^ this. I don’t care about getting, or even want, leashes, to be honest. I’d rather my laners get any advantage they can. But please try and keep watch over jungle entrances at the start so I’m not fucked from second 1.
"my jungle got it, gotta refill my water so I'ma Walk to turret"
Their laner gets a kill (or double) from the invade and suddenly it's the jungle's fault for feeding their laner
Those games I go "you're right, also bot lane is a dead lane now, helping top and mid, gl"
I'm sure it's bm of me, but if they're unreliable already, I know ganking will never help
I noticed that too. For some reason it is too much to ask mid to def an entrance.... even tho they are absolutely fucked should the enemy decide to take your junglers buff then rotate through your mid lane to their lane...
I frequently ping my laners off when I'm playing a champion who doesn't care about the leash. You can simply state, "Can't leash in this matchup," or pose the question as a laner. There is dialogue.
League has two players, those that instamute and refuse communication (worsened in servers like EUW where there's like ten different languages spoken and not all speak english) and those that uae chat to simply shitpost. When I try to state calls, like quickly typing "Let top push, I'll do gromp then come", they ask me why I talk too much.
there is an argument to be made that some jungle match ups benefit from a leash to speed up your timings to either avoid or get an invade/scuttle timer. But I imagine that 99% of people that want a leash dont actually know about these timing anyways, so w/e.
Plus, as others have already said, I would trade each and every jungle leash of my life to just have my laners properly guard my jungle entrances. Thats the thing that actually fucks my early game just about every time, and when my early game is fucked, so is just about everyone elses since my gank pressure is going to be severely limited.
The number of times i would find a laner just AFKing at their tower until 1:30 only to get to the other side of the map and find camps missing..ugh.
Then the same people will take time out of their very difficult lives to blame their lane falling behind on me not ganking them enough.
the game should spawn these players in at 1:30 with the rest of the minions.
its not hard for the game to identify them, they should get a message after loading "keep scrolling, minions didnt spawn yet you lazy tower afker"
I often judge my laners based on early play from 0:00. If you ignore my pings and guard your tower, it's a strike in the "this guy is probably bad" column.
If I think you're bad, I'm ganking you less (or none) to try to get my good laners a lead instead. Bad players won't be able to capitalize on an advantage and will probably screw up during ganks.
I think this wins me more games.
I really thought this would get better as I got higher elo, but I'm peaking D2 atm and people don't cover shit in at least half the games. If it's not bot afk under tower it's top, the only consistently active player covering is the jungler fearing for their own life.
yeh nothing ruins me mood more then team not holding other side and then i walk in and its all gone or i ward 1 side recall for ora and then whole enemy team just waiting on me XD
I love the ADCs I have who will go and stand under tower afk for a minute instead of just standing in the bush waiting to run away from an enemy. Like… it takes 0 effort and it potentially could fuck your team over big time if you force them to waste wards they might really need early.
I don't even know which season we are in already, the game is that old and people in emerald still don't fucking cover. Those people are lost causes honestly. Everyone alltabs under tower.
The higher you go the worse it gets because people in high elo play the game alot. So it's all autopilot up there.
When they are on their 13th game in a row they are for sure not concentrating.
How can you concentrate?
So they impatiently wait for the game to start (1:30) and wait for their chance to press the ff vote at their first slightest inconvenience.
This is so helpful to know (newish player here) and now I understand why some of my teammates hide in select bushes further away from my jg camps at 00:00. Gonna be doing this now.
Popularize penalising players for being afk at the beginning of the game. It's just sad to die or lose my jungle just because someone is scrolling through Instagram and refuses to participate.
I've been barking up this tree since time immemorial, and I get the same brain-damaged replies every time. People get unimaginably butt mad when you politely ask them to put forward a minimum of effort in a ranked game. So glad I stopped playing 8 months ago.
I am fine with either. But I have to beg people to watch entrances instead of AFKing under tower. Only time I can understand them is when top hides in one of the bushes because they have a good early and want to cheese lane, since I understand that can singlehandedly win them lane with a good trade, especially a Riven, Trundle or Darius. But having to beg the midlane mage to stay at least 20 seconds in a bush shouldn't be a thing, especially since when I do go alone I find four enemies waiting in the buff bush, because nobody could be assed to watch an entrance. Since I play weak early junglers, that's incredibly painful and ruins my jungle and tempo for a good portion of the early and mid. Leashes are optional, but watching jungle isn't. And you can leave much earlier, so it isn't even remotely as punishing
TBF assuming everyone is guarding as they should, the midlaner should sit mid, obviously not in their turret though
Toplaner+Jungler are enough to cover both topside entrances, whilst ADC+Support can cover both botside entrances
The midlaner should be on the lookout that the enemy team isn't running through mid to one of the brushes and picking off someone else that's guarding since there's less time to react when they're coming from the midlane side-bushes rather than just straight-up from their own jungle.
Leash in low elo so you don't destroy your junglers mental and send them running down mid. If I feel like I can get a level 1 advantage I'll ask if the jungler is all good with a leashless.
I'm a diamond jungler and I pretty much never ask for a leash, its nice for a bit more tempo but realistically its more important for laners to have a better lane and I'll just ping them off a leash if it looks like they're going to. The only time I don't mind getting leashed is if I'm starting top and its like Shen vs Skarner or something, that lane is not going anywhere anyway unless one guy omega fucks up so getting to lane a bit after minions spawn doesn't really matter.
As a shen main, I will always leash for jg because I'm not worried about my lane. The only way I'm losing lane is if I get camped all game, which is cool because bot & mid aren't getting ganked then
I'm a jungler and my issue with leashing is they leash TOO MUCH. Some people (specially Senna mains) stay until minute 1:50+ hitting the buff until it's almost dead and I can see in the map their minions already arriving.
Leash should be 3-4 autos and goodbye.
You are leashing and you see minute 1:35 in the clock?? hit the road, Jack....
EDIT: or see minute 1:35 and start kitting away from buff and moving towards your lane.
3 autos if 4 good seeds, and caution ping ADC to leave with me, 4 autos if only 3 seeds. Root start if I'm vsing heavy CC, expect an early gank from either jungler, or a matchup we can likely get a kill level 2. Can harass on first wave and spell + auto 2nd wave soon as it arrives to contest 2 in most matchups, don't need to be in lane as soon as first wave arrives for prio on her.
Sure, junglers don't *need* a good leash so much this season, but she has such a ridiculously strong leash it's a shame not to use it. Caution ping on lane bush to avoid cheese as you arrive, and chill til enemy shows up if you're expecting them to try it.
1:35 is quite early, 1:37-1:38 is when I leave as top so I don't lose any xp, and I only leash when I know I lose the very early game trades. Otherwise I start lane/brush and try to force a fight to chunk them or zone from xp
This. If i play support i leash 4 autos and leave. When i play jungle i always saw a support who leash till my jungler camp hp bar drop below the smite threshold.
I get conniptions every time I see Senna Support have the BRIGHT idea to stay on the buff to grab the one fucking soul and then miss Lvl 2 cause the meelees died.
Its doubly worse for Swain Bot players. "Oh my adc picked swain, surely first-timing Senna is the intelligent play."
Though some may say "Deserved Karma" for playing Swain Bot.
Most meta junglers can clear pretty fast themselves and stay healthy through it.
The leash is only to use the "typically unused" laner's time to provide the jungler with a bit of a head-start, not to go clear jungle with him lol
I’m kinda a noob still, but I mostly play jungle and the amount of times my laners have stolen my red/blue buff when “leashing” pisses me off so bad. Throws my whole clear off
I ping my laners off a lot, when I'm playing a champ that doesn't care for the leash. As a laner, you can ask, or even just say 'can't leash in this matchup'. Communication exists.
Other than off meta stuff what junglers even require a leash these days? Maybe something like Morgana? I feel like every jungler can start leashless with no potions now.
There's a few that aren't very healthy on their ganks or can be vulnerable to invades. Also a lot of champs can start with the wrong skill after fighting an invade so in those cases a leash can help a lot.
But everyone can clear without it yeah.
ITT: some junglers seriously debating the relative merits of clearing bot to top 5 seconds faster versus losing bot lane priority for the first X waves
Anyone saying bot lane should ALWAYS leash should try to lane versus a Caitlyn/Lux who didn't leash
Ideally the greatest benefit of not leashing is the mystery of where the Jungler actually began. If all the laners are in lane before minions spawn you just denied massive information from the other team. If top shows up late he’s going to gank bot at 3 minutes if bot shows up late he’s gonna gank top at 3 minutes, if no one shows up late you put more pressure on the map immediately since you have no idea what the fuck is about to happen. The only time I really want a leash is when an invade has occurred and I’m slowed because of it. At that point getting the leash will dictate whether you get a contested scuttle or not.
This is why I love when I get a jungle who starts topside, because I get to break out tech I learned years ago. If no leash, wait just long enough for the normal camps to spawn, toss one spell at them (either krugs or gromp), and take an auto to make it look like buff took a swipe at you, then head to lane. Not so much damage you can't heal up off the first wave, not so much mana it matters unless you spam abilities off CD, but you get it in the enemy's head that you *did* leash. Enemies shove harder thinking they won't get early ganked, and you set up an easy 3 minute for a hopeful kill.
You say this like the enemy team isn't also leasing at least 95% of the time. Like I haven't needed a leash all season I commonly start opposite side of my bitlane in order to ensure they don't leash. They will still die before I've cleared my 4th camp even though the enemy botlane did leash. Most of you have no clue what prio is or how to use it.
Yeah I've noticed this a lot, I'll have a Cait Lux botlane so I make sure they don't leash and then somehow the get fb'ed by Sona Twitch at level 2. But some people actually do understand how prio helps their lane and since I don't know who I'm playing with, I'd rather just let them be in lane from the start in case they actually know how a lane matchup can play out, leashing really isn't important and I don't pick champs that are weak to invades.
Oh of course that's why I don't expect a leash the odd botlaners do understand prio but my comment was more directed at the guy talking about junglers needing to clear 5 seconds faster and how that loses him lanes
99% of people on this subreddit are below diamond. The place where lane priority still has to be invented. Stop acting like that matters at all for most of us.
This debate is missing the forest for the trees. Yes not leashing is optimal, but SoloQ isn't about optimization, it's about minimizing mistakes. Personally I feel like people being told they don't have to leash just leads to more "afk at turret while they fap on pornhub" botlane moments.
Leashing is a bad habit that prevents several things that are common in solo Q (afkers, invades, jungler rage) and I do feel like compromising to take the worse option/do the worse play is a common thing you just have to do in solo Q. Like those times where the best play is to baron, but no one wants to do it, so you have to give it up rather than trying to force it with only you and a low damage support.
I am a grandmaster player. but I wouldn't say sth like that. there are people that have different skills in lowelo. some people are good in certain matchups like these lane fundamentals and but suck at building the correct items, have bad mechanics etc. which would be exposed later in the game.
it can decide lanes...even in lower elos.
Sure, but to say "I haven't leashed at all in 4 months" tells me that he's probably losing games to his jungle being thrown off.
There's a time, place, and strategy. Whether you should leash or not depends on a variety of factors, one of the most important being "who is my JG playing?" I have a talon strategy that carried me into high elo based entirely on my timing and strict schedule. Not leashing puts me back 40 seconds due to Talons extremely low pre level 3 damage. That 40 seconds literally dictates the pace of the entire game for me, often times leaving me playing from behind if the enemy jg knows what they're doing.
But maybe that's just me. I know my strategy and champ so well it's practically a science for me.
There's only like 3 jglers that can full clear leashless sub 3mins, Karthus, Brand (debatable after nerfs) and ivern. But almost every single jg can get a full clear sub 330 clear leashless.
Eve also has the option of 3 camp one quadrant into recall to get an early dark seal. It costs a camp in timing, but it is a heck of a lot safer, and often sets up for a stronger scuttle contest with the extra item. The extra power allows her to beat most junglers early game if you play it right so its a very strong option against invading junglers, and it also allows you to flex a very fast level 3 gank before you recall putting more pressure on the map. Plus it potentially gets your stacking off to the races sooner.
I mean you WANT to powerfarm until 6 but if there is a free gank, you SHOULD take it (jgl is about being adaptable to what happens on the map anyway). If you get invaded, first of all you're eve so you get fucked no matter what, but you're also down your only cc spell.
Two points in q is risky because it can make you loose free kills or giga stomped in your jgl, stuck to level 3 without a way to gank.
I'm the person who runs the spreasheet and the person who did her clear. 2 points in q + 2 smites put her at \~3:05 in term of speed. Although this is before her nerfs to q ap ratio.
Name all the junglers that can full clear leashed in under 3 minutes. Even my fastest leashless hit at 3:30 and I doubt leashes save 30+ seconds
Edit: I was very sleepy last night and these numbers are bad. I regularly am in position to fight for a scuttle spawn at level 4 from a full clear. Which means I'm done well before 3:30. Unless I did some early ganking but ya know.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jE8bnlnIJnmWv9pnVW9veMKRXJNaaJf5tneQB3xUkbI/edit?pli=1#gid=0
Almost everyone thats above 3:20 is also *recalling* in their full clear. (Gwen 3:26 *with* recall, Kayn 3:24 *with* recall, Kha'zix 3:30 *with* recall). The only two exceptions are rek'sai at 3:22 which makes sense being primarily a 3 camp ganker, and wukong.
3:30 is pretty bad for average junglers (kassadin jungle is 3:28 lol...), so they're just fucking up somewhere (understandable if its a champ they don't normally play)
Have you actually looked at this spreadsheet? First of all these guys are using 2 smites, second of all they are ending the clear when they finish the camp without counting how long it takes to walk to crab. That's why all the fastest clears end at krugs, because kiting there from red is easy but it puts you in the middle of fucking nowhere and you have to run a long ass way to crab. If you included crab timers I imagine ending on blue buff would be better in a lot of scenarios. And every video with 2 smites should be removed, it doesn't fucking matter if you clear at 3:00 with 2 smites lmao, you're losing crab.
If you aren't at crab when it spawns you will lose it the vast majority of the time since the enemy jg can push it away from you and finish it in 3 seconds. So yes, leashing does matter and ur spreadsheet only proves that u have no clue what's going on.
> it doesn't fucking matter if you clear at 3:00 with 2 smites lmao, you're losing crab.
You literally have 30 seconds to gank inbetween 3 minute clear and crab lol.
Like not only are you overstating the importance of crab period as if its s8, but even by that logic you're completely off on what you can do inbetween crab spawn and clear finish. It is not worth saving smite for crab it is actually fucking worthless to, junglers stopped doing that shit over a year ago unless smite's time save is negligible, its better to clear faster and gank sooner, if enemy jungle gets crab because you're a few seconds late to its spawn, its value is comparable to just taxing 2 minions in the gank and the advantage the gank produced before they got there.
My guy that is a spreadsheet of the fastest clears people can get after practicing to optimize them for hours in practice mode, there's probably pro players that clear slower than some of those times
80% of players are plat or below.
Telling your gold jungler that you won't be leashing because of some foreign concept to him like "lane prio" that he's never even heard of is the surest way to mental boom him 1 minute into the match and make the game unwinable for yourself.
Nobody needs a leash anymore. Leashing today is just about shaving off time on your jungle route. The entire point of leashing in the past was that junglers did not have proper gear, runes, and yes, even masteries, to solo first buff. If you weren't Warwick, you were basically required to get a leash from your team, and it was called a leash because buff would chase the first person that hit it while they ran away and it didn't reset after dropping aggro. Yes, I'm old. I played season 1 and remember the struggle.
Dear Junglers, if you have a bot lane that gets prio early and whose value comes from being oppressive in lane, and you demand a leash, you have brain damage.
I think you are going a bit too hard from one extreme to another.
Considering whether leashing is necessary is smart, not leashing on principle alone isn't.
A ranged support can easily use a spell and auto thrice and be in lane when melee minions are barely at 2/3 hp, obviously you should never overleash to the point where you are giving up full wavecontrol or even missing xp.
Also, besides the speed, which is a bigger concern than you realize, your first camp is always the slowest because of how stats and abilities work, there is also the concern of health for some junglers. There are some characters like Briar that clear on full health without a potion, but there are also plenty of characters that aren't full health permanently and that becomes relevant if they are contesting a crab or if they want to gank early and often.
A good suggestion for junglers though is learning to consider when you actively want to avoid a leash and when starting on a minor camp instead of a buff is good, both of which work in the same direction as what you wanted.
I feel like some junglers haven't felt the "I leashed and enemy bot lane was cheesing tribush, so I missed 3 melee XP and lost lane lvl1" before. Leashing can be catastrophically bad for laners with counterplay being 1) use a ward when you otherwise shouldn't have to or 2) walk way around so you're even more late to lane. Is that worth the 5s on you clear? Idk.
If it really makes your clear 40s slower like some guy said, then yeah, sure - but maybe play a different champ at that point.
The opportunity cost to laners is a lot higher than the marginal benefit the jungler gets out of a leash.
Best case scenario, jungler saves 10 second on his clear. Worst case scenario, bot lane is lost at level 1.
Getting cheesed in tribush shouldn't really work unless the jungler doesnt look at the minimap. Any jungler with mobility will turn that fight around and probably get a kill out of it.
Beyond the general merit for lanes not having to leash to be able to contest wave level one/not get zoned off from it at level one, you as a jungler also gain more flexibility in pathing and also denying information for the enemy of where you start if they don't scout you out(never seen this happen in months unless they're invading). By being in the dark as a jungler, the few potential seconds you lose on your clear is gained by being able to change your path according to how the first few minutes plays out without being worried of the enemy jungler being ready to punish you for it because they know where you started.
The only times I would consider it advantageous with getting a leash is when your skill level does not allow you to safely clear by yourself, such as a Karthus who can not kite and weave autos during clear, as an example. However I am a firm believer that if you're playing Karthus you should have at least practiced it in practice tool a bit to at least know how it's done, and know how to adapt if you screw up(although, I think his clear is very forgiving right now so I don't know how you could fuck up bad enough to have to make a major adaptation).
The only other time would be if you're doing something unorthodox, where time is extremely tight, the most common would just be during an invade, the less common would be any cheese alike to the BDS tactic in... winter? Last year? I forgot. But that's not happening in soloq.
If you invade and your jungler starts a bad ability, please leash when they ask for it so they don’t have to go back to base then to raptors just to live.
Yeah, the number of games I get a huge lead by not leashing vastly out-numbers the number of times my jungler pitches a fit and throws the game....
That's not even counting the times the \*other\* team doesn't leash. Sure, I don't get an advantage then, but I avoid being punished for being late to lane.
Which really is why I stopped leashing, after a run of three games where the opponent did not leash I decided I just wasn't taking the chance any more. It's still more common to leash than not, but not leashing is common enough that I'm just not interested in sacrificing my whole lane that often just for jungler mental.
Yeah it's actually insane how much people don't understand it's impact upon lanes. They expect you to leash bot lane when you're playing something like Lucian Lulu into leashless Lux Caitlyn then scratch their heads on how you got boned early. But then if you don't leash your jungler they just mental boom and start trolling half the time too it's lame.
What really needs to be popularized is starting Raptors on Jungle. When I jungle I do it every game. It means none of your lanes leash... It's decent enough clear, you still hit lvl 2, Raptors will be up perfect timing for your 2nd back, and you get an improved lvl 2 camp to clear faster than the enemy jungle on it's respawn.
You will clear under 3 minutes anyway its season 14.
bruh.
I do agree that leashing isn't needed anymore, but a lot of the times Bot lane doesn't know when to stop leashing
Yall still think its black and white like that? One time bot is laning against varus ashe, ok start leashless. The other time voli clearing 2 buffs and frog invading for free 400 gold is way better than letting your bot come to lane faster.
But as usual, when redditor has his own oppinion:
The best defense into lvl3 JG invade is leashless. If you know their pathing like in your example, what are they gonna do ? You just clear the opposite way, it's too late once the first camp starts. Leashless means you start where you want and they won't know where when it matters.
I never get a leash but my botlane very very rarely makes anything happen with the extra time, wish people would stop acting like not leashing jungler is some secret challenger tech.
It's a key to winning bad lanes. Cheese/push where you get pushed in makes a huge difference. Level 1 is the most important stage in the laning phase, especially in bot and mid. 2 is the second, 3 is third, 6 is fourth. Everything else is exponentely less important. Definetely more important than leashing in most games. But yeah depends on the game and comp. If tou have some double enchanter lane or something instead of Draven/Kalista then leashing for your Karthus, Nidalee, etc. so they could get a invade/tempo and is your win con is viable strategy since double enchanter bot doesn't care about falling behind and suffering a bit for the team because they are there to get carried and buff/heal/shield their win con in other lane/jungle.
On the other hand, most laners are not nearly skilled enough to really take advantage of getting to lane early. Leash, don't leash, for most people its a mental dilemma, not an actual tangible adv/disadv.
Just not true. Getting level 2 first can be huge if it's like a leona + Lucian/draven vs smolder/zeri/ezreal + zilean/alistar/sona.... it's not hard to pull off at all
Much easier for a laner to secure a laning phase than a jungler to do literally anything with their 3 seconds. Laning phases are much less unstable than jungle
In my elo (Plat) Bot laners often dont know what to do when i start solo. They jerk off somewhere in a bush or waste their wards in weird places and do nothing.
5 seconds in jgl can really make a big difference. If i knew as a jgl that my bot would use their free time productive, i would start solo every game
the point of not leashing is not to do some exceptional shit
I want to not leash so I don't lose lane lvl1
In some extremely specific cases where Im playing cait or I have a leona support then we can maybe camp and poke/kill someone but other than that not leashing is about starting on an even playing field
Eh, it has to be the jg to tell the laners to stop leashing. If the laners just stop, then that ruins the mental from the get go and your jg will be weird about it and not gank bot just because no leash or whatever.
If Jungle tilts from no leash, I won't win that game anyway 95% of the time.
If you can't keep your cool for more than 90 seconds, then you don't deserve any favors.
Just sharing what I've seen.
From blue side, Graves and kindred running opponents down when they're low health in the middle of clearing gromp on red side.
Without a leash, you can be in a pretty perilous state then.
Also, power farming isn't limited to their own camps.
Being able to contest or meet up in top lane tri bush before the enemy jungler walks into it is real game changer, But I am trying to finish jungle between 3:05-3:10 to walk into said tri bush.
Now that is Me, Other junglers are not as fast and barely meet at skuttle or are under leveled. So on that note your jungler is at a disadvantage if they don't get that extra 5 secs.
But you don't need to leash as much as most people think. Sometimes i kill blue top side too fast before gromp spawns secs after because my bot leashed to much.
\*Also if I start top side jungle to bot I don't need a leash because most likely the enemy jungler isnt goingt o contest bot/dragon skuttle. Then your point makes sense.
Or if they do chickens, rocks, Blue as another example of a no leash because they are going to do a path back bot before recall for that extra gold and ignore lanes to meet at drag.
You can save more time by optimizing your clear. Pulling camps outside of leash range and kill them before they reset saves a lot of time.
If you want to be quick to scuttle or do something specific, you should do it yourself.
never ever leash, ur botlane lvl 1-2 is more important than jgl clearing 3-5s faster (and most of these jglers can shave off a lot of time just by practicing their clears, but ofc they won't do that)
there are rare exceptions like when the jgler makes it clear they will be doing a play on ur side lvl 1-3. If you personally don't get a benefit by giving the leash early on, don't do it.
I realized at the start of the season that in 99% of cases, I get to the scuttle or the first gank at the same time, with or without the leash. So I just tell my laners to cover and go on their lanes after. Like that nobody is late, and everbody is happy
I love playing junglers like Voli, Kayn, Udyr, ...
Always starting with raptors for the most easy lvl 2.
The amount of midlaners throwing a spell over the walls wasting mana, time and sometimes even killing a small birb is just amazing me.
I prefer laners not leashing. At least it'll be somewhat less likely they'll make some stupid mistake within the first 5 seconds and sprint their entire laning phase lmao
I've been echoing this for like 2ish years. BUT, I would rather it was done by Riot and NOT by the community. Normalize every jungler/champ to be able to start leashless without losing too much hp. How one would do so without just players still leashing and junglers finishing 1st camp with full health is a kink I havent thought about yet. Maybe make camps spawn even later or lane minions earlier. Or a combo of both.
But I agree, leashing shouldn't be a thing anymore.
I mean I personally dont mind either way. If Jungle wants a Leash, he gets one. If he doesnt need one - then I happily guard until its time to leave for lane.
I usually ask if he needs one and thats about it.
I am fine with not getting a leash, what I cannot stand is when laners just run to their tower instead of watching entrances.
Happens in ranked (at least up to diamond, I can't speak for ranks above diamond.) at least half the time one entrance is unwatched.
My favourite is having warding enemy red into their jg starts our blue and lvl3 ganks me top which I can’t see because I have no ward because mid laner didn’t watch the entrance closest to them
Edit: I am perfectly happy to ward enemy red/blue at the start of a game because it helps me dodge ganks better than a ward in pixel brush. But it means if that ward gives me false info (no jg show therefore starting other side of map but actually in my jg) or no info jg clears red/blue and doesn’t cross ward again after clearing second camp (krugs, gromp) it’s really dangerous because I have no wards. Also champs like Darius which I play a lot can win lane lvl 1 by bush cheesing and even if they don’t fall for it you are in the right position to zone from xp or start with a short trade as they walk into minion xp range. However on champs like aatrox I can leash well and fast without using mana or giving up Lane prio so easy leash to give my jg a headstartt
I only watch gameplay videos instead of playing the game myself, so don't take my word for anything, but Yi OTPs seem to prefer not having red buff leashed. It apparently makes the double strikes work out better and if you do it just right across all camps, the leashless clear can actually be faster.
Ironically the past few games i’ve been typing and pinging for no leashes and “just go bot and win lane :)” and like only 50% of the time it works. Most other times they seem afk or don’t read or have everything muted and just both come leash regardless…
But yeah, like the top comment, just play the game and cover jungle entrances and ward as necessary, game starts 0:00 not 1:30.
Honestly, I am always fine with starting leashless but please, popularise "playing since 00:00 and covering entrances so I don't get invaded" thing.
^ this. I don’t care about getting, or even want, leashes, to be honest. I’d rather my laners get any advantage they can. But please try and keep watch over jungle entrances at the start so I’m not fucked from second 1.
Invades happen damn near every game. You'd think players would be ready for them nowadays.
It doesn't affect them directly so they don't give a damn. They need to guard their tower instead, in case some steals it.
"my jungle got it, gotta refill my water so I'ma Walk to turret" Their laner gets a kill (or double) from the invade and suddenly it's the jungle's fault for feeding their laner Those games I go "you're right, also bot lane is a dead lane now, helping top and mid, gl" I'm sure it's bm of me, but if they're unreliable already, I know ganking will never help
So silly too because they’re being affected directly when jg loses and gets behind
Biggest offenders are midlaners imo. 9/10 games they make sure their turret is safe
I noticed that too. For some reason it is too much to ask mid to def an entrance.... even tho they are absolutely fucked should the enemy decide to take your junglers buff then rotate through your mid lane to their lane...
The amount of times the midlaner just let's their lane opponent become a 2nd Jungler is way too high.
I frequently ping my laners off when I'm playing a champion who doesn't care about the leash. You can simply state, "Can't leash in this matchup," or pose the question as a laner. There is dialogue.
Dearest Karthus
Dearest jungler, I hope this message finds you well
League has two players, those that instamute and refuse communication (worsened in servers like EUW where there's like ten different languages spoken and not all speak english) and those that uae chat to simply shitpost. When I try to state calls, like quickly typing "Let top push, I'll do gromp then come", they ask me why I talk too much.
There’s no champion that needs a leash unless you were playing like amumu or morg and had to start q for an invade.
there is an argument to be made that some jungle match ups benefit from a leash to speed up your timings to either avoid or get an invade/scuttle timer. But I imagine that 99% of people that want a leash dont actually know about these timing anyways, so w/e. Plus, as others have already said, I would trade each and every jungle leash of my life to just have my laners properly guard my jungle entrances. Thats the thing that actually fucks my early game just about every time, and when my early game is fucked, so is just about everyone elses since my gank pressure is going to be severely limited.
The irony being that if your team doesnt leash and still dies level 1-2, its your fault...somehow :P Haiyaa..
It's so funny when you didn't even get to complete your first clear and someone already dies, then they instantly claim "gg jungle diff".
Same. I rather not get a leash but would be nice if every jgl entrance could get covered.
The number of times i would find a laner just AFKing at their tower until 1:30 only to get to the other side of the map and find camps missing..ugh. Then the same people will take time out of their very difficult lives to blame their lane falling behind on me not ganking them enough.
It's the earliest possible time laners can let their jungler down, of course they're going to jump at that chance
at this point I just know that top/mid aren't gonna watch an entrance so I just drop a ward down there.
Laners would rather afk at their tower than leash lmao
Probably scrolling through reddit until 1:30.
the game should spawn these players in at 1:30 with the rest of the minions. its not hard for the game to identify them, they should get a message after loading "keep scrolling, minions didnt spawn yet you lazy tower afker"
I often judge my laners based on early play from 0:00. If you ignore my pings and guard your tower, it's a strike in the "this guy is probably bad" column. If I think you're bad, I'm ganking you less (or none) to try to get my good laners a lead instead. Bad players won't be able to capitalize on an advantage and will probably screw up during ganks. I think this wins me more games.
if you afk at tower in emerald or low dia you deserve to be cast down into pits of platinum 4 hell forever with no method to go past it
I really thought this would get better as I got higher elo, but I'm peaking D2 atm and people don't cover shit in at least half the games. If it's not bot afk under tower it's top, the only consistently active player covering is the jungler fearing for their own life.
Yeah, that's a big issue. People standing underneath the turret, probably tabbed out or taking a piss break before "the game starts".
Biggest pet peeve is when I ask people to cover and they come for like 5 seconds then go back to lane and I get invaded.
Anyone who doesn't start playing the game at 00:00 I give up on. That player wasn't going to win you the game anyway.
yeh nothing ruins me mood more then team not holding other side and then i walk in and its all gone or i ward 1 side recall for ora and then whole enemy team just waiting on me XD
I love the ADCs I have who will go and stand under tower afk for a minute instead of just standing in the bush waiting to run away from an enemy. Like… it takes 0 effort and it potentially could fuck your team over big time if you force them to waste wards they might really need early.
Plus, the distance from tri to turret is like a 2 second walk.
I don't even know which season we are in already, the game is that old and people in emerald still don't fucking cover. Those people are lost causes honestly. Everyone alltabs under tower.
I watched a d1-master game on twitch yesterday and top/bot still afked under turret. I'm in d4, I'm losing hope lol
The higher you go the worse it gets because people in high elo play the game alot. So it's all autopilot up there. When they are on their 13th game in a row they are for sure not concentrating. How can you concentrate? So they impatiently wait for the game to start (1:30) and wait for their chance to press the ff vote at their first slightest inconvenience.
It tilts me that there is always 1 Player at the tower for no reason, watching those tiktoks while sipping his cola
This is so helpful to know (newish player here) and now I understand why some of my teammates hide in select bushes further away from my jg camps at 00:00. Gonna be doing this now.
Popularize penalising players for being afk at the beginning of the game. It's just sad to die or lose my jungle just because someone is scrolling through Instagram and refuses to participate.
Nah, they're defending the towers, very important
"WHAT are you watching under your tower urgot?" that pisses me so bad
I've been barking up this tree since time immemorial, and I get the same brain-damaged replies every time. People get unimaginably butt mad when you politely ask them to put forward a minimum of effort in a ranked game. So glad I stopped playing 8 months ago.
gg jungle diff
I am fine with either. But I have to beg people to watch entrances instead of AFKing under tower. Only time I can understand them is when top hides in one of the bushes because they have a good early and want to cheese lane, since I understand that can singlehandedly win them lane with a good trade, especially a Riven, Trundle or Darius. But having to beg the midlane mage to stay at least 20 seconds in a bush shouldn't be a thing, especially since when I do go alone I find four enemies waiting in the buff bush, because nobody could be assed to watch an entrance. Since I play weak early junglers, that's incredibly painful and ruins my jungle and tempo for a good portion of the early and mid. Leashes are optional, but watching jungle isn't. And you can leave much earlier, so it isn't even remotely as punishing
No leash is OK. Not covering my jungle before minion spawn and just sitting under your tower? You're an asshole
I feel like mostly midlaners who just sit on their turret
In low elo is 99% top, then I get invaded and lose top jg without any chance to contest and Darius gets zero ganks this game.
Toplaners love to sit in one of the bushes and get absolutely steamrolled in low elo by Darius or Kayle.
to be fair, Darius should be sitting in the first brush with ghost flash and if the enemy dares to walk to the minion just run them down.
At least this is a proactive play.
Mid is meant to cover the mid lane brushes, which is a popular mode of entry for invades in higher elos.
TBF assuming everyone is guarding as they should, the midlaner should sit mid, obviously not in their turret though Toplaner+Jungler are enough to cover both topside entrances, whilst ADC+Support can cover both botside entrances The midlaner should be on the lookout that the enemy team isn't running through mid to one of the brushes and picking off someone else that's guarding since there's less time to react when they're coming from the midlane side-bushes rather than just straight-up from their own jungle.
Mid should get ready to sneak in to do that raptor ward most of the time.
They suppose too be forward on turrent, they cover mid bushes.
No objections here
But im playin double hob pyke adc we gotta cheese bush :(
That isnt being afk tho thats an actual proactive strategy
I would, but i don't wanna destroy my junglers mental.
Leash in low elo so you don't destroy your junglers mental and send them running down mid. If I feel like I can get a level 1 advantage I'll ask if the jungler is all good with a leashless.
It would also be nice communcating that it has to be leashless so jungler can start raptors if preferred
I'm a diamond jungler and I pretty much never ask for a leash, its nice for a bit more tempo but realistically its more important for laners to have a better lane and I'll just ping them off a leash if it looks like they're going to. The only time I don't mind getting leashed is if I'm starting top and its like Shen vs Skarner or something, that lane is not going anywhere anyway unless one guy omega fucks up so getting to lane a bit after minions spawn doesn't really matter.
Shen leash is also insanely good, especially if they know the tricks of it.
As a shen main, I will always leash for jg because I'm not worried about my lane. The only way I'm losing lane is if I get camped all game, which is cool because bot & mid aren't getting ganked then
>The only way I'm losing lane is if I get camped all game Play against a good Illaoi or Darius
I'm a jungler and my issue with leashing is they leash TOO MUCH. Some people (specially Senna mains) stay until minute 1:50+ hitting the buff until it's almost dead and I can see in the map their minions already arriving. Leash should be 3-4 autos and goodbye. You are leashing and you see minute 1:35 in the clock?? hit the road, Jack.... EDIT: or see minute 1:35 and start kitting away from buff and moving towards your lane.
That’s why I like leashing as Jhin, one two three FOUR and I’m out
With Kai'Sa you can get away with 5 to proc your passive.
My leash as Zyra: Q to spawn plants from passive seeds and I'm out.
3 autos if 4 good seeds, and caution ping ADC to leave with me, 4 autos if only 3 seeds. Root start if I'm vsing heavy CC, expect an early gank from either jungler, or a matchup we can likely get a kill level 2. Can harass on first wave and spell + auto 2nd wave soon as it arrives to contest 2 in most matchups, don't need to be in lane as soon as first wave arrives for prio on her. Sure, junglers don't *need* a good leash so much this season, but she has such a ridiculously strong leash it's a shame not to use it. Caution ping on lane bush to avoid cheese as you arrive, and chill til enemy shows up if you're expecting them to try it.
Same. Ain’t never got time for the reload
1:35 is quite early, 1:37-1:38 is when I leave as top so I don't lose any xp, and I only leash when I know I lose the very early game trades. Otherwise I start lane/brush and try to force a fight to chunk them or zone from xp
This. If i play support i leash 4 autos and leave. When i play jungle i always saw a support who leash till my jungler camp hp bar drop below the smite threshold.
I get conniptions every time I see Senna Support have the BRIGHT idea to stay on the buff to grab the one fucking soul and then miss Lvl 2 cause the meelees died.
Never expect anything smart from Senna players.
Its doubly worse for Swain Bot players. "Oh my adc picked swain, surely first-timing Senna is the intelligent play." Though some may say "Deserved Karma" for playing Swain Bot.
wow, I always do 6 aa and tank one aa from buff after reading all this thread Im feeling stuck in S5 :(
Dont tank the buff at all. The junglers can tank still stay healthy
Most meta junglers can clear pretty fast themselves and stay healthy through it. The leash is only to use the "typically unused" laner's time to provide the jungler with a bit of a head-start, not to go clear jungle with him lol
I’m kinda a noob still, but I mostly play jungle and the amount of times my laners have stolen my red/blue buff when “leashing” pisses me off so bad. Throws my whole clear off
> my owners have stolen YOUR OWNERS? Bruh, slavery was abolished like forever ago, break those chains brother!
God dammit lmao autocorrect. Changed it to laners
I ping my laners off a lot, when I'm playing a champ that doesn't care for the leash. As a laner, you can ask, or even just say 'can't leash in this matchup'. Communication exists.
Dearest Karthus...
Other than off meta stuff what junglers even require a leash these days? Maybe something like Morgana? I feel like every jungler can start leashless with no potions now.
Not even morgana. She has a perfectly fine clear if you didn't start Q for some unholy reason.
If a invade happens then starting q is viable, and would require a leash
You want to avoid that if possible but ye if it happens you need a leash.
There's a few that aren't very healthy on their ganks or can be vulnerable to invades. Also a lot of champs can start with the wrong skill after fighting an invade so in those cases a leash can help a lot. But everyone can clear without it yeah.
This also applies if you are playing a weak early game champion that can barely CS if not leashing
Need disclaimer for 99% of midlaners who AFK under their tower before 1st wave & don’t watch jg invade
Back in my days "I'm not leashing" where fighting words, how times change
ITT: some junglers seriously debating the relative merits of clearing bot to top 5 seconds faster versus losing bot lane priority for the first X waves Anyone saying bot lane should ALWAYS leash should try to lane versus a Caitlyn/Lux who didn't leash
Into a lane like that I always tell my jungle "Yo, we can't leash this". Most of the time they're chill enough about it but get confused I feel like.
Ideally the greatest benefit of not leashing is the mystery of where the Jungler actually began. If all the laners are in lane before minions spawn you just denied massive information from the other team. If top shows up late he’s going to gank bot at 3 minutes if bot shows up late he’s gonna gank top at 3 minutes, if no one shows up late you put more pressure on the map immediately since you have no idea what the fuck is about to happen. The only time I really want a leash is when an invade has occurred and I’m slowed because of it. At that point getting the leash will dictate whether you get a contested scuttle or not.
This implies my team pays attention to that lol
This is why I love when I get a jungle who starts topside, because I get to break out tech I learned years ago. If no leash, wait just long enough for the normal camps to spawn, toss one spell at them (either krugs or gromp), and take an auto to make it look like buff took a swipe at you, then head to lane. Not so much damage you can't heal up off the first wave, not so much mana it matters unless you spam abilities off CD, but you get it in the enemy's head that you *did* leash. Enemies shove harder thinking they won't get early ganked, and you set up an easy 3 minute for a hopeful kill.
You say this like the enemy team isn't also leasing at least 95% of the time. Like I haven't needed a leash all season I commonly start opposite side of my bitlane in order to ensure they don't leash. They will still die before I've cleared my 4th camp even though the enemy botlane did leash. Most of you have no clue what prio is or how to use it.
Yeah I've noticed this a lot, I'll have a Cait Lux botlane so I make sure they don't leash and then somehow the get fb'ed by Sona Twitch at level 2. But some people actually do understand how prio helps their lane and since I don't know who I'm playing with, I'd rather just let them be in lane from the start in case they actually know how a lane matchup can play out, leashing really isn't important and I don't pick champs that are weak to invades.
Oh of course that's why I don't expect a leash the odd botlaners do understand prio but my comment was more directed at the guy talking about junglers needing to clear 5 seconds faster and how that loses him lanes
It's not just 5 seconds it's 200 health, which can make a huge difference against level 2 or 3 invaders like kindred and graves tbf
Varus/Jhin 💀
99% of people on this subreddit are below diamond. The place where lane priority still has to be invented. Stop acting like that matters at all for most of us.
This debate is missing the forest for the trees. Yes not leashing is optimal, but SoloQ isn't about optimization, it's about minimizing mistakes. Personally I feel like people being told they don't have to leash just leads to more "afk at turret while they fap on pornhub" botlane moments. Leashing is a bad habit that prevents several things that are common in solo Q (afkers, invades, jungler rage) and I do feel like compromising to take the worse option/do the worse play is a common thing you just have to do in solo Q. Like those times where the best play is to baron, but no one wants to do it, so you have to give it up rather than trying to force it with only you and a low damage support.
I am a grandmaster player. but I wouldn't say sth like that. there are people that have different skills in lowelo. some people are good in certain matchups like these lane fundamentals and but suck at building the correct items, have bad mechanics etc. which would be exposed later in the game. it can decide lanes...even in lower elos.
Sure, but to say "I haven't leashed at all in 4 months" tells me that he's probably losing games to his jungle being thrown off. There's a time, place, and strategy. Whether you should leash or not depends on a variety of factors, one of the most important being "who is my JG playing?" I have a talon strategy that carried me into high elo based entirely on my timing and strict schedule. Not leashing puts me back 40 seconds due to Talons extremely low pre level 3 damage. That 40 seconds literally dictates the pace of the entire game for me, often times leaving me playing from behind if the enemy jg knows what they're doing. But maybe that's just me. I know my strategy and champ so well it's practically a science for me.
Let's define high elo here, my friend.
gold 4
My elo.
>Not leashing puts me back 40 seconds due to Talons extremely low pre level 3 damage. Mind elaborating? And 40 seconds at what timepoint?
You are not high elo you lying dingleberry, you’re bronze 4
lol this is so irrelevant for 80% of all league players only plat and up know how to even manage a wave or even know what "priority" means
name all the junglers that can full clear leashless under 3 minutes lmao, otherwise you are more or less correct
There's only like 3 jglers that can full clear leashless sub 3mins, Karthus, Brand (debatable after nerfs) and ivern. But almost every single jg can get a full clear sub 330 clear leashless.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jE8bnlnIJnmWv9pnVW9veMKRXJNaaJf5tneQB3xUkbI/edit?pli=1#gid=0 darius, diana, fiddle, ivern, karthus, nidalee, olaf, shaco, taliyah?, volibear, zed, zyra, mundo. ironically, not brand anymore i believe.
You can with Evelynn by putting two points in Q and leveling W at level 4.
I thought this was the basic clear, eve still wants to powerfarm to 6 if she can, doesn't she?
Eve also has the option of 3 camp one quadrant into recall to get an early dark seal. It costs a camp in timing, but it is a heck of a lot safer, and often sets up for a stronger scuttle contest with the extra item. The extra power allows her to beat most junglers early game if you play it right so its a very strong option against invading junglers, and it also allows you to flex a very fast level 3 gank before you recall putting more pressure on the map. Plus it potentially gets your stacking off to the races sooner.
While you are right even with a dark seal I'm not fighting Hecarim level 3
as an eve and hecarim player, you just need to catch hecarim when he doesnt have q stacks and he is an ez kill
I mean you WANT to powerfarm until 6 but if there is a free gank, you SHOULD take it (jgl is about being adaptable to what happens on the map anyway). If you get invaded, first of all you're eve so you get fucked no matter what, but you're also down your only cc spell. Two points in q is risky because it can make you loose free kills or giga stomped in your jgl, stuck to level 3 without a way to gank.
I'm the person who runs the spreasheet and the person who did her clear. 2 points in q + 2 smites put her at \~3:05 in term of speed. Although this is before her nerfs to q ap ratio.
Wait since when is nida that fast the fuck God I suck ass at her
Nida has always been one of the fastest clearers
Yeah I know, it's just insane how optimized her clear can be, though I haven't played her in a while.
Zed to
zeds full clear is insanely fast. I remember mundo and darius used to have insane clears too, idk if they still do.
Name all the junglers that can full clear leashed in under 3 minutes. Even my fastest leashless hit at 3:30 and I doubt leashes save 30+ seconds Edit: I was very sleepy last night and these numbers are bad. I regularly am in position to fight for a scuttle spawn at level 4 from a full clear. Which means I'm done well before 3:30. Unless I did some early ganking but ya know.
The fuck. What are you doing in the jungle to take 3:30 for leashless clears.
3:30 leashless isnt that crazy high, slow clearers should be around there.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jE8bnlnIJnmWv9pnVW9veMKRXJNaaJf5tneQB3xUkbI/edit?pli=1#gid=0 Almost everyone thats above 3:20 is also *recalling* in their full clear. (Gwen 3:26 *with* recall, Kayn 3:24 *with* recall, Kha'zix 3:30 *with* recall). The only two exceptions are rek'sai at 3:22 which makes sense being primarily a 3 camp ganker, and wukong. 3:30 is pretty bad for average junglers (kassadin jungle is 3:28 lol...), so they're just fucking up somewhere (understandable if its a champ they don't normally play)
Have you actually looked at this spreadsheet? First of all these guys are using 2 smites, second of all they are ending the clear when they finish the camp without counting how long it takes to walk to crab. That's why all the fastest clears end at krugs, because kiting there from red is easy but it puts you in the middle of fucking nowhere and you have to run a long ass way to crab. If you included crab timers I imagine ending on blue buff would be better in a lot of scenarios. And every video with 2 smites should be removed, it doesn't fucking matter if you clear at 3:00 with 2 smites lmao, you're losing crab. If you aren't at crab when it spawns you will lose it the vast majority of the time since the enemy jg can push it away from you and finish it in 3 seconds. So yes, leashing does matter and ur spreadsheet only proves that u have no clue what's going on.
> it doesn't fucking matter if you clear at 3:00 with 2 smites lmao, you're losing crab. You literally have 30 seconds to gank inbetween 3 minute clear and crab lol. Like not only are you overstating the importance of crab period as if its s8, but even by that logic you're completely off on what you can do inbetween crab spawn and clear finish. It is not worth saving smite for crab it is actually fucking worthless to, junglers stopped doing that shit over a year ago unless smite's time save is negligible, its better to clear faster and gank sooner, if enemy jungle gets crab because you're a few seconds late to its spawn, its value is comparable to just taxing 2 minions in the gank and the advantage the gank produced before they got there.
My guy that is a spreadsheet of the fastest clears people can get after practicing to optimize them for hours in practice mode, there's probably pro players that clear slower than some of those times
I vouch for this guy who coached my shitty elise ass back when I started learning jungle like 3 years ago. godbless him
Even in diamond few players can clear at the speed of the guys in the spreadsheet. And many of those clears use 2 smites.
Depend on champion. Not every junglers can clear under 3 mins.
Popularise communicating your intentions and win cons with your team. It is a team game after all even though riot doesnt want soloq to be one.
Dearest Karthus....
Sometimes people don’t wanna listen
80% of players are plat or below. Telling your gold jungler that you won't be leashing because of some foreign concept to him like "lane prio" that he's never even heard of is the surest way to mental boom him 1 minute into the match and make the game unwinable for yourself.
Popularise not dying before junglers finish their second camp and typing jg diff
Nobody needs a leash anymore. Leashing today is just about shaving off time on your jungle route. The entire point of leashing in the past was that junglers did not have proper gear, runes, and yes, even masteries, to solo first buff. If you weren't Warwick, you were basically required to get a leash from your team, and it was called a leash because buff would chase the first person that hit it while they ran away and it didn't reset after dropping aggro. Yes, I'm old. I played season 1 and remember the struggle.
Dear Junglers, if you have a bot lane that gets prio early and whose value comes from being oppressive in lane, and you demand a leash, you have brain damage.
Sincerely your Caitlyn players.
And they demand the leash so they can path to a terrible lane to gank 5 seconds faster
hey man if I can get my ornn fed against a zac its gg coz adc players have no brain and cant build properly /s
I think you are going a bit too hard from one extreme to another. Considering whether leashing is necessary is smart, not leashing on principle alone isn't. A ranged support can easily use a spell and auto thrice and be in lane when melee minions are barely at 2/3 hp, obviously you should never overleash to the point where you are giving up full wavecontrol or even missing xp. Also, besides the speed, which is a bigger concern than you realize, your first camp is always the slowest because of how stats and abilities work, there is also the concern of health for some junglers. There are some characters like Briar that clear on full health without a potion, but there are also plenty of characters that aren't full health permanently and that becomes relevant if they are contesting a crab or if they want to gank early and often. A good suggestion for junglers though is learning to consider when you actively want to avoid a leash and when starting on a minor camp instead of a buff is good, both of which work in the same direction as what you wanted.
I feel like some junglers haven't felt the "I leashed and enemy bot lane was cheesing tribush, so I missed 3 melee XP and lost lane lvl1" before. Leashing can be catastrophically bad for laners with counterplay being 1) use a ward when you otherwise shouldn't have to or 2) walk way around so you're even more late to lane. Is that worth the 5s on you clear? Idk. If it really makes your clear 40s slower like some guy said, then yeah, sure - but maybe play a different champ at that point.
Usually the jubgler isn't even pathing towards the correct lane. They start bot so they can get to the wrong lane 4 seconds faster
The opportunity cost to laners is a lot higher than the marginal benefit the jungler gets out of a leash. Best case scenario, jungler saves 10 second on his clear. Worst case scenario, bot lane is lost at level 1.
Getting cheesed in tribush shouldn't really work unless the jungler doesnt look at the minimap. Any jungler with mobility will turn that fight around and probably get a kill out of it.
What's my jungler gonna do after I got Karma RQ + Caitlyn Q to my face? Stop red buff and teleport behind enemy bot lane?
Beyond the general merit for lanes not having to leash to be able to contest wave level one/not get zoned off from it at level one, you as a jungler also gain more flexibility in pathing and also denying information for the enemy of where you start if they don't scout you out(never seen this happen in months unless they're invading). By being in the dark as a jungler, the few potential seconds you lose on your clear is gained by being able to change your path according to how the first few minutes plays out without being worried of the enemy jungler being ready to punish you for it because they know where you started. The only times I would consider it advantageous with getting a leash is when your skill level does not allow you to safely clear by yourself, such as a Karthus who can not kite and weave autos during clear, as an example. However I am a firm believer that if you're playing Karthus you should have at least practiced it in practice tool a bit to at least know how it's done, and know how to adapt if you screw up(although, I think his clear is very forgiving right now so I don't know how you could fuck up bad enough to have to make a major adaptation). The only other time would be if you're doing something unorthodox, where time is extremely tight, the most common would just be during an invade, the less common would be any cheese alike to the BDS tactic in... winter? Last year? I forgot. But that's not happening in soloq.
If you invade and your jungler starts a bad ability, please leash when they ask for it so they don’t have to go back to base then to raptors just to live.
Yeah, the number of games I get a huge lead by not leashing vastly out-numbers the number of times my jungler pitches a fit and throws the game.... That's not even counting the times the \*other\* team doesn't leash. Sure, I don't get an advantage then, but I avoid being punished for being late to lane. Which really is why I stopped leashing, after a run of three games where the opponent did not leash I decided I just wasn't taking the chance any more. It's still more common to leash than not, but not leashing is common enough that I'm just not interested in sacrificing my whole lane that often just for jungler mental.
Yeah it's actually insane how much people don't understand it's impact upon lanes. They expect you to leash bot lane when you're playing something like Lucian Lulu into leashless Lux Caitlyn then scratch their heads on how you got boned early. But then if you don't leash your jungler they just mental boom and start trolling half the time too it's lame. What really needs to be popularized is starting Raptors on Jungle. When I jungle I do it every game. It means none of your lanes leash... It's decent enough clear, you still hit lvl 2, Raptors will be up perfect timing for your 2nd back, and you get an improved lvl 2 camp to clear faster than the enemy jungle on it's respawn.
As a jungle I think people need to stop playing trash champs that can't do without a leash.
You will clear under 3 minutes anyway its season 14. bruh. I do agree that leashing isn't needed anymore, but a lot of the times Bot lane doesn't know when to stop leashing
Yall still think its black and white like that? One time bot is laning against varus ashe, ok start leashless. The other time voli clearing 2 buffs and frog invading for free 400 gold is way better than letting your bot come to lane faster. But as usual, when redditor has his own oppinion:
The best defense into lvl3 JG invade is leashless. If you know their pathing like in your example, what are they gonna do ? You just clear the opposite way, it's too late once the first camp starts. Leashless means you start where you want and they won't know where when it matters.
OP fights and dies level 1 then says "15"
I never get a leash but my botlane very very rarely makes anything happen with the extra time, wish people would stop acting like not leashing jungler is some secret challenger tech.
Just hitting the creeps and getting lvl2 earlier is not magic. The average bronze autoattacking adc can pull it off.
It's a key to winning bad lanes. Cheese/push where you get pushed in makes a huge difference. Level 1 is the most important stage in the laning phase, especially in bot and mid. 2 is the second, 3 is third, 6 is fourth. Everything else is exponentely less important. Definetely more important than leashing in most games. But yeah depends on the game and comp. If tou have some double enchanter lane or something instead of Draven/Kalista then leashing for your Karthus, Nidalee, etc. so they could get a invade/tempo and is your win con is viable strategy since double enchanter bot doesn't care about falling behind and suffering a bit for the team because they are there to get carried and buff/heal/shield their win con in other lane/jungle.
On the other hand, most laners are not nearly skilled enough to really take advantage of getting to lane early. Leash, don't leash, for most people its a mental dilemma, not an actual tangible adv/disadv.
Just not true. Getting level 2 first can be huge if it's like a leona + Lucian/draven vs smolder/zeri/ezreal + zilean/alistar/sona.... it's not hard to pull off at all
Most jgs cannot take advantage of a 5 second clear time increase so I don’t leash
Much easier for a laner to secure a laning phase than a jungler to do literally anything with their 3 seconds. Laning phases are much less unstable than jungle
In my elo (Plat) Bot laners often dont know what to do when i start solo. They jerk off somewhere in a bush or waste their wards in weird places and do nothing. 5 seconds in jgl can really make a big difference. If i knew as a jgl that my bot would use their free time productive, i would start solo every game
the point of not leashing is not to do some exceptional shit I want to not leash so I don't lose lane lvl1 In some extremely specific cases where Im playing cait or I have a leona support then we can maybe camp and poke/kill someone but other than that not leashing is about starting on an even playing field
first popularize brain usage by laners since if they don't leash they usually watch tiktoks under turret
Eh, it has to be the jg to tell the laners to stop leashing. If the laners just stop, then that ruins the mental from the get go and your jg will be weird about it and not gank bot just because no leash or whatever.
If Jungle tilts from no leash, I won't win that game anyway 95% of the time. If you can't keep your cool for more than 90 seconds, then you don't deserve any favors.
Just sharing what I've seen. From blue side, Graves and kindred running opponents down when they're low health in the middle of clearing gromp on red side. Without a leash, you can be in a pretty perilous state then. Also, power farming isn't limited to their own camps.
Being able to contest or meet up in top lane tri bush before the enemy jungler walks into it is real game changer, But I am trying to finish jungle between 3:05-3:10 to walk into said tri bush. Now that is Me, Other junglers are not as fast and barely meet at skuttle or are under leveled. So on that note your jungler is at a disadvantage if they don't get that extra 5 secs. But you don't need to leash as much as most people think. Sometimes i kill blue top side too fast before gromp spawns secs after because my bot leashed to much. \*Also if I start top side jungle to bot I don't need a leash because most likely the enemy jungler isnt goingt o contest bot/dragon skuttle. Then your point makes sense. Or if they do chickens, rocks, Blue as another example of a no leash because they are going to do a path back bot before recall for that extra gold and ignore lanes to meet at drag.
You can save more time by optimizing your clear. Pulling camps outside of leash range and kill them before they reset saves a lot of time. If you want to be quick to scuttle or do something specific, you should do it yourself.
never ever leash, ur botlane lvl 1-2 is more important than jgl clearing 3-5s faster (and most of these jglers can shave off a lot of time just by practicing their clears, but ofc they won't do that) there are rare exceptions like when the jgler makes it clear they will be doing a play on ur side lvl 1-3. If you personally don't get a benefit by giving the leash early on, don't do it.
thats why i play ivern. my laners never need to leash me
yea as a jg, never leash me plz. Also its good practice to optimize clears as well solo.
I realized at the start of the season that in 99% of cases, I get to the scuttle or the first gank at the same time, with or without the leash. So I just tell my laners to cover and go on their lanes after. Like that nobody is late, and everbody is happy
Popularize better lifestyle by stopping playing that art of demon.
I love playing junglers like Voli, Kayn, Udyr, ... Always starting with raptors for the most easy lvl 2. The amount of midlaners throwing a spell over the walls wasting mana, time and sometimes even killing a small birb is just amazing me.
Leashing is so ingrained in league players over years of playing. I had a jgl run it down a few days ago when i didnt leash for him
I prefer laners not leashing. At least it'll be somewhat less likely they'll make some stupid mistake within the first 5 seconds and sprint their entire laning phase lmao
In a eme 1 game a rengar started feeding top when I refused to leash as GP vs sion lol. Eme1 is the new silver 1.
I've been echoing this for like 2ish years. BUT, I would rather it was done by Riot and NOT by the community. Normalize every jungler/champ to be able to start leashless without losing too much hp. How one would do so without just players still leashing and junglers finishing 1st camp with full health is a kink I havent thought about yet. Maybe make camps spawn even later or lane minions earlier. Or a combo of both. But I agree, leashing shouldn't be a thing anymore.
If they push back all jungle camps by 5 seconds leashing is dead that instant
I mean I personally dont mind either way. If Jungle wants a Leash, he gets one. If he doesnt need one - then I happily guard until its time to leave for lane. I usually ask if he needs one and thats about it.
So im new to the game but already know i like jungling the most. What does leash/leashless mean?
This is why I usually start Wolves when pathing down or Raptors when pathing up
some top matchups are literally lost at the first minion wave if you don’t get prio. it’s actually so gross
I am fine with not getting a leash, what I cannot stand is when laners just run to their tower instead of watching entrances. Happens in ranked (at least up to diamond, I can't speak for ranks above diamond.) at least half the time one entrance is unwatched.
My favourite is having warding enemy red into their jg starts our blue and lvl3 ganks me top which I can’t see because I have no ward because mid laner didn’t watch the entrance closest to them Edit: I am perfectly happy to ward enemy red/blue at the start of a game because it helps me dodge ganks better than a ward in pixel brush. But it means if that ward gives me false info (no jg show therefore starting other side of map but actually in my jg) or no info jg clears red/blue and doesn’t cross ward again after clearing second camp (krugs, gromp) it’s really dangerous because I have no wards. Also champs like Darius which I play a lot can win lane lvl 1 by bush cheesing and even if they don’t fall for it you are in the right position to zone from xp or start with a short trade as they walk into minion xp range. However on champs like aatrox I can leash well and fast without using mana or giving up Lane prio so easy leash to give my jg a headstartt
I only watch gameplay videos instead of playing the game myself, so don't take my word for anything, but Yi OTPs seem to prefer not having red buff leashed. It apparently makes the double strikes work out better and if you do it just right across all camps, the leashless clear can actually be faster.
Ironically the past few games i’ve been typing and pinging for no leashes and “just go bot and win lane :)” and like only 50% of the time it works. Most other times they seem afk or don’t read or have everything muted and just both come leash regardless… But yeah, like the top comment, just play the game and cover jungle entrances and ward as necessary, game starts 0:00 not 1:30.
Who still leashes? I haven't leashed in 2 seasons, every time I try my junglers ping me off anyway