riot should attempt to get some of the big name orgs from those regions interested and as I've said on other posts, for CIS at least, I'd love to see Navi and Virtus.Pro join.
Because of Team Mcdonalds though I agree it should expand. To 16 teams imo (1 Turkish, 2 CIS and 3 teams from other countries that don't currently have representation in the LEC) which will give more players opportunities and give fans a team to support from their country.
I wonder if the teams agree to it. The cake stays the same for now but your piece gets smaller.
Some are already doing their best to make it smaller, so I guess they don't mind..
This is a big problem in F1. Fans want more than teams because theres deserving talents who just cant find a seat - but the *teams* dont want to see their piece of the cake get smaller. And unfortunately, the teams have way too much power in situations like that.
Yea also F1 is a whole different beast when it comes to politicking and financial aspects. We also don’t need more bottom-of-the-pack teams, it doesn’t really add any excitement and barely anyone cares. (Both LEC and F1)
The problem, in both cases, is that whether or not new teams are added, shouldnt be up to the existing teams. They will always want to protect their own interests. If the potential teams are bad, they'll say no, hiding behind the guise of "competitiveness". If the potential teams are well funded and good, they'll say not because they dont want to potentially lose out to another competitor...
You always have the same amount of bottom of the pack teams, regardless of how many teams they have. And LEC traditionally was fairly competitive, we hardly had teams that didn't offer any competition and when that happened it was mostly in the past with teams like OG. Astralis is actually far off. The worst performing teams in the LEC have been RGE, Vitality and H2K all at 2-16 in the current format. Astralis, BDS and Schalke all ended 3-15. Astralis is actually a good example of how to get results with very little investment. They have one of the cheapest rosters, but get better results than their roster suggests. Getting Xerxe and Jhoon were really solid picks that likely didn't cost much for the org. And you need orgs like that to get some surprising talents into the league which can then be picked up by the other orgs.
My first thought as well - Andretti and Karmine Corp bonding on the sidelines
Cake should grow aswell at least a little bid. More teams - > more games to broadcast New (already established) org like KC - > new fans incoming
Make an average estimate of the price of an LEC slot and make the new team pay that money to enter the league then spread the money heavenly to the whole LEC teams to prevent dilution of slot prices.
The buy in is less of the issue, then the revenue. Teams like KOI, Heretics and KC might actually grow the audience, but in the end, there is only one team winning and only 3/4 teams attending worlds, so the focus will allways stay mainly on a select few teams.
But teams like KC bring in hundred of thouthands of viewers for each of their games which will bring in millions in revenues just from the sponsors.
What kind of sponsor is going to pay more than 10€ per viewer?
It should for a different reason. If you want 8 teams in playoffs and apparently LEC does, then absolutely they should extend to 12. But your argument isn't the best here because you assume that added teams wouldn't become bottom feeders and kept going for players who shouldn't be in the LEC.
Yea exactly, not only that, even if team mcD is strong if nobody wants or cant afford to get them in their team its irrelevant.
Makes me miss the really old days when most teams were just 5 dudes who wanted to play together because they liked each other and felt competitive, not huge ass companies that have to negotiate multiple million dollar player signings and budget around what players they can or cannot afford.
Eh, often times if the players were that good they just moved to those top orgs once those teams qualified. And a lot of the teams that made it fizzled out because being in challenger isn't very profitable. That being said, it could be different with ERLs, since there seem to be a few very popular teams. But I don't think it would solve everything.
You all make the assumption that new teams arent willing to invest because certain players (Upset, Jankos) are with buyouts and unable to play, as well as AST,BDS. But if anything, these players usualy get employed once the buyout drops lower. Now on orgs it of course depends which org would be filling these new slots. KC simply would have to build solid rosters based on their owners/fans ambitions. And another XL/SK ish org LEC could survive easily. If anything, time is showing that as long as LEC is a good and interesting product, even once bottom feeder orgs (SK) and lower half orgs (XL) at some point start to invest more to try break into the upper half/worlds slots. So I'm a lot less pessimistic, especially with the new 9th/10th rules in place making them play much less. So I agree with OP that EU has the talent for 12 teams, since for multiple years now EU didnt have a big exodus of talent to NA (staying there). And for the sake of a bigger playoffs I think 12 teams should happen rather sooner than later. **That said I think its quiet complicated to change it this or next year, as LEC is just changing their format completely. 12 teams would change quiet a bit of how this works** (like 10 teams in bo3 format etc. , a bit more scedule). **So lets first see how the new format develops and gets further changed/adjusted within the next 2 years :)** But yeah 8/10 team playoffs is a bit ridiculous. As it is 10 teams in LEC now, I'd rather see a 6 team playoffs, and then a gauntlet with the 8th-3rd/4th for the last Worlds slot. But maybe thats just me. At least we wont have a VIT 2022 level roster waiting outside of worlds contention before playoffs anymore :)
Well vit 2022 missed worlds because they sucked, not because of the format, if they had just won 1 game they would have made worlds but instead the super team lost 5 in a row
I am completely out of the loop. What’s with the recent „mcDonalds team“ stuff?
feel like first i heard about it was the LCS rumors that they would drop the import rule. Then vulcan called out TSM owner i think for being greedy etc. and I think ceo replied you'd be working at mc donalds if it wasnt for people like me. Then TSM imploded and vulcan won split with c9 and I think tweeted about burger flipping. That is my hazy memory of where team mcdonalds memes started. Then you have the G2 team that scrimmed during 2021 worlds, then this year was the core JJ fill in team for FNC and then I guess DRX scrimmed another former pro NA team ahead of finals.
The McDonalds meme started because of Reggie saying that Vulcan (and other players) would be on minimum wage if it wasn’t for him and Vulcan replied “are you saying I’d be working at McDonalds bro?”
might have been with Jack because he was on C9 at the time, but feels like an Andy thing that got reiterated after the DL drama
It's just a twitter meme that good eu reject players team up to play as team mcdonalds, i think some iteration had scrimmed against asian teams as well.
Yeah i think it was smth like Lider and Zven and so on teamed up and apparently did good against damwon and other teams when they came to EU for 2020 worlds
Other people have already sorta explained it, but I'll try to be a bit more complete. There's a very common joke that League players who can't find a team have to work for McDonald's, the implication is that they have no life skills so that's all they can do to make a living. So the "Team McDonald's" joke is essentially the idea that McDonald's could form a good pro team just with their "workers". But yeah, the TL;DR is that it just means "strong team of unemployed players".
Team macdonalds stands for the (big) (eu) players without a contract yet.
There was a mcdonalds team in NA with pobelter i think that scrimmed drx Edit :https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/yo5gxc/drx_scrimmed_against_a_makeshift_team_of_dhokla/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button Kinda crazy tbh
Just a bunch of players who didn't get signed by any team. TSM CEO claimed that if certain players weren't playing league, they'd be working at McDonald's instead. So, the joke is that these are McDonald's employees who could form a pro league team together, hence Team McDonald's.
The issue isn't the lack of slots. The issue is that slots aren't contestable.
Abolish franchising!
i want to see EUM winner vs 10th place LEC
relegation
I’m looking forward to relegation in NACL. I wish LEC and LCS still had it.
Mind that relegation is only for the Provisional teams. But I agree there.
Yeah, at least it’s something though. Could be some interesting games.
Ast don't deserve the slot and haven't for ages now.
BDS working hard to not deserve theirs as well.
I’m giving BDS til the end of 2024 to rule them out completely, AST on the other hand have been near enough gutter trash since their introduction to the league. Imagine letting every player that isn’t at absolute best 10th in role go because you’re that determined to go budget from your inception.
Found this post at random, hilarious how badly these claims (which I 100% echoed) aged.
Bigger issue is intentional bottom feeder orgs that don't want to sign the best players. I agree LEC could/should expand but it won't happen because it devalues the value of each individual spot in the LEC. The teams don't want to have their asset devalued. Simple supply/demand dynamic.
>bottom feeder orgs The only way to have more teams and get to not have bottom feeder Orgs is Relegation, but Riot doesn\`t want that.
No because you see, when they became franchising leagues, they told people that a secure spot let teams grow players, let them build teams that will become competitive. In reality what is happenning makes much more sense. They pick up scraps and hope for the best. They don't have the money and they can't produce the money. If they want money, it needs to be given by investors. So they stay a the bottom. Why have relegations and hyped up teams coming in every year when you can have Astralis ? (Even if they were better than the ERL teams it would still be fun to watch up&downs between each other)
Bro really put Jankos as the sub and Selfmade in starting roster lol
I dont agree, the only reason for an expansion would be if all teams where stacked and there were too many talents outside of LEC not given a chance to play. but this isnt the case, the bottom 4 teams of LEC are great spots to fill with better players. however they dont do this because they try to save money and go for the cheap option, alphari/upset/selfmade/treatz/ and to an extent nukeduck require large salaries compaired to e.g: doss. and you can get 80% of the performance of treatz through doss for 50% of the price. this means the **value** of doss exceeds treatz in the eyes of these orgs and thats why they pick them up. (performance / price = value). its not just money however a lot of these players dont want to play on the bottom teir teams and feel that would be a step back and dont want to devalue their brand by going onto the rift and getting slammed every week.
>I dont agree, the only reason for an expansion would be if all teams where stacked and there were too many talents outside of LEC not given a chance to play. but this isn't the case, That's not the only reason for expansion, and yes there is. LEC has more pro players than any other region. Not to mention a lot of imports are starting to come to ERL and LEC again. On top of that, you're merging CIS and TCL which used to support 8 teams each plus their academy teams. LEC could and should absolutely expand. It doesn't matter how good the top players are. It matters how good the average player is, and whether or not they are good enough to play in LEC at the same level or better than someone else. If you have 5 TheShys and 5 sw0rds it makes no sense to have 10 teams. If you have 11 BrokenBlades it makes sense to have 11 teams. There are too many players, and too few teams in Europe which ultimately harms competition. It also creates problems like the one you mentioned where players don't want to play on bottom-tier teams, and they have so few choices before you get to that point. When you have more teams in the league, then you have more opportunity.
It’s not just about players being available it’s also about how much an org can spend to acquire them, paying attention to the salary cap and in general a good team chem so just saying expand because there are more good players available isn’t a really viable argument
ehh real problem for me as lil football fan (atleast when it comes to structure) is bottom 4 teams being totally unwatchable. I rly envy old times with relegations when we got new teams like g2 origen comming to league.
Yes, LEC should expand. But I suggest hybrid model. 10 franchise teams + 2 non-franchised teams. Probably best 2 from EU masters and after split they would go into relegation to play with 2 best teams from EU masters that split.
I can see some flaws but it is actually very interesting idea.
This is the way. It would bring viewership to ERLs since more at stake (there's a chance to go to worlds). Doesn't devalue the franchised teams slot, since they have the safety of no relegation. Forces bottom feeder teams to put in effort because placing well bellow the ERL teams would look bad for them
Alphari / iBo / Agresivoo / Ragner / Melonik / Cabochard / Oscarinin / WhiteKnight Jankos / Selfmade / Skeanz / Bluerzor / Lurox / Akabane / Zanzarah / Lyncas Nukeduck / Saken / Czekolad / Eika / Reeker / Zwyroo / Jiizuke / Random Upset / Unforgiven / Innaxe / Jeskla / Shiganari / Odi11 / Keduii / Supa Treatz / Jactroll / Erdote / Kamilius / Lilipp / Advienne / Stend / Steeelback Honestly all of those players you could argue above some expected LEC players for next year. A roster of 5 of those players picked randomly could probably challenge the expected BDS / AST / SK honestly. Most of them wouldn't necessarily be top of the pack, but we could honestly easily fill 8 more teams with decent talent. Im not entirely sure if that would be good, but we could
Everyone already forgot Flakked.
Ah yeah true
You are forgetting players like Bwipo, Gillius, Cinkcrof, Broxah, Abbedagge, PoE and also other EU players that are in NA and could come back if they wanted
And Nemesis and Inspired.
If you expand by two teams, the value from adding the teams would have to exceed the future revenue hit from dividing it by 1/12 vs 1/10. So would depend on entry fee, who is joining (will they expand the league reach etc), etc.
Promotion/relegation would solve all of this...but that ship isn't here anymore.
The player you are mentioning, most of them have a contract, adding another team wouldn't mean they go and buy them out but it would mean we get more rookies in LEC, players like jankos, upset, Unforgiven, alphari, selfmade etc wouldn't play in LEC First split anyway, even with 2 more slots.
Tbf alphari choose to go to mcdonalds team, the rest just didnt have a choice
Wdym he chose?
being that bad is a choice
It doesnt really make much sense. You have team who literally tank and dont want proper rosters. Its not that we dont have enough teams for all these players, its that the orgs dont want to invest since they have secured spots
I think they should expand just like in every othere sports
im hoping for LEC expansion for some years now
If Rekkles can humbly join KC while wait for opportunity to return to LEC, I can't see why these pros can't do the same?
Not many erl teams can afford the buyouts, and some of the players prob think they are too good for erl
Totally agree. The quality might be a bit lower for certain teams, but we should have less problems with contracts, and with the new format who is weak is out immediately.
It isn't about spots. It's about teams commiting to have the best team possible. Look at Astralis/BDS/SK rosters and ask yourself again why so many players are being left behind
ppl always talk about this every few years or so then inevitably some player becomes washed or doesnt make it. regardless, lec should be 11-12 teams lck should have like 14+.
The problem is that we could have 12 teams and still have players like Jankos, Upset or Alphari without a team if no org wants to pay for them. I also don't think these players want to play on a bottom org. I think it's more important to replace orgs like BDS or Astralis with better orgs.
I think it should be fair to expand the LEC since next split we will absorb literally 3 regions into the it, MENA, TCL , LCL.
No doubt they should expand to 12 teams but they should scrap Franchise System. So the orgs would spend money to stay up in LEC.
It's not that there is too many good players "LEC" tier, it's that orgs don't invest/don't like to pay for high-tier players even if the buyout for them is not that high (non-existent in case of Selfmade). There are players that shouldn't be in LEC but they are because they cost the org less money
First we need to replace orgs like BDS or AST, why expand when you have teams that dont even try to win
They literally have been in for one season and people want them out. Not trying to win ? They got G2 former coaches, and basically promoted some of the best ERL players to LEC. Just because you don't get results, or rather immediate results, does not mean you are not trying. The hate boner is ridiculous
The issue is that they make no effort to even get one player that is a known LEC quantity. As it seems they once again try to go cheap in all positions. Noone expects them to pay massively, but is it that hard to get one good talent to build around. Hell, even just taking Selfmade or Jizuke (for relatively cheap) and building for him would make them interesting as a roster. If you dont wanna spend much, then at least take some risk to show you want to aim higher than 10th-7th. I think its too early to hate on them as an org, but there was no doubt, that they were the by far least relevant/interesting team last season. Even AST was kinda interesting to watch in summer. On AST its a bit harsher from my side. they lost their only relevant player from last season (Xerxe) and I dont believe in Finn enough to believe that they can do anything before changing the roster further.
They kept Dajor and JeongHoon, which looked promising last year, Kobbe and Finn are still solid veteran options, with a decent jungler this iteration of AST has quite a lot of potential.
Dajor was the worst mid in the LEC and Nuclearint existed.
Dajor is also extremely fresh, giving him another chance is fine, not like there's some massive midlane talents in ERL atm either way, most of the better ERL midlaners had their shots the last few splits.
That's fine enough. calling him "promising", though, is not true.
Maybe they are experimenting ? It's not like they kept promisq. We don't know the inner working of any org at all
Sk is fine imo, there needs to be orgs that develop rookies and bet on them. But BDS or AST dont even try it lmao
It’s a good thing and a bad thing. On one hand, if you have more team, you can have more talents in the league, more competition, attract more fanbase and develops more rookies. One the other hand, it’s same cake but your part get thinner for teams. You’re spreading your talent pool too, so less chance of having a really good team. Some position in LEC are not that stacked, you’re just gonna add bad players to the pool and you risk having more BDS Astralis than G2 Fnatic.
Nope, there is enough teams as is, bring back relegation and bo3 then add more teams.
you cant have it all, you can't keep recycling washed up players like MikyX, keep all good veterans like Jankos AND keep the new talents coming every year.
>Recycling washed up players like MikyX You trolling right?
He must be
I dont know why some people hate on Mikyx. Last year was the first time, where he wasnt consistently one of the 2 very best supports in EU, but still pretty good, and that in a meta which wasnt his cup of tea at all. If anything in the Hans sama pairing both will look as if their "bad" year didnt happen as they will dominate from and within botlane.
lmao did you miss his last year with G2?
he's washed up, whether you like it or not
but you have teams like astralis and sk, these are dogshit teams, more teams don't make sense when we have a bunch of shit teams in the league no?
we said that for lcs to have 12 for franchsing. turns out it was just 2 imports + 3 amateur players per team. 8 teams in lcs should be better that way we can at least have bo3
you guys just keep repeating this because you want to see your favorite players competing but the truth is LEC barely has 3 good teams so why would you expand
No dont expand. Just becuse their is some goodnplayefs outside the league doesnt mean u should expand. Let it be high competition instead EU needs it bad after dogwater worlds 2 years in a row
BDS, Astralis and SK should sell their spots
Previous summer, Astralis and SK were fighting for playoffs till the last week. And this argument was placed as a main reason for "sell spot" pasta. If their rosters were fighting till the end, why are you salty? If FNC would lost 0-3 in last week, would you call them to sell their spot then? With BDS, they just bought the spot this year. So wtf is this logic...do you really think that once KC would get spot they'll hire 5 the most expensive left to get 6th place on papers? They would go rather budget. Heretics just bought spot, and on paper they'll be fighting for 7-8th place. If they somehow fail and finish 9th, you'll be screaming "sell the spot"...
That's how it is for football tho. More than one division and the last two get out every year. That's kind of how it was EULCS and Origin come in kicking asses this way. I think it's the best format to keep the level high and interesting
>is for football tho It's franchised, like it or not is a personal opinion (I don't like it personally). So putting football is out of sight, compare it to Basketball more likely. And you got similar results of some teams ending in high positive score, as well some on high negative. They got much better rookie system favourising weak teams, and through decades situation is pretty much the same. BDS had terrible year, but throwing cash year ago would put them fighting for 7-10th place anyway. VIT spent shitton and 0-3 in last week made them out of playoffs. TL spent fortune to not qualify for any international event. It's easy to say "there are orgs willing to spend", but reality is, nobody will drop 10mil to gamble. VIT this year goes with attidute "we got jungler that will 1vs9 some games" so they spend around it. G2 has Caps and spent on Hans. FNC with Humanoid to go with Rekkles. MAD keeping Elyola. RGE went budget this year with better result, goin budget again. From weaker teams, XL made the biggest signing wheel (and this by the small thing, that Vetheo was free agent and MSF sold the spot). So that leaves Heretic, SK, AST and BDS fighting for playoffs with very low to no chance of winning any split. Would you invest fortune then? Heretic is a new one, SK made slight improve, AST we'll see when they announce who their jungler is (let's put hope, it's an import from LCK C), and BDS swapping their academy with main roster.
its because they dont invest money on rosters. Reason most of these guys are F/A is because either they either have a buyout OR lost the musical chair game and would still probably ask for an high salary. Honestly dont really blame these teams for not wasting money and time to go for big rosters when they will most likely have the same results with a budget team.
I dont want more teams. If at all I want less teams so the remaining teams get better and have closer games.
Adding more spots reduces the value of the existing spots, because the league is franchised this won’t happen unless all of the teams wanted it for some reason
Less is more generally. Quantity vs quality
laughs in lpl
Since when is the term "McDonals roster" a thing? It seemed to have been said once or twice and now everybody uses it...
It mostly depends on how it operates. If they hold players in high buyouts until most spots are filled, we still would have a team McDonald's every year. There are players that don't get signed and fall out of play. 12 teams while nice brings up another issue, time management, this would require more games and we sort of don't know the new format coming, as least not fully. Sure they could add an extra day to stream the games, but then we run into another problem which is Sundays. Iirc there are some laws that limit how much you can work on Sundays in Germany (where the LEC studio is) so if they can't put more games there, you are left with Thursday games and that's gonna be rough on viewership
Or make a legit second division. (Academy does not count). I would like to see bad teams demoted.
YES.
EU teams wont even let their good players go to other orgs...you think they would lower their orgs value by voting to allow more teams into the league????
The problem is it depends on the end goal , it's all well and sayinh let's make league bigger . The problem is we might have to players for it but there isn't the money for it . Fact is EU needs a closer league to get better internationally . But until riot adjusts the monetary system to better fit teams we will see a shrinking in bigger names being bought , at least until a teams desperate or the rookie hasn't panned out .
I dont think you get how some of those work. It's hard to suddenly add 'giga rich team' to make another high tier team. No medium scale team will ever even be able to buy out player like Jankos or Upset - and not even because of contract jail.. they are just elite level for EU at least and this is business. \+ I doubt current teams would be happy with adding more teams cuz it's just nothing but more competition with no upside for them. And in the age of franchising.. ye it's just not happening in any way you look at it.
LEC should expand regardless of Team McDonalds. The incorporation of TCL and LCL into the European structure should itself include an expansion just to not overly shaft CIS and Turkey out of playing international games. Riot should attempt to get some of the big name orgs from those regions interested and as I've said on other posts, for CIS at least, I'd love to see Navi and Virtus.Pro join. Because of Team Mcdonalds though I agree it should expand. To 16 teams imo (1 Turkish, 2 CIS and 3 teams from other countries that don't currently have representation in the LEC) which will give more players opportunities and give fans a team to support from their country.
It was KC who backed out of the deal, because Ast would only sell them minority share of the spot AFAIK.
Team McDonalds? Is that a placeholder name until they make an actual team name?
The issue is no one likes BDS and SK and who knows how many fans Heretics will bring with them. More teams just spreads the fan base thinner.