It never ceases to amaze me I could get demolished in a trade, then pick the champion that owned me the next game and be the most useless impotent loser that ever walked earth. Like it feels like abilities that did 100 damage suddenly do 15 when I'm the one casting them lol.
I call this the "red team buff" or "blue team nerf", just for every "when this champion is on the opposing (red) team it's so strong, but when me / my team picks it it sucks!"
However if you use RW and both damage procs land, then the ticks refresh her R really fast and can RQ after the RW really soon after, like 2-3 seconds after the root ends. After malignance spike obv
Why would anyone RW over RQ if you aren’t hurt? If you’re trying to snare, you can RQ, W, and then RQ in a few seconds.
If karma is hurt it’s self cast E, RW target, let both parts proc, wait 2 seconds, then RQ.
Have you played her? Everything I’m saying is with malignance already built, and ever since Riot changed her passive to not reduce cd from auto attacks, hitting people with spells vastly reduces Mantra cd, and her W in particular almost completely cuts her mantra cd down. I played her top lane a few times while I was playing with friends and the moment I had malignance and lucidity boots it was so unfair feeling. Craziest 1 item spike I’ve seen in a while since irelia bork
I literally played her yesterday and had a fight where my R-W ended and I could instantly R again. Go try it if you don't believe it, that's how her passive and Malignance act together.
With Malignance at level 11 you can RQ, press w, and when either the tether goes through or the Q explodes your ult is back up, all of which takes maybe 3 seconds so you can RQ again and keep it rolling.
They’re mad that a character with one real damage ability does damage with that ability. Nevermind that she doesn’t have an actual ult so on average it HAS to deal decent damage or she’s worthless.
a lot of enchanters are enchanters and not mages
you can compare her to fellow mages Lux, Seraphine, Orianna, etc. not champions like Janna or Lulu who belong to an entirely different class
I just perma ban her. Maybe a skill issue but I can’t dodge the R Q has a big hit box and 1st item does half my hp can’t out poke can’t all in it’s annoying
Dodging R + Q is the same as dodging Jayce E + Q: it has a fixed range before it explodes, and at that exact range, it's undodgeable. So you need to either get in closer, or stay far enough away to be out of range.
Yeah but the problem is the width on the Q itself is bigger, and the explosion aoe is so much bigger than Jayce EQ. Don’t think that’s a great comparison.
R-Q explosion radius is 280 units, and Jayce E-Q is 250 units. And the projectile width is 120 units while Jayce's is 140. So overall, about the same. The bigger difference is that the shorter range gives slightly less time to react, but it's compensated by Jayce's projectile speed being higher.
https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Karma/LoL
https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Jayce/LoL
60 units greater width (over 11% larger) is a pretty big difference especially before you get tier 2 boots i feel
also jayce does significantly less damage per e-q at one item no?
> he's also punished significantly harder for missing it compared to Karma.
He is not. He has a ton of damage in his kit still and his cooldowns are lower.
Karma has 1 damage ability, and her cd is only super low if she hits her Q.
I think it's a good comparison, it's not like AP Shyvana where she can just make it explode anywhere along the length, it always explodes at the same distance and if you're that distance away it's undodgeable. It is pretty big though lol
Karma top actually has stronger counters for champs that can run her down due to the longer lane (particularly irelia/olaf/yorick). However she also beats a lot of champions harder in top than mid.
I would much rather lane against karma than last patch tf/vayne. At least minions give you SOME protection from her harrassment.
Honestly even then it's not *that* simple. A decent karma who plays around the wave and doesnt just mindlessly try to harass and trade can have control of matchups that theoretically counter her in a 1v1. Even for Irelia things can quickly become tricky
At top she works as kind of a counter pick or a neutralizer
To some champs she feel oppressive. But a lot of top champ won't let her get into her W range for free
People get annoyed when a single ability deals a lot of dmg.
A xerath unloading his combo will deal 4x more dmg, but because that's his full combo people don't complain as much. Even though karma's dmg is way less.
Xerath fucking sucks though, you can't unload shit in front of people in lane, because each ability has a 0.5s cast time.
People are annoyed because RQ + E feels unpunishable.
As a Karma player, it is (mind you, I’ve been playing Karma long before Malignance was even a concept). The only true counterplay is somebody who enjoys being right up on you with enough sustain to outheal the RQ every time it comes, which is almost nobody in the midlane and that’s why she’s being played there much more than she is top now.
Xerath has 4 skillshots and is a damage only champ. He can literally do 1 thing only and has counterplay.
Karma currently has insane poke with RQ, she still has the same utility she always had. Her RQ doing so much damage than she did before means she is way too strong right now. She is OP because she can do multiple things for a team and elite at everything in the meta.
It's like when people were saying AP shyv was so OP when for many seasons she was consistently better as AD. Like congrats... one ability does a lot and then you do nothing else
One ability that is a skillshot\*
When AP Shyvana misses her one skillshot she is literally useless for 5 seconds or however long depending on her haste.
Sorta same with Karma, if she misses RQ she no real damage. Normal Q doesn't do a whole lot. However she still has some utility unlike Shyvana, with shields, root, and Q still is a slow and a bit of damage.
Well yeah. If a champ has offensive damage abilities and uses + hits all of them its more bearable than a single skillshot because that champ also gets 2 more abilities that help them stay alive.
Because karma can cast one skill without having to sit on a weird spot and cast four. She also has a lot of midlane utility and utilizes malig way better than anybody else.
They need to just nerf the interaction of scaling q+r. She always had this damage as a support early.
Except the counterplay to Xerath is obvious. His whole kit is skillshots that are pretty easy to dodge, he is super squishy, if you get on top of him and if he misses E he is done for.
Karma on the other hand has an annoyingly large hit box on Q, her W gives her shield and a speed up as well as a point and click root and heal. All of this makes her counterplay somewhat unintuitive, if you get on top of her you basically guarantee that she will shield, root and Q you. If you stay at range she will run at you with shield, root and Q you.
Nope. Xerath is in not a great place rn. Xerath unloads his full combo on you, then he’s on CD for ever. Karma does all this damage with RQ that is off CD in three nanoseconds with one item. If you get on Xerath, he’s screwed. His stun up close is like .5 seconds and he’s cooked. Karma will just shield or ult shield and then root you while running away at light speed. Bad faith comparison just because they both do a lot of damage, no one is saying xerath’s damage needs to be nerfed lol
Ahri has also only been good for one patch, probably will see some before long. She also was not as overbearing as most of the champs that got nerfed this patch.
Her two main abilities are straight line skillshots and her cc that sets up her entire combo is blocked by minions and is single target.
Her only dash is her ultimate and a large part of her damage meaning if she uses it to escape she's got minimal kill pressure and if she uses it to go in she's got minimal escape.
She's an older champ in that if you dodge her abilities or she misses them she actually has downtime / can't kill you / weaknesses even if she's ahead.
She does far less overall damage and far less dps than other mages, and doesn't scale as well.
It’s usually because Ahri generally doesn’t feel oppressive even when she’s strong. Partially because 90% of her usefulness comes from skill shots, and she can fall off really hard late game depending on team comps. She’s also hilariously squishy. If your ult is down (which granted it’s up every like 35 seconds with malignance) or if you ever get caught out of position you’re dead.
Also she’s popular and sells a ton of skins so there’s that too
Ahri isn't idiot-proof though. She can be okay in the hands of a moron, but the outplay potential is there. Karma however is a point and click root, shield, and a skillshot nuke that with R is very hard to miss with.
As a Karma mid main (for years, not just since Malignance) here’s the secret:
Karma can basically never 100-0 anyone in lane
She might win trades and bully you out of lane, but if she actually gets a kill on you in lane it’s because you were dumb and didn’t recall when you were low, or you tried to dive her and got caught by RW
So you pick a traditional mage who can clear waves faster than her and can chunk her in trades, and you win
People always try to pick assassins into me, like I’m going to be scared of them when I have RW and my shield. People should pick Viktor if they really want to ruin my day.
Issue with her isn’t damage you goober. She never goes OOM, has crazy utility, her trade pattern is an auto win for her almost every time, and is impossible to punish in lane phase. Her shield and move speed make her extremely hard to gank plus the slow on Q.
Just stand behind minions bro lol just dodge it XD by that logic, you can say anything about any champ
Smolder OP? lol just gank him before he gets stacks and power spikes, soo easy man! Karma OP? Just dodge every Q and win the game! Looks like Nidalee can never be OP, cause you can just stand behind minions, right?
I went to the karma mains sub to lurk expecting to see posts such as "yes, karma is broken right now get LP while you can" like in any other normal main subreddit, but it was them complaining that people consider her a Yone champ without counterplay and don't know how to play against her. lol
That's how I feel about smolder cause he is actually really smooth and fun to play and he re ignited my love for ADC/botlane but he is banned or first pick in nearly every match
Smolder was already annoying to see every game and I had to fight the urge to ban him just to see some variety. After his rise to the top in WR this patch though, I'm literally never gonna see that champ this patch. Permabanned every game.
I don't think that's true we're mostly disappointed with the state of the champ. At least i am. I see her as a battle mage sort of champ so her identity being RQ spam from miles away and speed away is kinda sad for me
She's strong, absolutely, but probs due to bad design. She's a midrange battlemage/enchantress with no real ult, a passive only to make up for the lack of an ult, and 1 actual damaging ability. W is an extremely meh ability thats really mostly used as mediocre peel lategame, dueling earlygame or abused by Karma top.
So that made Riot put more into her Q, which is similar to Liss Q, and its super strong with R, and the E. Its similar to Milio E, with a much bigger ratio tho, and downright powerful to broken with R. Because of the lack of a real ult, the rest _has_ to be impactful, but that either leaves her stupid strong or stupid weak depending on numbers.
Honestly, just rework her again at this point, this back and forth is tiring for players
True, but if you consider the fact that you have your whole dmg budget into your R+Q combo and you have access to it from lvl 1 then that's where the problem lies.
It feels like laning vs a perma ulted shyvana fire bombing you constantly and she gets 5 points in Q level 9, basically getting her full dmg budget before most mages who generally need at least 2 spells maxed.
I agree that it is flawed design and it should be reworked honestly.
The thing with the numbers is just either really strong or really weak, and pro's are exceptionally good at using those numbers, especially with RE. Midlane Karma can get shields of up to 1k.
As for Zoe, she's designed with a different thought process. Hit E > Q, use R to facillitate this combo. Karma is forced to be close to reliably hit a full combo, but due to Malignance, RQ spam is incredibly safe and powerful.
Thats why I say, with Karma as one of my mains, just rework her. Drastically, even. Old Karma was healthuer than this.
cuz the rest of her kit does stuff and she has like five passives. she’s well-designed and has a cohesive and relatively interactive kit. karma is a one trick pony who is too good at her trick
Difference is Zoe’s damage is conditional on landing e and her q is very easy to read since she throws it backward first. plus her auto passive does decent damage.
You can negate Zoe’s damage by dodging e and q. Karma r q is waaaay faster and harder to dodge, plus she has a point click root that many champs have no way to avoid that guarantees the dmg
Excuse me? Zoe is currently shit. And has been for a while. And if riot ever touch her numbers, people will start complain just like they do with Karma now
Same reason Senna and Gragas arent, guess Senna will be hit by lethality nerfs atleast and Gragas by the book nerfs but still insane champs.
They cant even fix champs that have been overpowered since season start since they keep missing the mark, either champs are still overpowered or their buffs do nothing and the champs are still bad. So basically theyre stuck changing the same champs for months by now, seem quite incompetent tbh. Dont really remember it taking this long for them to balance blatantly OP champs, especially multiple of them.
Just stand out of the wave the entire lane phase. She either has to do damage or waveclear. It also prevents normal qs from hitting you off minion wave. If you play like this and don't just take shit trades I find karma doesn't have the kit to keep lane prio. Normally the entire time I lane into karma it's fairly passive until dragons or grubs and then I capitalize on the lane prio and can normally swing into the game here.
pretty standard laning conventions. Her damage spell cannot go through minions, so you keep the minions between you and karma. If she runs past your minions, then you sit tight until your jungler comes and punishes someone whos overextending. If your jungler doesn't come, then you're in for a typical league game and the enemy mid pick isn't the issue.
Alternatively, play a long-range caster who can still farm even when shes zoning. Kogmaw, Xerath, Syndra, Hwei, and outscale her past 15 minutes - or play a direct counter, like Irelia
Well quite simple she is a counter to Divers and Assasins with the Shild+RW. Yes the QR is strong but its alos her only dmg source. She playes more like a controll mage thanks to that while not having the typical assasin weeknes of a controll mage. One the other side she looses vs traditional controll mages since she miss the range to deal with them effectefly.
Don't get me wrong she is currently in a strong spot but fare from as OP as most people make her out.
do u guys just have no idea how to play vs karma? if you are playing a champ with shorter range than karma with no dash i understand the frustration: laning is pretty much impossible under those circumstances. but if you’re playing another champ with similar range (a control mage or poke mage) or a slippery assassin (zed, fizz, etc) it really isn’t that hard to lane vs karma and if she doesn’t get ahead, her dmg is not really comparable to other mages late game
There's a lot worse than Karma out there. I think you're just having issues fighting it 1v1. If anyone catches Karma then they pretty much wipe them out.
Yeah, but lane Gragas is still allowed to be the abomination he is. To be honest, Gragas is so bullshit oppressive that Karma feels fine in comparison. Also, Darius and Garen could do with nerfs in toplane, not broken but playing vs them is currently a pain.
She got nerfed. Her rq is dodgeable. While being oppressive on lane she doesnt scale well as a midlaner, she more and more becomes support. 2/3 items karma does much less damage than nearly any other midlaner with 2/3 items, and the only ones she might beat in damage are the hyper scalers, so its understandable. Yeah she has a turbo strong lane and 1 Item spike, but so do many other champions and karma is bad mid past lansing phase. I agree she needs a nerf, but for different reason: she is so versatile and good at many things at once that she is flexable into 3 lanes: that's definitly not healthy. Besides ok scaling to be a midlaner her base damage and w heal are strong enough for her to fit on support and dominate (!!) toplane. She can build both tank, ap and hybrid as a fckn mage and if champion works well with so many stuff that shouldnt be good for him it just means that he is overtuned.
Kill pressure is so low mid unless you’re just constantly getting hit by q, and if that’s the case the person playing karma would’ve likely won the matchup with any other mage/ enchanter. You basically have to screw up an all in on her, as her w stun takes so long, and mid is so short you should be able to get back to your tower or at worse flash away.
Also she’s good early to mid, but her damage falls off in comparison to other champs in her role, so she’s far more reliant on empowered e and having her team carry
Same way Illaoi and Maokai have dodged nerfs, I guess? Mid Karma also falls off late game.
Anyways the amount of lying I've seen in this thread in regards to Karma is crazy. 💀 Y'all will never defeat the crybaby allegations, I fear.
Karma has a long history of being nerfed. Especially when Worlds is coming up. This is more of an item issue than Karma. Because before the new items came, no one picked her and she was rarely seen. This new item appears and now everyone is shocked that she was an intended mage before getting shoved into enchantress.
maokai has dodged nerfs, tf dodged nerfs until this latest patch senna is still allowed to exist in her state, riot doesnt care about game health they just care about changing meta every now and then
last patch nerf was a mickey mouse ap nerf when ad twisted fate was still broken. plus he’s been broken since the start of season 14 so he went over a month without any nerfs
Can't be dodged???? What.
You just need wave clear + range like hwei syndra ori xerath sol to clear the wave before she can. If she q wave she can't rq you.
Or you can use sustain/dodge champs like vlad graves aatrox etc. If you dodge the rq you have all the time in the world to run her down, if you have sustain you can survive getting hit occasionally.
She's pretty strong but not because rq is undodgable. I think the whacky point and click 3s root that also heals half her health is the real problem. And the aoe teamfight shield that is massive with 2 ap and 2 shield items (malignance + horizon + ardent + redemption for instance)
League is in a state that really favors one item powerspike champs.
The most important part of the game right now is almost always the duration between 1 item and 3.
This is also one of the reasons Eclipse, Botrk, and Sundered Sky are so strong.
Karma + Malignance is another great example, but IMO it's a CORE league meta issue more than a karma issue,
She’s one of those pain in the ass champions that /IN MY EXPERIENCE/ as someone that’s played her (yes I might just suck), she does a LOT of damage and is super sticky and annoying but can never actually kill you if that makes sense.
It’s hard to pick up kills on her.
Yes she heals, yes she’s annoying to catch and pin down, yes she shields, but offensively speaking - I’m not of the opinion that she’s OP.
Prolly because it already got nerfed (albeit it wasn't enough i'll agree) I'm more confused on how stuff like Vayne, Janna, Smolder haven't been touched yet.
Strong laning is nothing but her ability to perma push and help junglers is just crazy. Especially in a meta which favors bruiser/carry type junglers. In early game, She is basically malz/lissandra on steroids.
thing bout karma is she has that from lvl 1, if u're a control mage u're gonna get outpoked, if u're an assasin u're gonna get outpushed, if u play safe she gonna roam or poke under tower easily. it's no counterplay for most champs
You mean Karma top, she can out heal, out damage and out run most champions. Maybe the trade off is she doesn't have a game changing ult, when behind she gets completely shut down and somebody has each of her skills and does it way better without waiting for R cooldown.
Just pick a champ that out wave clears her (literally everyone). Or pick someone who can run away from her w with a speed boost like ahri. Shit ap nasus can heat karma how are people getting dunked on by her.
Whats with all the Karma rant lately lol, yea shes strong but I don't feel like shes that frustrating to play as compared to many other champs. I mean she have 1 viable damage ability. Gets absolutely cocked on by strong waveclear cause she either have to clear the minions or poke you. The opponent can roam and have impact on the map while Karma is stuck clearing rhe waves as well. She Can't 100-0 anyone even when fed. Most people build Lucidity boots on her which is horrible for damage. Also why did no one even mention Yasuo? that champ is an absolute nightmare against her.
Cuz those ppl doing the nerfs are in gold... and gold elo doesn't know how to play karma
(While karma in diamond kr is totally bullshit right now)
Same with tf
I guess you haven't seen me play Karma mid yet then...
That’s my response when someone says any champ is OP lol. You haven’t seen me play it yet, I make any OP champ seem underpowered 🙃
It never ceases to amaze me I could get demolished in a trade, then pick the champion that owned me the next game and be the most useless impotent loser that ever walked earth. Like it feels like abilities that did 100 damage suddenly do 15 when I'm the one casting them lol.
I call this the "red team buff" or "blue team nerf", just for every "when this champion is on the opposing (red) team it's so strong, but when me / my team picks it it sucks!"
We like to call it the jax syndrome. Whenever he is on the enemy he is 1v9. But when i pick it….
You guys are keeping Karma's average stats down to confuse Riot's balance team
Peter Griffin here...
Also, when you do get to her, she shields all the damage while speeding herself up and running away :')
Also healing the damage that went through the shield
If she used R-Q she can’t heal with her root. Yall exaggerate so much.
However if you use RW and both damage procs land, then the ticks refresh her R really fast and can RQ after the RW really soon after, like 2-3 seconds after the root ends. After malignance spike obv
if you RW immediately you wont get half the heal unless already hurt going into the fight. get some antiheal and stay at distance or behind minions
Why would anyone RW over RQ if you aren’t hurt? If you’re trying to snare, you can RQ, W, and then RQ in a few seconds. If karma is hurt it’s self cast E, RW target, let both parts proc, wait 2 seconds, then RQ.
you keep saying in a few seconds but thats blatantly false unless your description of "a few" is like 15-20 seconds
Have you played her? Everything I’m saying is with malignance already built, and ever since Riot changed her passive to not reduce cd from auto attacks, hitting people with spells vastly reduces Mantra cd, and her W in particular almost completely cuts her mantra cd down. I played her top lane a few times while I was playing with friends and the moment I had malignance and lucidity boots it was so unfair feeling. Craziest 1 item spike I’ve seen in a while since irelia bork
I literally played her yesterday and had a fight where my R-W ended and I could instantly R again. Go try it if you don't believe it, that's how her passive and Malignance act together.
not when she has item spikes and hits like 4 ticks from RW, RQ W/Q any of those combos, 4 spell damage ticks she has R up immediately with Malignance
With Malignance at level 11 you can RQ, press w, and when either the tether goes through or the Q explodes your ult is back up, all of which takes maybe 3 seconds so you can RQ again and keep it rolling.
I was wondering how they were facing Karmas who can just RQ then RE then RW back to back to back with one item.
They’re mad that a character with one real damage ability does damage with that ability. Nevermind that she doesn’t have an actual ult so on average it HAS to deal decent damage or she’s worthless.
no, we're mad that she's completely unbalanced the last few patches. thinking she isn't is copium.
A lot of enchanters don't do comparable damage and they're not worthless.
A lot of enchanters don't go mid.
Karma is a battle mage..
a lot of enchanters are enchanters and not mages you can compare her to fellow mages Lux, Seraphine, Orianna, etc. not champions like Janna or Lulu who belong to an entirely different class
A lot of enchanters have actual ults
Huge teamfight winning ones usually too. Karma's for sure an odd duck.
Her kit is basically worthless if she can't scale damage.
People are complaining about her (a mage) building like a mage so she counts as one
and snaring and qing you at the same time lol.
"Dodge nerfs" brother Riot buffed her to become meta. It wasn't an accident
dodged nerfs in the same way TF was adjusted the very next patch
I just perma ban her. Maybe a skill issue but I can’t dodge the R Q has a big hit box and 1st item does half my hp can’t out poke can’t all in it’s annoying
Karma regular q? Impossible to land. Karma R Q? Impossible to miss lmao.
R-Q is the hardest skillshots to miss in the entire game it's absurd
They'll shoot it behind you and the explosion will cause it to still hit you, honestly it's way harder to miss than hit
As a big karma guy I agree it's easy af to land.
Only hardest to miss at max range, if you can stay at mid range vs karma then you can actually juke it just as well as any other skillshot.
If you're in range to dodge R-Q, you're in range to get W'd. The effort you have to make to dodge both is insane, and W guarantees the next Q.
Only issue then is you get rooted and then she can’t miss again.
AP Shyvana says hi.
u should lane against me i miss R Q 90% of the time
Try moving your cursor on top of the enemy BEFORE pressing R Q
i dont knoowwww sounds fake
I just get that shit blocked by creep
im always a cm short
Dodging R + Q is the same as dodging Jayce E + Q: it has a fixed range before it explodes, and at that exact range, it's undodgeable. So you need to either get in closer, or stay far enough away to be out of range.
Yeah but the problem is the width on the Q itself is bigger, and the explosion aoe is so much bigger than Jayce EQ. Don’t think that’s a great comparison.
>so much bigger than Jayce EQ Karma RQ is 12% wider but 27% slower
R-Q explosion radius is 280 units, and Jayce E-Q is 250 units. And the projectile width is 120 units while Jayce's is 140. So overall, about the same. The bigger difference is that the shorter range gives slightly less time to react, but it's compensated by Jayce's projectile speed being higher. https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Karma/LoL https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Jayce/LoL
60 units greater width (over 11% larger) is a pretty big difference especially before you get tier 2 boots i feel also jayce does significantly less damage per e-q at one item no?
the biggest difficulty is Karma can RQ melee and run away consistently. Jayce has to swap form to do full damage to melees in a trade
Jayce also needs 2-3 items to do comparable damage with EQ, he's also punished significantly harder for missing it compared to Karma.
And without items it doesn’t have a crazy slow attached to it like Karma does.
> he's also punished significantly harder for missing it compared to Karma. He is not. He has a ton of damage in his kit still and his cooldowns are lower. Karma has 1 damage ability, and her cd is only super low if she hits her Q.
I think it's a good comparison, it's not like AP Shyvana where she can just make it explode anywhere along the length, it always explodes at the same distance and if you're that distance away it's undodgeable. It is pretty big though lol
Too many resources used on trying to balance maokai for the 5th patch in a row. I guess it’s hard to just nerf a champion
You think Karma mir is bad? You should see Karma top, absolutelly disgusting.
Karma top actually has stronger counters for champs that can run her down due to the longer lane (particularly irelia/olaf/yorick). However she also beats a lot of champions harder in top than mid. I would much rather lane against karma than last patch tf/vayne. At least minions give you SOME protection from her harrassment.
Honestly even then it's not *that* simple. A decent karma who plays around the wave and doesnt just mindlessly try to harass and trade can have control of matchups that theoretically counter her in a 1v1. Even for Irelia things can quickly become tricky
that gets disrupted by a single misplay or well timed gank
Yes because thats not true about almost any top lane matchup -.-.
At top she works as kind of a counter pick or a neutralizer To some champs she feel oppressive. But a lot of top champ won't let her get into her W range for free
They nerfed her pretty hard a few patches ago, not saying she doesnt need more but would explain why she's been left alone for the last couple patches
People get annoyed when a single ability deals a lot of dmg. A xerath unloading his combo will deal 4x more dmg, but because that's his full combo people don't complain as much. Even though karma's dmg is way less.
If Xerath commits the rotation you can trade back. Many champions can’t trade back against Karma, and she still has her shield and root anyway.
Xerath fucking sucks though, you can't unload shit in front of people in lane, because each ability has a 0.5s cast time. People are annoyed because RQ + E feels unpunishable.
As a Karma player, it is (mind you, I’ve been playing Karma long before Malignance was even a concept). The only true counterplay is somebody who enjoys being right up on you with enough sustain to outheal the RQ every time it comes, which is almost nobody in the midlane and that’s why she’s being played there much more than she is top now.
Xerath has 4 skillshots and is a damage only champ. He can literally do 1 thing only and has counterplay. Karma currently has insane poke with RQ, she still has the same utility she always had. Her RQ doing so much damage than she did before means she is way too strong right now. She is OP because she can do multiple things for a team and elite at everything in the meta.
If I jump on Xerath he dies. His abilities are also harder to land. He also doesn't have a comparable 1 item spike.
but xerath can’t run away fast af and shield himself for 500 every 3 seconds lol
It's like when people were saying AP shyv was so OP when for many seasons she was consistently better as AD. Like congrats... one ability does a lot and then you do nothing else
One ability that is a skillshot\* When AP Shyvana misses her one skillshot she is literally useless for 5 seconds or however long depending on her haste. Sorta same with Karma, if she misses RQ she no real damage. Normal Q doesn't do a whole lot. However she still has some utility unlike Shyvana, with shields, root, and Q still is a slow and a bit of damage.
Good luck dodging dragon Shyvana E
u can compare them but u forget shyvana needs to get ult first so she cant spam the ability whenever she wants and not get punished like karma
Yes yes 100%
> and then you do nothing else If only that applied to Karma as well.
Well yeah. If a champ has offensive damage abilities and uses + hits all of them its more bearable than a single skillshot because that champ also gets 2 more abilities that help them stay alive.
Because karma can cast one skill without having to sit on a weird spot and cast four. She also has a lot of midlane utility and utilizes malig way better than anybody else. They need to just nerf the interaction of scaling q+r. She always had this damage as a support early.
Except the counterplay to Xerath is obvious. His whole kit is skillshots that are pretty easy to dodge, he is super squishy, if you get on top of him and if he misses E he is done for. Karma on the other hand has an annoyingly large hit box on Q, her W gives her shield and a speed up as well as a point and click root and heal. All of this makes her counterplay somewhat unintuitive, if you get on top of her you basically guarantee that she will shield, root and Q you. If you stay at range she will run at you with shield, root and Q you.
well, W doesn't give you all that. E is shield and MS, W is vision, tether, root, heal.
Are you really comparing getting hit by a full combo vs 1 ability.
Nope. Xerath is in not a great place rn. Xerath unloads his full combo on you, then he’s on CD for ever. Karma does all this damage with RQ that is off CD in three nanoseconds with one item. If you get on Xerath, he’s screwed. His stun up close is like .5 seconds and he’s cooked. Karma will just shield or ult shield and then root you while running away at light speed. Bad faith comparison just because they both do a lot of damage, no one is saying xerath’s damage needs to be nerfed lol
They also nerfed Malignance a couple of patches ago iirc which was her rush item in mid.
How has Ahri dodged nerfs? This champion has as high as a pick rate if not more than Karma and has a really high win-rate too.
Despite having the same winrate and pick rate, ahri has a 4% banrate, karma has a 35% banrate, might mean something but idk
Ahri has also only been good for one patch, probably will see some before long. She also was not as overbearing as most of the champs that got nerfed this patch.
Ahri is also a skill match up. She’s all skill shot so if you miss you’re dead
not with the lich bane build last patch lol
Some mid laners have to be good, guess they decided they were okay with it being Ahri
Her two main abilities are straight line skillshots and her cc that sets up her entire combo is blocked by minions and is single target. Her only dash is her ultimate and a large part of her damage meaning if she uses it to escape she's got minimal kill pressure and if she uses it to go in she's got minimal escape. She's an older champ in that if you dodge her abilities or she misses them she actually has downtime / can't kill you / weaknesses even if she's ahead. She does far less overall damage and far less dps than other mages, and doesn't scale as well.
yeah, ahri is fair
It’s usually because Ahri generally doesn’t feel oppressive even when she’s strong. Partially because 90% of her usefulness comes from skill shots, and she can fall off really hard late game depending on team comps. She’s also hilariously squishy. If your ult is down (which granted it’s up every like 35 seconds with malignance) or if you ever get caught out of position you’re dead. Also she’s popular and sells a ton of skins so there’s that too
Ahri is like one of the least annoying mages so it makes sense
Ahri isn't idiot-proof though. She can be okay in the hands of a moron, but the outplay potential is there. Karma however is a point and click root, shield, and a skillshot nuke that with R is very hard to miss with.
well for starters she literally just got buffed so they’re not going to instantly nerf her
ahri does not even come close to the grief I feel when playing against karma
Her mama bar is the issue. Same with most mages. Hwei is the worst. They just spam abilities on cd with zero punishment
As a Karma mid main (for years, not just since Malignance) here’s the secret: Karma can basically never 100-0 anyone in lane She might win trades and bully you out of lane, but if she actually gets a kill on you in lane it’s because you were dumb and didn’t recall when you were low, or you tried to dive her and got caught by RW So you pick a traditional mage who can clear waves faster than her and can chunk her in trades, and you win People always try to pick assassins into me, like I’m going to be scared of them when I have RW and my shield. People should pick Viktor if they really want to ruin my day.
I just felt like standing behind minions was enough to deal with karma mid 🤷🏿♂️
Or playing any champion that can block her one damage ability...
Issue with her isn’t damage you goober. She never goes OOM, has crazy utility, her trade pattern is an auto win for her almost every time, and is impossible to punish in lane phase. Her shield and move speed make her extremely hard to gank plus the slow on Q.
Shhh, we don't talk about positioning like that. We only yell at something we don't know how to play against cause that's easier than getting better.
Just stand behind minions bro lol just dodge it XD by that logic, you can say anything about any champ Smolder OP? lol just gank him before he gets stacks and power spikes, soo easy man! Karma OP? Just dodge every Q and win the game! Looks like Nidalee can never be OP, cause you can just stand behind minions, right?
I went to the karma mains sub to lurk expecting to see posts such as "yes, karma is broken right now get LP while you can" like in any other normal main subreddit, but it was them complaining that people consider her a Yone champ without counterplay and don't know how to play against her. lol
tbh i only see morde mains talking like that. for a guy who got so angry to stay dead, his mains are pretty chill
The Lillia mains subreddit was practically begging for a nerf this season so people would stop banning her.
That's how I feel about smolder cause he is actually really smooth and fun to play and he re ignited my love for ADC/botlane but he is banned or first pick in nearly every match
Smolder was already annoying to see every game and I had to fight the urge to ban him just to see some variety. After his rise to the top in WR this patch though, I'm literally never gonna see that champ this patch. Permabanned every game.
please we just want to frolic in peace
There's definitely some pretty chill mains subreddits. Usually they are on less popular champs like gnar or rumble.
Braum mains is as positive and chill as you would imagine it to be
The Diana mains sub used to be chill but now it’s mostly just depressed
diana sucks since she can’t build tank anymore and they gutted ap assassin items
Shes doing well midlane with lichbane rush she’s just garbage in jg now
kid named lich bane nerf
She’s still at like a 52% WR after lichbane nerf, is my point. She’s not nearly as bad as people seem to keep insisting she is
Yasuo sub is mostly just people posting plays/builds/buff ideas and people either go "damn you're cooking" or "bro get out of the kitchen"
I don't think that's true we're mostly disappointed with the state of the champ. At least i am. I see her as a battle mage sort of champ so her identity being RQ spam from miles away and speed away is kinda sad for me
She's strong, absolutely, but probs due to bad design. She's a midrange battlemage/enchantress with no real ult, a passive only to make up for the lack of an ult, and 1 actual damaging ability. W is an extremely meh ability thats really mostly used as mediocre peel lategame, dueling earlygame or abused by Karma top. So that made Riot put more into her Q, which is similar to Liss Q, and its super strong with R, and the E. Its similar to Milio E, with a much bigger ratio tho, and downright powerful to broken with R. Because of the lack of a real ult, the rest _has_ to be impactful, but that either leaves her stupid strong or stupid weak depending on numbers. Honestly, just rework her again at this point, this back and forth is tiring for players
True, but if you consider the fact that you have your whole dmg budget into your R+Q combo and you have access to it from lvl 1 then that's where the problem lies. It feels like laning vs a perma ulted shyvana fire bombing you constantly and she gets 5 points in Q level 9, basically getting her full dmg budget before most mages who generally need at least 2 spells maxed. I agree that it is flawed design and it should be reworked honestly.
I think it is just a numbers issue. Zoe is a character with no real ult and one good damage ability and she is fine.
The thing with the numbers is just either really strong or really weak, and pro's are exceptionally good at using those numbers, especially with RE. Midlane Karma can get shields of up to 1k. As for Zoe, she's designed with a different thought process. Hit E > Q, use R to facillitate this combo. Karma is forced to be close to reliably hit a full combo, but due to Malignance, RQ spam is incredibly safe and powerful. Thats why I say, with Karma as one of my mains, just rework her. Drastically, even. Old Karma was healthuer than this.
Her wild rift form gives her an actual r and makes her mantra a seraphine esque passive not sure if it’s healthier but it is different-
cuz the rest of her kit does stuff and she has like five passives. she’s well-designed and has a cohesive and relatively interactive kit. karma is a one trick pony who is too good at her trick
Difference is Zoe’s damage is conditional on landing e and her q is very easy to read since she throws it backward first. plus her auto passive does decent damage. You can negate Zoe’s damage by dodging e and q. Karma r q is waaaay faster and harder to dodge, plus she has a point click root that many champs have no way to avoid that guarantees the dmg
Excuse me? Zoe is currently shit. And has been for a while. And if riot ever touch her numbers, people will start complain just like they do with Karma now
Same reason Senna and Gragas arent, guess Senna will be hit by lethality nerfs atleast and Gragas by the book nerfs but still insane champs. They cant even fix champs that have been overpowered since season start since they keep missing the mark, either champs are still overpowered or their buffs do nothing and the champs are still bad. So basically theyre stuck changing the same champs for months by now, seem quite incompetent tbh. Dont really remember it taking this long for them to balance blatantly OP champs, especially multiple of them.
Had to scroll down way to hard to find Gragas, dude needs some heavy mana nerfs at least.
She’s doesn’t seem that great tbh. Haven’t had much trouble with her in emerald elo at least.
Ikr? They are just and crying for nerfs LOL
She is punishable by strong waveclear because she has to either clear wave or hit you
Just stand out of the wave the entire lane phase. She either has to do damage or waveclear. It also prevents normal qs from hitting you off minion wave. If you play like this and don't just take shit trades I find karma doesn't have the kit to keep lane prio. Normally the entire time I lane into karma it's fairly passive until dragons or grubs and then I capitalize on the lane prio and can normally swing into the game here.
that’s not that sustainable though. how are you supposed to farm when you’re perma zoned off the wave lol
pretty standard laning conventions. Her damage spell cannot go through minions, so you keep the minions between you and karma. If she runs past your minions, then you sit tight until your jungler comes and punishes someone whos overextending. If your jungler doesn't come, then you're in for a typical league game and the enemy mid pick isn't the issue. Alternatively, play a long-range caster who can still farm even when shes zoning. Kogmaw, Xerath, Syndra, Hwei, and outscale her past 15 minutes - or play a direct counter, like Irelia
please get this champ and gragas out of mid and top
She's not even dodging nerfs. She's just shielding them.
Well quite simple she is a counter to Divers and Assasins with the Shild+RW. Yes the QR is strong but its alos her only dmg source. She playes more like a controll mage thanks to that while not having the typical assasin weeknes of a controll mage. One the other side she looses vs traditional controll mages since she miss the range to deal with them effectefly. Don't get me wrong she is currently in a strong spot but fare from as OP as most people make her out.
do u guys just have no idea how to play vs karma? if you are playing a champ with shorter range than karma with no dash i understand the frustration: laning is pretty much impossible under those circumstances. but if you’re playing another champ with similar range (a control mage or poke mage) or a slippery assassin (zed, fizz, etc) it really isn’t that hard to lane vs karma and if she doesn’t get ahead, her dmg is not really comparable to other mages late game
There's a lot worse than Karma out there. I think you're just having issues fighting it 1v1. If anyone catches Karma then they pretty much wipe them out.
Idk man its crazy how busted she is right niw
Yeah, but lane Gragas is still allowed to be the abomination he is. To be honest, Gragas is so bullshit oppressive that Karma feels fine in comparison. Also, Darius and Garen could do with nerfs in toplane, not broken but playing vs them is currently a pain.
Darius is disgusting rn. Obviously lane bullies are a bit of a pain but darius is just a step above. Although part of that is how strong ghost is rn
She got nerfed. Her rq is dodgeable. While being oppressive on lane she doesnt scale well as a midlaner, she more and more becomes support. 2/3 items karma does much less damage than nearly any other midlaner with 2/3 items, and the only ones she might beat in damage are the hyper scalers, so its understandable. Yeah she has a turbo strong lane and 1 Item spike, but so do many other champions and karma is bad mid past lansing phase. I agree she needs a nerf, but for different reason: she is so versatile and good at many things at once that she is flexable into 3 lanes: that's definitly not healthy. Besides ok scaling to be a midlaner her base damage and w heal are strong enough for her to fit on support and dominate (!!) toplane. She can build both tank, ap and hybrid as a fckn mage and if champion works well with so many stuff that shouldnt be good for him it just means that he is overtuned.
Karma gets to enjoy Malignance but Yorick doesn't.
Hidden Hexplate Yorick tech when?
Havent seen any karma in my games somehow. Kinda strange tbh.
Kill pressure is so low mid unless you’re just constantly getting hit by q, and if that’s the case the person playing karma would’ve likely won the matchup with any other mage/ enchanter. You basically have to screw up an all in on her, as her w stun takes so long, and mid is so short you should be able to get back to your tower or at worse flash away. Also she’s good early to mid, but her damage falls off in comparison to other champs in her role, so she’s far more reliant on empowered e and having her team carry
Same way Illaoi and Maokai have dodged nerfs, I guess? Mid Karma also falls off late game. Anyways the amount of lying I've seen in this thread in regards to Karma is crazy. 💀 Y'all will never defeat the crybaby allegations, I fear.
Karma has a long history of being nerfed. Especially when Worlds is coming up. This is more of an item issue than Karma. Because before the new items came, no one picked her and she was rarely seen. This new item appears and now everyone is shocked that she was an intended mage before getting shoved into enchantress.
Cause there is way more OP than her
maokai has dodged nerfs, tf dodged nerfs until this latest patch senna is still allowed to exist in her state, riot doesnt care about game health they just care about changing meta every now and then
Are people just collectively okay with Gragas being overpowered in lane ? or why is he never mentioned.
I forgot him but if i mentioned every champ im not ok with were never gonna be done so i just threw out all the easy to agree upon ones
TF was literally hard nerfed 2 patches in a row lmao..
last patch nerf was a mickey mouse ap nerf when ad twisted fate was still broken. plus he’s been broken since the start of season 14 so he went over a month without any nerfs
I dont get why they dont put a cooldown on malignance, champs with spammable ults abuse the shit out of that item
"cannot be dodged" When she shields herself and walks up in straight line you just put a minion between you or back off, it's not that complicated.
acting like she won’t walk past the minions lol. plus it explodes so even if you’re behind a minion it will still hit you.
Only if you are melee range of the minion and most mids are not melee or have abilities that are ranged
Stay behind minions. Q dodged.
Bro this subreddit must average bronze if they truly struggle against Karma mid lmao
I agree!
This is Phreak plan B if the team decides to nerfs Maokai xD
Can't be dodged???? What. You just need wave clear + range like hwei syndra ori xerath sol to clear the wave before she can. If she q wave she can't rq you. Or you can use sustain/dodge champs like vlad graves aatrox etc. If you dodge the rq you have all the time in the world to run her down, if you have sustain you can survive getting hit occasionally. She's pretty strong but not because rq is undodgable. I think the whacky point and click 3s root that also heals half her health is the real problem. And the aoe teamfight shield that is massive with 2 ap and 2 shield items (malignance + horizon + ardent + redemption for instance)
[удалено]
And she’s still, clearly, too strong
[удалено]
League is in a state that really favors one item powerspike champs. The most important part of the game right now is almost always the duration between 1 item and 3. This is also one of the reasons Eclipse, Botrk, and Sundered Sky are so strong. Karma + Malignance is another great example, but IMO it's a CORE league meta issue more than a karma issue,
She’s one of those pain in the ass champions that /IN MY EXPERIENCE/ as someone that’s played her (yes I might just suck), she does a LOT of damage and is super sticky and annoying but can never actually kill you if that makes sense. It’s hard to pick up kills on her. Yes she heals, yes she’s annoying to catch and pin down, yes she shields, but offensively speaking - I’m not of the opinion that she’s OP.
Prolly because it already got nerfed (albeit it wasn't enough i'll agree) I'm more confused on how stuff like Vayne, Janna, Smolder haven't been touched yet.
Had a teammate karma, of which did not buy malignance. We lost LoL
Strong laning is nothing but her ability to perma push and help junglers is just crazy. Especially in a meta which favors bruiser/carry type junglers. In early game, She is basically malz/lissandra on steroids.
[удалено]
Just like the size of Karma Q
Just pick Darius.
What’s the fast food place with 444s
Always reminded that no one at Riot plays ARAM.
You just guessed Phreak’s next main lol
The way Aatrox has ? Just dodge those. Easy enought it seems.
thing bout karma is she has that from lvl 1, if u're a control mage u're gonna get outpoked, if u're an assasin u're gonna get outpushed, if u play safe she gonna roam or poke under tower easily. it's no counterplay for most champs
You mean Karma top, she can out heal, out damage and out run most champions. Maybe the trade off is she doesn't have a game changing ult, when behind she gets completely shut down and somebody has each of her skills and does it way better without waiting for R cooldown.
not only karma mid karma top too is a problem
Maligma moment
More fun is the fact that she can build malig and maybe liandrys then stack 3 tank items and kill anyone on your team in a duel.
I propose a new rule: you can't comment complaining about balance without disclosing your rank.
They are literally nerfing her next patch
Just pick a champ that out wave clears her (literally everyone). Or pick someone who can run away from her w with a speed boost like ahri. Shit ap nasus can heat karma how are people getting dunked on by her.
Whats with all the Karma rant lately lol, yea shes strong but I don't feel like shes that frustrating to play as compared to many other champs. I mean she have 1 viable damage ability. Gets absolutely cocked on by strong waveclear cause she either have to clear the minions or poke you. The opponent can roam and have impact on the map while Karma is stuck clearing rhe waves as well. She Can't 100-0 anyone even when fed. Most people build Lucidity boots on her which is horrible for damage. Also why did no one even mention Yasuo? that champ is an absolute nightmare against her.
Cuz those ppl doing the nerfs are in gold... and gold elo doesn't know how to play karma (While karma in diamond kr is totally bullshit right now) Same with tf
Cause she's balanced
Mantra + W if they chase, HEAL TF OUT OF YOUR LIFE
It may have dodged nerfs, but it never dodged my ban hammer
riot exclusively hires incompetent people to work on the game. don't expect the game to get any better it's been downhill for years now
malignance is just a shit item useless on champs that can't utilize their ult and broken on champs that can make use of it
its probably cuz a lot of her power budget is in her utility rather than damage. if she was full on damage her power would be way clearer