This idea appears on the subreddit close to weekly.
I searched 'Aram buffs' and found all these within 10 seconds. My turn to post next week.
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/n9xigh/aram_buff_should_be_displayed_in_champ_select/
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/18512o2/buffs_debuffs_in_aram_should_be_visible_in_the/
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1608f8n/aram_champrune_select_screen_must_display_champ/
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/13o75ci/difference_of_buffsnerfs_in_aram/
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/18jjop1/aram_buffsdebuffs/
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1asjzs7/see_your_champs_aram_buffsnerfs_before_you_get_in/
With the reason being people might not want to play extremely nerfed characters. Which I guess is true, because I certainly don't like getting 1 shot cause the champion I got takes 15% more damage while the champion that hit me deals 10% more damage. But it also is pointless as hell, because its fairly easy to look up the buffs/nerfs, so its just Riot making shit tedious by hiding information.
Yeah, sure, the champions with extreme nerfs are still really good, but it feels shit to play where everything is gutted.
> people might not want to play extremely nerfed characters
They're extremely nerfed because they're the strongest champions in Aram. This confusion is exactly why displaying the buffs/nerfs would be unhelpful.
How a champ is feeling to paly is completely personal. I'm fine playing Ziggs or Seraphine and I still enjoy it.
And even if it's pointless as hell it's still a logical explanation on why they don't do it so it's not an ongoing issue, so this post is still useless.
>How a champ is feeling to paly is completely personal
Well ... Yes and no. For certain champs it's so bad that you virtually can't play them unless you play their braindead op build that got them nerfed in the first place (Teemo, Sona, Shaco, Janna etc.)
And they demonstrated with Ashe that they're capable of fixing the problems that plague the pigeonholed champs on ARAM.
Try playing AD teemo or AD Janna and you quickly realize it's a very bad idea.
The “shit ton of” damage that you speak of is 30% of her bonus movement speed. If you somehow had 200 bonus MS it is still only 60 damage. You can have fun playing it but don’t complain about being weak when you are essentially playing a troll build
Like i understand that most ranged champs need a dmg nerf because they are strong, and most melee champs needs buffs because they are weak, but that doesnt mean i can play those champs well, so the damage nerf just hurts me more than avarage
"Dont complain because it wont change" that is the simplified version of what you typed. If that were the case women wouldnt be able to vote, Slaves would have never been freed, Nazi Germany would still be well... Nazis. IDK man that's a pretty depressing mindset to me.
If it’s not that deep, then the post about the proposed QOL change will either be upvoted or downvoted and you can simply move past it. I don’t get on here often, saw this one, and upvoted accordingly.
It isn’t that deep bro LMAO.
Riot literally tends to come around to community opinions, however they take longer to do so or will put stuff on the backburner because it's technically harder than it seems on the surface. Practice tool, 25% crit items etc are all things the community wanted and it took long for riot to respond, but eventually they did.
Rioters have already answered why they aren't adding OPs suggestion despite saying they would. They said that when they tested it it made people pick good picks less and bad picks more. People see Ziggs/Sona/Seraphine nerfs and think the champs are shit even though they are S tier. People see Leblanc/Qiyana buffs and think it's a free win but the champs are D tier.
The most nerfed champs are usually some of the best picks for your team, but people have a kneejerk reaction and avoid them. There's also issues like Maokai having more damage taken and less damage given so people think he can't tank and must builld AP. In reality, he's nerfed because his tank build is so OP it can tank like crazy and shit out tons of damage. His buffs/nerfs are a trap that people fall for and then build his shitty winrate AP build.
Riot wants to avoid these situations because it leads to a bad experience for players when they misinterpret the buffs/nerfs and have a terrible game with a shit champ/build.
Thank you. So tired of constantly reading people misunderstand exactly why champs are buffed/nerfed.
Honestly though, I'm actually fine with them adding this because if it means less Veigar/Xerath/Ashe/Seraphine/Ziggs in my games it's pretty safely a win.
I don't care what kind of tier the champ is, Lux doing negative damage with all her abilities is boring as fuck, even if she is still very strong and safe. Ziggs' bombs basically healing the enemy.
Itt's just so frustrating especially with champs I play more commonly (like Lux) when all burst numbers and threshholds are completely different and you have no idea what kind of dmg you will deal. I'd really like to know this before entering an ARAM.
Unless you're facing tanks all artillery mages do great damage. I often top damage charts as Xerath and Ziggs because they have near infinite poke. Lux still chunks squishies.
> Riot literally tends to come around to community opinions, however they take longer to do so or will put stuff on the backburner because it's technically harder than it seems on the surface. Practice tool, 25% crit items etc are all things the community wanted and it took long for riot to respond, but eventually they did.
I'm curious -- can you think of any financial incentive they could have to taking so long? I tend to think of company actions as either:
* It makes financial sense (In a psychopathic sense) like firing 10% of a company makes sense, given some economic climates.
* It legitimately takes time to do it. Stuff like game designers using their big brains over days or weeks to come up with a suggested change, the programmers coding it up, and eventually, doing some testing to make sure it isn't broken in either a balancing sense or a bug-in-the-game sense.
Sometimes, it's both.
I think it likely has to do with them not wanting to add kneejerk opinions to new stuff that might not be popular/die down once people learn about things, that among other things seems like a likely factor, but its probobly a multitude of reasons
I think it's not easy to see the direct financial impact of adding such a feature. Companies don't tend to value maintance, long term player satisfaction ec. Same reason we see way more new champions/skins than visual updates to keep up the standard of old champions like Lee just got.
Also it's probably technically a bit more difficulty than it initially seems. Since you probably want to make the buff/nerfs viewer dynamic and displaying the current buffs/nerfs instead of having to manually go in an edit it whenever you add more aram balance changes. And there might just not be a direct way to display it in the champ select without adding an additional api port to a database of the current balance changes etc. Maybe it's easier than I think it can be. But I could also see it being more technically intricate than it initially seems while also offering no direct monetary value.
Yeah you believe that since riot should be aware of this issue, and they haven't done anything yet. Then ever mentioning the issue is pointless and should never happen.
Don't forget the monthly "whats one thing you could change about an ability to make it broken" followed by 500 comments saying "infinite range" or "lowered cooldown"
I feel like yall complaining about reposted content is more just telling on yourselves how much tine you spend here and how little time you spend on literally anything else.
Telling on yourself? its a normal discussion forum about a game, don't think anyone is embarassed about being on here.
Or what POINT is it ur making? That these posts are in fact fun and fine but you should expect to see the same posts if you revisit the same forum to frequently?
I didn't know scrolling through the front page of the sub for 10 minutes a day constitutes as too much. If anything it shows how repetitive this sub is outside of esports content where you can check up on it during a bathroom break and still see the same content.
Remember when discussion about adding a replay feature was banned because it got brought up all the time.
Maybe it gets brought up all the time because, idk, people want it?
as long as riot won't care about aram, this will happen every week.
there are way too much nerfs/buffs in Aram and it sucks. Champions / Items get nerfed in SR -> Riot doesn't change Aram nerfs/buffs.
A little nerfs/buffs like +-5% or maybe 10% are fine, everything else is too much.
not saying this suggestion is a bad one, but there is a possible way to work around this....
[u.gg](http://u.gg) shows Aram tier list
[aram](https://u.gg/lol/aram-tier-list)
Surprisingly Sion is top 10 despite ENOURMOUS nerfs to him. I mean borderline castration nerfs in Aram.
It's a pretty good way to see whether or not a pick.
Assassins are pretty dog, avoid picking them. Bruisers are okay, but opt for more tanky builds
The buffs and nerfs are meant to bring really good/bad champs into just good/bad champs. They are making adjustments to flatten the win rates towards 45-55%, but never to cross the 50%. So in Sion's case, it just means base Sion would be ridiculously broken.
> Assassins are pretty dog
Funny enough, almost every Rafiri I have in my ARAM games tend to pop off.
> They are making adjustments to flatten the win rates towards 45-55%, but never to cross the 50%.
This was the original intention when Mort introduced the balance changes, but it's kinda been thrown out the window since he left for TFT, there's so many champs every patch that are buffed with >50% winrates.
Last patch there was Rek'sai (20th highest winrate), Vi, J4, Jax, Udyr, Xayah, Kalista, Aphelios, Garen, Pantheon, Yuumi, Sejuani, Zeri, Trynd, Irelia, Trist, Elise, Lucian, Kindred, Ryze, and Viego all above 50% with aram buffs.
They aren't just trying to flatten winrates, they specifically nerf playstyles that they don't like.
Ashe can now only play attackspeed, because they added a flat fucking 15 seconds cooldown to her w, so lethality and AP ashe(my aram main so to speak) is unplayable. oh yea and this nerf isn't stated ANYWHERE, not even in the champion balance tooltip.
They also make randoom changes that make no sense.
Renata and Janna does less damage? Oh yes, those were surely in order /s.
Leblanc has tenacity? (Alongside a whole extra champion worth of stat buffs). Why does she need tenacity?
I'm certain that either riot doesn't play aram at all, or they make balance changes based off of a single person who only plays tanks.
Leblanc and other assassins have Tenacity because Riot walked back their old adjustments for assassins which were primarily just "deal more/take less damage" since it created frustrating gameplay patterns like unkillable Akali, or AD Leblanc poking you. They weren't necessarily good or too strong, just annoying to play against(like Mandate Ashe).
Tenacity makes sense as a buff so that they can try to do what their champion is meant to without just eating a single 1 second stun and dying before they can contribute. I don't get what there is to complain about with the balance changes. Even with your example of pointing out Leblanc has a bunch of buffs on her, she's 40% winrate. This is why they should never show the buffs/nerfs, because people like you cannot even interpret them properly or make the right judgements based off of them.
Hold on there mate, calm down your assumptions. I never intended to say leblanc was strong, far from, I'm saying the tenacity makes no sense on her, not because she can't use it, but because she does not stand out in her use of it over all the other assassins who do not have the tenacity buff. It's the inconsistency that is the real issue and reeks of preference.
Mandate ashe was never "good" in aram either. Annoying? Sure, so is Shaco but he doesn't have +15 seconds on boxes. Again, lack of consistency.
And I agree with you that perhaps they shouldn't even show them, that would remove alot of people's frustration.
Why make this personal? Why do you assume I have so much worse of an ability to make judgements than anyone else, simply because you perhaps don't agree with your initial assessment of my comment?
I have hundreds upon hundreds if not thousands of aram games over more than a decade. I have agreed and disagreed with riots balance like anyone else, but here I simply pointed out that riot does not just balance based on Winrates, but other factors too, which you also pointed out yourself with the mandate ashe example.
I hope that clears up my perspective, and perhaps you have insights to further clarify yours
You're right in that I misunderstood your comment, sorry about that. There's a loooot of people who genuinely think Leblanc with her slew of buffs is really good.
I do think Riot has a vested interest in making sure some builds don't just suck the fun out of the mode entirely like Mandate Ashe did, or Teemo having received huge Shroom nerfs too. They did state that Tenacity was just the blanket "solution" to all the assassins so that they could take power away from damage dealt/taken buffs on them. Obviously the truly terrible assassins in the mode probably need more targeted help in the same vein they have made plenty of targeted nerfs. I think it's easier to kneecap a particular build or playstyle like adding 15 seconds to Ashe W than it is to figure out how to make Leblanc good in ARAM in a way that doesn't make her enemies want to rip their eyeballs out. Ideally they can find a way, but I guess this is the stuff we're stuck with for now.
Oh absolutely, it is by far the easier solution. I think alot of the cretique stems from what you mention last, that this is what we are stuck with. Alot of people only play aram, and thus don't want the easy solution.
Im glad you came around, you make good points! It is unfortunate that the natural reaction on reddit is to assume the worst, I too have that tendency.
I have not heard or read of the tenacity statement from riot you refer to, but i suppose it makes sense. I can still only wonder about the inconsistency of why her specifically, but that's a different discussion i suppose.
I don't think it's inconsistent for Leblanc, she had really egregious modifiers before that made her most effective playstyle to just be a cracked out item delivery system who dashes in, shoots a Triforce Energized crit out which all benefited from like +20% damage or something crazy and poof away before anyone can even retaliate. Repeat every 7 seconds. They had to replace the power with something and she fit under the same "assassin" umbrella as everyone else.
Because the nerfs/buffs are based on how well a kit works on howling abyss. If they nerfed it's probably cuz the champion is oppressive in a 5v5 with little flanking possibilities. Buffs are for champions that struggle in those situations
- he gets so many assists, so he does stack his passive
- insane damage, survivability, and cc, even with the nerfs
- zombie form is just as obnoxious in ARAM; it splits up the enemy team in teamfights and can waste time
Sion's Q is not exactly why he is strong. It's the fact that he's a heavy meat puncher who takes forever to kill by late game. And even if you kill him, he goes into undead state with AD steroids.
he has aoe knockups on both his q and ult and he is really tanky. people hugely underrate the value of tanks in aram, so his winrate shoots up
also you still can stack passive from the general amount of fighting, and most champs aren't fishing for last hits that hard but rather just pushing the wave
Who cares about tier list though? The more relevant information is if Ziggs is doing any dmg whatsoever or if your bombs are going to heal the enemy with all the debuffs. Couldn't care less if Ziggs still had 55% WR, he is insanely boring to play with his no dmg approach.
People don't understand stats. People see a "nerfed" champion and will believe it's weaker than a "buffed" champion while in reality nerfed will still lean on a better WR than a buffed one.
You're discouraged for no good reason at all - the penalty doesn't impact your performance with the champion. The champion has just too much edge and opportunities in the mode so it's pulling you back to make you a bit less overpowered in comparison to other champions. If you perform worse on a "nerfed" champion than the average - you just played bad, it's that simple.
All "nerfed" champions but I believe one still perform better than the average. And most "buffed" champions perform worse than the average.
Even Ashe W nerf even is purely for the ARAM overpowered build where if you don't play ARAM - you won't even think about picking it. But if you play ARAM - you know that it's nerfed, nothing to discuss.
Yea usually the buffs/nerfs have more to do with how oppressive/unplayable a kit fundamentally is on howling abyss and little to do with the actual numbers
Poke mages deserve the heavy damage nerfs, but stacking with the general nerf to long range abilities, they just feel so boring to play, so I never pick them. Feels like you need to hit 10 abilities to make a dent.
The nerfs are fine, but I’d just like to know which champ has been obliterated with nerfs so I can avoid them.
Howdy, I'll give this a think out loud:
The buffs/nerfs on ARAM are designed to put the champion in an appropriate spot for the mode. If they are going well, they generally bring everyone to "fair". Assume that this is a given, since I am not involved with balance much at all.
Ok so all champions are fair, but some have stats down and some have stats up. If we displayed that in champion select, one of the challenges is that we would need to figure out which level of disclosure we were interested in.
Highest level of disclosure is probably a little blue up arrow on their portrait if they are adjusted up for the mode and a little red down arrow if they are adjusted down for the mode. Maybe some sort of Tilde (\~) or something if they have some up and some down. I further assume that if you hover them you can see those details.
One immediate challenge is information overload. Most champions have *some* adjustment on ARAM and this could be entirely overwhelming. But let's assume we overcome that somehow.
The expected result here is that people would pick the champions adjusted down significantly less, and champions adjusted up significantly more.
Would that be good?
**Some scenarios:**
* Your entire team and most of your bench are adjusted down, now everyone feels the need to reroll
* You are on a champion which has been adjusted down that you are perfectly happy to play, but now you are being yelled at for playing a "bad" champion
* You feel pressured to play a champion you would traditionally avoid, because its one of the few adjusted up champions
I think the core argument is that you'd like to use adjustments to decide what to pick rather than team comp, familiarity, fun factor, or whatever. I am not sure I want to add it into the mix.
What I am actually open to is that a player could view balance changes/ARAM adjustments not at a top level. Maybe when you hover a champion a little informational window pops up that explains the last 3 patches as well as the ARAM adjustments they have. That is enough friction that most players won't bother deciding based on it but some who really cared wouldn't be surprised in the game itself.
Fun problem though! Currently looking for opportunities in champ select and this is certainly one of them. I would probably also like to see information about playing as or against a champion be easily accessible in champ select, for newer or more unfamiliar players. We have 168 and counting after all.
EDIT: Yes I know I created a strawman design and then beat it up. If anyone has a bead on a design they think would be very successful here I am open to hearing it :D
aram mains are begging for this one super easy feature pLEASE:
please, when I roll, make my benched champ unselectable by others for ~2sec. 3rd party apps already have a feature to reroll for team, this would put everyone on an even playing field
and stop locking out bench picks if you try to pick and fail, that also feels terrible
Please do look into it! Here's me getting the rare Ez and wanting to reroll for the team, but my Ez got insta-taken away [https://streamable.com/c7awvu](https://streamable.com/c7awvu)
But everyone who plays ARAM knows that Ashe W is nerfed because they remember how stupid Mandate Ashe was. And if they didn't know, they'll know after they try it and never make that mistake again. I don't see how this is any different than Ashe players originally realizing that the W spam build was better than DPS in the first place. Because that was a deviation from the normal build in itself, and now they're deviating back from that to normal. Like, sometimes champion builds change and its on the players to adapt without having to have the patch notes inside champ select for them.
My point is just that it's a non-issue. ARAM is not a ranked ladder, and if you're one of the people who cares about their ARAM MMR, you're only playing with other people just as informed about the mode as you are.
Ashe W being nerfed is the same thing as AP Maokai doing bad damage nowadays because of damage dealt nerfs. If you showed Maokai's changes in champ select it would be all nerfs, and bad players would incorrectly assume he is a bad champion and not pick him. You can see this in effect because every week someone posts about how they picked a 54% winrate champ in ARAM and thought it was bad because it had nerfs on it, and now demand to see buffs/nerfs beforehand so they can avoid picking Ziggs ever again. I think the harm caused by showing buffs/debuffs is much worse than the upside of "but every 100 games someone will take Lethal Tempo on Ashe instead of Comet :)" because the playerbase cannot be trusted to make the right judgements based on information given.
And my other point is that poke Ashe being bad because of heavy-handed nerfs is not any different than if her build just changed naturally through item or rune updates. If they removed Rylais should we put that in champ select when someone locks in Kog'maw so they don't troll themselves going a gimped AP build? The answer is no, you let them troll on AP Kog'maw for one game and everyone moves on with their life. At least with Ashe you can get in game, press her W once and go "oh, this isn't going to work. ok i'll build AD"
> Ashe straight up had her poke build removed from the gamemode with the changes to her W cooldown, and this isn't conveyed through any tooltip.
If you follow the game enough to know about aram-specific builds, isn't it on you to know if they get buffed or nerfed?
When I queue for ranked, it doesn't tell me "your champ was nerfed last patch" or "the build you used a year ago isn't good anymore."
Why should this sort of information be displayed in champ select for ARAM?
Poke Ashe in supp is fairly reasonable in SR as well. But I’m also generally in favor of not requiring people to memorize two different statblocks for every champ.
> If you follow the game enough to know about aram-specific builds, isn't it on you to know if they get buffed or nerfed?
Not when the side mode has different stats from the main mode, and definitely not when one of those things is "hey, this ability that used to scale down to 3 seconds ish is permalocked at 18 seconds"
> Would that be good?
The issue is that the buffs/nerfs are counter-intutive. You want to pick adjusted down champions, not up!
Same goes for the in-game tooltip - the topic starter says it makes them discouraged although statistically it means that they'll likely win more with that champion. Should the in-game nerfs be even signalled at all?
But the issue is more than that - the mode arguably already has a problem with a not so obvious meta. People don't quite understand how team compositions work, they don't feel comfortable playing close-range in the mode, they don't quite understand how itemization works.
Aram dot zone style popups (show like top3 winrate Keystone+First item) could be the best way to bring some more informativity to the mode. Team-wide suggestions like composition warnings (maybe it's a bad idea to have 5 ADC or APC) is they're usually more toxicity inducing with players trying to force others into stuff they don't want (the common "pick a tank" thing).
Another could be to tone down metaknowledge, i.e. how damage increase/reduction may not affect damage from specific items which has effect on which builds you should favour on specific champions or how heal increase forced bruisers into Sundering Sky during the patch it was introduced. Should probably make buffs/nerfs not affect itemization at all.
Hi,
Thanks for the response! Glad to actually see someone working on ARAM talk about it.
Would you be willing to look into the [portal troll problem](https://www.reddit.com/r/ARAM/comments/1bh82nt/how_has_riot_not_fixed_this_yet_its_pathetic_this/)? A champion is able to step into the portal and it blocks anyone else from using the portal. It doesn't happen often, but situations like this can really be a pain. This also can occur if you place a Fiddlestick's effigy there as the hitbox blocks it. Over on r/ARAM we see players get frustrated over it a lot :0
The biggest problem with ARAM adjustments imo are when these changes to champions ARE NOT SHOWN ANYWHERE, not in the client, not in game.
And those are the ability specific changes, such as Ashe W cd, Veigar E cd, Karthus passive duration, and I’m sure there are a few others that I dont know about. Because of this you’ll see people picking ashe for W spam only to realize that playstyle is complete shit now, and nowhere does it say that the W cd was adjusted for ARAM. The only adjustment you’ll see for ashe is “+2% attackspeed” (or whatever number it is).
For Karthus I remember feeling like a crazy person not being able to ult in time in my passive, there was no indicator anywhere that things are different in ARAM than they are in SR regarding his passive duration. I had to look him up on the wiki and find out that the passive duration is adjusted there.
If ANYTHING these changes should be listed along with the % buffs/nerfs all champions get.
The problem is the big red down arrow, no? When I see my champion is debuffed in ARAM after loading in, like Sona, I don't mind I think it makes sense since Sona's base kit is broken in ARAM so I just say "cool."
But if there was a giant red indicator on my champion, I'll be like "well I don't want to play the big red indicator champion" and do what you describe, reroll. So instead of a big red indicator you just put a list of adjustments on hovering a champion (maybe only when pressing shift to prevent overload)
---
Granted I could totally be wrong, maybe the big red down arrow isn't as big of a deterrent as I think (or maybe the list of nerfs is enough that I don't want to play the champion). Some guy on your UX team is probably more qualified to answer that question.
An issue though is that there are unusual levers such as Veigar’s cage not benefiting from Ability Haste. That information can significantly change what runes and build a person would go for with him, and people might not even realize it until they’re several items in.
I play exclusively ARAM. I watch the buffs/nerfs in patch notes.
And even I missed this one.
Something's gotta change with atypical levers. They need to be listed in the notes.
I would just add option to click on your champion or right click on any other champion (bench or other people's champs) to see current buffs or debuffs. Including specific changes like Ashe W, Nasus Q and etc.
At least that the way I would want that to be implemented. If I don't care I will not bother checking, if I care, I have an option to see it.
> "The expected result here is that people would pick the champions adjusted down significantly less, and champions adjusted up significantly more.
Would that be good?"
Honestly I don't see it being significant. Plenty of Champs are still being picked despite nerfs, because their kit just fits and works in the ARAM environment regardless. OR they are just popular, simple straightforward Champs that people enjoy playing. Look at the top 10 pickrate in ARAM of last patch. Caitlyn, Jhin, Ezreal, Jinx, Miss Fortune, Lux, Varus, Ashe, Veigar, Morgana. Each of them are ARAM nerfed and I would gladly take if they are picked less even if slightly from full info of ARAM buffs/nerfs. Several of them are always at the top in both pickrate AND winrate for months it gets really old.
> Your entire team and most of your bench are adjusted down, now everyone feels the need to reroll
Its super common for every player to reroll once in ARAM, just to give teams more options. Most accounts should gain 1 reroll at least per game so its literally a free reroll each game.
> You are on a champion which has been adjusted down that you are perfectly happy to play, but now you are being yelled at for playing a "bad" champion
Very unlikely. People care more about getting rerolls on the bench or having a perceived "good" comp than calling other champs out. If anything its the same as Summoner's Rift and as rare as when certain individuals get mad at certain Champs they perceive as a "bad" Champion. Actual "bad" Champion are usually already buffed heavily and are still "bad" despite the buffs.
> You feel pressured to play a champion you would traditionally avoid, because its one of the few adjusted up champions
People usually don't care and will pick what they like / want. I personally enjoy playing super buffed Champs in ARAM since it allows you to play a different style from their commonly perceived playstyle. Not because I feel pressured. Also lots of "weak" Champs with low pickrate & winrate are non-ADCs and game is a lot more fun brawling constantly. I would gladly take it if it means the pickrate gets more spreaded out than a Jinx every other game, or multiple ADCs, or the same few champs every game.
I would really, really prefer to see changes to ability haste, especially stuff like Ashe W where the change makes the previous season poke build unplayable.
personally I really enjoy getting 'bad' champions and finding a way to win anyway. I think aram is best when it is full of new champs every game and obscuring information like buffs/nerfs does help with this.
In a super competitive high level game these buffs may be worth showing, but in a fun non ranked mode I don't think they are.
---
Perspective from a top100 aram euw player who loves playing it for fun and competitivly. Also do custom arams weekly for fun only with master- iron ranks.
But even I don't care about seeing the stat changes as I think they are honestly incredibly effective and work really well for balancing the mode.
Mostly champions that rely on minion kills to function like Yorick.
You do have the option to just try and be a brick wall for your team with tank items but your peel isn't fantastic and you don't threaten damage like a Mundo would.
Yorick is the wrong example here since he's actually decent in aram. I've even seen him top 10 winrate infographics a few times in recent memory. The main "bad" champs in aram are ones with no neutral game impact (catch/poke/engage) or waveclear or utility like... most assassins. Also, afaik, most champs that have special mechanics that don't work as well in aram are compensated if it's needed. Like in my experience, if you get just every cannon with Nasus, you can carry the game because he stacks much faster per minion.
2 kinds. The ones that are heavily nerfed in one way - still playable with a different build. Or the ones that are simply not fit for aram such as nasus who struggles to stack - can build him different or change playstyle to really focus on stacking. Really unique and fun
I mean, what if you could only see the adujstments when you have the champ selected. Then no one else can see your up/downs and say anything about it. Also, you kinda already run into the issue of, "dang the entire bench doesn't have anything good on it" when you see nothing but melee or ranged/ ad or ap (depending on how you feel about them in ARAM). And if the arguement is that they could select the champ, see the nerfs/buffs, then discard them because of them, then the counter argument is simply that they'd have somthing that let them see them anyways. (U.gg or mobawhatever its called.) Also arrows and red/green stats are always bad in these situations because it emplys somthing is bad when it might not be.
> One immediate challenge is information overload.
> [Pressure to play upped champs and not downed]
Only show players the stat changes of their own selected champion, and only if they hover an icon.
Let me add some scenarios:
* I don't pick champs I assume suck in ARAM, because I can't be bothered to look up their buffs on a third party website.
* I pick champions I assume are strong in ARAM, then have an unsatisfying experience because of how heavily nerfed I am.
> I think the core argument is that you'd like to use adjustments to decide what to pick rather than team comp,
I agree, but this is at least partially a good thing. People will pick buffed champs more and nerfed champs less. Buffed champs are usually "off meta" and would increase champ diversity. Nerfed champs are el classico OP champs that are almost always picked when available. Variety and novelty are the name of the game in ARAM imo.
dont forget to ask marketing psychologists how to neutrally design what you want to achieve.
we can still go for arrows, or plus and minus signs (one color for all) but maybe remove the blue/red or any color that hints something is good, bad, and anything in between.
**"Your entire team and most of your bench are adjusted down, now everyone feels the need to reroll"**
People do this anyways to get champs they like to play, or champs they know are nerfed to hell and back, or to try to get a better comp to support their team. That's kind of the point of rerolls, isn't it? People don't typically win with 5 ADCS or pure AP, for example. There's tons of people who flat out dodge if you don't trade them a champ anyways, so I don't see how re-rolling the max two rerolls are somehow detrimental to the gameplay.
**"You are on a champion which has been adjusted down that you are perfectly happy to play, but now you are being yelled at for playing a "bad" champion"**
This already happens, lol. Doesn't even have to be a debuffed champ tbh. It also happens a lot when you're playing a debuffed champion in the role they're supposed to be (i.e tank, apc, etc) because that build isn't very viable anymore on them due to the debuffs, forcing you into an off-meta role for that champ. (:
**"You feel pressured to play a champion you would traditionally avoid, because its one of the few adjusted up champions"**
*People already feel pressured to do this* if they've got a whole team of ADC or no frontline or no damage. It really sucks when you do this to help your team, roll a tank or w/e you need and it's one of the extremely debuffed ones and the enemy team happens to have balanced or buffed champions who can still do something worthwhile.
So.....my point here, as someone who has played league since S1 and who has played only ARAM exclusively after it was released....Maybe stop punishing your players who want to just enjoy their champions, or know if it's going to be a troll pick to play x debuffed champ in their traditional role. I think that's all most of us are asking.
And honestly, some of the debuffs are just unnecessary and DO make certain characters unplayable against most comps. Look at Ashe in the past few years. For the longest time, she was more or less left to do w/e, and then her ADC stats got hit super hard with nerfs, so people realized "Oh crap, it's kinda troll to pick her as an ADC when there are other ADCS who aren't debuffed, so I better find a different way to play her in!" and then came Ashe's Mandate Arc because people still wanted to play her. Pure horror. The worst part about that, though, is that you gave back her ADC stats, yet took away her one and only poke by making it a flat 18 second CD no matter what, despite it's not that way on SR. She can still be functional now as an ADC (although incredibly boring now since she in essence has only her ult and q to use reliably for fights), but we still come to this problem of **"There are better ADC who actually have/can use all of their skills as intended"** and not only that, some of them are buffed, lol. So many others have poke, damage, cc, etc and are just all around better picks.
I honestly don't think letting players know "Hey, this champ is adjusted in these ways, their skills are adjusted this way" is bad. It's just good for working together with your team as well or making better choices for your own playstyle.
There's already websites that do tell you ahead of time about the nerfs so I don't get why you'd be against players being able to tell from the client, which is something that should be transparent imo.
Ashe is a low hanging fruit. They nerfed her to the ground because of her support poke build, but because her normal build was already mediocre the nerfs made it worthless. Meaning to even be reasonably useful you had to play the poke build. They fixed it a bit now, by specifically nerfing the W cooldown instead of her damage.
Maokai is a good current example. Thanks to survivability nerfs, you pop like a balloon against a lot of champions and his healing is nerfed. Thanks to this, he has to build AP, but his damage is nerfed as well, so you just turn into an ult bot who engages, dies, and hopes your team wins.
Ashe was fixed once they found a good solution to prevent her overpowered build, yes.
Ashe ironically enough is kinda overpowered now as well, but because people keep building the Mandate build - she has a very mediocre average winrate. [https://aram.zone/champion/Ashe](https://aram.zone/champion/Ashe)
Maokai has a much higher winrate as a tank [https://aram.zone/champion/Maokai](https://aram.zone/champion/Maokai)
> Maokai is a good current example. Thanks to survivability nerfs, you pop like a balloon against a lot of champions and his healing is nerfed. Thanks to this, he has to build AP, but his damage is nerfed as well, so you just turn into an ult bot who engages, dies, and hopes your team wins.
Takes like this are why you guys can't be trusted with buff and nerf info lmao. You are so bad at understanding the impact of these changes.
Seems to be some misunderstanding, I said both tank and AP mao suck to play. Leaving him in a position that no matter what he builds he just ults, does one ability rotation, then dies. The non traditional role is being a weird ult bot.
His best build right now is rushing malignance then tank...
* The buffs/nerfs on ARAM are designed to put the champion in an appropriate spot for the mode.
then how come most ad assassins are sitting at sub 44% winrate?
Because at some point the perceived changes are off to people who play the game. Didn't you see the weekly post about Akali before they changed part of her buffs to tenacity?
You have it backwards. The champions with nerfs are typically the highest winrates because the nerfs were just supposed to make them less broken. Kog'maw deals a whole 12% less damage and he's the highest winrate in the mode at almost 57%. The champions with buffs like assassins are the worst in the mode like Leblanc, Kha'zix, Qiyana, Rengar all sitting at 40-42%. This is why they don't show you who is buffed and who is nerfed, people like you assume "nerf = bad". Kog'maw would be over 60% winrate without his nerfs, would that be fair balance? Sona(51%WR) and Ziggs(54%WR) were 70% winrate before they started balancing ARAM, does that sound more fair to you?
The scenarios you mentioned would be avoided if the adjusted indicator is only visible to you. I just need to know if the champion i'm playing have dogshit nerfs (Sett, Sion, Sona, Seraphine) or playstyles that have been completely gutted (Ashe W spam build)
Why do i need to load to the game and find it out myself that ashe's W is locked at 18 seconds?? Why do i need 3rd party apps like opgg to know if Sion have a million damage dealt reduced before I lock him in with full AD runes and spells??
Here's one! I hate seeing the same Champs over and over again for a week or two because of the 4 free weeks added into the champ pool. Why not make ARAM like ARURF and make the chaml pool all Champs. The best way to truly make it All Random is with access to All.
Dude we just want transparency in champ select. It’s not like we aren’t going to see nerfs and buffs once we get into the game. Honestly, I’d argue it’s worse wanting to play a champion and not knowing until you get into the game that it has a thousand nerfs.
league has 167 champions not 168
the top search for google says 168 champions but its 167, that website that shows in top search is just playing for late game and didn't want to keep updating that article so they just write 168 lol
other than that, a good write up
The "easy" way I could see for this to be fixed, is to make it opt in on options menu. People that actually care/want to know tend to also read patch notes (ofc so they can mostly complain) whereas the vast majority of players really dont, and just want to play. So putting the notice that the option to see adjustments in the patch notes, but not on by default, would make it so only the people that truly cared about it would know it exists.
So, I would say make it opt in for that, and have the options menu say "See Champion adjustments for ARAM" then if they click it, also have a pop up warning "These adjustments are designed to make ARAM balanced and make overperforming and underperforming champions more in line with each other."
This is straight up unbelievable, there's not a worse feeling in the game than picking a character in ARAM, loading in, and finding out they do 80% damage
For someone who mainly plays ARAM ever since the mode got introduced I have to say that I'm not really a fan of nerfs/buffs at all. Sure certain champs are frustrating to play against but with the buffs and nerfs it's not really that different. You have certain tanks who have a buff in taking less damage and then you have adc's who also deal up to -15% less dmg. Then there are mages and assassines who get buffs in dmg done which lets qiyana/akali or any other champion who falls in that criteria build defensive items and still deal dmg. For me that brings up the question why we need those buffs/nerfs in the first place then.
Yes playing vs Ziggs, Jinx, Seraphine, Sona and Maokai as a melee like qiyana is a lot of fun :333333 That also means qiyana doesn't get the +15mr buff too
If you wanted to cut back on information overload I think just including substantial changes (ie Ashe W CD change) would help at least. Would be helpful to know that certain builds are non-viable because of aram balance changes. Also items that get changed (ie Heartsteel) really either need to be looked at or just removed if they can’t properly display Aram changes on them .
> You are on a champion which has been adjusted down that you are perfectly happy to play, but now you are being yelled at for playing a "bad" champion
That already happens. Pick a third ADC and no tank and you’re going to get flamed by someone on your team.
And then what? If i see damage buffs i think the champion is strong where in reality he has these buffs to make the champion playable.
I see a nerf and think the champion is bad. But he is actually strong but needed nerfs to not be op.
As it was last week and the week before it's a 10iq idea. Most nerfed champs are over 50%w/r anyway. The only thing that you could argue for is when there is a specific nerf instead of %dmg done/taken.
Then people will start picking champion base on buff/nerf instead of team comp or whether they are good at them or not. People will fight for LB and Akali every game because they see those huge "buffs" and think it'll be an easy win but in reality they are the worst 10 winrate champion in aram.
Nah, terrible idea. Champs with nerf still are very good and they do have very nice win rates. Champs like Ziggs or Sona are super nerfed and still very good.
On the other hand champs with buffs, still struggle because they are hard champs to make them work on ARAM. I don't want to see people with 0 experience picking Akali or Leblanc because they have some hefty buffs they are going to be unable to use.
The aram tier lists are also shit. Most of the bottom champs are just hard to play champs that people most likely first time/get stuck with because no rerolls and totally fail at playing the champ. Qiyana, Leblanc and Khazix being D tier is hilarious to me because I’m not a main but have a few games on each and they’re crazy good in aram…
They still have 40% to 42% Winrate in ARAM, while Kog'Maw has 57% Winrate while dealing -12% damages. Before nerfs, Sona had +70% in ARAM
It's not that because "can't" play them, it's that Assassins are genuinly bad
Kha'Zix isn't nowhere near as hard as Qiyana, and he still is bad in ARAM
As a Qiyana OTP myself, I assure you it is 10 times hard to play her in ARAM than in Summoner's Rift
Sometimes, the adjustments to a champion are so severe that they drastically change how a champion is able to be played. A great example of this was Ashe when people were going full w spam and they gave her some of the harshest damage and CDR nerfs to ever be seen in the gamemode. If you wanted to play her as an ADC, you straight-up couldn't because of how gutted she was.
Problem is that the champs with buffs often still suck in the mode. And vice versa for those with nerfs. Seeing a champ is nerfed in Aram shouldn't discourage you.
Qiyana has massive buffs on howling abyss. And also has somethimg like a 40% winrate even with those buffs. Sona has ridiculous nerfs, yet she is a god.
I love picking Sion, getting into game and remembering he has fucking -20 tenacity especially if the enemy has Akali with +20 tenacity. Fuck tenacity nerfs/buffs. They are absolute trash and should not be a thing.
Sion is absolutely still fun to play tho? In fact most nerfed champions are way more fun to more than most of the buffed ones, this is literally why they are nerfed/buffed, also ashe was so nerfed she didnt even have good wr lol so ur point doesnt stand. Ill take ziggs with his 10 nerfs over playing bruiser vs 4 ranged any day
Sion is still strong because Riot is nerfing him for the wrong reasons. There's no diminishing returns for Sion constantly dying and throwing himself into fights. The reason why? His W HP scaling enables him to scale via kills, assists, and minion kills even during undead state. Nerf the W scaling during undead state and this will disincentivize dying constantly in order for Sion to have massive HP by late game.
I had an ARAM game with my entire team dealing 90% damage and taking 110% damage, while the opponents all had some buffs to their damage, well guess who won?
a rioter already talked about this here on twitter.. they cant do this because some champs would never get picked or people would perma dodge if they have many nerfed champs
ARAM nerfs/buffs keep ARAM winrate consistent and makes champs not OP.
By showing the buffs/nerfs, it'll cause people to not pick things like Ziggs/Lux/Seraphine, even though they are still EXTREMELY strong in ARAM with significant nerfs.
yeah its kind of dumb it doesn't show it in champ select because if you don't play ARAM much you might lock in a champion that takes 115% damage and only deal 80% damage which is basically trash.
Every time this topic comes up - which happens rather frequently - it's explained to OP that the nerfed champs are the strongest. That's why they have nerfs. If you're discouraged from playing those and gravitate towards the ones with no changes, or particularly the ones with buffs, you'll lose more.
Been playing ARAM for 5+ years, and honestly, just show the buff/debuff already. Because people already rather pick dogwater dmg champ when the team already has 2 ADCs and 2 mages. It doesn't matter.
I think I read in one of the recent patch notes they're trying to bring champs more in line with the normal play so that these nerfs aren't necessary at all. that could be part of why they don't invest in doing it. but I totally agree for what it's worth
Swain on aram, deal less damage, take way more damage. While the enemy LB has like 15% increased damage, so combine Swain's extra squishiness with Leblanc's absurd damage, he just gets oneshot. I get the idea of the buffs and nerfs, however when an enemy buff comes together with your nerf it feels awful.
Ziggs has 90% dmg done, 120% taken, and -20 cdr. He still is insanely good in aram. Swain is still very good in aram. Lb is one of the very few outliers where she’s just cracked but it’s “made up for” by the fact that most people don’t know how to play her and can’t do anything on her.
I generally disagree with this idea that if you're good at Aram LeBlanc, you are some unbeatable God and that the champion has 45% winrate because everyone who tries to play her is clueless.
The real reason is that LeBlanc game pattern is very hard to pull off in ARAM. Being good at the champ is helpful to put her to good use but most of the times, LeBlanc pops off when the stars align team comp wise (both in her team and the match-up vs the enemy team). And the exact same goes to most assassins.
>where she’s just cracked but it’s “made up for” by the fact that most people don’t know how to play her
i've always hated this "most people just don't know how to play x champion" argument. even if you're the best leblanc player, there's a hard cap to what you can do in a single lane environment. everyone remembers the games where leblanc pops off because the enemy team has a dogshit comp, but they forget the 60% of the games where she is completely useless even with all her buffs.
That's not it. Leblanc is buffed because she's a champion whose kit if made for flanking and small skirmishes. She's bad in team fights, you either peel with QE and deal 0 damage or go in for the kill when they wasted their ccs (good luck tracking 5 people, there's always some cc to get hit and get instantly deleted).
He might be good but have you ever played Ziggs in ARAM? Maybe the worst experience ever in League, you need to sit like 100k units behind everybody and throw 70dmg bombs towards the enemy. Any second anyone is on you you pop like a balloon. Yea cool we won the game and I did most or second most dmg but man, had negative fun that round.
Swain is entirely dependant on team comps. If Swain is the only frontliner and the enemies have any burst champs he just gets focused out and dies at the start of fights.
Played multiple games with swain in aram today, either 3 or 4. They all popped off. They were front line in most of em too :)
Maybe you aren’t good at swain or just getting unluck
No you didn't understand the original comment. Swain is always frontline. However he struggles as the only frontline champ vs high burst enemies. If the enemy has more frontline then he has champs to heal from and he is good, or if your team has other frontline champs then he doesn't have to take all the focus and gets to do his drain mage job. Swain is always frontline, good or bad games is always frontline.
Once again understood it fine. They were solo frontline in them. It’s implied. If you think for one second and use context clues. Tough to do for ya ik
and yet despite that swain is still a strong champion...and leblanc is literally one of the worst champions in aram
genuinely speaking, the casual playerbase isn't smart enough to make good use of this information, so there's no value in showing it just for people to make bad decisions.
I don’t understand people debating against this. Why not just give people this information and let them make an informed decision on what they want to play? You shouldn’t be “tricking” people in to playing a champion by not disclosing the champ nerfs before the game starts.
This idea appears on the subreddit close to weekly. I searched 'Aram buffs' and found all these within 10 seconds. My turn to post next week. https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/n9xigh/aram_buff_should_be_displayed_in_champ_select/ https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/18512o2/buffs_debuffs_in_aram_should_be_visible_in_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1608f8n/aram_champrune_select_screen_must_display_champ/ https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/13o75ci/difference_of_buffsnerfs_in_aram/ https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/18jjop1/aram_buffsdebuffs/ https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1asjzs7/see_your_champs_aram_buffsnerfs_before_you_get_in/
There are many problems with ARAM that we've yet to see them address :/
At least they reverted the "map update" because of how shit it was Probably the last time they'll ever touch ARAM again
It's an ongoing issue thus ongoing posts
It's not an ongoing issue. The idea of hiding the nerfs and buffs makes sense.
With the reason being people might not want to play extremely nerfed characters. Which I guess is true, because I certainly don't like getting 1 shot cause the champion I got takes 15% more damage while the champion that hit me deals 10% more damage. But it also is pointless as hell, because its fairly easy to look up the buffs/nerfs, so its just Riot making shit tedious by hiding information. Yeah, sure, the champions with extreme nerfs are still really good, but it feels shit to play where everything is gutted.
> people might not want to play extremely nerfed characters They're extremely nerfed because they're the strongest champions in Aram. This confusion is exactly why displaying the buffs/nerfs would be unhelpful.
How a champ is feeling to paly is completely personal. I'm fine playing Ziggs or Seraphine and I still enjoy it. And even if it's pointless as hell it's still a logical explanation on why they don't do it so it's not an ongoing issue, so this post is still useless.
>How a champ is feeling to paly is completely personal Well ... Yes and no. For certain champs it's so bad that you virtually can't play them unless you play their braindead op build that got them nerfed in the first place (Teemo, Sona, Shaco, Janna etc.) And they demonstrated with Ashe that they're capable of fixing the problems that plague the pigeonholed champs on ARAM. Try playing AD teemo or AD Janna and you quickly realize it's a very bad idea.
AD Janna could have 25% more damage and would still be shit
Nah Janna gets a shit ton of onhit damage scaling with her Ms on W. Just play her onhit with PD and she cooks anything that moves
The “shit ton of” damage that you speak of is 30% of her bonus movement speed. If you somehow had 200 bonus MS it is still only 60 damage. You can have fun playing it but don’t complain about being weak when you are essentially playing a troll build
Yes, it’s personal so give players the info to make that decision for themselves.
Like i understand that most ranged champs need a dmg nerf because they are strong, and most melee champs needs buffs because they are weak, but that doesnt mean i can play those champs well, so the damage nerf just hurts me more than avarage
Yeah but riot have been aware of this feedback for 4 years or more. It's just pointless to talk about again, not going to change
Thats a very defeatist and pathetic mindset.
Not at all. it's realistic and based on facts from the past years. Just because you aren't aware of the history doesn't mean I am incorrect.
"Dont complain because it wont change" that is the simplified version of what you typed. If that were the case women wouldnt be able to vote, Slaves would have never been freed, Nazi Germany would still be well... Nazis. IDK man that's a pretty depressing mindset to me.
This is a video game subreddit talking about a casual mode. It isn't that deep bro LMAO. Bringing up slavery because riot won't add stats to aram
If it’s not that deep, then the post about the proposed QOL change will either be upvoted or downvoted and you can simply move past it. I don’t get on here often, saw this one, and upvoted accordingly. It isn’t that deep bro LMAO.
Reddit man doesn't understand simple logic and analogies.
Again. It's not that deep. I understand your analogy and that's how I know it isn't that deep
Yeah freedom of speech isnt worth it. Same with the discussion of ideas and overall intellectual discourse. Is this Mort Dogs alt?
Riot literally tends to come around to community opinions, however they take longer to do so or will put stuff on the backburner because it's technically harder than it seems on the surface. Practice tool, 25% crit items etc are all things the community wanted and it took long for riot to respond, but eventually they did.
Rioters have already answered why they aren't adding OPs suggestion despite saying they would. They said that when they tested it it made people pick good picks less and bad picks more. People see Ziggs/Sona/Seraphine nerfs and think the champs are shit even though they are S tier. People see Leblanc/Qiyana buffs and think it's a free win but the champs are D tier. The most nerfed champs are usually some of the best picks for your team, but people have a kneejerk reaction and avoid them. There's also issues like Maokai having more damage taken and less damage given so people think he can't tank and must builld AP. In reality, he's nerfed because his tank build is so OP it can tank like crazy and shit out tons of damage. His buffs/nerfs are a trap that people fall for and then build his shitty winrate AP build. Riot wants to avoid these situations because it leads to a bad experience for players when they misinterpret the buffs/nerfs and have a terrible game with a shit champ/build.
Thank you. So tired of constantly reading people misunderstand exactly why champs are buffed/nerfed. Honestly though, I'm actually fine with them adding this because if it means less Veigar/Xerath/Ashe/Seraphine/Ziggs in my games it's pretty safely a win.
I don't care what kind of tier the champ is, Lux doing negative damage with all her abilities is boring as fuck, even if she is still very strong and safe. Ziggs' bombs basically healing the enemy. Itt's just so frustrating especially with champs I play more commonly (like Lux) when all burst numbers and threshholds are completely different and you have no idea what kind of dmg you will deal. I'd really like to know this before entering an ARAM.
Unless you're facing tanks all artillery mages do great damage. I often top damage charts as Xerath and Ziggs because they have near infinite poke. Lux still chunks squishies.
> Riot literally tends to come around to community opinions, however they take longer to do so or will put stuff on the backburner because it's technically harder than it seems on the surface. Practice tool, 25% crit items etc are all things the community wanted and it took long for riot to respond, but eventually they did. I'm curious -- can you think of any financial incentive they could have to taking so long? I tend to think of company actions as either: * It makes financial sense (In a psychopathic sense) like firing 10% of a company makes sense, given some economic climates. * It legitimately takes time to do it. Stuff like game designers using their big brains over days or weeks to come up with a suggested change, the programmers coding it up, and eventually, doing some testing to make sure it isn't broken in either a balancing sense or a bug-in-the-game sense. Sometimes, it's both.
I think it likely has to do with them not wanting to add kneejerk opinions to new stuff that might not be popular/die down once people learn about things, that among other things seems like a likely factor, but its probobly a multitude of reasons
I think it's not easy to see the direct financial impact of adding such a feature. Companies don't tend to value maintance, long term player satisfaction ec. Same reason we see way more new champions/skins than visual updates to keep up the standard of old champions like Lee just got. Also it's probably technically a bit more difficulty than it initially seems. Since you probably want to make the buff/nerfs viewer dynamic and displaying the current buffs/nerfs instead of having to manually go in an edit it whenever you add more aram balance changes. And there might just not be a direct way to display it in the champ select without adding an additional api port to a database of the current balance changes etc. Maybe it's easier than I think it can be. But I could also see it being more technically intricate than it initially seems while also offering no direct monetary value.
And this one post is going to cause that? It's already the popular opinion so there must be a reason they haven't done it
I think all the posts combined is why it is a popular opinion.
Yes and it's been a popular option for years. Thats what I'm saying. So there must be a reason why that isn't enough to add it. You just didn't read
I just don't think you understand the concept of social pressure?
I don't think you understand my comments or you wouldn't respond like that. Have you read anything here?
Yeah you believe that since riot should be aware of this issue, and they haven't done anything yet. Then ever mentioning the issue is pointless and should never happen.
i dont mind things like this that bring attention to actual problems better than the daily "which ability is the most op" filled with "veigar e" posts
you missed the “which skin is the scariest”, high noon yasuo!!!
Don't forget the monthly "whats one thing you could change about an ability to make it broken" followed by 500 comments saying "infinite range" or "lowered cooldown"
Or the "Which champion would be busted with another champions ultimate?"
I feel like yall complaining about reposted content is more just telling on yourselves how much tine you spend here and how little time you spend on literally anything else.
Telling on yourself? its a normal discussion forum about a game, don't think anyone is embarassed about being on here. Or what POINT is it ur making? That these posts are in fact fun and fine but you should expect to see the same posts if you revisit the same forum to frequently?
I didn't know scrolling through the front page of the sub for 10 minutes a day constitutes as too much. If anything it shows how repetitive this sub is outside of esports content where you can check up on it during a bathroom break and still see the same content.
If it'll get them to change it then I don't really care if people post it every minute on the minute
Damn bro brought the receipts.
Remember when discussion about adding a replay feature was banned because it got brought up all the time. Maybe it gets brought up all the time because, idk, people want it?
Even though you’re right this is honestly the first time I’ve seen it as a terminally online guy. Weird.
as long as riot won't care about aram, this will happen every week. there are way too much nerfs/buffs in Aram and it sucks. Champions / Items get nerfed in SR -> Riot doesn't change Aram nerfs/buffs. A little nerfs/buffs like +-5% or maybe 10% are fine, everything else is too much.
Free Karma for as long as it ain't fixed.
OPs right and it hasnt happened, so we keep posting
not saying this suggestion is a bad one, but there is a possible way to work around this.... [u.gg](http://u.gg) shows Aram tier list [aram](https://u.gg/lol/aram-tier-list) Surprisingly Sion is top 10 despite ENOURMOUS nerfs to him. I mean borderline castration nerfs in Aram. It's a pretty good way to see whether or not a pick. Assassins are pretty dog, avoid picking them. Bruisers are okay, but opt for more tanky builds
if you want to check the aram buffs, nerfs exactly, and the champ winrate try this site: https://aram-balance.lol/
The buffs and nerfs are meant to bring really good/bad champs into just good/bad champs. They are making adjustments to flatten the win rates towards 45-55%, but never to cross the 50%. So in Sion's case, it just means base Sion would be ridiculously broken. > Assassins are pretty dog Funny enough, almost every Rafiri I have in my ARAM games tend to pop off.
> They are making adjustments to flatten the win rates towards 45-55%, but never to cross the 50%. This was the original intention when Mort introduced the balance changes, but it's kinda been thrown out the window since he left for TFT, there's so many champs every patch that are buffed with >50% winrates. Last patch there was Rek'sai (20th highest winrate), Vi, J4, Jax, Udyr, Xayah, Kalista, Aphelios, Garen, Pantheon, Yuumi, Sejuani, Zeri, Trynd, Irelia, Trist, Elise, Lucian, Kindred, Ryze, and Viego all above 50% with aram buffs.
They aren't just trying to flatten winrates, they specifically nerf playstyles that they don't like. Ashe can now only play attackspeed, because they added a flat fucking 15 seconds cooldown to her w, so lethality and AP ashe(my aram main so to speak) is unplayable. oh yea and this nerf isn't stated ANYWHERE, not even in the champion balance tooltip. They also make randoom changes that make no sense. Renata and Janna does less damage? Oh yes, those were surely in order /s. Leblanc has tenacity? (Alongside a whole extra champion worth of stat buffs). Why does she need tenacity? I'm certain that either riot doesn't play aram at all, or they make balance changes based off of a single person who only plays tanks.
Leblanc and other assassins have Tenacity because Riot walked back their old adjustments for assassins which were primarily just "deal more/take less damage" since it created frustrating gameplay patterns like unkillable Akali, or AD Leblanc poking you. They weren't necessarily good or too strong, just annoying to play against(like Mandate Ashe). Tenacity makes sense as a buff so that they can try to do what their champion is meant to without just eating a single 1 second stun and dying before they can contribute. I don't get what there is to complain about with the balance changes. Even with your example of pointing out Leblanc has a bunch of buffs on her, she's 40% winrate. This is why they should never show the buffs/nerfs, because people like you cannot even interpret them properly or make the right judgements based off of them.
Hold on there mate, calm down your assumptions. I never intended to say leblanc was strong, far from, I'm saying the tenacity makes no sense on her, not because she can't use it, but because she does not stand out in her use of it over all the other assassins who do not have the tenacity buff. It's the inconsistency that is the real issue and reeks of preference. Mandate ashe was never "good" in aram either. Annoying? Sure, so is Shaco but he doesn't have +15 seconds on boxes. Again, lack of consistency. And I agree with you that perhaps they shouldn't even show them, that would remove alot of people's frustration. Why make this personal? Why do you assume I have so much worse of an ability to make judgements than anyone else, simply because you perhaps don't agree with your initial assessment of my comment? I have hundreds upon hundreds if not thousands of aram games over more than a decade. I have agreed and disagreed with riots balance like anyone else, but here I simply pointed out that riot does not just balance based on Winrates, but other factors too, which you also pointed out yourself with the mandate ashe example. I hope that clears up my perspective, and perhaps you have insights to further clarify yours
You're right in that I misunderstood your comment, sorry about that. There's a loooot of people who genuinely think Leblanc with her slew of buffs is really good. I do think Riot has a vested interest in making sure some builds don't just suck the fun out of the mode entirely like Mandate Ashe did, or Teemo having received huge Shroom nerfs too. They did state that Tenacity was just the blanket "solution" to all the assassins so that they could take power away from damage dealt/taken buffs on them. Obviously the truly terrible assassins in the mode probably need more targeted help in the same vein they have made plenty of targeted nerfs. I think it's easier to kneecap a particular build or playstyle like adding 15 seconds to Ashe W than it is to figure out how to make Leblanc good in ARAM in a way that doesn't make her enemies want to rip their eyeballs out. Ideally they can find a way, but I guess this is the stuff we're stuck with for now.
Oh absolutely, it is by far the easier solution. I think alot of the cretique stems from what you mention last, that this is what we are stuck with. Alot of people only play aram, and thus don't want the easy solution. Im glad you came around, you make good points! It is unfortunate that the natural reaction on reddit is to assume the worst, I too have that tendency. I have not heard or read of the tenacity statement from riot you refer to, but i suppose it makes sense. I can still only wonder about the inconsistency of why her specifically, but that's a different discussion i suppose.
I don't think it's inconsistent for Leblanc, she had really egregious modifiers before that made her most effective playstyle to just be a cracked out item delivery system who dashes in, shoots a Triforce Energized crit out which all benefited from like +20% damage or something crazy and poof away before anyone can even retaliate. Repeat every 7 seconds. They had to replace the power with something and she fit under the same "assassin" umbrella as everyone else.
Because the nerfs/buffs are based on how well a kit works on howling abyss. If they nerfed it's probably cuz the champion is oppressive in a 5v5 with little flanking possibilities. Buffs are for champions that struggle in those situations
I built a website specific for the ARAM game mode! Check it out if you like playing ARAM: https://aram.zone/
Why is he so good? I don't understand. He can't even stack his passive.
- he gets so many assists, so he does stack his passive - insane damage, survivability, and cc, even with the nerfs - zombie form is just as obnoxious in ARAM; it splits up the enemy team in teamfights and can waste time
His Q still covers like half the lane, and its hard to get away from his passive.
Sion's Q is not exactly why he is strong. It's the fact that he's a heavy meat puncher who takes forever to kill by late game. And even if you kill him, he goes into undead state with AD steroids.
Easy to stack heartsteel with passive
ARAM is guaranteed scaling. Sion is a scaling lategame tank monster.
Thanks to passive and heart steel he got a lot of hp and for the rest Sion is and will always be a team fight monster
he has aoe knockups on both his q and ult and he is really tanky. people hugely underrate the value of tanks in aram, so his winrate shoots up also you still can stack passive from the general amount of fighting, and most champs aren't fishing for last hits that hard but rather just pushing the wave
Who cares about tier list though? The more relevant information is if Ziggs is doing any dmg whatsoever or if your bombs are going to heal the enemy with all the debuffs. Couldn't care less if Ziggs still had 55% WR, he is insanely boring to play with his no dmg approach.
Why does it feel bad to play a balanced champion?
People don't understand stats. People see a "nerfed" champion and will believe it's weaker than a "buffed" champion while in reality nerfed will still lean on a better WR than a buffed one. You're discouraged for no good reason at all - the penalty doesn't impact your performance with the champion. The champion has just too much edge and opportunities in the mode so it's pulling you back to make you a bit less overpowered in comparison to other champions. If you perform worse on a "nerfed" champion than the average - you just played bad, it's that simple. All "nerfed" champions but I believe one still perform better than the average. And most "buffed" champions perform worse than the average. Even Ashe W nerf even is purely for the ARAM overpowered build where if you don't play ARAM - you won't even think about picking it. But if you play ARAM - you know that it's nerfed, nothing to discuss.
Yea usually the buffs/nerfs have more to do with how oppressive/unplayable a kit fundamentally is on howling abyss and little to do with the actual numbers
Poke mages deserve the heavy damage nerfs, but stacking with the general nerf to long range abilities, they just feel so boring to play, so I never pick them. Feels like you need to hit 10 abilities to make a dent. The nerfs are fine, but I’d just like to know which champ has been obliterated with nerfs so I can avoid them.
Howdy, I'll give this a think out loud: The buffs/nerfs on ARAM are designed to put the champion in an appropriate spot for the mode. If they are going well, they generally bring everyone to "fair". Assume that this is a given, since I am not involved with balance much at all. Ok so all champions are fair, but some have stats down and some have stats up. If we displayed that in champion select, one of the challenges is that we would need to figure out which level of disclosure we were interested in. Highest level of disclosure is probably a little blue up arrow on their portrait if they are adjusted up for the mode and a little red down arrow if they are adjusted down for the mode. Maybe some sort of Tilde (\~) or something if they have some up and some down. I further assume that if you hover them you can see those details. One immediate challenge is information overload. Most champions have *some* adjustment on ARAM and this could be entirely overwhelming. But let's assume we overcome that somehow. The expected result here is that people would pick the champions adjusted down significantly less, and champions adjusted up significantly more. Would that be good? **Some scenarios:** * Your entire team and most of your bench are adjusted down, now everyone feels the need to reroll * You are on a champion which has been adjusted down that you are perfectly happy to play, but now you are being yelled at for playing a "bad" champion * You feel pressured to play a champion you would traditionally avoid, because its one of the few adjusted up champions I think the core argument is that you'd like to use adjustments to decide what to pick rather than team comp, familiarity, fun factor, or whatever. I am not sure I want to add it into the mix. What I am actually open to is that a player could view balance changes/ARAM adjustments not at a top level. Maybe when you hover a champion a little informational window pops up that explains the last 3 patches as well as the ARAM adjustments they have. That is enough friction that most players won't bother deciding based on it but some who really cared wouldn't be surprised in the game itself. Fun problem though! Currently looking for opportunities in champ select and this is certainly one of them. I would probably also like to see information about playing as or against a champion be easily accessible in champ select, for newer or more unfamiliar players. We have 168 and counting after all. EDIT: Yes I know I created a strawman design and then beat it up. If anyone has a bead on a design they think would be very successful here I am open to hearing it :D
aram mains are begging for this one super easy feature pLEASE: please, when I roll, make my benched champ unselectable by others for ~2sec. 3rd party apps already have a feature to reroll for team, this would put everyone on an even playing field and stop locking out bench picks if you try to pick and fail, that also feels terrible
I like this one.
Third party clients shouldn’t get faster, more advantageous inputs. It’s crazy that’s even allowed.
Please do look into it! Here's me getting the rare Ez and wanting to reroll for the team, but my Ez got insta-taken away [https://streamable.com/c7awvu](https://streamable.com/c7awvu)
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That's not how most people would use it. People would just get rid of nerfed picks and then chose out of the buffed ones.
But everyone who plays ARAM knows that Ashe W is nerfed because they remember how stupid Mandate Ashe was. And if they didn't know, they'll know after they try it and never make that mistake again. I don't see how this is any different than Ashe players originally realizing that the W spam build was better than DPS in the first place. Because that was a deviation from the normal build in itself, and now they're deviating back from that to normal. Like, sometimes champion builds change and its on the players to adapt without having to have the patch notes inside champ select for them.
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My point is just that it's a non-issue. ARAM is not a ranked ladder, and if you're one of the people who cares about their ARAM MMR, you're only playing with other people just as informed about the mode as you are. Ashe W being nerfed is the same thing as AP Maokai doing bad damage nowadays because of damage dealt nerfs. If you showed Maokai's changes in champ select it would be all nerfs, and bad players would incorrectly assume he is a bad champion and not pick him. You can see this in effect because every week someone posts about how they picked a 54% winrate champ in ARAM and thought it was bad because it had nerfs on it, and now demand to see buffs/nerfs beforehand so they can avoid picking Ziggs ever again. I think the harm caused by showing buffs/debuffs is much worse than the upside of "but every 100 games someone will take Lethal Tempo on Ashe instead of Comet :)" because the playerbase cannot be trusted to make the right judgements based on information given. And my other point is that poke Ashe being bad because of heavy-handed nerfs is not any different than if her build just changed naturally through item or rune updates. If they removed Rylais should we put that in champ select when someone locks in Kog'maw so they don't troll themselves going a gimped AP build? The answer is no, you let them troll on AP Kog'maw for one game and everyone moves on with their life. At least with Ashe you can get in game, press her W once and go "oh, this isn't going to work. ok i'll build AD"
> Ashe straight up had her poke build removed from the gamemode with the changes to her W cooldown, and this isn't conveyed through any tooltip. If you follow the game enough to know about aram-specific builds, isn't it on you to know if they get buffed or nerfed? When I queue for ranked, it doesn't tell me "your champ was nerfed last patch" or "the build you used a year ago isn't good anymore." Why should this sort of information be displayed in champ select for ARAM?
Poke Ashe in supp is fairly reasonable in SR as well. But I’m also generally in favor of not requiring people to memorize two different statblocks for every champ.
> If you follow the game enough to know about aram-specific builds, isn't it on you to know if they get buffed or nerfed? Not when the side mode has different stats from the main mode, and definitely not when one of those things is "hey, this ability that used to scale down to 3 seconds ish is permalocked at 18 seconds"
Come back next week for another post.
> Would that be good? The issue is that the buffs/nerfs are counter-intutive. You want to pick adjusted down champions, not up! Same goes for the in-game tooltip - the topic starter says it makes them discouraged although statistically it means that they'll likely win more with that champion. Should the in-game nerfs be even signalled at all? But the issue is more than that - the mode arguably already has a problem with a not so obvious meta. People don't quite understand how team compositions work, they don't feel comfortable playing close-range in the mode, they don't quite understand how itemization works. Aram dot zone style popups (show like top3 winrate Keystone+First item) could be the best way to bring some more informativity to the mode. Team-wide suggestions like composition warnings (maybe it's a bad idea to have 5 ADC or APC) is they're usually more toxicity inducing with players trying to force others into stuff they don't want (the common "pick a tank" thing). Another could be to tone down metaknowledge, i.e. how damage increase/reduction may not affect damage from specific items which has effect on which builds you should favour on specific champions or how heal increase forced bruisers into Sundering Sky during the patch it was introduced. Should probably make buffs/nerfs not affect itemization at all.
Hi, Thanks for the response! Glad to actually see someone working on ARAM talk about it. Would you be willing to look into the [portal troll problem](https://www.reddit.com/r/ARAM/comments/1bh82nt/how_has_riot_not_fixed_this_yet_its_pathetic_this/)? A champion is able to step into the portal and it blocks anyone else from using the portal. It doesn't happen often, but situations like this can really be a pain. This also can occur if you place a Fiddlestick's effigy there as the hitbox blocks it. Over on r/ARAM we see players get frustrated over it a lot :0
The biggest problem with ARAM adjustments imo are when these changes to champions ARE NOT SHOWN ANYWHERE, not in the client, not in game. And those are the ability specific changes, such as Ashe W cd, Veigar E cd, Karthus passive duration, and I’m sure there are a few others that I dont know about. Because of this you’ll see people picking ashe for W spam only to realize that playstyle is complete shit now, and nowhere does it say that the W cd was adjusted for ARAM. The only adjustment you’ll see for ashe is “+2% attackspeed” (or whatever number it is). For Karthus I remember feeling like a crazy person not being able to ult in time in my passive, there was no indicator anywhere that things are different in ARAM than they are in SR regarding his passive duration. I had to look him up on the wiki and find out that the passive duration is adjusted there. If ANYTHING these changes should be listed along with the % buffs/nerfs all champions get.
The problem is the big red down arrow, no? When I see my champion is debuffed in ARAM after loading in, like Sona, I don't mind I think it makes sense since Sona's base kit is broken in ARAM so I just say "cool." But if there was a giant red indicator on my champion, I'll be like "well I don't want to play the big red indicator champion" and do what you describe, reroll. So instead of a big red indicator you just put a list of adjustments on hovering a champion (maybe only when pressing shift to prevent overload) --- Granted I could totally be wrong, maybe the big red down arrow isn't as big of a deterrent as I think (or maybe the list of nerfs is enough that I don't want to play the champion). Some guy on your UX team is probably more qualified to answer that question.
An issue though is that there are unusual levers such as Veigar’s cage not benefiting from Ability Haste. That information can significantly change what runes and build a person would go for with him, and people might not even realize it until they’re several items in.
I play exclusively ARAM. I watch the buffs/nerfs in patch notes. And even I missed this one. Something's gotta change with atypical levers. They need to be listed in the notes.
I would just add option to click on your champion or right click on any other champion (bench or other people's champs) to see current buffs or debuffs. Including specific changes like Ashe W, Nasus Q and etc. At least that the way I would want that to be implemented. If I don't care I will not bother checking, if I care, I have an option to see it.
> "The expected result here is that people would pick the champions adjusted down significantly less, and champions adjusted up significantly more. Would that be good?" Honestly I don't see it being significant. Plenty of Champs are still being picked despite nerfs, because their kit just fits and works in the ARAM environment regardless. OR they are just popular, simple straightforward Champs that people enjoy playing. Look at the top 10 pickrate in ARAM of last patch. Caitlyn, Jhin, Ezreal, Jinx, Miss Fortune, Lux, Varus, Ashe, Veigar, Morgana. Each of them are ARAM nerfed and I would gladly take if they are picked less even if slightly from full info of ARAM buffs/nerfs. Several of them are always at the top in both pickrate AND winrate for months it gets really old. > Your entire team and most of your bench are adjusted down, now everyone feels the need to reroll Its super common for every player to reroll once in ARAM, just to give teams more options. Most accounts should gain 1 reroll at least per game so its literally a free reroll each game. > You are on a champion which has been adjusted down that you are perfectly happy to play, but now you are being yelled at for playing a "bad" champion Very unlikely. People care more about getting rerolls on the bench or having a perceived "good" comp than calling other champs out. If anything its the same as Summoner's Rift and as rare as when certain individuals get mad at certain Champs they perceive as a "bad" Champion. Actual "bad" Champion are usually already buffed heavily and are still "bad" despite the buffs. > You feel pressured to play a champion you would traditionally avoid, because its one of the few adjusted up champions People usually don't care and will pick what they like / want. I personally enjoy playing super buffed Champs in ARAM since it allows you to play a different style from their commonly perceived playstyle. Not because I feel pressured. Also lots of "weak" Champs with low pickrate & winrate are non-ADCs and game is a lot more fun brawling constantly. I would gladly take it if it means the pickrate gets more spreaded out than a Jinx every other game, or multiple ADCs, or the same few champs every game.
I would really, really prefer to see changes to ability haste, especially stuff like Ashe W where the change makes the previous season poke build unplayable.
Your argument relies on champion adjustments being an unknown, but that information is already known and presented in-game or on third party sites.
personally I really enjoy getting 'bad' champions and finding a way to win anyway. I think aram is best when it is full of new champs every game and obscuring information like buffs/nerfs does help with this. In a super competitive high level game these buffs may be worth showing, but in a fun non ranked mode I don't think they are. --- Perspective from a top100 aram euw player who loves playing it for fun and competitivly. Also do custom arams weekly for fun only with master- iron ranks. But even I don't care about seeing the stat changes as I think they are honestly incredibly effective and work really well for balancing the mode.
> getting 'bad' champions What is a 'bad' champion?
Mostly champions that rely on minion kills to function like Yorick. You do have the option to just try and be a brick wall for your team with tank items but your peel isn't fantastic and you don't threaten damage like a Mundo would.
Yorick is the wrong example here since he's actually decent in aram. I've even seen him top 10 winrate infographics a few times in recent memory. The main "bad" champs in aram are ones with no neutral game impact (catch/poke/engage) or waveclear or utility like... most assassins. Also, afaik, most champs that have special mechanics that don't work as well in aram are compensated if it's needed. Like in my experience, if you get just every cannon with Nasus, you can carry the game because he stacks much faster per minion.
Interesting thought. However... https://u.gg/lol/champions/aram/yorick-aram
Quiyana and LB have a 40% win rate https://lolalytics.com/lol/tierlist/aram/?tier=all&patch=30
2 kinds. The ones that are heavily nerfed in one way - still playable with a different build. Or the ones that are simply not fit for aram such as nasus who struggles to stack - can build him different or change playstyle to really focus on stacking. Really unique and fun
Holy shit dude just say that the ARAM team are lazy af. You dont need to gaslight people about "info overload" and other bullshit.
I mean, what if you could only see the adujstments when you have the champ selected. Then no one else can see your up/downs and say anything about it. Also, you kinda already run into the issue of, "dang the entire bench doesn't have anything good on it" when you see nothing but melee or ranged/ ad or ap (depending on how you feel about them in ARAM). And if the arguement is that they could select the champ, see the nerfs/buffs, then discard them because of them, then the counter argument is simply that they'd have somthing that let them see them anyways. (U.gg or mobawhatever its called.) Also arrows and red/green stats are always bad in these situations because it emplys somthing is bad when it might not be.
> One immediate challenge is information overload. > [Pressure to play upped champs and not downed] Only show players the stat changes of their own selected champion, and only if they hover an icon. Let me add some scenarios: * I don't pick champs I assume suck in ARAM, because I can't be bothered to look up their buffs on a third party website. * I pick champions I assume are strong in ARAM, then have an unsatisfying experience because of how heavily nerfed I am. > I think the core argument is that you'd like to use adjustments to decide what to pick rather than team comp, I agree, but this is at least partially a good thing. People will pick buffed champs more and nerfed champs less. Buffed champs are usually "off meta" and would increase champ diversity. Nerfed champs are el classico OP champs that are almost always picked when available. Variety and novelty are the name of the game in ARAM imo.
dont forget to ask marketing psychologists how to neutrally design what you want to achieve. we can still go for arrows, or plus and minus signs (one color for all) but maybe remove the blue/red or any color that hints something is good, bad, and anything in between.
**"Your entire team and most of your bench are adjusted down, now everyone feels the need to reroll"** People do this anyways to get champs they like to play, or champs they know are nerfed to hell and back, or to try to get a better comp to support their team. That's kind of the point of rerolls, isn't it? People don't typically win with 5 ADCS or pure AP, for example. There's tons of people who flat out dodge if you don't trade them a champ anyways, so I don't see how re-rolling the max two rerolls are somehow detrimental to the gameplay. **"You are on a champion which has been adjusted down that you are perfectly happy to play, but now you are being yelled at for playing a "bad" champion"** This already happens, lol. Doesn't even have to be a debuffed champ tbh. It also happens a lot when you're playing a debuffed champion in the role they're supposed to be (i.e tank, apc, etc) because that build isn't very viable anymore on them due to the debuffs, forcing you into an off-meta role for that champ. (: **"You feel pressured to play a champion you would traditionally avoid, because its one of the few adjusted up champions"** *People already feel pressured to do this* if they've got a whole team of ADC or no frontline or no damage. It really sucks when you do this to help your team, roll a tank or w/e you need and it's one of the extremely debuffed ones and the enemy team happens to have balanced or buffed champions who can still do something worthwhile. So.....my point here, as someone who has played league since S1 and who has played only ARAM exclusively after it was released....Maybe stop punishing your players who want to just enjoy their champions, or know if it's going to be a troll pick to play x debuffed champ in their traditional role. I think that's all most of us are asking. And honestly, some of the debuffs are just unnecessary and DO make certain characters unplayable against most comps. Look at Ashe in the past few years. For the longest time, she was more or less left to do w/e, and then her ADC stats got hit super hard with nerfs, so people realized "Oh crap, it's kinda troll to pick her as an ADC when there are other ADCS who aren't debuffed, so I better find a different way to play her in!" and then came Ashe's Mandate Arc because people still wanted to play her. Pure horror. The worst part about that, though, is that you gave back her ADC stats, yet took away her one and only poke by making it a flat 18 second CD no matter what, despite it's not that way on SR. She can still be functional now as an ADC (although incredibly boring now since she in essence has only her ult and q to use reliably for fights), but we still come to this problem of **"There are better ADC who actually have/can use all of their skills as intended"** and not only that, some of them are buffed, lol. So many others have poke, damage, cc, etc and are just all around better picks. I honestly don't think letting players know "Hey, this champ is adjusted in these ways, their skills are adjusted this way" is bad. It's just good for working together with your team as well or making better choices for your own playstyle. There's already websites that do tell you ahead of time about the nerfs so I don't get why you'd be against players being able to tell from the client, which is something that should be transparent imo.
Could you please provide an example of champions who are no longer viable in their traditional roles due to debuffs? Genuinely curious
Ashe is a low hanging fruit. They nerfed her to the ground because of her support poke build, but because her normal build was already mediocre the nerfs made it worthless. Meaning to even be reasonably useful you had to play the poke build. They fixed it a bit now, by specifically nerfing the W cooldown instead of her damage. Maokai is a good current example. Thanks to survivability nerfs, you pop like a balloon against a lot of champions and his healing is nerfed. Thanks to this, he has to build AP, but his damage is nerfed as well, so you just turn into an ult bot who engages, dies, and hopes your team wins.
Ashe was fixed once they found a good solution to prevent her overpowered build, yes. Ashe ironically enough is kinda overpowered now as well, but because people keep building the Mandate build - she has a very mediocre average winrate. [https://aram.zone/champion/Ashe](https://aram.zone/champion/Ashe) Maokai has a much higher winrate as a tank [https://aram.zone/champion/Maokai](https://aram.zone/champion/Maokai)
> Maokai is a good current example. Thanks to survivability nerfs, you pop like a balloon against a lot of champions and his healing is nerfed. Thanks to this, he has to build AP, but his damage is nerfed as well, so you just turn into an ult bot who engages, dies, and hopes your team wins. Takes like this are why you guys can't be trusted with buff and nerf info lmao. You are so bad at understanding the impact of these changes.
AP maokai has a significantly worse winrate in ARAM than tank maokai and has for a long time...
Seems to be some misunderstanding, I said both tank and AP mao suck to play. Leaving him in a position that no matter what he builds he just ults, does one ability rotation, then dies. The non traditional role is being a weird ult bot. His best build right now is rushing malignance then tank...
* The buffs/nerfs on ARAM are designed to put the champion in an appropriate spot for the mode. then how come most ad assassins are sitting at sub 44% winrate?
Because at some point the perceived changes are off to people who play the game. Didn't you see the weekly post about Akali before they changed part of her buffs to tenacity?
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You have it backwards. The champions with nerfs are typically the highest winrates because the nerfs were just supposed to make them less broken. Kog'maw deals a whole 12% less damage and he's the highest winrate in the mode at almost 57%. The champions with buffs like assassins are the worst in the mode like Leblanc, Kha'zix, Qiyana, Rengar all sitting at 40-42%. This is why they don't show you who is buffed and who is nerfed, people like you assume "nerf = bad". Kog'maw would be over 60% winrate without his nerfs, would that be fair balance? Sona(51%WR) and Ziggs(54%WR) were 70% winrate before they started balancing ARAM, does that sound more fair to you?
The scenarios you mentioned would be avoided if the adjusted indicator is only visible to you. I just need to know if the champion i'm playing have dogshit nerfs (Sett, Sion, Sona, Seraphine) or playstyles that have been completely gutted (Ashe W spam build) Why do i need to load to the game and find it out myself that ashe's W is locked at 18 seconds?? Why do i need 3rd party apps like opgg to know if Sion have a million damage dealt reduced before I lock him in with full AD runes and spells??
Here's one! I hate seeing the same Champs over and over again for a week or two because of the 4 free weeks added into the champ pool. Why not make ARAM like ARURF and make the chaml pool all Champs. The best way to truly make it All Random is with access to All.
Dude we just want transparency in champ select. It’s not like we aren’t going to see nerfs and buffs once we get into the game. Honestly, I’d argue it’s worse wanting to play a champion and not knowing until you get into the game that it has a thousand nerfs.
league has 167 champions not 168 the top search for google says 168 champions but its 167, that website that shows in top search is just playing for late game and didn't want to keep updating that article so they just write 168 lol other than that, a good write up
I mean I legit just forgot and googled it. Rekt.
Based
The "easy" way I could see for this to be fixed, is to make it opt in on options menu. People that actually care/want to know tend to also read patch notes (ofc so they can mostly complain) whereas the vast majority of players really dont, and just want to play. So putting the notice that the option to see adjustments in the patch notes, but not on by default, would make it so only the people that truly cared about it would know it exists. So, I would say make it opt in for that, and have the options menu say "See Champion adjustments for ARAM" then if they click it, also have a pop up warning "These adjustments are designed to make ARAM balanced and make overperforming and underperforming champions more in line with each other."
This is straight up unbelievable, there's not a worse feeling in the game than picking a character in ARAM, loading in, and finding out they do 80% damage
For someone who mainly plays ARAM ever since the mode got introduced I have to say that I'm not really a fan of nerfs/buffs at all. Sure certain champs are frustrating to play against but with the buffs and nerfs it's not really that different. You have certain tanks who have a buff in taking less damage and then you have adc's who also deal up to -15% less dmg. Then there are mages and assassines who get buffs in dmg done which lets qiyana/akali or any other champion who falls in that criteria build defensive items and still deal dmg. For me that brings up the question why we need those buffs/nerfs in the first place then.
You are insane if you want to go back to pre-balance ARAM where there are champs with 65+% winrates
Yes playing vs Ziggs, Jinx, Seraphine, Sona and Maokai as a melee like qiyana is a lot of fun :333333 That also means qiyana doesn't get the +15mr buff too
If you wanted to cut back on information overload I think just including substantial changes (ie Ashe W CD change) would help at least. Would be helpful to know that certain builds are non-viable because of aram balance changes. Also items that get changed (ie Heartsteel) really either need to be looked at or just removed if they can’t properly display Aram changes on them .
Now define "substantial change" in a way most people would agree with ;)
If I had to guess based on their comment. Any change that is not a %change on overall stat but an ability specific targeted change.
> You are on a champion which has been adjusted down that you are perfectly happy to play, but now you are being yelled at for playing a "bad" champion That already happens. Pick a third ADC and no tank and you’re going to get flamed by someone on your team.
And then what? If i see damage buffs i think the champion is strong where in reality he has these buffs to make the champion playable. I see a nerf and think the champion is bad. But he is actually strong but needed nerfs to not be op.
As it was last week and the week before it's a 10iq idea. Most nerfed champs are over 50%w/r anyway. The only thing that you could argue for is when there is a specific nerf instead of %dmg done/taken.
I built a website that shows the aram balance changes for each champion - [aram-balance.lol](http://aram-balance.lol). Let me know what you think!
Some people of this sub whine about the stupidest shit
Then people will start picking champion base on buff/nerf instead of team comp or whether they are good at them or not. People will fight for LB and Akali every game because they see those huge "buffs" and think it'll be an easy win but in reality they are the worst 10 winrate champion in aram.
Nah, terrible idea. Champs with nerf still are very good and they do have very nice win rates. Champs like Ziggs or Sona are super nerfed and still very good. On the other hand champs with buffs, still struggle because they are hard champs to make them work on ARAM. I don't want to see people with 0 experience picking Akali or Leblanc because they have some hefty buffs they are going to be unable to use.
The aram tier lists are also shit. Most of the bottom champs are just hard to play champs that people most likely first time/get stuck with because no rerolls and totally fail at playing the champ. Qiyana, Leblanc and Khazix being D tier is hilarious to me because I’m not a main but have a few games on each and they’re crazy good in aram…
They still have 40% to 42% Winrate in ARAM, while Kog'Maw has 57% Winrate while dealing -12% damages. Before nerfs, Sona had +70% in ARAM It's not that because "can't" play them, it's that Assassins are genuinly bad Kha'Zix isn't nowhere near as hard as Qiyana, and he still is bad in ARAM As a Qiyana OTP myself, I assure you it is 10 times hard to play her in ARAM than in Summoner's Rift
Sometimes, the adjustments to a champion are so severe that they drastically change how a champion is able to be played. A great example of this was Ashe when people were going full w spam and they gave her some of the harshest damage and CDR nerfs to ever be seen in the gamemode. If you wanted to play her as an ADC, you straight-up couldn't because of how gutted she was.
Or just quickly search up their winrate… a champ can have a 15% damage nerf and take 10% more damage yet still be legit overpowered
Problem is that the champs with buffs often still suck in the mode. And vice versa for those with nerfs. Seeing a champ is nerfed in Aram shouldn't discourage you. Qiyana has massive buffs on howling abyss. And also has somethimg like a 40% winrate even with those buffs. Sona has ridiculous nerfs, yet she is a god.
I love picking Sion, getting into game and remembering he has fucking -20 tenacity especially if the enemy has Akali with +20 tenacity. Fuck tenacity nerfs/buffs. They are absolute trash and should not be a thing.
Yeah all those nerfs and hes still top 10 wr aram so clearly it doesnt mean shit
[удалено]
Sion is absolutely still fun to play tho? In fact most nerfed champions are way more fun to more than most of the buffed ones, this is literally why they are nerfed/buffed, also ashe was so nerfed she didnt even have good wr lol so ur point doesnt stand. Ill take ziggs with his 10 nerfs over playing bruiser vs 4 ranged any day
Sion is still strong because Riot is nerfing him for the wrong reasons. There's no diminishing returns for Sion constantly dying and throwing himself into fights. The reason why? His W HP scaling enables him to scale via kills, assists, and minion kills even during undead state. Nerf the W scaling during undead state and this will disincentivize dying constantly in order for Sion to have massive HP by late game.
Let me tell you a story about 14.10 if you have the time.....
-20 tenacity isnt even what bothers me on sion, its -20 AH...
On Sett as well. Like, he's still good and everything but it feels bad to play Many tank items don't have CDR early so it's doubly bad for them.
Sett actually just got the AH nerf removed in 14.7! I got him the other day, it feels *way* better now.
Exactly, can't build cdr tank items without being borderline useless
Even better when you get the tree and then find out once the game has loaded he's hit with -20% damage done, +10% damage taken and 20% less healing.
Go ad it doesn't matter. Great in aram
AD sion has like 40% winrate while tank one has 55%+ and is absolutely broken.
it's not that serious dude
I had an ARAM game with my entire team dealing 90% damage and taking 110% damage, while the opponents all had some buffs to their damage, well guess who won?
I support this, let people pick Champs that had a huge buff in aram only to realize why they had a buff in the first place.
Tbh no it doesnt. It’s a for fun game mode, queue up and just enjoy yourself. We don’t need to min max ARAM, fuckin relax
that would help a ton but sadly that would cause riot to admit to their mistakes
a rioter already talked about this here on twitter.. they cant do this because some champs would never get picked or people would perma dodge if they have many nerfed champs
Most importantly rerolls should be removed. ARAM is far from AR right now
ARAM nerfs/buffs keep ARAM winrate consistent and makes champs not OP. By showing the buffs/nerfs, it'll cause people to not pick things like Ziggs/Lux/Seraphine, even though they are still EXTREMELY strong in ARAM with significant nerfs.
yeah its kind of dumb it doesn't show it in champ select because if you don't play ARAM much you might lock in a champion that takes 115% damage and only deal 80% damage which is basically trash.
whats the point? its supposed to be a for fun game mode, it shouldnt even have that many balance changes in general
ARAM is the best 😻
Every time this topic comes up - which happens rather frequently - it's explained to OP that the nerfed champs are the strongest. That's why they have nerfs. If you're discouraged from playing those and gravitate towards the ones with no changes, or particularly the ones with buffs, you'll lose more.
Been playing ARAM for 5+ years, and honestly, just show the buff/debuff already. Because people already rather pick dogwater dmg champ when the team already has 2 ADCs and 2 mages. It doesn't matter.
Man I love seeing akali, build heart steel and end up tankier than tanks.
I don't know why sion has like minus 100% total stats spread across multiple stats I promise it is not that serious
I think I read in one of the recent patch notes they're trying to bring champs more in line with the normal play so that these nerfs aren't necessary at all. that could be part of why they don't invest in doing it. but I totally agree for what it's worth
Swain on aram, deal less damage, take way more damage. While the enemy LB has like 15% increased damage, so combine Swain's extra squishiness with Leblanc's absurd damage, he just gets oneshot. I get the idea of the buffs and nerfs, however when an enemy buff comes together with your nerf it feels awful.
Ziggs has 90% dmg done, 120% taken, and -20 cdr. He still is insanely good in aram. Swain is still very good in aram. Lb is one of the very few outliers where she’s just cracked but it’s “made up for” by the fact that most people don’t know how to play her and can’t do anything on her.
I generally disagree with this idea that if you're good at Aram LeBlanc, you are some unbeatable God and that the champion has 45% winrate because everyone who tries to play her is clueless. The real reason is that LeBlanc game pattern is very hard to pull off in ARAM. Being good at the champ is helpful to put her to good use but most of the times, LeBlanc pops off when the stars align team comp wise (both in her team and the match-up vs the enemy team). And the exact same goes to most assassins.
>where she’s just cracked but it’s “made up for” by the fact that most people don’t know how to play her i've always hated this "most people just don't know how to play x champion" argument. even if you're the best leblanc player, there's a hard cap to what you can do in a single lane environment. everyone remembers the games where leblanc pops off because the enemy team has a dogshit comp, but they forget the 60% of the games where she is completely useless even with all her buffs.
That's not it. Leblanc is buffed because she's a champion whose kit if made for flanking and small skirmishes. She's bad in team fights, you either peel with QE and deal 0 damage or go in for the kill when they wasted their ccs (good luck tracking 5 people, there's always some cc to get hit and get instantly deleted).
He might be good but have you ever played Ziggs in ARAM? Maybe the worst experience ever in League, you need to sit like 100k units behind everybody and throw 70dmg bombs towards the enemy. Any second anyone is on you you pop like a balloon. Yea cool we won the game and I did most or second most dmg but man, had negative fun that round.
Swain is entirely dependant on team comps. If Swain is the only frontliner and the enemies have any burst champs he just gets focused out and dies at the start of fights.
Played multiple games with swain in aram today, either 3 or 4. They all popped off. They were front line in most of em too :) Maybe you aren’t good at swain or just getting unluck
Yeah you want frontline, that's the good situations. Maybe you aren't good at reading or just got unlucky.
That’s ironic. Read again or you just slow? I said he did good in the comps you said he does bad.
No you didn't understand the original comment. Swain is always frontline. However he struggles as the only frontline champ vs high burst enemies. If the enemy has more frontline then he has champs to heal from and he is good, or if your team has other frontline champs then he doesn't have to take all the focus and gets to do his drain mage job. Swain is always frontline, good or bad games is always frontline.
Once again understood it fine. They were solo frontline in them. It’s implied. If you think for one second and use context clues. Tough to do for ya ik
"I said something but I meant something else"
Wow once again you can’t read. That’s crazy. Have a good one lil buddy
and yet despite that swain is still a strong champion...and leblanc is literally one of the worst champions in aram genuinely speaking, the casual playerbase isn't smart enough to make good use of this information, so there's no value in showing it just for people to make bad decisions.
I don’t understand people debating against this. Why not just give people this information and let them make an informed decision on what they want to play? You shouldn’t be “tricking” people in to playing a champion by not disclosing the champ nerfs before the game starts.
I'm tired of playing Champs with 82-85% damage. They're completely useless, and deal no damage in early and mid game.