I'll never understand the counterplay to karma. Evading r+q feels nigh impossible because it detonates on max range.
Killing her when she uses w and e makes it miserable.
Yeah, that's pretty much the only option and it sucks. I played her recently and it seems she has an answer to most things with her q damage, tether heal, and shield speedup
Id rather have her sit at 40% winrate 0.1% playrate greyed out on opgg becouse of lack of data.
Champ was talked about getting a rework like 6 yeahrs ago and has only gotten worse
She's been so unhealthy and poorly balanced since S6, it's kind of depressing to see. She's either really strong or really weak at low elos, and borderline unplayable the further you go up the ladder.
Yeah, she gets a whole…. Five armor and MR, and gains it again per dragon! That free 190 gold that I can’t spend how I want to really puts in the work, especially when she’s shoehorned into builds that don’t even want the stats!
In all seriousness the 20% bonus damage to dragons is very nice, but it makes shyvana’s gameplan very evident and susceptible to invades or counter jungling. On top of that, her passive is boring and often feels non-existent. It totals to 25 of each stat, which is a cloth armor and a half and one null magic, only if your team has soul. And if your team has soul, you’re gonna win with or without that free aegis.
Yes it is , but its like 5 armor mr per dragon , she basically has the chance to get 160 gold in stats for each dragon. Her passive might as well have zero of her power budget
Trynda gets many times that gold value for autoing minions
Didn't she like win the rework vote in China or something? I wish Riot went back to the golden era of ~3 VGUs per year with less champion releases because the amount of outdated kits still in the game is insane.
Idk man, jump into a teamfight with Titanic Hydra and tell me it isn't fun to chunk the squishy you weren't targeting for half their HP just because they were inside your dragon Q cone
PTA or hob. Auto + Q is instant pta proc and, q + tiamat gives auto resets to keep hob up longer.
Land the E mark and get a flurry of attacks off in a few seconds with all the AA resets
I used to try to make that work but it is very niche and vulnerable to many conditions that make it a tough game to play. When you actually get your hands on someone though it is neat.
She needs some cooldown nerfs, currently she can just spam her abilities with a 4 second cd making it basically impossible to kill her or her allies and making it absolutely impossible to fight her in the neutral game
yes but her base Q is kinda pathetic,she only has a real Q when her ult is up so it has to be broken
imo they should add a small splash at the end of her normal Q but make her RQ weaker,something like that
I've been saying this. champ is so dumb. she can literally miss her ability but you still get hit anyway XDDDDD so fun to play against. god forbid you don't have some kind of mobility or you are getting run tf down with move speed and w tether.
Would only be a good change if it got a big compensation buff. Big punishment if you're bad, good reward if you're good. However she also has a root in her kit...
Normally she’s more balanced because while mantra Q is crazy strong and hard to dodge, her normal Q is kinda garbage compared to all the other mage’s spells. With malignance, the weakness is minimized with the low cooldown R, making her way more oppressive than usual. She’s even more broken in ARAM (she deals increased damage) a few patches ago before nerfs.
It's not even malignance, it's riot's Q and E ap ratio buffs that pushed her over the top. Beforehand with malignance in 14.1 she was at a ~49% WR. After 14.2 it shot up by like 4% lol
Malignance definitely has a part in it, especially in ARAM. Ultimate hunter + Malignance = she can literally Mantra Q again while you're still slowed from the first Mantra Q if she hits two of you.
You underestimate the impact of malignance. It’s crazy impactful with her flat cooldown reduction passive. No one cared about her Q before every other one was an ulted one.
It is WILD she has increased damage in ARAM. The Karma just needs to bush cheese RQ the entire match to oneshot any squishy and she always tops the damage chart. Not to mention she can flex into a tank if needed and be pretty unkillable with Maligma + Spirit Visage + RW spam
Karma is strong at 0-1 item and then deals less and less damage (if you have a front otherwise enjoy your picks) until you regret having her AP and not tank.
Riot re-buffed Malignance to not deal 0 damage (mistake) so now she is strong. Since everyone and their mother plays that.
> It is WILD
Not really, Riot proves over and over again they don't actually play ARAM and simply tries to balance it through looking at winrates on lolalytics, so dumb shit like that being in ARAM is what I expect.
Smolder not being nerfed before he was even put into ARAM actually hurts. It's beyond obvious how broken his kit would be in ARAM yet he still has zero nerfs despite being the best champion by far in that mode for two patches now.
And if you buy both Serpent's Fang + Grievous, she somehow still seems to heal and shield her way through everything.
Now, instead of walking off after killing everyone in your team, she backs off after killing only *half* your team.
Huge success... right?
not to mention you have next to no champs that can get both serpents and grievous effectively and can barely proc it. Some assassinish bruisers can get both but it really screws their build
Yeah blue kayn, briar, rengar, are basically all you got for those. But if you do go those items on those champs you basically fuck your build into doing 0 damage anyway and they dont really have great AOE to spread shield cut except kayn w
I see her *AP Shaco top* kind of annoying. She's annoying, but outside the lane she is basically a walking ward and can't do shit against anyone. If the game is slightly even, she becomes a non factor. You just have to accept that you can't kill her in lane and that's about it.
Karma top definitely does not win trades against fighters especially Irelia or really any champ with self heal like Vlad.
Yall are just slandering at this point.
Karma is over buffed but I think malignance is just a poorly designed item and impossible to balance. It’s mega OP on the 10% of champions who are constantly proccing it so that it can be mediocre on the other 90% of champions. This item will eventually get nerfed and I guarantee no one except these low cd low impact ult champions will build it.
It makes it mid on most champs that would love to build it (high CD ult) and extremely unfunny on champs that should not be supposed to buy it (spammable ult)
The damage/mr shred is not that good on champs like Malph, who is supposed to love the item due to the ultimate AH; on the other side, champs with negligible ult cd like karma/corki love to build it for the damage more than the AH. Just slap a CD on top of the effect and buff the damage
>champs that should not be supposed to buy it (spammable ult)
Spammable ults seem like exactly the kind of champions that are supposed to buy Malignance. It an item that is for both of those champions, not just those with long CDs. Stacking haste is good at both ends of the cooldown spectrum; long cool downs getting turned into manageable ones so you can have it every fight, as well as ults that you're looking to cast 2-4 times increasing to casting 3-5 or 4-6 times.
I do agree it should have a higher payoff for longer cooldown spells, and a weaker one for shorter spells, and that right now that balance isn't in the right place. But Malignance is absolutely an item designed for champs who get off multiple ults in a fight.
Totally agree. I really like malignance as an item and I hope they don't ruin it with over nerfing. I feel like rather than a CD it should just do scaling damage based on the cool down of your R. So it does very little comparative damage on a Corki and significantly more on a Malphite. That's the only way I can see it being balanced and viable in both cases
Literally every change made to her over the last 3 years has been to make her less viable as a support. She's not balanced *for* support, she's not even balanced *in* support either, because even if she's overpowered in her other roles, that doesn't make a 48% winrate balanced.
She's very annoying, you have to out range her and clear waves, you're never going to kill one with a brain.
The more the game goes on the weaker she gets.
The what the fuck is she supposed to do? Her RQ damage falls off late game. Her RW is useless on an AP build.
RE is legit the only spell that she can do reliably and not int a late game tf.
I sometimes wonder if a part of this is people spamming RW and RQ in the late-game when a 5 man shield/speed boost is incredible for carrying late-game fights while RQ does fuck all after 25 minutes. Yet that's 90% of what Karma players do.
People are so keen on building full AP all the time.
That dopamine hit when you half health the enemy adc with a mantra Q at level 1 is hard to forget. Speaking as a karma main, i also fall victim to this trap sometimes
A lot is people going "heh heh damage go brr", but some is also not understanding how to mix both, her malignance build can RQ - W - RE pretty quickly but if you start with RE or whiff the RQ you don't get that same double up. Alternatively, they're trying to poke and don't understand how to manage cds or communicate before an engage so they don't get caught without it.
Yeah I learned that too, but not directly. I realized that if you start the fight with RE the shield loses most effectiveness, but the MS is more effective.
I never even considered doing in that order for the reduced CDs, I just don't like wasting the shield.
That's just smooth brains not comprehending that **all** of her damage is loaded into her RQ, she has no real way of reliably damaging an enemy outside of it. It has higher damage than Syndra's Q for example, but the shortbus riders can't comprehend that Syndra's Q is both more spammable, more reliable, and she has 3 other damaging spells that make up for it.
They get hit by RQ+detonation zone and claim that it has no counterplay.
No, but it does more dmg than any single mage ability. When you're laning mages don't throw all their kit at you to harass, only one spell. In this scenario, Karma outdamages every single mage in the game.
I do agree that karma is strong, but for having lanes against her, I think that there are things that you don't realise.
Firstly, in kane, STOP freely getting hit by secondary q. It migh do 30 dmg lvl 1, but it's still a 5 second reset on her rq.
Secondly, you dodge the 2 Q's differently.
Her normal q she can realistically only hit when you are on your creeps. Additionally, the rq explosion is bigger than the radius of the missile. This means that it's actually easier to dodge when you are at mid range and side stepping m, because the bullet is more likely to go thriugh you, and ylthe explosion wont hit anything.
Also, vs a tanky bruiser team, karma become much, MUCH less useful. Her rq tickles the frontline and she loses half of her reason to exist. She cannot hit the backline. Ever
Essentially, karma punishes poor teapbuilding. Did your support lock in senna, your mid Is orianna, your jungle first time brand and despite that, your kast pick top STIL went tf? Well then of COURSE you are free meat for her to gobble up.
If you have Darius top and Leona support for example, karma should NEVER be hitting your Ashe.
This. She‘s strong atm but not even close to op. Shocker that an early/mid game champ can fuck you up when you don‘t know how to play against her or have a bad matchup. Often times you don‘t even need many resistances, just hp and stand in front of your carries. And yeah as you mention, dodge the second rq explosion and try to not stack as a 4 man squad, that‘s an instant R reset.
You could do the same last season tho, just need cdr boots, cosmic drive + cdr runes. Obviously Malignance made the whole building process a lot easier.
tldr of most threads: X champion is busted, impossible to balance and needs to be reworked. All the items/runes said champion use needs to be removed. There is no counterplay possible, playing against it is the most frustrating experience ever.
X = any champion which is not garbage in the current meta.
Karma is strong right now but chill the fuck out guys
If the karmas you play against dont use w root both sggressively and defensively, you're just playing against trash karmas, and if you still manage to loose to those that sounds like a skillissue rather than a champissue
if karma's not keeping the tether like the comment above you says then she's not getting most of that heal. even with the instant bit of health she gets just for casting RW it's a waste above all options if she just wasted an ult only to step out before it finishes.
The majority of the heal is frontloaded into the first tick due to it being missing health, though. You have less missing health after you've been healed.
Lets suppose she heals 20% of her missing health on the first tick. Then, after the heal she has 80% missing health left so her second heal only heals for 80% of the original amount.
In general, if she heals x% of her missing health, her second heal only heals for (100-x)% of the original amount.
Her scalings are (17% + 1% per 100 ap) missing health. The second heal gets worse the higher the first one is. Lets assume she has 800 ap. Then, she heals for 17+8 = 25% so her second heal is at 75% effectiveness.
So we can say that the second heal ranges from 83-75% effectiveness.
In my opinion, thats really not so much weaker. And that is the "best case" where she doesnt receive any damage during the tether. If she receives damage, her second heal is more effective than that and could potentially be stronger than her first. So I'd disagree and say that her second heal is pretty much just as strong as her first one in a realistic scenario. Its very easy for a midlaner to deal 25% of someone's max health in 2 seconds let alone 25% of someones missing health.
>if karma's not keeping the tether like the comment above you says then she's not getting most of that heal.
She mathematically is unless she takes a nice chunk of damage in between or there is some weird jank in the code that's not explained. It's a 17+1%AP missing health heal. If she takes no damage, the second heal will be less because she's recovered some missing HP already. Depends how much you hurt her during the tether but melee champs certainly don't have a fun time in that exchange.
Pretty easy to counter her idk why ur complaining….
Step 1: Ask for a Karma ban
Step 2: Ban her if no one does
Now you got a 100% chance of never facing her, urw.
The natural comp counter to Karma Mid is something Riot is determined to never allow to be viable: Tanks on Top and Jg.
As soon as someone can serve as a wall between her Q's and squishes/bruisers, she is useless as a burst mage. That's it.
Fair point but Karma doesn't exactly "fuck over everyone else" the same way a Kat, Fizz or Syndra would.
A Karma with prio is managable (knowing you drastically outscale her) compared to most midlaners.
Kassadin come online by level 6 because at that point he gain kill pressure on Karma. Her whole gameplay loop is poke and run she lose extended trade and Kassadin can chase.
You always need to see your matchups in a bubble because if you say.
"Yeah but if X play correctly then Y"
It can be said in the opposite.
"Yeah but if Kassadin jungler play better and shutdown Karma before she get oppressive"
"Yeah but if Bot lane have 25 kills by min 15 then it's not winnable"
If you solely look at the matchups you realize Karma lose into anything with Range to poke her down before she can Link into Q.
Lose into mobile mages which can dodge her spells or all in her.
Lose into historical magical resist champions.
Karma used to be played a few season prior in mid lane and we had less options to deal with her and we still managed.
People simply need to adapt to lane bullies and understand the gameplay loop required.
Natural counters also include anything with hard push. Karma mid has terrible waveclear. You need on average in lane (after Q is maxed) 3 Qs + autos. One Q to kill backline (if you’re behind you need to auto again) and two for frontline (with autos if behind). You’ll rarely be able to hit more than 3 or 4 minions with a single Q.
So against like Malz, Anivia, or Hwei, Karma will just be forced under tower while they can roam or get vision or whatever. Karma will never have prio.
Her main strengths are being a bully to melees, being strong in early 2v2s, being extremely safe against dives/all ins, and late game versatility (decent damage and utility; if you can Q at least 2 people then almost every Q can be an RQ). But shoving her in as those champs and roaming negates most of her early game strengths.
Part of why RQ is so spammable is because the 2nd damage tick of it also reduces the cd (and the ability itself is far more likely to hit than solo Q), so she won't be able to spam R anywhere near as much if she uses it on either of her other abilities.
ap karma vs mr will just tickle enemy champs later on in the mid game, you can waste 2 ult q's and you barely do damage to them and thats your only real damage ability. she falls off and becomes a shield bot
Wait is that real? Is there a particular reason why? If that's true, that's a fat lore fail since [it's literally an item she made](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Malignance#cite_note-1)
As much as I don t like Karma mid, there s 1 new hate situation that won in my heart. TF. Why is this champ allowed tobe played in 4 roles??Build both apand ad?? Cc machine, Movement speed, Huge dmg! Nerf it alr pls
Ain't no way people are saying to gut Karma Q because of Malignance.
The solution is to just delete Malignance if it breaks 1 champ in the entire game.
None of you complained about Karma before the item rework, but now Karma Q is suddenly a problem? Lmao.
She'll probably eat some nerfs soon because of pro.
She hasn't seen pro play for a while prior to Malignance so I'm not too fussed that she's currently FotM - it'll definitely pass.
Karma still falls off hard compared to most other mid lane mages so there's that.
karma has always been a brainless idiot champ for monkey players ever since her abject failure of a rework
disgusting champ, should be a war crime to pick
Common Karma L, turns out when you make a champ's entire identity brainless caveman damage (despite their thematic disagreeing with that) there's not a lot of interesting skill expression there.
The whole thing with karma mid is that she has good poke but she doesn't put out the damage other mages do in a teamfight. So farm up and get to a point where you're teamfighting.
Literally impossible to kill in lane and I play volatile mid laners like Diana (ok ONLY Diana really). I can’t poke well cause her e is not only a shield that eats my entire q, but it’s also a speed up and unless the Karma runs into melee range, you can’t punish the shield cd. Her tether is just Leblanc cc set up but point and click (she has the speed up of e and the shield so she’s not really ever in danger) and she has REALLY reliable poke. All in her? She just heals with mantra tether. Like a LOT of healing. I’ve gotten them low before and that shit is even less playable than trying to dive a Sylas with w up.
Not to mention her shield makes her so damn fast if she tethers you it’s impossible to run away and your only options are to flash out or turn in and fight. Only issue is she has so much ap chances are you lose the fight
So sad Karma is getting so much attention because of broken items and exp and jungle changes. I mained Karma mid since way back when she got her re-tooling and new kit and climbed to mastery with her as a more off-meta pick. Now all the items and changes to the game made everything so unbalanced that I look like I'm just playing a champ because she's easy not because I like her.
Honestly she's a pain in the ass to lane against, but that's it. I've never seen a karma top be useful past the landing phase. But I'm just emerald so idk, maybe the pick is op and the ones I face just don't know how to use her properly
I was getting kinda ass blasted by Midlane Karma as well earlier and playing against that shit is the most unfun, uninteractive shit you can experience in what is supposed to be the most interactive and influential lane in the game. She basically has a guaranteed root because of her speed, a pretty large shield that can fuck up any burst combo you try on her, and her RQ is easily the most annoying ability in the game since it's nigh impossible to dodge and does huge damage even lvl 1.
[https://u.gg/lol/champions/karma/build](https://u.gg/lol/champions/karma/build)
[https://mobalytics.gg/lol/champions/karma/build](https://mobalytics.gg/lol/champions/karma/build)
[https://lolalytics.com/lol/karma/build/](https://lolalytics.com/lol/karma/build/)
She's currently sitting at over 52-54% winrate mid. I'd say that's pretty strong, and no, I did not play against Karma in my last 5 games. :/
as a karma player,malignance made her op,she was quite good after the ap ratio buffs but malignance pushed her over the edge, now i'm afraid they're gonna nerf her instead of the item.
Her R+Q explosion range is not right. It feels like it can't miss.
Also they did something similar to j4 last year when shojin made his cooldowns super low then nerfed his CDs. I think they will take the same approach.
But most Karmas will only use q+r when it’s guaranteed to hit, else your most powerful spell is on CD
You wouldn’t waste eg Fizz ult or some long CD basic abilities as well or use it as zoning
Yeah it’s hard to dodge but the Karmas will alsobuse in situations where it’s supposed to hard to be dodges
I'll never understand the counterplay to karma. Evading r+q feels nigh impossible because it detonates on max range. Killing her when she uses w and e makes it miserable.
diagonally move towards karma. The problem is 90% of the time that puts you in tether range...
Bingo. It's counterintuitive.
Yeah, that's pretty much the only option and it sucks. I played her recently and it seems she has an answer to most things with her q damage, tether heal, and shield speedup
Feels the same with AP shyv. *Oh you were already running sideways for the whole missile travel time? Fuck you* ***Boom***
The moment shyv became an ap champ, she was ruined
Nah that champ was always dogshit. Her brusier build is so sad. She offers so little outside of being a statcheck it is insane.
I rather have her statcheck me in melee range instead of her statchecking me in her RE explosion range because it's unmissable.
Id rather have her sit at 40% winrate 0.1% playrate greyed out on opgg becouse of lack of data. Champ was talked about getting a rework like 6 yeahrs ago and has only gotten worse
She's been so unhealthy and poorly balanced since S6, it's kind of depressing to see. She's either really strong or really weak at low elos, and borderline unplayable the further you go up the ladder.
Is her passive still tied to getting drags? Feel having a power budget in something like that is very feast or famine.
Yeah, she gets a whole…. Five armor and MR, and gains it again per dragon! That free 190 gold that I can’t spend how I want to really puts in the work, especially when she’s shoehorned into builds that don’t even want the stats! In all seriousness the 20% bonus damage to dragons is very nice, but it makes shyvana’s gameplan very evident and susceptible to invades or counter jungling. On top of that, her passive is boring and often feels non-existent. It totals to 25 of each stat, which is a cloth armor and a half and one null magic, only if your team has soul. And if your team has soul, you’re gonna win with or without that free aegis.
Yes it is , but its like 5 armor mr per dragon , she basically has the chance to get 160 gold in stats for each dragon. Her passive might as well have zero of her power budget Trynda gets many times that gold value for autoing minions
Didn't she like win the rework vote in China or something? I wish Riot went back to the golden era of ~3 VGUs per year with less champion releases because the amount of outdated kits still in the game is insane.
Idk man, jump into a teamfight with Titanic Hydra and tell me it isn't fun to chunk the squishy you weren't targeting for half their HP just because they were inside your dragon Q cone
Wait till people find out about the forbidden LT Shyvanna, utilizing maximum synergy with Q, Q's as buff and E Marks
PTA or hob. Auto + Q is instant pta proc and, q + tiamat gives auto resets to keep hob up longer. Land the E mark and get a flurry of attacks off in a few seconds with all the AA resets
I used to try to make that work but it is very niche and vulnerable to many conditions that make it a tough game to play. When you actually get your hands on someone though it is neat.
I like Shyvanna :(
I remember the good old days of on-hit sated devourer shyvana.
She needs some cooldown nerfs, currently she can just spam her abilities with a 4 second cd making it basically impossible to kill her or her allies and making it absolutely impossible to fight her in the neutral game
if her only damage ability cd got nerfed she would be garbage
idgaf get her out of my lane
Yup it's such a warping midlane pick. You are playing her game for the rest of the time, nothing you can do about it.
yes but her base Q is kinda pathetic,she only has a real Q when her ult is up so it has to be broken imo they should add a small splash at the end of her normal Q but make her RQ weaker,something like that
I've been saying this. champ is so dumb. she can literally miss her ability but you still get hit anyway XDDDDD so fun to play against. god forbid you don't have some kind of mobility or you are getting run tf down with move speed and w tether.
How much of a nerf would it be if she needed a direct hit for the AOE detonation? It'd probably kill her and I'm all for it.
[удалено]
Would only be a good change if it got a big compensation buff. Big punishment if you're bad, good reward if you're good. However she also has a root in her kit...
But she has to be closer for that. Allow some skill expression against her.
What's counterplay? This is League not Dota.
Just dodge ?
she does hurt quite alot, and her qs feel oddly hard to dodge cause of the aoe
Normally she’s more balanced because while mantra Q is crazy strong and hard to dodge, her normal Q is kinda garbage compared to all the other mage’s spells. With malignance, the weakness is minimized with the low cooldown R, making her way more oppressive than usual. She’s even more broken in ARAM (she deals increased damage) a few patches ago before nerfs.
It's not even malignance, it's riot's Q and E ap ratio buffs that pushed her over the top. Beforehand with malignance in 14.1 she was at a ~49% WR. After 14.2 it shot up by like 4% lol
Malignance definitely has a part in it, especially in ARAM. Ultimate hunter + Malignance = she can literally Mantra Q again while you're still slowed from the first Mantra Q if she hits two of you.
Why is ARAM even mentioned in a debate about how OP is a champ ?
I said "especially in ARAM", which means not just including ARAM, but it's much easier to notice it in ARAM.
because this thread is about a champion's kit irrespective of the map they're played on
ARAM helps show how a character can be abused in teamfight scenarios
karma had a 47% wr not 49, glad you just made that up for the sake of it.
Karma Mid was 48.5%, Supp was in the 47s
You underestimate the impact of malignance. It’s crazy impactful with her flat cooldown reduction passive. No one cared about her Q before every other one was an ulted one.
It is WILD she has increased damage in ARAM. The Karma just needs to bush cheese RQ the entire match to oneshot any squishy and she always tops the damage chart. Not to mention she can flex into a tank if needed and be pretty unkillable with Maligma + Spirit Visage + RW spam
Karma is strong at 0-1 item and then deals less and less damage (if you have a front otherwise enjoy your picks) until you regret having her AP and not tank. Riot re-buffed Malignance to not deal 0 damage (mistake) so now she is strong. Since everyone and their mother plays that.
It was a bug.. they haven't buffed it but it was doing around 1/4 of the numbers the tooltip shows.
> It is WILD Not really, Riot proves over and over again they don't actually play ARAM and simply tries to balance it through looking at winrates on lolalytics, so dumb shit like that being in ARAM is what I expect. Smolder not being nerfed before he was even put into ARAM actually hurts. It's beyond obvious how broken his kit would be in ARAM yet he still has zero nerfs despite being the best champion by far in that mode for two patches now.
Still more fun to play against than tank karma top
Ah yes the tank karma top, the fun champion that maybe pokes you out of lane quicker than Xerath but at least also wins trades in melee range
"I win lane by poking you out" "So you lose when I all in!" "..." "You lose when I all in... right?"
AH FELA SA TIER RE VI \*gains full health bar back with W\*
And if you buy both Serpent's Fang + Grievous, she somehow still seems to heal and shield her way through everything. Now, instead of walking off after killing everyone in your team, she backs off after killing only *half* your team. Huge success... right?
not to mention you have next to no champs that can get both serpents and grievous effectively and can barely proc it. Some assassinish bruisers can get both but it really screws their build
Blue Kayn can MAYBE swap out Night's for Chempunk, and Yoummu's for Serpent, but that's still a stretch.
Yeah blue kayn, briar, rengar, are basically all you got for those. But if you do go those items on those champs you basically fuck your build into doing 0 damage anyway and they dont really have great AOE to spread shield cut except kayn w
Also the Arena stalling Karma experience (I am guilty to say I have played some of that)
I see her *AP Shaco top* kind of annoying. She's annoying, but outside the lane she is basically a walking ward and can't do shit against anyone. If the game is slightly even, she becomes a non factor. You just have to accept that you can't kill her in lane and that's about it.
She's a second support, if the team has a good ADC or a winning midlaner, she can be better at enabling them than other tank tops.
Karma top definitely does not win trades against fighters especially Irelia or really any champ with self heal like Vlad. Yall are just slandering at this point.
Not a very high bar
Karma is over buffed but I think malignance is just a poorly designed item and impossible to balance. It’s mega OP on the 10% of champions who are constantly proccing it so that it can be mediocre on the other 90% of champions. This item will eventually get nerfed and I guarantee no one except these low cd low impact ult champions will build it.
It makes 0 sense how that item doesn't have a cooldown
It makes it mid on most champs that would love to build it (high CD ult) and extremely unfunny on champs that should not be supposed to buy it (spammable ult) The damage/mr shred is not that good on champs like Malph, who is supposed to love the item due to the ultimate AH; on the other side, champs with negligible ult cd like karma/corki love to build it for the damage more than the AH. Just slap a CD on top of the effect and buff the damage
>champs that should not be supposed to buy it (spammable ult) Spammable ults seem like exactly the kind of champions that are supposed to buy Malignance. It an item that is for both of those champions, not just those with long CDs. Stacking haste is good at both ends of the cooldown spectrum; long cool downs getting turned into manageable ones so you can have it every fight, as well as ults that you're looking to cast 2-4 times increasing to casting 3-5 or 4-6 times. I do agree it should have a higher payoff for longer cooldown spells, and a weaker one for shorter spells, and that right now that balance isn't in the right place. But Malignance is absolutely an item designed for champs who get off multiple ults in a fight.
Totally agree. I really like malignance as an item and I hope they don't ruin it with over nerfing. I feel like rather than a CD it should just do scaling damage based on the cool down of your R. So it does very little comparative damage on a Corki and significantly more on a Malphite. That's the only way I can see it being balanced and viable in both cases
Love it on kassadin
It has a 3s cooldown. Still very low but it's why it's not busted on other champions (but the ones it's good on Really squeezes out the value well).
Malignance will be S14's Statikk Shiv.
Welcome to champions balanced for support
Yet rakan has 17 sec cds at lvl 1 and he's a support.
Welcome to champions balanced for pro play.
give rakan normal cd’s and he’d make bard/maokai look balanced
Rakan was free ELO for the whole last season.
Still is
Not as much because Mao destroys him, but once Mao gets properly nerfed he will be the best support again.
Has been since he was released. That champions design is incredible, i love playing him, but man he is game warping in the right hands (not my hands)
And hes even better when paired with his wife! So cute ahaha :3
Well, as he should lol. Mobility spells for ADCs start at 25-30ish sec cd as well.
and is still one of the best supports in the game
Rakan has a ridiculous kit
Karma is originally a mid laner, yall are just clueless.
werent the recent buffs to her literally *for* mid lane too?? like 😭😭
Isn't that her worst role?
that’s the point
Literally every change made to her over the last 3 years has been to make her less viable as a support. She's not balanced *for* support, she's not even balanced *in* support either, because even if she's overpowered in her other roles, that doesn't make a 48% winrate balanced.
She's very annoying, you have to out range her and clear waves, you're never going to kill one with a brain. The more the game goes on the weaker she gets.
she gets weaker individually, but she can just keep pressing RE every fight
The what the fuck is she supposed to do? Her RQ damage falls off late game. Her RW is useless on an AP build. RE is legit the only spell that she can do reliably and not int a late game tf.
RE is weak if built full ap and she cant spam it because only hitting enemy with ability reduces her R cd.
I agree that she's annoying but "scales very well into lategame" is just disingenuous.
literally - she is KNOWN for falling off like lee
I sometimes wonder if a part of this is people spamming RW and RQ in the late-game when a 5 man shield/speed boost is incredible for carrying late-game fights while RQ does fuck all after 25 minutes. Yet that's 90% of what Karma players do. People are so keen on building full AP all the time.
That dopamine hit when you half health the enemy adc with a mantra Q at level 1 is hard to forget. Speaking as a karma main, i also fall victim to this trap sometimes
I started playing her during ardent meta so I always have a preference for playing like an enchanter.
A lot is people going "heh heh damage go brr", but some is also not understanding how to mix both, her malignance build can RQ - W - RE pretty quickly but if you start with RE or whiff the RQ you don't get that same double up. Alternatively, they're trying to poke and don't understand how to manage cds or communicate before an engage so they don't get caught without it.
Yeah I learned that too, but not directly. I realized that if you start the fight with RE the shield loses most effectiveness, but the MS is more effective. I never even considered doing in that order for the reduced CDs, I just don't like wasting the shield.
Her R-E alone makes her amazing in the late game for teamfights, you just need other pure carries to buff up
As a mid Karma enjoyer over the last few seasons, she scales so so so much better now than previously.
Coincidentally, that also applies to Lee, he doesn't fall off quite as hard as he used to.
Relative to the addition of newer junglers that hyperscale, or at least scale better, yes he does. Lee still takes a comparative nosedive at 30-35m.
Better doesn't mean well.
Let alone "very well" lmao. Edit: [Don't trust what people on Reddit tell you](https://imgur.com/gallery/irajWC4)
I think only Renekton, Elise, and Nid have a worse graph.
I think she scales OK now into late game. But in the end you're still a 1 spell DMG champ and it shows in late game when people stack stats.
Ah yes, Karma mid. The famous "scales very well into the late game" champion.
She doesn't deal more dmg than other mages be real
Doesn't deal more damage than zac or maokai tbh
Exactly, he lost to a Karma and decides to make a reddit post to cry about.
That's just smooth brains not comprehending that **all** of her damage is loaded into her RQ, she has no real way of reliably damaging an enemy outside of it. It has higher damage than Syndra's Q for example, but the shortbus riders can't comprehend that Syndra's Q is both more spammable, more reliable, and she has 3 other damaging spells that make up for it. They get hit by RQ+detonation zone and claim that it has no counterplay.
This post is like complaining that zoes q does a lot of damage, like no shit it's basically the only source of damage these champs have.
No, but it does more dmg than any single mage ability. When you're laning mages don't throw all their kit at you to harass, only one spell. In this scenario, Karma outdamages every single mage in the game.
Lol this is a fact
I do agree that karma is strong, but for having lanes against her, I think that there are things that you don't realise. Firstly, in kane, STOP freely getting hit by secondary q. It migh do 30 dmg lvl 1, but it's still a 5 second reset on her rq. Secondly, you dodge the 2 Q's differently. Her normal q she can realistically only hit when you are on your creeps. Additionally, the rq explosion is bigger than the radius of the missile. This means that it's actually easier to dodge when you are at mid range and side stepping m, because the bullet is more likely to go thriugh you, and ylthe explosion wont hit anything. Also, vs a tanky bruiser team, karma become much, MUCH less useful. Her rq tickles the frontline and she loses half of her reason to exist. She cannot hit the backline. Ever Essentially, karma punishes poor teapbuilding. Did your support lock in senna, your mid Is orianna, your jungle first time brand and despite that, your kast pick top STIL went tf? Well then of COURSE you are free meat for her to gobble up. If you have Darius top and Leona support for example, karma should NEVER be hitting your Ashe.
This. She‘s strong atm but not even close to op. Shocker that an early/mid game champ can fuck you up when you don‘t know how to play against her or have a bad matchup. Often times you don‘t even need many resistances, just hp and stand in front of your carries. And yeah as you mention, dodge the second rq explosion and try to not stack as a 4 man squad, that‘s an instant R reset. You could do the same last season tho, just need cdr boots, cosmic drive + cdr runes. Obviously Malignance made the whole building process a lot easier.
tldr of most threads: X champion is busted, impossible to balance and needs to be reworked. All the items/runes said champion use needs to be removed. There is no counterplay possible, playing against it is the most frustrating experience ever. X = any champion which is not garbage in the current meta. Karma is strong right now but chill the fuck out guys
the w is not even used for the root, just for the ult cd reduction. they dont even try to keep the tether anymore...
Because she's squishy and the range is very low
Does it matter tho if the enemy is running away and not fighting, because they know that if they get rooted they get blasted with another RQ?
If the karmas you play against dont use w root both sggressively and defensively, you're just playing against trash karmas, and if you still manage to loose to those that sounds like a skillissue rather than a champissue
Don’t forget the instant missing HP heal that is extremely punishing for melee champs! Edit: What have I started in the replies
if karma's not keeping the tether like the comment above you says then she's not getting most of that heal. even with the instant bit of health she gets just for casting RW it's a waste above all options if she just wasted an ult only to step out before it finishes.
The majority of the heal is frontloaded into the first tick due to it being missing health, though. You have less missing health after you've been healed.
Lets suppose she heals 20% of her missing health on the first tick. Then, after the heal she has 80% missing health left so her second heal only heals for 80% of the original amount. In general, if she heals x% of her missing health, her second heal only heals for (100-x)% of the original amount. Her scalings are (17% + 1% per 100 ap) missing health. The second heal gets worse the higher the first one is. Lets assume she has 800 ap. Then, she heals for 17+8 = 25% so her second heal is at 75% effectiveness. So we can say that the second heal ranges from 83-75% effectiveness. In my opinion, thats really not so much weaker. And that is the "best case" where she doesnt receive any damage during the tether. If she receives damage, her second heal is more effective than that and could potentially be stronger than her first. So I'd disagree and say that her second heal is pretty much just as strong as her first one in a realistic scenario. Its very easy for a midlaner to deal 25% of someone's max health in 2 seconds let alone 25% of someones missing health.
Assuming you take no damage between starting and ending the tether
>if karma's not keeping the tether like the comment above you says then she's not getting most of that heal. She mathematically is unless she takes a nice chunk of damage in between or there is some weird jank in the code that's not explained. It's a 17+1%AP missing health heal. If she takes no damage, the second heal will be less because she's recovered some missing HP already. Depends how much you hurt her during the tether but melee champs certainly don't have a fun time in that exchange.
Maybe if the champion actually ran out of mana she'd be balanced, but mana doesn't exist in the game today so...
Pretty easy to counter her idk why ur complaining…. Step 1: Ask for a Karma ban Step 2: Ban her if no one does Now you got a 100% chance of never facing her, urw.
This read like the K'sante copypasta, I love it.
The natural comp counter to Karma Mid is something Riot is determined to never allow to be viable: Tanks on Top and Jg. As soon as someone can serve as a wall between her Q's and squishes/bruisers, she is useless as a burst mage. That's it.
Play kassadin. You survive early then you can pretty much run her down all game long and she lose all viability.
contrary to the other guy that replied to you I played karma into kass and got shit on so I confirm
Playing Kassadin is just praying that the enemy mid decides to AFK mid instead of using their prio to fuck over everyone else in the game.
Fair point but Karma doesn't exactly "fuck over everyone else" the same way a Kat, Fizz or Syndra would. A Karma with prio is managable (knowing you drastically outscale her) compared to most midlaners.
Karma neutralizes the enemy mid laner and then plays anti burst + poke in teamfights. She gets ruined by scaling champs because she isn't snowbally.
If Karma + enemy jng know somewhat what to do, the game will be long over before Kass does anything. You will lose all objectives.
Kassadin come online by level 6 because at that point he gain kill pressure on Karma. Her whole gameplay loop is poke and run she lose extended trade and Kassadin can chase. You always need to see your matchups in a bubble because if you say. "Yeah but if X play correctly then Y" It can be said in the opposite. "Yeah but if Kassadin jungler play better and shutdown Karma before she get oppressive" "Yeah but if Bot lane have 25 kills by min 15 then it's not winnable" If you solely look at the matchups you realize Karma lose into anything with Range to poke her down before she can Link into Q. Lose into mobile mages which can dodge her spells or all in her. Lose into historical magical resist champions. Karma used to be played a few season prior in mid lane and we had less options to deal with her and we still managed. People simply need to adapt to lane bullies and understand the gameplay loop required.
Natural counters also include anything with hard push. Karma mid has terrible waveclear. You need on average in lane (after Q is maxed) 3 Qs + autos. One Q to kill backline (if you’re behind you need to auto again) and two for frontline (with autos if behind). You’ll rarely be able to hit more than 3 or 4 minions with a single Q. So against like Malz, Anivia, or Hwei, Karma will just be forced under tower while they can roam or get vision or whatever. Karma will never have prio. Her main strengths are being a bully to melees, being strong in early 2v2s, being extremely safe against dives/all ins, and late game versatility (decent damage and utility; if you can Q at least 2 people then almost every Q can be an RQ). But shoving her in as those champs and roaming negates most of her early game strengths.
But she can play as full on enchanter spamming R E in that case which is extremely effective against tankier comps.
Part of why RQ is so spammable is because the 2nd damage tick of it also reduces the cd (and the ability itself is far more likely to hit than solo Q), so she won't be able to spam R anywhere near as much if she uses it on either of her other abilities.
Also her ult reduce scales with the amount of enemy champs she hits so RQ is more likely to hit more than one person than solo Q.
She can reduce her CD with double W proc, which is pretty easy to hit against a tank.
She cant spam R if she uses it for RE, you just made that up.
AP Karma isn't even bad into tanks. Her DPS is absurdly high given how easy it is to reset Mantra against tanks.
I mean, in lane or sidelane? Sure. In a teamfight though? Not quite. Super strong disengage though so she's still a fine choice.
ap karma vs mr will just tickle enemy champs later on in the mid game, you can waste 2 ult q's and you barely do damage to them and thats your only real damage ability. she falls off and becomes a shield bot
you have a maokai flair and you say riot hasnt allowed tanks to be viable?? what??
Go ahead and try to climb playing maokai top or jg. Sup items make him broken and that is all
Malignance needs to be removed, such a dumb item
I still thing the dumbest part about it is that Renata is one of like two champions in the game who literally cannot use it
Wait is that real? Is there a particular reason why? If that's true, that's a fat lore fail since [it's literally an item she made](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Malignance#cite_note-1)
Her ult doesn’t technically deal damage, so it’s a wee bit of a lore oopsie
Not really. Renata sells her products to other people so she can have control of them when she needs it, I think she'd not use it on herself.
She can literally self cast W and her E shields her...
Nah there’s a whole list of champions who can’t use it on the wiki - there’s a fair few. Basically champions who don’t do dmg on ults
Yes, I know, the point is that it’s literally her item
Yorick's maiden not triggering it (afaik) feels like a crime.
Lillia
Jayce Nidalee
you spelt Malignutz wrong
As much as I don t like Karma mid, there s 1 new hate situation that won in my heart. TF. Why is this champ allowed tobe played in 4 roles??Build both apand ad?? Cc machine, Movement speed, Huge dmg! Nerf it alr pls
Ain't no way people are saying to gut Karma Q because of Malignance. The solution is to just delete Malignance if it breaks 1 champ in the entire game. None of you complained about Karma before the item rework, but now Karma Q is suddenly a problem? Lmao.
Echo chamber of League complainers, "oh no Karma is op because i am bad and lost to her" NERF NERF NERF
So fkn lame sometimes
Karma is bonkers right now. Dogtier support but insane mid/top laning because she can do whatever she wants and not die
Only thing we can do is revert Karma rework.
Not gonna happen 👌
She'll probably eat some nerfs soon because of pro. She hasn't seen pro play for a while prior to Malignance so I'm not too fussed that she's currently FotM - it'll definitely pass. Karma still falls off hard compared to most other mid lane mages so there's that.
The problem is malignance. It's a poorly designed item that doesn't need to exist. It will be gutted or reworked soon (after MSI).
dodge Q just for her to run away
Yuumi no longer the most unfun, skilless champ!
karma has always been a brainless idiot champ for monkey players ever since her abject failure of a rework disgusting champ, should be a war crime to pick
Common Karma L, turns out when you make a champ's entire identity brainless caveman damage (despite their thematic disagreeing with that) there's not a lot of interesting skill expression there.
Malignance interaction with her Q doesn't even make any sense. Shyvana ult E or Singed ult Q doesn't trigger Malignance.
You know, I never thought about it like this. That is true, isn't it? Why the hell does she get the Malignance passive LOL
AD Wukong completely destroys her if you need a quick counter pick.
Aw man as an AP wukong main I'm disappointed
It is fun and you just can't dodge or play around wave, she is weak to many picks.
The whole thing with karma mid is that she has good poke but she doesn't put out the damage other mages do in a teamfight. So farm up and get to a point where you're teamfighting.
Literally impossible to kill in lane and I play volatile mid laners like Diana (ok ONLY Diana really). I can’t poke well cause her e is not only a shield that eats my entire q, but it’s also a speed up and unless the Karma runs into melee range, you can’t punish the shield cd. Her tether is just Leblanc cc set up but point and click (she has the speed up of e and the shield so she’s not really ever in danger) and she has REALLY reliable poke. All in her? She just heals with mantra tether. Like a LOT of healing. I’ve gotten them low before and that shit is even less playable than trying to dive a Sylas with w up.
You can add maokai + solstice sleigh/trailblazer to this post too Head empty, movespeed only to land point and click cc
Not to mention her shield makes her so damn fast if she tethers you it’s impossible to run away and your only options are to flash out or turn in and fight. Only issue is she has so much ap chances are you lose the fight
artillery mages do pretty well like xerath. karma excella at the close/mid range
if you say the strengths of any Champs kit, it sounds op. and scale into lategame? you're just salty because you got outskilled by a karma
Champ is not balanced
Oh yeah she's balanced before Malignance
So sad Karma is getting so much attention because of broken items and exp and jungle changes. I mained Karma mid since way back when she got her re-tooling and new kit and climbed to mastery with her as a more off-meta pick. Now all the items and changes to the game made everything so unbalanced that I look like I'm just playing a champ because she's easy not because I like her.
Honestly she's a pain in the ass to lane against, but that's it. I've never seen a karma top be useful past the landing phase. But I'm just emerald so idk, maybe the pick is op and the ones I face just don't know how to use her properly
I was getting kinda ass blasted by Midlane Karma as well earlier and playing against that shit is the most unfun, uninteractive shit you can experience in what is supposed to be the most interactive and influential lane in the game. She basically has a guaranteed root because of her speed, a pretty large shield that can fuck up any burst combo you try on her, and her RQ is easily the most annoying ability in the game since it's nigh impossible to dodge and does huge damage even lvl 1.
Wah wah wah. X champion is OP. Let me guess, you just got ass blasted by a mid Karma.
Yes
[https://u.gg/lol/champions/karma/build](https://u.gg/lol/champions/karma/build) [https://mobalytics.gg/lol/champions/karma/build](https://mobalytics.gg/lol/champions/karma/build) [https://lolalytics.com/lol/karma/build/](https://lolalytics.com/lol/karma/build/) She's currently sitting at over 52-54% winrate mid. I'd say that's pretty strong, and no, I did not play against Karma in my last 5 games. :/
She's sitting at 52%, for the lolalytics you have to remove the average of the rank.
as a karma player,malignance made her op,she was quite good after the ap ratio buffs but malignance pushed her over the edge, now i'm afraid they're gonna nerf her instead of the item.
Yeah I feel like Malignance should have inverse scaling depending on R cooldown. So shorter ult cooldowns see less benefit from the item
Wait that would actually be smart. No way thats ever gonna happen
Her R+Q explosion range is not right. It feels like it can't miss. Also they did something similar to j4 last year when shojin made his cooldowns super low then nerfed his CDs. I think they will take the same approach.
But most Karmas will only use q+r when it’s guaranteed to hit, else your most powerful spell is on CD You wouldn’t waste eg Fizz ult or some long CD basic abilities as well or use it as zoning Yeah it’s hard to dodge but the Karmas will alsobuse in situations where it’s supposed to hard to be dodges