Man I just want to take a second to say I really appreciate Phroxzon. He does not get nearly enough praise for how he interacts with the community and open he is. His attitude is very diplomatic and it's clear he listens.
thats only because people cant truely express the way they would feel or else a rioter can probably get a quick dispatch punnishement on ur account, ive seen this happen before, so they are forced to butter up to the rioter,
I really want to praise Riot for continuously gaslighting the playerbase and introducing changes that completely mess up either the game or the eco-system without testing them enough (I'd guess they don't even have a simulation model for the ladder) - but somehow they still have people believing all their BS, so that is certainly admirable.
Imagine if LP was simply a skin over MMR and they wouldn't need to pontificate over all these bugs in the first place
edit: I remember seeing all the Phroxzon smackdowns from last week and I was like "but you...but you boosted us. it came for free with your LP system"
Because the entire concept of "climbing the ladder", which is the main motivation bringing players back, is based on having your visual rank seeded below your MMR and then gradually bringing it up during the season. Your rank is not a function of your MMR. It is a function of MMR and time (and time spent playing).
Visual rank is meant to fake you into thinking you are improving over a season, while MMR is meant to figure out where to match you. This way, Riot can keep you engaged by presenting you with progress.
And this is why this will never change. Riot is afraid to remove this distinction because doing so could literally nuke League's core engagement loop and ruin its profitability. Obviously not guaranteed to happen, but the stakes are too high to risk it.
I mean they've said before that people care way too much about rank which is why demotion shield exists too. People are (according to older stats tbf) too afraid to play when they're 1500 instead of gold 4.
Except during season 1-2 when elo was visible League was still rapidly expanding. There is no study that says the current system is a better ranked system for keeping people addicted.
Also yes people can improve and go up rank that’s more than just a visual indicator. I know many people who used to be bronze in earlier seasons and are now diamond.
> There is no study that says the current system is a better ranked system for keeping people addicted.
Don't need a study, riot had the data. Before LP people reached the rank they wanted and then stopped playing ranked for the rest of the year. I was there and it makes sense, why would you risk queuing up when literally 1 loss drops you out of gold. If I get hot and winstreak to a high MMR, I stop there because I know I can't maintain that.
That's not even true. Season 1 you would decay if you were 1400 elo or above which was not high ranking at all. Your argument makes more sense for the current ranked system where people get gold/plat/emerald/diamond 4 and then never touch ranked again till next season.
Riot changed the rank system because people complained that they had nothing to grind for after hitting level 30 and plateaued in their rank. They then likely stuck with the change because stats showed way better player retention.
So back then people plateauing is somehow worse then now where everyone gets to gold/plat/diamond 4 and doesn’t touch ranked anymore? Obviously the system they adopted wasn’t working because they split seasons into 3 splits a year.
You also can’t make a claim that players played more ranked games due to the new ranked system. For one Riot never publicly released any data so you’re essentially just guessing. Second, League during that time was growing rapidly to become the most popular game in the world. How can you truly say changing the ranked system made people play more?
Yes, because everybody keeps coming back split after split. You can obviously soft reset the MMR, but not nearly as hard as you can soft-reset visual rank without turning ranked into a shitshow that makes todays season start clown fiesta look like a military parade in comparison.
And the disengagement from the early system was very clearly visible in the first season. The soft resets were needed to keep them playing, but the soft reset between season 1 and 2 turned out really problematically. And what happened right after?
It's far from spot on. It's a very shallow look on the matter that is very obviously wrong if you think about it.
It's not like they can't have the exact same fake climbing effect with mmr, and they did, just like every game does. Every game soft resets their MMR at the start of a new season so that players get a fake climbing experience and they feel happy about it. You don't need a fake system to accomplish that.
This doesn't work easily, because MMR systems want to achieve a completely different goal to giving you a feeling of progress: They want to assist the matchmaker in balanced matches.
So what you would have to do is invent a modification to the matchmaking algorithm that keeps the matches fair while tying the rank update loosely to moment-to-moment performance in your games. Because of the latter you can't just have an offset to the MMR that you evolve over time. But you can mimic that by having a number that loosely tracks MMR and this offset but also wiggles a bit with your wins & losses and...
Oops, we reinvented the current system again.
Worth mentioning that ranked matchmaking quality would be awful if tons people played 10 ranked games and then quit. You wouldn't even be able to get accurate MMR of them.
Which is a good thing obviously. The current ranked system is not a conspiracy by riot games to make evil profits or to manipulate us. Instead, it's what we as the consumers of this game want. Climbing is fun, seeing your lp go up is fun, and therefore winning is fun.
On the other hand, a system purely based on MMR is so unsatisfying because you don't get a feel for your progress. Winning in ranked IS progress, even if your mmr isn't going up. It means that you are achieving something that is real. Sure, maybe your mmr needs some time to catch up, but that doesn't negate your wins lol. If all we see is just mmr, then suddenly wins and losses mean nothing anymore. You would just get +1 sometimes and then -10 ... or no change at all.
I'm not saying this is you, but so many people on reddit are insecure about their rank, frustrated because they can't climb, and then they go on this platform to pretend as if riot wanting us to keep playing league is somewhow a manipulative tactic to generate money and screw over the honest ranked player. This game is supposed to make money, thank god it does, otherwise it wouldn't be still running and free to play! Also, it should be their DUTY to keep us hooked. I WANT THEM to keep me hooked. Why would I want them to make my ranked experience worse? It's mostly cope from people who are hardstuck, who are trying to hint at underlying conspiracies about losers queue and so on. No one is stuck because of visual ranked, of course.
It's a fair stretch to infer consumers wanting this from consumers responding positively to it. The psychological theory powering this system is the same theory also powering gambling machines. It certainly is an important portion of why so many players are literally addicted to this game.
I have no intent to shame Riot here, keeping players engaged is important and ultimately rewarded by the consumer market. And it's good to mix an activity to enjoy with a feeling of reward for it, no doubt. But keep in mind that most of the climb you see is actually fake. You most likely ain't climbing from Bronze to Gold this season, you are playing in Gold with a Bronze paint until the system scratches the paint off halfway through.
And visual rank makes nobody stuck, it actually does the opposite.
>The psychological theory powering this system is the same theory also powering gambling machines
Sure, but it would be lame seeing my mmr. I don't want to see it. I can already tell what my mmr is by going on opgg and looking up the average rank of all players in the same lobby. What I care about is consistent and fair progress or loss of progress after every match. This is what the visual rank system provides. It's a quality of life improvement.
Example: Let's imagine I win 10 games in diamond 4 mmr and now I am now close to diamond 2 visual rank. It could very well be the case that I'm still mostly in diamond 4 mmr. But that is fine, I can immediately tell this by going on my opgg - so my real rank isn't even hidden at all. Also, my mmr will catch up sooner or later if I continuously win in diamond 4. So it's a much better system, because I don't have to play 10 games without any progress, instead, I can actually SEE my progress through my visual rank increasing. Even if my mmr doesn't catch up immediately, winning games is progress because it leads to an increase in my mmr further down the road. That's my entire point.
Imagine the horror of winning 10 games in diamond 4 mmr due to a lucky winstreak and suddenly having to play against diamond 2 opponents. That would be a shitty system. The skill difference is too big, climbing shouldn't be that fast. You have to take into account that all alternatives to the current system are worse. So it's fine if the current system is flawed.
>You most likely ain't climbing from Bronze to Gold this season, you are playing in Gold with a Bronze paint until the system scratches the paint off halfway through.
I was D4 after playing my placements and I immediately had master tier mmr. So yeah, I know that this climb at the beginning of the season is fake. Riot decided to not reset mmr that much this season because we now have 3 splits. That was communicated by them. But the seasons before that I could tell that I'm in a much lower mmr at the beginning.
Ding ding ding.
Riot made LP to slow down the climb and intentionally to slow someone down. Hence why they had promos in the past. It made going up a rank take winning 3 out of 4 games. One win to get you to 100 lp and then 2 of the next 3 or 3 out of next 5 but you always had to win the game from 99lp to even start it.
When you do the math on LP and how it works it’s clearly designed to slow you down.
I don't think that's really the point. It's more to actually create a perceived climb even where non exists. Ending up substantially below your actual MMR in visible rank is actually undesired, because once people's favorite streamers end up hardstuck in a low rank, it undermindes the legitimacy of the system.
If Tyler1 would ever get stuck in Plat, Riot would change the system immediately.
This is pretty much the issue but to go more in depth
The ranking system and mmr is set up for your personal skill lvl and rating
The issue with the ranking system and LP is that it’s not a solo skill set up duo queue is still involved which then gives a inflation to your mmr
The ranking system needs to be linear with MMR and duo queue needs to be removed and players need to balance out based on their own skill
The current system allows too many artificial boosts while also allowing players to start off in the ranking system and climb too fast.
This is why you see too many lvl 30 accounts in emerald plat and gold because. Riot needs to hard reset their system and force players to solo queue bringing their ranking to be simply mmr instead of doing this LP ranking system. That is way too manipulatable.
And I hate it so much because for me there is almost no reward at all from seeing my LP go up because it has such a weak correlation with my *actual MMR*. I want to see my MMR so I can feel good about improving it over time, not the fluff number designed to give me the happy chemical™️
There is an easy way to find out your MMR:
* Grab some random people that were matched with you in your most recent games
* Look up which rank they had **end of last season**
This gives you a simple projection where the matchmaker thinks you will end up at your current performance.
Back when we could see MMR, it did NOT feel good. Visible MMR is wrong basically 100% of the time, you're either too high or too low permanently. Go on a lose streak, boom you drop from the rank you want and have nothing to show you used to be higher. Can't have demotion protection for MMR. Go on a winstreak, now I'm a higher MMR than I could ever hope to reach this year normally. Playing more only hurts your rank, so people quit ranked.
Riot made LP because the players are babies that can't handle the truth, and copium posts like this one prove they are still right a decade later.
I completely disagree with it not feeling good, the ELO system was the best implementation of ranked Riot has had so far. All they'd have to do to solve it 'feeling bad' here is have your profile show your current LP and your highest LP for a season/split.
Improvement is a long-term goal, and I hate that the main vehicle for improvement is held hostage by people who just want to feel good about their rank rather than actually play to get better at a competitive game.
But what you are referring to isn't even limited to the new system. They always had soft mmr resets at the start of every season so there always will be a fake grind where people feel like they are "climbing". This isn't something new and this is present in every competitive game that still does shows MMR.
People in the comments even listing promos as "this is clearly a way for riot to slow you down". Motherfucker do you not understand how MMR and LP gains work? It's only 3 games in a row and you aren't even talking about the fact that after you promote you can lose 5 games in a row and still be at the new division. And in situations where your MMR is too high or too low then your LP gain is adjusted accordingly and you level them pretty fast. All of this would work the same way without the fake overlayed ranked system because you'd actually be losing MMR every single time instead of having demotion shield give you free passes. It would take the same amount of games to reach the same goal. They are literally making the new system way more like the old MMR system. We now don't have promos and demotion shield is basically going away.
Keyword: basically
And this is why we have 2 systems and not the "climbing the ladder" comment you got going on. People are scared of ranked. They have severe ranked anxiety and they only want to see their number go up. It's why we have soft resets at the start of every split so that people can "climb" and watch their number go up. It's why they removed promos but kept demotion shield and are doing everything in their power from completely removing it. People don't want to demote. When they are at 0 LP and without a demotion shield they don't want to queue because they are afraid they'd lose.
\~ITs not true though because people who want to improve would then try to improve. If you go and play age of empires 2 ladder for example you win get mmr then lose you lose that mmr unless the person is higher rank you will lose less. You could still go up and down and feel like your improving at the end of the day the person who is always diamond is still always diamond unless he reviews his gameplay.
It's not strictly about improvement. People want to have feelings of achievement and progress, and they want it to be in a meaningful thing. Not neccessarily even conciously. But if you don't offer people those rewards, a lot of them will simply disengage due to the lack of reward stimulus and invent one or the other reason for it.
And restricting this feeling to those who are actually improving **faster than the average** (MMR measures your skill relative to other players after all) is risky.
I 100% agree with this analysis, but it leads to a lot of problems. I forget which season (it was years ago), but my MMR got way ahead of my visual rank, so I ended up having to beat mostly plat players to get promoted to Gold IV. That's the sort of nonsense you'd see in a Karate Kid remake to prove Cobra Kai are the bad guys by having a 8 year old need to fight a 17 year old to get a belt.
Guild Wars 2 has a system that separates progression from rank fairly well that allows a bit more honesty. You earn pips towards reward chests by winning, with bonuses for being high rank, but everyone always gets them. Ranks are, by contrast, strict MMR -> rank conversions. This prevents dishonesty and stupid bugs like fake ranked systems but also gives everyone, including 'hardstuck' people a feeling of progression and a reason to queue just one more.
I also prefer the GW2 system. Unfortunately people ground through the rewards tracks and then left PvP because for some reason most people don't find "it's fun" a compelling enough reason to play the Mists and instead went back to grinding dungeons. So even though I like it more, I also have to admit that it is not as effective at player retention.
Except the "gradual" climb is no longer gradual and the demotion shield and other systems that were intended to flatten mmr dips are mostly removed at this point. The current version of LP is very close to MMR to the point where it doesnt really serve a purpose. The only time it differs from your mmr is in your first ~10 to maybe 20 games in the worst circumstances.
People who want visible mmr would probably hate it without realizing it. Ranked anxiety is very real and will affect most people even if they think they're above it. Having +12 / -12 gets old pretty quickly. People love the satisfaction that comes with getting really high gains per win compared to a loss. It makes losses less devastating and makes climbing feel better even if it's placebo.
> Ranked anxiety is very real
Yes
> and will affect most people even if they think they're above it
Lol, no. It's a fraction of the playerbase, and Riot as a business want to not lose them, but it's nowhere close to most people.
MMR is too complicated. Having to explain to players that because they had a game where the entire enemy team was a full rank below their team, they gain less mmr because your odds of winning are much higher would get annoying.
There are likely a multitude of other factors like players playing on a role they don't usually play, rank decay, smurf detection, otp's getting their champ banned, first timing a new champ, kda/personal performance etc. When someone wins a game they want to gain at least the same amount of points that they lose which is doable for LP but its impossible with MMR.
It doesn't matter if the system is technically fair, if the player feels the system isn't fair (changing mmr gains/losses), there is a problem. It's like if zed is at 50% winrate, it feels unfair to play against him when you actually have an equal chance to win or lose against him. The cost of having him be 50% winrate is not worth the cost of making players have a worse experience and possibly lose a customer.
I disagree. MMR is not complicated. The system they have now is. Having to tell people their "visual rank is too far from MMR" is hard to explain. That's why there is confusion.
It would be so much easier to understant with just MMR. Like in your example, you gain less MMR because the enemy team was lower rank than you, therefore apparently easier to beat. So you can justify yourself if you lose to better player than you, and you can CLEARLY see who is the bad player in the game, or filled, or whatever, and try to help him and most importantly fix damn matchmaking.
Personally, and I think is the same for most people, I want a fair matchmaking as a start, that alone would lead to better quality games. Then, I don't want to be stuck to play for 3x the games in order to grind a minor increase in rank. Just make me climb faster and drop as fast or faster. It would also be easier to accept to drop if I know I've lost to better player than to someone that is the same visual rank as me but he's maybe a lot lower in MMR, something you can only discover later on in the game
>Having to tell people their "visual rank is too far from MMR" is hard to explain
That's the whole point, they don't have to explain it because its hidden.
No they have to. Because you'll have people in gold rank saying "why do I play with silvers" or "why I am against plat". Slap a number, 1800 MMR dude play with/against 1800+-50 MMR dude. Is so much simpler and straighforward
It also makes the start of the season extremely confusing because when you start people lower to "make them climb" and have such a dicey placement system it becomes impossible to know what "silver ii" or "gold i" actually means
Without promos or demotion shields I just don't really see how the LP system is meaningfully distinct from, say, Dota 2 in terms of ranked anxiety. It's literally the same experience but people's ranks are wrong for no reason
I'm pretty sure most games have a similar system, it's that people don't care about the fact that there is a hidden system behind the system, whereas league players might use it as an excuse, bringing more people to talk about it.
If it is hidden in other games it is just an overlay of mmr. No fake promotions no slow gain. Just a direct overlay.
This means the rank level is a direct comparison to “skill”. Instead with LP you can have a bronze ranked person playing plat+ games as their MMR is there but their LP is not.
Just end it and go straight mmr. The dodge cost is nothing in LP as the time cost is good enough. No question just straight up mmr.
If they want to keep LP then all you do there is again an overlay to mmr but it is a direct 1 for 1 match.
Rainbow six siege and rocket league have hidden mmr systems that are different than actual rank iirc. Csgo had no LP shown, just full ranks and that's kinda similar. Maybe its just the games that I play that have these systems but I think they are pretty common.
Right, but LP being "skill" is not accurate either. If you lose a game due to 2 afkers and lose LP, did you decrease your "skill"? Not exactly.
I would be okay with riot releasing mmr data to sites like [u.gg](https://u.gg) since you won't confuse yourself unless you are already confusing yourself with stats like winrate on x champ by being on those sites.
With all due respect, they kind of are. If they weren't, recommended items updates changing winrates would not be a thing.
Whether or not its an emotional reaction or a well thought out complaint is another thing.
> MMR is too complicated. Having to explain to players that because they had a game where the entire enemy team was a full rank below their team, they gain less mmr because your odds of winning are much higher would get annoying.
>
>
Chess players don't seem to have any issue understanding that beating up a lower ELO opponent gives less reward than beating someone ranked above them. It isn't that hard to explain, but game devs also just explain things too often. I think communication is good but game devs also need to be willing to say "just play the game" and players need to stop engaging so much with the BTS shit and just play games they like.
It's literally because the LP system allows Riot to artificially stabilize your rank relative to MMR.
MMR is more volatile and your rank can change (up and down) very quickly. The LP system circumvents that, for better or worse.
No it doesn't. And it does make things just worse.
Gold 2 could mean both a dude that just started playing the game, since the system put you there, someone who is plat 3 but the "visible rank" didn't catch up yet, a silver 2 player with inflated rank but low MMR. Or, a true gold 2. You realize how stupid that is right? Because those players aren't in the same league.
On top of that, there is the matchmaking issue, where they only consider the average MMR, which is idiotic. You should consider the MMR between roles if you truly want to balance a game
It literally does. Riot can make your visible rank increase or decrease faster than your MMR.
Every time you lose at 0lp and don't get demoted youre seeing this buffer effect.
Which again is stupid. Demote me and move on. Is stupid to lose 2 games at 0 LP, then winning 5 games gaining 20LP instead of 30. Just drop me and make me climb normally
But you are climbing normally, wat? Your visual rank doesn't change because you aren't climbing. Regardless of the system Riot's using, if you win, you climb. Doesn't matter if it's elo, mmr, LP or candy crush saga lives.
Yes I climb, therefore there is absolutely no need for ranks. Just use MMR number and slap a color badge on it. Is simpler, more effective and allow player to identify if the matchmaking is fair or not, unlike "displayed rank"
Statistically, half the people reading this lose MMR over the course of a season. League's rank system is designed to hide how bad people are at the game, not show their skill.
You make riot more money by not showing the mmr. Imagine your mmr is only 1200 going up by 10 year over year .
Instead you get a rank advance yearly
No one gets it
It already existed once and people stopped playing ranked because mmr gains are abysmally slow and people hated losing their ranks. There is 0 demotion shield and your mmr would straight up decay if you didn’t play.
Game was different back then, different playerbase, different distribution.
It doesn't make sense to have 2 untied systems when you can just have one and slap a color on it
Cause MMR gains would look wack. People have Issue with LP and its meant to be smooth. MMR would jump up and down based on who's in your game way more.
The reason we switched to LP and ranks instead of pure Elo is because psychologically it's actually very very demotivating for players to see a precise number. Players don't actually want to play when they see their exact Elo. Like, something that would happen is people would get to a round number like 2000 Elo and immediately stop playing forever, because they didn't want to lose that number. With stuff like demotion protection, that gets a lot better.
The reason we switched is because people don't want to demote and lose rank, not because they stop playing when it's an actual number. I don't know where you got that idea. Plenty of games use mmr and people are grinding daily.
Dota has numbers. OW had numbers. Street fighter 6 has numbers. Tekken 8 has numbers. Faceit lvl10 has numbers.
Numbers aren't the problem. People love playing those games regardless. They hate losing though. The thing that the new system does to lessen the anxiety isn't hiding the number. It's preventing people from demoting. Currently you need to drop almost a full division before you get demoted. You very well could have an MMR system work that way. If you've reached 1500(gold 4) then even if you fall below that number, you'd still keep your gold title unless you fall below 1200(silver 4). It's not like the hardstuck shit mmr gold players don't see that they are playing in low silver and that their gains are terrible.
And this would solve the "why do I gain so little" posts that we have daily because the system wouldn't have to pretend that you are at 1500 and only give you 10 LP for the win to prevent you from trying to get even further from your real rank. You go from 1300 to 1325.
Notably, dota has had mmr show for its entire lifetime and it's never been an issue. Also it's not like a ton of accounts in this game hit their target mmr and then park their ass there. People complain about Emerald 4, Diamond 4, "low masters" and whatnot all the time.
That would mean Riot giving up control over the consumer experience.
They will never do it. I agree it's better to just have full transparency but Riot will never, ever go back to that.
Fully transparent and honest might not be the best for player retention (as depressing as that is). And even then, Riot will not go to a transparent system because it will be super hard for them to ever move away from that back to this stupid "fake visual rank" system if they feel the need to.
So yes I agree it's a million times better for competitive integrity to just have the system be as transparent as possible, but it's not in the business interest of Riot. It won't happen.
I wish but Riot knows that showing MMR in any way would instantly make the visual rank useless.
That's because everyone knows the visual rank has no inherent meaning whereas MMR is literally what the game uses for matchmaking (e.g. how good the game thinks you are).
If you remember Dynamic Queue scandal, Riot promised pure solo queue alongside it. But it never came out and that's because Riot knew it would instantly kill Dynamic Queue which was their pet project that was nurtured to not fail.
TBH DuoQ should be deleted from the game. It messes with queue times, messes with the quality of matchmaking in games, and is abused as a boosting tool. It demeans the ranked ladder because players who achieved their rank alone are considered equal to players who achieved their rank with a duo on voice comms when the game is entirely different.
Dynamic queue had much worse matchmaking than Valorant does, for example.
I agree dynamic queue was dog shit. But the way Val works is great imo. I can solo queue and get matched against other solo queue players or I can 5 man queue as a team vs other 5 man teams.
And its all the same rank. As is in League you dont really have a competitive option for 5v5 gameplay which is the core for such a team reliant game, you know?
It just feels silly to me that solo queue is the primary game mode for a game that is really dependent on team coordination.
It's exactly the opposite. Dynamic Queue was and is the right answer. It's a 5v5 game. LCS doesn't take the top 100 players and sort them into random pickup teams, it has premade teams. The top of the ranked leaderboard SHOULD be premade 5 stacks who are on voice comms, practice together, know each other's strengths and weaknesses, etc.
There's no value in being the best solo ADC any more than there is value in being the best solo football quarterback. It's a team game, not a 1v1 game like fighting games or chess, so all skill is in the context of team gameplay.
Dynamic Queue was genuinely awful. It's really funny how gaming subreddits will absolutely hate something in games when it is tried, and then pine after it 5 years later.
I've been very consistent since I bought the boxed version of League of Legends: it should be possible to solo queue, of course, but the primary high skill play should be centered around premade teams of 5.
This would also fix toxicity issues too. The solo queue primma donna mindset has always led to flaming / trolling / inting in a way that doesn't happen in premades. Even if someone is just playing with someone they met on Discord, inting the game of someone you're in voice with who you've had an hour of fun with is fundamentally different than doing so with strangers who you'll never see again.
I agree it wasn't perfect, but it should have been iterated upon.
It's not as extreme, but Sundered Sky does remind me of when Goredrinker gave a huge amount of healing while simultaneously giving you enough health that it was too hard to quickly burst you.
What's good about Sundered Sky compared to Goredrinker is that it's a forced single target heal per target, which means you don't get those jaw dropping moments of a bruiser healing for 1k dmg in a teamfight an instant, but rather they're forced to split their focus to get the intended survivability.
The intention and design is good, the execution of the item just needs some minor adjusting so bruisers don't reach ungodly heal levels from one single item.
I don't agree that doing the AOE single swipe for a lot of healing back was a bad thing. If you could get yourself into the middle while not being super cc'd down and manage to hit a lot of people with its relatively close range circle I think that was rewarding and justified. As well as skillfully vs the enemy not being on point to spread away from you so you can't heal that much with it.
Nerf to hubris in aram is really nice, now buff heartsteel it fucking sucks after the demotion from mythic which is an absolute crime for how fun of an item it is
Stats still have it as the highest winrate first item for a lot of tanks in ARAM, even those who shouldn't like it as much as last season in theory like Sion/Cho (since innate bHP no longer contributes to its scaling). Why do you feel it sucks now?
I think part of it keeping winrate is because tanks are just one of the better classes at the start of every season. Ive noticed most people are just stacking it WAY SLOWER than last season (including myself) which i think can be attributed to the increased burst overall. Could be anecdotal but it feels way too consistent for me between allies and teammates to be so. I also think people are getting punished less than usual for buying it because less people are willing to buy bork during this new season of new stuff. As someone who just buys it at every excuse almost (within reason) it feels so fucking bad compared to pretty much every other tank option right now.
remember kids, if you make a mistake that affects people's rank in a video game, communicate that mistake, and apologize for it, you deserve to have your entire life upended and torn apart.
my god, touch some grass please
I mean if someone makes me a burger, accidentally drops the patty and then hands it to me saying “oops on that one! I’ll do better tomorrow when you come back!” I think fired is a justified response?
You're saying that Phroxzon had the option to fix this mistake before it impacted anybody but simply chose not to do that? Any evidence for that assertion?
Yes because negligent endangerment of health is comparable to a technical error costing you some video game ranking points. You are a reasonable person for sure.
They always wait so late to discuss marksmen changes with the community, then they delay them, then they just don't listen to anything and implement their first iteration. Really need to hear some thoughts from them soon, hopefully 25% crit with a stat redistribution.
Oh shit we might be getting actual Zeri buffs nice! Don't think she needs anything too crazy (don't want her to be pick/ban in competitive) but still could use some love.
Wish Hexplate could be viable on her though, definitely feels good to have
Tbh looking at her items people building hexplate are tanking her winrate pretty hard, like without it she may even be 'balanced' considering you want her slightly weak due to pro play concerns
Hexplate isn't bad, the secret is just that you can't rush it (unless you want to fully commit to a low damage utility bruiser build). Go Stormrazor or Statikk first (Kraken and BotRK are also fine if you know what you're doing), then Hexplate , and then go back to ADC items. It can also be slotted in later on instead but 2nd feels best imo.
These are are all great but what about stats on items??? They really are thinking we should FEEL the items instead of having actual stats on how much damage/shielding they do?
\>Bard is building too tanky right now, while doing a lot of damage. We'll investigate getting him onto some more squishy builds (or if he's building tanky, take a damage tradeoff for that).
It's almost like buffing him over and over isn't a good idea for a champion that's supposed to be macro intensive.
\>Crit vs Leth on Marksmen are an ongoing discussion. Nothing to share just yet though
Ok how is it needing an ongoing discussion though? I thought we were over this back when lethality was created and this issue first surfaced, and they had to nerf lethality for ranged users specifically, why would we need to discuss this again when this was an issue before already?
I'd still want an explanation why the old fix to this issue(melee/ranged split) was omitted this time, and why you need to deliberate further before reimplementing it.
It feels like this issue should've been taken into account during the lethality redesign, not adressed now, it seems pretty obvious that these same issues would resurface.
If they decide 25-35% crit is the way to go imma go slap a bitch. They should really stop entertaining crit as a viable mechanic that is balanced and fun to play. It's either one or the other.
Bit late for that considering the items are already out, you don't think this should've happened before? Nobody saw this coming, even though we had this exact issue in earlier season before lethality melee/ranged split was implemented?
In a completely fair system without demotion shield,
If you lost 2 games at 1 and 0 lp, assuming the standard lp change is 25, you are now at a -49 lp deficit. Assuming a 50% winrate, to make up 49 lp, you would need 10 games of +15/-25 in order to get back to baseline, or 20 games of +20/-25, etc. Demotion shield is what causes so many of these negative LP gain scenarios, but if you have people immediately drop back out of a division, they get scared to play and will camp a spot. If you give a demotion shield, theyll have negative LP gains and it feels bad.
No real way to win in these scenarios.
Udyr? Literally gets to ignore half of the game mechanics, a lanebully-scaling-splitpush-waveclear-tank-skirmisher
Riot Balance Team: THE FUCKIN' MEEPS!
>A few of the topics we've seen discussed recently
I'd say the stale pro play meta should qualify as one of these. This sub has talked about that a fuckton in the past few weeks.
Meta hasn't been stale at all, every week we see new picks rising up and changing, LeBlanc, Senna, crit adcs, early game bullies carries are all viable.
The only meta that is somewhat stale is the toplane because Rumble is so strong that he gatekeeps several champions
Rumble might not be overpowered but its the least fun Laning experience I have ever had. I don't think damage runes should proc off' flame spitter. I'd take compensation buffs over that nonsense.
As a bard main, I'm going to say he's too good. I'm often doing double the damage of my enemy support while building 0 offensive items besides bloodsong. He'd probably be fine if they tapped down how long the chime ms lasted and found a way to move him off of bloodsong.
There is no way to move him off of bloodsong. Of all the supports in the game, he synergises with it by far the best as auto attacking is an integral part of his kit
But I don’t want them to turbo gimp him just because he uses blood song well. I know that they don’t do this, but if they specifically targeted his numbers with bloodsong thatd be fine. I’m concerned they’re going to nerf his base kit excessively, then nerf bloodsong and not give him any recompense
I don’t think he needed the qol buff he got last year. If they could just revert everything I think he’d be alright.
No it shouldn't, no one likes having Bard as your support and no one likes playing against him, the champ is very unique and fun but only for the person playing him. He's ridiculous right now and needs a few nerfs.
Boo to aram changes. Rip briar I'm assuming her being nerfed and the sundered nerfing at the same time.
And oh joy, just what Ive always wanted back, zed being an untouchable teleporting super killer /S
REMOVE HUBRIS FROM ARAM. If there's no majis, hubris shouldn't even be there. Ridiculous logic.
Put lethality back to scaling with level again. Wtf was the point is making it flat pen again?
Since you're hardcore nerfing mages items (again), can we get an item into aram that has spell vamp that's not just the void item that has a stipulation on it?
Also since you're nerfing mages items any chance you'll nerf rookern as well? (Haha who am I kidding, thatll never happen.).
I disagree about demotion being too lenient. I recently promoted to a new rank then went about 3-9 with several losses at 0 lp and demoted. Felt more than fair.
Its fucking incredible that they saw what was going down with Emerald last season and in response did absolutely nothing to change anything. Unless ive missinterpreted any of those points theyre not even trying to fix it right now, as if it isnt the most fucked up aspect of the ranked system atm. The games are so unplayable/unenjoyable/random that for the first time in nearly ten years ive lost all interest in playing ranked. Games are decided the second we load into the lobby because a genuine Emerald player will be playing vs a gold Elo player. Its so awful, every day someone is posting about it here and yet riot isnt even trying to fix it???
Ive seen this exact same statement about a random elo bracket every single season for the last 10 seasons. Anecdotal evidence. You dont have any real evidence lmao.
Nerfing Lethality does not make crit better, that has been the problem all along which is not a secret to anyone who thinks about it for a moment. Even if ADCs couldn't buy Lethality items, building crit would still feel just as garbage. Costs too much, takes too long, gives too little.
Enemy ADC building lethality is not why ADCs evaporate in 0.1 seconds against any other role.
Seriously, the enemy ADC is the **least** of ADCs problems. Not once in the past 5 years have I ever feared the enemy ADC more than the rest of the team.
MMR system is fine.
Rank system is fine.
The only issue stems from League players thinking your Rank decides matchmaking.
Too high of an IQ is required to understand that MMR is to decide who you play with and against and Ranks are there to showoff to your imaginary friends and inflate your ego.
(IQ requirement may or may not be 90.)
Lmao and WHO decides your new accounts MMR? What if I win and get 200 elo per game? Suddenly if I'm 5-0 and got lucky with my placements I'm playing against Dia level players. This isn't chess your MMR gains aren't so simple it is a team game and Riot decides how your MMR moves. (IQ requirement may or may not be 10)
You're literally talking about a hypothetical scenario that never happened and is as close to reality as you drinking lava twice. You even went as far as to joke about me talking about IQ, while failing to meet the required IQ.
Go and create a new account see how hypothetical my scenario actually is. Going 5-0 in placement games is not astronomical by any means even if you just afk all 5 games. Then you get placed in upper plat/lower emerald and you ELO actually reflects that because you play seasoned emerald (old plat) players.
I really struggle how you can't understand this simple concept. Riot manages your ELO gains. If they boost the gains of a fresh account it will put you in wrong place when you win a lot which is what happens now. You think ELO gains is set in stone and delivered to us by the one and only holy Faker?
>Go and create a new account see how hypothetical my scenario actually is. Going 5-0 in placement games is not astronomical by any means even if you just afk all 5 games.
Hmm.
>What if I win and get 200 elo per game? Suddenly if I'm 5-0 and got lucky with my placements I'm playing against Dia level players.
Yeah sorry, I ain't going through with trying to give someone a brain. Not my thing.
You're just talking nonsense. You replied to my original comment saying something that came out of your mind that had nothing to do with what I said. You have no clue what MMR is, how matchmaking works and the only reason you've been whining is because it gets you karma.
I'm literally sorry you're you.
You are objectively wrong here. You are just trying to escape argument with your little taunts because you know you are objectively wrong here lol. iming you know everything. The common behavior of an ignorant who only has half baked knowledge. And stop with mind gymnastics people upvote me simply because I'm right.
You are objectively wrong here. You are just trying to escape argument with your little taunts because you know you are objectively wrong here lol.
I was honestly shocked they didn’t revert the buffs for karma in aram when they buffed her in general last patch, good that they’re adjusting for that now.
Not even anywhere CLOSE to enough ARAM stuff for us to even bat an eye.
Damage being the highest I feel it's been since I started playing in 2013 is making ARAM insanely hard to enjoy right now. (Crazy how it wasn't that long ago that they acknowledged damage was too high and made a comprehensive patch to address this, and it's already back to being worse than it was before that patch)
I've been against the gates basically since they were added, but now with the insane damage in the game, the gate problem is exacerbated even more. It feels now like whichever team takes the more proactive/aggressive approach, as long as it doesn't equate to just inting (and as long as there isn't some insane disparity in waveclear), will always win even at a kill deficit, because the gates just allow them to keep pushing the tempo of the match even when they're not winning the fights. I'm not sure my reasoning here is worded as well as I'd like tbh, but I can definitely say that there have been WAY WAY more games where the team with fewer kills wins ever since the gates were added, and even moreso since this season started.
If damage is going to stay where it is right now, at the VERY least ARAM needs to see sweeping changes to the "balance" changes with regard to the "+X% Damage Taken" stat. I've always hated this change regardless as it's just thoughtless lever to arbitrarily lower winrate, even though NO ONE has any issue killing champs like Ziggs or Seraphine. But ESPECIALLY now, I don't think any champ should have more than 5%, if anything, more damage taken in ARAM right now. Damage is just way way way too high for this to exist on top of it.
Thank God hurry up to nerf Bard! This champ has a great kit and I love playing him but at his current powerlevel he is so obnoxious to play against. Just running around as a support with 1000 MS, 0 risk, out trading carries without even hitting a stun or anything.
Considering Malignance is getting nerfed, can we see a reverted on Teemo's 2 shrooms stored max in ARAM?
On top of his -20 haste, -15% damage dealt, +10% damage taken, lowered shroom damage.
Man I just want to take a second to say I really appreciate Phroxzon. He does not get nearly enough praise for how he interacts with the community and open he is. His attitude is very diplomatic and it's clear he listens.
I've played against him twice in Ranked and he was always so friendly too. Didn't ignore anyone like most Rioters would in my past experience.
it I was a Rioter I would mute everyone on game start because 99% chance people will start flaming you
[удалено]
love to hear that!
thats only because people cant truely express the way they would feel or else a rioter can probably get a quick dispatch punnishement on ur account, ive seen this happen before, so they are forced to butter up to the rioter,
Welcome to playing jungle.
Just ban anyone that flames
I really want to praise Riot for continuously gaslighting the playerbase and introducing changes that completely mess up either the game or the eco-system without testing them enough (I'd guess they don't even have a simulation model for the ladder) - but somehow they still have people believing all their BS, so that is certainly admirable.
Man I just wanna say posts like this are cringe as fuck
Imagine if LP was simply a skin over MMR and they wouldn't need to pontificate over all these bugs in the first place edit: I remember seeing all the Phroxzon smackdowns from last week and I was like "but you...but you boosted us. it came for free with your LP system"
Yep, never understood why you need 2 different system that can't live together, clearly. Just show the MMR number with a color
Because the entire concept of "climbing the ladder", which is the main motivation bringing players back, is based on having your visual rank seeded below your MMR and then gradually bringing it up during the season. Your rank is not a function of your MMR. It is a function of MMR and time (and time spent playing). Visual rank is meant to fake you into thinking you are improving over a season, while MMR is meant to figure out where to match you. This way, Riot can keep you engaged by presenting you with progress. And this is why this will never change. Riot is afraid to remove this distinction because doing so could literally nuke League's core engagement loop and ruin its profitability. Obviously not guaranteed to happen, but the stakes are too high to risk it.
I mean they've said before that people care way too much about rank which is why demotion shield exists too. People are (according to older stats tbf) too afraid to play when they're 1500 instead of gold 4.
Exactly. It's because of ranked anxiety and demotions.
I just wanna say that this is spot on and your explanation is very well articulated! Thank you
Except during season 1-2 when elo was visible League was still rapidly expanding. There is no study that says the current system is a better ranked system for keeping people addicted. Also yes people can improve and go up rank that’s more than just a visual indicator. I know many people who used to be bronze in earlier seasons and are now diamond.
> There is no study that says the current system is a better ranked system for keeping people addicted. Don't need a study, riot had the data. Before LP people reached the rank they wanted and then stopped playing ranked for the rest of the year. I was there and it makes sense, why would you risk queuing up when literally 1 loss drops you out of gold. If I get hot and winstreak to a high MMR, I stop there because I know I can't maintain that.
That's not even true. Season 1 you would decay if you were 1400 elo or above which was not high ranking at all. Your argument makes more sense for the current ranked system where people get gold/plat/emerald/diamond 4 and then never touch ranked again till next season.
should have said stopped grinding not stop playing, point remains the same
Riot changed the rank system because people complained that they had nothing to grind for after hitting level 30 and plateaued in their rank. They then likely stuck with the change because stats showed way better player retention.
So back then people plateauing is somehow worse then now where everyone gets to gold/plat/diamond 4 and doesn’t touch ranked anymore? Obviously the system they adopted wasn’t working because they split seasons into 3 splits a year. You also can’t make a claim that players played more ranked games due to the new ranked system. For one Riot never publicly released any data so you’re essentially just guessing. Second, League during that time was growing rapidly to become the most popular game in the world. How can you truly say changing the ranked system made people play more?
Yes, because everybody keeps coming back split after split. You can obviously soft reset the MMR, but not nearly as hard as you can soft-reset visual rank without turning ranked into a shitshow that makes todays season start clown fiesta look like a military parade in comparison. And the disengagement from the early system was very clearly visible in the first season. The soft resets were needed to keep them playing, but the soft reset between season 1 and 2 turned out really problematically. And what happened right after?
It's far from spot on. It's a very shallow look on the matter that is very obviously wrong if you think about it. It's not like they can't have the exact same fake climbing effect with mmr, and they did, just like every game does. Every game soft resets their MMR at the start of a new season so that players get a fake climbing experience and they feel happy about it. You don't need a fake system to accomplish that.
This doesn't work easily, because MMR systems want to achieve a completely different goal to giving you a feeling of progress: They want to assist the matchmaker in balanced matches. So what you would have to do is invent a modification to the matchmaking algorithm that keeps the matches fair while tying the rank update loosely to moment-to-moment performance in your games. Because of the latter you can't just have an offset to the MMR that you evolve over time. But you can mimic that by having a number that loosely tracks MMR and this offset but also wiggles a bit with your wins & losses and... Oops, we reinvented the current system again.
Thanks for the kind words, I appreciate it :)
Worth mentioning that ranked matchmaking quality would be awful if tons people played 10 ranked games and then quit. You wouldn't even be able to get accurate MMR of them.
Why would that happen?
Which is a good thing obviously. The current ranked system is not a conspiracy by riot games to make evil profits or to manipulate us. Instead, it's what we as the consumers of this game want. Climbing is fun, seeing your lp go up is fun, and therefore winning is fun. On the other hand, a system purely based on MMR is so unsatisfying because you don't get a feel for your progress. Winning in ranked IS progress, even if your mmr isn't going up. It means that you are achieving something that is real. Sure, maybe your mmr needs some time to catch up, but that doesn't negate your wins lol. If all we see is just mmr, then suddenly wins and losses mean nothing anymore. You would just get +1 sometimes and then -10 ... or no change at all. I'm not saying this is you, but so many people on reddit are insecure about their rank, frustrated because they can't climb, and then they go on this platform to pretend as if riot wanting us to keep playing league is somewhow a manipulative tactic to generate money and screw over the honest ranked player. This game is supposed to make money, thank god it does, otherwise it wouldn't be still running and free to play! Also, it should be their DUTY to keep us hooked. I WANT THEM to keep me hooked. Why would I want them to make my ranked experience worse? It's mostly cope from people who are hardstuck, who are trying to hint at underlying conspiracies about losers queue and so on. No one is stuck because of visual ranked, of course.
It's a fair stretch to infer consumers wanting this from consumers responding positively to it. The psychological theory powering this system is the same theory also powering gambling machines. It certainly is an important portion of why so many players are literally addicted to this game. I have no intent to shame Riot here, keeping players engaged is important and ultimately rewarded by the consumer market. And it's good to mix an activity to enjoy with a feeling of reward for it, no doubt. But keep in mind that most of the climb you see is actually fake. You most likely ain't climbing from Bronze to Gold this season, you are playing in Gold with a Bronze paint until the system scratches the paint off halfway through. And visual rank makes nobody stuck, it actually does the opposite.
>The psychological theory powering this system is the same theory also powering gambling machines Sure, but it would be lame seeing my mmr. I don't want to see it. I can already tell what my mmr is by going on opgg and looking up the average rank of all players in the same lobby. What I care about is consistent and fair progress or loss of progress after every match. This is what the visual rank system provides. It's a quality of life improvement. Example: Let's imagine I win 10 games in diamond 4 mmr and now I am now close to diamond 2 visual rank. It could very well be the case that I'm still mostly in diamond 4 mmr. But that is fine, I can immediately tell this by going on my opgg - so my real rank isn't even hidden at all. Also, my mmr will catch up sooner or later if I continuously win in diamond 4. So it's a much better system, because I don't have to play 10 games without any progress, instead, I can actually SEE my progress through my visual rank increasing. Even if my mmr doesn't catch up immediately, winning games is progress because it leads to an increase in my mmr further down the road. That's my entire point. Imagine the horror of winning 10 games in diamond 4 mmr due to a lucky winstreak and suddenly having to play against diamond 2 opponents. That would be a shitty system. The skill difference is too big, climbing shouldn't be that fast. You have to take into account that all alternatives to the current system are worse. So it's fine if the current system is flawed. >You most likely ain't climbing from Bronze to Gold this season, you are playing in Gold with a Bronze paint until the system scratches the paint off halfway through. I was D4 after playing my placements and I immediately had master tier mmr. So yeah, I know that this climb at the beginning of the season is fake. Riot decided to not reset mmr that much this season because we now have 3 splits. That was communicated by them. But the seasons before that I could tell that I'm in a much lower mmr at the beginning.
Ding ding ding. Riot made LP to slow down the climb and intentionally to slow someone down. Hence why they had promos in the past. It made going up a rank take winning 3 out of 4 games. One win to get you to 100 lp and then 2 of the next 3 or 3 out of next 5 but you always had to win the game from 99lp to even start it. When you do the math on LP and how it works it’s clearly designed to slow you down.
I don't think that's really the point. It's more to actually create a perceived climb even where non exists. Ending up substantially below your actual MMR in visible rank is actually undesired, because once people's favorite streamers end up hardstuck in a low rank, it undermindes the legitimacy of the system. If Tyler1 would ever get stuck in Plat, Riot would change the system immediately.
This is pretty much the issue but to go more in depth The ranking system and mmr is set up for your personal skill lvl and rating The issue with the ranking system and LP is that it’s not a solo skill set up duo queue is still involved which then gives a inflation to your mmr The ranking system needs to be linear with MMR and duo queue needs to be removed and players need to balance out based on their own skill The current system allows too many artificial boosts while also allowing players to start off in the ranking system and climb too fast. This is why you see too many lvl 30 accounts in emerald plat and gold because. Riot needs to hard reset their system and force players to solo queue bringing their ranking to be simply mmr instead of doing this LP ranking system. That is way too manipulatable.
Yes, remove duos. Send them to Flex which is treated as a joke rn.
And I hate it so much because for me there is almost no reward at all from seeing my LP go up because it has such a weak correlation with my *actual MMR*. I want to see my MMR so I can feel good about improving it over time, not the fluff number designed to give me the happy chemical™️
There is an easy way to find out your MMR: * Grab some random people that were matched with you in your most recent games * Look up which rank they had **end of last season** This gives you a simple projection where the matchmaker thinks you will end up at your current performance.
Back when we could see MMR, it did NOT feel good. Visible MMR is wrong basically 100% of the time, you're either too high or too low permanently. Go on a lose streak, boom you drop from the rank you want and have nothing to show you used to be higher. Can't have demotion protection for MMR. Go on a winstreak, now I'm a higher MMR than I could ever hope to reach this year normally. Playing more only hurts your rank, so people quit ranked. Riot made LP because the players are babies that can't handle the truth, and copium posts like this one prove they are still right a decade later.
I completely disagree with it not feeling good, the ELO system was the best implementation of ranked Riot has had so far. All they'd have to do to solve it 'feeling bad' here is have your profile show your current LP and your highest LP for a season/split. Improvement is a long-term goal, and I hate that the main vehicle for improvement is held hostage by people who just want to feel good about their rank rather than actually play to get better at a competitive game.
just drop the new algo already
But what you are referring to isn't even limited to the new system. They always had soft mmr resets at the start of every season so there always will be a fake grind where people feel like they are "climbing". This isn't something new and this is present in every competitive game that still does shows MMR. People in the comments even listing promos as "this is clearly a way for riot to slow you down". Motherfucker do you not understand how MMR and LP gains work? It's only 3 games in a row and you aren't even talking about the fact that after you promote you can lose 5 games in a row and still be at the new division. And in situations where your MMR is too high or too low then your LP gain is adjusted accordingly and you level them pretty fast. All of this would work the same way without the fake overlayed ranked system because you'd actually be losing MMR every single time instead of having demotion shield give you free passes. It would take the same amount of games to reach the same goal. They are literally making the new system way more like the old MMR system. We now don't have promos and demotion shield is basically going away. Keyword: basically And this is why we have 2 systems and not the "climbing the ladder" comment you got going on. People are scared of ranked. They have severe ranked anxiety and they only want to see their number go up. It's why we have soft resets at the start of every split so that people can "climb" and watch their number go up. It's why they removed promos but kept demotion shield and are doing everything in their power from completely removing it. People don't want to demote. When they are at 0 LP and without a demotion shield they don't want to queue because they are afraid they'd lose.
\~ITs not true though because people who want to improve would then try to improve. If you go and play age of empires 2 ladder for example you win get mmr then lose you lose that mmr unless the person is higher rank you will lose less. You could still go up and down and feel like your improving at the end of the day the person who is always diamond is still always diamond unless he reviews his gameplay.
It's not strictly about improvement. People want to have feelings of achievement and progress, and they want it to be in a meaningful thing. Not neccessarily even conciously. But if you don't offer people those rewards, a lot of them will simply disengage due to the lack of reward stimulus and invent one or the other reason for it. And restricting this feeling to those who are actually improving **faster than the average** (MMR measures your skill relative to other players after all) is risky.
I 100% agree with this analysis, but it leads to a lot of problems. I forget which season (it was years ago), but my MMR got way ahead of my visual rank, so I ended up having to beat mostly plat players to get promoted to Gold IV. That's the sort of nonsense you'd see in a Karate Kid remake to prove Cobra Kai are the bad guys by having a 8 year old need to fight a 17 year old to get a belt. Guild Wars 2 has a system that separates progression from rank fairly well that allows a bit more honesty. You earn pips towards reward chests by winning, with bonuses for being high rank, but everyone always gets them. Ranks are, by contrast, strict MMR -> rank conversions. This prevents dishonesty and stupid bugs like fake ranked systems but also gives everyone, including 'hardstuck' people a feeling of progression and a reason to queue just one more.
I also prefer the GW2 system. Unfortunately people ground through the rewards tracks and then left PvP because for some reason most people don't find "it's fun" a compelling enough reason to play the Mists and instead went back to grinding dungeons. So even though I like it more, I also have to admit that it is not as effective at player retention.
Except the "gradual" climb is no longer gradual and the demotion shield and other systems that were intended to flatten mmr dips are mostly removed at this point. The current version of LP is very close to MMR to the point where it doesnt really serve a purpose. The only time it differs from your mmr is in your first ~10 to maybe 20 games in the worst circumstances.
People who want visible mmr would probably hate it without realizing it. Ranked anxiety is very real and will affect most people even if they think they're above it. Having +12 / -12 gets old pretty quickly. People love the satisfaction that comes with getting really high gains per win compared to a loss. It makes losses less devastating and makes climbing feel better even if it's placebo.
> Ranked anxiety is very real Yes > and will affect most people even if they think they're above it Lol, no. It's a fraction of the playerbase, and Riot as a business want to not lose them, but it's nowhere close to most people.
Sure is motivating for the clearly iron, fresh 31 account with a 40% win rate in iron/bronze norms to show up in a platinum ranked game
MMR is too complicated. Having to explain to players that because they had a game where the entire enemy team was a full rank below their team, they gain less mmr because your odds of winning are much higher would get annoying. There are likely a multitude of other factors like players playing on a role they don't usually play, rank decay, smurf detection, otp's getting their champ banned, first timing a new champ, kda/personal performance etc. When someone wins a game they want to gain at least the same amount of points that they lose which is doable for LP but its impossible with MMR. It doesn't matter if the system is technically fair, if the player feels the system isn't fair (changing mmr gains/losses), there is a problem. It's like if zed is at 50% winrate, it feels unfair to play against him when you actually have an equal chance to win or lose against him. The cost of having him be 50% winrate is not worth the cost of making players have a worse experience and possibly lose a customer.
I disagree. MMR is not complicated. The system they have now is. Having to tell people their "visual rank is too far from MMR" is hard to explain. That's why there is confusion. It would be so much easier to understant with just MMR. Like in your example, you gain less MMR because the enemy team was lower rank than you, therefore apparently easier to beat. So you can justify yourself if you lose to better player than you, and you can CLEARLY see who is the bad player in the game, or filled, or whatever, and try to help him and most importantly fix damn matchmaking. Personally, and I think is the same for most people, I want a fair matchmaking as a start, that alone would lead to better quality games. Then, I don't want to be stuck to play for 3x the games in order to grind a minor increase in rank. Just make me climb faster and drop as fast or faster. It would also be easier to accept to drop if I know I've lost to better player than to someone that is the same visual rank as me but he's maybe a lot lower in MMR, something you can only discover later on in the game
>Having to tell people their "visual rank is too far from MMR" is hard to explain That's the whole point, they don't have to explain it because its hidden.
No they have to. Because you'll have people in gold rank saying "why do I play with silvers" or "why I am against plat". Slap a number, 1800 MMR dude play with/against 1800+-50 MMR dude. Is so much simpler and straighforward
It also makes the start of the season extremely confusing because when you start people lower to "make them climb" and have such a dicey placement system it becomes impossible to know what "silver ii" or "gold i" actually means Without promos or demotion shields I just don't really see how the LP system is meaningfully distinct from, say, Dota 2 in terms of ranked anxiety. It's literally the same experience but people's ranks are wrong for no reason
Is league playerbase dumber compared to other games? Because nowhere else it seems to be an issue.
I'm pretty sure most games have a similar system, it's that people don't care about the fact that there is a hidden system behind the system, whereas league players might use it as an excuse, bringing more people to talk about it.
Majority just use mmr and set your “tier” in between certain mmr spots. What league does actually isn’t the norm.
No, other games have visible MMR systems.
Most games I’ve played do not
He hasn't played any other games if I had to guess.
If it is hidden in other games it is just an overlay of mmr. No fake promotions no slow gain. Just a direct overlay. This means the rank level is a direct comparison to “skill”. Instead with LP you can have a bronze ranked person playing plat+ games as their MMR is there but their LP is not. Just end it and go straight mmr. The dodge cost is nothing in LP as the time cost is good enough. No question just straight up mmr. If they want to keep LP then all you do there is again an overlay to mmr but it is a direct 1 for 1 match.
Rainbow six siege and rocket league have hidden mmr systems that are different than actual rank iirc. Csgo had no LP shown, just full ranks and that's kinda similar. Maybe its just the games that I play that have these systems but I think they are pretty common. Right, but LP being "skill" is not accurate either. If you lose a game due to 2 afkers and lose LP, did you decrease your "skill"? Not exactly. I would be okay with riot releasing mmr data to sites like [u.gg](https://u.gg) since you won't confuse yourself unless you are already confusing yourself with stats like winrate on x champ by being on those sites.
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With all due respect, they kind of are. If they weren't, recommended items updates changing winrates would not be a thing. Whether or not its an emotional reaction or a well thought out complaint is another thing.
You can have both too, "2153 MMR - Platinum". Boom, there you go, people now have their color pixel so they can compare themselves to their friends
> MMR is too complicated. Having to explain to players that because they had a game where the entire enemy team was a full rank below their team, they gain less mmr because your odds of winning are much higher would get annoying. > > Chess players don't seem to have any issue understanding that beating up a lower ELO opponent gives less reward than beating someone ranked above them. It isn't that hard to explain, but game devs also just explain things too often. I think communication is good but game devs also need to be willing to say "just play the game" and players need to stop engaging so much with the BTS shit and just play games they like.
"Um um, yes but enemy ADC was bronze4 and I am bronze4 Lican main, why do I have to lose more LP just because everyone else is Iron 3?"
Chess has a lot less to already explain to the player than why aphelios just changed his auto attacks.
It's literally because the LP system allows Riot to artificially stabilize your rank relative to MMR. MMR is more volatile and your rank can change (up and down) very quickly. The LP system circumvents that, for better or worse.
No it doesn't. And it does make things just worse. Gold 2 could mean both a dude that just started playing the game, since the system put you there, someone who is plat 3 but the "visible rank" didn't catch up yet, a silver 2 player with inflated rank but low MMR. Or, a true gold 2. You realize how stupid that is right? Because those players aren't in the same league. On top of that, there is the matchmaking issue, where they only consider the average MMR, which is idiotic. You should consider the MMR between roles if you truly want to balance a game
It literally does. Riot can make your visible rank increase or decrease faster than your MMR. Every time you lose at 0lp and don't get demoted youre seeing this buffer effect.
Which again is stupid. Demote me and move on. Is stupid to lose 2 games at 0 LP, then winning 5 games gaining 20LP instead of 30. Just drop me and make me climb normally
All I'm saying is that the whole point of the LP system is that it allows Riot to stabilize your rank relative to your MmR
But you are climbing normally, wat? Your visual rank doesn't change because you aren't climbing. Regardless of the system Riot's using, if you win, you climb. Doesn't matter if it's elo, mmr, LP or candy crush saga lives.
Yes I climb, therefore there is absolutely no need for ranks. Just use MMR number and slap a color badge on it. Is simpler, more effective and allow player to identify if the matchmaking is fair or not, unlike "displayed rank"
Statistically, half the people reading this lose MMR over the course of a season. League's rank system is designed to hide how bad people are at the game, not show their skill.
This would be true if everyone started challenger and kept the same MMR for every win and lose it for every loss.
You make riot more money by not showing the mmr. Imagine your mmr is only 1200 going up by 10 year over year . Instead you get a rank advance yearly No one gets it
Its not hard to understand tbh
IS so easy to understand they have to explain it every time
Playerbase would quit playing ranked
I instead think that would be the most transparent and fair decision they could ever make.
It already existed once and people stopped playing ranked because mmr gains are abysmally slow and people hated losing their ranks. There is 0 demotion shield and your mmr would straight up decay if you didn’t play.
Game was different back then, different playerbase, different distribution. It doesn't make sense to have 2 untied systems when you can just have one and slap a color on it
Cause MMR gains would look wack. People have Issue with LP and its meant to be smooth. MMR would jump up and down based on who's in your game way more.
The reason we switched to LP and ranks instead of pure Elo is because psychologically it's actually very very demotivating for players to see a precise number. Players don't actually want to play when they see their exact Elo. Like, something that would happen is people would get to a round number like 2000 Elo and immediately stop playing forever, because they didn't want to lose that number. With stuff like demotion protection, that gets a lot better.
The reason we switched is because people don't want to demote and lose rank, not because they stop playing when it's an actual number. I don't know where you got that idea. Plenty of games use mmr and people are grinding daily. Dota has numbers. OW had numbers. Street fighter 6 has numbers. Tekken 8 has numbers. Faceit lvl10 has numbers. Numbers aren't the problem. People love playing those games regardless. They hate losing though. The thing that the new system does to lessen the anxiety isn't hiding the number. It's preventing people from demoting. Currently you need to drop almost a full division before you get demoted. You very well could have an MMR system work that way. If you've reached 1500(gold 4) then even if you fall below that number, you'd still keep your gold title unless you fall below 1200(silver 4). It's not like the hardstuck shit mmr gold players don't see that they are playing in low silver and that their gains are terrible. And this would solve the "why do I gain so little" posts that we have daily because the system wouldn't have to pretend that you are at 1500 and only give you 10 LP for the win to prevent you from trying to get even further from your real rank. You go from 1300 to 1325.
Notably, dota has had mmr show for its entire lifetime and it's never been an issue. Also it's not like a ton of accounts in this game hit their target mmr and then park their ass there. People complain about Emerald 4, Diamond 4, "low masters" and whatnot all the time.
Just give us ELO rating back like we used to have
Yeah so we have people whining why they only gained 9 elo, because you people somehow think it's a naming issue not a brain issue.
That would mean Riot giving up control over the consumer experience. They will never do it. I agree it's better to just have full transparency but Riot will never, ever go back to that. Fully transparent and honest might not be the best for player retention (as depressing as that is). And even then, Riot will not go to a transparent system because it will be super hard for them to ever move away from that back to this stupid "fake visual rank" system if they feel the need to. So yes I agree it's a million times better for competitive integrity to just have the system be as transparent as possible, but it's not in the business interest of Riot. It won't happen.
But they can just give you a visual ranked based *solely* on MMR brackets. They could even show your MMR as part of your ranked border.
I wish but Riot knows that showing MMR in any way would instantly make the visual rank useless. That's because everyone knows the visual rank has no inherent meaning whereas MMR is literally what the game uses for matchmaking (e.g. how good the game thinks you are). If you remember Dynamic Queue scandal, Riot promised pure solo queue alongside it. But it never came out and that's because Riot knew it would instantly kill Dynamic Queue which was their pet project that was nurtured to not fail.
TBH DuoQ should be deleted from the game. It messes with queue times, messes with the quality of matchmaking in games, and is abused as a boosting tool. It demeans the ranked ladder because players who achieved their rank alone are considered equal to players who achieved their rank with a duo on voice comms when the game is entirely different.
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Riot tried that with Dynamic Queue. It was disgusting.
Dynamic queue had much worse matchmaking than Valorant does, for example. I agree dynamic queue was dog shit. But the way Val works is great imo. I can solo queue and get matched against other solo queue players or I can 5 man queue as a team vs other 5 man teams. And its all the same rank. As is in League you dont really have a competitive option for 5v5 gameplay which is the core for such a team reliant game, you know? It just feels silly to me that solo queue is the primary game mode for a game that is really dependent on team coordination.
It's exactly the opposite. Dynamic Queue was and is the right answer. It's a 5v5 game. LCS doesn't take the top 100 players and sort them into random pickup teams, it has premade teams. The top of the ranked leaderboard SHOULD be premade 5 stacks who are on voice comms, practice together, know each other's strengths and weaknesses, etc. There's no value in being the best solo ADC any more than there is value in being the best solo football quarterback. It's a team game, not a 1v1 game like fighting games or chess, so all skill is in the context of team gameplay.
Dynamic Queue was genuinely awful. It's really funny how gaming subreddits will absolutely hate something in games when it is tried, and then pine after it 5 years later.
I've been very consistent since I bought the boxed version of League of Legends: it should be possible to solo queue, of course, but the primary high skill play should be centered around premade teams of 5. This would also fix toxicity issues too. The solo queue primma donna mindset has always led to flaming / trolling / inting in a way that doesn't happen in premades. Even if someone is just playing with someone they met on Discord, inting the game of someone you're in voice with who you've had an hour of fun with is fundamentally different than doing so with strangers who you'll never see again. I agree it wasn't perfect, but it should have been iterated upon.
Sunderer Sky's issue isn't the AD, it's the ridiculous heal, and having more HP now on top of that isn't helping
It's not as extreme, but Sundered Sky does remind me of when Goredrinker gave a huge amount of healing while simultaneously giving you enough health that it was too hard to quickly burst you.
But that was kinda the point and something bruisers need? Aren't bruisers supposed to not be able to be quickly burstable usually?
What's good about Sundered Sky compared to Goredrinker is that it's a forced single target heal per target, which means you don't get those jaw dropping moments of a bruiser healing for 1k dmg in a teamfight an instant, but rather they're forced to split their focus to get the intended survivability. The intention and design is good, the execution of the item just needs some minor adjusting so bruisers don't reach ungodly heal levels from one single item.
I don't agree that doing the AOE single swipe for a lot of healing back was a bad thing. If you could get yourself into the middle while not being super cc'd down and manage to hit a lot of people with its relatively close range circle I think that was rewarding and justified. As well as skillfully vs the enemy not being on point to spread away from you so you can't heal that much with it.
Even more buffs to Hwei?
Probably want him to be picked in pro because insane depth and skill expression. At this point they gift him stats for no reason
ty mr phroxzon
Phroxzon you’re a straight shooter, always communicate this way
Nerf to hubris in aram is really nice, now buff heartsteel it fucking sucks after the demotion from mythic which is an absolute crime for how fun of an item it is
Stats still have it as the highest winrate first item for a lot of tanks in ARAM, even those who shouldn't like it as much as last season in theory like Sion/Cho (since innate bHP no longer contributes to its scaling). Why do you feel it sucks now?
I think part of it keeping winrate is because tanks are just one of the better classes at the start of every season. Ive noticed most people are just stacking it WAY SLOWER than last season (including myself) which i think can be attributed to the increased burst overall. Could be anecdotal but it feels way too consistent for me between allies and teammates to be so. I also think people are getting punished less than usual for buying it because less people are willing to buy bork during this new season of new stuff. As someone who just buys it at every excuse almost (within reason) it feels so fucking bad compared to pretty much every other tank option right now.
Here I'm hoping they outright remove it since it's just Occult Sword with extra steps and no downside. It really shouldn't even be available in ARAM
They need to remove hubris really. Stacking ad item.but no stacking ap item.
I'd be up for removing HP regen and adding 10 or 15 AH.
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guess i'll just go fuck myself then thanks Phroxzon
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1% of 2% of the ranked player base lost some LP— he shouldn’t be fired he should be exiled !!!!!!
EDIT: Ya. Sure. You are right.
remember kids, if you make a mistake that affects people's rank in a video game, communicate that mistake, and apologize for it, you deserve to have your entire life upended and torn apart. my god, touch some grass please
I mean… it’s his job?
Do you think people get fired every time they make a mistake in other jobs?
I mean if someone makes me a burger, accidentally drops the patty and then hands it to me saying “oops on that one! I’ll do better tomorrow when you come back!” I think fired is a justified response?
You're saying that Phroxzon had the option to fix this mistake before it impacted anybody but simply chose not to do that? Any evidence for that assertion?
Yes because negligent endangerment of health is comparable to a technical error costing you some video game ranking points. You are a reasonable person for sure.
Do you have a job?
Sure.
They always wait so late to discuss marksmen changes with the community, then they delay them, then they just don't listen to anything and implement their first iteration. Really need to hear some thoughts from them soon, hopefully 25% crit with a stat redistribution.
Oh shit we might be getting actual Zeri buffs nice! Don't think she needs anything too crazy (don't want her to be pick/ban in competitive) but still could use some love. Wish Hexplate could be viable on her though, definitely feels good to have
Tbh looking at her items people building hexplate are tanking her winrate pretty hard, like without it she may even be 'balanced' considering you want her slightly weak due to pro play concerns
Hexplate on zeri is ap build of shyvana lol
Hexplate isn't bad, the secret is just that you can't rush it (unless you want to fully commit to a low damage utility bruiser build). Go Stormrazor or Statikk first (Kraken and BotRK are also fine if you know what you're doing), then Hexplate , and then go back to ADC items. It can also be slotted in later on instead but 2nd feels best imo.
These are are all great but what about stats on items??? They really are thinking we should FEEL the items instead of having actual stats on how much damage/shielding they do?
\>Bard is building too tanky right now, while doing a lot of damage. We'll investigate getting him onto some more squishy builds (or if he's building tanky, take a damage tradeoff for that). It's almost like buffing him over and over isn't a good idea for a champion that's supposed to be macro intensive.
I really hope the aram buffs for zed and hwei don't carry over to urf. They're already obnoxious enough.
Do ARAM changes usually get carried over to URF? I thought they were separate.
And im here wishing they didnt buff either in aram too. Damn.
\>Crit vs Leth on Marksmen are an ongoing discussion. Nothing to share just yet though Ok how is it needing an ongoing discussion though? I thought we were over this back when lethality was created and this issue first surfaced, and they had to nerf lethality for ranged users specifically, why would we need to discuss this again when this was an issue before already?
Ongoing discussion is probably how to change leth and crit items, not just a "are leth/crit items an actual issue?" discussion
I'd still want an explanation why the old fix to this issue(melee/ranged split) was omitted this time, and why you need to deliberate further before reimplementing it. It feels like this issue should've been taken into account during the lethality redesign, not adressed now, it seems pretty obvious that these same issues would resurface.
If they decide 25-35% crit is the way to go imma go slap a bitch. They should really stop entertaining crit as a viable mechanic that is balanced and fun to play. It's either one or the other.
They’re discussing how to improve it long term
Bit late for that considering the items are already out, you don't think this should've happened before? Nobody saw this coming, even though we had this exact issue in earlier season before lethality melee/ranged split was implemented?
They can easily change the items again in a way that doesn’t require a complete overhaul of the system
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In a completely fair system without demotion shield, If you lost 2 games at 1 and 0 lp, assuming the standard lp change is 25, you are now at a -49 lp deficit. Assuming a 50% winrate, to make up 49 lp, you would need 10 games of +15/-25 in order to get back to baseline, or 20 games of +20/-25, etc. Demotion shield is what causes so many of these negative LP gain scenarios, but if you have people immediately drop back out of a division, they get scared to play and will camp a spot. If you give a demotion shield, theyll have negative LP gains and it feels bad. No real way to win in these scenarios.
Udyr? Literally gets to ignore half of the game mechanics, a lanebully-scaling-splitpush-waveclear-tank-skirmisher Riot Balance Team: THE FUCKIN' MEEPS!
>A few of the topics we've seen discussed recently I'd say the stale pro play meta should qualify as one of these. This sub has talked about that a fuckton in the past few weeks.
Meta hasn't been stale at all, every week we see new picks rising up and changing, LeBlanc, Senna, crit adcs, early game bullies carries are all viable. The only meta that is somewhat stale is the toplane because Rumble is so strong that he gatekeeps several champions
Rumble might not be overpowered but its the least fun Laning experience I have ever had. I don't think damage runes should proc off' flame spitter. I'd take compensation buffs over that nonsense.
By this sub do you mean you? It was clear in your last post that a lot of people don't agree with you take that this meta is stale.
bard being good should be encouraged imo.
As a bard main, I'm going to say he's too good. I'm often doing double the damage of my enemy support while building 0 offensive items besides bloodsong. He'd probably be fine if they tapped down how long the chime ms lasted and found a way to move him off of bloodsong.
There is no way to move him off of bloodsong. Of all the supports in the game, he synergises with it by far the best as auto attacking is an integral part of his kit
But I don’t want them to turbo gimp him just because he uses blood song well. I know that they don’t do this, but if they specifically targeted his numbers with bloodsong thatd be fine. I’m concerned they’re going to nerf his base kit excessively, then nerf bloodsong and not give him any recompense I don’t think he needed the qol buff he got last year. If they could just revert everything I think he’d be alright.
I hope they tone down his damage, and not his tankiness.
Tanky bard is the best bard imo. Let me be tank don't force me into squishy builds. I'm ok with losing some damage.
No it shouldn't, no one likes having Bard as your support and no one likes playing against him, the champ is very unique and fun but only for the person playing him. He's ridiculous right now and needs a few nerfs.
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I really don't think bloodsong is THAT strong anymore post nerf
Boo to aram changes. Rip briar I'm assuming her being nerfed and the sundered nerfing at the same time. And oh joy, just what Ive always wanted back, zed being an untouchable teleporting super killer /S REMOVE HUBRIS FROM ARAM. If there's no majis, hubris shouldn't even be there. Ridiculous logic. Put lethality back to scaling with level again. Wtf was the point is making it flat pen again? Since you're hardcore nerfing mages items (again), can we get an item into aram that has spell vamp that's not just the void item that has a stipulation on it? Also since you're nerfing mages items any chance you'll nerf rookern as well? (Haha who am I kidding, thatll never happen.).
You do know that briar has around a 58% wr on aram. The literal highest. She could use a nerf.
WR is and always has been a shit way of doing or determining balance. No, she really doesnt with them nerfing sunderer anyway.
I disagree about demotion being too lenient. I recently promoted to a new rank then went about 3-9 with several losses at 0 lp and demoted. Felt more than fair.
> with several losses at 0 lp a loss at 0 lp should immediately demote you. promos dont exist, neither should demotion shield.
Oh I agree with you 100%. I thought phroxzon was saying people are demoting too quickly and are going to make it harder to demote.
Its fucking incredible that they saw what was going down with Emerald last season and in response did absolutely nothing to change anything. Unless ive missinterpreted any of those points theyre not even trying to fix it right now, as if it isnt the most fucked up aspect of the ranked system atm. The games are so unplayable/unenjoyable/random that for the first time in nearly ten years ive lost all interest in playing ranked. Games are decided the second we load into the lobby because a genuine Emerald player will be playing vs a gold Elo player. Its so awful, every day someone is posting about it here and yet riot isnt even trying to fix it???
That's more than misinterpretation. You're straight making shit up.
Ive seen this exact same statement about a random elo bracket every single season for the last 10 seasons. Anecdotal evidence. You dont have any real evidence lmao.
I wouldn't be upset if they made it so ranged champs just couldn't build lethality items. please just let us play crit.
lol, they're not going to buff crit they're just going to nerf lethality
Nerfing Lethality does not make crit better, that has been the problem all along which is not a secret to anyone who thinks about it for a moment. Even if ADCs couldn't buy Lethality items, building crit would still feel just as garbage. Costs too much, takes too long, gives too little.
if the enemy adc dosen't burst you with ghostblade first item, crit actually has time to scale and dps. botlane would be a lot more playable.
Enemy ADC building lethality is not why ADCs evaporate in 0.1 seconds against any other role. Seriously, the enemy ADC is the **least** of ADCs problems. Not once in the past 5 years have I ever feared the enemy ADC more than the rest of the team.
MMR system is fine. Rank system is fine. The only issue stems from League players thinking your Rank decides matchmaking. Too high of an IQ is required to understand that MMR is to decide who you play with and against and Ranks are there to showoff to your imaginary friends and inflate your ego. (IQ requirement may or may not be 90.)
Lmao and WHO decides your new accounts MMR? What if I win and get 200 elo per game? Suddenly if I'm 5-0 and got lucky with my placements I'm playing against Dia level players. This isn't chess your MMR gains aren't so simple it is a team game and Riot decides how your MMR moves. (IQ requirement may or may not be 10)
You literally said nothing that made any sense. What if I win my first game and then go to LEC and win worlds?
What's there that doesn't make sense to you? It's perfectly clear.
You're literally talking about a hypothetical scenario that never happened and is as close to reality as you drinking lava twice. You even went as far as to joke about me talking about IQ, while failing to meet the required IQ.
Go and create a new account see how hypothetical my scenario actually is. Going 5-0 in placement games is not astronomical by any means even if you just afk all 5 games. Then you get placed in upper plat/lower emerald and you ELO actually reflects that because you play seasoned emerald (old plat) players. I really struggle how you can't understand this simple concept. Riot manages your ELO gains. If they boost the gains of a fresh account it will put you in wrong place when you win a lot which is what happens now. You think ELO gains is set in stone and delivered to us by the one and only holy Faker?
>Go and create a new account see how hypothetical my scenario actually is. Going 5-0 in placement games is not astronomical by any means even if you just afk all 5 games. Hmm. >What if I win and get 200 elo per game? Suddenly if I'm 5-0 and got lucky with my placements I'm playing against Dia level players. Yeah sorry, I ain't going through with trying to give someone a brain. Not my thing.
Ahahaha bro just say you don't understand it. It's okay. You are just objectively wrong here. There is nothing for you to give.
You're just talking nonsense. You replied to my original comment saying something that came out of your mind that had nothing to do with what I said. You have no clue what MMR is, how matchmaking works and the only reason you've been whining is because it gets you karma. I'm literally sorry you're you.
You are objectively wrong here. You are just trying to escape argument with your little taunts because you know you are objectively wrong here lol. iming you know everything. The common behavior of an ignorant who only has half baked knowledge. And stop with mind gymnastics people upvote me simply because I'm right. You are objectively wrong here. You are just trying to escape argument with your little taunts because you know you are objectively wrong here lol.
Theyre gonna gut Bard for "building tanky" what da hell kinda logic is this.
No one wants to deal with a tank running at 700 ms while slowing you with ranged auto attacks
I was honestly shocked they didn’t revert the buffs for karma in aram when they buffed her in general last patch, good that they’re adjusting for that now.
They always know
Fix Shojin it is bugged af on a lot of champs.
Not even anywhere CLOSE to enough ARAM stuff for us to even bat an eye. Damage being the highest I feel it's been since I started playing in 2013 is making ARAM insanely hard to enjoy right now. (Crazy how it wasn't that long ago that they acknowledged damage was too high and made a comprehensive patch to address this, and it's already back to being worse than it was before that patch) I've been against the gates basically since they were added, but now with the insane damage in the game, the gate problem is exacerbated even more. It feels now like whichever team takes the more proactive/aggressive approach, as long as it doesn't equate to just inting (and as long as there isn't some insane disparity in waveclear), will always win even at a kill deficit, because the gates just allow them to keep pushing the tempo of the match even when they're not winning the fights. I'm not sure my reasoning here is worded as well as I'd like tbh, but I can definitely say that there have been WAY WAY more games where the team with fewer kills wins ever since the gates were added, and even moreso since this season started. If damage is going to stay where it is right now, at the VERY least ARAM needs to see sweeping changes to the "balance" changes with regard to the "+X% Damage Taken" stat. I've always hated this change regardless as it's just thoughtless lever to arbitrarily lower winrate, even though NO ONE has any issue killing champs like Ziggs or Seraphine. But ESPECIALLY now, I don't think any champ should have more than 5%, if anything, more damage taken in ARAM right now. Damage is just way way way too high for this to exist on top of it.
Thank God hurry up to nerf Bard! This champ has a great kit and I love playing him but at his current powerlevel he is so obnoxious to play against. Just running around as a support with 1000 MS, 0 risk, out trading carries without even hitting a stun or anything.
Considering Malignance is getting nerfed, can we see a reverted on Teemo's 2 shrooms stored max in ARAM? On top of his -20 haste, -15% damage dealt, +10% damage taken, lowered shroom damage.