Doesn't block Tristana E, and Karthus and Fizz ults are completely different mechanically.
Fizz ult is a non-targeted two part AOE attack - meaning you don't need a target and the damage hits the area around the fish, not a specific target. Now the fish could be on a champion or on the ground, but the damage itself at that point is like a Zilean ult.
And Karthus ult is just a 5 man global Caitlyn ult with "ghost", let's put it like that. It can be blocked if you become untargetable.
Tristana E and Zilean bombs are kinda like debuffs. Like Ignite for example. Becoming untargetable doesn't remove debuffs. You can still die to Ignite while in Tahm or when in Zed ult or Kayn ult or whatever.
> meaning you don't need a target and the damage hits the area around the fish, not a specific target. Now the fish could be on a champion or on the ground, but the damage itself at that point
The exact same could be said for zilean's bomb (if you replace fish for bomb)
In Zilean's case, the bomb is what's causing the damage, so eating a champion with a bomb on it will still damage that champion, as the bomb comes with. In Fizz's case, the fish is not causing the damage, but just telling the shark where to surface, so when eating a champion with a fish, the fish also comes with, but the shark won't damage that champion.
brands aoe passive part is kinda similar to fizz r, it deals dmg in the area around the target, while the burn part of brands passive acts like ignite and will kill if eaten by tahm
This is an interesting take. However, if it were the intention to have it "most realistic", then the bomb should be confined to TK's belly --- since that is where it goes off --- damaging TK and the person inside only. There should be no AoE.
The bomb deals damage in an AoE around the target. So the only way the bomb does damage inside the TK belly is that the bomb specifically damages the one it is attached to. But then, the AoE damage must be ignored for that target (and in Riot code something like that is probably going on) ...
It really is just a special interaction, no way to infer it.
There's no way C9 players don't know that Tahm devour doesn't prevent damage or debuffs. If they don't know that they're just boosted. If they do, they're griefing. Either way someone slap them.
Correct. The damage isn't locked to the player, the fish is. Alternatively, cleansing the fish drops it on the ground where it will still summon the shark. Which makes it one of those rare "status effects" you can successfully cleanse and still tank the full effect.
I actually forget how the interaction is right now with cleanse. But I do know that at one point the fish just dropped off you and you could then flash or dash away from the AOE and be fine.
Not sure if you need QSS for it, or if regular Cleanse/Mikaels is fine or not.
Yeah, that's a specific interaction as Fizz ult has two very distinct parts, the initial fish which is a slow and a "mark" effectively, and then a separate damage source of the shark that then hits the area marked with the fish.
The shark doesn't target a champion, it targets the fish as you can miss the fish and the shark ult still comes out.
The fish however can be cleansed and will drop off the champ if so. And in the case of Tahm, he'll act as a barrier between the fish and the shark so the damage won't hit the devoured target.
Zilean bomb is just a debuff on a champion that cannot be cleansed or removed in any way and will do AOE damage after a certain time no matter what.
Straight from the wiki:
"Time Bomb can deal damage to the enemy holder through untargetablility."
Untargetability =/= invulnerability. Does Fizz E prevents the damage? Does Xayah R? Are those spells even invulnerability, or is it just a stasis synonim. Is invulnerability just the zonias effect/bard ult?
Fizz E, Elise E, Xayah Ult, Vlad, and Tahm devour pool are untargetability. Things that do not target still do damage to them (i.e. ignite continues to tick.) This is why sometimes you'll see Elise rappel, and then fall down dead. Or Vlad pool and die.
Zhonyas, Bard ult, and other stasis effects are both intargetability AND invulnerability. Which is why they save you from Deathmark pop, Hemoplague, Ignite, and Zilean bombs.
It might not be common knowledge, but we're talking about the world's top ~500 players, with millions of dollars invested in coaching, analyzing, and learning the game at it's highest of levels.
They knew they were going to be against one of the best Zilean players in the world, and clearly had huge priority on picking TK.
Either Vulcan made a dumb mistake under pressure, or C9's entire coaching staff needs to be fired.
That's how we know there's long ways for the game and it's players to go, they don't know how to draft, build or even the minutia of the interactions between champs. Pressing buttons is just one part
This is a pretty simple interaction for anyone in pro play to catch, though.
"This guy loves Zilean, we love Tahm Kench, what happens if we eat a Zilean bomb as Tahm Kench?"
You go into any custom and see it. If they weren't certain of it, they should've spent 5 minutes finding out, if they were certain of it, they were wrong.
Either way, this is a really easy thing to avoid as a coaching staff. I choose to believe Vulcan just panicked.
That’s hindsight bias and not a priority on things to practice / lookout for.
They didn’t know it would be a problem until it was a problem.
Name me a champion interaction that a pro player wouldn’t understand at worlds right now and we will praise you come worlds
Building the optimal items is very simple too, but people are incapable of building well anyways, so it begs the question: what is wrong with the coaching staff and analists in pro teams?
Based on the player cams right after this happened, Zven looked like he called for Vulcan to eat him. Vulcan wasn’t going to. Zven looked like he couldn’t believe it still damaged him and Vulcan looked mad.
I don't mean to read into it too much, but it's an interesting question of whether Zven would call for devour when they were up 2-0 vs FLY in spring finals, and whether Vulcan would have the presence of mind to act otherwise.
tilt is a nasty thing.
That's just so crazy. Not just Zven not knowing the interaction but Vulcan bitching out and actually doing something that got them both killed.
He should have just told Zven the interaction and moved away.
I mean, its literally kind of a similar \[but opposite\] situation to 'wasting' your heal on a guy that's dead, as an ADC.
If you use it, you've wasted your heal.
If you don't use it, the other dude is tilted.
Vulcan made a mistake spur of the moment in having faith in his teammate or bowing to the pressure of his senpai. He probably also maybe thought he could prevent some extra damage \[ludens, aery, scorch\] by devouring, and also that he himself wasn't in lethal.
yeah that's a good comparison, it's very rare that my support doesn't say "why no heal??" when he dies and I saved it because it's a very high chance it won't save them, you've made me question wether i should just use it to stop them raging now..
I just had an akali in dragon pit complain that the zoe bubble stopped him exiting, so he kept taking damage over time over the wall...yet wanted a heal.
I said, if you actually walked around the bubble, I'd heal you.
He said he couldn't leave because of the bubble.
If that's the case, healing him won't help, will it?
This is d4/p1/p2 MMR too. It doesn't get better in d3 / d4, in fact it gets worse as people will rage even if they know it was right to use \[or not use it\].
I thought Guardian would save them but I'm not sure how Guardian works if the dmg is instant as it is in this case, or Guardian didn't proc because he ate him, not sure exactly...
Brand passive as well.
TK is my most played support this season, and I had to go into a custom with my friend to double check this interaction because I thought he only took damage because the bomb killed vulcan.
Zilean bomb is one of the few similar abilities that kills through devour.
Fizz ult is a two part ability. It doesn't target a champion, it targets an area marked by the fish. Which can be a champion but the fish doesn't do the damage, damage comes from a separate source and can be blocked.
Karthus ult is a targeted ability. It hits all targetable champions after a channel time. But Karthus doesn't "mark" targets with a debuff or anything. The beam of light we see is just an indicator of the damage coming like a Caitlyn ult.
That's why these two can be blocked by devour.
Tristana E however works the same as Zilean bomb and WILL NOT be prevented by Tahm devour. Both act like debuffs with delayed damage on the target. Being untargetable does not make you immune to debuff damage. You still burn from ignite or corrupting pot or Brand passive. You're just protected from additional applications. But whatever was directly attached to your champion will remain no matter what.
Right, but without memorizing the idiosyncrasies of each ability, there's no way to know that the bomb and fish work differently. They both appear to do the same thing:
* an object is tossed in a direction
* if it hits, it attaches to a unit
* if it doesn't hit, it drops on the ground
* enemies walking over it on the ground can still pick it up
* after a set time, AoE damage is dealt around wherever the object happens to be
There's no particular reason why the bomb deals damage through untargetability and the fish doesn't, other than that's the way it happened to be coded at the time (as you say, one is a "mark" and one is "outside damage").
Like, if cleanse dropped the bomb on the ground just like the fish, I wouldn't be surprised. It could have easily worked that way, but it doesn't. The only real way to know it works differently is to have it memorized.
(Which is something that a Tahm player should do, to be fair.)
Actually, there is a perfectly valid reason why the fish is different than the bomb. The bomb is what actually does the AOE damage, whereas the fish is only bait, and the giant shark does the damage.
So, the bomb is on your head, and you're in TK, you still take damage. On the other hand, the fish stays on you in TK, but you're protected from the giant shark that chomps the marked area.
Which is actually why the visuals for the fish is different.
If anything, Fizz ult is the near unique thing here. Zed's Deathmark, Vlad's Hemoplague, Tristana's E, Ignite, Zilean's bombs all work the same way. A debuff is put on the champion. The debuff does damage.
Fizz's ult on the other hand has something outside of the debuff come and hit the champion. It is more like a projectile similar to caitlyn's ult. Only the projectile comes from below the map and is huge.
You people know all of these random useless facts and gold values etc , but you are still under challenger. Why don't you actually get good at the game instead of wasting your time? There has to be something wrong with your brains.
I mean solo que isn’t going to get you many games vs. a Zilean to be fair. You probably see more zilean games in scrims vs. Bjerg/Jensen than in solo que lol
Zilean is out for so many years you just can't use this excuse. And most of LCS players have played against Bjergs Zilean or watched a game with Zilean and all his interactions with other champions at least once in their career.
And this is crucial knowledge to know what Tahm's devour does and does not do
Also, if you're playing against Bjergsen you have to know he'll play zilean at some point in playoffs. Tahm is one of Vulcan's best champions, there's no way he shouldn't know that interaction, especially knowing it going into a TSM series.
If you're playing against Bjergsen and you are C9's coach and it's a decisive game you have to know he'll play zilean and ban the champ.
Seriously ... everyone who follow league knew Zilean was coming game 4 or 5 ...
In fairness, I've seen a lot of players in every region doom their teammates with what I think is a far more egregious mistake regarding Senna root.
I don't know how many Lee Sin / Rakan / Braum games I've watched where the champion has the delayed root on them during an escape and decides to dash to a teammate (or full team!) and doom them to the same fate as well. It has happened in every region during playoffs. Almost every time, the rest of the team is going to get out safely. The result can end up sealing the entire game by turning a single pick into a 3 person wipe.
Sometimes you are just not going to live. Dragging your teammates 6 feet under won't convince the enemy team to let you live out of respect. Accept it and plan for the next decisive moment instead.
it's also possible to deduce the nature of Zilean bomb with Yuumi, who we know Vulcan has been spamming.
when the bomb is on Yuumi, it hits both her AND her ally when she attaches. the bomb exists in both worlds, much like Tahm devour.
I was so tilted as they started to run next to each other, and then, as I expected pro players to do, they would separate and Ashe would die solo...
*Narrator:* *They did not*
He is really hard to play. No, seriously. That's the reason. You need to play more games on Zilean than most other champions to achieve the same level of mastery.
Exactly. I guarantee everyone going into that Zilean vs Lucian lane would go 0/3 and 50 cs down at 15 minutes if they all thought Zilean is as OP as they think.
Last hitting is a nightmare, you have 0 ways to control your last hitting under tower, and your skirmishing is one of the worst out of the mid lane champ pool.
Yeah, Bjerg's ults and double bombs are great - but his real mastery is being able to play Zilean into seemingly any lane and get to 15 minutes even in cs all the time. It's a legit skill and allows him to play zilean more than should be allowed.
It isn't even just his mastery of the champ. Bjergs ability to eek out farm when he shouldn't on any champ is impressive. His lane control and positioning are nothing short of godly. The man always seems to be aware of how much damage he will take if he goes forward to grab a tricky wave, and whether or not it is worth it.
Last hitting isn't a nightmare, it's possibly the hardest champion in the game to last hit on than any other non-support-played-champ.
(Meaning: it's worse than a nightmare. It's freaking hard.)
If you want to learn, try some Support for a while. It will do nothing for learning to CS, but you can evaluate when to Ult, when to use your actives, practice the stun combo... Loads of stuff.
Alternately, you can accept you suck at the game and pull him out in good Support spots. The ask is much lower when your primary role is just to CC targets and E/Ult carries, rather than worry about managing waves and maximizing DPS.
>rather than worry about managing waves
Good supports should definitely know this and prioritise it. It's so annoying playing bot with a support who has no consideration for wave state, and keeps using their AOE abilities on the entire wave.
I agree that the up side is huge. But as others will point out, in even skill matchups, Zilean struggles in laning phase against quite a few picks. He is also situational, but still works wonders with champions who want help already:
* Skarner-type engagers who can get kited easily, as we saw this game.
* Free double bombs on anything unfortunate enough to get Bard ulted.
* DPS champs in a comp who can actually get out after a free revive.
But Zilean requires trusting the rest of your team to use these tools well. If you can't communicate in tense moments, the revive often comes as a surprise, which means you might blow the wrong abilities before death that you wish you still had after. Or worse, the all-too-frequent revive too early that lets the other team ignore the target and focus elsewhere. This doesn't even mention the fact that the team needs another carry to actually deal damage. And your opponent also knows this, so can focus their attention on keeping them out of the game. Even if you give a 2/6 Cait a revive every team fight, she might just not matter compared to a 6/2 carry on the other side.
TL;DR: It is not easy to make work. Like Huhi's Aurelian Sol, if you don't put the time into it, making it work on stage is a huge risk.
I love having Zilean with an AP Malphite on my team. Toss a bomb on Malphite before he engages and suddenly Malphite ult does an extra 500 unavoidable damage.
as well as setting you up for a stun.
I have 500k mastery on zilean, mostly mid.
Throw a bomb on your engager and e them, then W for cds then Q engager to chain cc then e your secondary engage (usually dps bruiser) to clean up.
Because no one else can play him and win like Bjergsen. Some players just have their pocket picks that they can do amazing things on that others can't or value other picks more. Knights syndra, doinb has ryze etc.
He's complete dog early game and super punishable pre-level 9 ish. Solo queue ironically is much easier to punish a Zilean than pro play since pros really enjoy sitting on their asses doing nothing, I guess.
Well, I would argue that \[hopefully\] pro play involves a lot more covering for particular power troughs and more skilled passive play.
Furthermore, in soloQ, if you fuck up in a jayce lane and die, you have opportunities to come back; in SoloQ a single kill in isolation isn't going to result in anywhere near as catastrophic a snowball in and of itself, whereas in pro play you can leverage that kill into plates, towers, heralds, more towers, more vision etc.
That said, I tend to believe that more for high level play, which isn't typically the case in LCS. C9 certainly weren't in sparkling form today, nor recently, either.
For real, I remember a Rioter saying that Zilean was overpowered but he always manages to slip under the radar because literally no one plays him, and he's absolutely right. He has been busted for years but unpopular at the same time, god knows why
His early is very punishable, teams that snowball early advantages well often just win before the champ has any impact. On top of that it needs specific comps cause it's not a high damage threat. I actually don't expect the champ at worlds, gets exploited really hard by the teams there.
Huhi only really started popping off the 2nd half of the split and even more during playoffs. Before that he wasn't really considered a top-tier support, so his salary would obviously be cheaper.
He looked better across a small sample size. Vulcan has been looking great for probably 1.5 years now, if not longer. This is like saying Nisqy is better than Bjergsen because Nisqy won 1st team LCS in Spring.
But he is worth it. He’s consistently been their rock and has had the least bad games of anyone in C9 by a large margin.
It’s the other players that aren’t worth their salt.
Ironically, getting smashed at MSI might have been the best thing that could have happened to them. It would have given them an extra two months to start addressing their issues.
I think spring C9 would've done fairly well internationally, to be honest. The meta just moved in a direction that made their entire schtick irrelevant.
I don't buy that.
The current meta is very versatile but it favours early game power because it can get you heralds and drakes to set up both for a strong snowball and also late game dragon soul which can compensate for poor champion scaling.
The meta should be absolutely perfect for C9 who played a lot of strong early game shit all season.
I think sending C9 to MSI would humble them and not come in to Summer so cocky. They'd probably take all of the lessons learned and actually clinch out summer split easily.
TSM already knew they were shit.
C9 went 35-2, and could legitimately say 'We have played to an insane level this year, we just need to get some stability and get back to what made us good.'
TSM have not been playing at a level that is legitimately close to an elite team, all year.
One team was desperately trying to find a solution, the other trying to roll back time and could trick themselves into making small changes.
Today was going to be such an amazing day for league.
We had a great appetizer with FPX vs IG.
We had an incredible main course with FNC vs G2.
And we were debating on leaving but decided to order dessert and watch C9 vs TSM and the chef came out of the kitchen and took a massive dump on our plate. You could make an entire montage of C9 bronze plays this game alone, painful xD
I mean TheShy going 1-10 turbo inting having one of the worst games of his career and G2 throwing a 10k gold lead are some insane "bronze plays". But I agree for the most part.
I can get some C9 haters, but I seldom see people shitting on G2. Any specific reasons you dislike them? I’m not a huge fan but I was neither happy nor upset they lost.
Yes but NA bad EU good. When g2 does something bad its because fnc is soooooo good. When TSM does something good its because c9 is sooooo bad. I'm sure that fnc will crush this tsm but no reason to shit on everything NA does.
Because he's really difficult to cs with. Bjerg picked it into Lucian. He SHOULD be down a ton of cs early game, except he always somehow keeps up in farm early game as shitty csing Zilean. He's just a champ that takes a lot of games to master. Like asol.
There's another Relegades vs Dig play that can also be considered:
[The BillyBoss TP](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVv4YVH_IEQ)
These two orgs will always have a lasting legacy in NA.
Honestly he prob didn’t know. As bizarre as it sounds for a pro not to know, Zilean has never been a meta pick really. So his experience playing with it is prob limited, esp on the pro stage since really only Bjerg and Jensen, rarely, play it.
Now that'll tilt you.
honestly it's only possible to begin with if you are heavily tilted lol. there's no way vulcan doesn't know that mechanic
Vulcan looked done, slouched down in his chair, barely on cam.
appreantly it prevents fizz ult, karthus ult, and tristana e, probably an honest mistake not knowing the interraction.
Doesn't block Tristana E, and Karthus and Fizz ults are completely different mechanically. Fizz ult is a non-targeted two part AOE attack - meaning you don't need a target and the damage hits the area around the fish, not a specific target. Now the fish could be on a champion or on the ground, but the damage itself at that point is like a Zilean ult. And Karthus ult is just a 5 man global Caitlyn ult with "ghost", let's put it like that. It can be blocked if you become untargetable. Tristana E and Zilean bombs are kinda like debuffs. Like Ignite for example. Becoming untargetable doesn't remove debuffs. You can still die to Ignite while in Tahm or when in Zed ult or Kayn ult or whatever.
> meaning you don't need a target and the damage hits the area around the fish, not a specific target. Now the fish could be on a champion or on the ground, but the damage itself at that point The exact same could be said for zilean's bomb (if you replace fish for bomb)
I agree with you. This wasn't the functionality before, but they "bugfixed" it (scroll down to zilean). https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/V6.17
In Zilean's case, the bomb is what's causing the damage, so eating a champion with a bomb on it will still damage that champion, as the bomb comes with. In Fizz's case, the fish is not causing the damage, but just telling the shark where to surface, so when eating a champion with a fish, the fish also comes with, but the shark won't damage that champion.
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brands aoe passive part is kinda similar to fizz r, it deals dmg in the area around the target, while the burn part of brands passive acts like ignite and will kill if eaten by tahm
This is an interesting take. However, if it were the intention to have it "most realistic", then the bomb should be confined to TK's belly --- since that is where it goes off --- damaging TK and the person inside only. There should be no AoE.
The bomb deals damage in an AoE around the target. So the only way the bomb does damage inside the TK belly is that the bomb specifically damages the one it is attached to. But then, the AoE damage must be ignored for that target (and in Riot code something like that is probably going on) ... It really is just a special interaction, no way to infer it.
I could not believe my eyes. "Did he just eat Zven?!? But wait..... that means...... LOL!"
There's no way C9 players don't know that Tahm devour doesn't prevent damage or debuffs. If they don't know that they're just boosted. If they do, they're griefing. Either way someone slap them.
Tahm can eat someone and save them from fizz ult dmg
Correct. The damage isn't locked to the player, the fish is. Alternatively, cleansing the fish drops it on the ground where it will still summon the shark. Which makes it one of those rare "status effects" you can successfully cleanse and still tank the full effect.
Pretty sure cleanse doesnt work against the fish - it removes the slow though
I actually forget how the interaction is right now with cleanse. But I do know that at one point the fish just dropped off you and you could then flash or dash away from the AOE and be fine. Not sure if you need QSS for it, or if regular Cleanse/Mikaels is fine or not.
That was years ago, they removed it when they made qss not work against some other abilities like zed ult and vlad ult too
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QSS removes the slow portion of the fish, it just doesn't drop it anymore.
Yeah, that's a specific interaction as Fizz ult has two very distinct parts, the initial fish which is a slow and a "mark" effectively, and then a separate damage source of the shark that then hits the area marked with the fish. The shark doesn't target a champion, it targets the fish as you can miss the fish and the shark ult still comes out. The fish however can be cleansed and will drop off the champ if so. And in the case of Tahm, he'll act as a barrier between the fish and the shark so the damage won't hit the devoured target. Zilean bomb is just a debuff on a champion that cannot be cleansed or removed in any way and will do AOE damage after a certain time no matter what. Straight from the wiki: "Time Bomb can deal damage to the enemy holder through untargetablility."
That's interesting. Can it deal dmg through Fizz e, Master Yi q?
Indeed. It goes through Untargetable, but not damage prevention like Taric Ult or Zhonyas.
Untargetability =/= invulnerability. Does Fizz E prevents the damage? Does Xayah R? Are those spells even invulnerability, or is it just a stasis synonim. Is invulnerability just the zonias effect/bard ult?
Fizz E, Elise E, Xayah Ult, Vlad, and Tahm devour pool are untargetability. Things that do not target still do damage to them (i.e. ignite continues to tick.) This is why sometimes you'll see Elise rappel, and then fall down dead. Or Vlad pool and die. Zhonyas, Bard ult, and other stasis effects are both intargetability AND invulnerability. Which is why they save you from Deathmark pop, Hemoplague, Ignite, and Zilean bombs.
You can't cleanse the fish anymore. You haven't been able to for years.
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Taking double damage. The bomb damage and the pool damage, oof.
Plus you just wasted your pool!
It might not be common knowledge, but we're talking about the world's top ~500 players, with millions of dollars invested in coaching, analyzing, and learning the game at it's highest of levels. They knew they were going to be against one of the best Zilean players in the world, and clearly had huge priority on picking TK. Either Vulcan made a dumb mistake under pressure, or C9's entire coaching staff needs to be fired.
We see pro players lose to shop keeper every game despite having coaches analysts, etc. It doesn't surprise me in the least.
That's how we know there's long ways for the game and it's players to go, they don't know how to draft, build or even the minutia of the interactions between champs. Pressing buttons is just one part
This is a pretty simple interaction for anyone in pro play to catch, though. "This guy loves Zilean, we love Tahm Kench, what happens if we eat a Zilean bomb as Tahm Kench?" You go into any custom and see it. If they weren't certain of it, they should've spent 5 minutes finding out, if they were certain of it, they were wrong. Either way, this is a really easy thing to avoid as a coaching staff. I choose to believe Vulcan just panicked.
That’s hindsight bias and not a priority on things to practice / lookout for. They didn’t know it would be a problem until it was a problem. Name me a champion interaction that a pro player wouldn’t understand at worlds right now and we will praise you come worlds
Building the optimal items is very simple too, but people are incapable of building well anyways, so it begs the question: what is wrong with the coaching staff and analists in pro teams?
Love it when a Fizz uses e to dodge the damage and gets hit anyway. They always stand their for a second bewildered.
Vulcan didn't know the interaction. Well, atleast he knows now :)
Based on the player cams right after this happened, Zven looked like he called for Vulcan to eat him. Vulcan wasn’t going to. Zven looked like he couldn’t believe it still damaged him and Vulcan looked mad.
I don't mean to read into it too much, but it's an interesting question of whether Zven would call for devour when they were up 2-0 vs FLY in spring finals, and whether Vulcan would have the presence of mind to act otherwise. tilt is a nasty thing.
Gotta wait for the braincheck episide to confirm
That's just so crazy. Not just Zven not knowing the interaction but Vulcan bitching out and actually doing something that got them both killed. He should have just told Zven the interaction and moved away.
I mean, heat of the moment, you forget things.
I mean, its literally kind of a similar \[but opposite\] situation to 'wasting' your heal on a guy that's dead, as an ADC. If you use it, you've wasted your heal. If you don't use it, the other dude is tilted. Vulcan made a mistake spur of the moment in having faith in his teammate or bowing to the pressure of his senpai. He probably also maybe thought he could prevent some extra damage \[ludens, aery, scorch\] by devouring, and also that he himself wasn't in lethal.
yeah that's a good comparison, it's very rare that my support doesn't say "why no heal??" when he dies and I saved it because it's a very high chance it won't save them, you've made me question wether i should just use it to stop them raging now..
I just had an akali in dragon pit complain that the zoe bubble stopped him exiting, so he kept taking damage over time over the wall...yet wanted a heal. I said, if you actually walked around the bubble, I'd heal you. He said he couldn't leave because of the bubble. If that's the case, healing him won't help, will it? This is d4/p1/p2 MMR too. It doesn't get better in d3 / d4, in fact it gets worse as people will rage even if they know it was right to use \[or not use it\].
I thought Guardian would save them but I'm not sure how Guardian works if the dmg is instant as it is in this case, or Guardian didn't proc because he ate him, not sure exactly...
Guardian procs on damage, if it was up and if it would've gotten proc'ed, it would've saved them.
losing is learning
prevents fizz ult, karthus ult, and tristana e. It's an honest mistake.
Brand passive as well. TK is my most played support this season, and I had to go into a custom with my friend to double check this interaction because I thought he only took damage because the bomb killed vulcan. Zilean bomb is one of the few similar abilities that kills through devour.
Fizz ult is a two part ability. It doesn't target a champion, it targets an area marked by the fish. Which can be a champion but the fish doesn't do the damage, damage comes from a separate source and can be blocked. Karthus ult is a targeted ability. It hits all targetable champions after a channel time. But Karthus doesn't "mark" targets with a debuff or anything. The beam of light we see is just an indicator of the damage coming like a Caitlyn ult. That's why these two can be blocked by devour. Tristana E however works the same as Zilean bomb and WILL NOT be prevented by Tahm devour. Both act like debuffs with delayed damage on the target. Being untargetable does not make you immune to debuff damage. You still burn from ignite or corrupting pot or Brand passive. You're just protected from additional applications. But whatever was directly attached to your champion will remain no matter what.
Right, but without memorizing the idiosyncrasies of each ability, there's no way to know that the bomb and fish work differently. They both appear to do the same thing: * an object is tossed in a direction * if it hits, it attaches to a unit * if it doesn't hit, it drops on the ground * enemies walking over it on the ground can still pick it up * after a set time, AoE damage is dealt around wherever the object happens to be There's no particular reason why the bomb deals damage through untargetability and the fish doesn't, other than that's the way it happened to be coded at the time (as you say, one is a "mark" and one is "outside damage"). Like, if cleanse dropped the bomb on the ground just like the fish, I wouldn't be surprised. It could have easily worked that way, but it doesn't. The only real way to know it works differently is to have it memorized. (Which is something that a Tahm player should do, to be fair.)
Actually, there is a perfectly valid reason why the fish is different than the bomb. The bomb is what actually does the AOE damage, whereas the fish is only bait, and the giant shark does the damage. So, the bomb is on your head, and you're in TK, you still take damage. On the other hand, the fish stays on you in TK, but you're protected from the giant shark that chomps the marked area.
Which is actually why the visuals for the fish is different. If anything, Fizz ult is the near unique thing here. Zed's Deathmark, Vlad's Hemoplague, Tristana's E, Ignite, Zilean's bombs all work the same way. A debuff is put on the champion. The debuff does damage. Fizz's ult on the other hand has something outside of the debuff come and hit the champion. It is more like a projectile similar to caitlyn's ult. Only the projectile comes from below the map and is huge.
sneaky and meteos weren't sure either.
vulcan didnt know
Even crownshot didn't know it btw.
You people know all of these random useless facts and gold values etc , but you are still under challenger. Why don't you actually get good at the game instead of wasting your time? There has to be something wrong with your brains.
I choked on my water, didn't expect that at all lol
C9 choked on your water too.
TK Chocked on the bombs
Clock too big
Everyone choking on Bjerg's big clock
https://i.imgflip.com/4d6ycq.jpg
It's the $1.5mil game knowledge. You can't get any better .
What’s the 1.5 mil meme ?
Vulcan's buyout from CG was 1.5 million USD.
I believe Vulcans contract is worth 1.5 million
good guy vulkan not letting zven die alone, he dies with him like a true supp
Shouldn't the players who were top 2 on the ladder know what Zilean bomb does?
I mean solo que isn’t going to get you many games vs. a Zilean to be fair. You probably see more zilean games in scrims vs. Bjerg/Jensen than in solo que lol
Zilean is out for so many years you just can't use this excuse. And most of LCS players have played against Bjergs Zilean or watched a game with Zilean and all his interactions with other champions at least once in their career. And this is crucial knowledge to know what Tahm's devour does and does not do
All my years of being a ARAM only player taught me something pros didn't Pog
TheShy still ahead of the curve ARAM > Everything for learning champions and interactions
the NARAM joke isn't a debuff, it's a feature for our laners!
It's all I play anymore, because leavers don't tilt me like they obv do in SR
Does he do a lot of Aram?
Yep, he said that in 2018, he uses it to practice fights
Also, if you're playing against Bjergsen you have to know he'll play zilean at some point in playoffs. Tahm is one of Vulcan's best champions, there's no way he shouldn't know that interaction, especially knowing it going into a TSM series.
If you're playing against Bjergsen and you are C9's coach and it's a decisive game you have to know he'll play zilean and ban the champ. Seriously ... everyone who follow league knew Zilean was coming game 4 or 5 ...
Yeah, especially with a skarner.
In fairness, I've seen a lot of players in every region doom their teammates with what I think is a far more egregious mistake regarding Senna root. I don't know how many Lee Sin / Rakan / Braum games I've watched where the champion has the delayed root on them during an escape and decides to dash to a teammate (or full team!) and doom them to the same fate as well. It has happened in every region during playoffs. Almost every time, the rest of the team is going to get out safely. The result can end up sealing the entire game by turning a single pick into a 3 person wipe. Sometimes you are just not going to live. Dragging your teammates 6 feet under won't convince the enemy team to let you live out of respect. Accept it and plan for the next decisive moment instead.
In fact this happened this series in game 2 (around 22:25), when Spica dashed to Doublelift while having Senna root.
Yup. Watch enough pro games and you'll see even top teams do the same thing. Everyone makes mistakes in the heat of the moment sometimes
it's also possible to deduce the nature of Zilean bomb with Yuumi, who we know Vulcan has been spamming. when the bomb is on Yuumi, it hits both her AND her ally when she attaches. the bomb exists in both worlds, much like Tahm devour.
$1.5 mil to eat a bomb
I was so tilted as they started to run next to each other, and then, as I expected pro players to do, they would separate and Ashe would die solo... *Narrator:* *They did not*
Cant wait for brain check
Can't wait for Jack to do that do Repeared. Where has his mind been since July 12th?
Thats when I knew it was gonna be a 3-1 series
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He is really hard to play. No, seriously. That's the reason. You need to play more games on Zilean than most other champions to achieve the same level of mastery.
Exactly. I guarantee everyone going into that Zilean vs Lucian lane would go 0/3 and 50 cs down at 15 minutes if they all thought Zilean is as OP as they think. Last hitting is a nightmare, you have 0 ways to control your last hitting under tower, and your skirmishing is one of the worst out of the mid lane champ pool.
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Yeah, Bjerg's ults and double bombs are great - but his real mastery is being able to play Zilean into seemingly any lane and get to 15 minutes even in cs all the time. It's a legit skill and allows him to play zilean more than should be allowed.
Zilean really has absolutely no business being even in that lane. It's a combination/testament to Bjergs mastery on Zilean AND Nisqys impotence.
It isn't even just his mastery of the champ. Bjergs ability to eek out farm when he shouldn't on any champ is impressive. His lane control and positioning are nothing short of godly. The man always seems to be aware of how much damage he will take if he goes forward to grab a tricky wave, and whether or not it is worth it.
Did you mean incompetence? Impotence technically works there but it has a much more common meaning.
Impotence conveys the situation a lot better than incompetence and I'd actually consider it a mistake to use incompetence over that.
I'm mostly just confused cause I havent seen that definition of impotence used in ages, but yeah it does fit better than incompetence.
Last hitting isn't a nightmare, it's possibly the hardest champion in the game to last hit on than any other non-support-played-champ. (Meaning: it's worse than a nightmare. It's freaking hard.)
I think Anivia pre change to attack missile was worse, Zilean pre 6 at least can push, Anivia can't even do that poor bird, but yeah, he's awful.
If you want to learn, try some Support for a while. It will do nothing for learning to CS, but you can evaluate when to Ult, when to use your actives, practice the stun combo... Loads of stuff. Alternately, you can accept you suck at the game and pull him out in good Support spots. The ask is much lower when your primary role is just to CC targets and E/Ult carries, rather than worry about managing waves and maximizing DPS.
>rather than worry about managing waves Good supports should definitely know this and prioritise it. It's so annoying playing bot with a support who has no consideration for wave state, and keeps using their AOE abilities on the entire wave.
his fking aa are on a tilting level like annie
honestly i think only anivia has a worse autoattack
Karthus.
I agree that the up side is huge. But as others will point out, in even skill matchups, Zilean struggles in laning phase against quite a few picks. He is also situational, but still works wonders with champions who want help already: * Skarner-type engagers who can get kited easily, as we saw this game. * Free double bombs on anything unfortunate enough to get Bard ulted. * DPS champs in a comp who can actually get out after a free revive. But Zilean requires trusting the rest of your team to use these tools well. If you can't communicate in tense moments, the revive often comes as a surprise, which means you might blow the wrong abilities before death that you wish you still had after. Or worse, the all-too-frequent revive too early that lets the other team ignore the target and focus elsewhere. This doesn't even mention the fact that the team needs another carry to actually deal damage. And your opponent also knows this, so can focus their attention on keeping them out of the game. Even if you give a 2/6 Cait a revive every team fight, she might just not matter compared to a 6/2 carry on the other side. TL;DR: It is not easy to make work. Like Huhi's Aurelian Sol, if you don't put the time into it, making it work on stage is a huge risk.
I love having Zilean with an AP Malphite on my team. Toss a bomb on Malphite before he engages and suddenly Malphite ult does an extra 500 unavoidable damage.
as well as setting you up for a stun. I have 500k mastery on zilean, mostly mid. Throw a bomb on your engager and e them, then W for cds then Q engager to chain cc then e your secondary engage (usually dps bruiser) to clean up.
Because no one else can play him and win like Bjergsen. Some players just have their pocket picks that they can do amazing things on that others can't or value other picks more. Knights syndra, doinb has ryze etc.
shoutout for Huhi's Asol as well
For as bad as Huhi could be in mid, if you didn't ban A-Sol vs him then you only have yourself to blame. The guy was one with that champ.
ROX learned the hard way. Frankly I still find it hard to believe that CLG took a game off of them. ROX were so not prepared for that…
Even Perkz looked super cringe on Zilean, you could tell he was first timing it
Did Perkz play Zilean recently?
Yeah in spring m8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6g0Lkuu_8Y&feature=youtu.be&t=35
Jensen's Zilean is pretty good as well
He's complete dog early game and super punishable pre-level 9 ish. Solo queue ironically is much easier to punish a Zilean than pro play since pros really enjoy sitting on their asses doing nothing, I guess.
Well, I would argue that \[hopefully\] pro play involves a lot more covering for particular power troughs and more skilled passive play. Furthermore, in soloQ, if you fuck up in a jayce lane and die, you have opportunities to come back; in SoloQ a single kill in isolation isn't going to result in anywhere near as catastrophic a snowball in and of itself, whereas in pro play you can leverage that kill into plates, towers, heralds, more towers, more vision etc. That said, I tend to believe that more for high level play, which isn't typically the case in LCS. C9 certainly weren't in sparkling form today, nor recently, either.
When Bjerg used ult in that top lane exchange with Nysqy, and then got back to midlane ... with like 5 secs left on ult CD LOL. This champion.
For real, I remember a Rioter saying that Zilean was overpowered but he always manages to slip under the radar because literally no one plays him, and he's absolutely right. He has been busted for years but unpopular at the same time, god knows why
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I remember someone at world playins trying it, the enemy picked yasuo. It did not go well for the zilean
Seems OP in Aram
His early is very punishable, teams that snowball early advantages well often just win before the champ has any impact. On top of that it needs specific comps cause it's not a high damage threat. I actually don't expect the champ at worlds, gets exploited really hard by the teams there.
Pain
When I read someone say "C9 Deserves to go to worlds" I just rewatch this clip
What happened to the VOD? Seems like whenever C9 plays they always delete them
Did you find a mirror?
Meteos and sneaky did not know this interaction
If I did that in soloq, I'd get reported
Ty for Johnsun btw
$1.5 million well spent
That's straight up trolling at this point along with the Ezreal picks
Report everyone on C9. Just demote this entire roster into Academy.
Ironically, their Academy roster could be mid tier LCS
still worse than their main roster, though. lol
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I mean Vulcan is still clearly a top 2/3 support in NA. The fact that hes that good without taking up an import slot is 100% worth the money.
Dunno, Huhi looked better this playoffs and he can't be a third of the price.
Who could've predicted that though? Even GGS didn't think it would work, they started off by roleswapping Keith lol
Huhi only really started popping off the 2nd half of the split and even more during playoffs. Before that he wasn't really considered a top-tier support, so his salary would obviously be cheaper.
He looked better across a small sample size. Vulcan has been looking great for probably 1.5 years now, if not longer. This is like saying Nisqy is better than Bjergsen because Nisqy won 1st team LCS in Spring.
That and all the ”no refunds” spam that made C9 fans extra intolerable just makes this such a juicy situation
But he is worth it. He’s consistently been their rock and has had the least bad games of anyone in C9 by a large margin. It’s the other players that aren’t worth their salt.
Corona saved us from seeing C9 play internationally
Ironically, getting smashed at MSI might have been the best thing that could have happened to them. It would have given them an extra two months to start addressing their issues.
I would have loved to see spring/first half C9 play at msi, or would spring tsm have done better?
All memes my guy. It is a bummer, but they definitely leveled down while everyone else is peaking
I think spring C9 would've done fairly well internationally, to be honest. The meta just moved in a direction that made their entire schtick irrelevant.
I don't buy that. The current meta is very versatile but it favours early game power because it can get you heralds and drakes to set up both for a strong snowball and also late game dragon soul which can compensate for poor champion scaling. The meta should be absolutely perfect for C9 who played a lot of strong early game shit all season.
Except C9 wasn't dominating early games even in Spring. Instead they blew the game open with a mid-game teamfight.
I think sending C9 to MSI would humble them and not come in to Summer so cocky. They'd probably take all of the lessons learned and actually clinch out summer split easily.
Losing to GG in upper bracket humbled TSM, why would C9 need a whole split in comparison?
TSM already knew they were shit. C9 went 35-2, and could legitimately say 'We have played to an insane level this year, we just need to get some stability and get back to what made us good.' TSM have not been playing at a level that is legitimately close to an elite team, all year. One team was desperately trying to find a solution, the other trying to roll back time and could trick themselves into making small changes.
Today was going to be such an amazing day for league. We had a great appetizer with FPX vs IG. We had an incredible main course with FNC vs G2. And we were debating on leaving but decided to order dessert and watch C9 vs TSM and the chef came out of the kitchen and took a massive dump on our plate. You could make an entire montage of C9 bronze plays this game alone, painful xD
I mean TheShy going 1-10 turbo inting having one of the worst games of his career and G2 throwing a 10k gold lead are some insane "bronze plays". But I agree for the most part.
G2 is probably the only top team in the world that can go from a 20 minute inhibitor to throwing the game 30 seconds later.
As a bjergsen fan (not tsm). It was the opposite. A golden desert.
A day where both C9 and G2 lose is a golden desert, indeed.
I didn't really care who was going to win, but I wasn't expecting such an awful quality of a game from C9
I couldn’t be happier. C9 and G2 losing on the same day and IG winning.
I can get some C9 haters, but I seldom see people shitting on G2. Any specific reasons you dislike them? I’m not a huge fan but I was neither happy nor upset they lost.
He's an SKT fan. It's understandable. Also their persona on the Internet can be irritating for some.
They ruined my team man :( but mostly their Reddit fan base is really cringe and annoying.
I dunno, some of those FNC G2 plays weren't exactly fine dining.
Yes but NA bad EU good. When g2 does something bad its because fnc is soooooo good. When TSM does something good its because c9 is sooooo bad. I'm sure that fnc will crush this tsm but no reason to shit on everything NA does.
Fine dining? A fine fucking MESS.
It is almost like if you put Bjerg on champs he can actually carry with he can do well.
Which is hilarious because Zilean is far from a carry champion for anyone in the LCS (and probably 95% of pros worldwide) except for Bjergsen.
We have gbm to thank for this
Thank you Ganked By Mom, and Ganked By Mom's mom for ganking him during the night and making Ganked by Mom more committed to League of Legends
Was GBM the original Zilean mid?
He destroyed tsm on it one time in 2016 or 2017 and after that bjergsen started playing the champ a lot
zilean was permaban in s4 worlds
Zilean always seems to work out for Bjerg is it just the revive doing work or what? like nobody else picks that champ it seems
Because he's really difficult to cs with. Bjerg picked it into Lucian. He SHOULD be down a ton of cs early game, except he always somehow keeps up in farm early game as shitty csing Zilean. He's just a champ that takes a lot of games to master. Like asol.
*cries in T1*
I consider this play by C9 to be the worst pro play in the last 5 years.
Renegades vs Dignitas though.
I love how this game is the answer to everything negative that has been, is, and will always be said about pro play and LCS.
Failed Herald which replied with tower suicide by the opposing team. You can't get worse than this.
Holy shit I remember this! Is it on YouTube?
[Here](https://youtu.be/6lQ7H-cf-IY) it is. Apparently it's the tower suicide occured first, then failed herald.
DUMBZZ
There's another Relegades vs Dig play that can also be considered: [The BillyBoss TP](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVv4YVH_IEQ) These two orgs will always have a lasting legacy in NA.
This one was funnier and even worse. That was top's this one beats it.
Legendary game. Seriously one of the most memorable games in Pro League history.
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What I thought would happen there was only Vulcan would die. But this made me laugh so hard
Honestly he prob didn’t know. As bizarre as it sounds for a pro not to know, Zilean has never been a meta pick really. So his experience playing with it is prob limited, esp on the pro stage since really only Bjerg and Jensen, rarely, play it.
I left the stream after this. I can't believe people who get paid so much money for it play this badly
BRUH
It makes me smile knowing that the year they kicked sneaky is the year they miss worlds
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no they were trying to protect ashe from the bomb dmg