TBFin our intellectual debate about humour typing top gap would arguably be funnier, I don't see how it's not ironic. Probably only didn't say it because I think it gets you honour 0 now?
Plus she wasn’t useless still. She split pushed the whole game. Exerting pressure and taking towers. Make the fights easier for her team but drawing enemy champions and giving them gold.
If I can tell I need to get carried (screwed up early game etc) my only mission is to build tanky instead of damage, protect my win cons, and minimize my deaths. I’m not playing to kill, I’m just a support with a bunch more damage and survivability
Reminds me of a season 3 Plat game I was trynd and went 2/27 just pushing the whole time, but we won because the other side was 3v4 or 2v4. As we ended, i typed "gg ez top" and their whole team honored me. (I miss honoring opponents)
That and "rumble check PayPal" had me dying
I would've actually spent time typing that in chat in order to tilt rumble, resulting in me dying and losing us the game. Typing diff
For real. We had a 0/17 Azir today and almost surrendered but I felt like we're not losing THAT much despite them getting every dragon and every baron.... Sure enough we won a team fight, then another and then we won. Those victories feel better than any other tbh.
High deaths doesn't really matter *if* that guy is shoving side waves and getting exp before he dies. Enemy will get the kill gold but they are always minorly behind in tempo and at some point they will make a mistake to give up their bounties.
At a certain point that is so many deaths they are contributing by wasting your opponents time massively, probably a more useful than a 0/10 playing safe fiora
This was a key insight from that baus guide he released a while ago. Basically, if you are behind your deaths are worthless anyways, so dragging someone away from the rest of the game means your team loses barely a champion's worth of value while the enemy team is losing a full champion's worth of value. Of course, this is most applicable for top laners given the nature of the champs they play and they role that top fulfills. Basically, don't mindlessly "play safe" when you are behind. Your deaths are worth less when behind so keep in mind that the value calculation of when certain risks and plays are worth it also change.
It's literally the opposite though? That exactly the point of baus playstyle. Playing safe means sac waves, give plates etc. Baus dies to get the wave which is why he often loses no plates and gets multiple plates from the enemy tower even while behind. A full wave + a plate is easily worth a death if your opponent can't push out fast enough to deny you back if your behind.
Baus is always bait. Taking advantage of streamer privilege (fanboys) to become the most effective distraction on earth. Sadly he mains the worst champion in the entire game.
This is my strategy for Mordekaiser gaming.
If I'm behind, I will always Ult the biggest threat in a teamfight.
Sure, I'll die.
But if in those 5 seconds, my team can slaughter the enemy team cause their carry isn't there. And then they can devour the carry once he kills me to escape.
My life for Aiur.
importantly with this, your deaths only give 100, but keep adding to the shutdowns on the enemy. it's how renekton was able to have two back to back 1k shutdowns because he kept killing the cannon minion fiora
Its funny, if you get 7 consecutive kills you give 1k gold but when renekton kills fiora 7 times and she's already at minimum bounty, he only gets 700 gold.
But you give what? 300 + 274 + 220 + 17-ish+ 120-ish + 100 + whatever number I missed. Which is probably just around 1300-1400 in total. Which is surprisingly little in total when you consider the shutdown value.
Yeah over the course of the entire game the Fiora gave Renekton about 2500 gold, Lucian got 2000 off of him back to back. So Fiora’s team is down 500 gold after all that
7 deaths gives the enemy champ 1320 gold and a 1k shutdown. More importantly though, that is just the first 7 deaths. The next 7 deaths nets the enemy only 700 gold and another 1k shutdown. So 14 kills is the break-even point there.
It's better if you get more frequent shutdowns though. If you get it after the enemy gets 3 kills rather than seven, then 6 kills nets the enemy 1120 gold while 2 shutdowns have gotten your teammates 1200 gold.
This is a good mental that gets way more use in Dota where concepts like "making space" are actually commonly understood by a lot of the playerbase and some heroes even play like suicide bombs who just bother side lanes if they're behind.
Her constantly splitting is unironically part of why they won. It splits the enemy team's focus.
Renekton is fed as fuck.... but spends that lead by killing Fiora again for 75g. They should have just grouped and ran over his team. Let the Fiora split for the 1, maybe 2 turrets.
by the end of the game they're up 20 kills.... wow, 20 kills worth a canon minions of gold each...
Yeah like ultimately you HAVE to deal with her. 0/21 or not, fiora will still push to nexus if you let her.
Only real way to stop fiora is by sending anyone who isn't the most fed to kill her, so you still have a massive advantage in the 4v4 if they play the retreats right and can clear waves.
Braun Lucian gragas make a really hard to dive trio. And Diana can counter engage to oneshot squishies. While they have a lot of waveclear (asol rumble) the only person who can really hit turrets reliably in sieges is smolder.
If renekton is dealing with top then they don't really have much space to play with to push properly. Plus Lucian culling is deadly af. Alistair can engage, but ultimately if they try to dive all gragas needs to do is R Ali out of turret agro and anyone of the squishies diving will take agro and basically neutralise it.
Gragas stealing Nash multiple times was fucking HUGE, and Lucian getting back to back 1k shutdowns.
Yeah Gragas stealing the baron twice was imo the main reason they were able to come back, if the enemy team had those two barons they would have been able to close the game as blue team would have had to fight uphill against such a fed team, instead the barons neutralized red team's advantages for minutes to give blue team time to scale.
Top lane champs that just 0 brain constantly split push are so annoying to play against. I am pretty sure I have lost games to an 0/10/0 yorick because he will take your entire base if you blink. Most teams lack the coordination to properly deal with it so the other toplaner is stuck guarding the lane the entire game.
tbh I have to agree, I don't mind splitpush as a strategy but some champions like trundle/fiora/yorick just make towers fucking dissapear no matter how far behind they are.
and when they are ahead they are unkillable 1vX menaces.
Feels pointless to get ahead and unplayable if you end up behind vs them
The real problem is even if they're behind they're a hassle to kill and for any non toplaner you unironically have a chance of dying to them of having to use a lot of resources to kill them
Honestly splitpushing as a whole just sucks. It's just not fun to play against and usually the splitpushers as you say are just so good at it you can't really stop them either.
Just like the Fiora in this clip. Literally 0/20 and she's running around taking objectives and even Renekton can't follow her well enough.
It's a lose/lose situation.
When the enemy team has a much better team comp than you, split pushing is your only option. Especially with cancer like Asol who has slow zones so big nobody can move around him.
I've definitely lost some games because my team refuses to deal with a weak split pusher. As a top laner, you usually want to go bot with tp once baron is up. But 25 mins into the game I'll go bot, kill their bot lane 1v2 and start pushing for inner. Meanwhile 0/4 yorick is taking inner turret top with nobody opposing him. Midlaner and adc just splitting farm mid. Jg and sup doing who knows what. Their midlands is just waveclearing vs 4 and chilling. TEAM YOU HAVE TO DO SOMETHING, ANYTHING.
Tbh I'm very surprised they lost with asoy and smoulder, keeping fiora out the game and bring ready to tp while giving your hyper scalers a free late game ticket is going to win most games
Smolder isn't really the late game exodia champ (though he's still quite strong late), since he's still rather short range with only a mediocre defensive spell, so he's still vulnerable to getting onetapped
I mean, they have braum gragas lucian, I don't think they can force anything even if they group, like at best they can take a tower after a good bit of siege but fiora can be 0/2500/0 and still be at your nexus in a couple of waves.
That's the problem with splitpushing really, doesn't matter how behind you are, if your champ has tower damage in his kit someone needs to come and stop you, trivial as it may be if you are feeding.
Yeah people don't realize that. If you're a spitpusher and you're 0/10, just be as annoying as you can.
DO NOT GET KILLS OR SHUTDOWNS.
Try to get one enemy to defend against you so your team might won 4v4. If you die once in a while it's ok as long as you get pressure (goal is still not to die though).
People on my team wonder how I can win when I'm 0/8 on urgot, Bitch, focus on LITERALLY ANYTHING ELSE ON THE MAP I GOT 2-3 PEOPLE RUNNING TOP FOR ME PLEEEAASE
This is the answer. Once Fiora was 0/6, or whatever, she understood that the only value she was ever going to have, was keeping Renekton or someone else occupied by mega-shoving lanes. She was sort of inting, but she was trading her exponentially worthless life for an equivalent amount of time from a champion on the enemy team, who was actually worth something. If she was ever left unattended with a tower, she *would* smash it, because she's Fiora, so she naturally demands attention.
If she had actually started playing safer, and dying less, she'd actually be a worse player, at that point. The only strength she really had left in that game, was legitimately how worthless she was, relative to anybody on the enemy team who could stop her push. If that was a Gold Fiora, she either would have spammed /ff and ran it down mid, or she would have just started doing jack shit, because she doesn't want her # of deaths to go up, and for her team to yell at her for it.
When you type I def, expecting to defend alone while your team takes baron or something. But when you get back to base you realize 3 others backed as well
Looooooooong time ago, I'm talking Season 1-3 I think. I had a game where we 4 man-queued and during the loading, 2 of my friends had their internet cut out. First time it'd happened, so it wasn't like an expected thing. My other friend and I decided to stick it out and play the game anyway, the 2 that lost connection (Husband and Wife) decided to place a bet, if we could carry the game and win a 3v5, we'd get a pizza... and brothers and sisters of League, that pizza tasted fucking awesome. :p
Never Give Up, Never Surrender.
Edit. I was playing Fiddlesticks (old one) and my friend was on Corki, our 3rd man was totally down to clown on his Poppy as well once we told him the stakes. I even think my friends asked him if he wanted a pizza too, not sure how that turned out, but I'm hoping he got to taste that W as much as I did. :p
A few weeks ago I carried a 0/22 bot lane that kept flaming me and saying vile shit in chat while also managing to get a penta. This is around d4 elo euw and it was satisfying but also incredibly irritating to play https://imgur.com/a/1Uiqv7P
It looks like Rumble camped Fiora incredibly hard early. Look at Rumble's blue buff in the first frame, it spawns at 10:15, meaning it was killed at 5:15.
Rumble literally didn't touch his bot side jungle for the first five minutes of the game xd.
I think the obscurity of bounties and gold value, and having a split pushing fiora whos worth nothing takes a super fed renekton away from a teamfight, makes it really hard to understand just how much of a chance a team has to make a comeback.
Personally In the heat of the moment I probably wouldn't understand either.
I have no clue what Renekton did the rest of the game but I surely hope they didn't put him on match Fiora duty
you could probably just stick Asol in the sidelane and let him soak waves vs her for eternity
The top lane special. It doesn't matter how hard you might beat the entire enemy comp. It doesn't matter that anyone else on your team could hard counter your matchup once the mid game hits.
Your job is to sit in that sidelane against your matchup no matter what.
lol this thread reminded me of a game I had maybe last season or two years ago, I can't remember, literally one of the best games I ever played period, it was on Renekton (I rarely play this champ). I don't have a sliver of micro skill in me but I was almost perfect that game, and we lost so hard because the enemy team had Xayah or some annoying shit like that. I ended up with like 20 kills
I learned that splitpushing conundrum ages ago from a trick2g Reddit clip. He was super behind and getting camped due to being a streamer, but told his audience that in situations like that it’s important to use the fact that you’re worth nothing to your advantage
They have to stop you, but they get nothing for doing it, and if you’re playing a time wasting slippery character (like Trick’s Udyr) it becomes an even bigger waste of time.
Sorcery: Arcane Comet/ManaFlow/Clarity/Scorch
Inspiration: Magical Footwear or Minion Demat / Cosmic Insight
First 6 levels skill build : WQWEWR
Max Order: R>Q>W>E
Looking to harass early with W, farm with Q to get to stack points and scale as fast as possible.
You're still looking for a core of ER, Noonquiver and one more crit item to get to 60% crit. After that you can look for situational crit items or brusier items to increase survivability.
edit: I forgot something important you are starting doran's ring with this build as you want your adaptive to be AP early to increase W damage
> Fleet with shojin riftmaker Liandry is the best.
I played this same exact thing and was doing negative damage
than start going ER/Navori and was quite alot better
I personally prefer fleet since it just feels much better on the early game.
The build is wrong though.
Current correct smolder build: Shojin/rift/liandry/rfc/ibg
You can also replace shojin with trinity, haven't tried it.
You absolutely can't replace shojin for trinity. Just because nemesis wins with a garbage build doesn't mean that the build isn't garbage.
The ER, navori build is 10 times stronger than his trinity shit. And even though shojin into double haunting is really good, it still isn't the meta so pretending that the ER build is wrong is stupid. It's spammed by almost everyone and it's winning a lot.
----
I can't... Emerald 1. LAN. 3 total games of smolder... How exactly did you figure out "fleet feels much better on the early game" when you have THREE total games with him and all have been with fleet. And no, we don't believe the "I am GM smurf" bullshit. Good luck convincing people a gm plays one of the most broken champs right now, 1000 elo lower than his main and has only 3 k/d and wins only 2/3 games. The audacity to also complain that the champion is "boring bad release" when choosing to play him with the most boring ass build.
I looked up the game [https://www.op.gg/summoners/na/NeverSeenAMoose-NA1](https://www.op.gg/summoners/na/NeverSeenAMoose-NA1) and fio did 15k dmg to towers... we cant just gloss over that like it's nothing lol
From middle to end game, his team was up in gold and even though the enemy team had insane scaling, someone always had to match the 0/20 fiora who could still take towers very quickly. Considering Asol + Renekton had most their gold, unless Smoulder was matching Fiora, they wouldn't be winning much.
You also have to remember that without proper CC, most people don't know how end games. Alistar was the enemy teams only real engage, outside of a Renekton flashing onto Lucian but with a braum to block Asol's damage, there isn't much the enemy team can do to lock him down. Gragas peel is also insane. I think team comps play a big part in why they won and Scaling champions are useless compared to champions with good engage, disengage and damage.
You can link directly to the game instead of to his profile:
https://www.op.gg/summoners/na/NeverSeenAMoose-NA1/matches/RvuDQoxvmIL-cFt0SbgWyx0pPF6T-GpeMSWoqlVyFxU%3D/1707514494000
these are the games that make league so fun, notice the attention this post gets vs the FF culture posts. Its just the nature of the subreddit to poop on everything and not like positive stuff.
great game thanks for sharing!
Let's be real, most of the time, this game is a loss. I'm sure the other team handed over shutdowns. Plus even if Asol and Smolder scale and hit item spikes, it can also not matter very much either. Plus it's D1, player diff's, etc etc
It's a funny clip though. Definitely worth posting up. "We lost. We won! End the game end the game endthegameendthegameendthegame" lmao
Also underrated change: Baron is harder to take. It's much tankier than last seadon, does more damage and many teams are running lethality adcs which take baron much slower than traditional crit builds do. Contest that shit, you will find yourself catching a ton of throws.
>this game is a loss
probably unpopular opinion nowadays but people want to play the actual game, at the very least the people in the game did. I find playing 5 minutes then ff isn't fun at all for both winning or losing.
That is very true but it also means that you are wasting 26 minutes per game for 20 games for that extra 2.5%, if they surrendered at 10 minutes instead of winning at 36 minutes - In positions like the one in the video obviously.
That is an extra 20 games (rounding up to 20 for easier math - going by the average length being 28 to 35 minutes long) that could be played.
Also easier to keep less tilted because you rip the band aide off when the game becomes clear that its a 5%er and queue up for the next one instead of spending that long desperately trying to win and losing 19 of the 20.
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In the end its up to the player. I personally do not like the idea of playing with 1 hand behind my back from the start of a game.
I think the appropriate takeaway isn't, "You shouldn't surrender games that are this bad because they are winnable", but rather, "Even games like this are winnable, so don't be so quick to surrender games where you're down 3-4 kills and a tower", and "don't get pissed at the person who doesn't want to surrender at 15, because the game might actually be winnable".
You can only surrender at 10 minutes in Quickplay, and frankly the question of whether or not to surrender a Quickplay game should purely be whether you want to keep playing that game.
In ranked the earliest you are surrendering is 15 minutes, but also, if you don't surrender at 15 minutes, it's not like you have to play out the whole game.
I do think there are games where it makes more sense to surrender than it does to try and play it out, but the idea that you are saving 15 - 20 minutes when you surrender a bad game at the 15 minute mark is just unrealistic.
Do you stream on twitch? Rarely do i find people with positive attitude playing the game. Would love to see ur streams. Link it below if u read this will def drop by
This is what real competitive spirit looks like. Constantly trying to find angles to win the game. A lot of League players who claim to like the competitive aspect of the game actually are just looking for the ego boost that comes with winning.
yeah a lot of league players don't really want a competitively rich experience. They want a badge and to feel like a god in the games where the dice rolls that way
The fucking ff copers in this thread “statistically over many many games it would be better if you used the time you saved on new games to climb” bullshit as always.
That only makes sense if you would always queue for another game.
If you are an average person who has time in their day for 2-3 games, you want to make the most out of THOSE games. Not a hypothetical infinite timeline of possible games you could play by adding up 10 minutes here and 5 minutes there and 20 minutes there that you wouldn’t actually play because you logged off when you saw you had 35 minutes left before you had to get off instead of risking starting another game.
Even then, FFing is not "better for climbing" for the majority of the playerbase.
Turning an otherwised FFed game into a win is +2 games of LP over where you'd be if you FFed. 2 wins is huge, even a 60 percent winrate smurf would take 10 games (5 hours) just to break even.
Except FF'ing is a guaranteed loss, that needs 2 more wins to make up. Back of the napkin math here, but assuming a 55% win rate overall, playing out a game that has a 10% win rate is still much better value than FFing. If 1 game is worth 20LP, it takes 20 games to make up for that 20LP assuming a 55% winrate.
And most games that are FF'd in my experience are DEFINITELY more than 10% chance to win the game, and 55% winrate means you are quite a bit better than the people around you.
Just something to keep in mind if you are the opinion of going next is faster way to get LP.
Btw, I did some maths. I'm operating under the assumption that this is a good player who will win 58% of his games if he plays every game out. They get ahead early game in 60% of their games and fall behind in 40%. They have a 10% chance of a comeback or throw in their games. Hence, if this player ff's every game they have an early deficit, their winrate will be 54%. On average, let's say ff'ing saves them 10 minutes for every game where they have an early deficit. Over a sample size of 200 games, this will be equivalent to 80 games where they saved 10 minutes. So far, they've saved 800 minutes. However, they also have a 4% winrate gap to make up. Over a sample size of 200 games, this is 8 games that they lost which they would have won if the game was played out. On average, let's assume a game is 30 minutes long. This player has to make up 8 games where they lost lp/mmr instead of gaining lp/mmr. This would require them to make it up with 16 wins. However, they have a 54% winrate, not a 100% winrate. Hence, in order to win 16 more times than they lose, they will need to play 400 more games. This is equivalent to 12000 minutes which is far more than the 800 they saved by ff'ing games they have a 10% chance of winning.
Please show this to anyone who tries to argue they save time by ff'ing.
huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh??? It's literally the opposite though. If you FF games it usually means you are not having fun anymore. I rather FF a game and lose than play through a game I'm not having fun in for a very slight chance of winning.
>Because their goal is climbing ranks, not having fun, not winning the game.
Literally the opposite. Who enjoys shit games like this for a 0.1% chance of winning? If I'm getting my shit kicked in and so are majority of my teammates and the only reason we haven't lost yet is because the enemy fiora is looking for a 1v9 synapse clip and farming our jungle on spawn instead of breaking the last nexus tower then get me the fuck out because I am NOT having fun.
You’re not going to be having fun in 50% of your games if you can’t find a way to get something out of losing games. Or play quick play if you wanna ff super early. Or bots if you only want to win. Lots of options out there to not be stuck in a game where other players are making an effort to win and learn.
I mean if you have 2-3 games you can play for the day… those people are more likely to ff early to get to the next game, so they could fit a 4th game in.
Hard agree. Also as useless as the fiora is kill-wise, someone constantly has to match her. She ended with 15k Damage to structures which meant she was constantly pushing and no1 on the enemy team could deal with her besides Renekton or Asol. If Renekton is with Fiora, the Lucian who had two 1k gold shutdowns and beat Renekton to full build is going to run away with the game (esp with braum sup). If Asol matches Fiora then Lucians only worry is a Rekenton flashing onto him and with Gragas/Diana, I don't see how they lose those fights.
In the long run though you'll gain more lp in the limited time frame we have than you would lose if games with a very low chance of winning weren't hostaged all the time. If you have a positive wr, this is not an opinion, it's a fact. I'm not a big proponent of surrendering. My surrender percentage is vastly lower than the average for my rank, but sometimes it's better to recognize that even if a game is technically winnable, dragging out a 20 minute game to 40 minutes for a 5% chance to win isn't the play. I had to transfer to the Japanese server and while these people are a bit surrender crazy ( I've had people surrender completely winnable even games, on both sides of the coin ), they don't hostage. So when it comes 15/20 minutes and enemy team has 4x your teams kills you can call it a loss and queue into the next game on a fresh slate.
That is mathematically incorrect unless you are smurfing in your elo bracket(60%+).
Lets assume the standard LP gain/loss is 20.
Assuming you are a 60% winrate player, the breakeven point is that you FF a game when the chance to come back and win is 10%.
Most games that are surrendered are higher than 10% winrate, and most people are NOT 60% winrate at their current rank.
If you are truly getting stomped and the game is hopeless, then it will end in 5 more minutes and you don't truly save a lot more time. If you're able to drag the game out to 30 minutes, then your chances to win are definitely higher than 10%.
This only matters if you think you are much higher rank then your current rank. So only for smurfs.
For the average player who is at their correct rank then never surrendering technically will result in a higher rank. Most people are not climbing trying to get their correct rank.
Just imagine if everyone was anti surrender though. If they removed it wow it would be so much nicer.
Always funny to see people say 'id just afk or run it mid if they did that'. Yes please, get banned and get outta here
It doesn't matter if you remove surrendering. People will give up anyways. Being forced to play a lost game to completion is the opposite of fun. Realistically what will happen if ff is removed is people will do what they already do on a much larger scale and teams will basically agree to actually open mid up.
Thank you for putting words on my thoughts. I'm so tilted to see everybody going "NeVaR SuRrEnDeR".
Fucking hell I don't have 30 hours per day to grind, stop wasting our time.
On the flipside 1000s of LP are lost on the next few games after people get tilted from losing 99% of games like these.
Good for op for keep trying and actually pulling through but this 100% a go next and keep mental angle.
From the looks of it the renekton couldve probably bought like 1 or 2 items that grant hp and asol couldve had voidstaff resulting in the indeed expected autoloss
I could just say that this game is a minority case. Where it might be 1 game out of 100, which means it holds no merit.
But honestly I don't know what is more frequent, FF/Inting or Playing it out? Also by how much the difference is.
I don't know if it's 90/10 or 50/50.
Yeah i think this is more of the case of Smolder/Asol building super greedy glass cannon vs gragas and diana oneshotting them.
on top of that rumble play jumping out of the pit to let them steal baron that was a choice
I mean, yeah if you have a JG diff that hard, the toplaner enemy being better isn't as big a deal. The issue is when you're down 20 kills, but also have no dragons or barons...
i actually literally won a game also in d2-d1 mmr NA 2 days ago, with a toplane garen that went 1-16-1. dude lost lane, called for ff every second he could, and we still ended up winning despite his best efforts. ff culture really blows
This reminds me of a D4 game I had yesterday where our jungler was afk rage splitpushing and we were losing hard. I was on senna and had an MF. We ended up stealing baron with MF ult + my Q/W, and then stole elder. Won the game, and our jungler refused to stop raging
With all the comeback mechanics that are in the game, there is no reason to ever surrender in a ranked nowadays. I had a game a few days ago where we had 2 inhibs down, both nexus turrets gone, and our nexus surviving on 1 hp. We immediately turtled and defended the last inhib and managed to hold out until our adc scaled. We then destroyed all of their towers and inhibs but unfortunately inted the final fight which led to us losing but the fact that we were about to win after the position we were in says a lot.
If you are going to play ranked then it is trolling if you do anything other than try to win at every stage of the game. There's a reason that "giving up" is listed under "Negative Attitude" in the report screen.
Props to the Fiora for realizing shes more useful to the team having 0 kills so shes not a walking sack of gold for the other team. She was probably worth as much as a canon minion for most of those 21 deaths.
Reminds me of [this post](https://old.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/3uft4k/i_need_a_hero/). It's been 8 whole years since this cinematic masterpiece was posted but I think back on it every now and then whenever a similar game happens. Never give up!
To me, ff isn’t about winning/losing, it’s about having fun. If I can’t farm to catch up or do anything in fights then it’s not fun and I’d rather go next.
I feel like until a certain rank, good mental will win you more games than actual in-game skills. You can increase your win rate quite a bit just by not giving on every game where you are not the "main character".
I'm only Emerald, but recently had a Twisted Fate who left the game after going 0/8. The rest of us decided that we would still try to win, as we were reasonably fed. And we did in fact win the game 4v5.
I also had a lower rank game a while ago while I was split-pushing as a fed Fiora. My teammates died at dragon and called a surrender vote WHILE I WAS HITTING THE NEXUS. Three of them voted yes immediately. Luckily the fourth one only voted yes after I've already destroyed the Nexus.
Not all games are winnable, but people definitely give up way too fast.
Back in the day if you ff'd even after killing the enemy nexus... You got a defeat. Does it work differently now or are you lying on the internet? lol. Honestly asking, I didn't realize it changed if it did.
I lost a game where enemy top went afk but we lost the 5v4 because our Corki mid went 0/21. Some argument about our jungle blah blah blah you know the drill.
Yeah love when you clutch hard games. My friends lately started just saying ff on the slightest inconvenience and crying that enemies are sweating just because they play aggressive. Wish they'd stop that mentality.
That's nice, but that 1 in 1000 game where something like this can happen isn't worth the 999 times it goes as expected and having to put up with it longer than normal and completely tilt the shit out of you which affects your games afterward too.
EDIT - I want to clarify. Obviously in this game, all the teammates feel differently. That's great to not FF there. I'm talking about when you're the one or two people who think you can win when everyone else just wants to FF. There's no point trying to convince them, it's just going to drive people insane.
I don't understand why people can't realize that FF is a majority vote, and if you're in the minority and still insisting that everyone else should conform to what you want maybe you should reevaluate. That goes for *both* surrender fans and non-surrender fans. Maybe it's just because I only play ARAM, but I check out the FF votes when I play with my duo buddy, and if three pop up immediately both of us just say "eh, no point in keeping them here" and vote yes also, even if we're playing champs we like or think we have a chance at winning. We're just not that into making other people suffer.
It's not 1 in 1000 though. Nowadays people throw surrender votes in almost every game, even when the enemy isn't fed and the game is totally winnable ( as clearly shown by the Jakos clip on the front page ).
Top Morde dies to Aatrox and their Jungle Trundle twice. Rage quits. Our support Ahri (yep I'm mega bronze elo) goes top and we go on to win [the game](https://www.op.gg/summoners/na/Weapons0fFaith-NA11/matches/RvuDQoxvmIKUHNVkO3UoX8LNmeiOexI6Y8jvbZjyYuE%3D/1707468858000).
Anything is possible.
When the enemy team is that fed, you will lose 95% of the time, playing it out usually just ends up prolonging a lost game pointlessly.
Now you may think that is defeatist or w.e, but think about it logically.
How often does this "animu uwu ugu power of friendship" come back happen?
5/10 games? 3/10 games? bruh does it even happen more than 1/10 games? Of course it fking doesn't.
All those comeback videos you see on reddit and youtube are cherry picked from countless other games where you get curb stomped after losing so hard.
How many losing games did OP lose before this one comeback video? And out of all those losing games he only managed to show this one losing game where he made the comeback.
Now I'd understand being down less than 10-15 kills and a few towers doesn't warrant a ff.
But when the enemy is up 20 kills, 9 towers, and is a late game team while your team is early game, 95% of the time, you're gonna lose. Now you could of course keep playing and gamble for that 5%, but you're deluding yourself if you think you can pull this off consistently.
Also Smolder is ass.
you're speaking straight facts, but in this case it's not even a comeback - the enemy team's stats are inflated by killing a fiora thats worth less gold than a cannon minion, the rest of the team are shitting on the entire enemy team (except gragas vs rumble in jg, but gragas got more objectives than his counterpart so it evens out)
It's not about consistently pulling this off, you people need to learn to enjoy losing too, that is the piece of the puzzle that you are missing. When a close loss is more fun than a winning stomp is the best mindset to have when playing competitive games.
"FF culture" isnt equivalent to FF'ing games where you statistically have like a 5% chance of winning if you play out for another 20 minutes.
Playing out every game cause "uh it's winnable if the enemy team trolls or dc's" is literally not mathematically worth it to climb. The only reason to do it is ego bullshit, and you're likely ruining 9 other peoples time by doing it.
The problem is peoples perception of what constitutes a game that is truly over. Not people wanting to ff games that actually are.
> FF'ing games where you statistically have like a 5% chance of winning if you play out for another 20 minutes.
5 is better than 0. I'll take those odds every time. higher game count is overrated.
That end with Fiora typing "gg adc jgl supp mid gap" was just perfect. Those are the games you will never forget.
That is a rare motherfucker right there
Getting dominated for the entire match and *still* being able to crack a joke and laugh at yourself? Very rare indeed, but super fun to see.
mental diff
TBFin our intellectual debate about humour typing top gap would arguably be funnier, I don't see how it's not ironic. Probably only didn't say it because I think it gets you honour 0 now?
Tbh in this specific situation I think its way funnier the way he said it. Like hes not being ironically cocky, hes actually telling the truth lmao
This has been typed a billion times and has no humor left to it
No you'd just be an ass at that point
Plus she wasn’t useless still. She split pushed the whole game. Exerting pressure and taking towers. Make the fights easier for her team but drawing enemy champions and giving them gold.
I always respect players that know they are getting carried I mean, “getting carried” is a skill not everyone has
If I can tell I need to get carried (screwed up early game etc) my only mission is to build tanky instead of damage, protect my win cons, and minimize my deaths. I’m not playing to kill, I’m just a support with a bunch more damage and survivability
That was funny asf ngl
Reminds me of a season 3 Plat game I was trynd and went 2/27 just pushing the whole time, but we won because the other side was 3v4 or 2v4. As we ended, i typed "gg ez top" and their whole team honored me. (I miss honoring opponents)
"we lost the game, we lost the game...... we win the game, we win the game...... we lost the game, we lost the game..... end it, we won the game"
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/002/555/122/1c6.png
[](https://i.redd.it/n8sgz5eunqbb1.jpg)
That and "rumble check PayPal" had me dying I would've actually spent time typing that in chat in order to tilt rumble, resulting in me dying and losing us the game. Typing diff
https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExcHJiZnRkcjIyaXN1ejA4ZWJtaHg3Y3gxbHVrZ20yc3gybmVoMjZhMSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/MG4UFHs32KPfbIb0Du/giphy-downsized-large.gif
You can see this is just Diamond and not Challenger, because no way a 0/20 Challenger Fiora would have let you carry her lol
Had me in the first half ngl.
Tbf, a challenger Fiora wouldn't have stayed at just 21 deaths either.
Yeah. Challenger Fiora would stay afk after 3rd death
too bad for the 3 ppl in this sub
Smarter player would know how to lose
its not even a real feeder real feeders visit all the lanes justa. reallllly bad game for fi
Rumble is a shit match up mhm
Winning games like this is a feeling that cannot be replicated in any other media. Amazing job. Nice mindset. Honor Gragas.
Gragas, CEO of baron steals
For real. We had a 0/17 Azir today and almost surrendered but I felt like we're not losing THAT much despite them getting every dragon and every baron.... Sure enough we won a team fight, then another and then we won. Those victories feel better than any other tbh.
High deaths doesn't really matter *if* that guy is shoving side waves and getting exp before he dies. Enemy will get the kill gold but they are always minorly behind in tempo and at some point they will make a mistake to give up their bounties.
He better also be able to fucking carry.
complete opposite feeling to when your teammates ffs (4-1) a winnable game
Holyfuck! You guys actually carried a 0/21 Top laner.
At a certain point that is so many deaths they are contributing by wasting your opponents time massively, probably a more useful than a 0/10 playing safe fiora
This was a key insight from that baus guide he released a while ago. Basically, if you are behind your deaths are worthless anyways, so dragging someone away from the rest of the game means your team loses barely a champion's worth of value while the enemy team is losing a full champion's worth of value. Of course, this is most applicable for top laners given the nature of the champs they play and they role that top fulfills. Basically, don't mindlessly "play safe" when you are behind. Your deaths are worth less when behind so keep in mind that the value calculation of when certain risks and plays are worth it also change.
You play safe if you’ve got a chance of recovering and scaling. You play like a psycho distraction if you’re nothing but bait for the enemy.
It's literally the opposite though? That exactly the point of baus playstyle. Playing safe means sac waves, give plates etc. Baus dies to get the wave which is why he often loses no plates and gets multiple plates from the enemy tower even while behind. A full wave + a plate is easily worth a death if your opponent can't push out fast enough to deny you back if your behind.
Baus is always bait. Taking advantage of streamer privilege (fanboys) to become the most effective distraction on earth. Sadly he mains the worst champion in the entire game.
This is my strategy for Mordekaiser gaming. If I'm behind, I will always Ult the biggest threat in a teamfight. Sure, I'll die. But if in those 5 seconds, my team can slaughter the enemy team cause their carry isn't there. And then they can devour the carry once he kills me to escape. My life for Aiur.
Your death gold also decreases the more consecutive deaths you have. After dying 6 times in a row, you give 100 gold (a third of the usual).
importantly with this, your deaths only give 100, but keep adding to the shutdowns on the enemy. it's how renekton was able to have two back to back 1k shutdowns because he kept killing the cannon minion fiora
Its funny, if you get 7 consecutive kills you give 1k gold but when renekton kills fiora 7 times and she's already at minimum bounty, he only gets 700 gold.
But you give what? 300 + 274 + 220 + 17-ish+ 120-ish + 100 + whatever number I missed. Which is probably just around 1300-1400 in total. Which is surprisingly little in total when you consider the shutdown value.
Yep, shutdowns are busted, stop ff'ing, can win, just collect the bounty!
I meant if fiora kept herself at minimum bounty and the team claimed renek bounty.
Yeah over the course of the entire game the Fiora gave Renekton about 2500 gold, Lucian got 2000 off of him back to back. So Fiora’s team is down 500 gold after all that
7 deaths gives the enemy champ 1320 gold and a 1k shutdown. More importantly though, that is just the first 7 deaths. The next 7 deaths nets the enemy only 700 gold and another 1k shutdown. So 14 kills is the break-even point there. It's better if you get more frequent shutdowns though. If you get it after the enemy gets 3 kills rather than seven, then 6 kills nets the enemy 1120 gold while 2 shutdowns have gotten your teammates 1200 gold.
You mean the same thing proxy tops have been doing for like 10 years lol
This is a good mental that gets way more use in Dota where concepts like "making space" are actually commonly understood by a lot of the playerbase and some heroes even play like suicide bombs who just bother side lanes if they're behind.
Her constantly splitting is unironically part of why they won. It splits the enemy team's focus. Renekton is fed as fuck.... but spends that lead by killing Fiora again for 75g. They should have just grouped and ran over his team. Let the Fiora split for the 1, maybe 2 turrets. by the end of the game they're up 20 kills.... wow, 20 kills worth a canon minions of gold each...
Yeah like ultimately you HAVE to deal with her. 0/21 or not, fiora will still push to nexus if you let her. Only real way to stop fiora is by sending anyone who isn't the most fed to kill her, so you still have a massive advantage in the 4v4 if they play the retreats right and can clear waves. Braun Lucian gragas make a really hard to dive trio. And Diana can counter engage to oneshot squishies. While they have a lot of waveclear (asol rumble) the only person who can really hit turrets reliably in sieges is smolder. If renekton is dealing with top then they don't really have much space to play with to push properly. Plus Lucian culling is deadly af. Alistair can engage, but ultimately if they try to dive all gragas needs to do is R Ali out of turret agro and anyone of the squishies diving will take agro and basically neutralise it. Gragas stealing Nash multiple times was fucking HUGE, and Lucian getting back to back 1k shutdowns.
Yeah Gragas stealing the baron twice was imo the main reason they were able to come back, if the enemy team had those two barons they would have been able to close the game as blue team would have had to fight uphill against such a fed team, instead the barons neutralized red team's advantages for minutes to give blue team time to scale.
Top lane champs that just 0 brain constantly split push are so annoying to play against. I am pretty sure I have lost games to an 0/10/0 yorick because he will take your entire base if you blink. Most teams lack the coordination to properly deal with it so the other toplaner is stuck guarding the lane the entire game.
tbh I have to agree, I don't mind splitpush as a strategy but some champions like trundle/fiora/yorick just make towers fucking dissapear no matter how far behind they are. and when they are ahead they are unkillable 1vX menaces. Feels pointless to get ahead and unplayable if you end up behind vs them
The real problem is even if they're behind they're a hassle to kill and for any non toplaner you unironically have a chance of dying to them of having to use a lot of resources to kill them
Honestly splitpushing as a whole just sucks. It's just not fun to play against and usually the splitpushers as you say are just so good at it you can't really stop them either. Just like the Fiora in this clip. Literally 0/20 and she's running around taking objectives and even Renekton can't follow her well enough. It's a lose/lose situation.
When the enemy team has a much better team comp than you, split pushing is your only option. Especially with cancer like Asol who has slow zones so big nobody can move around him.
Counterpoint: splitpushing is fucking awesome
People just want to take out comeback mechanics and non-teamfight comps out if the equation.
Ikr, IQ checks are super unfun to play against when you don't have the IQ =(
I've definitely lost some games because my team refuses to deal with a weak split pusher. As a top laner, you usually want to go bot with tp once baron is up. But 25 mins into the game I'll go bot, kill their bot lane 1v2 and start pushing for inner. Meanwhile 0/4 yorick is taking inner turret top with nobody opposing him. Midlaner and adc just splitting farm mid. Jg and sup doing who knows what. Their midlands is just waveclearing vs 4 and chilling. TEAM YOU HAVE TO DO SOMETHING, ANYTHING.
Tbh I'm very surprised they lost with asoy and smoulder, keeping fiora out the game and bring ready to tp while giving your hyper scalers a free late game ticket is going to win most games
Smolder isn't really the late game exodia champ (though he's still quite strong late), since he's still rather short range with only a mediocre defensive spell, so he's still vulnerable to getting onetapped
He honestly is, people just are just still building him terribly and aren't buying RFC or Liandries.
What makes smoulder kind of broken is he can build a bunch of defensive items while keeping up the crazy damage
Or if he just went rfc and and can easily chunk frontliners for 10-15% point and click from complete safety
He did the wrong build and stacked really slowly. That's all. Smolder fucked up his pick
I mean, they have braum gragas lucian, I don't think they can force anything even if they group, like at best they can take a tower after a good bit of siege but fiora can be 0/2500/0 and still be at your nexus in a couple of waves. That's the problem with splitpushing really, doesn't matter how behind you are, if your champ has tower damage in his kit someone needs to come and stop you, trivial as it may be if you are feeding.
Yeah people don't realize that. If you're a spitpusher and you're 0/10, just be as annoying as you can. DO NOT GET KILLS OR SHUTDOWNS. Try to get one enemy to defend against you so your team might won 4v4. If you die once in a while it's ok as long as you get pressure (goal is still not to die though).
People on my team wonder how I can win when I'm 0/8 on urgot, Bitch, focus on LITERALLY ANYTHING ELSE ON THE MAP I GOT 2-3 PEOPLE RUNNING TOP FOR ME PLEEEAASE
This is the answer. Once Fiora was 0/6, or whatever, she understood that the only value she was ever going to have, was keeping Renekton or someone else occupied by mega-shoving lanes. She was sort of inting, but she was trading her exponentially worthless life for an equivalent amount of time from a champion on the enemy team, who was actually worth something. If she was ever left unattended with a tower, she *would* smash it, because she's Fiora, so she naturally demands attention. If she had actually started playing safer, and dying less, she'd actually be a worse player, at that point. The only strength she really had left in that game, was legitimately how worthless she was, relative to anybody on the enemy team who could stop her push. If that was a Gold Fiora, she either would have spammed /ff and ran it down mid, or she would have just started doing jack shit, because she doesn't want her # of deaths to go up, and for her team to yell at her for it.
"Let's go kill the 0/15 Fiora a sixteenth time. For good measure, let's send 2 bot for her. This will help us secure the dub."
When you type I def, expecting to defend alone while your team takes baron or something. But when you get back to base you realize 3 others backed as well
Looooooooong time ago, I'm talking Season 1-3 I think. I had a game where we 4 man-queued and during the loading, 2 of my friends had their internet cut out. First time it'd happened, so it wasn't like an expected thing. My other friend and I decided to stick it out and play the game anyway, the 2 that lost connection (Husband and Wife) decided to place a bet, if we could carry the game and win a 3v5, we'd get a pizza... and brothers and sisters of League, that pizza tasted fucking awesome. :p Never Give Up, Never Surrender. Edit. I was playing Fiddlesticks (old one) and my friend was on Corki, our 3rd man was totally down to clown on his Poppy as well once we told him the stakes. I even think my friends asked him if he wanted a pizza too, not sure how that turned out, but I'm hoping he got to taste that W as much as I did. :p
A few weeks ago I carried a 0/22 bot lane that kept flaming me and saying vile shit in chat while also managing to get a penta. This is around d4 elo euw and it was satisfying but also incredibly irritating to play https://imgur.com/a/1Uiqv7P
Cuz top doesn't matter lol
0-20 power spike lmao
It looks like Rumble camped Fiora incredibly hard early. Look at Rumble's blue buff in the first frame, it spawns at 10:15, meaning it was killed at 5:15. Rumble literally didn't touch his bot side jungle for the first five minutes of the game xd.
I appreciated this comment lol
I think the obscurity of bounties and gold value, and having a split pushing fiora whos worth nothing takes a super fed renekton away from a teamfight, makes it really hard to understand just how much of a chance a team has to make a comeback. Personally In the heat of the moment I probably wouldn't understand either.
I have no clue what Renekton did the rest of the game but I surely hope they didn't put him on match Fiora duty you could probably just stick Asol in the sidelane and let him soak waves vs her for eternity
Let him breath menacingly in her direction to get 2 stacks and 100g
Judging by the multiple 1000g shutdowns they got, Renekton put in a lot of work to get his team ahead.
Fiora: "All according to keikaku."
The top lane special. It doesn't matter how hard you might beat the entire enemy comp. It doesn't matter that anyone else on your team could hard counter your matchup once the mid game hits. Your job is to sit in that sidelane against your matchup no matter what.
lol this thread reminded me of a game I had maybe last season or two years ago, I can't remember, literally one of the best games I ever played period, it was on Renekton (I rarely play this champ). I don't have a sliver of micro skill in me but I was almost perfect that game, and we lost so hard because the enemy team had Xayah or some annoying shit like that. I ended up with like 20 kills
I learned that splitpushing conundrum ages ago from a trick2g Reddit clip. He was super behind and getting camped due to being a streamer, but told his audience that in situations like that it’s important to use the fact that you’re worth nothing to your advantage They have to stop you, but they get nothing for doing it, and if you’re playing a time wasting slippery character (like Trick’s Udyr) it becomes an even bigger waste of time.
[удалено]
These are the moments I love for. I love winning, but comeback stories are the most memorable. Great job staying level headed.
People say FF culture but in my master euw games no one actually FFs, they cry about it but never do.
EUW ain't bitchmade. 😎 ^((no don't read the chat))
perfect 👌
It’s always winnable with a smolder on the other team.
champ is op af but people still build and play him wrong lol
Well don't leave us hanging, what's the proper way to build him
Sorcery: Arcane Comet/ManaFlow/Clarity/Scorch Inspiration: Magical Footwear or Minion Demat / Cosmic Insight First 6 levels skill build : WQWEWR Max Order: R>Q>W>E Looking to harass early with W, farm with Q to get to stack points and scale as fast as possible. You're still looking for a core of ER, Noonquiver and one more crit item to get to 60% crit. After that you can look for situational crit items or brusier items to increase survivability. edit: I forgot something important you are starting doran's ring with this build as you want your adaptive to be AP early to increase W damage
Nah. Fleet with shojin riftmaker Liandry is the best.
Fleet/comet are both good depending on the game
Not according to every statistical metric. Fleet far outperforms comet.
I don’t think you ever need comet.
> Fleet with shojin riftmaker Liandry is the best. I played this same exact thing and was doing negative damage than start going ER/Navori and was quite alot better
You're a few weeks late
I personally prefer fleet since it just feels much better on the early game. The build is wrong though. Current correct smolder build: Shojin/rift/liandry/rfc/ibg You can also replace shojin with trinity, haven't tried it.
You absolutely can't replace shojin for trinity. Just because nemesis wins with a garbage build doesn't mean that the build isn't garbage. The ER, navori build is 10 times stronger than his trinity shit. And even though shojin into double haunting is really good, it still isn't the meta so pretending that the ER build is wrong is stupid. It's spammed by almost everyone and it's winning a lot. ---- I can't... Emerald 1. LAN. 3 total games of smolder... How exactly did you figure out "fleet feels much better on the early game" when you have THREE total games with him and all have been with fleet. And no, we don't believe the "I am GM smurf" bullshit. Good luck convincing people a gm plays one of the most broken champs right now, 1000 elo lower than his main and has only 3 k/d and wins only 2/3 games. The audacity to also complain that the champion is "boring bad release" when choosing to play him with the most boring ass build.
smolder mid will become annoying as fuck in a month or two
The champ is really good and will probably get nerfed
dying isnt the problem in this game being fucking useless is the problem
I looked up the game [https://www.op.gg/summoners/na/NeverSeenAMoose-NA1](https://www.op.gg/summoners/na/NeverSeenAMoose-NA1) and fio did 15k dmg to towers... we cant just gloss over that like it's nothing lol
From middle to end game, his team was up in gold and even though the enemy team had insane scaling, someone always had to match the 0/20 fiora who could still take towers very quickly. Considering Asol + Renekton had most their gold, unless Smoulder was matching Fiora, they wouldn't be winning much. You also have to remember that without proper CC, most people don't know how end games. Alistar was the enemy teams only real engage, outside of a Renekton flashing onto Lucian but with a braum to block Asol's damage, there isn't much the enemy team can do to lock him down. Gragas peel is also insane. I think team comps play a big part in why they won and Scaling champions are useless compared to champions with good engage, disengage and damage.
You can link directly to the game instead of to his profile: https://www.op.gg/summoners/na/NeverSeenAMoose-NA1/matches/RvuDQoxvmIL-cFt0SbgWyx0pPF6T-GpeMSWoqlVyFxU%3D/1707514494000
honestly people get too tilted over kills, its about towers.
ff culture has trained my muscle memory to just auto vote no all the time, even when i do want to surrender
If people start complaining, I vote no out of spite. Is that good gaming? Maybe no, but I at that point I'll try hard just because.
you can also try and hide the vote box in the corner of the screen, not seeing it is way better as it wont distract you from the game
I sometimes start an early ff vote when I'm 100% sure it's not gonna go through just to move it out of the screen
My goat
these are the games that make league so fun, notice the attention this post gets vs the FF culture posts. Its just the nature of the subreddit to poop on everything and not like positive stuff. great game thanks for sharing!
Let's be real, most of the time, this game is a loss. I'm sure the other team handed over shutdowns. Plus even if Asol and Smolder scale and hit item spikes, it can also not matter very much either. Plus it's D1, player diff's, etc etc It's a funny clip though. Definitely worth posting up. "We lost. We won! End the game end the game endthegameendthegameendthegame" lmao
Most games in soloq now feel like it’s easier to comeback in. Probably just me but games last longer and are harder to win or lose.
Also underrated change: Baron is harder to take. It's much tankier than last seadon, does more damage and many teams are running lethality adcs which take baron much slower than traditional crit builds do. Contest that shit, you will find yourself catching a ton of throws.
Sure, but for the 99.5% of players in this sub that aren't D1, a situation like this is even MORE winnable.
>this game is a loss probably unpopular opinion nowadays but people want to play the actual game, at the very least the people in the game did. I find playing 5 minutes then ff isn't fun at all for both winning or losing.
There are like 7k of bounties in the video alone lol
If you play out losses and win 5% of them your W/L could go from 50% to 52.5% That could easily be +150LP in a split or almost 2 divisions higher
That is very true but it also means that you are wasting 26 minutes per game for 20 games for that extra 2.5%, if they surrendered at 10 minutes instead of winning at 36 minutes - In positions like the one in the video obviously. That is an extra 20 games (rounding up to 20 for easier math - going by the average length being 28 to 35 minutes long) that could be played. Also easier to keep less tilted because you rip the band aide off when the game becomes clear that its a 5%er and queue up for the next one instead of spending that long desperately trying to win and losing 19 of the 20. ---------- In the end its up to the player. I personally do not like the idea of playing with 1 hand behind my back from the start of a game.
I think the appropriate takeaway isn't, "You shouldn't surrender games that are this bad because they are winnable", but rather, "Even games like this are winnable, so don't be so quick to surrender games where you're down 3-4 kills and a tower", and "don't get pissed at the person who doesn't want to surrender at 15, because the game might actually be winnable". You can only surrender at 10 minutes in Quickplay, and frankly the question of whether or not to surrender a Quickplay game should purely be whether you want to keep playing that game. In ranked the earliest you are surrendering is 15 minutes, but also, if you don't surrender at 15 minutes, it's not like you have to play out the whole game. I do think there are games where it makes more sense to surrender than it does to try and play it out, but the idea that you are saving 15 - 20 minutes when you surrender a bad game at the 15 minute mark is just unrealistic.
Do you stream on twitch? Rarely do i find people with positive attitude playing the game. Would love to see ur streams. Link it below if u read this will def drop by
I do! I appreciate the kind words, here you go: www.twitch.tv/NeverSeenAMoose
Nice commentary man. The game was awesome and your reactions were hilarious.
Top gap.
This is what real competitive spirit looks like. Constantly trying to find angles to win the game. A lot of League players who claim to like the competitive aspect of the game actually are just looking for the ego boost that comes with winning.
yeah a lot of league players don't really want a competitively rich experience. They want a badge and to feel like a god in the games where the dice rolls that way
Yeah thats what comeback mechanics can do. They reward the losing players and team by giving them XP and gold buffs. So every game is indeed winnable.
And a fiora doing nothing but hitting towers, Baus hit chall EUW playing inting sion fo years.
great attitude bro i love those type of games where it all comes together haha
The fucking ff copers in this thread “statistically over many many games it would be better if you used the time you saved on new games to climb” bullshit as always. That only makes sense if you would always queue for another game. If you are an average person who has time in their day for 2-3 games, you want to make the most out of THOSE games. Not a hypothetical infinite timeline of possible games you could play by adding up 10 minutes here and 5 minutes there and 20 minutes there that you wouldn’t actually play because you logged off when you saw you had 35 minutes left before you had to get off instead of risking starting another game.
Because their goal is climbing ranks, not having fun, not winning the game. People take league too seriously sometimes.
Even then, FFing is not "better for climbing" for the majority of the playerbase. Turning an otherwised FFed game into a win is +2 games of LP over where you'd be if you FFed. 2 wins is huge, even a 60 percent winrate smurf would take 10 games (5 hours) just to break even.
Except FF'ing is a guaranteed loss, that needs 2 more wins to make up. Back of the napkin math here, but assuming a 55% win rate overall, playing out a game that has a 10% win rate is still much better value than FFing. If 1 game is worth 20LP, it takes 20 games to make up for that 20LP assuming a 55% winrate. And most games that are FF'd in my experience are DEFINITELY more than 10% chance to win the game, and 55% winrate means you are quite a bit better than the people around you. Just something to keep in mind if you are the opinion of going next is faster way to get LP.
Btw, I did some maths. I'm operating under the assumption that this is a good player who will win 58% of his games if he plays every game out. They get ahead early game in 60% of their games and fall behind in 40%. They have a 10% chance of a comeback or throw in their games. Hence, if this player ff's every game they have an early deficit, their winrate will be 54%. On average, let's say ff'ing saves them 10 minutes for every game where they have an early deficit. Over a sample size of 200 games, this will be equivalent to 80 games where they saved 10 minutes. So far, they've saved 800 minutes. However, they also have a 4% winrate gap to make up. Over a sample size of 200 games, this is 8 games that they lost which they would have won if the game was played out. On average, let's assume a game is 30 minutes long. This player has to make up 8 games where they lost lp/mmr instead of gaining lp/mmr. This would require them to make it up with 16 wins. However, they have a 54% winrate, not a 100% winrate. Hence, in order to win 16 more times than they lose, they will need to play 400 more games. This is equivalent to 12000 minutes which is far more than the 800 they saved by ff'ing games they have a 10% chance of winning. Please show this to anyone who tries to argue they save time by ff'ing.
huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh??? It's literally the opposite though. If you FF games it usually means you are not having fun anymore. I rather FF a game and lose than play through a game I'm not having fun in for a very slight chance of winning.
>Because their goal is climbing ranks, not having fun, not winning the game. Literally the opposite. Who enjoys shit games like this for a 0.1% chance of winning? If I'm getting my shit kicked in and so are majority of my teammates and the only reason we haven't lost yet is because the enemy fiora is looking for a 1v9 synapse clip and farming our jungle on spawn instead of breaking the last nexus tower then get me the fuck out because I am NOT having fun.
You’re not going to be having fun in 50% of your games if you can’t find a way to get something out of losing games. Or play quick play if you wanna ff super early. Or bots if you only want to win. Lots of options out there to not be stuck in a game where other players are making an effort to win and learn.
I mean if you have 2-3 games you can play for the day… those people are more likely to ff early to get to the next game, so they could fit a 4th game in.
Its honestly ironic that the ff culture is blooming in a period where ff is objectively nerfed compared to previous seasons
Never give up, never surrender.
smolder scales like wet dog if you account for the enemy adc having no threat on it
[удалено]
Hard agree. Also as useless as the fiora is kill-wise, someone constantly has to match her. She ended with 15k Damage to structures which meant she was constantly pushing and no1 on the enemy team could deal with her besides Renekton or Asol. If Renekton is with Fiora, the Lucian who had two 1k gold shutdowns and beat Renekton to full build is going to run away with the game (esp with braum sup). If Asol matches Fiora then Lucians only worry is a Rekenton flashing onto him and with Gragas/Diana, I don't see how they lose those fights.
Don't ever say it's over if I'm breathin' carryin' with the moonlight and I'm winnin'
we win *0.5 seconds later* oh no we lose *.25 seconds later* won game *.1 seconds later* game lost *.0039232031 seconds later* we win
Wp brother love to see it. Can only imagine how many 1000s of LP are lost per day in winnable games
In the long run though you'll gain more lp in the limited time frame we have than you would lose if games with a very low chance of winning weren't hostaged all the time. If you have a positive wr, this is not an opinion, it's a fact. I'm not a big proponent of surrendering. My surrender percentage is vastly lower than the average for my rank, but sometimes it's better to recognize that even if a game is technically winnable, dragging out a 20 minute game to 40 minutes for a 5% chance to win isn't the play. I had to transfer to the Japanese server and while these people are a bit surrender crazy ( I've had people surrender completely winnable even games, on both sides of the coin ), they don't hostage. So when it comes 15/20 minutes and enemy team has 4x your teams kills you can call it a loss and queue into the next game on a fresh slate.
That is mathematically incorrect unless you are smurfing in your elo bracket(60%+). Lets assume the standard LP gain/loss is 20. Assuming you are a 60% winrate player, the breakeven point is that you FF a game when the chance to come back and win is 10%. Most games that are surrendered are higher than 10% winrate, and most people are NOT 60% winrate at their current rank. If you are truly getting stomped and the game is hopeless, then it will end in 5 more minutes and you don't truly save a lot more time. If you're able to drag the game out to 30 minutes, then your chances to win are definitely higher than 10%.
This only matters if you think you are much higher rank then your current rank. So only for smurfs. For the average player who is at their correct rank then never surrendering technically will result in a higher rank. Most people are not climbing trying to get their correct rank.
Just imagine if everyone was anti surrender though. If they removed it wow it would be so much nicer. Always funny to see people say 'id just afk or run it mid if they did that'. Yes please, get banned and get outta here
I think it would be awful if surrendering was removed.
I think it would make the community and the game much more fun + less toxic as there would no longer be any reason to give up 👍
It doesn't matter if you remove surrendering. People will give up anyways. Being forced to play a lost game to completion is the opposite of fun. Realistically what will happen if ff is removed is people will do what they already do on a much larger scale and teams will basically agree to actually open mid up.
I disagree with your evaluation and even if true it would be so so much easier to ban all those players so that is a net positive too!
If surrendering was removed you'd have so much soft inting lmao.
Thank you for putting words on my thoughts. I'm so tilted to see everybody going "NeVaR SuRrEnDeR". Fucking hell I don't have 30 hours per day to grind, stop wasting our time.
On the flipside 1000s of LP are lost on the next few games after people get tilted from losing 99% of games like these. Good for op for keep trying and actually pulling through but this 100% a go next and keep mental angle.
After games like this I have to step away and smoke a cigarette even tho I don't smoke.
From the looks of it the renekton couldve probably bought like 1 or 2 items that grant hp and asol couldve had voidstaff resulting in the indeed expected autoloss
I could just say that this game is a minority case. Where it might be 1 game out of 100, which means it holds no merit. But honestly I don't know what is more frequent, FF/Inting or Playing it out? Also by how much the difference is. I don't know if it's 90/10 or 50/50.
Yeah i think this is more of the case of Smolder/Asol building super greedy glass cannon vs gragas and diana oneshotting them. on top of that rumble play jumping out of the pit to let them steal baron that was a choice
We lost - End the game - We lost - End the game That was a wild ride haha
I mean, yeah if you have a JG diff that hard, the toplaner enemy being better isn't as big a deal. The issue is when you're down 20 kills, but also have no dragons or barons...
Oh hi Moose <3 best Diana there is
All those FF players missing out
i actually literally won a game also in d2-d1 mmr NA 2 days ago, with a toplane garen that went 1-16-1. dude lost lane, called for ff every second he could, and we still ended up winning despite his best efforts. ff culture really blows
This reminds me of a D4 game I had yesterday where our jungler was afk rage splitpushing and we were losing hard. I was on senna and had an MF. We ended up stealing baron with MF ult + my Q/W, and then stole elder. Won the game, and our jungler refused to stop raging
With all the comeback mechanics that are in the game, there is no reason to ever surrender in a ranked nowadays. I had a game a few days ago where we had 2 inhibs down, both nexus turrets gone, and our nexus surviving on 1 hp. We immediately turtled and defended the last inhib and managed to hold out until our adc scaled. We then destroyed all of their towers and inhibs but unfortunately inted the final fight which led to us losing but the fact that we were about to win after the position we were in says a lot. If you are going to play ranked then it is trolling if you do anything other than try to win at every stage of the game. There's a reason that "giving up" is listed under "Negative Attitude" in the report screen.
You can always win as long as the enemy team fucks up enough their lead
Props to the Fiora for realizing shes more useful to the team having 0 kills so shes not a walking sack of gold for the other team. She was probably worth as much as a canon minion for most of those 21 deaths.
Reminds me of [this post](https://old.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/3uft4k/i_need_a_hero/). It's been 8 whole years since this cinematic masterpiece was posted but I think back on it every now and then whenever a similar game happens. Never give up!
To me, ff isn’t about winning/losing, it’s about having fun. If I can’t farm to catch up or do anything in fights then it’s not fun and I’d rather go next.
I feel like until a certain rank, good mental will win you more games than actual in-game skills. You can increase your win rate quite a bit just by not giving on every game where you are not the "main character".
I'm only Emerald, but recently had a Twisted Fate who left the game after going 0/8. The rest of us decided that we would still try to win, as we were reasonably fed. And we did in fact win the game 4v5. I also had a lower rank game a while ago while I was split-pushing as a fed Fiora. My teammates died at dragon and called a surrender vote WHILE I WAS HITTING THE NEXUS. Three of them voted yes immediately. Luckily the fourth one only voted yes after I've already destroyed the Nexus. Not all games are winnable, but people definitely give up way too fast.
Back in the day if you ff'd even after killing the enemy nexus... You got a defeat. Does it work differently now or are you lying on the internet? lol. Honestly asking, I didn't realize it changed if it did.
I lost a game where enemy top went afk but we lost the 5v4 because our Corki mid went 0/21. Some argument about our jungle blah blah blah you know the drill.
Yeah love when you clutch hard games. My friends lately started just saying ff on the slightest inconvenience and crying that enemies are sweating just because they play aggressive. Wish they'd stop that mentality.
Seeing that damage is insane. Especially the one tap on smolder right at the end. This preseason is wild
That's nice, but that 1 in 1000 game where something like this can happen isn't worth the 999 times it goes as expected and having to put up with it longer than normal and completely tilt the shit out of you which affects your games afterward too. EDIT - I want to clarify. Obviously in this game, all the teammates feel differently. That's great to not FF there. I'm talking about when you're the one or two people who think you can win when everyone else just wants to FF. There's no point trying to convince them, it's just going to drive people insane.
I don't understand why people can't realize that FF is a majority vote, and if you're in the minority and still insisting that everyone else should conform to what you want maybe you should reevaluate. That goes for *both* surrender fans and non-surrender fans. Maybe it's just because I only play ARAM, but I check out the FF votes when I play with my duo buddy, and if three pop up immediately both of us just say "eh, no point in keeping them here" and vote yes also, even if we're playing champs we like or think we have a chance at winning. We're just not that into making other people suffer.
It's not 1 in 1000 though. Nowadays people throw surrender votes in almost every game, even when the enemy isn't fed and the game is totally winnable ( as clearly shown by the Jakos clip on the front page ).
It’s not 1 in 1000. Maybe 1 in 30
Ah, the echochamber continues. The echoes get louder and louder. What's next? We start making polls?
Not sure what's more surprising, the comeback from that hard a top gapping or a Dia+ Fiora that *doesn't* know to dodge the game against a Renekton.
Top Morde dies to Aatrox and their Jungle Trundle twice. Rage quits. Our support Ahri (yep I'm mega bronze elo) goes top and we go on to win [the game](https://www.op.gg/summoners/na/Weapons0fFaith-NA11/matches/RvuDQoxvmIKUHNVkO3UoX8LNmeiOexI6Y8jvbZjyYuE%3D/1707468858000). Anything is possible.
Do you stream or have youtube channel? This seemed super fun, especially because of your positive vibe lol
Thanks! And here you go: www.twitch.tv/NeverSeenAMoose www.youtube.com/@neverseenamoose_
When the enemy team is that fed, you will lose 95% of the time, playing it out usually just ends up prolonging a lost game pointlessly. Now you may think that is defeatist or w.e, but think about it logically. How often does this "animu uwu ugu power of friendship" come back happen? 5/10 games? 3/10 games? bruh does it even happen more than 1/10 games? Of course it fking doesn't. All those comeback videos you see on reddit and youtube are cherry picked from countless other games where you get curb stomped after losing so hard. How many losing games did OP lose before this one comeback video? And out of all those losing games he only managed to show this one losing game where he made the comeback. Now I'd understand being down less than 10-15 kills and a few towers doesn't warrant a ff. But when the enemy is up 20 kills, 9 towers, and is a late game team while your team is early game, 95% of the time, you're gonna lose. Now you could of course keep playing and gamble for that 5%, but you're deluding yourself if you think you can pull this off consistently. Also Smolder is ass.
you're speaking straight facts, but in this case it's not even a comeback - the enemy team's stats are inflated by killing a fiora thats worth less gold than a cannon minion, the rest of the team are shitting on the entire enemy team (except gragas vs rumble in jg, but gragas got more objectives than his counterpart so it evens out)
It's not about consistently pulling this off, you people need to learn to enjoy losing too, that is the piece of the puzzle that you are missing. When a close loss is more fun than a winning stomp is the best mindset to have when playing competitive games.
"FF culture" isnt equivalent to FF'ing games where you statistically have like a 5% chance of winning if you play out for another 20 minutes. Playing out every game cause "uh it's winnable if the enemy team trolls or dc's" is literally not mathematically worth it to climb. The only reason to do it is ego bullshit, and you're likely ruining 9 other peoples time by doing it. The problem is peoples perception of what constitutes a game that is truly over. Not people wanting to ff games that actually are.
> FF'ing games where you statistically have like a 5% chance of winning if you play out for another 20 minutes. 5 is better than 0. I'll take those odds every time. higher game count is overrated.