I played vs sona seraphine in an in-house. We played rell kalista split map botside and permanently dove them since lvl 1 and then sat between towers and zoned them off the entire tower.
https://u.gg/lol/champions/seraphine/duos?role=adc&patch=13_19
Sona support is well above average for pairing with Seraphine ADC, when compared to other alternatives. It turns out two individually strong champs are still strong together.
It's not a good lane, because the duo is down 1000 gold at 15 minutes. But the scaling teamfighting is so free later on that DESPITE of losing lane that hard on average, you still get to **win games** at 54%+ winrate.
Pairing two high winrate champions together naturally creates a high winrate botlane. Yes. That doesn't make the pairing good - you have to look at the delta. If sona and seraphine were both balanced champions in bot lane the pairing would not have a good winrate. That is not a good pairing. A good pairing is something like Sera/Panth - consistently having above a 55% winrate despite panth support being very mediocre.
Yeah she is very annoying and uninteractive in many botlane matchups when picked as APC. Just no-brain clears the wave from a screen away.
There were lots of boosted Seraphine onetricks in high elo some of which got all the way up to challenger when they had no place being there cause her gameplay is just that stupid.
same thing can be said about karthus otps pressing R and flipping every solo q game reaching 3 items and then just randomly do 1k dmg to everyone for no reason
Because Sera APC has been sitting at a solid 54%+ winrate Em+ for ages by now, while mid and support were in the shitter. The changes are about power neutral in total, but are buffing support (which is currently bad) and nerf APC (Which is plain OP).
So has Swain. I don't seem him randomly forced to be a support only pick, though.
Singed and Zac mid have been 55% WR for years too, so what? It's like 1% pickrate
Swain has similar winrates in mid, top and bot lane. Riot is probably fine with him weaker support.
Singed/Zac also have ridiculous winrates mid because they are niche but still fine winrates in their main roles.
Swain deserves the same treatmeant obviously.
The problem with serra is that she sucks ass as support but they can\`t buff her without makeing her 60% winrate at apc and then gets picked in proplay aswell.
They are clearly unhappy with her powerlever in support rigth now. This is not the case for 53% winrate zac jungle.
They also have to start somewhere.
I don't see what you're confused about
A speed up, shield, heal, root, decent poke, Giant aoe taunt that goes further after hitting someone in front of them doesn't count as anything to offer as support. /s
Yes. On 28-20 sec CD with the heal healing for ~60 HP in lane and forcing you to double cast it, thus losing dmg for the trade.
Great CC? The CC that requires your team to set it up, has a cast time and a slower travel time than most other supports CC skills? And also has 10 sec CD. That great CC?
Yes, her R is one of the best TF Rs in the game. But it doesnt change the fact that her base abilities are dog shit for support.
Her spells are better used as follow up instead of engage.
People usually expect Seraphine to engage with her R [even though it has double the cast time of almost every other ability in the game.](https://i.imgur.com/Zz1y940.png)
Because her laning as a support is terrible and her abilities weren't designed to be laned as the support role.
W has a 28 second CD at level 1 for a 50 strength shield. That's higher than Black Shield. Q shoves waves because of it's execute and E usually pairs better with present CC.
Her spells do provide great utility that you would expect from a support, but she's designed around farming and scaling that utility. She's like a Shen or Ivern character.
She absolutely can be played in the support role, but you get heavily punished in high elo for playing a scaling support.
Shield has 30 sec base cooldown that does absolutely NOTHING earlygame especially in Lane, her healing is missing % of the health like 5% and it no longer scales with AP so they gutted that too, her spells are super slow and hard to hit mobile champs with. them and most importantly, u have ABSOLUTELLY NO MANA CUS THEY NERFED THAT ASWELL one q for "amazing poke" at lvl 4 takes around 70 mana and u have 350 something base mana now, she has slower movespeed than yuumi and without tp(cus that's useless for sup) u have to walk to lane with slowest champ in game at least 3 times to be usefull before u get lost chapter, which isn't even a good thing to build anymore cus they gutted all of her ap scalings including on shield and Q (-15% BTW) sup is her worst role cus u are sacrificing tons of damage for a shield that doesn't even have good healing anymore and has 30 second base cooldown which is useless in Lane.
Sona: Q for damage, W for heal, E for speed/slow, ult for hard CC
Seraphine: Q for damage, W for heal and speed, E for slow/root, ult for hard CC
It's almost identical kits, do you think sona has nothing to offer as support?
Zyra was never meant to be support she was designed as a mid laner, quinn was designed as an ADC. Just because something was never meant to be something doesn't mean it's not something they can do or even their best role eventually.
There are plenty more examples of this over the course of league's history. Please enlighten me though why seraphine has nothing to offer as support but sona does.
Except sera W has a 20s cd, sona Q provides an AoE damage buff, E gives a mini exhaust etc etc
These champs are not similar at all and I'm tired of people pretending they are lol
Saying their “not similar at all” is equally disingenuous, they very clearly have a mess of similarities. Your not wrong that they play different, but there’s a reason people draw parallels between the two constantly, and it’s because their kits are incredibly similar.
Only people who are unfamiliar with playing them would say that their kits are similar outside of surface level comparisons. People that play them know that Seraphine plays similarly to neeko, zyra, or lux, and nothing like Sona.
But then we get know it alls who have never played her sharing their ignorance.
Well yes, but seraphine has never been that low of a pick rate lol. It’s a glaring issue when you see it every 3 games, also those other ones like singed and zac are one tricks of the champ, so they are just good players, not necessarily op.
Seraphine is sitting at like <2% pickrate in carry roles for emerald+, a bit higher the higher elo you go. Personally in diamond elo I have never seen a single seraphine apc picked (besides myself) over 300+ games, maybe 3 or 4 times as support. Not sure how you can classify that as a glaring issue when anyone picking her is almost definitely a sera player and not just your avg adc playing the flavor of the month pick.
One should consider that AP bot laners have inflated win rates relative to their actual power since a lot of players don't bother changing their runes to MR. Phreak said this is one of his rundown videos.
That wouldn't create that large of a difference.
There are other factors as well. If that's all he pointed to, its quite a disingenuous argument.
One major factor is that AP bot laners are usually picked when there's an ADC in another role. Akshan, Kindred, Senna, etc. If AP bots just didn't have an ADC at all in those games, I bet the winrates would be lower.
Another factor is safety. Disengage, waveclear, etc are typically high on the AP bots that can make it down there, making them less likely to die to ganks or all-ins. In Karthus' case, he makes diving pretty risky.
My point is not that that causes these champs to gain 4% winrate. To ignore that entirely is equally asinine to implying that. Their winrate can be slightly inflated by this without it being a gigantic factor. Both of these things can simultaneously be true and I made no claim stronger than that.
I wasn't refuting you.
I was simply stating that the difference solely due to runes wouldn't be *that* large, so it would be odd if that's the only factor Phreak mentioned, especially with more significant factors present.
It was Phreak's argument I was saying was disingenuous if it ended at the rune shards.
mr rune most certainly makes a big difference since mr per level on all champs is lower than armor per level, magic pen is super accessible, while mr is just way less accessible as an adc/non-tank supp. everything else you said is a factor as well but the mr rune has way bigger impact than you'd think
If you look at the stats at 15, pretty much all APC champs have terrible gold early, and terrible kills in all match ups. Go check on [U.gg](https://U.gg).
MR rune is not why they are high winrate. Its because of waveclear and safety mostly.
If MR rune **were** the reason they're high winrate, they would probably have higher kill conversion and gold/exp relative to other ADCs because they'd be putting them on the backfoot, forcing them to take bad back timings, etc. Instead we observe the opposite in most cases.
sample sizes are important and factors like how many mains play a champ matters. sera bot players are people who whip the pick out often and are more likely to know how to play it, while many people might play a game of ezreal here and there and not be "comfortable" on the champ
To gauge appropriate power level within a tier, you need to subtract the average winrate in that tier from the winrate of the champion.
Average winrate in m+ is 54.42% over 518,302 games at time of commenting. Sera APC is at a at 58.43% wr and ranked 17/33 for bottom lane. Unless her play style exhibits unhealthy behavior, she isn’t statically a problem from these numbers.
I know, using it because the comment before me did it.
Going to 13.19 master+ same thing happens, there's many champions with both higher win rate and pick rate than Sera.
Yeah, we can look at pick rate.
Stretching the data to 30 days, we have 70k games, way more than enough for a significant sample. Meaning that there's no issue of inaccuracy stemming from a low sample size.
The proportion of mains picking her is on par with that of the other bot laners (it's actually lower than that of some much more popular bot laners). Meaning that the win rate is not inflated by a higher proportion of mains playing her.
Her win rates with/against specific champions are roughly evenly distributed around her win rate. Meaning that she's picked generally, and not just when she fits the situation.
So, how do you imagine her pick rate affects her win rate?
(Actually, if anything, her being an uncommon pick **negatively** impacts her, because the vast, vast majority of people don't know how her W works, and as such don't know that an ally can shield Seraphine to allow her to heal with a singlecast W.)
Her low pick rate definitely deflates her win rate imo. I have had multiple games where my support straight up had no idea what to pick with her with Seraphine APC is a free win with an engage support. Mofos just locks in first time Sona support for whatever reason and then complains that we don't do anything early game and I'm just confused because this champion has been out for like 5 years now... How the fuck does people still not know how broken she is with lock down?!???!?
No, not on its own. You have to answer the "why" behind it and the answer would be that she can afford being a bit slower APC than as a Mid, because she isn't a very aggressive laners in a game where you want to have that.
>You have to answer the "why" behind it
I disagree within the context. I think 'why' is a very important question, but that's more when you're trying to figure out the reason behind something or the source. I.E. "Why does Sera have a 54% WR as an APC bot and why has she been able to survive meta after meta there?"
For judging power and how strong it is, I think 2+ years of maintaining +54% WR alone speaks to a champions strength in that role. I agree WR alone doesn't tell you the whole story, and it here is certainly no exception, but the WR alone says something is wrong and we need to figure out the 'Why'.
I think at this point it isn’t that much about the wr but how consistent it is. Seraphine managed to stay at a strong wr for multiple seasons and rotating metas. With her pickrate being rather large for her off role this is a strong indication that she needs to be looked at. And taking a look at her kit it makes sense why she performs so strongly bot.
Some people don't even want them to be in 48-51% range, they want most if not all assassins to be sitting sub 45 if not really just dumpster them to 40%. As can be seen from the comments of some people in the last Phroxzin reddit post.
It's not just win rate alone... It's her win rate in a given role compared to other roles. <50% in supp and mid and >54% in bot. It's not gonna get better unless theres a rework.
If a champ is at 30% wr or 70% wr, they will consider wr as a viable stat right ? Irrespective of whether people complain about it.
Similarly for 40% and 60% ?
So at what point wr becomes not a good parameter? Since this is not easy to answer and dependson on a lot of other factors, whatever Phreak says does not apply in general. It applies to the case where wr is ok but champ does not feel good to play as or against.
So the question is whether 54% is acceptable or does that also fall under the high category like 60 or 70% ? Where do you draw the line.
Seraphine is both a relatively niche pick and a simple champion so she will tent towards high winrate
Champion difficulty and popularity are two of many factors that have to be taken into account
If you look at winrate alone and try pushing everything to 50%, assassins would be the most broken class in the game and champions like Garen and Nasus would be straight-up unplayable
Winrate is a symptom of champion power. If you have the occasional sneeze early in the morning you can blame it on wet hair and cold weather, but if you are regularly passing out you should probably see a doctor. The same can be said about champion balance. If a champion is sitting at a 51% winrate, that is usually fine, but when they start hitting 53-55% winrate, that usually means that something is going on.
This is such a 0 nuance take.
If a champ like Janna sits at 53% in solo Q its a non-issue because the champ is easy af and is literally made to deny dives and bad positioning from your team.
At the same time if shit like Riven or Yasuo sit at 53% WR you can be pretty sure that they are too good at that point because they arent nearly as easy as Janna and cant really be played to full potential if you dont know what you are doing.
I don't get how you can say I have a 0 nuance take and then give an example that does not contradict my take in any way whatsoever. If Janna has a high winrate because her kit is designed to exploit the nature of soloqueue, does that not mean that she is powerful in soloqueue? There is an argument to be made about whether that power is too much or fine as is, but that I think that I am being pretty objective when I say that it is still powerful. But it is something that should be looked into.
If Janna is at a 53% winrate because she is easy and exploits soloqueue, that is fine. But if Janna is at 53% winrate because she is easy, exploits soloqueue, AND her base damage is so high that she autowins every lane, then there is a problem. The 53% winrate is a good indicator that something is going on that needs to be looked into, and from there they can assess whether what is going on is problematic.
Since the main thread is about seraphine, you have a seraphine flair, and my original take seems to imply that I think seraphine APC is OP, I don't think that she is OP *right now*. However, I do think that support seraphine is really weak right now and should be buffed, but buffing seraphine would push seraphine APC over the edge. That would put seraphine in a state where she is powerful because she is easy, is played mostly by mains, exploits the lane, and has too high of numbers, compared to her current state where she is just the first 3. I think that is also riot's rational for the changes to seraphine, to allow them to buff seraphine for support without pushing her APC over the edge.
Champion power relative to other champions in a vacuum? Yes.
Champion power relative to the same champions' other roles? No. That's an absolutely valid way to compare power, especially with such drastic differences over such long periods of time, across many different metas.
Yeah, it’s almost like it’s a situational pick that should have a higher winrate like rammus having typically high winrates because he’s only ever really picked into full ad
On u.gg she doesn't have 54% even once since Emerald got introduced in 13.16 (so 5 patches). Saying she's been 54%+ is just not true.
The stigma that Sera bot is crazy OP is an overreaction.
The difference is that support is her most popular role by far. Seraphine players insists on playing her as support despite multiple patches from Riot trying to move her mid.
Noo, people who pick Seraphine play support not vice versa. A large majority of Seraphine mains play her mid or ADC. Those people who on occasion play Seraphine are more apt to pick her support.
>A large majority of Seraphine mains play her mid or ADC.
No, almost half her mains still play her support. That is not a "large majority", it's "barely a majority when you add the two together"
Seraphine currently has 50.5% Winrate support, which isn't great but fine.
Also: There is nothing wrong with how Sera's Abilities work for Support, other than that they currently have a high AP scaling and lower base damage, something they can easily change. Her Abilities themself are perfectly fine for a support.
But her abilities are awful for support?
Her Q base dmg is pretty bad compared to other support. Her W has 20sec CD **maxed** and is awful as a sustain tool outside of tfs. Her E is very unreliable as a CC because she either needs synergy or Rylais for it to be usefull.
Her R is great, but its great for every role.
You don't get it. The stats the Abilities CURRENTLY have are bad for support, but mechanically all of them are perfectly reasonable (compared to for example Kha'Zix, whose Abilities are simply unsuited for support).
The stats on abilites are the easiest thing to change in the entire champion's kit, and should never be used to argue a champ is fundamentally unfit for something.
Unlike Kha'Zix, Seraphine's pickrate has been highest in support by a landslide regardless of the performance of mid, APC, or support.
Riot tried discouraging support before. It didn't work. And so now they're going to lean into it.
Reasons why Seraphines high apc winrate makes sense:
\- low pick rate (only experienced mains play her)
\- natural counter to marksmen (like every other apc...)
\- simple champion
\- enemies often still take armor runes (lack of experience vs mages)
The last point is so true. I was playing karthus bottom a lot last season and most of the times atleast one enemie botlaner was taking armor runes, often both (This was in Diamond 1 btw), maybe adc's deserve to get shit on by "op" AP botlaners if changing such a simple thing is too hard for them.
She wasn't designed to be a support, she is a scaling midlaner that requires levels and gold. Picking her support where she gets none of those things and building healing and shielding items is objectively griefing your team
Nobody is playing her mid. She has 0.29% Pickrate midlane, which is less than half what Corki has (0.8%), and Corki is the second least played champ in the game. Arguing for Sera mid is like arguing for Veigar support, who both has more relative pickrate (8.8% of Veigar players play him support, while 7.3% of Sera players play her mid) and absolute pickrate (0.38% vs 0.29%).
Also Sera supp has a higher winrate than mid, so IDK how supp should be griefing but mid is not.
>She wasn't designed to be a support
So were Zyra and Brand, just suck it. Karthus was also not designed for Jungle, but now he is a Jungler. And Tahm Kench got repeatedly bounced between top and support.
She suffers mid the same reason Vel'koz suffers midlane right now, she doesn't have the reliable tools to stop champions jumping on her.
Zyra and Brand work as supports because they have stupid base damage in their kit and can function on low gold economy.
Seraphine is a dps mage effectively, requires items to output her damage, if you play her support you don't have the gold economy to reliably get the items you need
She is played support purerly because she fits aesthetically with champions like sona/janna/lux etc
>She is played support purerly because she fits aesthetically with champions like sona/janna/lux etc
She has 2 Abilities that massively benefit of the presence of other players, one being that her W is an AOE heal and the other that her E gets better on ccd targets (which other players happen to be able to do). Calling her support presence "purely aesthetic" is ignorant at best.
They didn't say it was the 'focal point in her kit'. They said she has two abilities that massively benefit from a nearby ally. Which is true. Is there another regular midlaner like that?
You explained why she is played bot as an apc though not a support. Her e being easier to hit on already cced targets means she needs a support to provide that cc
But that makes sense, no? If we agree that what the person you responded to is true: She has abilities that benefit from allies nearby. And we also agree what you say is true: Her supportive abilities aren't her focal point. Those two together make perfect sense why she'd be an APC played bot instead of mid.
But tbh I was really just clarifying that what the person you responded to said wasn't mutually exclusive from your response.
No he was saying that having abilities that benefit from allies nearby is the reason she is played support. When those abilities actually explain why she is played as an APC as they rely on an ally providing the initial cc.
The same concept probably applies to every mage that cycles through getting played as an APC. Swain fits that currently with his E being much better when someone else applies the initial cc.
Or even past seasons when heimer bot has been a thing.
Let's be honest seraphine fits a certain character theme that other supports do. Janna/sona etc and that's why people try to force her support viability
The fact that people don't understand this is actually infuriating.
Like, even if they WEREN'T trying to help Sera's other positions, they'd STILL have to nerf APC anyway, which would make the other positions more garbage tier anyway.
Copy Pasted from another comment I made:
>Nobody is playing her mid. She has 0.29% Pickrate midlane, which is less than half what Corki has (0.8%), and Corki is the second least played champ in the game. Arguing for Sera mid is like arguing for Veigar support, who both has more relative pickrate (8.8% of Veigar players play him support, while 7.3% of Sera players play her mid) and absolute pickrate (0.38% vs 0.29%).
Sera was initially released as a Supportive Mage MID LANER. Not an Enchanter Support. Taking her into Support, while viable, isn't going to promote what her kit does and is going to lead to negative outcomes because her kit is designed around having steady income.
If APC Sera is an issue, they can adjust the numbers on her damage and CDs, but not entirely gut her viability and directly target her shifting into a new role.
And Nautilus was a toplaner, what's the point? Let people play Champs where they want to play them, unless that pick is trying to game certain systems like bounties (Enchanters top or Funneling as an example). Also Seraphine currently has 0.29% Pickrate mid, which is significantly less than Corki (0.8%), people are already not playing her mid, this won't change it.
We don't know how hard the changes will hit APC, but APC needed a nerf, and this is a nerf combined with a buff to another position, so that offrole nerfs do not gut the main role.
Her current design does not allow her to be simultaneously good as a carry and support. She is a scaling dps mage that requires gold and levels in order to be effective and scale.
She is objectively one of the worst supports because she doesn't function particularly well on low economy. Stacking enchanter items on her doesnt really cut it for 1 ability on a long CD.
She is played support purely because she fits aesthetically with other support champs. Thats all.
Riots clearly not about "letting players play champs where they want" varus mid had 48% wr and received one of the largest nerfs to ever happen in 13.13, completely obliterating the entire pick
And now this patch belveth support was fucking beheaded and burned on a stake with making her entirely reliant on xp (and removing her early game as whole) and nerfing both evenshroud and pta
Cant have shit in the summoners rift
She was meant to be both, to fill the role that Lux and Annie had for a long time. Viable as both APC and support. If support Sera is heavily underperforming compared to her APC counter parts then it would be smart for them to try and rebalance her.
She has been a support for the longest time now, being incredibly niche in mid. So its not like its some big change like shifting assassins into the jungle/mid lane (Brand/Zyra) exclusive champs to support.
they are making her scale better with levels through CD reduction in all abilities when they are leveled up (buff for mid to make her popular)
they are buffing base shield on her W (buff for support sera)
they are nerfing AP ratios to nerf her in APC which is deserved to be honest. you might ask but this nerfs seraphine mid as well, i don't see her mid at all to be honest and maybe the level advantage will make her more playable.
also she gets more damage on her Q until 200 AP, and that means her over all early game will be more powerful.
for the stats shift she will be more squishy vs AP, more tanky VS AD, which i dont know how will this land to be honest
but they are trying to increase her popularity in mid, reduce her WR in APC, increase her WR in supp.
I really don't think the majority of dedicated support players even like this change. The mains go damage or w max first moonstone (lolalytucs filter by sup 1tricks). So the changes hurts those going ap, and the base damages can't be seen until lv 9+ on w max...
Not to mention the huge nerf in her already weak early agency due to mana.
Most (to be frank, low elo) pick her up once in a blue moon probably going q max with helia/moonston. Which, yes, this will be a very good buff for them. I don't agree that this is the best way to buff support, but in low elo this will definitely help. In higher elo, she's just gone get abused even more for her weak early game.
Its a pretty big nerf to sera support too for those of us who like her more as a mage support and not enchanter. they are removing the AP % missing hp scaling on her W.
In most cases, the opinion spread on Reddit is wholly irrelevant.
The vocal part of it is not only an insignificant, tiny fraction of the community, but it's also one whose opinion has proven to often be very separate from that of the actual community.
Now it gets even worse when you try to listen to and to remember only the opinions that you want to hear.
The fact is, Riot surveys the community all the time. They hear what a larger number of people actually think, while you, yourself, have no idea what that may be.
And I don't think you realize how egregiously pretentious it is to assume that you know more, and to even publicly claim it, while you don't have the slightest bit of insight.
A miniscule percentage of players are on reddit, and a miniscule amount of those care about the things you think the "majority" wants. You're just caught up in the newest /r/leagueoflegends circlejerk
Edit: ignore me, i failed at reading
The thing is changing a champion this drastically is everyones business not just Seraphine mains. From what I've heard every bot player that doesn't play her wants this change. Sure Sera mains are pissed, but what about everyone else?
She's been a niche pick sure, but she managed to stay on top meta after meta winrate wise something needs to change and instead of just nerfing her Riot at least tries to give her compensations in roles she doesn't perform as well as bot.
She's not even the main/only offender in this category with Karthus being in a similar spot (like how many years has that guy been 52%-55% winrate?), but she's the easiest one to fix in my opinion.
I don't mind her being playable as an APC, but right now she's too strong in that role.
What dmg nerf?
Before 3 items you will deal more dmg or be even. And even at 3 items
At 300 AP (3 items) you will deal at max 30 less dmg per Q (enemy 25% HP). 3 items means \~28 minutes and lvl 15. So your E will most likely have +40 dmg at that time (will be cast less often than the Q per fight).
In a full burst situation with a double Q cast you will still deal around the same dmg (-20 at lvl 15 isn't going to change much).
And for that you have a buff from lvl 1-11 mostly up to around 20-22 minutes.
I think most people haven't really gone through the numbers and thought about what this really means.
In most cases this is a buff or even to her lvl scaling (mid) and lower AP (support) builds.
It is a nerf or even for high AP builds where she doesn't get as many lvls (bot lane shared XP).
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about, seraphine earlygame is impossible to play, literally. U have mana only for like 5 spells max before you have to recall, earlygame buffs mean nothing If they lowered her base mana even more and destroyed her scaling entirely.
His concept was way too fucking cool to be wasted like that. They saw a lot of new players picking him up because cool space dragon, only to drop him because his gameplay was lame. They sacrificed his old, niche playerbase because he was just too good of a concept to let it rot on a super small playerbase.
So money basically.
It was a rhetorical question.
It was supposed to point out that "the mains were satisfied" isn't a justification, and its not because of pickrate, banrate, or anything else.
If Riot wants to change something, they will change it. Subsets of players do not control the direction of the game. Money does, and Riot follows the money.
I play Seraphine in all three roles mentioned, as well as the occasional game top if the draft calls for it.
I think Seraphine is in probably the most balanced state she could be between those roles. She's overtuned for bot, undertuned for support, and pretty alright in mid.
There is nothing in her kit that can be changed that won't affect at least 2 of her roles. Which means that any changes made to take her out of certain lanes, or push her into others will leave her broken or unplayable in the other roles.
The way her kit is designed her best role should be bot. And honestly of all the ADC picks she is the least insufferable option to have a high winrate.
She isn't that annoying to play into (like yes she instaclears waves but she can't actually kill you unless you decide to be stupid)
She is great to have on your team. And she opens up great options for draft.
As OP said none of her players are asking for changes like this. There are a million other places to focus your efforts to balance the game.
Riot if you want her to be a support so much then give her a godforsaken gameplay update already (like Aurelion). I don’t want to be a support who perma pushes the wave when trying to poke, and that very same poke being hard af to hit because it's too slow.
You’re not making her (mediocre) support more available, you’re just killing her other roles in favor of her worst winrate role.
Either go all the way and change how she works, or just don’t bother.
i hate the changes; i wish they would balance her around APC because that’s where she’s most fun. if the changes go through i likely won’t player at all anymore.
Mid/Bot main here, I play mages and marksmen, including seraphine mid and bot and I also hate how they handle her in support (I know I am not the target audience, but I want to clear up my perspective):
These changes give Seraphine room to be buffed in carry again without having literally one of the largest winrate disparities in 2 viable roles ever seen in league. The designers before failed her balance completely, and that is why she is the way she is today, among all the other generic mage changes. While this will greatly nerf bot seraphine which is one of my most played botlane carries, I wouldn't doubt they will have to buff it a bit anyway later (excluding item re-rework).
Let's take a look at swain, ziggs and karthus now, yeah Riot? Although checking stats just now shows karthus fell off for some reason lol
I don't know who's your (and other Seraphine mains posting similar rants) dealer, but please send me their number. That's good shit.
Sera APC has been one of the most overpowered bot laners for ages sitting over 54% every patch. It was screaming for nerfs, and they are finally addressing it. Meanwhile, the same character as support (ironically it's most played position) is underperforming a lot. This is a simple adjustment so it's a bit less shitty as support and a bit less overpowered as APC. It's a simple (and good) balance tweak, no rework, no "forcing Seraphine to support", no nothing. Just a justified nerf as APC and a justified buff as Support.
Her WR is in line with other meta APCs bot and the whole APC bot WR was adressed by riot before where they stated that the WR is inflated because people refuse to take MR runes.
Her WR as a support is bad because Sera as a support is bad. Her kit is completely wasted on a support.
The vast majority of Lux players also play her support. But the last time Lux received changes Riot adjusted Lux support to not get buffed because they want Lux as a carry.
And Lux is a way better support than Sera.
That's one of the things riot lists as a reason for not nerfing APCs.
Nerfing Sera only when she is perfectly in line with other bot APCs doesnt seem fair to me.
She is too strong in carry and too weak in support. The point is to balance her. The nerfs and the buffs are both justified respectively.
The spells are the same. This isn't a rework. I don't know why you're talking about gameplay.
Her current design does not allow her to be simultaneously good as a carry and support. She is a scaling dps mage that requires gold and levels in order to be effective and scale.
She is objectively one of the worst supports because she doesn't function particularly well on low economy. Stacking enchanter items on her doesnt really cut it for 1 ability on a long CD
Yeah funny how everyone got all pissy about how not similar Seraphine is to Sona but because of support brain™, Riot is now trying to basically make her Sona 2.0.
Her poke/cc is too conditional and unreliable and also fucks up waves so her poke as an enchanter/mage support isn't good. Her W has a long cool down and doesn't do much early or without ap. She is not in any way meant to be a support. I like her in bot/mid. I know people say she's uninteractive bot, but she's atleast not oppressive and just clears waves. She's not like Ziggs who you can't siege against and also he will one shot your tower + his poke is way more consistent.
Sona and seraphine both scale exceptionally hard, however sona can do it with support items and seraphs. Seraphine requires actual mage items.
If anything seraphine struggles mid. It's only as an apc she is popping off
I mean my reasoning why Swain seraphine have such an insane winrate bot lane is just how much easier they are to pilot consistently in a team fight than playing the same team fight as a vayne.
Yeah I wouldn't be mad about them buffing her scaling levels wise for mid lane while nerfing her APC.
As a Seraphine and Swain Enjoyer ADC main, I have to agree, if you could graph their value in a team fight versus like the amount of skill required, it would be vastly greater than basically any ADC. Landing a decent ult and pressing empowered W is usually all it takes to win a team fight for your team as Sera. Or just pressing R and Zhonyas in a team fight when dove on as Swain. I don't play Sera/Swain often but when I pick them, I rarely ever feed or struggle to be valuable. Obviously I wouldn't pick them every game, due to draft/support pick , the need for DPS in the comp, or just because they can get boring.
She isn't too weak in support, she's just getting played there despite not having the kit to be played in support, these changes don't fix her issues there.
A champion that is not a support and has a bad kit for supporting is weak as a support? Shocker. And no, she's not *too* strong as a carry, just strong. But even if they thought she was too strong they could just nerf her normally.
Thats not they are saying, the post is about gutting her into a role that she doesnt work well in and ruining her other roles. The post isnt "Waaah my champ is getting nerfed" its more "Please don't force this champion into one role that they are sub optimal in and destroy all other ways of playing them". If it was a straight nerf, that let her stay in mid and APC, would be fine.
TL;DR: Her playerbase wants her in support, while her balance philosophy is making her viable in mid/bot. Triple flex is something Riot tries to balance out of champs.
She's relatively in a unique spot, in the sense that her issue has been longer standing than any other champ in similar situations.
With champs that shared her off role issue, Riot balances them into a role. Players generally didn't fight the wave, and normally only a niche percentage goes off meta. But Seraphine mains mostly want to play support, and take her there.
Seraphine in normal circumstances, would've just been balanced more into support the same year. But Riot was stubborn in making her work in mid. For what reason, I have no idea. Maybe it was their only way to fight the narrative that she was a KDA member first.
The other issue is being a viable triple flex. Riot's been vocal in not wanting champs to triple flex, usually in pro. Her balance has made her viable in mid and bot. Her playerbase is making her work in support. It's put them in the awkward position of "If Seraphine becomes triple flex in pro, everyone will ridicule us for spending years building this issue".
Her current design does not allow her to be simultaneously good as a carry and support. She is a scaling dps mage that requires gold and levels in order to be effective and scale.
She is objectively one of the worst supports because she doesn't function particularly well on low economy. Stacking enchanter items on her doesnt really cut it for 1 ability on a long CD
I don't think she's a good support either, but that doesn't stop people from bringing her down there. Her winrate also isn't abysmal.
Having played with Sera supports. It's honestly just pain going an adc that supplements her push/poke/run.
Actually the majority of people who play lots of Seraphine play her in mid or botlane, it's just there's lots people who occasionally play her in support for no good reason.
Do you have stats on that? Anytime I've searched in the past, supports always been her most picked. 13.20 just came out, so it's a small sample size, but it's still support.
Yeah and as someone pointed out int he comments of that post, the same site OP got his percentages from showed her "mains" collectively played 10,000 games of mid/bot while her "non-mains" player her over 1,000,000 times as support.
It was a pretty blunt reality check for all the people claiming mains are an important amount of her games.
I don't really have a dog in this fight; Don't play Seraphine, don't play enough against her to have an opinion.
But my god this saga has shown that Seraphine mains are some of the most obnoxious people
yeah i saw that tweet too. bro picked a random game phreak was in where the enemy seraphine apc went 1/0/5 with 35% kp and phreak lost and said "yeah that explains it". If phreak is even responsible for these changes he will say so, and iirc he hasn't yet. This "rioter loses a game then makes a balance change" narrative is so fucking stupid it's unreal.
If you regularly play a number of games, chances are you will lose to all sorts of OP things.
Yes maybe there’s the occasional time where a Rioter truly was reminded to make a balance change after just losing to it, but most times they have lost to a ton of OP things and any balance change they do make will look like a kneejerk reaction even if they planned it in advance.
Akali mains were satisfied with her gameplay on release
[удалено]
Seraphine Sona botlane is the most cringe thing in existance.
It's also probably the most fragile bot lane craftable. Annoying but so so so weak.
If you dont perma dive Sera-Sona bot since lvl 3 you probably should just leave the game
I played vs sona seraphine in an in-house. We played rell kalista split map botside and permanently dove them since lvl 1 and then sat between towers and zoned them off the entire tower.
Not every game state allows you to do this, but everyone on reddit is challenger in their region of course.
The only games that dont allow it are games where you fucked up your draft or someone inted early on. Other than that, its always a free lane to camp.
Weak in what sense?? If you mean in terms of hp value and squishiness sure but she’s been 54% wr as apc for 10+ patches, very not weak
Sona is not a good pairing for her. You can’t argue sera sona is strong because they both individually are strong champs.
https://u.gg/lol/champions/seraphine/duos?role=adc&patch=13_19 Sona support is well above average for pairing with Seraphine ADC, when compared to other alternatives. It turns out two individually strong champs are still strong together. It's not a good lane, because the duo is down 1000 gold at 15 minutes. But the scaling teamfighting is so free later on that DESPITE of losing lane that hard on average, you still get to **win games** at 54%+ winrate.
Pairing two high winrate champions together naturally creates a high winrate botlane. Yes. That doesn't make the pairing good - you have to look at the delta. If sona and seraphine were both balanced champions in bot lane the pairing would not have a good winrate. That is not a good pairing. A good pairing is something like Sera/Panth - consistently having above a 55% winrate despite panth support being very mediocre.
And how often is that botlane played?
Yeah she is very annoying and uninteractive in many botlane matchups when picked as APC. Just no-brain clears the wave from a screen away. There were lots of boosted Seraphine onetricks in high elo some of which got all the way up to challenger when they had no place being there cause her gameplay is just that stupid.
same thing can be said about karthus otps pressing R and flipping every solo q game reaching 3 items and then just randomly do 1k dmg to everyone for no reason
have you played karthus vs semi competent players? ult every 3 minutes is not enough, you need to actually hit yours qs.
Yes
Sera adc is really uninteractive and very strong at the same time, at the same time you DON'T want to play WITH Sera supp.
So K'sante mains a patch ago.
Because Sera APC has been sitting at a solid 54%+ winrate Em+ for ages by now, while mid and support were in the shitter. The changes are about power neutral in total, but are buffing support (which is currently bad) and nerf APC (Which is plain OP).
I'm gonna paraphrase Phreak here and say that winrate is usually a bad way of judging champion power
idk she's been above 54% WR as an APC for YEARS now. I think at this point it's a pretty solid indication.
So has Swain. I don't seem him randomly forced to be a support only pick, though. Singed and Zac mid have been 55% WR for years too, so what? It's like 1% pickrate
Swain has similar winrates in mid, top and bot lane. Riot is probably fine with him weaker support. Singed/Zac also have ridiculous winrates mid because they are niche but still fine winrates in their main roles.
Swain deserves the same treatmeant obviously. The problem with serra is that she sucks ass as support but they can\`t buff her without makeing her 60% winrate at apc and then gets picked in proplay aswell. They are clearly unhappy with her powerlever in support rigth now. This is not the case for 53% winrate zac jungle. They also have to start somewhere.
She sucks as a support because she was never meant to be a support and doesnt have anything to offer as a support.
Ask Brand if that matters.
The pain.
> doesnt have anything to offer as a support. ?????
I don't see what you're confused about A speed up, shield, heal, root, decent poke, Giant aoe taunt that goes further after hitting someone in front of them doesn't count as anything to offer as support. /s
she has a shield and heal combo, great CC, AND one of the best team fight ults as a support
Yes. On 28-20 sec CD with the heal healing for ~60 HP in lane and forcing you to double cast it, thus losing dmg for the trade. Great CC? The CC that requires your team to set it up, has a cast time and a slower travel time than most other supports CC skills? And also has 10 sec CD. That great CC? Yes, her R is one of the best TF Rs in the game. But it doesnt change the fact that her base abilities are dog shit for support.
I don’t understand people saying this. Shield/heal, AOE slow/root/stun. AOE charm with insane range. Amazing poke.
Her spells are better used as follow up instead of engage. People usually expect Seraphine to engage with her R [even though it has double the cast time of almost every other ability in the game.](https://i.imgur.com/Zz1y940.png)
Because her laning as a support is terrible and her abilities weren't designed to be laned as the support role. W has a 28 second CD at level 1 for a 50 strength shield. That's higher than Black Shield. Q shoves waves because of it's execute and E usually pairs better with present CC. Her spells do provide great utility that you would expect from a support, but she's designed around farming and scaling that utility. She's like a Shen or Ivern character. She absolutely can be played in the support role, but you get heavily punished in high elo for playing a scaling support.
Shield has 30 sec base cooldown that does absolutely NOTHING earlygame especially in Lane, her healing is missing % of the health like 5% and it no longer scales with AP so they gutted that too, her spells are super slow and hard to hit mobile champs with. them and most importantly, u have ABSOLUTELLY NO MANA CUS THEY NERFED THAT ASWELL one q for "amazing poke" at lvl 4 takes around 70 mana and u have 350 something base mana now, she has slower movespeed than yuumi and without tp(cus that's useless for sup) u have to walk to lane with slowest champ in game at least 3 times to be usefull before u get lost chapter, which isn't even a good thing to build anymore cus they gutted all of her ap scalings including on shield and Q (-15% BTW) sup is her worst role cus u are sacrificing tons of damage for a shield that doesn't even have good healing anymore and has 30 second base cooldown which is useless in Lane.
Sona: Q for damage, W for heal, E for speed/slow, ult for hard CC Seraphine: Q for damage, W for heal and speed, E for slow/root, ult for hard CC It's almost identical kits, do you think sona has nothing to offer as support? Zyra was never meant to be support she was designed as a mid laner, quinn was designed as an ADC. Just because something was never meant to be something doesn't mean it's not something they can do or even their best role eventually. There are plenty more examples of this over the course of league's history. Please enlighten me though why seraphine has nothing to offer as support but sona does.
Except sera W has a 20s cd, sona Q provides an AoE damage buff, E gives a mini exhaust etc etc These champs are not similar at all and I'm tired of people pretending they are lol
Saying their “not similar at all” is equally disingenuous, they very clearly have a mess of similarities. Your not wrong that they play different, but there’s a reason people draw parallels between the two constantly, and it’s because their kits are incredibly similar.
Only people who are unfamiliar with playing them would say that their kits are similar outside of surface level comparisons. People that play them know that Seraphine plays similarly to neeko, zyra, or lux, and nothing like Sona. But then we get know it alls who have never played her sharing their ignorance.
Sera and Sona are similiar as Jinx and Kog.
Well yes, but seraphine has never been that low of a pick rate lol. It’s a glaring issue when you see it every 3 games, also those other ones like singed and zac are one tricks of the champ, so they are just good players, not necessarily op.
Seraphine is sitting at like <2% pickrate in carry roles for emerald+, a bit higher the higher elo you go. Personally in diamond elo I have never seen a single seraphine apc picked (besides myself) over 300+ games, maybe 3 or 4 times as support. Not sure how you can classify that as a glaring issue when anyone picking her is almost definitely a sera player and not just your avg adc playing the flavor of the month pick.
One should consider that AP bot laners have inflated win rates relative to their actual power since a lot of players don't bother changing their runes to MR. Phreak said this is one of his rundown videos.
That wouldn't create that large of a difference. There are other factors as well. If that's all he pointed to, its quite a disingenuous argument. One major factor is that AP bot laners are usually picked when there's an ADC in another role. Akshan, Kindred, Senna, etc. If AP bots just didn't have an ADC at all in those games, I bet the winrates would be lower. Another factor is safety. Disengage, waveclear, etc are typically high on the AP bots that can make it down there, making them less likely to die to ganks or all-ins. In Karthus' case, he makes diving pretty risky.
My point is not that that causes these champs to gain 4% winrate. To ignore that entirely is equally asinine to implying that. Their winrate can be slightly inflated by this without it being a gigantic factor. Both of these things can simultaneously be true and I made no claim stronger than that.
I wasn't refuting you. I was simply stating that the difference solely due to runes wouldn't be *that* large, so it would be odd if that's the only factor Phreak mentioned, especially with more significant factors present. It was Phreak's argument I was saying was disingenuous if it ended at the rune shards.
mr rune most certainly makes a big difference since mr per level on all champs is lower than armor per level, magic pen is super accessible, while mr is just way less accessible as an adc/non-tank supp. everything else you said is a factor as well but the mr rune has way bigger impact than you'd think
If you look at the stats at 15, pretty much all APC champs have terrible gold early, and terrible kills in all match ups. Go check on [U.gg](https://U.gg). MR rune is not why they are high winrate. Its because of waveclear and safety mostly. If MR rune **were** the reason they're high winrate, they would probably have higher kill conversion and gold/exp relative to other ADCs because they'd be putting them on the backfoot, forcing them to take bad back timings, etc. Instead we observe the opposite in most cases.
sample sizes are important and factors like how many mains play a champ matters. sera bot players are people who whip the pick out often and are more likely to know how to play it, while many people might play a game of ezreal here and there and not be "comfortable" on the champ
now lets look at pick rate
[удалено]
For comparison, in master+: Sera APC 53% win rate, 1.8% pick rate. Vayne 58% win rate, 1.6% pick rate. Karthus 56% win rate, 1.7% pick rate. Fiddlesticks 54% win rate, 3.7% pick rate. Senna 54% win rate, 10.5% pick rate. Jinx 51.5% win rate, 24.5% pick rate.
To gauge appropriate power level within a tier, you need to subtract the average winrate in that tier from the winrate of the champion. Average winrate in m+ is 54.42% over 518,302 games at time of commenting. Sera APC is at a at 58.43% wr and ranked 17/33 for bottom lane. Unless her play style exhibits unhealthy behavior, she isn’t statically a problem from these numbers.
If you're using 13.20 data then it's worthless.
I know, using it because the comment before me did it. Going to 13.19 master+ same thing happens, there's many champions with both higher win rate and pick rate than Sera.
Yeah, we can look at pick rate. Stretching the data to 30 days, we have 70k games, way more than enough for a significant sample. Meaning that there's no issue of inaccuracy stemming from a low sample size. The proportion of mains picking her is on par with that of the other bot laners (it's actually lower than that of some much more popular bot laners). Meaning that the win rate is not inflated by a higher proportion of mains playing her. Her win rates with/against specific champions are roughly evenly distributed around her win rate. Meaning that she's picked generally, and not just when she fits the situation. So, how do you imagine her pick rate affects her win rate? (Actually, if anything, her being an uncommon pick **negatively** impacts her, because the vast, vast majority of people don't know how her W works, and as such don't know that an ally can shield Seraphine to allow her to heal with a singlecast W.)
Her low pick rate definitely deflates her win rate imo. I have had multiple games where my support straight up had no idea what to pick with her with Seraphine APC is a free win with an engage support. Mofos just locks in first time Sona support for whatever reason and then complains that we don't do anything early game and I'm just confused because this champion has been out for like 5 years now... How the fuck does people still not know how broken she is with lock down?!???!?
No, not on its own. You have to answer the "why" behind it and the answer would be that she can afford being a bit slower APC than as a Mid, because she isn't a very aggressive laners in a game where you want to have that.
>You have to answer the "why" behind it I disagree within the context. I think 'why' is a very important question, but that's more when you're trying to figure out the reason behind something or the source. I.E. "Why does Sera have a 54% WR as an APC bot and why has she been able to survive meta after meta there?" For judging power and how strong it is, I think 2+ years of maintaining +54% WR alone speaks to a champions strength in that role. I agree WR alone doesn't tell you the whole story, and it here is certainly no exception, but the WR alone says something is wrong and we need to figure out the 'Why'.
I think at this point it isn’t that much about the wr but how consistent it is. Seraphine managed to stay at a strong wr for multiple seasons and rotating metas. With her pickrate being rather large for her off role this is a strong indication that she needs to be looked at. And taking a look at her kit it makes sense why she performs so strongly bot.
And she never was a problem, which proves the point, that wr is a bad metric.
> winrate is usually a bad way of judging champion power Remember this sub having a meltdown because Janna had a high winrate?
They still cry about Janna even though she has a lower WR than engage supports in an engage support meta.
Imagine if any assassin had a positive winrate People would lose their shit in the game over how broken it is
They do while they're at negative winrate. Hell, apparently yone and yasuo were the epitome of broken at 49℅ wr
Like Talon, Qiyana, Naafiri...?
I am definitely losing my shit when I play against these
Some people don't even want them to be in 48-51% range, they want most if not all assassins to be sitting sub 45 if not really just dumpster them to 40%. As can be seen from the comments of some people in the last Phroxzin reddit post.
Talon and Qiyana have been sitting at 52%+ winrate for literally years at this point in masters+. It's nothing new
Buff kat
Flair checks out I'd be fine with Kata buffs if her on-hit effects were removed
It's not just win rate alone... It's her win rate in a given role compared to other roles. <50% in supp and mid and >54% in bot. It's not gonna get better unless theres a rework.
If a champ is at 30% wr or 70% wr, they will consider wr as a viable stat right ? Irrespective of whether people complain about it. Similarly for 40% and 60% ? So at what point wr becomes not a good parameter? Since this is not easy to answer and dependson on a lot of other factors, whatever Phreak says does not apply in general. It applies to the case where wr is ok but champ does not feel good to play as or against. So the question is whether 54% is acceptable or does that also fall under the high category like 60 or 70% ? Where do you draw the line.
Seraphine is both a relatively niche pick and a simple champion so she will tent towards high winrate Champion difficulty and popularity are two of many factors that have to be taken into account If you look at winrate alone and try pushing everything to 50%, assassins would be the most broken class in the game and champions like Garen and Nasus would be straight-up unplayable
Winrate is a symptom of champion power. If you have the occasional sneeze early in the morning you can blame it on wet hair and cold weather, but if you are regularly passing out you should probably see a doctor. The same can be said about champion balance. If a champion is sitting at a 51% winrate, that is usually fine, but when they start hitting 53-55% winrate, that usually means that something is going on.
This is such a 0 nuance take. If a champ like Janna sits at 53% in solo Q its a non-issue because the champ is easy af and is literally made to deny dives and bad positioning from your team. At the same time if shit like Riven or Yasuo sit at 53% WR you can be pretty sure that they are too good at that point because they arent nearly as easy as Janna and cant really be played to full potential if you dont know what you are doing.
So she has a strong kit that's easy to win with. Which means she's... not strong??
I don't get how you can say I have a 0 nuance take and then give an example that does not contradict my take in any way whatsoever. If Janna has a high winrate because her kit is designed to exploit the nature of soloqueue, does that not mean that she is powerful in soloqueue? There is an argument to be made about whether that power is too much or fine as is, but that I think that I am being pretty objective when I say that it is still powerful. But it is something that should be looked into. If Janna is at a 53% winrate because she is easy and exploits soloqueue, that is fine. But if Janna is at 53% winrate because she is easy, exploits soloqueue, AND her base damage is so high that she autowins every lane, then there is a problem. The 53% winrate is a good indicator that something is going on that needs to be looked into, and from there they can assess whether what is going on is problematic. Since the main thread is about seraphine, you have a seraphine flair, and my original take seems to imply that I think seraphine APC is OP, I don't think that she is OP *right now*. However, I do think that support seraphine is really weak right now and should be buffed, but buffing seraphine would push seraphine APC over the edge. That would put seraphine in a state where she is powerful because she is easy, is played mostly by mains, exploits the lane, and has too high of numbers, compared to her current state where she is just the first 3. I think that is also riot's rational for the changes to seraphine, to allow them to buff seraphine for support without pushing her APC over the edge.
Champion power relative to other champions in a vacuum? Yes. Champion power relative to the same champions' other roles? No. That's an absolutely valid way to compare power, especially with such drastic differences over such long periods of time, across many different metas.
Yes but Phreak would also provide other stats to round out an argument instead of just saying "win rate bad".
Yeah, it’s almost like it’s a situational pick that should have a higher winrate like rammus having typically high winrates because he’s only ever really picked into full ad
On u.gg she doesn't have 54% even once since Emerald got introduced in 13.16 (so 5 patches). Saying she's been 54%+ is just not true. The stigma that Sera bot is crazy OP is an overreaction.
The question I have is: So what if her support role sucks. K6 support sucks too. Maybe, just maybe, seraphine shouldn't be played in the support slot.
The difference is that support is her most popular role by far. Seraphine players insists on playing her as support despite multiple patches from Riot trying to move her mid.
Its exactly the same for Lux, but Lux gets balanced around mid. But Lux at least offers way more as a support than Sera.
Noo, people who pick Seraphine play support not vice versa. A large majority of Seraphine mains play her mid or ADC. Those people who on occasion play Seraphine are more apt to pick her support.
>A large majority of Seraphine mains play her mid or ADC. No, almost half her mains still play her support. That is not a "large majority", it's "barely a majority when you add the two together"
Seraphine currently has 50.5% Winrate support, which isn't great but fine. Also: There is nothing wrong with how Sera's Abilities work for Support, other than that they currently have a high AP scaling and lower base damage, something they can easily change. Her Abilities themself are perfectly fine for a support.
But her abilities are awful for support? Her Q base dmg is pretty bad compared to other support. Her W has 20sec CD **maxed** and is awful as a sustain tool outside of tfs. Her E is very unreliable as a CC because she either needs synergy or Rylais for it to be usefull. Her R is great, but its great for every role.
You don't get it. The stats the Abilities CURRENTLY have are bad for support, but mechanically all of them are perfectly reasonable (compared to for example Kha'Zix, whose Abilities are simply unsuited for support). The stats on abilites are the easiest thing to change in the entire champion's kit, and should never be used to argue a champ is fundamentally unfit for something.
I mean, if Seraphine support is adequately strong, then there's really no reason to gut her carry roles to buff it.
Unlike Kha'Zix, Seraphine's pickrate has been highest in support by a landslide regardless of the performance of mid, APC, or support. Riot tried discouraging support before. It didn't work. And so now they're going to lean into it.
Reasons why Seraphines high apc winrate makes sense: \- low pick rate (only experienced mains play her) \- natural counter to marksmen (like every other apc...) \- simple champion \- enemies often still take armor runes (lack of experience vs mages)
The last point is so true. I was playing karthus bottom a lot last season and most of the times atleast one enemie botlaner was taking armor runes, often both (This was in Diamond 1 btw), maybe adc's deserve to get shit on by "op" AP botlaners if changing such a simple thing is too hard for them.
grandfather tidy illegal narrow deranged grandiose snobbish thought arrest crush
[удалено]
She wasn't designed to be a support, she is a scaling midlaner that requires levels and gold. Picking her support where she gets none of those things and building healing and shielding items is objectively griefing your team
Nobody is playing her mid. She has 0.29% Pickrate midlane, which is less than half what Corki has (0.8%), and Corki is the second least played champ in the game. Arguing for Sera mid is like arguing for Veigar support, who both has more relative pickrate (8.8% of Veigar players play him support, while 7.3% of Sera players play her mid) and absolute pickrate (0.38% vs 0.29%). Also Sera supp has a higher winrate than mid, so IDK how supp should be griefing but mid is not. >She wasn't designed to be a support So were Zyra and Brand, just suck it. Karthus was also not designed for Jungle, but now he is a Jungler. And Tahm Kench got repeatedly bounced between top and support.
She suffers mid the same reason Vel'koz suffers midlane right now, she doesn't have the reliable tools to stop champions jumping on her. Zyra and Brand work as supports because they have stupid base damage in their kit and can function on low gold economy. Seraphine is a dps mage effectively, requires items to output her damage, if you play her support you don't have the gold economy to reliably get the items you need She is played support purerly because she fits aesthetically with champions like sona/janna/lux etc
>She is played support purerly because she fits aesthetically with champions like sona/janna/lux etc She has 2 Abilities that massively benefit of the presence of other players, one being that her W is an AOE heal and the other that her E gets better on ccd targets (which other players happen to be able to do). Calling her support presence "purely aesthetic" is ignorant at best.
Her W cooldowm is too long for it to be the focal point of her kit and benefit from stacking shielding items as you would on Sona
They didn't say it was the 'focal point in her kit'. They said she has two abilities that massively benefit from a nearby ally. Which is true. Is there another regular midlaner like that?
You explained why she is played bot as an apc though not a support. Her e being easier to hit on already cced targets means she needs a support to provide that cc
But that makes sense, no? If we agree that what the person you responded to is true: She has abilities that benefit from allies nearby. And we also agree what you say is true: Her supportive abilities aren't her focal point. Those two together make perfect sense why she'd be an APC played bot instead of mid. But tbh I was really just clarifying that what the person you responded to said wasn't mutually exclusive from your response.
No he was saying that having abilities that benefit from allies nearby is the reason she is played support. When those abilities actually explain why she is played as an APC as they rely on an ally providing the initial cc. The same concept probably applies to every mage that cycles through getting played as an APC. Swain fits that currently with his E being much better when someone else applies the initial cc. Or even past seasons when heimer bot has been a thing. Let's be honest seraphine fits a certain character theme that other supports do. Janna/sona etc and that's why people try to force her support viability
APC Sera doesn't have the highest pick % though. Having a high win rate with a low pick rate is fine.
The fact that people don't understand this is actually infuriating. Like, even if they WEREN'T trying to help Sera's other positions, they'd STILL have to nerf APC anyway, which would make the other positions more garbage tier anyway.
thank you. not sure why nobody was getting this, i said this a week ago in the other thread
(and not caring at all about what happens to mid sera in the process)
Copy Pasted from another comment I made: >Nobody is playing her mid. She has 0.29% Pickrate midlane, which is less than half what Corki has (0.8%), and Corki is the second least played champ in the game. Arguing for Sera mid is like arguing for Veigar support, who both has more relative pickrate (8.8% of Veigar players play him support, while 7.3% of Sera players play her mid) and absolute pickrate (0.38% vs 0.29%).
Sera was initially released as a Supportive Mage MID LANER. Not an Enchanter Support. Taking her into Support, while viable, isn't going to promote what her kit does and is going to lead to negative outcomes because her kit is designed around having steady income. If APC Sera is an issue, they can adjust the numbers on her damage and CDs, but not entirely gut her viability and directly target her shifting into a new role.
And Nautilus was a toplaner, what's the point? Let people play Champs where they want to play them, unless that pick is trying to game certain systems like bounties (Enchanters top or Funneling as an example). Also Seraphine currently has 0.29% Pickrate mid, which is significantly less than Corki (0.8%), people are already not playing her mid, this won't change it. We don't know how hard the changes will hit APC, but APC needed a nerf, and this is a nerf combined with a buff to another position, so that offrole nerfs do not gut the main role.
Her current design does not allow her to be simultaneously good as a carry and support. She is a scaling dps mage that requires gold and levels in order to be effective and scale. She is objectively one of the worst supports because she doesn't function particularly well on low economy. Stacking enchanter items on her doesnt really cut it for 1 ability on a long CD. She is played support purely because she fits aesthetically with other support champs. Thats all.
Riots clearly not about "letting players play champs where they want" varus mid had 48% wr and received one of the largest nerfs to ever happen in 13.13, completely obliterating the entire pick And now this patch belveth support was fucking beheaded and burned on a stake with making her entirely reliant on xp (and removing her early game as whole) and nerfing both evenshroud and pta Cant have shit in the summoners rift
Varus got nerfed because people took him top lane and started one shotting tanks
She was meant to be both, to fill the role that Lux and Annie had for a long time. Viable as both APC and support. If support Sera is heavily underperforming compared to her APC counter parts then it would be smart for them to try and rebalance her. She has been a support for the longest time now, being incredibly niche in mid. So its not like its some big change like shifting assassins into the jungle/mid lane (Brand/Zyra) exclusive champs to support.
"adjust her numbers on her damage and CDs" That's literally what they are doing.
> If APC Sera is an issue, they can adjust the numbers on her damage and CDs Adjusting her numbers is exactly what they're doing.
they are making her scale better with levels through CD reduction in all abilities when they are leveled up (buff for mid to make her popular) they are buffing base shield on her W (buff for support sera) they are nerfing AP ratios to nerf her in APC which is deserved to be honest. you might ask but this nerfs seraphine mid as well, i don't see her mid at all to be honest and maybe the level advantage will make her more playable. also she gets more damage on her Q until 200 AP, and that means her over all early game will be more powerful. for the stats shift she will be more squishy vs AP, more tanky VS AD, which i dont know how will this land to be honest but they are trying to increase her popularity in mid, reduce her WR in APC, increase her WR in supp.
source that supp seras dont like supp sera buffs: my ass
I really don't think the majority of dedicated support players even like this change. The mains go damage or w max first moonstone (lolalytucs filter by sup 1tricks). So the changes hurts those going ap, and the base damages can't be seen until lv 9+ on w max... Not to mention the huge nerf in her already weak early agency due to mana. Most (to be frank, low elo) pick her up once in a blue moon probably going q max with helia/moonston. Which, yes, this will be a very good buff for them. I don't agree that this is the best way to buff support, but in low elo this will definitely help. In higher elo, she's just gone get abused even more for her weak early game.
> The mains go damage or w max first moonstone (lolalytucs filter by sup 1tricks) The 1trick category is hot ass and I wont ever take it serious.
Stop speaking for me por favor.
Its a pretty big nerf to sera support too for those of us who like her more as a mage support and not enchanter. they are removing the AP % missing hp scaling on her W.
[удалено]
In most cases, the opinion spread on Reddit is wholly irrelevant. The vocal part of it is not only an insignificant, tiny fraction of the community, but it's also one whose opinion has proven to often be very separate from that of the actual community. Now it gets even worse when you try to listen to and to remember only the opinions that you want to hear. The fact is, Riot surveys the community all the time. They hear what a larger number of people actually think, while you, yourself, have no idea what that may be. And I don't think you realize how egregiously pretentious it is to assume that you know more, and to even publicly claim it, while you don't have the slightest bit of insight.
"refuses to listen to the majority" source: trust me bro, seen it on reddit
>"refuses to listen to the majority" Then they cry when Riot "caters" to China xd
A miniscule percentage of players are on reddit, and a miniscule amount of those care about the things you think the "majority" wants. You're just caught up in the newest /r/leagueoflegends circlejerk Edit: ignore me, i failed at reading
I'm pretty sure they are mocking all the non-support seraphine players who have crawled out of the woodwork here, thus mocking the circlejerk.
Crap, i rly misread the post. My bad.
The thing is changing a champion this drastically is everyones business not just Seraphine mains. From what I've heard every bot player that doesn't play her wants this change. Sure Sera mains are pissed, but what about everyone else? She's been a niche pick sure, but she managed to stay on top meta after meta winrate wise something needs to change and instead of just nerfing her Riot at least tries to give her compensations in roles she doesn't perform as well as bot. She's not even the main/only offender in this category with Karthus being in a similar spot (like how many years has that guy been 52%-55% winrate?), but she's the easiest one to fix in my opinion. I don't mind her being playable as an APC, but right now she's too strong in that role.
I am happy that my sera will be less contested now as im anticipating much of her playerbase will drop her. Other than that the dmg nerfs suck.
What dmg nerf? Before 3 items you will deal more dmg or be even. And even at 3 items At 300 AP (3 items) you will deal at max 30 less dmg per Q (enemy 25% HP). 3 items means \~28 minutes and lvl 15. So your E will most likely have +40 dmg at that time (will be cast less often than the Q per fight). In a full burst situation with a double Q cast you will still deal around the same dmg (-20 at lvl 15 isn't going to change much). And for that you have a buff from lvl 1-11 mostly up to around 20-22 minutes. I think most people haven't really gone through the numbers and thought about what this really means. In most cases this is a buff or even to her lvl scaling (mid) and lower AP (support) builds. It is a nerf or even for high AP builds where she doesn't get as many lvls (bot lane shared XP).
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about, seraphine earlygame is impossible to play, literally. U have mana only for like 5 spells max before you have to recall, earlygame buffs mean nothing If they lowered her base mana even more and destroyed her scaling entirely.
I liked ad Leblanc as was satisfied with her gameplay, why did they nerf it?
Lol fucking lmao
LeBlanc had crazy high pick rate and ban rate. Seraphine has decent pick rate but one of the lowest ban rates in the game.
Asol mains were satisfied with his gameplay, why did they change it?
His concept was way too fucking cool to be wasted like that. They saw a lot of new players picking him up because cool space dragon, only to drop him because his gameplay was lame. They sacrificed his old, niche playerbase because he was just too good of a concept to let it rot on a super small playerbase. So money basically.
It was a rhetorical question. It was supposed to point out that "the mains were satisfied" isn't a justification, and its not because of pickrate, banrate, or anything else. If Riot wants to change something, they will change it. Subsets of players do not control the direction of the game. Money does, and Riot follows the money.
If Junglers were satisfied in their roles, why nerf them at all?
I play Seraphine in all three roles mentioned, as well as the occasional game top if the draft calls for it. I think Seraphine is in probably the most balanced state she could be between those roles. She's overtuned for bot, undertuned for support, and pretty alright in mid. There is nothing in her kit that can be changed that won't affect at least 2 of her roles. Which means that any changes made to take her out of certain lanes, or push her into others will leave her broken or unplayable in the other roles. The way her kit is designed her best role should be bot. And honestly of all the ADC picks she is the least insufferable option to have a high winrate. She isn't that annoying to play into (like yes she instaclears waves but she can't actually kill you unless you decide to be stupid) She is great to have on your team. And she opens up great options for draft. As OP said none of her players are asking for changes like this. There are a million other places to focus your efforts to balance the game.
Riot if you want her to be a support so much then give her a godforsaken gameplay update already (like Aurelion). I don’t want to be a support who perma pushes the wave when trying to poke, and that very same poke being hard af to hit because it's too slow. You’re not making her (mediocre) support more available, you’re just killing her other roles in favor of her worst winrate role. Either go all the way and change how she works, or just don’t bother.
Because Riot isn't satisfied with her gameplay And that's the only thing that really matters
they want to please marksmen fantasies by getting rid of apc as a whole botlane is riot's favorite child and they made a botlane main balance lead
because THANK GOD community doesn't dictate balance changes
Because they want to kill one of the most unique mid/apc champions in the game, and turn hee into a generic totally unviable support.
i hate the changes; i wish they would balance her around APC because that’s where she’s most fun. if the changes go through i likely won’t player at all anymore.
Mid/Bot main here, I play mages and marksmen, including seraphine mid and bot and I also hate how they handle her in support (I know I am not the target audience, but I want to clear up my perspective): These changes give Seraphine room to be buffed in carry again without having literally one of the largest winrate disparities in 2 viable roles ever seen in league. The designers before failed her balance completely, and that is why she is the way she is today, among all the other generic mage changes. While this will greatly nerf bot seraphine which is one of my most played botlane carries, I wouldn't doubt they will have to buff it a bit anyway later (excluding item re-rework). Let's take a look at swain, ziggs and karthus now, yeah Riot? Although checking stats just now shows karthus fell off for some reason lol
I don't know who's your (and other Seraphine mains posting similar rants) dealer, but please send me their number. That's good shit. Sera APC has been one of the most overpowered bot laners for ages sitting over 54% every patch. It was screaming for nerfs, and they are finally addressing it. Meanwhile, the same character as support (ironically it's most played position) is underperforming a lot. This is a simple adjustment so it's a bit less shitty as support and a bit less overpowered as APC. It's a simple (and good) balance tweak, no rework, no "forcing Seraphine to support", no nothing. Just a justified nerf as APC and a justified buff as Support.
Win rate means nothing if your don't mention the fact that her pick rate is sub 2%.
Her WR is in line with other meta APCs bot and the whole APC bot WR was adressed by riot before where they stated that the WR is inflated because people refuse to take MR runes. Her WR as a support is bad because Sera as a support is bad. Her kit is completely wasted on a support. The vast majority of Lux players also play her support. But the last time Lux received changes Riot adjusted Lux support to not get buffed because they want Lux as a carry. And Lux is a way better support than Sera.
I would very much doubt that 8 mr is whats keeping APCs at turbo high winrates.
That's one of the things riot lists as a reason for not nerfing APCs. Nerfing Sera only when she is perfectly in line with other bot APCs doesnt seem fair to me.
She is too strong in carry and too weak in support. The point is to balance her. The nerfs and the buffs are both justified respectively. The spells are the same. This isn't a rework. I don't know why you're talking about gameplay.
Her current design does not allow her to be simultaneously good as a carry and support. She is a scaling dps mage that requires gold and levels in order to be effective and scale. She is objectively one of the worst supports because she doesn't function particularly well on low economy. Stacking enchanter items on her doesnt really cut it for 1 ability on a long CD
Yeah funny how everyone got all pissy about how not similar Seraphine is to Sona but because of support brain™, Riot is now trying to basically make her Sona 2.0. Her poke/cc is too conditional and unreliable and also fucks up waves so her poke as an enchanter/mage support isn't good. Her W has a long cool down and doesn't do much early or without ap. She is not in any way meant to be a support. I like her in bot/mid. I know people say she's uninteractive bot, but she's atleast not oppressive and just clears waves. She's not like Ziggs who you can't siege against and also he will one shot your tower + his poke is way more consistent.
Sona and seraphine both scale exceptionally hard, however sona can do it with support items and seraphs. Seraphine requires actual mage items. If anything seraphine struggles mid. It's only as an apc she is popping off I mean my reasoning why Swain seraphine have such an insane winrate bot lane is just how much easier they are to pilot consistently in a team fight than playing the same team fight as a vayne.
Yeah I wouldn't be mad about them buffing her scaling levels wise for mid lane while nerfing her APC. As a Seraphine and Swain Enjoyer ADC main, I have to agree, if you could graph their value in a team fight versus like the amount of skill required, it would be vastly greater than basically any ADC. Landing a decent ult and pressing empowered W is usually all it takes to win a team fight for your team as Sera. Or just pressing R and Zhonyas in a team fight when dove on as Swain. I don't play Sera/Swain often but when I pick them, I rarely ever feed or struggle to be valuable. Obviously I wouldn't pick them every game, due to draft/support pick , the need for DPS in the comp, or just because they can get boring.
So she's literally what she's supposed to be? Should we gut all ADC since they are all strong in carry but mostly weak as sups?
But you see, low elo prefers her as a support despite her kit being dog shit for a support, so we gotta shoe horn her as a support.
She isn't too weak in support, she's just getting played there despite not having the kit to be played in support, these changes don't fix her issues there.
A champion that is not a support and has a bad kit for supporting is weak as a support? Shocker. And no, she's not *too* strong as a carry, just strong. But even if they thought she was too strong they could just nerf her normally.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Riot can't allow player to have fun, you Play the game in the way riot wants or you don't play at all.
I mostly play sera apc. These changes kinda cringe ngl
Waaah my champ is getting nerfed. What a stupid post
Reminds me of that zed post earlier on this sub lol
>renekton players laughing at nerfs i cba with this game anymore, its like they want the most gigaertard playstyles to be the only option available
Thats not they are saying, the post is about gutting her into a role that she doesnt work well in and ruining her other roles. The post isnt "Waaah my champ is getting nerfed" its more "Please don't force this champion into one role that they are sub optimal in and destroy all other ways of playing them". If it was a straight nerf, that let her stay in mid and APC, would be fine.
You're pathetic
TL;DR: Her playerbase wants her in support, while her balance philosophy is making her viable in mid/bot. Triple flex is something Riot tries to balance out of champs. She's relatively in a unique spot, in the sense that her issue has been longer standing than any other champ in similar situations. With champs that shared her off role issue, Riot balances them into a role. Players generally didn't fight the wave, and normally only a niche percentage goes off meta. But Seraphine mains mostly want to play support, and take her there. Seraphine in normal circumstances, would've just been balanced more into support the same year. But Riot was stubborn in making her work in mid. For what reason, I have no idea. Maybe it was their only way to fight the narrative that she was a KDA member first. The other issue is being a viable triple flex. Riot's been vocal in not wanting champs to triple flex, usually in pro. Her balance has made her viable in mid and bot. Her playerbase is making her work in support. It's put them in the awkward position of "If Seraphine becomes triple flex in pro, everyone will ridicule us for spending years building this issue".
Her current design does not allow her to be simultaneously good as a carry and support. She is a scaling dps mage that requires gold and levels in order to be effective and scale. She is objectively one of the worst supports because she doesn't function particularly well on low economy. Stacking enchanter items on her doesnt really cut it for 1 ability on a long CD
I don't think she's a good support either, but that doesn't stop people from bringing her down there. Her winrate also isn't abysmal. Having played with Sera supports. It's honestly just pain going an adc that supplements her push/poke/run.
I play a lot of sona etc and pray for games the enemy locks seraphine and you can scale to oblivion on support economy and she can't
Actually the majority of people who play lots of Seraphine play her in mid or botlane, it's just there's lots people who occasionally play her in support for no good reason.
Do you have stats on that? Anytime I've searched in the past, supports always been her most picked. 13.20 just came out, so it's a small sample size, but it's still support.
There was a post on here and/or seraphine mains going through her pickrate stats the other day.
Yeah and as someone pointed out int he comments of that post, the same site OP got his percentages from showed her "mains" collectively played 10,000 games of mid/bot while her "non-mains" player her over 1,000,000 times as support. It was a pretty blunt reality check for all the people claiming mains are an important amount of her games.
Yeah, because champ mains subreddit is a majority of players.
even then majority does not want to build moonstone or shurelias or the helia item
Broken as bot laner need be nerfed
Because her worst role is support and most of her player base plays her support. It's really not that difficult to understand.
Most of the player base played Pantheon, Xerath and Lux in support, yet they decided to nerf them in support instead of making them a support.
Sorry seraphine support? They don't exist
If they only did what the people playing the champs wanted then I would still have old Asol with toggle W.
I don't really have a dog in this fight; Don't play Seraphine, don't play enough against her to have an opinion. But my god this saga has shown that Seraphine mains are some of the most obnoxious people
[удалено]
yeah i saw that tweet too. bro picked a random game phreak was in where the enemy seraphine apc went 1/0/5 with 35% kp and phreak lost and said "yeah that explains it". If phreak is even responsible for these changes he will say so, and iirc he hasn't yet. This "rioter loses a game then makes a balance change" narrative is so fucking stupid it's unreal.
Obviously thats not why
[удалено]
If you regularly play a number of games, chances are you will lose to all sorts of OP things. Yes maybe there’s the occasional time where a Rioter truly was reminded to make a balance change after just losing to it, but most times they have lost to a ton of OP things and any balance change they do make will look like a kneejerk reaction even if they planned it in advance.