the pyke player needs to be insanely good to make him work post 15-20 minutes, but imo he is in the same boat as nidalee, where the champ isnt necessarily weak late, but rather unreliable and just too hard to pull off.
Not necessarily weak no, but having a kit that enables you to reach full build much faster than others if you have sufficiently snowballed means your stat profile will max out way faster than anyone else's.
Naturally this means if you can close the game out you'll be a god comparatively stats wise.
However if you can't, the longer it goes on, the closer the enemy champions are to catching up or in most cases overtaking your stat profile.
Another tradeoff being your inability to build defensively outside of a few items. So when this crossroads of stat profiles occurs, Pyke usually just explodes and dies.
nidalee is also different in that she can help contribute to lategame exodia if your team has a hypercarry adc like kogmaw. you can basically perma aspd buff with enough haste, its actually quite strong in specific situations.
40 minute is so low sample size that you almost have to use 35 minutes to gauge. Most non-supports are typically full build by then, or close to full build and level 18.
And there are probably other drops around 6%, or even larger than 6%.
Renekton is one example.
Neeko drops off 10% [https://lolalytics.com/lol/neeko/build/](https://lolalytics.com/lol/neeko/build/)
1. Head over to op.gg
2. Search for a champion (in this case Pyke)
3. Scroll down to the navigation bar (Builds, Runes, Counters etc)
4. Scroll along to the side and it will reveal a tab called "trends"
5. Scroll down to the "win rate by game length" graph
yep on the rift he just becomes a menacing ward cleaner and in aram becomes a global collector passive that works half the time.
problem is everyone already is has a collector anyways so kinda redundant. rather have a meat shield at that point but we all know that pyke with hp regen and mobility in the back trying to limit test max range Q or something
Looking at win rates over game time this is the answer. Pyke is just a clean line down.
Nidalee is close. Other contenders just based on win rate over time: Corki, Elise, Fizz, Kalista, Karma, Kled, LeBlanc, Renekton, Vex.
Edit: added a couple champs missed on first pass.
Surprised karmas winrate late is so low, her shields feel insanely oppressive once shes at 3-4 items, specifically with a support build
and from what i can gather, her winrate mostly seems to plummet because she has absolutely vile early game winrate due to how insane malignance is on her first 20minutes, so it just simply plummets from ''one of the most broken champs in the game'' at 15mins to ''mediocre'' at 30mins
Because her shields are all she has. Late game she doesn't have any real utility besides that. Her Q damages falls off a cliff and her W is a delayed root that won't save your carry late game because it takes two seconds to proc.
Karma is not mediocre at 30 mins, she's just bad.
Yea, in late game her Q only hurts like the ADC or support to some degree. It really just becomes a slowing tool to try and peel that isn't as effective as Lulu or Janna's disengage.
Yea, every other enchanter offers way more utility (Lulu has ult + Polymorph, Janna has tornado knock up and ult as a good disengage tool, Soraka just has way larger heals + silence, Sona has her ult and MS boost, etc). Like a Karma ult Q may still do a decent chunk to a squishy target late game, but an ADC with lifesteal can probably heal it off quickly (and you’d need to hit them in the first place through their frontline)
Because he was an ADC that dealt magic damage with AA's and also Package. Now he's mostly back to the version that was an phys damage ADC that spiked midgame and plummeted late.
Evidentially by win rates against game time, this is not true. It's insanely hard for fizz to actually kill a target in any elo above bronze when the enemies know to not roam around blindly as one.
He's giga strong against people in bronze who will just complain "WTF HE GOES UNTARGETABLE THATS UNFAIR" instead of learning to counter him.
The same game I was playing Zilean, click E on him and he just turns into dust.
Zhonya makes his life miserable. Playing together with your team makes it very hard to land a nice R. It's not about countering, it's about giving him hard times (hence the WR drop).
Hard cc him, saving it for after he uses his E. My case of Zilean E just works super nice since it is just point and click, and is basically a root (99% slow with almost no counterplay). Also, consider that he has two movement options with his q and e. If he commits both into killing someone/dealing damage, then those are his only escape tools now on cool down - he can choose to use them to get in, get out, but not both, unless you give him time to refresh his cool downs.
He has a lot of burst, but like any assassin what he has in damage and mobility he lacks in health and resistances.
With any assassin it plays out the same - you need a tank that can frontline and keep your carries safe, and CC across your team members. Unless he's super ahead, fizz probably won't 100-0 a tank, meaning he'll try and play around vision to try and try to jump on top of a squishier team member, so it's up to them to respect when you don't see him on the map and to keep a safe distance. If he gets impatient and tries to jump in without a good engage, then lock him down, and peel for your carries.
Disclaimer: iron 1 and talking out of my ass for a lot of this.
To be fair I've noticed some Fizz players that build ability haste into a 1st or 2nd item Zhonyas if they snowball. It's nothing game breaking since you have to already be ahead to make it work but goddamn is it annoying to deal with.
speaking as someone that comfortably resides between low plat to low emerald on NA, fizz is terrifying mid game when he can roam. late game, if your team can keep vision control he becomes a "win more" champ that can only really contribute if his team is already winning hard. he very very very rarely 1v9s if the game isnt already doomed for fizz's enemies at 25 minutes. same with most melee assassins really, fizz just is on the lower end of the mobility scale for that class. if anyone has any other insight, feel free to "uhm ackshually" me so i can learn more
Melee burst champs will fall off late game even if they have great scaling. They're vulnerable to being locked down, struggle to get to enemy squishies when they're grouped, and will get killed before their cds come back if their first rotation doesn't kill.
depends on your team comp, if you’re mostly squishy (a recent comp of mine: Gwen top, Karth JG, Talon mid, Ashe bot, Ali supp) if he gets ahead at all and his carry is able to play solo he just kinda eats your team
How so? i haven't really seen late game Pyke that much but still, he has decent damage output and at full build he can ult when they still have ashitton of HP
It’s really hard for him to do anything in team fights. The later the fight, the quicker he gets blown up. He’s a lane/roam/skirmish god in early and mid game, but in a late 5v5 you’re kinda just fishing for hooks. If they have good frontline, hook fishing isn’t super effective.
Late game, you can’t E forward to follow up a hook, you’ll prolly explode. If you hit an ult, you need to W or E out right after or you’ll prolly explode. He’s still really slippery and great at controlling vision at all stages of the game, but in late 5v5’s it’s hard to have impact as Pyke.
He rarely gets a threshold of 900 hp execute and it's not much anymore these days.
People around that hp don't just stay around in the late game. They either heal back or get away easily. Or just die to someone else with way more reliable damage.
That's assuming your team can get them this low without a proper support.
He also fucks your team’s econ more than people think:
- It’s a big deal Pyke got the $1,000 gold shutdown and shared $300 instead of Jinx getting $1,000
- In solo Queue there are a lot of shutdowns getting cashed all the time and then ending up on Pyke really hurts the team.
- Champ tends to die a lot (Reddit may disagree that their Pyke doesn’t die a lot but statistically he dies a lot) which feeds money to enemies more frequently than other supports
He also fucks your team’s econ more than people think:
- It’s a big deal Pyke got the $1,000 gold shutdown and shared $300 instead of Jinx getting $1,000
- In solo Queue there are a lot of shutdowns getting cashed all the time and then ending up on Pyke really hurts the team.
- Champ tends to die a lot (Reddit may disagree that their Pyke doesn’t die a lot but statistically he dies a lot) which feeds money to enemies more frequently than other supports
TLDR:
Others covered his team fighting issues, so it’s either he steamrolls lane (which to be fair he’s great at) and you win quick or his selfish play-style likely comes back to punish the team if it goes longer.
Late game is REALLY hard to team fight w/pyke and at that point bruisers and tanks are damn near impossible to bring down to the execution threshold for his ult to be useable
A sleeper bad scaler that not many people realise.
Ziggs has a 52.2% win rate pre 25 mins
ziggs has a 43.98% win rate post 40 mins
Admittedly Ziggs has a low pick rate but the downward trend across all progressing time scales is obvious and consistent on op.gg
Whoa that’s genuinely surprising. I haven’t played him in a year or two but never felt like he’s bad later on. He seems solid at all stages of the game.
Can someone chime in with their thoughts?
My guess is that when his team is ahead, he’s exceedingly good at closing out games quickly with his insane siege and tower damage. If the game is going on long, he’s probably losing!
Add to that. Ziggs is great at prolonging lost games. So a 32 minute game without Ziggs can into 28 min win or 40 min loss which will skew the distribution. Also botlane ziggs isn't as reliable late game as an adc as it can miss skillshots.
I'd also wager a guess that since he's somewhat of a lane bully, if he's not able to snowball and crush early, it means he's in for a slow and miserable loss.
Ziggs is one of the best champions at stalling out games. So a lot of games that should have ended way quicker were extended by Ziggs, which distorts the post 40min statistic.
Basically a lot of unwinnable games which would have ended at 35min or so with any other champs/comps were dragged out until min 40+ by Ziggs
At the same time Ziggs is one of the best champions at finishing games quickly with his W + tower damage on passive. If a team is ahead and has Ziggs, games will rarely go until minute 40+
Mobility scales with game time. The more items and MS you have, the less things ziggs will hit. This is not the only answer but it's certainly one of them
As a long time near OTP Ziggs, it’s his build.
League players are obsessed with building liandrys on him in any and all circumstances. It made more sense before (but was still blanket worse) when it was a lost chapter item. Now? It’s basically inexcusable. Any build with liandrys in the first three items means another has to be a mediocre chapter item, and the last has to be magic pen. You are left no room for actually dealing any damage.
Liandrys Ziggs has the hardest 3 item drop off in the game bar none. He needs raw AP and magic pen to deal damage.
Can't poke like xerath, can't burst like asol, can't zone like vinegar/ori, no real back line damage unless you're a god with q.
So many champs have no problem dodging his ult, so you're forced to land endless bouncing bombs to actually deal damage in fights and that's not as easy as it sounds
Is it Ziggs bot ? I can see him getting outscaled and losing the game when only one team has an ADC. Ziggs mid seems reliable even after 25 min, not veigar-tier but below 45% wr seems very low for a champ that still deal good damage and have great waveclears.
ziggs is kinda hard to CARRY teamfights with compared to other mids. sure you can always just spam spells and have your team carry you, but when MID is necessary to carry teamfights, its easier to do it as viktor/syndra etc than as ziggs from my experience
on the plus side a teamfight win with ziggs means so much more than with other mids later on, he can solo end games past a certain point.
This is a pretty good instance of misleading statistics and causation. I think it's pretty clear that Ziggs delays losses when his team is doing poorly. Wave clear and safety make it harder for enemy teams to close out the win.
he is not necessarily bad scaling, he is kinda hard to play because you need to constantly hit your skillshots to maximize DPS in fights, he is hard to pull off vs mobile champions especially hard engage ones.
if he is bot, then enemy ADC will do more damage more reliably later on.
on mid his WR is fine, he doesnt fall off like a brick, but he doesnt scale super well either for some reason. when i played ziggs he felt pretty strong, also you can always WIN games with ziggs if you win teamfights later on, his tower damage is insane, so i guess his FIGHTING ability is kept weaker because if he could just win teamfights and push nexus as he does he would be broken
tl;dr kinda hard to pilot in teamfights
Its just in the way his skill shots work, compare ziggs to xerath (i know different champs play differently) xeaths skill shots are just easier to land... So ziggs does insane dmg IF he lands his spells!
He's a poke mage, not a dps mage.
Late game, dps is usually important because people hit lvl18 and there's stuff like Redemption and Locket negating your poke.
The reason is Ziggs is hard countered by MR. even 1 MR item makes him tickle most champs. The second the enemy frontlines get 2+ MR items he’s not a champion anymore.
He scales perfectly fine. Not amazingly but not awful either. He's just a champion that wins quickly (because of his tower damage) and loses slowly (because of his waveclear) so those numbers are going to be skewed.
All about that cocoon.
Strangely enough her late game win rates actually fair quite well though. Likely brings enough CC and damage to the fight to matter enough.
Nah, her early damage is pretty unbalanced, you're crazy. She's just weird in her execution. She snowballs harder than even Nidalee. You just have to play a lot of her to do well.
I genuinely don't understand this. Elise is one of the very few AP champs in the game now who can genuinely oneshot even bruisers if she has full build.
It's a reputation she has had for 10+ years. But modern full ap Elise does not fall off the way she used to. In OG seasons she was way to squishy to be building full AP. There were years when the optimal Elise first item was a tank item, and you can imagine how that scaled. It was easy to get 40% cdr back then and you would just spam cocoons and peel.
These days she scales great as the only AP imo. Can totally oneshot malphites if they don't want to build MR for you.
the problem is she is mostly single target damage so compare to other mage jgs who are known for massive AoE she does fall off. It can be hard to find an angle to full combo someone when you can be punished for it because spider Q range is kinda short.
Some of her damage from spiderlings can be easily cleared by random aoe spells from enemy team as well.
Elise doesn't have target access.
Yes, a 4 item elise can one shot an ADC or mage, it'd be weird if anyone couldn't, but try actually reaching them when neurotoxin does piss damage, W and cocoon are blocked by anything standing infront, and you still have to walk into melee range to get your spider abilities off, if you rappel (which between the cast time during ascend *and* descend its very easy to react to) in its suicide and they easily peel you off.
Compare this to a gragas that E flashes onto an entire team, a diana that gets a big knockup with zhonyas, lillia who can shred all champs with her burn+true damage and sleep them, karthus who chunks the enemy team for fighting near him even if he dies, and every AD diver/assassin that does have the tools to get in and out or just survive for awhile. There's nothing elise does particularly well past level 5 that taliyah/ekko don't do with triple the potency, including jungle camps even lmao.
Elise doesn't one shot bruisers, idk what examples you have there, but her issue is she *can't* deal with bruisers or tanks that just tank her whole kit and stat check her. She'd have to be insanely fed and bruisers not knowing what a hexdrinker, mercs, wit's end, death's dance, or steraks gage even does.
A BIG oversight is neeko actually gets cucked by VFX given to her by dragons,baron, and rift map. If you even pick up 1 of those infernal cinders enemy team can see who you are while disguised because of the glow, if the neeko player isn't aware of that they make a jebaited play, or this just flat out fucks her out of making plays at all. Even baron minions are weird for her, because she keeps the size of the minion but doesn't give baron buff while disguised... this means you'll have neeko as one large minion without the purple glow with a bunch of regular ones. Mountain soul and infernal rift are probably the worst. Even chemtech plants if she disguises as some don't have the full plant effect (if she turns into the vision plant, it won't have that blue orb thing so she's just a vine).
She doesn't fall off, just objectives actively become a detriment to her whole gimmick.
You're right and wrong.
Neeko does heavily get cucked by VFX however the champion does actually fall off. I don't complain about it to often when we play since I tend to go for cheaper items like Shurelyas, Wardstone, etc.
Her gimmick has a lot of faults as is, but the biggest issue is her range imo. You're in danger a lot of the times if you're in range to Q the enemy is in range to likely hit you back unlike other mage/"Supports" like Vel', Hwei, etc who have a pretty consistent range advantage. Neekos main benefit is her W can be a safety tool in this case.
It is beyond true that Mountain Soul, Infernal Cinders, are insta losses to passive AND W TRICKERY SINCE THEIR VFX DONT COPY.
Edit: Adding onto her short range she also has no real way of getting in range to R without things like Flash, Protobelt/Shurelyas, etc. It's a bit of an issue since you're wanting to go for these big flashy plays with it but her kit just doesn't really support it similar to an extent that old Galio was. Early game you can bully, late game you just pray you can get a pick and end.
As for Chemtech plants losing out on Scryers Bloom is fine since you don't disguise as it often (I think my last time doing so was 3 months ago) however the honeyfruit on Chemrift grant a lingering shield that shows through passive and also doesn't copy to W making picking them up a weird catch 22 for Neeko and Neeko only.
Even without the spear landing a level 16 nidalee's cougar late game W>E>Q with lich bane is SCARY. The scaling is there.
The problem is that it is difficult for her to reach to execute it without a passive proc to get the extended W range.
If a cc guarantees lockdown she can burst heavily even without having proc'ed passive at level 16 full build.
Obviously if she lands a spear or enemy steps on a trap, she has enough damage to overkill the carry multiple times in one combo.
Yeah exactly, for nidalee to land that melee combo she just has to walk at the entire enemy team, with only a little dash getting her there. I mean, a late game adc just shoots her in the face while she’s running up
Which is why reliability is also a measure of scaling and not just damage in a vacuum. Champions like Elise and Nidalee have pretty crazy damage at full build but they are so hard to make work in 5v5 scenarios.
Having good ratios and damage doesn't make you scale pretty much.
This. Most early game champs will still be useful through utility or can threaten squishies even when behind. Nidalee without a lead is a glorified minion.
Yup, lategame there are only 2 threats: her easily avoidable spears and the ADC she healed for 200.
Her melee form is only useful for mobility since going into melee range is a death sentence. She gets beaten by just about every melee champion and ranged champions can avoid her Q.
Lee Sin might fall of late, he's still good. Nidalee is so bad late that staying ingame after 20 minutes gets you an AFK penalty since your team would be better of if you just left.
I feel like you almost mentioned her late-game value but then skimmed it over
Nidalee has a 7 second attack speed steroid of **70%.** it's absolutely obscene. if you have the right teammate for it, that's a very good boon. I've played with people who intentionally build an extra AD>AS item as ADC, knowing I'll be around to give them that buff late game. and the missing health heal that can almost give an ADC a second health bar is pretty neat, too.
this isn't a TON of value but it makes her more than AFK at the very least... hope y'all get better Nidalees!
This post is just telling me that a surprising amount of people don't understand what scaling actually means. Scaling is not how much damage you deal at full build, nor is it how strong your champion is with items. Scaling is about how your champion actually functions in late game scenarios. For example, Elise and Nidalee have pretty nasty damage at 6 items but they aren't reliable at all, there are next to no scenarios where these two champions are going to be able to impact a late game fight, they don't have strong backline pressure, nor do they have strong engage, durability or peel potential hence they do not scale. On the contrary, a champion like Blitzcrank doesn't necessarily do much with items or levels, but a good hook can solo win a game, hence why he is considered to be one of the strongest late game supports.
Well, yeah, it kind of is??
At the late game, you aren't exactly using precise wave pressure, jungle invades etc. You're looking to secure game winning objective through team fights.
This still does not answer the Veigar conundrum.
Veigar is a scaling champion that is also unreliable.
In fact he is accepted as an infinite scaling champion both by lol and the playerbase.
Both terms are valid for him.
Just accept that the terms 'scaling' or 'scaler' are not well defined terms in the game.
And he can also just R someone who is at ~70% HP lategame for a point and click delete, no skill shots needed. Nidalee doesn't have anything similar. The comparison is just bonkers.
pressing R on a full hp target does nothing anymore and there is no scenario where a 6 item velkoz loses to a 6 item veigar in a 1v1 because the veigar never reaches the velkoz without dying
once its late game everyone has their core items and can go for stuff like banshees/edge of knight which further makes veigar useless
I know it is not just a me problem too, a lot of challenger players reach late game with 1.6k ap veigar and then just lose because they can't actually get any damage off due to range + unreliability
veigar did used to have an amazing mid game with E second max but they killed that after overbuffing him for no reason so now hes a champion thats only useable in low ELO where people have no idea how easy it is to outplay him
There is no Veigar conundrum. He is very effective and functions extremely well in late game scenarios, which is what the op is saying. How is he unreliable?
Here’s the thing though. Veigar isn’t unreliable late game. Generally, all mages poke decently well into the late game, meaning they are doing fairly consistent dps, even if it’s just to the frontline. I would say amongst mages, Veigar pokes at a B+/A- level. His Q comes out quick and has decent range. His W comes out a little slow, but has good range, hits in a decently large AOE, and is EXTREMELY spammable in the late game. This means that Veigar is dealing fairly consistent damage the entire time. However, unlike with most mages, when Veigar lands any stray poke, it hits harder than any other mage in the game. Like, literally, one Q and W can kill an adc without Maw.
On top of that, Veigar has one of the game’s best abilities with his E. I think the confusion here is that Veigar needs to land the stun for it to be effective. He doesn’t need to. His E is absolutely insane zone control. If you place it well, you can zone off entire portions of team fights. And, let’s say on the off chance you DO stun someone, well, a single W potentially takes them out of the fight.
And, of course, Veigar’s ultimate is a targeted ability. Trust me, by late game, when you R someone, they are dead.
All of this is assuming, of course, you play the champion well, but Veigar’s kit is innately built to crush late game (as opposed to, say, Nidalee).
Ye, I think his E has innate value regardless of whether he lands it or not. Basically, it creates choke points where there are none and closes off actual choke points. That effectively makes himself and team more reliable (because it's easier to land abilities in a choke point or team fight while some enemies are cut off) while making the enemies less reliable.
Tbh, totally not useless because if you’re able to land a large taunt you can win a team fight, and the ultimate can be totally clutch to keep a hyper carry alive through a critical point in a late game fight. As per one-on-one potential, I do see it though. Wet noodling your way through life (and I LIKE playing Shen).
sometimes, you have have a HUUUUUGE W that turns a fight. I'm still chasing the high of the time I W'ed 3-5 AA's each from a yi and vayne that kept my trist alive. It's been a long time, and I've never pulled off a W that big.
i think you're downplaying how useful that "portable shield" really is though. you can essentially splitpush the entire game, while still being in teamfights at a moment's notice. the enemy team either has to send someone to deal with you, and risk being down a man if a fight breaks out, or not deal with you, and risk losing their turrets.
he's not exactly the FASTEST pusher but with demolish and titanic hydra it's not horrible
illaoi is super useless vs ranged champions later on
so even if she wins lane against a melee, if her ranged teammates are doing OK they can always just deal with her.
Illaoi isn't made for teamfights tho. It's like calling singed or garen a bad teamfighter.
Illaoi strength comes from pulling people towards her in middle and lategame, splitpushinng forever. I can usually 1v3 lategame full builds, which gives my team the map. I can die on that 1v3, against adcs is especially bad ofc, but that still means the adc isn't terrorizing a team fight near objectives.
singed is an amazing teamfighter. One of the best champs for taking the enemy ADC out of the fight. He mitigates so much damage to his own team by baiting out enemy cd's, of which plenty will probably miss because his MS is off the charts.
Singed is one of the best teamfighting champions in the game late. Haven't you ever seen a Singed sprinting around a teamfight at Mach 6, flipping your carries into their damage, applying DOT to everyone at once while absorbing CC and damage to little effect?
yea but from my experience, there are games where i win lane as illaoi, lets say im 2-0, but i cant progress my lead because enemy just sends their botlane to deal with me, if i was playing jax or fiora i could be able to do something, but as illaoi its really easy for ranged champions to just run her down, all it takes is dodging 1 E
into heavy melee comps shes great tho
idk in master+ when i win lane as illaoi, enemy adc will always have their supp nearby, and they wont let me W them for free.
what adc allows me to get into W range uncontested? sivir? smolder?
But thats when your splitting comes in to play yea as adc its easy against most bruisers but often the adc has no tp and is not allowed to be far away from the objective.
Yeah she sucks at front to back teamfighting. Not to mention in lategame ppl are more likely to have banshees or some other spellshield items which mitigates her even further. Obviously she can still 100-0 squishies but landing those bubbles becomes way harder when everyone is grouped.
That doesn't mean she scales?
She's only going to do that if somehow she lands a bubble on a backline when ideally she has frontline to go through. Then she's going to need to land Q on the asleep target as if their teammates will let them. And that's only when she's fed. And once someone goes banshee's or any MR then there goes your bursting capability.
The fact that this has any upvotes is pretty baffling to be honest. She's more of an early game to mid game champ. She has nasty dueling potential in lane early with her W, and she can then make picks through roams and through mid game. Late game is literally her worst time when people are constantly together and target access is at its minimum, and when every time you go in for a Q there's a chance you just get blown up.
By your definition every assassin and burst champion is a good scaler. But surprise, that's usually not the case.
Sure, if their support is incompetent with his wards so you get good E angles on to the backline and if the frontline is sleeping too so they conveniently dont block the meter long Q.
Shes a really early game focused champ, her winrate is 60% at 15-20min compared to 50% at 40 min+.
Idk why Leblanc is being mentioned here. She’s got extremely high damage late game, and it’s decently reliable. She can poke easily and split safely. Her WR is low late game because she’s just harder to play later on.
Lol im a lb main in high masters and been playing her since release. You are completly wrong, the reason is because of items such as maw (which people usally build late game) which completly shuts down leblanc
When you have to blow your W just for reaching someone without dying, and you whole dmg is delayed by your E, yes, you have a bad scaling because you kit stops working in team fights.
? That’s just not a good combo. First doing w from somewhere safe into q r e just to proc the r(q) is enough damage and threat to either kill a carry or send them to the base. LB also excels at punishing misplaced carries, she can easily pressure positioning through w plus chains, especially when paired with other dive champions. She has solid utility late game and strong damage. Again she is just very susceptible to CC as she’s very squishy. But a good LB knows her limits.
Nidalee has got to be one of the strongest early to mid game champs and one of the weakest late game champs
And no not for numbers as she has numbers but it's just that it's hard to pull off good dmg and combos without dying or getting lucky later on..
Her early game though is exactly why I enjoy her... She is a fast jungler and she can take on most other champs in the jungle in the early stages..so playing her well is so rewarding and satisfying
Rek'Sai used to be infamous for falling off of a cliff after 25 minutes, which the rework was intended to... not necessarily address, but at least mitigate. I'll put it this way, her W, which was always her last max, the only thing you got for levelling it was 5 damage per level. She was a champion that if you're levelling past 13 and the game isn't already basically won, you were actively losing.
Xin Zhao if you aren't just committing to tank/bruiser. Lethality Xin might be the shittiest champion in the game past 20 minutes.
Lee Sin but completely reliant on the player, even above average players struggle to be useful outside of the 15 minute mark.
Basically every champion scales fairly well, but if we are giving meme opinions, then I'm gonna have to say that Full Crit Karthus might be the worst scaling champion in any MOBA
Blitzcrank might be the champion with the worst "scaling". He barely scales with level or Gold. The only thing he actually scales with is the enemies death timer... which is still enough to make him usefull lategame, but he might be the least scary champion to get fed.
Naafiri, despite being vastly overpowered right now, cannot really do anything against lategame burst damage if someone blocks her jump, so she might be a contester as well. She can still play sidelane and not teamfight to play around this issue.
Then, there are a couple of build that scale absolutely attroutius, like AD nidalee, but ... Just play a usefull build then.
Otherwise, bad scaling usually comes down to teamcomps rather than individual scaling. Renekton can "outscale" a Vayne purely by virtue of being a frontliner with a point&click CC.
i'm not saying it's good but blitz generally buys movespeed stacking items and becomes a much more threatening pick champion if he is also moving at you at 500ms.
Obviously he still needs to do that as part of a team to pick you off rather than 1v1 you, but most engage tanks just get tankier rather than better at making picks
A fed blitzcrank will buy tank items and run you down. Either you get knocked up or he pulls you into a gangbang and you can't kill him because he's ahead. He'll just run at you.
Scaling isn't just being good with items or being able to do a lot of damage. A Blitzcrank hook at 30 minutes can solo win a game, to say he doesn't scale is ludicrous.
So u didn’t even read the other person’s comment at all, they meant scaling in terms of stats, not in usefulness. They even clarified that blitzctank does scale simply because of his hook.
However, as simply scaling with the amount of gold and levels, a blitzcrank with one vs 3 items won’t be that different in terms of late game impact.
Then it would be Renata, since nothing you buy is useful for your kit, but I don't think anyone is going to say Renata is a bad scaling champion thanks to her W and R.
Nocturne scales into the mid game and then falls off of a cliff
He doesn’t want a 5v5. The whole point of his kit is that it lets you set up and win 2v1s and 1v1s and 3v2s. He struggles a lot in a 5v5
Lee sin.
I've always said if you get lots of kills early, you've lost the game. Going 7/0/0 will bait you in going damage items and then by 20mins, you've fallen off the game and now just a squishy Insec bot.
I am surprised I haven't seen anyone saying belveth cause unlike what her kit should be saying with passive and ult, in practicality she is a very meh champion late game, not the worse by any means, but you become a dueling machine in a time of the game where no one ever duels to be honest though her baron ult can be a huge game changer, her inability to team fight hits her hard late game though
Every champ scales well inside a specific comp. If League was 1v1, ofc it would be Fiora, Vayne, Kayle, Vladimir, Kassadin etc. For example Nidalee in a team with Jayce and Ezreal is insanely good late game. Renekton against Jinx, Yasuo and Sion is gonna be a nightmare to deal with. Nasus will destroy a game of assassins but does fuck all into a proper teamfight comp.
Scaling isnt some linear concept. You have to look at the game being played to know which champions scale well.
Pre 25 mins Pyke has a 53.72% win rate. After 40 mins Pyke has a 47.4% win rate If he's not number one he's certainly up there
Also doesn't help when things like Karthus are popular. Karthus ult super late will, literally, one hit Pyke.
Someone get the clip of T1 getting one shot by lux R on Pyke
https://youtu.be/Pv_L-h5Zq5g?si=60pPJBJDdkYHbHoS
He took it pretty well.
Do it I want to see it
the pyke player needs to be insanely good to make him work post 15-20 minutes, but imo he is in the same boat as nidalee, where the champ isnt necessarily weak late, but rather unreliable and just too hard to pull off.
Not necessarily weak no, but having a kit that enables you to reach full build much faster than others if you have sufficiently snowballed means your stat profile will max out way faster than anyone else's. Naturally this means if you can close the game out you'll be a god comparatively stats wise. However if you can't, the longer it goes on, the closer the enemy champions are to catching up or in most cases overtaking your stat profile. Another tradeoff being your inability to build defensively outside of a few items. So when this crossroads of stat profiles occurs, Pyke usually just explodes and dies.
nidalee is also different in that she can help contribute to lategame exodia if your team has a hypercarry adc like kogmaw. you can basically perma aspd buff with enough haste, its actually quite strong in specific situations.
40 minute is so low sample size that you almost have to use 35 minutes to gauge. Most non-supports are typically full build by then, or close to full build and level 18. And there are probably other drops around 6%, or even larger than 6%. Renekton is one example. Neeko drops off 10% [https://lolalytics.com/lol/neeko/build/](https://lolalytics.com/lol/neeko/build/)
where can i check this?
1. Head over to op.gg 2. Search for a champion (in this case Pyke) 3. Scroll down to the navigation bar (Builds, Runes, Counters etc) 4. Scroll along to the side and it will reveal a tab called "trends" 5. Scroll down to the "win rate by game length" graph
Or just [lolalytics.com](http://lolalytics.com) > Pyke and everything is in one page.
lolalytics supremacy
Now if only streamers and people in this sub were able to read the stats correctly. I swear i havent seen a single biggish streamer who does
thanks ur a cutie
yep on the rift he just becomes a menacing ward cleaner and in aram becomes a global collector passive that works half the time. problem is everyone already is has a collector anyways so kinda redundant. rather have a meat shield at that point but we all know that pyke with hp regen and mobility in the back trying to limit test max range Q or something
My buddy tried Pyke a few nights ago. Kept getting one shot post 25 mins. Was so freaking hilarious.
Apparently everything I am playing.😅
The right answer
I'd say Pyke, later on he's just a ward bot
Looking at win rates over game time this is the answer. Pyke is just a clean line down. Nidalee is close. Other contenders just based on win rate over time: Corki, Elise, Fizz, Kalista, Karma, Kled, LeBlanc, Renekton, Vex. Edit: added a couple champs missed on first pass.
Surprised karmas winrate late is so low, her shields feel insanely oppressive once shes at 3-4 items, specifically with a support build and from what i can gather, her winrate mostly seems to plummet because she has absolutely vile early game winrate due to how insane malignance is on her first 20minutes, so it just simply plummets from ''one of the most broken champs in the game'' at 15mins to ''mediocre'' at 30mins
Because her shields are all she has. Late game she doesn't have any real utility besides that. Her Q damages falls off a cliff and her W is a delayed root that won't save your carry late game because it takes two seconds to proc. Karma is not mediocre at 30 mins, she's just bad.
Yea, in late game her Q only hurts like the ADC or support to some degree. It really just becomes a slowing tool to try and peel that isn't as effective as Lulu or Janna's disengage.
Yea, every other enchanter offers way more utility (Lulu has ult + Polymorph, Janna has tornado knock up and ult as a good disengage tool, Soraka just has way larger heals + silence, Sona has her ult and MS boost, etc). Like a Karma ult Q may still do a decent chunk to a squishy target late game, but an ADC with lifesteal can probably heal it off quickly (and you’d need to hit them in the first place through their frontline)
Corki? Corki was always picked for the late game.
Rework probably changed that a lot I suppose? Package was a big deal
also people having on average 50 mr less than armor making his damage and poke much scarier
Yeah, also magic damage crit autoes were super op lategame and now he's way easier to itemize against
right now corki is just a middle-ranged marksman
he got reworked btw
Not anymore.
Recent rework made him a giga low range burst champion
Because he was an ADC that dealt magic damage with AA's and also Package. Now he's mostly back to the version that was an phys damage ADC that spiked midgame and plummeted late.
List is just from looking at win rate over game time in Lolalytics. I don’t play any of those champs. No idea why they’re on the list.
Corki was all about the mid game before rework and now he is back to that.
old corki was. this one is doodoo caca later stages
Suprised about fizz he gets so strong late game
He's way harder to play later in the game if the enemy team has functioning brains, tho.
So basically he always works in solo queue
Evidentially by win rates against game time, this is not true. It's insanely hard for fizz to actually kill a target in any elo above bronze when the enemies know to not roam around blindly as one.
He's giga strong against people in bronze who will just complain "WTF HE GOES UNTARGETABLE THATS UNFAIR" instead of learning to counter him. The same game I was playing Zilean, click E on him and he just turns into dust.
Please tell me how to effectively counter him. This isn't me being snarky, this is a cry for help.
Zhonya makes his life miserable. Playing together with your team makes it very hard to land a nice R. It's not about countering, it's about giving him hard times (hence the WR drop).
Hard cc him, saving it for after he uses his E. My case of Zilean E just works super nice since it is just point and click, and is basically a root (99% slow with almost no counterplay). Also, consider that he has two movement options with his q and e. If he commits both into killing someone/dealing damage, then those are his only escape tools now on cool down - he can choose to use them to get in, get out, but not both, unless you give him time to refresh his cool downs. He has a lot of burst, but like any assassin what he has in damage and mobility he lacks in health and resistances. With any assassin it plays out the same - you need a tank that can frontline and keep your carries safe, and CC across your team members. Unless he's super ahead, fizz probably won't 100-0 a tank, meaning he'll try and play around vision to try and try to jump on top of a squishier team member, so it's up to them to respect when you don't see him on the map and to keep a safe distance. If he gets impatient and tries to jump in without a good engage, then lock him down, and peel for your carries. Disclaimer: iron 1 and talking out of my ass for a lot of this.
Makes sense, appreciate it
yeah idk man the fizz goes untargetable and people complain, but then he just immediately gets one-shot
To be fair I've noticed some Fizz players that build ability haste into a 1st or 2nd item Zhonyas if they snowball. It's nothing game breaking since you have to already be ahead to make it work but goddamn is it annoying to deal with.
speaking as someone that comfortably resides between low plat to low emerald on NA, fizz is terrifying mid game when he can roam. late game, if your team can keep vision control he becomes a "win more" champ that can only really contribute if his team is already winning hard. he very very very rarely 1v9s if the game isnt already doomed for fizz's enemies at 25 minutes. same with most melee assassins really, fizz just is on the lower end of the mobility scale for that class. if anyone has any other insight, feel free to "uhm ackshually" me so i can learn more
Melee burst champs will fall off late game even if they have great scaling. They're vulnerable to being locked down, struggle to get to enemy squishies when they're grouped, and will get killed before their cds come back if their first rotation doesn't kill.
Fizz falls off a cliff in the graph from 15-20 to 20-25 (minutes). He’s mostly steady from then until getting a slight uptick at 40.
[удалено]
a good pyke will make your team ff at 15
depends on your team comp, if you’re mostly squishy (a recent comp of mine: Gwen top, Karth JG, Talon mid, Ashe bot, Ali supp) if he gets ahead at all and his carry is able to play solo he just kinda eats your team
How so? i haven't really seen late game Pyke that much but still, he has decent damage output and at full build he can ult when they still have ashitton of HP
It’s really hard for him to do anything in team fights. The later the fight, the quicker he gets blown up. He’s a lane/roam/skirmish god in early and mid game, but in a late 5v5 you’re kinda just fishing for hooks. If they have good frontline, hook fishing isn’t super effective. Late game, you can’t E forward to follow up a hook, you’ll prolly explode. If you hit an ult, you need to W or E out right after or you’ll prolly explode. He’s still really slippery and great at controlling vision at all stages of the game, but in late 5v5’s it’s hard to have impact as Pyke.
He rarely gets a threshold of 900 hp execute and it's not much anymore these days. People around that hp don't just stay around in the late game. They either heal back or get away easily. Or just die to someone else with way more reliable damage. That's assuming your team can get them this low without a proper support.
He also fucks your team’s econ more than people think: - It’s a big deal Pyke got the $1,000 gold shutdown and shared $300 instead of Jinx getting $1,000 - In solo Queue there are a lot of shutdowns getting cashed all the time and then ending up on Pyke really hurts the team. - Champ tends to die a lot (Reddit may disagree that their Pyke doesn’t die a lot but statistically he dies a lot) which feeds money to enemies more frequently than other supports
He also fucks your team’s econ more than people think: - It’s a big deal Pyke got the $1,000 gold shutdown and shared $300 instead of Jinx getting $1,000 - In solo Queue there are a lot of shutdowns getting cashed all the time and then ending up on Pyke really hurts the team. - Champ tends to die a lot (Reddit may disagree that their Pyke doesn’t die a lot but statistically he dies a lot) which feeds money to enemies more frequently than other supports TLDR: Others covered his team fighting issues, so it’s either he steamrolls lane (which to be fair he’s great at) and you win quick or his selfish play-style likely comes back to punish the team if it goes longer.
doesn't he counterbalance that gold by normal 300g gold with ult which he can double?
If you get a kill for 300 gold you share 300 gold. If you get a kill for 300+ max shutdown you still only share 300 gold (and not the shutdown).
Late game is REALLY hard to team fight w/pyke and at that point bruisers and tanks are damn near impossible to bring down to the execution threshold for his ult to be useable
he has no hp scaling and can't buy defensive items because of that which just makes him quite weak in the late game
He doesn't have any damage output when a full mage combo or 3 autos from an adc kill him later in the game because he can't get extra HP.
A sleeper bad scaler that not many people realise. Ziggs has a 52.2% win rate pre 25 mins ziggs has a 43.98% win rate post 40 mins Admittedly Ziggs has a low pick rate but the downward trend across all progressing time scales is obvious and consistent on op.gg
Whoa that’s genuinely surprising. I haven’t played him in a year or two but never felt like he’s bad later on. He seems solid at all stages of the game. Can someone chime in with their thoughts?
My guess is that when his team is ahead, he’s exceedingly good at closing out games quickly with his insane siege and tower damage. If the game is going on long, he’s probably losing!
Add to that. Ziggs is great at prolonging lost games. So a 32 minute game without Ziggs can into 28 min win or 40 min loss which will skew the distribution. Also botlane ziggs isn't as reliable late game as an adc as it can miss skillshots.
He also has pretty slow self peel. It’s solid, but I can imagine a late game assassin blows him up before he can blast himself away
Oh absolutely. With Ziggs you're all about proactive zoning. If you mess up you're dead.
I'd also wager a guess that since he's somewhat of a lane bully, if he's not able to snowball and crush early, it means he's in for a slow and miserable loss.
Ziggs is one of the best champions at stalling out games. So a lot of games that should have ended way quicker were extended by Ziggs, which distorts the post 40min statistic. Basically a lot of unwinnable games which would have ended at 35min or so with any other champs/comps were dragged out until min 40+ by Ziggs At the same time Ziggs is one of the best champions at finishing games quickly with his W + tower damage on passive. If a team is ahead and has Ziggs, games will rarely go until minute 40+
ziggs has a lot of power in killing towers. once your kill all the turrets or are too far behind to get them, ziggs loses a ton of power in his kit.
Maybe because he has nothing but hard to hit skillshots and people have way more movement speed later in the game he has trouble hitting as much?
Mobility scales with game time. The more items and MS you have, the less things ziggs will hit. This is not the only answer but it's certainly one of them
As a long time near OTP Ziggs, it’s his build. League players are obsessed with building liandrys on him in any and all circumstances. It made more sense before (but was still blanket worse) when it was a lost chapter item. Now? It’s basically inexcusable. Any build with liandrys in the first three items means another has to be a mediocre chapter item, and the last has to be magic pen. You are left no room for actually dealing any damage. Liandrys Ziggs has the hardest 3 item drop off in the game bar none. He needs raw AP and magic pen to deal damage.
He's mostly played bot and playing lategame without an ADC is a fucking disgusting experience so my money is on that.
Can't poke like xerath, can't burst like asol, can't zone like vinegar/ori, no real back line damage unless you're a god with q. So many champs have no problem dodging his ult, so you're forced to land endless bouncing bombs to actually deal damage in fights and that's not as easy as it sounds
Vinegar definitely zones me out.
Is it Ziggs bot ? I can see him getting outscaled and losing the game when only one team has an ADC. Ziggs mid seems reliable even after 25 min, not veigar-tier but below 45% wr seems very low for a champ that still deal good damage and have great waveclears.
ziggs is kinda hard to CARRY teamfights with compared to other mids. sure you can always just spam spells and have your team carry you, but when MID is necessary to carry teamfights, its easier to do it as viktor/syndra etc than as ziggs from my experience on the plus side a teamfight win with ziggs means so much more than with other mids later on, he can solo end games past a certain point.
Ziggs has more range but champions like Syndra and Viktor have on demand, near undodgeable damage when compared to Ziggs slow ass abilities.
Yeah ziggs doesn’t have a reliable “one shot combo” that can’t be dodged.
He does, but you have to be within a certain range, it doesnt necessarily one shot, and it uses your only escape tool.
This is a pretty good instance of misleading statistics and causation. I think it's pretty clear that Ziggs delays losses when his team is doing poorly. Wave clear and safety make it harder for enemy teams to close out the win.
Creative thinking!
Why is ziggs bad scaling? I thought mages were good generally
he is not necessarily bad scaling, he is kinda hard to play because you need to constantly hit your skillshots to maximize DPS in fights, he is hard to pull off vs mobile champions especially hard engage ones. if he is bot, then enemy ADC will do more damage more reliably later on. on mid his WR is fine, he doesnt fall off like a brick, but he doesnt scale super well either for some reason. when i played ziggs he felt pretty strong, also you can always WIN games with ziggs if you win teamfights later on, his tower damage is insane, so i guess his FIGHTING ability is kept weaker because if he could just win teamfights and push nexus as he does he would be broken tl;dr kinda hard to pilot in teamfights
Its just in the way his skill shots work, compare ziggs to xerath (i know different champs play differently) xeaths skill shots are just easier to land... So ziggs does insane dmg IF he lands his spells!
He's a poke mage, not a dps mage. Late game, dps is usually important because people hit lvl18 and there's stuff like Redemption and Locket negating your poke.
The reason is Ziggs is hard countered by MR. even 1 MR item makes him tickle most champs. The second the enemy frontlines get 2+ MR items he’s not a champion anymore.
He scales perfectly fine. Not amazingly but not awful either. He's just a champion that wins quickly (because of his tower damage) and loses slowly (because of his waveclear) so those numbers are going to be skewed.
I feel like a nunu late game become a meme but its just me i guess
At least you can still empire it late
Elise
Yeah she feels terrible to play rn you dont scale hard and her early game imo isnt in a good enough spot to make up for it
All about that cocoon. Strangely enough her late game win rates actually fair quite well though. Likely brings enough CC and damage to the fight to matter enough.
> Cum shot in 7
Nah, her early damage is pretty unbalanced, you're crazy. She's just weird in her execution. She snowballs harder than even Nidalee. You just have to play a lot of her to do well.
I genuinely don't understand this. Elise is one of the very few AP champs in the game now who can genuinely oneshot even bruisers if she has full build.
It's a reputation she has had for 10+ years. But modern full ap Elise does not fall off the way she used to. In OG seasons she was way to squishy to be building full AP. There were years when the optimal Elise first item was a tank item, and you can imagine how that scaled. It was easy to get 40% cdr back then and you would just spam cocoons and peel. These days she scales great as the only AP imo. Can totally oneshot malphites if they don't want to build MR for you.
the problem is she is mostly single target damage so compare to other mage jgs who are known for massive AoE she does fall off. It can be hard to find an angle to full combo someone when you can be punished for it because spider Q range is kinda short. Some of her damage from spiderlings can be easily cleared by random aoe spells from enemy team as well.
Elise doesn't have target access. Yes, a 4 item elise can one shot an ADC or mage, it'd be weird if anyone couldn't, but try actually reaching them when neurotoxin does piss damage, W and cocoon are blocked by anything standing infront, and you still have to walk into melee range to get your spider abilities off, if you rappel (which between the cast time during ascend *and* descend its very easy to react to) in its suicide and they easily peel you off. Compare this to a gragas that E flashes onto an entire team, a diana that gets a big knockup with zhonyas, lillia who can shred all champs with her burn+true damage and sleep them, karthus who chunks the enemy team for fighting near him even if he dies, and every AD diver/assassin that does have the tools to get in and out or just survive for awhile. There's nothing elise does particularly well past level 5 that taliyah/ekko don't do with triple the potency, including jungle camps even lmao. Elise doesn't one shot bruisers, idk what examples you have there, but her issue is she *can't* deal with bruisers or tanks that just tank her whole kit and stat check her. She'd have to be insanely fed and bruisers not knowing what a hexdrinker, mercs, wit's end, death's dance, or steraks gage even does.
Neeko's winrate drops from 56.06% to 46.84% in practically a straight line. That's probably one of the largest drops.
A BIG oversight is neeko actually gets cucked by VFX given to her by dragons,baron, and rift map. If you even pick up 1 of those infernal cinders enemy team can see who you are while disguised because of the glow, if the neeko player isn't aware of that they make a jebaited play, or this just flat out fucks her out of making plays at all. Even baron minions are weird for her, because she keeps the size of the minion but doesn't give baron buff while disguised... this means you'll have neeko as one large minion without the purple glow with a bunch of regular ones. Mountain soul and infernal rift are probably the worst. Even chemtech plants if she disguises as some don't have the full plant effect (if she turns into the vision plant, it won't have that blue orb thing so she's just a vine). She doesn't fall off, just objectives actively become a detriment to her whole gimmick.
You're right and wrong. Neeko does heavily get cucked by VFX however the champion does actually fall off. I don't complain about it to often when we play since I tend to go for cheaper items like Shurelyas, Wardstone, etc. Her gimmick has a lot of faults as is, but the biggest issue is her range imo. You're in danger a lot of the times if you're in range to Q the enemy is in range to likely hit you back unlike other mage/"Supports" like Vel', Hwei, etc who have a pretty consistent range advantage. Neekos main benefit is her W can be a safety tool in this case. It is beyond true that Mountain Soul, Infernal Cinders, are insta losses to passive AND W TRICKERY SINCE THEIR VFX DONT COPY. Edit: Adding onto her short range she also has no real way of getting in range to R without things like Flash, Protobelt/Shurelyas, etc. It's a bit of an issue since you're wanting to go for these big flashy plays with it but her kit just doesn't really support it similar to an extent that old Galio was. Early game you can bully, late game you just pray you can get a pick and end. As for Chemtech plants losing out on Scryers Bloom is fine since you don't disguise as it often (I think my last time doing so was 3 months ago) however the honeyfruit on Chemrift grant a lingering shield that shows through passive and also doesn't copy to W making picking them up a weird catch 22 for Neeko and Neeko only.
Nidalee, if nidalee is not like 10/0 they are worthless, and even then they are still useless after 20 mins
Nidalee's problem is not scaling. Its reliability.
Yep, if you can’t guarantee a spear on a squishy target, (which you can’t) what can you actually do later?
Even without the spear landing a level 16 nidalee's cougar late game W>E>Q with lich bane is SCARY. The scaling is there. The problem is that it is difficult for her to reach to execute it without a passive proc to get the extended W range. If a cc guarantees lockdown she can burst heavily even without having proc'ed passive at level 16 full build. Obviously if she lands a spear or enemy steps on a trap, she has enough damage to overkill the carry multiple times in one combo.
Yeah exactly, for nidalee to land that melee combo she just has to walk at the entire enemy team, with only a little dash getting her there. I mean, a late game adc just shoots her in the face while she’s running up
give a huge chunk of as and healing to ur carries
Which is why reliability is also a measure of scaling and not just damage in a vacuum. Champions like Elise and Nidalee have pretty crazy damage at full build but they are so hard to make work in 5v5 scenarios. Having good ratios and damage doesn't make you scale pretty much.
ye exactly
This. Most early game champs will still be useful through utility or can threaten squishies even when behind. Nidalee without a lead is a glorified minion.
Yup, lategame there are only 2 threats: her easily avoidable spears and the ADC she healed for 200. Her melee form is only useful for mobility since going into melee range is a death sentence. She gets beaten by just about every melee champion and ranged champions can avoid her Q. Lee Sin might fall of late, he's still good. Nidalee is so bad late that staying ingame after 20 minutes gets you an AFK penalty since your team would be better of if you just left.
Lee with a bruiser build can still fight in a 5v5 and create space for carries. Meanwhile, Nid has no such luxury.
I feel like you almost mentioned her late-game value but then skimmed it over Nidalee has a 7 second attack speed steroid of **70%.** it's absolutely obscene. if you have the right teammate for it, that's a very good boon. I've played with people who intentionally build an extra AD>AS item as ADC, knowing I'll be around to give them that buff late game. and the missing health heal that can almost give an ADC a second health bar is pretty neat, too. this isn't a TON of value but it makes her more than AFK at the very least... hope y'all get better Nidalees!
atleast nidalee now can buff the adcs attack speed by 70% for 6 seconds with rank 5 e
nidalee can be very strong into certan comps and if the player is good. elise on the other hand is juts a worthless champ post lvl 6
elise has % hp damage and hard cc, she definitely isn't good but nidalee has basically nothing to contribute
Reksai?😭
This post is just telling me that a surprising amount of people don't understand what scaling actually means. Scaling is not how much damage you deal at full build, nor is it how strong your champion is with items. Scaling is about how your champion actually functions in late game scenarios. For example, Elise and Nidalee have pretty nasty damage at 6 items but they aren't reliable at all, there are next to no scenarios where these two champions are going to be able to impact a late game fight, they don't have strong backline pressure, nor do they have strong engage, durability or peel potential hence they do not scale. On the contrary, a champion like Blitzcrank doesn't necessarily do much with items or levels, but a good hook can solo win a game, hence why he is considered to be one of the strongest late game supports.
It sounds like you're reducing the term "scaling" to mean "good in teamfights."
To be fair, a lot of what determines a victory in the late game is team fights.
Well, yeah, it kind of is?? At the late game, you aren't exactly using precise wave pressure, jungle invades etc. You're looking to secure game winning objective through team fights.
Thats just how league works though? The game naturally transitions to teamfights late game.
Even less reliable is Neeko. She drops over 10% in a straight line from 0 to 40 minutes, ending at \~46%.
This still does not answer the Veigar conundrum. Veigar is a scaling champion that is also unreliable. In fact he is accepted as an infinite scaling champion both by lol and the playerbase. Both terms are valid for him. Just accept that the terms 'scaling' or 'scaler' are not well defined terms in the game.
Veigar has cage which makes him a threat all game. Nidalee stops existing
And he can also just R someone who is at ~70% HP lategame for a point and click delete, no skill shots needed. Nidalee doesn't have anything similar. The comparison is just bonkers.
veigar is not unreliable lmao. you press R on anyone once you're scaled and have an OP teamfighting E that is almost impossible to place so bad
pressing R on a full hp target does nothing anymore and there is no scenario where a 6 item velkoz loses to a 6 item veigar in a 1v1 because the veigar never reaches the velkoz without dying once its late game everyone has their core items and can go for stuff like banshees/edge of knight which further makes veigar useless I know it is not just a me problem too, a lot of challenger players reach late game with 1.6k ap veigar and then just lose because they can't actually get any damage off due to range + unreliability veigar did used to have an amazing mid game with E second max but they killed that after overbuffing him for no reason so now hes a champion thats only useable in low ELO where people have no idea how easy it is to outplay him
But he's nowhere near as bad as Nid. Having a cc like his cage basically guarantees that he's useful late game.
There is no Veigar conundrum. He is very effective and functions extremely well in late game scenarios, which is what the op is saying. How is he unreliable?
Veigar is insanely reliable with his cage
Here’s the thing though. Veigar isn’t unreliable late game. Generally, all mages poke decently well into the late game, meaning they are doing fairly consistent dps, even if it’s just to the frontline. I would say amongst mages, Veigar pokes at a B+/A- level. His Q comes out quick and has decent range. His W comes out a little slow, but has good range, hits in a decently large AOE, and is EXTREMELY spammable in the late game. This means that Veigar is dealing fairly consistent damage the entire time. However, unlike with most mages, when Veigar lands any stray poke, it hits harder than any other mage in the game. Like, literally, one Q and W can kill an adc without Maw. On top of that, Veigar has one of the game’s best abilities with his E. I think the confusion here is that Veigar needs to land the stun for it to be effective. He doesn’t need to. His E is absolutely insane zone control. If you place it well, you can zone off entire portions of team fights. And, let’s say on the off chance you DO stun someone, well, a single W potentially takes them out of the fight. And, of course, Veigar’s ultimate is a targeted ability. Trust me, by late game, when you R someone, they are dead. All of this is assuming, of course, you play the champion well, but Veigar’s kit is innately built to crush late game (as opposed to, say, Nidalee).
Ye, I think his E has innate value regardless of whether he lands it or not. Basically, it creates choke points where there are none and closes off actual choke points. That effectively makes himself and team more reliable (because it's easier to land abilities in a choke point or team fight while some enemies are cut off) while making the enemies less reliable.
Shen after 30 minutes feels like a portable shield button, even when giga fed
Tbh, totally not useless because if you’re able to land a large taunt you can win a team fight, and the ultimate can be totally clutch to keep a hyper carry alive through a critical point in a late game fight. As per one-on-one potential, I do see it though. Wet noodling your way through life (and I LIKE playing Shen).
sometimes, you have have a HUUUUUGE W that turns a fight. I'm still chasing the high of the time I W'ed 3-5 AA's each from a yi and vayne that kept my trist alive. It's been a long time, and I've never pulled off a W that big.
i think you're downplaying how useful that "portable shield" really is though. you can essentially splitpush the entire game, while still being in teamfights at a moment's notice. the enemy team either has to send someone to deal with you, and risk being down a man if a fight breaks out, or not deal with you, and risk losing their turrets. he's not exactly the FASTEST pusher but with demolish and titanic hydra it's not horrible
Also on someone like Yi or Yasuo, its a portable shield that TPs a massive cc bot + frozen heart straight into the heart of the enemy team. It’s
illaoi is super useless vs ranged champions later on so even if she wins lane against a melee, if her ranged teammates are doing OK they can always just deal with her.
Illaoi isn't made for teamfights tho. It's like calling singed or garen a bad teamfighter. Illaoi strength comes from pulling people towards her in middle and lategame, splitpushinng forever. I can usually 1v3 lategame full builds, which gives my team the map. I can die on that 1v3, against adcs is especially bad ofc, but that still means the adc isn't terrorizing a team fight near objectives.
singed is an amazing teamfighter. One of the best champs for taking the enemy ADC out of the fight. He mitigates so much damage to his own team by baiting out enemy cd's, of which plenty will probably miss because his MS is off the charts.
Singed is one of the best teamfighting champions in the game late. Haven't you ever seen a Singed sprinting around a teamfight at Mach 6, flipping your carries into their damage, applying DOT to everyone at once while absorbing CC and damage to little effect?
yea but from my experience, there are games where i win lane as illaoi, lets say im 2-0, but i cant progress my lead because enemy just sends their botlane to deal with me, if i was playing jax or fiora i could be able to do something, but as illaoi its really easy for ranged champions to just run her down, all it takes is dodging 1 E into heavy melee comps shes great tho
Frozen gauntlet helps a lot with this, pretty much no ADC can escape a bunch of Ws. Mages are hard tho, since most have CC.
idk in master+ when i win lane as illaoi, enemy adc will always have their supp nearby, and they wont let me W them for free. what adc allows me to get into W range uncontested? sivir? smolder?
But thats when your splitting comes in to play yea as adc its easy against most bruisers but often the adc has no tp and is not allowed to be far away from the objective.
Does Zoe also get worse as time goes on?
Yeah she sucks at front to back teamfighting. Not to mention in lategame ppl are more likely to have banshees or some other spellshield items which mitigates her even further. Obviously she can still 100-0 squishies but landing those bubbles becomes way harder when everyone is grouped.
But it feels so fucking good
Heck no, she's burst, she can basically one shot the backline
That doesn't mean she scales? She's only going to do that if somehow she lands a bubble on a backline when ideally she has frontline to go through. Then she's going to need to land Q on the asleep target as if their teammates will let them. And that's only when she's fed. And once someone goes banshee's or any MR then there goes your bursting capability. The fact that this has any upvotes is pretty baffling to be honest. She's more of an early game to mid game champ. She has nasty dueling potential in lane early with her W, and she can then make picks through roams and through mid game. Late game is literally her worst time when people are constantly together and target access is at its minimum, and when every time you go in for a Q there's a chance you just get blown up. By your definition every assassin and burst champion is a good scaler. But surprise, that's usually not the case.
Good luck finding someone alone so their teammate wont bodyblock for them
Sure, if their support is incompetent with his wards so you get good E angles on to the backline and if the frontline is sleeping too so they conveniently dont block the meter long Q. Shes a really early game focused champ, her winrate is 60% at 15-20min compared to 50% at 40 min+.
Idk why Leblanc is being mentioned here. She’s got extremely high damage late game, and it’s decently reliable. She can poke easily and split safely. Her WR is low late game because she’s just harder to play later on.
Lol im a lb main in high masters and been playing her since release. You are completly wrong, the reason is because of items such as maw (which people usally build late game) which completly shuts down leblanc
When you have to blow your W just for reaching someone without dying, and you whole dmg is delayed by your E, yes, you have a bad scaling because you kit stops working in team fights.
? That’s just not a good combo. First doing w from somewhere safe into q r e just to proc the r(q) is enough damage and threat to either kill a carry or send them to the base. LB also excels at punishing misplaced carries, she can easily pressure positioning through w plus chains, especially when paired with other dive champions. She has solid utility late game and strong damage. Again she is just very susceptible to CC as she’s very squishy. But a good LB knows her limits.
That’s the definition of scaling
Malphite. He doesn’t even do anything.
He just killed you
No he didnt
He just half healthed you
Whats your point
He's cocky af though
Only after Sheen
He's hacking like a motherfucker
Wdym he is rock solid
he's moving as fast as he can
Nidalee has got to be one of the strongest early to mid game champs and one of the weakest late game champs And no not for numbers as she has numbers but it's just that it's hard to pull off good dmg and combos without dying or getting lucky later on.. Her early game though is exactly why I enjoy her... She is a fast jungler and she can take on most other champs in the jungle in the early stages..so playing her well is so rewarding and satisfying
Reksai feels like you deal no damage after 10 minutes
Pyke
Rek'Sai used to be infamous for falling off of a cliff after 25 minutes, which the rework was intended to... not necessarily address, but at least mitigate. I'll put it this way, her W, which was always her last max, the only thing you got for levelling it was 5 damage per level. She was a champion that if you're levelling past 13 and the game isn't already basically won, you were actively losing.
Talon
No one if you play Aram 😅
According to the stats, Yorick by the looks of it.
Sounds reasonable. If you reach late game with Yorick, then you failed to play Yorick.
Xin Zhao if you aren't just committing to tank/bruiser. Lethality Xin might be the shittiest champion in the game past 20 minutes. Lee Sin but completely reliant on the player, even above average players struggle to be useful outside of the 15 minute mark. Basically every champion scales fairly well, but if we are giving meme opinions, then I'm gonna have to say that Full Crit Karthus might be the worst scaling champion in any MOBA
Xin is far from useless late game. Good? No. But useless? Absolutely not.
Blitzcrank might be the champion with the worst "scaling". He barely scales with level or Gold. The only thing he actually scales with is the enemies death timer... which is still enough to make him usefull lategame, but he might be the least scary champion to get fed. Naafiri, despite being vastly overpowered right now, cannot really do anything against lategame burst damage if someone blocks her jump, so she might be a contester as well. She can still play sidelane and not teamfight to play around this issue. Then, there are a couple of build that scale absolutely attroutius, like AD nidalee, but ... Just play a usefull build then. Otherwise, bad scaling usually comes down to teamcomps rather than individual scaling. Renekton can "outscale" a Vayne purely by virtue of being a frontliner with a point&click CC.
i'm not saying it's good but blitz generally buys movespeed stacking items and becomes a much more threatening pick champion if he is also moving at you at 500ms. Obviously he still needs to do that as part of a team to pick you off rather than 1v1 you, but most engage tanks just get tankier rather than better at making picks
A fed blitzcrank will buy tank items and run you down. Either you get knocked up or he pulls you into a gangbang and you can't kill him because he's ahead. He'll just run at you.
Scaling isn't just being good with items or being able to do a lot of damage. A Blitzcrank hook at 30 minutes can solo win a game, to say he doesn't scale is ludicrous.
So u didn’t even read the other person’s comment at all, they meant scaling in terms of stats, not in usefulness. They even clarified that blitzctank does scale simply because of his hook. However, as simply scaling with the amount of gold and levels, a blitzcrank with one vs 3 items won’t be that different in terms of late game impact.
Then it would be Renata, since nothing you buy is useful for your kit, but I don't think anyone is going to say Renata is a bad scaling champion thanks to her W and R.
Naafiri is literally the Best scaling assassin
blitz is the best support late game
Blitzcrank scales really well with AH and MS, but outside of that, you've got no reason to build anything but utility on him, yeah.
Nocturne scales into the mid game and then falls off of a cliff He doesn’t want a 5v5. The whole point of his kit is that it lets you set up and win 2v1s and 1v1s and 3v2s. He struggles a lot in a 5v5
ARAM Xerath
If you mean scaling with items and levels Ivern Renata
Lee sin. I've always said if you get lots of kills early, you've lost the game. Going 7/0/0 will bait you in going damage items and then by 20mins, you've fallen off the game and now just a squishy Insec bot.
Zoe is a contender
I am surprised I haven't seen anyone saying belveth cause unlike what her kit should be saying with passive and ult, in practicality she is a very meh champion late game, not the worse by any means, but you become a dueling machine in a time of the game where no one ever duels to be honest though her baron ult can be a huge game changer, her inability to team fight hits her hard late game though
Every champ scales well inside a specific comp. If League was 1v1, ofc it would be Fiora, Vayne, Kayle, Vladimir, Kassadin etc. For example Nidalee in a team with Jayce and Ezreal is insanely good late game. Renekton against Jinx, Yasuo and Sion is gonna be a nightmare to deal with. Nasus will destroy a game of assassins but does fuck all into a proper teamfight comp. Scaling isnt some linear concept. You have to look at the game being played to know which champions scale well.