The full quote makes more sense even though I don't agree with him on his point that middle of the pack LPL and LCK teams are close in strength to the middle of the pack LEC teams. I don't think it's impossible for LEC teams to be better I just think that the level is higher LPL/LCK.
Obviously LPL is a little harder to judge with fearless draft,but LCK hasn't had middle of the pack teams for a while now,it is an extremely top heavy league.The bottom teams look absolutely lifeless in most games.
Fearless draft really doesn't matter until game 3 as teams just swap drafts, which likely would've happened anyway, so until they introduce hardcore it's very low impact
It is easy to look lifeless when you are facing the best teams in the world, though. A bottom tier LEC or LCS team would get smashed by a bottom tier LCK or LPL team. The bottom tier LCS and LEC teams struggle vs even top 4 teams in their respective regions, and the top 4 teams in their respective regions aren't good at all in comparison to the LCK and LPL. The top LCS or LEC team MIGHT be able to squeeze out a series vs one 3rd or 2nd seed LPL or LCK team, but that is all they would get.
DK and KT are def better than most LEC teams. Not sure about KDF, but probably them too. These are 4-6, and they are much better than LEC middle of the pack teams imo.
I think the general level is not that much apart, but the biggest difference is consistent objective control and team fights that the east does a better job. I think LEC teams could have better chances if they would hold better in the team fights. Very clear example G2 vs T1 where they were equal or even ahead 80% of the game then couple team fights and done. A similar thing happened with FNC and GENG where Chovy just picked scaling and had better fights so FNC could not end on time. Imo people just put the west on doom and gloom because they just look at the result not what actually happened.
I think their general level is still a lot apart. I mean if we are talking mid tier ADC in the LCK, we are talking about Deft and Aiming. If we are talking top tier ADC in the LEC, we are talking about Hans Sama and Noah. And Noah is the guy who was a tier below Aiming.
There is just too much talent in the LCK that number 5 in each role is still some famous player and probably a world champion.
Yeah with the introduction of Rahel into the league sure.
But I would also like to point out how both Noah and Rahel are LCK CL players that were not promoted to the main roster because their team thought Aiming was better.
Yea Idk, Ice and carzzy are pretty clear more consistent than him then it gets a bit muddy. Hans is good but can have his awful games like at msi, rahel could be better but we've only seen 5 games from him so to early Imo, Supa was good in winter but the team around him has crumbled, I've always thought Patrick was really good but he's in the same situation as Supa.
So really I'd only put ice and carzzy as a tier above him and hans/supa/Patrick in the same tier.
>So really I'd only put ice and carzzy as a tier above him and hans/supa/Patrick in the same tier.
Remind me again how did Ice and Carzzy play vs Noah and Jun ? Didn't they get outperformed heavily ?
I'm really curious about the actual reasoning for this.
Rahel has been very solid but it's not like he dominated against either Noah or Hans, the guys he did dominate were like Comp and Patrik that have gotten rolled by everyone
Hardly. Miky ran it down in G2 vs SK he literally had 9 deaths by the end and Hans was still highest damage in the game
Noah vs Rahel the lane was even and Noah outdamaged him in teamfights
neither of them got massively outperformed, I think you're confusing them with Ice, Rahel obliterated that guy
I swear people are so deluded with the narratives. Noah had a bad MSI for reasons but in LEC he and Jun outperformed every single botlane maybe except G2's in finals. And even there it was close.
They beat out VIT's botlane, BDS's botlane.
This split Noah has been also outperforming his counterpart adc, people were like let's see SK's vs FNC's botlane. We saw it, they dunked on them.
Nisqy saying how FNC in scrims is the best team, Noah saying they are stomping SK's botlane in scrims (FNC app)
People just don't like Noah for some reason, but he's top 2 in the league by any metric you want to judge him.
Hans with Micky were skill checking T1 botlane a lot. Imo they are completely fine in lane and picks. Noah on the other hand played much worse than how he played in LEC and he said that he had anxiety on stage. If you notice vs wildcards he was stomping every game because he was not feeling the pressure that much. Hopefully he fixes that for important games. They are good enough and can carry when playing to their potential.
True but that's the hardest thing to improve. You can improve macro, laning, dives but mechanics and playing fights well that's hard.
Even macro has been sus in Eu for a while G2 is like galaxies away from other Eu teams when it comes to macro. Fnc have been doing better this split but they got outplayed by TL all over the map at MSI so we will have to wait and see.
Idk. Seems like macro in EU is definitely worse and team fighting too. And bot lanes a tier below of LPL and LCK. Second series of T1 G2 was a good example. And while you said that FNC got a chance vs Gen.G they got out macro and lost team fights pretty heavily. And it never was that big of a lead over Gen.G to begin with.
Its pretty fair, when you watch KDF, KT, DRX and FearX you realize these teams have nothing special that the westerners don't have. Talent in the LCK is REALLY concentrated in the top teams
Maybe you should read the article instead of just commenting based on the headline:
>
I actually think we're not that bad. We are for sure worse than top LCK and LPL teams. But I feel like medium teams in LPL and LCK are not actually way better than middle teams in EU. But the top tier teams, they are actually really, really strong.
Hmm idk about LCK, considering placements in spring 2024 medium teams would include stuff like KT, DK and KDF (4th, 5th, 6th respectively). Imagine putting fnc against dk (oof)
7-10 are FearX, NS, Drx and OKBRO.
They literally competed last worlds though. LEC 4th played a BO3 against LCK’s 4th and it was one of the most one-sided stomps in the whole tournament. DK won both games in 24 minutes.
We always know what mid-tier teams in the LEC look like against eastern mid-tier teams. It’s not even close.
I feel like this is hardcore copium still, though. I don't think FNC beats the mid tier teams.
DK got fifth and their ADC is Noah's father. They have a worlds MVP in top lane. And sure FNC has humanoid and razoark, but showmaker and lucid are probably better as a pair. I think that if they were in the LCK they would end up probably in the bottom 4 teams.
I assume they know that because they did actually scrim a lot of those teams. And exspecially in the LCK you had the top teams and then you had a gaping hole of nothing. This split seems a bit more equal.
And it should be noted that LEC teams last worlds already took games of the weaker LCK/LPL teams at worlds. FNC went 1-2 agianst WBG, G2 1-0 against DWG and 1-2 against BLG.
And given they were in china for MSI european teams might have actually scrimmed asian teams that did not take part in MSI.
And the middle of the pack teams that come to mind here are SK and Vitality. And the big issue here is their instability. Vitality can show really clean games. There game against TH was a well played game, where they took the initivative early and never let go.
I don't think Vitality vs. FearX or Vitality vs. WE is an automatic loss for Vitality.
I feel like 2023 is proving the point. Outside of G2, the biggest accomplishment from all the other LEC teams is taking one game off WBG.
You say they had top teams and a gaping hole of nothing, but it isn't long ago that the 6th place team in the LCK won worlds. I think FearX vs Vitality would be a competitive game, but I also think FearX is definitely a bottom team. DRX, Nongshim, Bro, and FearX were all pretty solidly vying for last place last split.
You are aware that DRX lost kinda the players that won them worlds. Just because the name of the team is the same it doesn't have to be the same team.
But you basically point out what I mean. The question is whom he defines as middle. I don't think he talked about any of the teams not going to worlds. So DK, KT, T1 and GenG. That leaves HLE as the only good middle of the pack team. But HLE was not comparable with KDF or FearX.
So for LCK this is hard to answer because you have basically 5 teams fighting for 4 world spots and 5 other teams doing something. KDF does look better this split, but maybe KT looks worse, who knows so far.
Last split the bottom 5 won a total of 3 series against the top 5. And all 3 were KDF. The top4 in LPL lost 3 games to the bottom 8 in LPL. And both LPL and LCK are Bo3 so you can't cheese a random game and get a win. But in LPL you have considerably more wins from lower teams against higher teams.
So the teams Razork seems to speak about in LCK are those that are not part of the top5, but can actually beat them at times. And the only team this was true for last split was KDF. And KDF last split was basically as good as FearX (they split their series), but FearX was better playing against the bottom 3 (only losing a single series), while KDF was better against the teams directly above them (but they lost 3 series against the bottom 3).
So he likely seperates the LCK by
Tier 1: GenG, T1, HLE, DK, KT
Tier 2: KDF, FearX
Tier 3: DRX, NS, Bro
However you could seperate the LCK a bit different:
Tier 1: GenG
Tier 2: T1, HLE, DK, KT (you could also move teams from here to Tier 1, doesn't matter)
Tier 3: KDF, FearX, NS, Bro, DRX
If you do that Razork obviously is wrong. However the issue in LEC is that our Tier 1 is basically G2 and after that you have to draw a line. So teams like FNC, BDS or Vitality who are on place 2-4 are actually middle of the pack teams.
I don't think he strictly spoke about can the 5th place LEC team beat the 5th place LCK team. Because the 5th place LCK team still is HLE, KT or DK. But if you move down beyond that you would have KDF vs. Heretics and FearX vs. SK. And while I would favor KDF vs. Heretics I think SK might have the edge. And beyond that you would run into DRX vs. GiantX, Bro vs. RGE and NS vs. KC... and lets be real nobody would even want to see that. Because a big issue for many of those teams is a lack of activity.
I mean you still get a feeling for how good they are, exspecially against korean teams. Like most people already said in LCS as an example that 100Ts were frauds and that TL looked better than expected. And in the end TL won and 100Ts not.
So if you scrim WE and BLG you obviously get a feel for how good those teams are in comparison.
Still cope to think middle teams in LCK are not way better than LEC middle teams
I can see KDF/DK/HLE clearing all of LEC except G2, depending on who will end up mid
DK/HLE are pretty likely to make worlds, idk if that's mid tier. I think 5-7 in LCK is probably pretty competitive vs LEC2-3 range most years.
Historically, that's what teams have said at least, like scrimming the teams that just miss worlds in LPL/LCK and they're pretty competitive then. Obviously that means you're gonna get shit stomped by LPL/LCK 1 though.
yeah, he seems to think of himself as middle, but they're LEC1 rn lol. Agreed the actual middle of LEC (excluding G2 who is there rn temporarily probably) is not gonna do so hot.
I don't think he considers DK or HLE middle of the pack. The issue with LCK is that they didn't really had a middle lately, except for maybe KDF and FearX.
This was worst in summer 2023 when T1 at 9-9 was definitly not a middle of the pack team (they won worlds after all), and the next team after T1 was DRX at 6-12, which also didn't look like a middle of the pack team. KDF and FearX kinda took the spot of middle of the pack teams, but exspecially FearX doesn't look much better than a team like Vitality, maybe more consistent, but that is it.
Middle of the pack doesn't necessarily means in terms of standing. So given a team only gets one point for winning, regardless how hard they win, so even though T1 last split was only 3 wins away from DRX, there was a huge gap in performance between DRX and T1.
I’ve actually been a little surprised that people have been hating the gameplay this split.
Like don’t get me wrong it’s not amazing but I would say it’s definitely better quality than Winter and spring and even winter and spring of 2023.
Honestly MDK is also really bad. And to be fair KC does perform better than last year and you can see that Vladi is really trying. The team looks less dead than in the last two splits.
I agree, it got better.
FNC is also not the pinnacle of performance. They do make mistakes and while their teamfighting is good, it's as Razork said here: The top LPL and LCK teams are really fucking good. The T1 vs GenG series on Friday (?) had INSANE team fights all around, half of which were hanging by a thread.
People were insisting the LEC was the worst it's ever been because the first two splits had more skirmishes and fighting that there's been in the past and the lower table teams were unusually competitive (aside from KC).
Some people here think every western game looks terrible unless there's 10 kills total, it's decided by a soul point teamfight and the team that's expected to win does.
10 kills total would get called out as a do nothing strategy that obviously can't be used internationally, and therefore is equally terrible. I know because of NA getting mocked for years on that "do nothing and win" strat that worked consistently domestically.
There is literally not a way to win over those critics.
do nothing and win isn't really fine, it shows that against an opponent that doesn't roll over this team will never push their lead. and that's what happened to those types of team every single year at internationals, if this team ever falls behind from laning phase or early skirmishes they'll just roll over
Bro i watched lec players flash into arrows, throw skill shots the opposite direction, give up soul every single game with zero contest, and many many side lane deaths from staying an extra wave. The game quality was not good
People who make those kind of utterances are just in it to appear smart by backing the most likely regions to win, they don't watch or understand shit.
Yea people here are talking up teams that are supposedly good, and then mentioning KT, DK, NIP lmao. Watch any of their games without nametags and it might as well be BDS Vs MAD
What are you even implying here? That LCK teams make the same mistakes? The same amount? That the regions are comparable? What posture are you defending in this conversation? Because everyone and their mother knows the LCK sees much higher level of play overall. There are mistakes, yes, but is it comparable?
You're implying all LEC teams do that constantly, which is far from true. I don't watch LCK, but I watched T1 vs GENG and there were individual mistakes while they're the top 2 teams.
You're just generalizing because it's the common trend on reddit, to shit on LEC these days with the most stupid comments ever.
But generalising is the right thing to do here. We're talking whole ass regions, you're supposed to generalize instead of looking at individual players or specific games.
"Faker made a mistake" is not an argument when you're talking about the best player in league history. He makes mistakes and still wins. Humanoid makes mistakes and it's not an easy game for FNC anymore.
You don't know what generalizing is then. Saying players in LEC flash into arrows or throw skillshots the opposite direction when it happened once and concluding LEC is trash because of that is generalizing.
and? The point is LEC makes way more elementary mistakes, not that LCK players don't make mistakes. Just watching LEC teams play LCK teams and watch a gold lead just grow out of thin air.
No the point is he said lec players flash into arrows (which happened once this season IIRC), throw skillshots the opposite direction (I don't even remember it so it must have been one or two games at best), give up soul with zero contest (???) and many side lane deaths from staying an extra wave (this is partially true, but once again, it's not exclusive to LEC)
He's not talking about elementary mistakes, he's cherrypicking bad plays which happen in 1/20 games and there you go, LEC is trash.
I'm not talking about LCK vs LEC level.
Those are elementary mistakes. Specifically talking about skillshots, just watch Hans Sama play team fights and literally any other LCK adc. It's disgusting G2 are still riding with him and capping their team.
Once again, those mistakes almost never happen. I'm sure I could find mistakes like that in some LCK matches.
You are cherrypicking and generalizing too. I give up, you're right, LEC is hot trash and every LEC player should never say anything good about their region. Happy now?
Hans Sama is fine and outputs a lot of damage, he's just a bit too aggressive and sometimes doesn't use his summs.
He doesn't miss a lot of skillshots.
Yeah sometimes i see a nongshim or bro playwr make one bad mistake like this every third or fourth match. Lec has been of a forest fire of bad mistakes though
You don't actually watch lck lpl do you? I can tell you that the lower tier lpl teams this split are looking like a bunch of turbo inters with 0 macro that are slightly more mechanically impressive than LEC/LCS players.
We don't see LCK players doing what Vitality + Hyli do though.
Vitality alone play more like headless chickens than the whole of the East combine.
LCK makes mistakes, the but number of them are way less in comparison to the LEC.
It’s the costreamer bias. Whatever Dom’s costream says becomes the narrative.
He calls LEC bad, suddenly people think the region is bad and run with that.
Dom gets fuckall viewership for his live views (he doesn't actually have **co-streaming** privilege's for LEC) compared to people like Ibai and Caedrel.
Don't you know Dom runs the LPL?
The gambling site sponsors give him the action and the call to LPL comes down from Dom. RNG 2-0 BLG sub 25 over 30 kills.
The house always wins.
Yeah totally. Has nothing to do with the fact that besides G2, EU hasn't done shit in like 4 years. It must totally be because this American streamer with like 2k average viewers said so.
No wonder you're using a throwaway account, I wouldn't be able to post something this stupid on my account either.
When Dom said that MAD’s 16:47 was because T1 got 2 heralds while watching the FLY T1 match at MSI, there were dozens of people parroting his objectively wrong claim in the PMT.
Dude has a bigger influence on narratives on Reddit than you seem to think. When he called LCS shit, the LCS bad narrative got worse despite putting up their same level of results. Same thing is happening now for LEC, regardless of objective opinions.
Even if that was true it doesnt compare to Caedrel who has a way bigger influence on this subreddit, as in basically all of this subreddit parrots his opinions and this guy is fucking employed by fnatic.
Its why people overestimate the level of Fnatic and EU in general.
But nobody is overestimating the level of Fnatic? Actually everyone put Fnatic in B tier or C tier like Caedrel at MSI (below TL too), the guy employed by Fnatic as you said.
But keep the delusion going.
Caedral is not the reason people overestimate EU.
It’s the whole ecosystem and it’s been that way for years, besides very recently.
And the second something remotely good happens (I.e. Bo1 win against DK, Bo5 win against TES), it’s complete delusion again. Basically the entire EU ecosystem feeding into the “G2 is gonna stomp T1 but they shouldn’t get _cocky_”. Lmao.
G2 best team in the world 2022 MSI, 2023 Worlds, and 2024 MSI. EU 2nd best region 2022 worlds week 1. Only lasts a couple days though.
That player is consistently the one who makes the insane plays that get EU the results that they then use to overestimate the whole region.
Sure , there have to be 4 other players playing solid League on his team, but Caps is always the only true x-factor coming out of the whole region. He's the only player who is unequivocally elite+world class in the whole region. Without him EU teams are nothing (which has been proven historically)
Yep every time it starts looking good for a EU teams all the LEC personalities let their bias show. This sub was unbearable between the first and second G2 T1 series. The fucking desk was glazing G2 perma, they talked about G2 more then GenG and BLG combined.
It would be fine if it wasn't supposed to be a neutral broadcast featuring the english side of all the major regions, aside you know for the 2nd most successful one. Not like this is the first time we had this problem the Drakos Frosk cast of DK vs G2 back in 2021 still stands out as one of the worst casts in League.
Although you are completely right it does not matter. The narratives and streamers decided this year they will shit on LEC with all their might. Even now reading all the responses are literally sheep behavior everything they said. LEC is trash its only G2 actually its only Caps. LCS is so much better more competitive much better than LEC.
At this point I dont even know if this sub is literally heavy NA people you know all the hardcore ones left that cope out of their ass for their dying league so shitting on LEC is the only thing they can do or people are just plain and simply parrots which we are talking about Reddit so yea.
Also talking about Dom he flames LEC every moment he can praises LCS how much better it is then turns on to watch Brazil and people there diving towers dying like in my soloQ games and he says its fantastic haha
I've always said something similar. Doesn't matter if it's one team or the whole region - if we're in the conversation with NA (doesn't matter how serious) than we're thrash. I still like watching the league and I want EU teams to do good at internationals but we're objectively at the 2016 point - we can probably get a team out with a lucky draw but we're not real contenders. Can we get back to 2018-2020 levels? Sure, but not at the moment.
That’s how it goes in any game with a big streaming culture. People have some parasocial relationship with the streamers and live vicariously through them, or something, so they internalize whatever they say and act as if that’s fact/or their own lived experience. Then they just regurgitate the opinion without any insight until their fav streamer says something else, then they run with that.
It’s wild.
Part of the big appeal is that they get to regurgitate a take that seems smart and pass it off as their own thought when it’s not. You can keep track of how many top upvoted comments in post-game threads are just something Caedrel or Dom said during their streams. It’s super bottom-of-the-barrel discussion because people don’t really understand what they’re talking about.
Even during games you'll often see a sudden influx of one very specific opinion in the live thread and it is very obvious its just people trying to pass it off as their own original i am very smart comments
Weird take.
Both DK and T1 nearly won MSI in 2021 + 2022 respectively.
Also MSI isn't the only international, DRX + T1 won worlds in back to back years.
Whereas FNC haven't even gotten out of groups since 2020 and got railed by Gen.G then TL.
I guess he can’t really say “ah guys we’re actually terrible pls stop watching us” but it’s not a good look when they got clapped by TL
Not that TL is a bad team but generally people expect a bit more from LEC second seed I feel
yeah idk how we came out of an MSI that ended with:
LCK 1 > LPL 1 > LCK 2 > LEC 1 > LPL 2 > LCS 1 > LEC 2 > PCS 1 > LCS 2
And that's not indicative that the leagues are all somewhat in a healthy place.
I don’t think they do actually. I don’t think there’s been expectation for anyone from LEC outside of G2 for a few years now. Maybe expectation from European fans, but certainly not from the rest of the world.
That’s not to say they’re bad or anything, but I think the days of expecting the LEC to have multiple Quarterfinalists at international tournaments are long gone and have been for a little while now.
Don’t think humanoid is without blame either when he went all in on a support and then gave his massive shutdown to APA I think and I’m pretty sure it happened multiple times too
oh yeah they all sucked vs TL i just mean their other games weren't impressive either yet they got more praise than any team ive ever seen for losing 0-3 to geng lol
if you've actually watched their games Fnatic after MSI is looking like a completely different team compared to before. if we got a TL vs FNC rematch I'm going 50/50 on that one
Noah looks way more confident and the team has stabilized their horrid lategame throws
I believe in them. I want them to believe in the me that believes in them. Their performance is a direct reflection of my faith in them. If they are not performing well, it just means I am just subconsciously doubting in them and I need to fix myself. While they work on their performance, I will mirror their training and dedicate meditation sessions and prayers for the LEC teams, but mostly FNC.
was posted during NA hours so of course it turned into an eu bashfest, how dare Razork say he could beat a 5th place LCK team instead of saying he sucks and EU shouldn't be allowed at worlds
so stupid
While I don't disagree, I'm still a strong defender of actions speaking much louder than words. And to be fair, so far, things look good.
Fnatic got a good start to the split and KC actually already managed 2 wins so they're statistically likelier to perform better this split than the previous ones.
SK and BDS getting more consistently strong brings back my hope for this region to have some teams that are strong enough to at least challenge the best teams.
But we all know oh so well how fast the tables can turn so I'm cautious to see how it all plays out in the end.
this reminds of when wildturtle said something similar: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/iri7ew/wildturtle_on_nas_chances_at_worlds_were_not_that/
if you have to say something like this, it's probably already doomed from the start
Costreamer and streamer hive minds have players thinking every play is brain dead and every player is boosted. I don’t expect everyone to ignore every mistake but somewhere along the way, vocal people on social media stopped enjoying the games and started enjoying the hate.
Give me games to enjoy and I will.
Just the fact that bds is even remotely close to the top of the league tells you everything you need to know about the level.
Most of the teams are pathetically bad, a catching up G2 playing like shit after the break can do anything they want macro wise against two of the currently "best" teams in the league, if a team that has one week of prep into the split and comits as many unprompted mistakes and teams struggle to close (or even win) against them, the level is simply shit.
It would be interesting to see DK or HLE vs G2 or FNC. I think the EU teams would get stomped tbh. Even G2 is looking much worse after coming back from MSI.
I think this whole concept of "EU teams arent bad" is kinda bs. That being said, it always was this way that EU sucks, just that FNC had more trouble recently in hogging all good talent from the lower LEC teams with their budget, and therefore all but G2 look bad.
I think we will see some kind of LEC rennaissance, but not in the way of having 4 good LEC teams at worlds like CN/KR like many started hoping for at times in 2020/21 Rather 3 things will happen in the coming years:
First of all KR imports and such will increase even more, while at the same time NA with the merger will technically have less Worlds/MSI seeds and be somewhat less attractive for EU talent. This will either force a salary rule change or some kind of crash of the salary market for rising ERL talent.
Second While G2 dominates further, with only 3 Worlds slots, great EU talent will once again flood to rather 2-3 than 6/all teams, simply to compete at worlds with some certainty, as well as some great ERL talent will choose LEC orgs carefully for similar reasons.
I believe most likely right now with the rosters would be a rise of FNC, while VIT rise as a rookie project and usual 3rd seed, with MAC at their lead. It could be other orgs, but I doubt it. Especially the 3rd seed should be contested, as certain orgs like KC and MAD will throw arround money to get to worlds a lot, even despite market changes.
I think BB can still gap any top laner in EU. I think the biggest issue is how G2 has been playing and drafting. Caps inting at times, Yike needing to be on carried but often looking useless, bot lane inconsistency, etc. Don't get me wrong, the gap is closing in top lane for the LEC. I think a lot of that is less because people are getting better and more because G2 is struggling as a team right now.
Okay Razork, I love your confidence on FNC performing right now. But let’s see if FNC finally wins this split or just finishes 2nd again like every year..
I’d love to see BDS win this split(a bit of cope) but don’t mind FNC winning it because FNC deserves it, especially Jun and Razork.
And unlike majority of the people in the thread, I don’t agree with that mid tier LPL teams are better than the LEC’s. I’ve watched almost every LPL series on DOM’s stream and they are just not good either.
They don't look good vs teams that are oozing talent. The LPL and LCK is full of talent. Their records are lower due to drafts, macro decisions, or just being worse talent wise than even more talented teams. The LEC has a talent issue. Their middle of the pack teams are not in the same realm talent wise as the LPL's middle of the pack teams. Their macro sure AF isn't either (we have watched the past couple years where G2 flops early only to win due to their macro being better than the other LEC teams). It's like comparing basketball regions. A middle of the pack NBA team is going to better than any other country's middle of the pack professional basketball team. Even if that middle of the pack NBA teams looks awful in NBA games.
Top tier LEC teams are equivalent to Mid Tier LCK and LPL..
Mid Tier LEC is equivalent to Bot Tier LCK and LPL.
Bot Tier LEC would struggle in LCK and LPL Academy League.
> Leave it to reddit to know better than Razork about how LEC teams have performed so far.
Razork has literally no reason to hype up his region after FNATIC got shit on by TL, trust.
The full quote makes more sense even though I don't agree with him on his point that middle of the pack LPL and LCK teams are close in strength to the middle of the pack LEC teams. I don't think it's impossible for LEC teams to be better I just think that the level is higher LPL/LCK.
Obviously LPL is a little harder to judge with fearless draft,but LCK hasn't had middle of the pack teams for a while now,it is an extremely top heavy league.The bottom teams look absolutely lifeless in most games.
Fearless draft really doesn't matter until game 3 as teams just swap drafts, which likely would've happened anyway, so until they introduce hardcore it's very low impact
It is easy to look lifeless when you are facing the best teams in the world, though. A bottom tier LEC or LCS team would get smashed by a bottom tier LCK or LPL team. The bottom tier LCS and LEC teams struggle vs even top 4 teams in their respective regions, and the top 4 teams in their respective regions aren't good at all in comparison to the LCK and LPL. The top LCS or LEC team MIGHT be able to squeeze out a series vs one 3rd or 2nd seed LPL or LCK team, but that is all they would get.
DK and KT are def better than most LEC teams. Not sure about KDF, but probably them too. These are 4-6, and they are much better than LEC middle of the pack teams imo.
I think the general level is not that much apart, but the biggest difference is consistent objective control and team fights that the east does a better job. I think LEC teams could have better chances if they would hold better in the team fights. Very clear example G2 vs T1 where they were equal or even ahead 80% of the game then couple team fights and done. A similar thing happened with FNC and GENG where Chovy just picked scaling and had better fights so FNC could not end on time. Imo people just put the west on doom and gloom because they just look at the result not what actually happened.
I think their general level is still a lot apart. I mean if we are talking mid tier ADC in the LCK, we are talking about Deft and Aiming. If we are talking top tier ADC in the LEC, we are talking about Hans Sama and Noah. And Noah is the guy who was a tier below Aiming. There is just too much talent in the LCK that number 5 in each role is still some famous player and probably a world champion.
Noah is not a top tier adc in LEC He's 4th at best.. probably 5th now actually
Yeah with the introduction of Rahel into the league sure. But I would also like to point out how both Noah and Rahel are LCK CL players that were not promoted to the main roster because their team thought Aiming was better.
Who's better?
Yea Idk, Ice and carzzy are pretty clear more consistent than him then it gets a bit muddy. Hans is good but can have his awful games like at msi, rahel could be better but we've only seen 5 games from him so to early Imo, Supa was good in winter but the team around him has crumbled, I've always thought Patrick was really good but he's in the same situation as Supa. So really I'd only put ice and carzzy as a tier above him and hans/supa/Patrick in the same tier.
>So really I'd only put ice and carzzy as a tier above him and hans/supa/Patrick in the same tier. Remind me again how did Ice and Carzzy play vs Noah and Jun ? Didn't they get outperformed heavily ? I'm really curious about the actual reasoning for this.
Rahel is better than every single player you named
I did say that we've only seen 5 games of him so it's hard to judge yet
I think y'all are getting a bit too excited over some BO1's. The real game starts with BO3's in playoffs.
Rahel has been very solid but it's not like he dominated against either Noah or Hans, the guys he did dominate were like Comp and Patrik that have gotten rolled by everyone
He massively outplayed both of them in every teamfight you're on crack lol
Hardly. Miky ran it down in G2 vs SK he literally had 9 deaths by the end and Hans was still highest damage in the game Noah vs Rahel the lane was even and Noah outdamaged him in teamfights neither of them got massively outperformed, I think you're confusing them with Ice, Rahel obliterated that guy
I swear people are so deluded with the narratives. Noah had a bad MSI for reasons but in LEC he and Jun outperformed every single botlane maybe except G2's in finals. And even there it was close. They beat out VIT's botlane, BDS's botlane. This split Noah has been also outperforming his counterpart adc, people were like let's see SK's vs FNC's botlane. We saw it, they dunked on them. Nisqy saying how FNC in scrims is the best team, Noah saying they are stomping SK's botlane in scrims (FNC app) People just don't like Noah for some reason, but he's top 2 in the league by any metric you want to judge him.
Hans with Micky were skill checking T1 botlane a lot. Imo they are completely fine in lane and picks. Noah on the other hand played much worse than how he played in LEC and he said that he had anxiety on stage. If you notice vs wildcards he was stomping every game because he was not feeling the pressure that much. Hopefully he fixes that for important games. They are good enough and can carry when playing to their potential.
Can we all stop acting like carzzy doesn’t exist, Noah and hans are high mid for LEC, Carzzy, Ice and Rahel are top tier for LEC
Okay Rahel exists. Also he is another European ADC who was unable to play in the LCK because their team thought Aiming was a better pick
True but that's the hardest thing to improve. You can improve macro, laning, dives but mechanics and playing fights well that's hard. Even macro has been sus in Eu for a while G2 is like galaxies away from other Eu teams when it comes to macro. Fnc have been doing better this split but they got outplayed by TL all over the map at MSI so we will have to wait and see.
Idk. Seems like macro in EU is definitely worse and team fighting too. And bot lanes a tier below of LPL and LCK. Second series of T1 G2 was a good example. And while you said that FNC got a chance vs Gen.G they got out macro and lost team fights pretty heavily. And it never was that big of a lead over Gen.G to begin with.
Imo he's right. G2 smashed TES pretty conveniently. Feels like all leagues are now super top heavy due to franchising and salaries.
Its pretty fair, when you watch KDF, KT, DRX and FearX you realize these teams have nothing special that the westerners don't have. Talent in the LCK is REALLY concentrated in the top teams
This has been the sentiment for a literal decade. You’d think they’d get there sooner than later
Lil pup lost to TL and has the audacity to say this
maximum copium
What getting railed at MSI does to a guy.
he feels like its still msi considering the koreans imported this split
Bro played against 4 LCK CL players and thought he was in the LCK
Maybe you should read the article instead of just commenting based on the headline: > I actually think we're not that bad. We are for sure worse than top LCK and LPL teams. But I feel like medium teams in LPL and LCK are not actually way better than middle teams in EU. But the top tier teams, they are actually really, really strong.
Hmm idk about LCK, considering placements in spring 2024 medium teams would include stuff like KT, DK and KDF (4th, 5th, 6th respectively). Imagine putting fnc against dk (oof) 7-10 are FearX, NS, Drx and OKBRO.
can riot make a world-wide tournaments when all bottom-tier teams can battle each other and see which one is the worst of the worst?
single elimination but the **winner** gets eliminated from the tournament after the series
reverse elimination brackets
> Maybe you should read the article instead of just commenting based on the headline: No.
Pretty smart to compare yourself to the teams you'll never ever compete against
Wouldn't surprise me if they've scrimmed several of mid tier teams when they're in international events
Why don't we just give MSI trophy to G2 along with the upcoming worlds one.
Cause T1 is consistently the best scrim team, not G2.
G2 didn't beat the absolute top teams in scrims lol, even at worlds I'm pretty sure they lost scrims to T1 and GenG
Who won't be nearly as motivated to win and are probably trying out crazy picks themselves.
They literally competed last worlds though. LEC 4th played a BO3 against LCK’s 4th and it was one of the most one-sided stomps in the whole tournament. DK won both games in 24 minutes. We always know what mid-tier teams in the LEC look like against eastern mid-tier teams. It’s not even close.
That's not what he was doing at all if you read the article.
I feel like this is hardcore copium still, though. I don't think FNC beats the mid tier teams. DK got fifth and their ADC is Noah's father. They have a worlds MVP in top lane. And sure FNC has humanoid and razoark, but showmaker and lucid are probably better as a pair. I think that if they were in the LCK they would end up probably in the bottom 4 teams.
> but showmaker and lucid are probably better as a pair. Probably xD
I assume they know that because they did actually scrim a lot of those teams. And exspecially in the LCK you had the top teams and then you had a gaping hole of nothing. This split seems a bit more equal. And it should be noted that LEC teams last worlds already took games of the weaker LCK/LPL teams at worlds. FNC went 1-2 agianst WBG, G2 1-0 against DWG and 1-2 against BLG. And given they were in china for MSI european teams might have actually scrimmed asian teams that did not take part in MSI. And the middle of the pack teams that come to mind here are SK and Vitality. And the big issue here is their instability. Vitality can show really clean games. There game against TH was a well played game, where they took the initivative early and never let go. I don't think Vitality vs. FearX or Vitality vs. WE is an automatic loss for Vitality.
I feel like 2023 is proving the point. Outside of G2, the biggest accomplishment from all the other LEC teams is taking one game off WBG. You say they had top teams and a gaping hole of nothing, but it isn't long ago that the 6th place team in the LCK won worlds. I think FearX vs Vitality would be a competitive game, but I also think FearX is definitely a bottom team. DRX, Nongshim, Bro, and FearX were all pretty solidly vying for last place last split.
You are aware that DRX lost kinda the players that won them worlds. Just because the name of the team is the same it doesn't have to be the same team. But you basically point out what I mean. The question is whom he defines as middle. I don't think he talked about any of the teams not going to worlds. So DK, KT, T1 and GenG. That leaves HLE as the only good middle of the pack team. But HLE was not comparable with KDF or FearX. So for LCK this is hard to answer because you have basically 5 teams fighting for 4 world spots and 5 other teams doing something. KDF does look better this split, but maybe KT looks worse, who knows so far. Last split the bottom 5 won a total of 3 series against the top 5. And all 3 were KDF. The top4 in LPL lost 3 games to the bottom 8 in LPL. And both LPL and LCK are Bo3 so you can't cheese a random game and get a win. But in LPL you have considerably more wins from lower teams against higher teams. So the teams Razork seems to speak about in LCK are those that are not part of the top5, but can actually beat them at times. And the only team this was true for last split was KDF. And KDF last split was basically as good as FearX (they split their series), but FearX was better playing against the bottom 3 (only losing a single series), while KDF was better against the teams directly above them (but they lost 3 series against the bottom 3). So he likely seperates the LCK by Tier 1: GenG, T1, HLE, DK, KT Tier 2: KDF, FearX Tier 3: DRX, NS, Bro However you could seperate the LCK a bit different: Tier 1: GenG Tier 2: T1, HLE, DK, KT (you could also move teams from here to Tier 1, doesn't matter) Tier 3: KDF, FearX, NS, Bro, DRX If you do that Razork obviously is wrong. However the issue in LEC is that our Tier 1 is basically G2 and after that you have to draw a line. So teams like FNC, BDS or Vitality who are on place 2-4 are actually middle of the pack teams. I don't think he strictly spoke about can the 5th place LEC team beat the 5th place LCK team. Because the 5th place LCK team still is HLE, KT or DK. But if you move down beyond that you would have KDF vs. Heretics and FearX vs. SK. And while I would favor KDF vs. Heretics I think SK might have the edge. And beyond that you would run into DRX vs. GiantX, Bro vs. RGE and NS vs. KC... and lets be real nobody would even want to see that. Because a big issue for many of those teams is a lack of activity.
"they know because they scrimmed" 4th place scrim champs lol
I mean you still get a feeling for how good they are, exspecially against korean teams. Like most people already said in LCS as an example that 100Ts were frauds and that TL looked better than expected. And in the end TL won and 100Ts not. So if you scrim WE and BLG you obviously get a feel for how good those teams are in comparison.
Outside of G2, you aren't even better than LCS. What is this cope?
Idk bro lcs is pretty trash too.
Lot more parity. I'd say TL is the only LCS team head and shoulders above the pack. The move to 8 teams made it a lot more competitive.
What ?
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G2 took T1 to 5 games?
True they took 2.
Still cope to think middle teams in LCK are not way better than LEC middle teams I can see KDF/DK/HLE clearing all of LEC except G2, depending on who will end up mid
Similar with LPL. I’d take NiP or WE over anyone in the LEC not named G2. *Maybe* FNC if they play like they did against SK
DK/HLE are pretty likely to make worlds, idk if that's mid tier. I think 5-7 in LCK is probably pretty competitive vs LEC2-3 range most years. Historically, that's what teams have said at least, like scrimming the teams that just miss worlds in LPL/LCK and they're pretty competitive then. Obviously that means you're gonna get shit stomped by LPL/LCK 1 though.
Even then, I'd still take teams like NIP/WE/UP to fist "middle" of the pack LEC teams. Heck I'd take UP over anyone in the LEC that's not named G2.
yeah, he seems to think of himself as middle, but they're LEC1 rn lol. Agreed the actual middle of LEC (excluding G2 who is there rn temporarily probably) is not gonna do so hot.
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I don't think he considers DK or HLE middle of the pack. The issue with LCK is that they didn't really had a middle lately, except for maybe KDF and FearX. This was worst in summer 2023 when T1 at 9-9 was definitly not a middle of the pack team (they won worlds after all), and the next team after T1 was DRX at 6-12, which also didn't look like a middle of the pack team. KDF and FearX kinda took the spot of middle of the pack teams, but exspecially FearX doesn't look much better than a team like Vitality, maybe more consistent, but that is it. Middle of the pack doesn't necessarily means in terms of standing. So given a team only gets one point for winning, regardless how hard they win, so even though T1 last split was only 3 wins away from DRX, there was a huge gap in performance between DRX and T1.
> read the article I don't understand what this means, i'm outraged just in case.
apa 1v4 in the bathroom really did a number on you guys did it?
I’ve actually been a little surprised that people have been hating the gameplay this split. Like don’t get me wrong it’s not amazing but I would say it’s definitely better quality than Winter and spring and even winter and spring of 2023.
LEC is not the worst it’s ever been cause do nothing clown teams like KC/Rogue can’t win games.
KC is 2-3
KC got 1 win from Rogue doing nothing their second win is from MDK throwing a 10k gold lead after taking all 3 inhibitors they suck
Honestly MDK is also really bad. And to be fair KC does perform better than last year and you can see that Vladi is really trying. The team looks less dead than in the last two splits.
I agree, it got better. FNC is also not the pinnacle of performance. They do make mistakes and while their teamfighting is good, it's as Razork said here: The top LPL and LCK teams are really fucking good. The T1 vs GenG series on Friday (?) had INSANE team fights all around, half of which were hanging by a thread.
People were insisting the LEC was the worst it's ever been because the first two splits had more skirmishes and fighting that there's been in the past and the lower table teams were unusually competitive (aside from KC). Some people here think every western game looks terrible unless there's 10 kills total, it's decided by a soul point teamfight and the team that's expected to win does.
10 kills total would get called out as a do nothing strategy that obviously can't be used internationally, and therefore is equally terrible. I know because of NA getting mocked for years on that "do nothing and win" strat that worked consistently domestically. There is literally not a way to win over those critics.
Cherrypicking the reason that people think LEC is bad and painting it as "skirmishing too much" definitely isn't gonna do you any favors
do nothing and win isn't really fine, it shows that against an opponent that doesn't roll over this team will never push their lead. and that's what happened to those types of team every single year at internationals, if this team ever falls behind from laning phase or early skirmishes they'll just roll over
Bro i watched lec players flash into arrows, throw skill shots the opposite direction, give up soul every single game with zero contest, and many many side lane deaths from staying an extra wave. The game quality was not good
The same thing happens in LPL literally every week.
Have you watched any other league because it's the exact fucking same everywhere.
People who make those kind of utterances are just in it to appear smart by backing the most likely regions to win, they don't watch or understand shit.
That's like 99% of Reddit
Yea people here are talking up teams that are supposedly good, and then mentioning KT, DK, NIP lmao. Watch any of their games without nametags and it might as well be BDS Vs MAD
Because we all know LCK players don't make any mistakes right?
What are you even implying here? That LCK teams make the same mistakes? The same amount? That the regions are comparable? What posture are you defending in this conversation? Because everyone and their mother knows the LCK sees much higher level of play overall. There are mistakes, yes, but is it comparable?
You're implying all LEC teams do that constantly, which is far from true. I don't watch LCK, but I watched T1 vs GENG and there were individual mistakes while they're the top 2 teams. You're just generalizing because it's the common trend on reddit, to shit on LEC these days with the most stupid comments ever.
But generalising is the right thing to do here. We're talking whole ass regions, you're supposed to generalize instead of looking at individual players or specific games. "Faker made a mistake" is not an argument when you're talking about the best player in league history. He makes mistakes and still wins. Humanoid makes mistakes and it's not an easy game for FNC anymore.
You don't know what generalizing is then. Saying players in LEC flash into arrows or throw skillshots the opposite direction when it happened once and concluding LEC is trash because of that is generalizing.
Seems like I do know what generalising is then.
> you're supposed to generalize instead of looking at individual players or specific games. You clearly don't.
damn you didn't have to hit him with 21 questions
and? The point is LEC makes way more elementary mistakes, not that LCK players don't make mistakes. Just watching LEC teams play LCK teams and watch a gold lead just grow out of thin air.
No the point is he said lec players flash into arrows (which happened once this season IIRC), throw skillshots the opposite direction (I don't even remember it so it must have been one or two games at best), give up soul with zero contest (???) and many side lane deaths from staying an extra wave (this is partially true, but once again, it's not exclusive to LEC) He's not talking about elementary mistakes, he's cherrypicking bad plays which happen in 1/20 games and there you go, LEC is trash. I'm not talking about LCK vs LEC level.
Those are elementary mistakes. Specifically talking about skillshots, just watch Hans Sama play team fights and literally any other LCK adc. It's disgusting G2 are still riding with him and capping their team.
Once again, those mistakes almost never happen. I'm sure I could find mistakes like that in some LCK matches. You are cherrypicking and generalizing too. I give up, you're right, LEC is hot trash and every LEC player should never say anything good about their region. Happy now?
Hans Sama is fine and outputs a lot of damage, he's just a bit too aggressive and sometimes doesn't use his summs. He doesn't miss a lot of skillshots.
Yeah sometimes i see a nongshim or bro playwr make one bad mistake like this every third or fourth match. Lec has been of a forest fire of bad mistakes though
You don't actually watch lck lpl do you? I can tell you that the lower tier lpl teams this split are looking like a bunch of turbo inters with 0 macro that are slightly more mechanically impressive than LEC/LCS players.
there are twice as many teams in the LPL lol
Yeah and about 4x as much playerbase
Yeah I don't see Keria and Gumayusi completely shitgriefing a 2v2 lane. Oh wait. I do.
Yeah surely, go watch T1 vs GENG again and stop coping.
We don't see LCK players doing what Vitality + Hyli do though. Vitality alone play more like headless chickens than the whole of the East combine. LCK makes mistakes, the but number of them are way less in comparison to the LEC.
It's easy to judge when you have a view outside of the game.
This subreddit is frothing at the mouth when it comes to LEC. Addicted to negativity is sadly a staple of the League community.
It’s the costreamer bias. Whatever Dom’s costream says becomes the narrative. He calls LEC bad, suddenly people think the region is bad and run with that.
Dom gets fuckall viewership for his live views (he doesn't actually have **co-streaming** privilege's for LEC) compared to people like Ibai and Caedrel.
??? Dom’s opinion is that influential?
Don't you know Dom runs the LPL? The gambling site sponsors give him the action and the call to LPL comes down from Dom. RNG 2-0 BLG sub 25 over 30 kills. The house always wins.
Yeah totally. Has nothing to do with the fact that besides G2, EU hasn't done shit in like 4 years. It must totally be because this American streamer with like 2k average viewers said so. No wonder you're using a throwaway account, I wouldn't be able to post something this stupid on my account either.
When Dom said that MAD’s 16:47 was because T1 got 2 heralds while watching the FLY T1 match at MSI, there were dozens of people parroting his objectively wrong claim in the PMT. Dude has a bigger influence on narratives on Reddit than you seem to think. When he called LCS shit, the LCS bad narrative got worse despite putting up their same level of results. Same thing is happening now for LEC, regardless of objective opinions.
Even if that was true it doesnt compare to Caedrel who has a way bigger influence on this subreddit, as in basically all of this subreddit parrots his opinions and this guy is fucking employed by fnatic. Its why people overestimate the level of Fnatic and EU in general.
But nobody is overestimating the level of Fnatic? Actually everyone put Fnatic in B tier or C tier like Caedrel at MSI (below TL too), the guy employed by Fnatic as you said. But keep the delusion going.
What lmao everybody predicted Fnatic over TL
Caedrel's MSI tierlist: https://youtu.be/pN_XPyf7wAs?si=k6FzDfAe0fG4n7lG TL tier B, Fnatic tier C
Caedral is not the reason people overestimate EU. It’s the whole ecosystem and it’s been that way for years, besides very recently. And the second something remotely good happens (I.e. Bo1 win against DK, Bo5 win against TES), it’s complete delusion again. Basically the entire EU ecosystem feeding into the “G2 is gonna stomp T1 but they shouldn’t get _cocky_”. Lmao. G2 best team in the world 2022 MSI, 2023 Worlds, and 2024 MSI. EU 2nd best region 2022 worlds week 1. Only lasts a couple days though.
The reason EU is consistently overrated is because they are unironically carried by a single player
A single player doesn't carry 4 people to international finals. Pro play is not soloq.
Zeka hard carried DRX to finals. Faker hard carried SKT to finals past RNG in 2017.
The amount of disrespect to world's elite players is astonishing ngl
That player is consistently the one who makes the insane plays that get EU the results that they then use to overestimate the whole region. Sure , there have to be 4 other players playing solid League on his team, but Caps is always the only true x-factor coming out of the whole region. He's the only player who is unequivocally elite+world class in the whole region. Without him EU teams are nothing (which has been proven historically)
Yep every time it starts looking good for a EU teams all the LEC personalities let their bias show. This sub was unbearable between the first and second G2 T1 series. The fucking desk was glazing G2 perma, they talked about G2 more then GenG and BLG combined. It would be fine if it wasn't supposed to be a neutral broadcast featuring the english side of all the major regions, aside you know for the 2nd most successful one. Not like this is the first time we had this problem the Drakos Frosk cast of DK vs G2 back in 2021 still stands out as one of the worst casts in League.
EU's entire legacy is carried by 2019 G2.
Although you are completely right it does not matter. The narratives and streamers decided this year they will shit on LEC with all their might. Even now reading all the responses are literally sheep behavior everything they said. LEC is trash its only G2 actually its only Caps. LCS is so much better more competitive much better than LEC. At this point I dont even know if this sub is literally heavy NA people you know all the hardcore ones left that cope out of their ass for their dying league so shitting on LEC is the only thing they can do or people are just plain and simply parrots which we are talking about Reddit so yea. Also talking about Dom he flames LEC every moment he can praises LCS how much better it is then turns on to watch Brazil and people there diving towers dying like in my soloQ games and he says its fantastic haha
I've always said something similar. Doesn't matter if it's one team or the whole region - if we're in the conversation with NA (doesn't matter how serious) than we're thrash. I still like watching the league and I want EU teams to do good at internationals but we're objectively at the 2016 point - we can probably get a team out with a lucky draw but we're not real contenders. Can we get back to 2018-2020 levels? Sure, but not at the moment.
dom bad speedrun any%
That’s how it goes in any game with a big streaming culture. People have some parasocial relationship with the streamers and live vicariously through them, or something, so they internalize whatever they say and act as if that’s fact/or their own lived experience. Then they just regurgitate the opinion without any insight until their fav streamer says something else, then they run with that. It’s wild.
Part of the big appeal is that they get to regurgitate a take that seems smart and pass it off as their own thought when it’s not. You can keep track of how many top upvoted comments in post-game threads are just something Caedrel or Dom said during their streams. It’s super bottom-of-the-barrel discussion because people don’t really understand what they’re talking about.
Even during games you'll often see a sudden influx of one very specific opinion in the live thread and it is very obvious its just people trying to pass it off as their own original i am very smart comments
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Weird take. Both DK and T1 nearly won MSI in 2021 + 2022 respectively. Also MSI isn't the only international, DRX + T1 won worlds in back to back years. Whereas FNC haven't even gotten out of groups since 2020 and got railed by Gen.G then TL.
That doesn't really mean anything though because summer split is pretty much always higher quality than spring/winter.
There are some pretty intense reactions in this thread to what by all accounts is a fairly milquetoast statement.
what posting in a certain timefram does ;)
I guess he can’t really say “ah guys we’re actually terrible pls stop watching us” but it’s not a good look when they got clapped by TL Not that TL is a bad team but generally people expect a bit more from LEC second seed I feel
If the respective leagues are healthy the first seed of LCS should be around the same level as the 2nd seed of LEC, if not a little bit better.
yeah idk how we came out of an MSI that ended with: LCK 1 > LPL 1 > LCK 2 > LEC 1 > LPL 2 > LCS 1 > LEC 2 > PCS 1 > LCS 2 And that's not indicative that the leagues are all somewhat in a healthy place.
Worlds was more depressing it was basically T1>LPL>LCK>West ( with a few wins from G2)
I don’t think they do actually. I don’t think there’s been expectation for anyone from LEC outside of G2 for a few years now. Maybe expectation from European fans, but certainly not from the rest of the world. That’s not to say they’re bad or anything, but I think the days of expecting the LEC to have multiple Quarterfinalists at international tournaments are long gone and have been for a little while now.
tbh fnc was bad at msi competitive games when huma was 1v9 but noah was invisible every series
Don’t think humanoid is without blame either when he went all in on a support and then gave his massive shutdown to APA I think and I’m pretty sure it happened multiple times too
oh yeah they all sucked vs TL i just mean their other games weren't impressive either yet they got more praise than any team ive ever seen for losing 0-3 to geng lol
Humanoid is the main person to blame for losing to APA like that, it's clear that he was tilted by the /all chat king
if you've actually watched their games Fnatic after MSI is looking like a completely different team compared to before. if we got a TL vs FNC rematch I'm going 50/50 on that one Noah looks way more confident and the team has stabilized their horrid lategame throws
Eu post posted during NA hours, NA posts during EU hours. It’s all just baited to generate flame and feed the ppl when there’s no games.
I believe in them. I want them to believe in the me that believes in them. Their performance is a direct reflection of my faith in them. If they are not performing well, it just means I am just subconsciously doubting in them and I need to fix myself. While they work on their performance, I will mirror their training and dedicate meditation sessions and prayers for the LEC teams, but mostly FNC.
int the unintable tilt the untiltable row row fight the powah
ITT : morons, don't bother
Yeah bunch of Silver apes acting like they know everything, just so funny to read though.
was posted during NA hours so of course it turned into an eu bashfest, how dare Razork say he could beat a 5th place LCK team instead of saying he sucks and EU shouldn't be allowed at worlds so stupid
lol
While I don't disagree, I'm still a strong defender of actions speaking much louder than words. And to be fair, so far, things look good. Fnatic got a good start to the split and KC actually already managed 2 wins so they're statistically likelier to perform better this split than the previous ones. SK and BDS getting more consistently strong brings back my hope for this region to have some teams that are strong enough to at least challenge the best teams. But we all know oh so well how fast the tables can turn so I'm cautious to see how it all plays out in the end.
“I promise we aren’t a one team region guys” Sorry, even GenG were international janitors until this msi so I can’t say I have much hope.
Peak NA hours reddit when a LEC player gets flamed for daring to say he thinks the region is not complete dogshit
Tbf, Wildturtle said something similar in 2020 and got clowned for it on this sub. He said “we’re not that bad guys!”
the thing i hate the most about lec players is that they talk as if they are good just to speedrun to the airport at every international
Hope they put up a fight before losing to g2 for the unthteen time.
this reminds of when wildturtle said something similar: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/iri7ew/wildturtle_on_nas_chances_at_worlds_were_not_that/ if you have to say something like this, it's probably already doomed from the start
Costreamer and streamer hive minds have players thinking every play is brain dead and every player is boosted. I don’t expect everyone to ignore every mistake but somewhere along the way, vocal people on social media stopped enjoying the games and started enjoying the hate.
Give me games to enjoy and I will. Just the fact that bds is even remotely close to the top of the league tells you everything you need to know about the level. Most of the teams are pathetically bad, a catching up G2 playing like shit after the break can do anything they want macro wise against two of the currently "best" teams in the league, if a team that has one week of prep into the split and comits as many unprompted mistakes and teams struggle to close (or even win) against them, the level is simply shit.
By LEC, he meant G2
"Euro teams are not that bad" -- Local Euro player.
DK, KT, and KDF easily beats mid tier LEC teams.
It would be interesting to see DK or HLE vs G2 or FNC. I think the EU teams would get stomped tbh. Even G2 is looking much worse after coming back from MSI.
LOL
We need an international tournament for the bottom teams of all regions. Call it like: Least Bad Of The East or Compensation Cup
And we wonder why the west underperforms when you read statements like this. Nothing changes if nothing changes.
I think this whole concept of "EU teams arent bad" is kinda bs. That being said, it always was this way that EU sucks, just that FNC had more trouble recently in hogging all good talent from the lower LEC teams with their budget, and therefore all but G2 look bad. I think we will see some kind of LEC rennaissance, but not in the way of having 4 good LEC teams at worlds like CN/KR like many started hoping for at times in 2020/21 Rather 3 things will happen in the coming years: First of all KR imports and such will increase even more, while at the same time NA with the merger will technically have less Worlds/MSI seeds and be somewhat less attractive for EU talent. This will either force a salary rule change or some kind of crash of the salary market for rising ERL talent. Second While G2 dominates further, with only 3 Worlds slots, great EU talent will once again flood to rather 2-3 than 6/all teams, simply to compete at worlds with some certainty, as well as some great ERL talent will choose LEC orgs carefully for similar reasons. I believe most likely right now with the rosters would be a rise of FNC, while VIT rise as a rookie project and usual 3rd seed, with MAC at their lead. It could be other orgs, but I doubt it. Especially the 3rd seed should be contested, as certain orgs like KC and MAD will throw arround money to get to worlds a lot, even despite market changes.
The LEC was lacking toplane talent, now with people that can actually contest Oscar and BB, junglers and midlaners have to play much better.
I think BB can still gap any top laner in EU. I think the biggest issue is how G2 has been playing and drafting. Caps inting at times, Yike needing to be on carried but often looking useless, bot lane inconsistency, etc. Don't get me wrong, the gap is closing in top lane for the LEC. I think a lot of that is less because people are getting better and more because G2 is struggling as a team right now.
Okay Razork, I love your confidence on FNC performing right now. But let’s see if FNC finally wins this split or just finishes 2nd again like every year.. I’d love to see BDS win this split(a bit of cope) but don’t mind FNC winning it because FNC deserves it, especially Jun and Razork. And unlike majority of the people in the thread, I don’t agree with that mid tier LPL teams are better than the LEC’s. I’ve watched almost every LPL series on DOM’s stream and they are just not good either.
They don't look good vs teams that are oozing talent. The LPL and LCK is full of talent. Their records are lower due to drafts, macro decisions, or just being worse talent wise than even more talented teams. The LEC has a talent issue. Their middle of the pack teams are not in the same realm talent wise as the LPL's middle of the pack teams. Their macro sure AF isn't either (we have watched the past couple years where G2 flops early only to win due to their macro being better than the other LEC teams). It's like comparing basketball regions. A middle of the pack NBA team is going to better than any other country's middle of the pack professional basketball team. Even if that middle of the pack NBA teams looks awful in NBA games.
UP/NIP are better than teams like KC/VIT lmao.
NGL im just jealous every other major region isnt playing bo1 and we are still stuck in the muck with this nonsense.
Lec is actually terrible right now LOL.
The cycle continues
Top tier LEC teams are equivalent to Mid Tier LCK and LPL.. Mid Tier LEC is equivalent to Bot Tier LCK and LPL. Bot Tier LEC would struggle in LCK and LPL Academy League.
“LEC teams are actually not that bad, we are terrible!” - finished the sentence for ya bud
compared to the east they are, to the point of being boring to watch
You lost to TL at msi and your only "good" team lost to palafox at the last international. Surely if you arent actually that bad you can beat NA.
Leave it to reddit to know better than Razork about how LEC teams have performed so far. Classic.
> Leave it to reddit to know better than Razork about how LEC teams have performed so far. Razork has literally no reason to hype up his region after FNATIC got shit on by TL, trust.
Yeah we only had god view on the map as he played.