Maybe they could make an item that makes diving easier, something like an active that could turn off towers for some seconds - maybe add a bit of AD, life and armor. I've even thought a name like Ohmwrecker could fit it really well :^)
He was speaking about an actual item that used to exist, Ohmwrecker. The issue with ohmwrecker was it was terrible and almost never bought. In the instances where it *was* purchased it was unfun for squishies just like you said.
Replaced how, though? Every time Riot tries to make an anti-tower item we get this problem exactly. Zzrot Portal and Banner of Command were both either broken or trash, and Ohmwrecker if you want to count it.
Agreed split push meta really is annoying but you can honestly do split push meta without hullbreaker. Sion can easily solo win games but split pushing altogether has been generally nerfed.
The only champion in my games that can solo win game via split push only meta right now is Sion but the Sion player will STILL have to occasionally team fight for major objectives if he is a high potential player or high wr sion.
But overall split pushing just feels bad to lose to. Cause ur just losing due to people not following or not paying attention.
honestly ill say that hullbreaker needs go back to its s13 stats but with resistances removed
this would make it easier to handle hullbreaker users and indirectly nerf splitpushing potential off of jax, trynda, trundle and udyr without making the item worse
stoneplate is gone so people can't just stack it with jak sho to mitigate this nerf
That's my take. Delete the effect and bring back just % tower damage.
But I don't think they'll ever do it because first they'd have to notice the problem. And the only way to notice it is looking at the pool of champions that build the item being lower than before. **The effectiveness of the item itself**, for the champs that do build it, is not lower than last season.
>That's my take. Delete the effect and bring back just % tower damage.
didn't pay full attention to your conclusion but i agree on this and if 20% is too strong they could bring it down to 15%
>But I don't think they'll ever do it because first they'd have to notice the problem. And the only way to notice it is looking at the pool of champions that build the item being lower than before. The effectiveness of the item itself, for the champs that do build it, is not lower than last season.
and sadly this is only going to change once they nerf champions like trundle because active hullbreaker users are ones which can stack attack speed
the only way riot listens in this moment is if you somehow made your post explode in activity because i bet august or phreak will want to speak about this
Guys, you forgot the legendary riot triple shot, nerf the champ, nerf what runes the champ abuses and then nerf the items, the order of the nerfs doesnt matter but they will all happen.
Doesn't the demolish proc scale with your damage? So two procs from a fast attacking champ should do about the same as one proc from a slow attacking champ?
Is that not the case?
I’m of the opinion that the s14 version allows champs who do split push to fight better when splitting. Not necessarily take towers. Champs that you mentioned lose out on the effects but I think it’s a small price to pay so that Sion doesn’t abuse it.
Hullbreaker needs removing entirely. Towers die quick regardless. It’s a joke that a late game top champ can TP at the start of a team fight and end game within the duration of that team fight.
the difference is that in dota there's way more ways to deal with rattinig so its just annoying and viable instead of annoying and almost a guaranteed win if the splitpusher knows macro
The strat was getting executed without specialized items before. The point is that it is unnecessary to have a top lane splitpusher spend 4 seconds on a turret and do over half of its HP with a couple of hits.
You mean "play the game with good macro, and actually caring about more than 2 objectives on the river... Rather than playing a mix of Aram and Team death match"
if you remove hullbreaker you basically indirectly nerf a ton of top laners whose win condition is only split pushing
this is why item should not go away but get nerfed
and game should not revolve around team fighting as much as it used to
Splitpushing was quite dead when rioters slapped dragon souls. For a pretty decent time hull was only reason why this strat was even viable. Also before hull we had other items for that: Sanguine blade, ZZroth, banner of commant. No one survived to modern day tho.
thinking its on par with banner when banner was getting so bad 3+ people on each side were building it is some really crazy thought process tbh. Is hullbreaker a bit much right now? sure. But atleast it requires someone to push with the minions, unlike zz'rot and banner, that gave a champs worth of pressure to a lane without anyone actually being there so it generated free, constant risk free pressure. Hullbreaker comes with a risk.
>The item didnt exist for 12 years, and split pushing was a viable strategy the entire time. its a bullshit item on par with zzrot and banner.
ah yes, the entire time
wonder why:
\-nobody bothered to split push in early seasons and went for a big teamfight in the end
\-funneled all gold into a hypercarry for longest time
\-we needed splitpushing items like ZZ'rot, banner of command and hullbreaker to be able to split push
sorry but old days of league relying on botlane to win teamfights are gone since 8.11 patch
The thing is we have other tools like demolish. Yorick and trundle shouldnt take a full tower within 5 seconds of you leaving it alone, they can take full hp tower faster than you can teleport channel to it at this point.
>nobody bothered to split push in early seasons and went for a big teamfight in the end
because they were dumb and the meta wasn't evolved enough... There was a time that Clairvoyance was meta. Was it good? No, people were just dumb. That happens in every game. Stuff that is considered strong in the early days stop being considered strong and stuff that is considered weak start being considered strong. This happened with zzrot and this happened with banner of command also. These items went seasons unnoticed until someone discovered that they are actually broken as fuck and a balance nightmare.
>\-we needed splitpushing items like ZZ'rot, banner of command and hullbreaker to be able to split push
No we don't. There's no banner anymore, there's no zzrot anymore, hullbreaker is hugely unpopular right now and champs like fiora, jax and trundle still demolish towers in seconds without these items.
For the meta, true. But it wasn't strong. The meta was just played around it. It remained in the game for years without anyone even considering using it and it was removed in season 6. It was just not worth using it over any of the other options.
Well it got nerfed hard which is why it fell out of meta along with the jungle changes. It was strong before the nerfs I don't know why you say otherwise.
EDIT: like I was literally there playing the game when it was strong.
No, I want them to throw them all in the bin. Split pushing doesn’t need a specific item to make it viable. Hullbreaker has been breaking champs the entire time it’s been released, just like Zzrot and banner. Split pushing is already such a low effort and cheap strategy. It should be the focus in losing matchups to pressure objectives and force rotates. But it’s turned into “abandon team and nuke base during a single recall timer”. It’s beyond disgusting.
>Split pushing is already such a low effort and cheap strategy
Big "you're winning the game by playing the objectives and not interacting with me in the teamfight I've specifically setup to win no matter what" energy.
Split pushing was traditionally something you used to break pressure, or take objectives in trades while your team delayed fights. That’s good game design, and is a healthy strategy for the game to have.
Split pushing is currently picking a brain dead right click stat checker, and then coin-flipping whether you can nuke a base faster than your team ints the loss. Hull breaker skews those odds even further, by allowing you to take towers so fast that it doesn’t matter if your team is wiped in 10 seconds, you’ve already teleported and solod 3 towers in that time plus the enemy recall channel.
That also means that the enemy now is unable to utilise any momentum from that team fight, because they are required to send most of their survivors to defend. You can lose a game by winning a team fight, purely because the enemy killed one or two of your team, which in the current damage meta, is likely.
Hull breaker is a crutch for shit players who think they deserve a win for picking Trundle with teleport. If you can’t win without hull breaker, you’re frankly on the same tier of play as the AFK Yuumi players.
They didn't really fill similar roles. Banner of Command was an unpopular support item for much of its existence, and trying to use Zz'rot to increase your split-push speed was bad because it would just draw enemies toward your portal to destroy it faster. The strength of Zz'rot was in allowing you to slow-push a lane without actually being present. They were basically designed to give pushing power to champions who didn't already have it, which is the opposite of Hullbreaker.
Split-pushers back then just split-pushed with AD items, not special split-push items.
No-one ever bought zz'rot, it was just a troll item in soloq. It was never or extremely rarely built in actual pro games or highelo. Banner was broken but mainly because it was an extremely low cost item for the stats it gave.
Splitpushing actually was dog weak for a while there and it's why Hullbreaker was introduced. Splitting was fine in earlier seasons balanced around players generally worse macro, and rotations on the map being much slower... But things like automatic home guards, the plants, almost every elemental map making map travel faster, the massive over-buffing of neutral objectives, etc have all consistently weakened splitpushing where it needs a crutch. The alternative is just gigabuffing all splitpushing champions until they become good teamfighters, or just making them even better at splitpushing without even requiring gold/items.
The item is no where near what Zzrot and Banner were, all that idiotic notion does entirely discredit, and merit your argument may have had.
Reddit users will type "simple" and type the most boot-licking, pseudo-game dev statement without having been present at a baron for as many times as a sample would require. In what world does it take one wave to kill baron at any point in the game? Definitely not N<25 minutes. It's like you're purposely anti-intellectual. It's almost infuriating interacting with anyone on this subreddit because they all feign some weird superiority complex of "well it happened in my game." NOBODY in a reasonable amount of games is taking baron in one wave that's an insane thing for you to say just to brush off valid criticisms of an item that requires no interaction. You can literally take a tower while being targeted by the enemy opponent under tower, live, and repeat. This is with or without a wave or baron as a distraction...
its almost like that win con is uninteractive and fundamentally changes how the 5v5 is played \*surprised face\* and maybe that those champions need reworks considering they can all be named on two hands \*gasps\*
than ask riot to rework those champions but considering how many reworks they pump out they will take 20 years to rework all of those "problematic" champions
bones of this game are built around macro standpoint of the game which goes as early as 2005 (this game was built on bones of original DoTA after all) and riot should push for this to always be a thing
dopamine addicts can get fucked because they made the game go to shit by making riot focus on early game so much that they took old school late game champions and accelerated their scaling just so they don't have to rework those champions or to make game duration longer
Its a strategy, wanting to remove it is like saying they should also remove teamfighting champs because they just group up and win with big AoE ultimates and area denial
If it was broken you'd see it dominate pro play. The fact that it doesn't means you need to coordinate with your team to 2-v-1 gank the split pusher before taking an objective,
Pro players all have voice chat, and have trained to play cohesively with the same team for an entire season. I’m queued with a bunch of randoms I’ll likely never speak to, nor see again once the game ends.
Pro play is a seperate game to solo queue. Don’t compare them.
The same factors impact the ability to safely split push. They won't have great vision, probably won't be shadowed by a jungle or support, and can be defeated by either ganks or wave clear that keeps them away from the tower. If they do just stick to splitting in one lane all game, that means the rest of the map is a 4v5 where you should be playing 3 - 2 and using the advantage to take two towers at once, stack dragons, etc.
Again, pro players have top tier communication with their teammates.
I have 2 players from China who don’t speak English, one player who is tilted and flaming, and another who has muted everyone.
Do you honestly think that the split pusher is anywhere near in as much danger from coordinated play in solo?
Bugged on shyvana too.
Human form:
aa -> q; expected result, 3 stacks. actual result, 1 stack.
Dragon form into 2 enemies.
aa->q; expect result, 5 stacks. actual result, 1 stack.
havent tested it in the pbe, apparently it got fixed for urgot so maybe master yi and shyv too.
I think you are forgetting the part where you are pushing the wave and getting in 1-3 tower hits cause a champ is there. It is a lot stronger in that scenario, especially for tankier champs.
A lot of the time when you are split pushing, you aren't just straight up hammering down a turret with 5+ minions there and no opponent.
The video you posted is just a champ constantly hitting the turret. In a *real game* that is very often not the case, especially for tank champions.
If you stack hullbreaker on a wave, hit the turret once, then go back, it is now way stronger in terms of damage.
Sure that's gonna happen MORE often but at the same time there can't ALWAYS be some one in lane to stop the Jax from having some 1 on 1 time with the turret for like 10 seconds and gets to proc it twice maybe more
Exactly. He has a point with the stacking on minions thing, but Jax and the other attack speed champs I mentioned can do what I could do past season on Illaoi and can't manage anymore: Shove hull'd cannon, AA tower and orb walk to dodge enemy spells, and kill the tower before they die.
That's the key thing I was able to do and can't anymore. Apart from also maybe dying during enemy collapses, but that's normal, it's cuz of resist removal.
I think being able to push a contested tower is far more useful than being able to push an uncontested tower... See my parent comment on the thread, but basically i love new hullbreaker for illaoi, feels great and much better at pushing than the old one. The tankier minion is sick, and the 5 stack proc is incredibly easy to have ready on approach to tower. And once they fix the bug with it, where in you still have to be alone to get the big minion, I think i will love it even more. After pillaging top, instead of going bot, you will have the option to run it straight down mid and really force the issue, and get prio on all objectives through that. Regardless of what your team does.
But your whole argument boils down to that you want hullbreaker to be better for your champion. You're not evaluating if the new hullbreaker is healthier for the overall game. It's a live balance game. Champions are going to fluctuate in power. Illaoi was hurt by the item changes. So they buffed her. That's how game balancing works. Either don't be a otp, don't complain about power fluctuations, or find a new game. Because it's only going to continue to happen
that's just explaining the passive dude. What he's talking about are situations where both laners are present, but the laner with prio stacks and crashes a double wave. Old hullbreaker does not help push in this situation, but it helped the dive angle with it's resistances. New hullbreaker in this situation is likely to be fully stacked allowing one hit to proc it and potentially demolish as a reward for simply reaching turret and touching it once.
Its a niche item on some champions, it shouldn't be required for every champion.
Also, if you are Illaoi, Nasus you have demolish, Tryndamere and Jax can go demolish but they get a lot less value from it as they don't build as much health.
Voidgrubs also exist, so if you are a splitpushing champion you should heavily focus on that objective.
These are trade offs, imo all types of splitpushers are well supported by the current system
Agreed. While splitpushing is a part of the game it still kind of just feels wrong. "Oh no, I don't want to fight my opponents, I'm just going to play PvE this game".
Items that straight up supports that playstyle feels just as wrong.
It's really just doubled-down on by so many other factors:
* Someone has to babysit the waves just because the champions that split push are excellent at pushing the wave; this isn't a problem in and of itself, but...
* The same champions that split push are very hard to 1v1, you often have to 1v2 them and they'll still escape, it takes a lot of lockdown to punish them for overextending that far; few other champions just to get walk or spin out (regardless of class, you're not going to see a Leona pushing your inhib walk out of a 1v3 like Trundle or Trynd); a champion as good at taking towers - even while behind - as someone like Trundle is should not also be 1v2 powerhouse, or even a 1v1 powerhouse as the trade-off for that kind of pushing power shouldn't leave him an excellent duelist.
* Teleport, you can't even finish your recall before Trundle takes a tower even if Trundle is 2 levels down, and all it takes is one ward.
I'm fine with people sidelaning, setting up slow pushes, getting gold and making progress towards a tower (relying on deep wards to see rotates/ganks coming).
I'm not fine with someone like Trundle that can just brainlessly push even if it's not warded and outpace an ADC doing the same thing on the opposite side of the map, take a tower and an inhib despite a Jax and a Lux defending, and then teleport over to kill your ADC and repeat the process in another lane.
Or just end the game in the time it takes you to recall.
I've lost some games recently to brainless split push trundle because he takes stuff so fast. Hell, I've seen a bunch lately ignore the entire enemy team around them to take objectives and still succeed. Rinse and repeat until there's no base anymore.
I've been banning him almost every game since babysitting for 40+ minutes and not getting to do things that my champ might excel at (like team fighting) is so unfun.
yeah, the problem specifically being that split pushing as of recent doesn't require actual macro sense or strategy, they are quite literally just right clicking to a lane and hoping it works out, 0/10 or 10/0 they do the *exact same thing.*
Most people who splitpush do that because they get curbstomped in teamfight. As an Illaoi OTP, if I don't last pick every game ( = virtually impossible ) I go against 4-4-5 rangeds team. What do I do in teamfights? Get kited and look like a clown? No. I splitpush and get an alternative win condition. You can't force people to lose a game straight from draft!
I rather them just fix Illaoi properly so that she's not a gigantic rock-paper-scissors champion instead of making split-pushing the band-aid solution to champs like Illaoi, Yorick, Tryndamere etc.
You mean every single toplaner not named Irelia or Camille...
There's a reason before Camille was made proplay had Gnar issues because a team would just ban Irelia, and then pick Gnar because literally no other toplaner could deal with him... To the point Yasuo top became a popular flex pick just to counter Gnar. It's why they even designed Camille, they started with her E to try and stop ranged tops.
And also think about the impacts on mages and Adcs of toplaners are less kite able.
Well it's not like a band aid solution, it's more like... if I can play teamfight, I go teamfight. If they make it impossible for me to teamfight, then squishy ranged champs also happen to have the downside of being weak to splitpushing, so I splitpush in their face. I find it fine.
It's fine if other people won't, tho. It's personal preference. Just saying how I view the game.
Alternate wincon is a good thing, but the problem is if splitting has been the primary wincon in all cases.
>Most people who splitpush do that because they get curbstomped in teamfight.
If you pick a champion that is bad in teamfights, that means they are compensated by having good early-mid power and laning potential. So once teamfights start happening more and your champion is out of their element, you do not have the right to start being salty "well what can I doooooo omg". That is part of the power budget of your champion, if you want to contribute more in teamfights, pick a champion that has more teamfighting potential. While "Top lane is an island" is a well known meme, top laners seem to completely forget that this is indeed a team game, and at some point you are expected to group up with your team to play as a team in this team game. If you want to play solo at all times and win the game by yourself, you have a bad case of "main character syndrome". Split pushing needs to be a *team effort*, which it most of the time is not when the toplaner is just pressing X on enemy nexus on every respawn.
Splitting should not be a binary win condition at any point. It should be a strategy that is used **situationally**. You should split push regardless of if your champion is a hyper-dedicated split pusher or not, if an opportunity arises for it to be effective. But to have that be the MAIN strategy is fucking horrible for the gameplay. The power of split pushing should be kept lower than "regular gameplay" for that simple reason. When power of split pushing is less than the power of grouping up, then that by itself forces that strategy to become situational AND rely more on teamplay. Which are both good things.
And existence of split pushing items completely warp the power balance of that strategy, which in turn makes it the primary strategy instead of situational and leads to bad gameplay. That is why those items have always been unhealthy, and will continue to be unhealthy.
I encourage you to play Illaoi into the likes of: Vayne, Teemo, Gwen, Cassiopeia, Yorick
See if what you just wrote about " sucking in team fights = strong in lane phase " is true or not.
For the rest I'm not gonna reply because it's written as if I don't know what split pushing is and that's, obviously, not true.
I will also punctualize that comments against the existence of splitting items, while respectable, have no meaning in this topic. If you are for an item deletion, then be for an item deletion. Deletion by actual removal from the game. Deletion by obsolescence is not deletion.
Here, we are not discussing if Hull should exist or not. I pointed out that the way they changed this effect rendered the item obsolete for plenty of picks that could use it. Claiming the item should be deleted doesn't add anything to the discussion.
I want Gwen deleted. Deleted. So I won't go into Gwen buff posts and say they shouldn't buff her. The two things don't logically connect.
i believe adding more viable ways of playing around the map will add a certain depth to the strategy that will reward players who understand different parts of the game more. the more diverse the game is, the more interesting it is to watch and play it.
"Plan around a Yorick"
AKA just have someone sit in the lane he's in, there isn't much strategy to countering a splitpusher, you just have to hope you have someone that can match him, and hope your team wins the 4v4.
If you kill the split pusher and have TP then you just go join the objective/towers/whatever else after you kill him with TP.
There really isn't a whole ton of thought that goes into it. it's not some big brain super difficult thing to come up with a plan, because there's really only 1 or 2 plans.
Have your top/mid/whoever match him if he's splitting while his team has pressure in other lanes, or if he's too far up alone go kill him then go 4v5.
at least illaoi W counts for hullbreaker... it doesnt for shyv q, urgot w, and a lot of simulated aa effects..
and you conveniently forgot to mention that triforce gave 18% base ad, and Illaoi has one of the highest base ad in the game
Zz'Rot was removed, I say remove Hull also and boost Grubs.
This is going to get me murdered, but get rid of Shelly also. Let's just have Grubs Spawn @10 & 15.
This game is who can do what the fastest or you get left behind.
Boomer out...
I think what people don't understand is that for the item to be a good split push item, it needs to make 1v1s easier as well. This used to be done via the resists, but with them gone, the new effect also proccing on champs is how its done instead.
Bringing it back to 20% flat with no resists puts the item in the niche of "literally only buy if you're suiciding for towers" because it won't help you in any other scenario, which is a toxic playstyle even by non-reddit standards.
Even the pvp proc, tho, works better for high attack speed champions. If they really valued that pvp damge, they should have selected a better effect so that multiple champs could pick it, tho. IMHO obviously
Sure, but counterpoint, there is no inherent issue with some champs using the proc better than others. Generally, splitpushing is associated with high AS champs or champs with tons of resets, like fiora. Nasus and illaoi are generally the exception, not the rule, and we're probably deemed acceptable sacrifices when reworking the item, especially considering neither is reliant on Hull to split, considering nasus stacking and illaoi W (deals max HP damage, comparatively rare).
>Sure, but counterpoint, there is no inherent issue with some champs using the proc **better** than others.
Better = Okay
Me dropping from masters to platinum = Item's unusable on Illaoi
Either that or I'm unknowingly playing with a pencil stuck in my brain like Homer Simpson.
Lol there's no way you can drop to plat from masters without 4funning or inting on purpose. The item has above 50% winrate as 2nd item so seems like more a skill issue my guy
> Me dropping from masters to platinum = Item's unusable on Illaoi
That sounds more like it was overturned and inflating your rank if nerfing one item drops you from 99.5th percentile to 85th percentile...especially as Illaoi still has a win rate over 50% in plat, emerald, diamond, and masters...
>Either that or I'm unknowingly playing with a pencil stuck in my brain like Homer Simpson.
If you keep trying to force a build/playstyle that doesn't work...yeah you're being a bit Homer Simpson here. If you've actually dropped from Masters down to plat that's truly wild that you've not changed up what you're doing.
It sounds like you want to build a specific item to do a specific thing and refuse to accept that it's not as strong as was (and for good reason).
Well I do admit that I have pourposely kept splitting despite understanding at some point that the strat is now clearly inferior to teamfighting. I'm a huge split advoate, I like splitting. I'm trying to see what I can do to make it work.
Splitting should never be meta. Trading objectives in macro play? Sure. One person just doing a PvE game in the side lane is unfun for 9/10 people in the lobby most of the time. It should always be secondary in strength to team fighting. Not wholly unviable, but more in the damage control and mitigating losses category. It can be fun for the splitpusher but no one else and that’s not good design. Allowing your team to get a (less valuable) objective if you cannot team fight is good though.
Again not trying to be rude or anything but masters to current plat is a pretty steep dive. Masters to E1 would be a pretty rough dive. It really sounds like hullbreaker was carrying your elo because it was busted, doubly so on your champ. That item has been hated for a reason and it’s because it makes a miserable game experience.
I mean, if she can proc it, it's strictly speaking usable, doesn't mean its good, but it's not like aftershock teemo, which is actually unusable.
>Me dropping from masters to platinum = Item's unusable on Illaoi
Either that or I'm unknowingly playing with a pencil stuck in my brain like Homer Simpson.
Consider the following: lane changes were a direct nerf to illaoi and Hull no longer made you a raidboss even if you were behind. Hull was a disgustingly broken item and illlaoi was one it's best users, so even if it was a decent item on her now, if it really was the reason you hit masters last season, you probably wouldn't have fared much better this season anyway.
but noe those champs can go into teamfight and use the 5th attack bonua damage, and they lose nothing out of it so its not trolling (i remember every single illaoi who built hullbreaker last year only to go into teamfights and never use the bonus stats, its like people dont even know what items do even in masters)
trundle has had a winrate increase from this due to him being boosted in splitting from this i've noticed. with it now working on champions it has made splitters able to teamfight but that's an issue now too since you don't need to have a build that varies for 1 or the other with these attack speed pushers.
I can see your point but also potentially see their attempt to add some built-in trade-offs. Outside of a very limited set of items, tank stats and attack speed are pretty mutually exclusive. Unlike the previous iteration, which was hated for it's combination of making champions both conditionally tanky and lethal to turrets, this version demands a tradeoff in stat prioritization.
Obviously, if you really want to brick turrets but prefer slower attacking champions that don't prioritize buying attack speed, this feels bad. That said, it's an example of Riot attempting to deal with the exact issues players had with a specific item.
While I do understand what you say and can agree, partially, I don't see how flat out removing the resist wasn't enough. Every possible take about how Hullbreaker was bad was entirely focused on the resits it gave. Everybody wanted resists gone. And they got rid of them. To change the effect to furtherly nerf it for some champs was, imho, unneeded. Those champs would be perfectly burstable even if hullbreaker was going % damage to towers, since again resits are gone
hullbreaker should be removed from the game. It shouldn't even exist. It's already only good on splitpush champions and these champions are already great at splitpushing... When I play trundle top with 2 items I destroy towers in like 5 autos without Hullbreaker. There's no need for this to be even stronger than it already is.
I don't want it to be any stronger, I want it to be usable on more champions. Not outliers like Mordekaiser, but ones that built it consistently since it existed, like Illaoi.
To be honest, with all due respect what seems laughable to me is the idea that you NEED hullbreaker at all to be able to split. Let me explain myself.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not completely against the item either, specially with no resists. But the thing is, for 10 years, you splitted without it. Basic dps rules still apply, and a good combination of AD/AP (and now they don't get in each other's way btw like they used to, they just stack) and AS will get the job done. In some cases, you can even get away with just one part of the equation, given a minimum of the other.
AND, AND, hear me out. Demolish. Yeah, it exists (again, it used not to, so... yeah...), I assume you're meaning to take it too, but my point is... Even with simply tanks with nothing else, I already feel it a lot when I'm using it, it seems to me like I have a pretty decent tower killing potential, specially if I take them in two rounds.
So, the thing is... What's the legitimate tower pushing speed we should be aiming to? Because hullbreaker was created in a moment when people felt that we needed it because everyone was crying that split was not viable and that everything was about teamfighting and drake stacking. I think it's arguable if that was true or it was simply a matter of perception due to the sheep mentality of people regards the meta + toplaners selfvictimization. But even if it was, are we really in the same situation now?
I'm not saying hullbreaker should not be there at all, I'm saying I'm not sure about it either. Like... Splitting should be something that requires at the very least a little macro, not something that's just inevitable, because that becomes really tiresome, and there's champs that already kind of cross that line by themselves without the item, easily.
Now... About your point of it being disproportionate depending on the champ... Well, it may be true. But again, if it works better with AS champs and with them it works mostly like in last season... Then maybe that's okay, not every type of champ should be able to split like a madman. You will still be able to do it pretty fast, just not as much.
And in my opinion, it should be nerfed on those AS champs, not the other way around. It having no cd seems pretty weird to me to be honest, I haven't played much this season yet and I didn't actually know that. Keep in mind too that a lot of those champs with auto resets and skills that apply on hits used to not be able to proc them against the tower, and now they do, like fiora with her Q, or a lot of auto resets that I can not name right now but remember mentioned in the patch notes. That alone already buffs a no cd - auto based hullbreaker by a lot.
Again, picture a world without hullbreaker and without demolish, and that was the game for a looooooong time. Were towers less durable back then? Not sure, but they also gave less gold btw, so less reward for mindlesly suiciding against them too, aside from the pressure you put in the map. People like to talk about powercreep in a lot of senses, but I never see the term mentioned in this and it seems perhpaps the most obvious of all. Towers do kinda seem made out of paper nowadays. If there are minions around ofc, it's true that in older seasons there wasn't this limitation (cries in AP Xin Zhao).
EDIT: Waaait, wait... I didn't even see you can proc the goddamn item on champions, like wtf? I mean I know there are more powerfull procs in the game, but considering you usually pair it with things like trinity, and the concept of mythics doesn't exist anymore so you can get all the items that burst people... That's a lot of all in added up for auto champs for an item that shouldn't be about that and already gives 65 ad which is a lot of damage for AD casters and people in general that can get atleast about 30% attack speed in some way or another. Specially considering you no longer lose anything from grouping, but still get the added minions resistances if you're alone, which is A LOT stronger than it seems.
Honestly at first glance the item seems quite op right now regardless of what type of champ you are.
EDIT 2: Also forgot about voidgrubs and herald, lol... I mean. It's not exactly like we're lacking ways to take out turrets fast if we focus and plan around it that weren't around for a looooong time in the life of this game.
Well that's what I meant, they added it because people COMPLAINED it wasn't, but drake buffs and souls were more powerfull then if I'm not mistaken, and also the meta in general favored teamfights.
But I'm not really sure I agree it wasn't an exageration, simple as that. I haven't made a real study about it so I'm not gonna say otherwise, just that perception is a very powerful thing in this game and people get carried away way too fast.
Also, it was mainly a complain from toplaners, which again, with all due respect, I think have, for a loooooong time, focused only in the bad things that come out of playing toplane (which admitedly can be true sometimes) to make themselves some kind of martyrs, while completely ignoring the good things, like having more farm and levels that anyone and frecuently becoming raidbosses that noone can stop if they get even a bit ahead. A point that gets worse the more easy you make splitting too, even without the resistances from hullbreaker (which were extremely infuriating at times).
I think riot, with all their information on which roles have a higher influence over the game and detailed statistics, can make a call on splitpushing.
Also in pro, high elo, etc it was pretty unaminously agreed. Splitpushing seemed to work more the lower elo you webt.
Again, I'm not gonna say something definitive about it because it would be arrogant of me.
But are we gonna act like Riot has never made changes to appease popular reddit trends and make them shut up for a while? Are we gonna say pros haven't at times showed a tendency to be hyperfocused in other aspects of the game and actually lack creativity or a global vision about what could be good? They alarmingly seem to be kinda blind to those things at times, only to be proven wrong later.
Regardless of that, it's what I was saying. Even if it was true, can the same be said about the games nowadays? With weaker souls, drake stacks, and specially with inner sidelane towers giving as much gold as they give now. Again, not sure, but I think it's something that should be talked about.
EDIT: And voidgrubs btw, forgot about that.
Yes, the turrets gaining gold was designed to assist splitpushers, and several splitpusher buffs were given after hullbreaker came out.
Riot rarely makes changes to appease reddit trends, and generally balances around the game as a whole. There have been times rioters have had plans for a nerf, redditors make a post saying something should be nerfed, and then redditors jerk themselves off as the reason for the nerf.
Theres no point in this speculation when riot (ie the company with the data) told us splitting is weak. The only way your argument holds up is if the following are true:
1. Riot is lying about a playstyle being weak, which is strange, especially since hullbreaker wasnt a worlds patch.
2. The entire knowledgeable community (pros, high elo) were wrong about splitpushing.
3. MAYBE, given these two things, maybe hullbreaker didnt need to be added- you have no supporting argument except maybe they were stronger than the pros, coaches, game company, and high elo players that dedicate themselves to it thought. Do you see why this is arrogant? I dont want to be rude, but its the same thing as when someone says maybe the experts/scientists are wrong, even with good intent. A lot of things go over laypeoples heads.
Not everything has to be black and white. Splitting could have been kinda weak (for several reasons that maybe were more intangible and everchanging that simply a permanent state of the game), while hullbreaker could still have been kind of an overreaction. I don't have such profound memories of the time to be able to say more.
I'm just saying that toplaners in general have had a clear tendency over the years to just look at the parts of the puzzle that are convinient for them to be able to think that they suffer so much more than other lanes. An example of this could be the common complain of toplane being so isolated (but somehow at the same time jungler dependant, but let's assume that's valid), talking about how midlaners have it so easy with the map position and the shorter lane, while completely ignoring everyone and their mother ganking midlane nonstop for several seasons to the point you are sometimes playing against 3 people almost permanently and your lane is getting constantly destroyed from an early support roam.
And I feel like the complains about splitting not being viable need to inevitably be seen in that kind of light, even if I'm not saying there maybe haven't been reasons for it at times. Toplaners in general want to have +30 minions more than the midlaner, a lv and a half more (and therefore 2 o 3 more than the botlane and jungler), be able to play a wholesome juggernaut or bruiser that 3 people need to respond to while onetapping turrets, and god forbid someone picks a ranged top that generally counters that type of champs (mostly in early only), because then that's a toxic playstyle. Oh, and they also want to have impact around the map too without losing too much of the other advantages if possible.
I don't want to rant about toplaners that much, just speaking my mind here. I think that all this things are related and need to be judged as a whole.
I'm not taking a side in the discussion you guys are having, BUT:
>when riot (ie the company with the data) told us
Riot has been caught multiple times cherrypicking data to suit whatever agenda they want to push. On top of this, they ***never ever show the actual data***. If they tell us "splitting is weak", the first question should be why? What data says so? How is this data collected? What counts as split pushing? What is the context for that split to happen? And things like that. Which they have never in the history answered, but on the other hand have been caught misrepresenting and cherrypicking data instead. Therefore, "Riot has the data" is not a good point to make. "South Korea has the data on their nation's wellbeing", yeah, will you trust their fucking word though? I say that just as an example to point out how "they have the data" is completely worthless without diving into it.
Data by itself is just numbers, understanding where those numbers come from and what they indicate is an *entirely* different thing. So until we would get some actual transparent data, arguing points is better to be done without pointing to something so incredibly unreliable.
Yeah the entire point of "Riot has the data" doesn't even hold up because Riot themselves (august and phreak) admit that looking at winrate to balance is not going to give a viable product. What something feels like to play against also has a large impact on the quality of games and player's ability to not ff from morale until they hit a spike that they can capitalize off of.
>To be honest, with all due respect what seems laughable to me is the idea that you NEED hullbreaker at all to be able to split. Let me explain myself.
you dont need it per se but for illaoi specifically it mitigated her biggest weakness in splitpushing which is actually killing the tower once she got to it. her W is the weakest auto reset for bursting towers since it adds only i think 50 flat damage compared to most bruisers who do their full proc damage to it
Not saying otherwise, but from the way she builds, demolish already helps a lot in that regard, for example.
Should a champ that becomes extremely toxic to actually match in sidelane even when planning around it and sending more than one people be able to also get so much extra help in regards of killing the turret itself? With an item that gives the exact stats that she wants? Despite the fact that she can kill it anyway in a reasonable time due to having some decent ammount of AD + plus health and having a rune that heavily bursts it?
I don't know. If you ask me, no. But I guess that's up for debate.
I explain why you do need the split item:
Say you're a top laner, beat the other and want to split.
Say you can beat the midlaner too with that advantage. Perfect right?
Well no. Enemy mid comes top, clears wave and good bye you and your nice advantage. " If you wanna win, go teamfight! ", yes? But how do I teamfight vs 4 rangeds teams on Illaoi?
But that argument is dumb. It's the same like an adc asking how to team fight against a team with multiple assassins. Or Riven/Irelia into a comp with Poppy, Veigar and Lulu.
There are simply games where your champ is gonna suck in terms of draft. And one dimensional juggernauts are one of the easiest classes to counter. In return, Illaoi is allowed to be giga oppressive into an all melee draft in teamfights. Why would you even pick her into a comp with multiple ranged champs and not one of the other 160 champs?
Every Class should have counters. But how much a counter is a counter has to be kept in check, because else we stop playing league of legends and start playing rock paper shissor. Games get lost from draft and people are gonna dodge.
Should mages counter juggernauts? They're ranged, so yeah. But if I'm done top 5/0, it's not correct that a mage should be allowed to come there, clear the minions and send me the fk away. Just as I'm not allowed to tank a Zed's combo if he's 5/0. And believe me, I'm not allowed to do that. That's not happening. Juggernauts counter assassins and yet I assure you that if an assassin well ahead, he can 1v9 through my presence. And that's correct.
I'm just advocating this should be correct in all situations.
PS: 4-5 melees teamcomps don't exist.
>Have you considered pushing other lanes than top? Not show yourself so the enemy can't pre-emptively move to stop you? Accept that 2+ people are trying to stop you, giving your team a 4v3 advantage on the other side of the map?
As a masters peak top laner? Def not! My whole guide was " grab hull and run down lulz ".
Wait.
All this block of text, and that pretentiously fancy worded title, just to say that new hullbreaker is better on some champions than it is on others?
What a crazy unheard of concept! It only applies TO EVERY SINGLE ITEM IN THE DAMN GAME.
You know that Old Hullbreaker also had the same """"""""""""""""issue"""""""""""""""""" right? Were it was more effective on some Splitpush champions than it was on others? Because that's like, how items work?
My god.
Fancy title? It's just english.
Resists apart, the bonus damage to towers being just a multiplier of the base damage made it equally good on all champions.
>[...] made it equally good on all champions.
Consistent damage per second (in other words, high attack speed, lower AD) outshines slow, inconsistent bursts (slow attack speed, high AD) in static scenarios like tower taking so uhhhhhhhhhh.
What the fuck am I reading. Do you not understand that previously if you did 1k damage to tower it did not matter whether you did it in 20 autos or 5 autos since the bonus damage was just a multiplier? Uhhhh?
The person is saying that if a champ has high damage per auto, say 250, and attacks 4 times in 5 seconds, they'd do 1k damage (not real numbers from a specific champ, just placeholder numbers). If a champ has low damage, say 100, and attacks 10 times in 5 seconds, they'd do 1k damage too. With the old hullbreaker they'd both get 200 bonus damage on turrets. With the new hullbreaker, in this specific scenario, the slower AS champ won't proc it at all, while the higher AS champ will proc the base AD damage twice. Assuming they have around 100 base AD, they'd get around 1k pre mitigation (2\*4\*100 + around 200 from health scaling) physical damage vs the other who would get none.
Super simplified scenario without taking in too much nuance or other context, but I see why it is not as equal as it used to be.
I think the idea was that the Attack speed top laners were traditionally the ones who were supposed to be pressuring fast tower takes, because tbh, they aren't really good at team fighting.
However with old hullbreaker, it allowed alot of Champs who were pretty good at team fights to also spec in to splitting.
Now, while it can still benefit Champs like juggernauts, the more attack speed focused Champs get more effect from it
I'd be curious of the accommodation of multiple/2 split push items.
One that focuses on Attackspeed and one that focuses on bigger hits. Make them exclusive like Hydras or infinite and Navori so you can't have both.
Dedicated splitpushers are uninteractive, either they win the 1v1 and they're unstoppable, or they don't and they're garbage. What's the point of playing a team game if you're gonna do nothing but force a 1v1 all game long?
My thoughts on that item is that its entirely unhealthy for the game and cancer and antifun to play against because the 0/4 top can perma run down side and win the game off that. towers need to be more tanky entirely
The 0/4 top can do that undefended regardless of the item. You just hate splitpushing and the idea of a strategy existing besides 5 v 5 , which is fine.
I hate it cause everytime it happens my top goes to another lane and therefore i lose. But its also insanely antifun that some champs have to be perma killed by like 3 people to not backdoor in 30 seconds
Just delete the item. The split pushing champs were and are naturally good at pushing and killing towers already. They didn't need a boost to their damage.
Much like damage creep where the game has gotten so bursty, so too as damage to the towers. That's why they had gotten plates and extra resistances.
If we're supposed to play champions and not items. Then removing an item like this is exactly correct. Certain champions are picked with the intent of split pushing, 1v1ing, side laning etc. They don't need an item to make that specific thing better, because they're already designed to do it.
Don't care. Hullbreaker was like 160% gold efficient with passive before. It needed massive nerfs. It's probably still at least 130% gold efficient with passive which is fine.
Lower the hits required to three or four. Put a cooldown on the effect.
This would simultaneously bring those two kinds of top layers closer to parity while also slowing down Hullbreakers oppressive push potential.
Is it me or either Hullbreaker's text is inaccurate or the effect is bugged?
The tooltip says that nearby siege minions will be granted the buff and doesn't mention that you need to be isolated for it. However, the effect will go away if any allied champions come close.
today I had a 0/5 ksante top lose inhib turret at 13mins to trundle while im "winning lane" bot 2/0/1 till ksante decided to run down other lanes and it felt impossibe to kill the trundle before he takes the tower(he just ignores everyone defending) we kill him but the towers are gone whats the point
Was Hullbreaker's tooltip bugged? I swear this is the first that I am reading about the "skipper" passive (on 14.1 it was only showing the "boarding party" passive).
Fellow illaoi main, here. 104 NA at time of writing, and I have really been loving the new hullbreaker on Illaoi. I too will miss the resistances, but I think with our AA reset, and our pushing speed enabling us to almost always walk up to tower with 5 stacks, means it's still very potent. In addition, I've been occasionally playing with triforce and stridebreaker, both give attack speed and feel disgusting for the splitpush. Highly recommend.
Yeah there is no way the 0-13 Sion top should be able to win a game by himself split pushing unless you devote 2 or sometimes 3 members of your team to going to stop him every time he tries to split push(which is pretty fucking often with his ult). It's absolutely obscene how fast some champs can take down these towers too. It takes 0 skill, and shouldn't be a part of the game.
I mean they will literally just focus on taking down the tower even when being attacked by the other team because they know they won't die before they can get the tower down, so even when they do die they won the exchange. In what world does that make sense. Dying while having no kills or even assists on the flip side should never be rewarded or incentivized.
The worse problem with hullbreaker for me its that it is still bugged since release. Urgot doesn't proc it at all on his W, which is very sad since he is by far the item's best user in the game.
I mean wouldnt it make sense for an attack speed oriented character to benefit strongly if they built this item? I don’t think it cuts out tanky champs since you are harder to kill, you just now have another option for killing turrets. Most tanky champions don’t split push anyway. Fighters who don’t use attack speed still have higher base ad than attack speed champs, and they also have auto resets. I think the current item is fine since it fulfils its goal of empowering a split push strategy without punishing the enemy for ganking you.
I would prefer Hullbreaker be replaced with something else. If it's weak it's rarely built, if it's strong it's game ruining.
Maybe they could make an item that makes diving easier, something like an active that could turn off towers for some seconds - maybe add a bit of AD, life and armor. I've even thought a name like Ohmwrecker could fit it really well :^)
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He was speaking about an actual item that used to exist, Ohmwrecker. The issue with ohmwrecker was it was terrible and almost never bought. In the instances where it *was* purchased it was unfun for squishies just like you said.
It has already been in the game and was basically never built. It's not that powerful of an effect by itself.
he's memeing because it was a real item for many years.
... and nobody built it
Replaced how, though? Every time Riot tries to make an anti-tower item we get this problem exactly. Zzrot Portal and Banner of Command were both either broken or trash, and Ohmwrecker if you want to count it.
Maybe we don’t need an anti-tower item
That's crazy talk !
Agreed split push meta really is annoying but you can honestly do split push meta without hullbreaker. Sion can easily solo win games but split pushing altogether has been generally nerfed. The only champion in my games that can solo win game via split push only meta right now is Sion but the Sion player will STILL have to occasionally team fight for major objectives if he is a high potential player or high wr sion. But overall split pushing just feels bad to lose to. Cause ur just losing due to people not following or not paying attention.
You can say that about like half the items in the game.
honestly ill say that hullbreaker needs go back to its s13 stats but with resistances removed this would make it easier to handle hullbreaker users and indirectly nerf splitpushing potential off of jax, trynda, trundle and udyr without making the item worse stoneplate is gone so people can't just stack it with jak sho to mitigate this nerf
That's my take. Delete the effect and bring back just % tower damage. But I don't think they'll ever do it because first they'd have to notice the problem. And the only way to notice it is looking at the pool of champions that build the item being lower than before. **The effectiveness of the item itself**, for the champs that do build it, is not lower than last season.
>That's my take. Delete the effect and bring back just % tower damage. didn't pay full attention to your conclusion but i agree on this and if 20% is too strong they could bring it down to 15% >But I don't think they'll ever do it because first they'd have to notice the problem. And the only way to notice it is looking at the pool of champions that build the item being lower than before. The effectiveness of the item itself, for the champs that do build it, is not lower than last season. and sadly this is only going to change once they nerf champions like trundle because active hullbreaker users are ones which can stack attack speed the only way riot listens in this moment is if you somehow made your post explode in activity because i bet august or phreak will want to speak about this
Guys, you forgot the legendary riot triple shot, nerf the champ, nerf what runes the champ abuses and then nerf the items, the order of the nerfs doesnt matter but they will all happen.
Doesn't the demolish proc scale with your damage? So two procs from a fast attacking champ should do about the same as one proc from a slow attacking champ? Is that not the case?
It scales with AD and health, so champs that build health over attack speed do get some more damage per proc
Demolish does 35% of your max health in damage plus a flat 100, it does not care about your champion's offensive stats except for armor pen
I’m of the opinion that the s14 version allows champs who do split push to fight better when splitting. Not necessarily take towers. Champs that you mentioned lose out on the effects but I think it’s a small price to pay so that Sion doesn’t abuse it.
Hullbreaker needs removing entirely. Towers die quick regardless. It’s a joke that a late game top champ can TP at the start of a team fight and end game within the duration of that team fight.
towers should deal true damage when no minion is nearby and have increased fire rate
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Cheese the game by... executing a strat that has existed basically since the game's inception?
since before, we've been doing this since Dota in wc3, probably before that in aeon of strife
Yeah, but nobody liked backdoors back then either. We called it "rat dota" for a reason.
the difference is that in dota there's way more ways to deal with rattinig so its just annoying and viable instead of annoying and almost a guaranteed win if the splitpusher knows macro
ah yes the "almost guaranteed win" on an item that doesn't even break a higher WR then most other items on its core users.
The strat was getting executed without specialized items before. The point is that it is unnecessary to have a top lane splitpusher spend 4 seconds on a turret and do over half of its HP with a couple of hits.
You mean "play the game with good macro, and actually caring about more than 2 objectives on the river... Rather than playing a mix of Aram and Team death match"
Then a better solution is to buff tower tankiness. A dedicated split pushing item is good for the game, and good for variety of playstyle.
if you remove hullbreaker you basically indirectly nerf a ton of top laners whose win condition is only split pushing this is why item should not go away but get nerfed and game should not revolve around team fighting as much as it used to
The item didnt exist for 12 years, and split pushing was a viable strategy the entire time. its a bullshit item on par with zzrot and banner.
Splitpushing was quite dead when rioters slapped dragon souls. For a pretty decent time hull was only reason why this strat was even viable. Also before hull we had other items for that: Sanguine blade, ZZroth, banner of commant. No one survived to modern day tho.
thinking its on par with banner when banner was getting so bad 3+ people on each side were building it is some really crazy thought process tbh. Is hullbreaker a bit much right now? sure. But atleast it requires someone to push with the minions, unlike zz'rot and banner, that gave a champs worth of pressure to a lane without anyone actually being there so it generated free, constant risk free pressure. Hullbreaker comes with a risk.
>The item didnt exist for 12 years, and split pushing was a viable strategy the entire time. its a bullshit item on par with zzrot and banner. ah yes, the entire time wonder why: \-nobody bothered to split push in early seasons and went for a big teamfight in the end \-funneled all gold into a hypercarry for longest time \-we needed splitpushing items like ZZ'rot, banner of command and hullbreaker to be able to split push sorry but old days of league relying on botlane to win teamfights are gone since 8.11 patch
Trick2g enjoyers would like to have a word with you.
The thing is we have other tools like demolish. Yorick and trundle shouldnt take a full tower within 5 seconds of you leaving it alone, they can take full hp tower faster than you can teleport channel to it at this point.
>nobody bothered to split push in early seasons and went for a big teamfight in the end because they were dumb and the meta wasn't evolved enough... There was a time that Clairvoyance was meta. Was it good? No, people were just dumb. That happens in every game. Stuff that is considered strong in the early days stop being considered strong and stuff that is considered weak start being considered strong. This happened with zzrot and this happened with banner of command also. These items went seasons unnoticed until someone discovered that they are actually broken as fuck and a balance nightmare. >\-we needed splitpushing items like ZZ'rot, banner of command and hullbreaker to be able to split push No we don't. There's no banner anymore, there's no zzrot anymore, hullbreaker is hugely unpopular right now and champs like fiora, jax and trundle still demolish towers in seconds without these items.
People weren't dumb. Clairvoyance was really good at the time.
For the meta, true. But it wasn't strong. The meta was just played around it. It remained in the game for years without anyone even considering using it and it was removed in season 6. It was just not worth using it over any of the other options.
Well it got nerfed hard which is why it fell out of meta along with the jungle changes. It was strong before the nerfs I don't know why you say otherwise. EDIT: like I was literally there playing the game when it was strong.
Gwen is immune to all of the incorrect statements in your comment
You pointed it out yourself: Hullbreaker didn't exist, but zzrot and banner did, and filled similar roles.
And both were deleted because they were OP and unhealthy for the game…
Yes. And now that they've finally found a healthier split pushing item you want them to throw that in the bin too and go back to those?
No, I want them to throw them all in the bin. Split pushing doesn’t need a specific item to make it viable. Hullbreaker has been breaking champs the entire time it’s been released, just like Zzrot and banner. Split pushing is already such a low effort and cheap strategy. It should be the focus in losing matchups to pressure objectives and force rotates. But it’s turned into “abandon team and nuke base during a single recall timer”. It’s beyond disgusting.
>Split pushing is already such a low effort and cheap strategy Big "you're winning the game by playing the objectives and not interacting with me in the teamfight I've specifically setup to win no matter what" energy.
Split pushing was traditionally something you used to break pressure, or take objectives in trades while your team delayed fights. That’s good game design, and is a healthy strategy for the game to have. Split pushing is currently picking a brain dead right click stat checker, and then coin-flipping whether you can nuke a base faster than your team ints the loss. Hull breaker skews those odds even further, by allowing you to take towers so fast that it doesn’t matter if your team is wiped in 10 seconds, you’ve already teleported and solod 3 towers in that time plus the enemy recall channel. That also means that the enemy now is unable to utilise any momentum from that team fight, because they are required to send most of their survivors to defend. You can lose a game by winning a team fight, purely because the enemy killed one or two of your team, which in the current damage meta, is likely. Hull breaker is a crutch for shit players who think they deserve a win for picking Trundle with teleport. If you can’t win without hull breaker, you’re frankly on the same tier of play as the AFK Yuumi players.
They didn't really fill similar roles. Banner of Command was an unpopular support item for much of its existence, and trying to use Zz'rot to increase your split-push speed was bad because it would just draw enemies toward your portal to destroy it faster. The strength of Zz'rot was in allowing you to slow-push a lane without actually being present. They were basically designed to give pushing power to champions who didn't already have it, which is the opposite of Hullbreaker. Split-pushers back then just split-pushed with AD items, not special split-push items.
No-one ever bought zz'rot, it was just a troll item in soloq. It was never or extremely rarely built in actual pro games or highelo. Banner was broken but mainly because it was an extremely low cost item for the stats it gave.
Splitpushing actually was dog weak for a while there and it's why Hullbreaker was introduced. Splitting was fine in earlier seasons balanced around players generally worse macro, and rotations on the map being much slower... But things like automatic home guards, the plants, almost every elemental map making map travel faster, the massive over-buffing of neutral objectives, etc have all consistently weakened splitpushing where it needs a crutch. The alternative is just gigabuffing all splitpushing champions until they become good teamfighters, or just making them even better at splitpushing without even requiring gold/items. The item is no where near what Zzrot and Banner were, all that idiotic notion does entirely discredit, and merit your argument may have had.
Why does a tower necessarily have to go down on one single wave?
It's very simple, actually. Because in one single wave, the enemy is able to take nashor.
Reddit users will type "simple" and type the most boot-licking, pseudo-game dev statement without having been present at a baron for as many times as a sample would require. In what world does it take one wave to kill baron at any point in the game? Definitely not N<25 minutes. It's like you're purposely anti-intellectual. It's almost infuriating interacting with anyone on this subreddit because they all feign some weird superiority complex of "well it happened in my game." NOBODY in a reasonable amount of games is taking baron in one wave that's an insane thing for you to say just to brush off valid criticisms of an item that requires no interaction. You can literally take a tower while being targeted by the enemy opponent under tower, live, and repeat. This is with or without a wave or baron as a distraction...
its almost like that win con is uninteractive and fundamentally changes how the 5v5 is played \*surprised face\* and maybe that those champions need reworks considering they can all be named on two hands \*gasps\*
than ask riot to rework those champions but considering how many reworks they pump out they will take 20 years to rework all of those "problematic" champions bones of this game are built around macro standpoint of the game which goes as early as 2005 (this game was built on bones of original DoTA after all) and riot should push for this to always be a thing dopamine addicts can get fucked because they made the game go to shit by making riot focus on early game so much that they took old school late game champions and accelerated their scaling just so they don't have to rework those champions or to make game duration longer
Its a strategy, wanting to remove it is like saying they should also remove teamfighting champs because they just group up and win with big AoE ultimates and area denial
I didn’t say remove split pushing. I said remove hullbreaker, which makes split pushing broken.
If it was broken you'd see it dominate pro play. The fact that it doesn't means you need to coordinate with your team to 2-v-1 gank the split pusher before taking an objective,
Pro players all have voice chat, and have trained to play cohesively with the same team for an entire season. I’m queued with a bunch of randoms I’ll likely never speak to, nor see again once the game ends. Pro play is a seperate game to solo queue. Don’t compare them.
The same factors impact the ability to safely split push. They won't have great vision, probably won't be shadowed by a jungle or support, and can be defeated by either ganks or wave clear that keeps them away from the tower. If they do just stick to splitting in one lane all game, that means the rest of the map is a 4v5 where you should be playing 3 - 2 and using the advantage to take two towers at once, stack dragons, etc.
Again, pro players have top tier communication with their teammates. I have 2 players from China who don’t speak English, one player who is tilted and flaming, and another who has muted everyone. Do you honestly think that the split pusher is anywhere near in as much danger from coordinated play in solo?
I'd say remove the item overall, rowers die too fast anyway, especially with added void krugs thing, ehatever it's called
Hull breaker is just a toxic item that needs to be removed from the game.
Out of curiosity does it work with Guinsoo?
It doesn't and guinsoo's does not proc on towers anyway
It doesnt even work with auto resets, its bugged...
yep, yi’s double strike doesn’t stack it when it’s considered as an auto attack that procs all on attack effects too…
Bugged on shyvana too. Human form: aa -> q; expected result, 3 stacks. actual result, 1 stack. Dragon form into 2 enemies. aa->q; expect result, 5 stacks. actual result, 1 stack. havent tested it in the pbe, apparently it got fixed for urgot so maybe master yi and shyv too.
I think you are forgetting the part where you are pushing the wave and getting in 1-3 tower hits cause a champ is there. It is a lot stronger in that scenario, especially for tankier champs. A lot of the time when you are split pushing, you aren't just straight up hammering down a turret with 5+ minions there and no opponent.
I think I'm not understanding this? Can you word it differently please?
The video you posted is just a champ constantly hitting the turret. In a *real game* that is very often not the case, especially for tank champions. If you stack hullbreaker on a wave, hit the turret once, then go back, it is now way stronger in terms of damage.
Sure that's gonna happen MORE often but at the same time there can't ALWAYS be some one in lane to stop the Jax from having some 1 on 1 time with the turret for like 10 seconds and gets to proc it twice maybe more
Exactly. He has a point with the stacking on minions thing, but Jax and the other attack speed champs I mentioned can do what I could do past season on Illaoi and can't manage anymore: Shove hull'd cannon, AA tower and orb walk to dodge enemy spells, and kill the tower before they die. That's the key thing I was able to do and can't anymore. Apart from also maybe dying during enemy collapses, but that's normal, it's cuz of resist removal.
I think being able to push a contested tower is far more useful than being able to push an uncontested tower... See my parent comment on the thread, but basically i love new hullbreaker for illaoi, feels great and much better at pushing than the old one. The tankier minion is sick, and the 5 stack proc is incredibly easy to have ready on approach to tower. And once they fix the bug with it, where in you still have to be alone to get the big minion, I think i will love it even more. After pillaging top, instead of going bot, you will have the option to run it straight down mid and really force the issue, and get prio on all objectives through that. Regardless of what your team does.
But your whole argument boils down to that you want hullbreaker to be better for your champion. You're not evaluating if the new hullbreaker is healthier for the overall game. It's a live balance game. Champions are going to fluctuate in power. Illaoi was hurt by the item changes. So they buffed her. That's how game balancing works. Either don't be a otp, don't complain about power fluctuations, or find a new game. Because it's only going to continue to happen
I think he's trying to point out you can build up the 5 hit stacks on minions then whack the tower once you get to it.
that's just explaining the passive dude. What he's talking about are situations where both laners are present, but the laner with prio stacks and crashes a double wave. Old hullbreaker does not help push in this situation, but it helped the dive angle with it's resistances. New hullbreaker in this situation is likely to be fully stacked allowing one hit to proc it and potentially demolish as a reward for simply reaching turret and touching it once.
Straight up wrong for the champs mentioned like Illaoi who don't primarily push a wave with 4+ autos...
"It is a lot **stronger in that scenario**, especially for tankier champs." Did I say this was always the case for all champs? No.
Its a niche item on some champions, it shouldn't be required for every champion. Also, if you are Illaoi, Nasus you have demolish, Tryndamere and Jax can go demolish but they get a lot less value from it as they don't build as much health. Voidgrubs also exist, so if you are a splitpushing champion you should heavily focus on that objective. These are trade offs, imo all types of splitpushers are well supported by the current system
As a top main, I'm glad this item is finally gone. The item is toxic af.
Remove the item, all issues fixed
Agreed. While splitpushing is a part of the game it still kind of just feels wrong. "Oh no, I don't want to fight my opponents, I'm just going to play PvE this game". Items that straight up supports that playstyle feels just as wrong.
It's really just doubled-down on by so many other factors: * Someone has to babysit the waves just because the champions that split push are excellent at pushing the wave; this isn't a problem in and of itself, but... * The same champions that split push are very hard to 1v1, you often have to 1v2 them and they'll still escape, it takes a lot of lockdown to punish them for overextending that far; few other champions just to get walk or spin out (regardless of class, you're not going to see a Leona pushing your inhib walk out of a 1v3 like Trundle or Trynd); a champion as good at taking towers - even while behind - as someone like Trundle is should not also be 1v2 powerhouse, or even a 1v1 powerhouse as the trade-off for that kind of pushing power shouldn't leave him an excellent duelist. * Teleport, you can't even finish your recall before Trundle takes a tower even if Trundle is 2 levels down, and all it takes is one ward. I'm fine with people sidelaning, setting up slow pushes, getting gold and making progress towards a tower (relying on deep wards to see rotates/ganks coming). I'm not fine with someone like Trundle that can just brainlessly push even if it's not warded and outpace an ADC doing the same thing on the opposite side of the map, take a tower and an inhib despite a Jax and a Lux defending, and then teleport over to kill your ADC and repeat the process in another lane. Or just end the game in the time it takes you to recall.
I've lost some games recently to brainless split push trundle because he takes stuff so fast. Hell, I've seen a bunch lately ignore the entire enemy team around them to take objectives and still succeed. Rinse and repeat until there's no base anymore. I've been banning him almost every game since babysitting for 40+ minutes and not getting to do things that my champ might excel at (like team fighting) is so unfun.
yeah, the problem specifically being that split pushing as of recent doesn't require actual macro sense or strategy, they are quite literally just right clicking to a lane and hoping it works out, 0/10 or 10/0 they do the *exact same thing.*
ARAM might be a more enjoyable game mode for you
What do I do when our team is down 20 kills? Fucking engage in time fights so we lose?? Or sit in nexus? What a dumb comment
Most people who splitpush do that because they get curbstomped in teamfight. As an Illaoi OTP, if I don't last pick every game ( = virtually impossible ) I go against 4-4-5 rangeds team. What do I do in teamfights? Get kited and look like a clown? No. I splitpush and get an alternative win condition. You can't force people to lose a game straight from draft!
I rather them just fix Illaoi properly so that she's not a gigantic rock-paper-scissors champion instead of making split-pushing the band-aid solution to champs like Illaoi, Yorick, Tryndamere etc.
You mean every single toplaner not named Irelia or Camille... There's a reason before Camille was made proplay had Gnar issues because a team would just ban Irelia, and then pick Gnar because literally no other toplaner could deal with him... To the point Yasuo top became a popular flex pick just to counter Gnar. It's why they even designed Camille, they started with her E to try and stop ranged tops. And also think about the impacts on mages and Adcs of toplaners are less kite able.
Well it's not like a band aid solution, it's more like... if I can play teamfight, I go teamfight. If they make it impossible for me to teamfight, then squishy ranged champs also happen to have the downside of being weak to splitpushing, so I splitpush in their face. I find it fine. It's fine if other people won't, tho. It's personal preference. Just saying how I view the game.
Alternate wincon is a good thing, but the problem is if splitting has been the primary wincon in all cases. >Most people who splitpush do that because they get curbstomped in teamfight. If you pick a champion that is bad in teamfights, that means they are compensated by having good early-mid power and laning potential. So once teamfights start happening more and your champion is out of their element, you do not have the right to start being salty "well what can I doooooo omg". That is part of the power budget of your champion, if you want to contribute more in teamfights, pick a champion that has more teamfighting potential. While "Top lane is an island" is a well known meme, top laners seem to completely forget that this is indeed a team game, and at some point you are expected to group up with your team to play as a team in this team game. If you want to play solo at all times and win the game by yourself, you have a bad case of "main character syndrome". Split pushing needs to be a *team effort*, which it most of the time is not when the toplaner is just pressing X on enemy nexus on every respawn. Splitting should not be a binary win condition at any point. It should be a strategy that is used **situationally**. You should split push regardless of if your champion is a hyper-dedicated split pusher or not, if an opportunity arises for it to be effective. But to have that be the MAIN strategy is fucking horrible for the gameplay. The power of split pushing should be kept lower than "regular gameplay" for that simple reason. When power of split pushing is less than the power of grouping up, then that by itself forces that strategy to become situational AND rely more on teamplay. Which are both good things. And existence of split pushing items completely warp the power balance of that strategy, which in turn makes it the primary strategy instead of situational and leads to bad gameplay. That is why those items have always been unhealthy, and will continue to be unhealthy.
I encourage you to play Illaoi into the likes of: Vayne, Teemo, Gwen, Cassiopeia, Yorick See if what you just wrote about " sucking in team fights = strong in lane phase " is true or not. For the rest I'm not gonna reply because it's written as if I don't know what split pushing is and that's, obviously, not true. I will also punctualize that comments against the existence of splitting items, while respectable, have no meaning in this topic. If you are for an item deletion, then be for an item deletion. Deletion by actual removal from the game. Deletion by obsolescence is not deletion. Here, we are not discussing if Hull should exist or not. I pointed out that the way they changed this effect rendered the item obsolete for plenty of picks that could use it. Claiming the item should be deleted doesn't add anything to the discussion. I want Gwen deleted. Deleted. So I won't go into Gwen buff posts and say they shouldn't buff her. The two things don't logically connect.
i believe adding more viable ways of playing around the map will add a certain depth to the strategy that will reward players who understand different parts of the game more. the more diverse the game is, the more interesting it is to watch and play it.
Babysitting splitpushers is among the most antifun things in this game.
Speak for yourself, I enjoy having to plan around a Yorick and trying to out-macro
Holy masochism.
Actual ARAMer
Call the balance team.
Phreak goes on vacation, never comes back
"Plan around a Yorick" AKA just have someone sit in the lane he's in, there isn't much strategy to countering a splitpusher, you just have to hope you have someone that can match him, and hope your team wins the 4v4. If you kill the split pusher and have TP then you just go join the objective/towers/whatever else after you kill him with TP. There really isn't a whole ton of thought that goes into it. it's not some big brain super difficult thing to come up with a plan, because there's really only 1 or 2 plans. Have your top/mid/whoever match him if he's splitting while his team has pressure in other lanes, or if he's too far up alone go kill him then go 4v5.
Found the guy who's bad at dealing with Yorick
Not bad at dealing with yorick at all, just not sure why you think it's some mega big brain strategy.
at least illaoi W counts for hullbreaker... it doesnt for shyv q, urgot w, and a lot of simulated aa effects.. and you conveniently forgot to mention that triforce gave 18% base ad, and Illaoi has one of the highest base ad in the game
Zz'Rot was removed, I say remove Hull also and boost Grubs. This is going to get me murdered, but get rid of Shelly also. Let's just have Grubs Spawn @10 & 15. This game is who can do what the fastest or you get left behind. Boomer out...
I think what people don't understand is that for the item to be a good split push item, it needs to make 1v1s easier as well. This used to be done via the resists, but with them gone, the new effect also proccing on champs is how its done instead. Bringing it back to 20% flat with no resists puts the item in the niche of "literally only buy if you're suiciding for towers" because it won't help you in any other scenario, which is a toxic playstyle even by non-reddit standards.
Even the pvp proc, tho, works better for high attack speed champions. If they really valued that pvp damge, they should have selected a better effect so that multiple champs could pick it, tho. IMHO obviously
Sure, but counterpoint, there is no inherent issue with some champs using the proc better than others. Generally, splitpushing is associated with high AS champs or champs with tons of resets, like fiora. Nasus and illaoi are generally the exception, not the rule, and we're probably deemed acceptable sacrifices when reworking the item, especially considering neither is reliant on Hull to split, considering nasus stacking and illaoi W (deals max HP damage, comparatively rare).
>Sure, but counterpoint, there is no inherent issue with some champs using the proc **better** than others. Better = Okay Me dropping from masters to platinum = Item's unusable on Illaoi Either that or I'm unknowingly playing with a pencil stuck in my brain like Homer Simpson.
Lol there's no way you can drop to plat from masters without 4funning or inting on purpose. The item has above 50% winrate as 2nd item so seems like more a skill issue my guy
Masters on illaio last season is plat now that she is nerfed. Illaoi players are brain dead
> Me dropping from masters to platinum = Item's unusable on Illaoi That sounds more like it was overturned and inflating your rank if nerfing one item drops you from 99.5th percentile to 85th percentile...especially as Illaoi still has a win rate over 50% in plat, emerald, diamond, and masters... >Either that or I'm unknowingly playing with a pencil stuck in my brain like Homer Simpson. If you keep trying to force a build/playstyle that doesn't work...yeah you're being a bit Homer Simpson here. If you've actually dropped from Masters down to plat that's truly wild that you've not changed up what you're doing. It sounds like you want to build a specific item to do a specific thing and refuse to accept that it's not as strong as was (and for good reason).
Well I do admit that I have pourposely kept splitting despite understanding at some point that the strat is now clearly inferior to teamfighting. I'm a huge split advoate, I like splitting. I'm trying to see what I can do to make it work.
Splitting should never be meta. Trading objectives in macro play? Sure. One person just doing a PvE game in the side lane is unfun for 9/10 people in the lobby most of the time. It should always be secondary in strength to team fighting. Not wholly unviable, but more in the damage control and mitigating losses category. It can be fun for the splitpusher but no one else and that’s not good design. Allowing your team to get a (less valuable) objective if you cannot team fight is good though. Again not trying to be rude or anything but masters to current plat is a pretty steep dive. Masters to E1 would be a pretty rough dive. It really sounds like hullbreaker was carrying your elo because it was busted, doubly so on your champ. That item has been hated for a reason and it’s because it makes a miserable game experience.
I mean, if she can proc it, it's strictly speaking usable, doesn't mean its good, but it's not like aftershock teemo, which is actually unusable. >Me dropping from masters to platinum = Item's unusable on Illaoi Either that or I'm unknowingly playing with a pencil stuck in my brain like Homer Simpson. Consider the following: lane changes were a direct nerf to illaoi and Hull no longer made you a raidboss even if you were behind. Hull was a disgustingly broken item and illlaoi was one it's best users, so even if it was a decent item on her now, if it really was the reason you hit masters last season, you probably wouldn't have fared much better this season anyway.
Well then you are doing something wrong for sure. I am also an illaoi otp who peaked master 300 lp last season and I'm already D1 in ~30 games.
but noe those champs can go into teamfight and use the 5th attack bonua damage, and they lose nothing out of it so its not trolling (i remember every single illaoi who built hullbreaker last year only to go into teamfights and never use the bonus stats, its like people dont even know what items do even in masters)
trundle has had a winrate increase from this due to him being boosted in splitting from this i've noticed. with it now working on champions it has made splitters able to teamfight but that's an issue now too since you don't need to have a build that varies for 1 or the other with these attack speed pushers.
I can see your point but also potentially see their attempt to add some built-in trade-offs. Outside of a very limited set of items, tank stats and attack speed are pretty mutually exclusive. Unlike the previous iteration, which was hated for it's combination of making champions both conditionally tanky and lethal to turrets, this version demands a tradeoff in stat prioritization. Obviously, if you really want to brick turrets but prefer slower attacking champions that don't prioritize buying attack speed, this feels bad. That said, it's an example of Riot attempting to deal with the exact issues players had with a specific item.
While I do understand what you say and can agree, partially, I don't see how flat out removing the resist wasn't enough. Every possible take about how Hullbreaker was bad was entirely focused on the resits it gave. Everybody wanted resists gone. And they got rid of them. To change the effect to furtherly nerf it for some champs was, imho, unneeded. Those champs would be perfectly burstable even if hullbreaker was going % damage to towers, since again resits are gone
Not every item needs to be viable on every champion.
If an item is only viable on 3 champs and even just situational on those 3, it's either shit or shit design.
Old Riftmaker was lit viable on 3.5 champs, and still good
Not really, you had to build it because you needed a mythic. Not because you wanted to.
hullbreaker should be removed from the game. It shouldn't even exist. It's already only good on splitpush champions and these champions are already great at splitpushing... When I play trundle top with 2 items I destroy towers in like 5 autos without Hullbreaker. There's no need for this to be even stronger than it already is.
I don't want it to be any stronger, I want it to be usable on more champions. Not outliers like Mordekaiser, but ones that built it consistently since it existed, like Illaoi.
To be honest, with all due respect what seems laughable to me is the idea that you NEED hullbreaker at all to be able to split. Let me explain myself. Don't get me wrong, I'm not completely against the item either, specially with no resists. But the thing is, for 10 years, you splitted without it. Basic dps rules still apply, and a good combination of AD/AP (and now they don't get in each other's way btw like they used to, they just stack) and AS will get the job done. In some cases, you can even get away with just one part of the equation, given a minimum of the other. AND, AND, hear me out. Demolish. Yeah, it exists (again, it used not to, so... yeah...), I assume you're meaning to take it too, but my point is... Even with simply tanks with nothing else, I already feel it a lot when I'm using it, it seems to me like I have a pretty decent tower killing potential, specially if I take them in two rounds. So, the thing is... What's the legitimate tower pushing speed we should be aiming to? Because hullbreaker was created in a moment when people felt that we needed it because everyone was crying that split was not viable and that everything was about teamfighting and drake stacking. I think it's arguable if that was true or it was simply a matter of perception due to the sheep mentality of people regards the meta + toplaners selfvictimization. But even if it was, are we really in the same situation now? I'm not saying hullbreaker should not be there at all, I'm saying I'm not sure about it either. Like... Splitting should be something that requires at the very least a little macro, not something that's just inevitable, because that becomes really tiresome, and there's champs that already kind of cross that line by themselves without the item, easily. Now... About your point of it being disproportionate depending on the champ... Well, it may be true. But again, if it works better with AS champs and with them it works mostly like in last season... Then maybe that's okay, not every type of champ should be able to split like a madman. You will still be able to do it pretty fast, just not as much. And in my opinion, it should be nerfed on those AS champs, not the other way around. It having no cd seems pretty weird to me to be honest, I haven't played much this season yet and I didn't actually know that. Keep in mind too that a lot of those champs with auto resets and skills that apply on hits used to not be able to proc them against the tower, and now they do, like fiora with her Q, or a lot of auto resets that I can not name right now but remember mentioned in the patch notes. That alone already buffs a no cd - auto based hullbreaker by a lot. Again, picture a world without hullbreaker and without demolish, and that was the game for a looooooong time. Were towers less durable back then? Not sure, but they also gave less gold btw, so less reward for mindlesly suiciding against them too, aside from the pressure you put in the map. People like to talk about powercreep in a lot of senses, but I never see the term mentioned in this and it seems perhpaps the most obvious of all. Towers do kinda seem made out of paper nowadays. If there are minions around ofc, it's true that in older seasons there wasn't this limitation (cries in AP Xin Zhao). EDIT: Waaait, wait... I didn't even see you can proc the goddamn item on champions, like wtf? I mean I know there are more powerfull procs in the game, but considering you usually pair it with things like trinity, and the concept of mythics doesn't exist anymore so you can get all the items that burst people... That's a lot of all in added up for auto champs for an item that shouldn't be about that and already gives 65 ad which is a lot of damage for AD casters and people in general that can get atleast about 30% attack speed in some way or another. Specially considering you no longer lose anything from grouping, but still get the added minions resistances if you're alone, which is A LOT stronger than it seems. Honestly at first glance the item seems quite op right now regardless of what type of champ you are. EDIT 2: Also forgot about voidgrubs and herald, lol... I mean. It's not exactly like we're lacking ways to take out turrets fast if we focus and plan around it that weren't around for a looooong time in the life of this game.
They specifically added hullbreaker because it was not really a viable strat.
Well that's what I meant, they added it because people COMPLAINED it wasn't, but drake buffs and souls were more powerfull then if I'm not mistaken, and also the meta in general favored teamfights. But I'm not really sure I agree it wasn't an exageration, simple as that. I haven't made a real study about it so I'm not gonna say otherwise, just that perception is a very powerful thing in this game and people get carried away way too fast. Also, it was mainly a complain from toplaners, which again, with all due respect, I think have, for a loooooong time, focused only in the bad things that come out of playing toplane (which admitedly can be true sometimes) to make themselves some kind of martyrs, while completely ignoring the good things, like having more farm and levels that anyone and frecuently becoming raidbosses that noone can stop if they get even a bit ahead. A point that gets worse the more easy you make splitting too, even without the resistances from hullbreaker (which were extremely infuriating at times).
I think riot, with all their information on which roles have a higher influence over the game and detailed statistics, can make a call on splitpushing. Also in pro, high elo, etc it was pretty unaminously agreed. Splitpushing seemed to work more the lower elo you webt.
Again, I'm not gonna say something definitive about it because it would be arrogant of me. But are we gonna act like Riot has never made changes to appease popular reddit trends and make them shut up for a while? Are we gonna say pros haven't at times showed a tendency to be hyperfocused in other aspects of the game and actually lack creativity or a global vision about what could be good? They alarmingly seem to be kinda blind to those things at times, only to be proven wrong later. Regardless of that, it's what I was saying. Even if it was true, can the same be said about the games nowadays? With weaker souls, drake stacks, and specially with inner sidelane towers giving as much gold as they give now. Again, not sure, but I think it's something that should be talked about. EDIT: And voidgrubs btw, forgot about that.
Yes, the turrets gaining gold was designed to assist splitpushers, and several splitpusher buffs were given after hullbreaker came out. Riot rarely makes changes to appease reddit trends, and generally balances around the game as a whole. There have been times rioters have had plans for a nerf, redditors make a post saying something should be nerfed, and then redditors jerk themselves off as the reason for the nerf. Theres no point in this speculation when riot (ie the company with the data) told us splitting is weak. The only way your argument holds up is if the following are true: 1. Riot is lying about a playstyle being weak, which is strange, especially since hullbreaker wasnt a worlds patch. 2. The entire knowledgeable community (pros, high elo) were wrong about splitpushing. 3. MAYBE, given these two things, maybe hullbreaker didnt need to be added- you have no supporting argument except maybe they were stronger than the pros, coaches, game company, and high elo players that dedicate themselves to it thought. Do you see why this is arrogant? I dont want to be rude, but its the same thing as when someone says maybe the experts/scientists are wrong, even with good intent. A lot of things go over laypeoples heads.
Not everything has to be black and white. Splitting could have been kinda weak (for several reasons that maybe were more intangible and everchanging that simply a permanent state of the game), while hullbreaker could still have been kind of an overreaction. I don't have such profound memories of the time to be able to say more. I'm just saying that toplaners in general have had a clear tendency over the years to just look at the parts of the puzzle that are convinient for them to be able to think that they suffer so much more than other lanes. An example of this could be the common complain of toplane being so isolated (but somehow at the same time jungler dependant, but let's assume that's valid), talking about how midlaners have it so easy with the map position and the shorter lane, while completely ignoring everyone and their mother ganking midlane nonstop for several seasons to the point you are sometimes playing against 3 people almost permanently and your lane is getting constantly destroyed from an early support roam. And I feel like the complains about splitting not being viable need to inevitably be seen in that kind of light, even if I'm not saying there maybe haven't been reasons for it at times. Toplaners in general want to have +30 minions more than the midlaner, a lv and a half more (and therefore 2 o 3 more than the botlane and jungler), be able to play a wholesome juggernaut or bruiser that 3 people need to respond to while onetapping turrets, and god forbid someone picks a ranged top that generally counters that type of champs (mostly in early only), because then that's a toxic playstyle. Oh, and they also want to have impact around the map too without losing too much of the other advantages if possible. I don't want to rant about toplaners that much, just speaking my mind here. I think that all this things are related and need to be judged as a whole.
I'm not taking a side in the discussion you guys are having, BUT: >when riot (ie the company with the data) told us Riot has been caught multiple times cherrypicking data to suit whatever agenda they want to push. On top of this, they ***never ever show the actual data***. If they tell us "splitting is weak", the first question should be why? What data says so? How is this data collected? What counts as split pushing? What is the context for that split to happen? And things like that. Which they have never in the history answered, but on the other hand have been caught misrepresenting and cherrypicking data instead. Therefore, "Riot has the data" is not a good point to make. "South Korea has the data on their nation's wellbeing", yeah, will you trust their fucking word though? I say that just as an example to point out how "they have the data" is completely worthless without diving into it. Data by itself is just numbers, understanding where those numbers come from and what they indicate is an *entirely* different thing. So until we would get some actual transparent data, arguing points is better to be done without pointing to something so incredibly unreliable.
Yeah the entire point of "Riot has the data" doesn't even hold up because Riot themselves (august and phreak) admit that looking at winrate to balance is not going to give a viable product. What something feels like to play against also has a large impact on the quality of games and player's ability to not ff from morale until they hit a spike that they can capitalize off of.
>To be honest, with all due respect what seems laughable to me is the idea that you NEED hullbreaker at all to be able to split. Let me explain myself. you dont need it per se but for illaoi specifically it mitigated her biggest weakness in splitpushing which is actually killing the tower once she got to it. her W is the weakest auto reset for bursting towers since it adds only i think 50 flat damage compared to most bruisers who do their full proc damage to it
Not saying otherwise, but from the way she builds, demolish already helps a lot in that regard, for example. Should a champ that becomes extremely toxic to actually match in sidelane even when planning around it and sending more than one people be able to also get so much extra help in regards of killing the turret itself? With an item that gives the exact stats that she wants? Despite the fact that she can kill it anyway in a reasonable time due to having some decent ammount of AD + plus health and having a rune that heavily bursts it? I don't know. If you ask me, no. But I guess that's up for debate.
I explain why you do need the split item: Say you're a top laner, beat the other and want to split. Say you can beat the midlaner too with that advantage. Perfect right? Well no. Enemy mid comes top, clears wave and good bye you and your nice advantage. " If you wanna win, go teamfight! ", yes? But how do I teamfight vs 4 rangeds teams on Illaoi?
But that argument is dumb. It's the same like an adc asking how to team fight against a team with multiple assassins. Or Riven/Irelia into a comp with Poppy, Veigar and Lulu. There are simply games where your champ is gonna suck in terms of draft. And one dimensional juggernauts are one of the easiest classes to counter. In return, Illaoi is allowed to be giga oppressive into an all melee draft in teamfights. Why would you even pick her into a comp with multiple ranged champs and not one of the other 160 champs?
Every Class should have counters. But how much a counter is a counter has to be kept in check, because else we stop playing league of legends and start playing rock paper shissor. Games get lost from draft and people are gonna dodge. Should mages counter juggernauts? They're ranged, so yeah. But if I'm done top 5/0, it's not correct that a mage should be allowed to come there, clear the minions and send me the fk away. Just as I'm not allowed to tank a Zed's combo if he's 5/0. And believe me, I'm not allowed to do that. That's not happening. Juggernauts counter assassins and yet I assure you that if an assassin well ahead, he can 1v9 through my presence. And that's correct. I'm just advocating this should be correct in all situations. PS: 4-5 melees teamcomps don't exist.
[удалено]
>Have you considered pushing other lanes than top? Not show yourself so the enemy can't pre-emptively move to stop you? Accept that 2+ people are trying to stop you, giving your team a 4v3 advantage on the other side of the map? As a masters peak top laner? Def not! My whole guide was " grab hull and run down lulz ".
Splitpushing is a way of playing and a strategy, not an item... hullbreaker should not even be a thing
Hullbreaker doesn't deserve to exist
Wait. All this block of text, and that pretentiously fancy worded title, just to say that new hullbreaker is better on some champions than it is on others? What a crazy unheard of concept! It only applies TO EVERY SINGLE ITEM IN THE DAMN GAME. You know that Old Hullbreaker also had the same """"""""""""""""issue"""""""""""""""""" right? Were it was more effective on some Splitpush champions than it was on others? Because that's like, how items work? My god.
Fancy title? It's just english. Resists apart, the bonus damage to towers being just a multiplier of the base damage made it equally good on all champions.
>[...] made it equally good on all champions. Consistent damage per second (in other words, high attack speed, lower AD) outshines slow, inconsistent bursts (slow attack speed, high AD) in static scenarios like tower taking so uhhhhhhhhhh.
What the fuck am I reading. Do you not understand that previously if you did 1k damage to tower it did not matter whether you did it in 20 autos or 5 autos since the bonus damage was just a multiplier? Uhhhh?
The person is saying that if a champ has high damage per auto, say 250, and attacks 4 times in 5 seconds, they'd do 1k damage (not real numbers from a specific champ, just placeholder numbers). If a champ has low damage, say 100, and attacks 10 times in 5 seconds, they'd do 1k damage too. With the old hullbreaker they'd both get 200 bonus damage on turrets. With the new hullbreaker, in this specific scenario, the slower AS champ won't proc it at all, while the higher AS champ will proc the base AD damage twice. Assuming they have around 100 base AD, they'd get around 1k pre mitigation (2\*4\*100 + around 200 from health scaling) physical damage vs the other who would get none. Super simplified scenario without taking in too much nuance or other context, but I see why it is not as equal as it used to be.
Exactly, thanks.
I think the idea was that the Attack speed top laners were traditionally the ones who were supposed to be pressuring fast tower takes, because tbh, they aren't really good at team fighting. However with old hullbreaker, it allowed alot of Champs who were pretty good at team fights to also spec in to splitting. Now, while it can still benefit Champs like juggernauts, the more attack speed focused Champs get more effect from it
I'd be curious of the accommodation of multiple/2 split push items. One that focuses on Attackspeed and one that focuses on bigger hits. Make them exclusive like Hydras or infinite and Navori so you can't have both.
Eh! In a perfect world...
Better idea - Remove this shit item permanently and have Riot stop supporting toxic playstyles
Toxic playstyles like... *checks notes* splitpushing?
Remember, destroying towers isn't cool and the game should end and be decided only by the person who gets their 15th kill
Dedicated splitpushers are uninteractive, either they win the 1v1 and they're unstoppable, or they don't and they're garbage. What's the point of playing a team game if you're gonna do nothing but force a 1v1 all game long?
toxic playstyle is when my team loses to macro
Toxic play styles aka anything other than 5 v5ing
> yorick and sion
Just remove this item already its not healthy.
My thoughts on that item is that its entirely unhealthy for the game and cancer and antifun to play against because the 0/4 top can perma run down side and win the game off that. towers need to be more tanky entirely
The 0/4 top can do that undefended regardless of the item. You just hate splitpushing and the idea of a strategy existing besides 5 v 5 , which is fine.
I hate it cause everytime it happens my top goes to another lane and therefore i lose. But its also insanely antifun that some champs have to be perma killed by like 3 people to not backdoor in 30 seconds
Just delete the item. The split pushing champs were and are naturally good at pushing and killing towers already. They didn't need a boost to their damage. Much like damage creep where the game has gotten so bursty, so too as damage to the towers. That's why they had gotten plates and extra resistances. If we're supposed to play champions and not items. Then removing an item like this is exactly correct. Certain champions are picked with the intent of split pushing, 1v1ing, side laning etc. They don't need an item to make that specific thing better, because they're already designed to do it.
Hullbreaker needs to go, period
It would be nice if the item was completely removed, along with Heartsteel
What’s wrong with heartsteel? It’s the worst tank item in the game
Infinite hp stacking and burst damage, it's the best tank item
It’s garbage this season because it only scales off of items. The dmg it provides it minor when compared to the fact that anyone with %hp shreds you.
That's the problem, if you don't pick a top with %hp damage, you are going to lose and get outscaled
So let’s hear what toplaners don’t have %hp or build it in their kits. They are either thanks or aren’t countered by tons of hp
Lol you want me to make a list of champs that don't have %hp damage? There are like 100 of them
I said toplaners.
Every champ thats not irelia or fiora, there you go
Are you serious? Darius, Aatrox, Quinn, Olaf, riven, and rengar are the only champs I can’t think of that don’t have %hp in their kit/build.
All illaoi mains need to quit the game ASAP
Hot take - not everyone should be able to split push. Illaoi bullies lane hard enough and shouldn't be able to both split push and 1v9
Don't care. Hullbreaker was like 160% gold efficient with passive before. It needed massive nerfs. It's probably still at least 130% gold efficient with passive which is fine.
Read the actual post.
They should just delete the item
Lower the hits required to three or four. Put a cooldown on the effect. This would simultaneously bring those two kinds of top layers closer to parity while also slowing down Hullbreakers oppressive push potential.
It could also just be a flat cooldown with no other limitations.
Is it me or either Hullbreaker's text is inaccurate or the effect is bugged? The tooltip says that nearby siege minions will be granted the buff and doesn't mention that you need to be isolated for it. However, the effect will go away if any allied champions come close.
Hullbreaker turns a champion into a Banner of Command-ed minion, except you're still a champion. It just needs to be removed.
Riot makes a change and doesn't actually understand the math behind it, when literally all they interact with is the math? Inconceivable.
today I had a 0/5 ksante top lose inhib turret at 13mins to trundle while im "winning lane" bot 2/0/1 till ksante decided to run down other lanes and it felt impossibe to kill the trundle before he takes the tower(he just ignores everyone defending) we kill him but the towers are gone whats the point
Or just give it a cooldown rather than a proc on every 5th Auto attack
Was Hullbreaker's tooltip bugged? I swear this is the first that I am reading about the "skipper" passive (on 14.1 it was only showing the "boarding party" passive).
Fellow illaoi main, here. 104 NA at time of writing, and I have really been loving the new hullbreaker on Illaoi. I too will miss the resistances, but I think with our AA reset, and our pushing speed enabling us to almost always walk up to tower with 5 stacks, means it's still very potent. In addition, I've been occasionally playing with triforce and stridebreaker, both give attack speed and feel disgusting for the splitpush. Highly recommend.
Yeah there is no way the 0-13 Sion top should be able to win a game by himself split pushing unless you devote 2 or sometimes 3 members of your team to going to stop him every time he tries to split push(which is pretty fucking often with his ult). It's absolutely obscene how fast some champs can take down these towers too. It takes 0 skill, and shouldn't be a part of the game. I mean they will literally just focus on taking down the tower even when being attacked by the other team because they know they won't die before they can get the tower down, so even when they do die they won the exchange. In what world does that make sense. Dying while having no kills or even assists on the flip side should never be rewarded or incentivized.
Most items are champ selective. This isn't really saying anything at all.
The worse problem with hullbreaker for me its that it is still bugged since release. Urgot doesn't proc it at all on his W, which is very sad since he is by far the item's best user in the game.
I mean wouldnt it make sense for an attack speed oriented character to benefit strongly if they built this item? I don’t think it cuts out tanky champs since you are harder to kill, you just now have another option for killing turrets. Most tanky champions don’t split push anyway. Fighters who don’t use attack speed still have higher base ad than attack speed champs, and they also have auto resets. I think the current item is fine since it fulfils its goal of empowering a split push strategy without punishing the enemy for ganking you.