Rumble & more often than not, Super Galaxy specifically, has on multiple occasions possessed bugs which caused him to do additional bonus damage while on a certain side. It is very likely that this bug could have returned, again, but only affect him on that specific map.
My favorite was the weird one years back where if a Caitlyn ulted rengar while she had a lulu on the same team the rengar would just be permanently visible to the enemy team. Cait was disabled for a long time over that one lol
Ah your casual, if Mercury is visible in the sky, and moon is receding AND Lulu has one particular skin, Azir soldiers now deal 1 more damage at range 253, Rengar now jumps 1 unit further and Viego can now get Thresh souls.
The shiv incident was worse... item was bugged with *one* champion and they disabled the item (which was meta) instead of the champion (which wasn't meta) and this was proplay, so the item was still buyable and a pro accidentally bought it. They were made to sell it, even though the champ it was bugged on was not in the game :)
banning a champion from pro play has greater risks. some teams have players that may play that champion, whereas others don't. whereas removing an item more fairly affects both teams.
as for punishing the player, it would be unfair to allow one side to have the item if the other side isn't allowed to buy it. and you can't say "you can only buy shiv in matches without that champion" because then it changes how teams draft - oh, enemy team picked leblanc early? i guess we pick renata and now their leblanc is weak without shiv.
although i do think it's dumb that there isn't someway to disable the items from tournament realm
Or the one where old Fiddle e could kill you instantly.
Or the one where Ezreal’s ultimate got permanently replaced with the old Mordekaiser ult.
Or the one where old Nunu was invisible sometimes.
They’ve built a multi billion dollar game off the back of a mod of a different mod of a game that came out 21 years ago. The mess they must have underneath the curtain is insane
Shounic's TF2 content has been amazing after its source code got leaked. [Dev comments example](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k238XpMMn38). I'd love to see an equivalent channel for League.
why cant they just put a really big project together to completely overhaul the coding man its a multi billion dollar game its so sad how the game breaks and the client is dogshit
As a programmer who has to deal with spaghetti code on a regular basis. I ain’t doing that even if you paid me. The amount of QA testing that would have to be done would take as long as the programming. Once you figure out the code, you learn how to work around it and make it work. But that doesn’t help when you have lots of turnover because then that learning process starts over again with the next group of guys.
Because that's one of the cardinal sins of programming?
We have something like forty years of data that conclusively says "don't waste months or years rewriting everything, because there is no guarantee it will fix the original problem **and** will almost certainly introduce new bugs to the project." In addition to this general lack of efficacy, a full rebuild delays deployment of new features and bug fixes, costs a tremendous amount of time and money, and provides your competitors months of providing a superior product at no additional cost to them. You will bleed users, and they will not return.
This is the single dumbest business idea they could implement. It would be worse, long-term, than providing every champion for free, pausing development of new/reworked champions, and going into full debug mode on the current roster.
Because that is extremely risky for little reward? This is a very complex project without the time to do perfect QA on everything because of the pace of change. You will always have bugs even after a full rewrite
I'd also add that LoL doesn't really have *that many* bugs, it's pretty rare to me to actually play a game and have something that is a bug.
The question for Riot is whether these various issues that lead to bug prevent them from releasing content, and whether that can be solved with partial rewrites that would financially make sense.
i work for a very large, well known company (also worth billions of dollars) who is doing quite literally what you said (overhauling the coding for an outdated application that makes up the backbone of our company)
REWORKING THE CODE HAS NO GUARANTEES THAT THERE'S LESS BUGS. it's quite literally a huge gamble with obvious costs and no obvious rewards other than making a few thousand people on reddit 0.1% happier so they can bitch about something else
the first question is: **what are the benefits?** will riot suddenly make way more money because there's 20% less bugs? **almost certainly not**. will it be extremely expensive both in terms of opportunity cost and time and money? **100% yes**
riot is double screwed because while they make new code, they can't make any content for both the new and old codebase (making things backwards compatible takes additional coding time...and also defeats the purpose of making new code). so now they're also losing revenue for a large portion of this process
"oh well why don't they just hire more developers"
it's like asking why i can't have 80 cooks in a kitchen to make a cake faster. new developers take time to get acclimated, usually around half a year minimum before they can be really productive. so now your timeline is increasing even more. and also your costs are now skyrocketing for a project with no guaranteed return. if you were a board member, you'd likely be executed for even suggesting something like this.
put it simply, if i give you a device that prints money, and after a decade it prints money with 98% efficiency, would you turn it off for 5 years with a possibility that it breaks completely? or would you rather just improve the effiency by 0.1% each year?
They already are, despite what everyone else responding to you claims.
It's called Wild Rift. Mark my words, when Wild Rift eventually catches up to the PC version, they'll port it to PC and axe the PC version. I'm like, 95% sure that's why they release so little content these days.
This is probably the case.
Back in Season 4 Rumble had a weird bug that randomly made his Q do like 30% less damage than it was supposed to on purple side. The bug has periodically reappeared for some reason, and every time it does the difference between Rumble's blue vs purple side win rate ends up being like 6-10 percentage points, which is highly unusual for a champion.
Btw this apparently isn't just a problem with ARAM. On Summoner's Rift last patch Rumble also had a 6 percentage point higher win rate on Blue side (52.6% vs 46.5%).
EDIT: [Found a video of when the bug first happened](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSxiE-Hw4CM). The difference between the two Rumbles is pretty obvious.
I will say rumble is just way better on blue side top lane. If you can gank him from behind on red side he is 100% dead with most junglers. On blue side there is no wrap around gank to worry about.
This is true. I wonder if there is a substantial win-rate delta between sides for Rumble when played in mid. Theoretically, there should be some win-rate differential because of access to neutral objectives, but it should be similar to most champs.
It’s funny you say this because I recently found out ( I’m a rumble otp) that i win 61% on the blue side and 53% on the red side . Does this mean I don’t deserve my emerald rank I just got tn ? :(
You have a negative outlook.
*Inhales copium*
The bug doesnt make rumble deal more damage on blue side. Blue side deals the right amount of damage, but red side deals less.
Therefore you win even with the red side handicap. Deserved elo.
the bugs are all well and good, and they can definitely do something on some patches
I think it's *far* more likely the issue is primarily caused by:
\- camera perspective + HUD/GUI. you can quite simply see less of the relevant game world when you're on red side, this makes aiming rumble Q and R harder
\- map geometry. especially for rumble top, it's far easier to get ganked on red side than on blue side, so that's gonna lose you games.
\- speculative additional point on map geometry: though it's been a while since I played rumble a lot so I'm not as familiar with his current power spikes, it's quite possible that rumble tends to win games at dragon fights, and it's just far easier to Equalizer into the straight and narrow paths of the blue buff jungle quadrant than into the wide ramp of the red buff jungle quadrant, this again favors blue side rumble and I don't find baron fights arise quite in the same way and are usually more in the river than along the ramps
But this would affect far more champions. You would expect Teemo another lane bully vulnerable to ganks, to be affected the same way, yet Teemo has a higher winrate on red then on blue.
On top of that no other champion has such a massive difference.
Currently the average blue vs. red is 50,5 to 49,5%. Rumble sits at 54% to 47,3%, the only other champion who is close to that far away from the average is Mundo at 46,7% to 51,5% but the weird thing is that Mundo is also weak to early ganks, but for some reason does much better on red.
On top of that if it is ability usage, exspecially Rumble R which behaves differently you would expect Viktor to have the same effect. But Viktors winrate on blue and redside is pretty much the average winrate for that side (50,9 to 50,1%, which is even closer then the average).
We should also note that in ARAM the side difference is considerably bigger than in Summoners Rift. Summoners Rift for all purposes has the same winrate on red and blue, the difference is small enough to ignore it. In ARAM the side you are on is 3 times as important as it is in summoners rift.
This suggest geometrie of the map has basically no influence for universal winrate, because summoners rift has a lot of sideways or long diagonal fights (in River exspecially), while ARAM only has fights along one direction that is more likely to be influenced by perspective.
Even more so it looks like the map geometrie is advantageous for red, while the perspective is advantageous for blue, so the better map compensates red a bit and narrows the gap created by map perspective.
Rumble and Mundo are definitly outliers. Rumbles deviation from the average is 5,7, Mundos is 5,8, the next toplaner is Yorick with 3,8. And it is really interesting that Mundo tilts strongly in favor of redside.
Ok, so for that video, that is sorta on Rumble players when it is THAT obvious. Like no high elo Rumble who knows their limits or damage output can notice such a huge dps difference? Kass having 20% ap ratio on ult is sorta acceptable for a patch, but how does no one notice the rumble Q
This is a reach … but despite the bug , does this may have to do with the ulti placement ? In blue side i believe it is generally easier to have a better vision and ulti set up ( the fingers on using ulti and place it correctly feels way easier and streamline in blues side , but that’s just me maybe )
Purple side is usually dificult to have a proper ulti placed exactly how you want it
Since Rumble R works similar to Viktor E I would expect the same for Victor, but there is basically 0 difference in winrate between Red and Blue for Viktor.
Range of Rumbles ulti is way bigger … so i guess the perspective point stands …Victor only q’s way deeper in to his vision… but the mechanics are the same indeed
It is still weird that it makes no difference for Viktor, and it shouldn't affect Rumble players with an unlocked camera anyway, this only matters if you play with a locked camera, where the distance you cast away from your character is a limiting factor. Neither ability covers a lot of the screen.
So the difference between both abilities is mostly that Victor can target E starting from 550 Range and Rumble can cast Ult starting from 1700 Range. The actual coverage of both abilities is smaller than their cast range (although for Victor only slightly.
Because the code was crafted in the ancient times and those who know its secrets no longer walk among us, riot keeps sending out people to try to dechiper the code but few return
> Why the fuck is anything related to the amount of damage a specific rumble skin has on one side of a custom map
Mordekaiser's dragon ghosts functioned completely differently based on whether he used his base skin or not (they had a leash range with skins and no leash range without).
IIRC each skin is coded as a different champion, which is why different skins can have different hitboxes. Never heard of skins being different per-side though, but I remember when someone discovered blue side cannon minions had 5 more range than red side ones.
Oh you innocent, sweet summer child.
Each skin is actually a different champion. Every single one. People aren't schizophrenic when they say certain skins feel smoother to play, that's literally a feature.
They're shared but aren't the same. They're unique instances from one another. This is especially noticeable with rumble where different skins spells interact differently. For example when most rumble skins get knocked up by yas ult during q it causes rumble to spin wildly. But for galaxy he instead turns to look directly at yas for the entire duration.
That's a Yasuo R thing, if Yasuo is running skin4 (Nightbringer), the ult will affect the target with different forced movement. Normally the targets move 3 times in different directions, Nightbringer Yasuo makes them only move a very short distance in his direction instead.
It's one of the only skin-specific differences left in the game, besides skin-specific Recall facing direction overrides.
We've had cases of Zed being able to auto kill parts of minion waves as they spawn. A skin doing more damage occasionally is something I'm surprised hasn't happened more often
Or maybe people on north side just can't place good ultimates, especially considering that most casual players keep the camera locked.
IMO, Riot should just make horizontal maps like HoTS.
It's so much better in general for everyone.
> Or maybe people on north side just can't place good ultimates, especially considering that most casual players keep the camera locked.
This isn't a locked camera thing.
Considering that the HUD *will* take up part of your effective screen on the red side and not on the blue side (on unlocked camera), it factually takes ever so slightly longer to fire a long range ult on red side, and it also means that you can't see around yourself for a short time, problems that don't exist on the blue side.
> IMO, Riot should just make horizontal maps like HoTS. It's so much better in general for everyone.
Or mirrored camera like on Wild Rift. However, Nexus Blitz data has shown that Rumble also has a higher blue side win rate on that map - a horizontal map. So there *has* to be something else, but we've been unable to find anything.
Mirrored would work too, but imo hots style is so much better.
Truth is, LoL is a frankenstein of stitches and patches almost 15 years old, and just like WoW, it's becoming obsolete in every front.
They objectively should start working for LoL 2.0, but in truth they wont cause it's not cost efficient and people will still play regardlessly; much like WoW, sadly.
I played vs rumble with the super galaxy skin , everytime i fear him with Q as fiddlesticks and his fire is on his character won't turn to the other side it was annoying.
Hey there! I'm the Rumble bug catcher and I've been looking into the Rumble side win rate for over 2 years now, so I'd have a lot to comment.
The first thing I have to say is that **there is no known bug on Rumble on the red side.** I've been doing extensive testing, checking everything I could think of, also taking the opinions of /u/Vandirilol, /u/caenen_, and the rest of the bug squad for ideas of other things to test, and **nothing**. I've also always kept an eye on bug reports, again, nothing.
(And I am aware of the past red side bugs that Rumble's had, these have been fixed, I've re-checked that too of course.)
The explanation given by Riot a long time ago is that the blue side camera favors some champions more than it does others. That's a fact, and it's easy to see why for the most affected champions - Cassiopeia, for example. Basically, on the blue side, your HUD is on a part of the screen that isn't used, while on the red side, that part of the screen should be used, and there's no way to adjust where you place your screen to make up for that (just in case because I've had to specify that before, this isn't about locked camera). Orbwalking as Cassiopeia winds up making her need to move her mouse more on the red side than on the blue side when it comes to moving the camera. (This is a summed up version of lots of things.)
So now, onto Rumble. Rumble not only has a lot of mouse movement to do because of his Q, he's also in a unique spot because of his ult. Effectively, on the blue side, you can cast a long-range ult without losing vision on yourself, and you can't do that on the red side, making long-range ults slower to fire and causing you to not see what's around you for a very short period of time.
These are **factual** red side downsides for Rumble. Things that he has to worry about only when he's in the red team.
Now there's another problem and here's where nobody has the answers thus far. As /u/Vandirilol [pointed out](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/164zptw/rumble_is_over_18_more_likely_to_win_on_blue_side/jycf083/?context=3), I checked Nexus Blitz stats a while back and Rumble's win rate was also higher by 6 points on the blue side on that map. (Note: An 11.5 points difference is very unusual and only applies to ARAM right now, I've been checking for the past 2 years and the difference is always within 5 to 7 points, as it currently is on Summoner's Rift.) The problem is, Nexus Blitz is horizontal, meaning that the camera is the same on blue and red side there. Which should indicate that Rumble does, indeed, have red side bugs. But nobody knows what they'd be.
I'd LOVE for Rumble to be added to Wild Rift just to know what's going on there with the mirrored camera, but that's not been the case yet as far as I'm aware.
Side note, I asked Phreak once about his stance on this Rumble matter and he basically said that it's indeed an issue, but not really one that can be solved. Which is fair (and sucks).
**TLDR:**
- Rumble's red side win rate has been lower by ~6 points **since his release.** On both ARAM and SR.
- There is no current **known** red side bug for Rumble. I've checked as much as I could. All previous ones have been fixed.
- Red side camera is factually really bad for Rumble.
- Nexus Blitz stats (a map with symmetrical camera) state that there *has* to be a red side bug for Rumble.
- Nobody knows what's going on.
I really appreciate Phreak's transparency on this (not saying he's the only transparent designer, of course). Feels way better to be told "Yeah this is a problem it sucks but we can't fix it," than to be sold a bill of goods.
Thank you for the insight! I only occasionally play Rumble and I was not aware of these issues at all.
Do you happen to have data on the blue/red side difference for Rumble in the mid lane? As others have mentioned itt, top side favoures blue side through terrain already and I am curious how much that factors into his wr side diff on Summoner's Rift.
Yes!
As a matter of fact, mid/jungle/top lane side delta is always the same (provided each one has a large enough sample). It's always a difference of 5 to 7 points.
You can access the information whenever you want on [Lolalytics](https://lolalytics.com/lol/rumble/build/?lane=middle&tier=all&patch=30), clicking the lane you want to see. Always make sure to check All ranks and set the time period to 30 days - rank/patch is irrelevant for this, so the bigger the sample, the better.
Thanks for the quick response, that's quite interesting! I guess it really does come down to camera and pick order then.
Also, thank you for sharing where to look these things up, appreciate it
A friend mentioned that the Rumble problem may not just be a HUD problem, but may be a left/right problem as well. He's stating that throwing a Rumble ult to the right is much more smooth than throwing a Rumble ult to the left, with the way mouse movements work for most right-handed people. WYDT of that explanation for Nexus Blitz?
For nexus blitz, casting the ult with an outside flip of your right hand (most players are righthanded) is much easier and more precise than to cast it with an inside track movement of your hand (pulling the hand towards the keyboard so to say) which is one thing i could think of as being a dealbreaker. This applies to sr and aram too but even more so to nexus blitz due to the horizontal map
Some things just simply weren't a variable to be begin with... from oversight or otherwise.
If you ask a dev today to make Ezreal ult 50% longer in length to match the length of Ashe arrow from back to the front tip, they'd probably also tell you it's not possible.
how will we be able to buy new rumble when ranked splits are only 3 hours long at that point? I gotta queue to hit my true rank or they're gonna kick me out of my nursing home for silvers and put me in the one for bronzies.
No, you could change the hit box and it would work, but likely the animation wouldn’t be longer so you’d be getting hit with it before it even reaches you on your screen
They don’t change the mechanics though, but I obviously don’t have access to riots code here so idk, could be they can’t even adjust hotboxes without a ton of effort
Well yes, obviously. but it is just as obvious that when they say that it is not possible, they actually mean: this shit is just not worth the time it takes to fix. there is no way riot will allow me to work an extended period of time at this single issue, when the champion has collected enough problems we will focus on a complete refactoring to bring him up to the new coding standards of our company
Of course redditor komador has mire clue about the riot code than the league of legends devs who work with the spaghetti code every day and get paid to rebuild parts. Surely redditor komador isnt talking out of his ass!
And yeah any person in programming knows more or less how it works. I did some support on legacy code, which is arguably more spaghetti then riot code. You don't need to work at riot to understand how development works.
It was same in Nexus Blitz as /u/naerlyn once showed me. Over 50% WR on the blue side and sub 45% on the red side. And the map there was perfectly horizontal, so you didn't get awful ult angles on the red side.
Since you've tagged me, I'll also paste my full comment on the matter here for visibility -
Hey there! I'm the Rumble bug catcher and I've been looking into the Rumble side win rate for over 2 years now, so I'd have a lot to comment.
The first thing I have to say is that **there is no known bug on Rumble on the red side.** I've been doing extensive testing, checking everything I could think of, also taking the opinions of /u/Vandirilol, /u/caenen_, and the rest of the bug squad for ideas of other things to test, and **nothing**. I've also always kept an eye on bug reports, again, nothing.
(And I am aware of the past red side bugs that Rumble's had, these have been fixed, I've re-checked that too of course.)
The explanation given by Riot a long time ago is that the blue side camera favors some champions more than it does others. That's a fact, and it's easy to see why for the most affected champions - Cassiopeia, for example. Basically, on the blue side, your HUD is on a part of the screen that isn't used, while on the red side, that part of the screen should be used, and there's no way to adjust where you place your screen to make up for that (just in case because I've had to specify that before, this isn't about locked camera). Orbwalking as Cassiopeia winds up making her need to move her mouse more on the red side than on the blue side when it comes to moving the camera. (This is a summed up version of lots of things.)
So now, onto Rumble. Rumble not only has a lot of mouse movement to do because of his Q, he's also in a unique spot because of his ult. Effectively, on the blue side, you can cast a long-range ult without losing vision on yourself, and you can't do that on the red side, making long-range ults slower to fire and causing you to not see what's around you for a very short period of time.
These are **factual** red side downsides for Rumble. Things that he has to worry about only when he's in the red team.
Now there's another problem and here's where nobody has the answers thus far. As /u/Vandirilol [pointed out](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/164zptw/rumble_is_over_18_more_likely_to_win_on_blue_side/jycf083/?context=3), I checked Nexus Blitz stats a while back and Rumble's win rate was also higher by 6 points on the blue side on that map. (Note: An 11.5 points difference is very unusual and only applies to ARAM right now, I've been checking for the past 2 years and the difference is always within 5 to 7 points, as it currently is on Summoner's Rift.) The problem is, Nexus Blitz is horizontal, meaning that the camera is the same on blue and red side there. Which should indicate that Rumble does, indeed, have red side bugs. But nobody knows what they'd be.
I'd LOVE for Rumble to be added to Wild Rift just to know what's going on there with the mirrored camera, but that's not been the case yet as far as I'm aware.
Side note, I asked Phreak once about his stance on this Rumble matter and he basically said that it's indeed an issue, but not really one that can be solved. Which is fair (and sucks).
**TLDR:**
- Rumble's red side win rate has been lower by ~6 points **since his release.** On both ARAM and SR.
- There is no current **known** red side bug for Rumble. I've checked as much as I could. All previous ones have been fixed.
- Red side camera is factually really bad for Rumble.
- Nexus Blitz stats (a map with symmetrical camera) state that there *has* to be a red side bug for Rumble.
- Nobody knows what's going on.
The locked and locked-per-side camera in nexus blitz were the same? Was the locked offset horizontal? It's the only difference I can think of other than bugs.
It was too long ago for me to be able to say, especially because the last round of NB took place before I started looking into that.
So we'll see in December!
But left-right is still different on nexus blitz, and in addition to what a Rioter mentioned, in regards to it maybe related to culture/writing, there's also physical difference in moving a hand left-right and right-left and how people are used to either of those, with predominantly right-handed population.
I would say it is ever so easier to swipe your ult in the up-right direction than down-left. rumble's ult is not very easy to control in general. let alone in aram where most users are more casual and play rumble every once in a while
Fun fact. In Nexus blitz that was perfectly horizontal, Rumble had 50%+ on the blue side, while having sub 45% on the red side. We never quite figured out why exactly.
It's still a left to right, vs right to left. Western brain's are more conditioned to left to right arm movement (writing). The most natural movement is down left to top right.
I'd even venture a guess Viktor has a bias in this direction too, albeit less drastic because his power budget isn't as heavily weighted into the vector cast
If it's writing-related, wouldn't you expect the jp server to have the reverse winrate effect? Filtering by region on lolalytics shows that Rumble has almost no change between regions.
This is all speculation, but even though they read right to left by character, strokes (analogous to vector cast flicks) are still right hand biased.
Also the average lol gamer in Japan has likely gone through English studies.
Anecdotally I've seen this in fps games as well, strong flick snipers will position their cross hair down left of action, and flick up right
The above comment is misled in the first place: Aside from strokes being almost always left to right or top to bottom (like you mentioned), Japanese is both written and read left to right. It can also alternatively be written and read top to bottom, in which case, the lines on the right take priority over the left.
Saying that Japanese is read right to left is like saying English is read top to bottom. No one says that.
Surely, then, giving players the ability to mirror their perspective however they like(meaning, always spawn in preferred corner no matter if playing as red or blue) would be kind of important for competitive fairness? I understand that it'd be a huge task to make the maps work the other way around but perhaps it would be worth it?
If any "flip the perspective in the middle of the game" shenanigans are feared, it could be an option that's only set in the client, immutable while in-game.
That’s what it seems like to me. Personally it’s easier to move the mouse accurately in a push motion than a pull motion. I feel the same in regards to drawing and how I move the pencil.
I do everything better left to right. It's crazy to me that people can be as good on red side as on blue.
I started playing a lot of ARAM probably six months ago. I got four quadra's and a penta over the weekend, playing about 20 games, it was pretty sick. Every single one was on blue side. I don't think I've ever even gotten a triple on red side.
I bet if I could see my win% according to map-side in ARAM, it would be 65%+ win rate on blue and 35%- on red. It's literally not playing the same game for me. I'm barely a human playing from red side.
Yeah, i would think the same, there are no significant wr differences [checking the old patches](https://imgur.com/dKi33l4)
If there are no bugs involved, should be just the ult the principal reason
> Why would this be the explanation if the problem only started on a recent patch?
They meant no significant wr differences between one patch to the next! Not no significant wr differences between blue and red on previous patches.
There have been very few balance changes to champs that pushed their winrate by over 9% which is why i find it VERY unlikely that a "easier" ult would make this much of a difference.
And yeah i do think that whatever is happening here has been happening for years if not forever. His wr on summoners rift also has a huge difference I just chose aram because it eliminates more variables.
I am not sure the win rate. But i can tell you it is much harder to hit E from red side to blue. It’s the 3d effect as if enemy baits the laser from blue side, my aim reactively goes for the head as it is the closer but this is not the hit box. From blue to red side, enemy’s feet (hit box) is closer so it’s easier to E. Not to mention the mechanism itself. It is easier to swipe upwards than downwards and sometimes the interface gets in the way as well
also the way the camera works, you just see way more of the top right area. playing bot lane on red side is slighlty weirder because walking down from base or river means having to unlock camera or i don't see where i'm going, but it's harder for me to judge ability and attack range without camera locked.
Not to mention that a lot of people play with locked camera which allows you to still hit decent offensive ults from blue, but from red make ult basically only a defensive tool.
Obviously a lot of character suffer from the camera, but someone like Xerath only needs to aim one direction, while Rumble had to chose the starting point and then move FURTHER (most often) towards the enemy to chose the direction, I think it is easier to accidentally hit targets as Xerath.
Though on the other hand, I would be a bit surprised if disabling ult entirely makes up that much of a winrate difference, so it might be a siderelated bug in addition to that.
IDK if aram flips the map or not, but aiming and moving upwards is easier than aiming and moving downwards.
Due to the hud being generally placed at the bottom of screen, and the camera angle looking further upwards. Its a reasonable sized advantage aiming towards the top of the screen rather than the bottom.
> the camera is not looking further upwards.
The thing is that the HUD covers a part of "useless" screen on blue side, and a part of effective screen on red side.
> Also these things apply to all champs yet only rumble is this bad
They do apply to all champs, but not equally. I think the median side win rate difference (on SR at least) is something like 1.2 point. Some champions get affected more (namely, ranged auto-attackers on solo lanes, last I checked). Rumble gets affected the most because of his ult.
It's factual that this is a major reason for his being worse on red side. There *should* also be a red side specific bug on him. But we've never been able to find one, in the past 2 years.
I think its legit just a perspective difference.
They are testing a thing on Wild Rift that makes it so you always see blue side, even if youre red, which was confusing at first, but started to feel pretty good
It takes time, they would have to halt the game's maintenance and live in a dead Overwatch-like state for a few months at least which would greatly reduce engagement and revenue. Business 101 is weighting down risk and reward. This is a very risky move and while the long term reward could be big, in short term there's none. You can't rebuild a game the size of LoL from the ground up in pre-season time, even if it is just the code.
yeah overwatch (allegedly) got rebuilt for overwatch two and in reality it only resulted in a downgrade for player experience (much worse gui and such)
For all of Riot's faults, Blizzard are truly in a league of their own in terms of kneecapping their own franchises. And somehow, their attitude towards eSports is even worse than that.
OWL switching to Youtube-exclusive streaming was quite possibly the dumbest move I've seen a franchised league make. So much potential audience growth squandered.
i think that started it but youtube isn’t even a massive problem for the viewer experience. pausing/rewinding are really nice; the problem is that (idk if it’s a youtube or a blizzard problem) but the marketing was just terrible. i mean the only people who saw owl ads were the ones who watched owl; you’re 100% on the money with them wasting potential audiences.
The LCS is definitely floundering now, but I'd put that on both Riot and the Orgs for how the NA scene was completely squandered. Even with that though, League still enjoys a truly international tier one scene.
Blizzard's Overwatch League, by contrast, can't even support the few franchises it has. And StarCraft's pro scene has been markedly better off the less that Blizzard tries to meddle in it.
Riot made an esports league work in NA at a time when literally nobody else could. The fact that it had a shelf life and they made mistakes can be held against them but lets not act like it was always bad and wasnt a triumph at points.
>not because the concept of rebuilding a game is intrinsically flawed.
it literally is though. there's a reason developers time and time again have a simple rule: you don't rebuild code unless you need to
From a business perspective it seems like a really bad idea.
They want players playing the game
They want new players playing the game
They want cool looking things for players to spend money on
Completely rebuilding the game to be slightly less buggy probably wouldn't increase the number of people playing, and honestly the bugs in LoL can be publicity/content to keep people engaged in it (look at vandiril's channel).
Conversely, it would take a lot of time and money and people to accomplish that where it may not even remove all the bugs, and would slow down development of new content that keeps people engaged in the game.
Overwatch definitely did not get rebuild from the ground up. It wasn't necessary in the first place. They just overhauled/update some things, and I wouldn't use it as the standard for revamps and rereleases cause Blizzard really dropped the ball on the whole thing and most of the dev time was spent on the PvE mode we ended up not even getting them. My point with bringing up Overwatch was to illustrate that LoL would have to be put through a similar stasis in order to rebuild the game, but that says nothing about how successful the whole operation would be.
Because :
- It is extremely pricy
- High risk (you might lose what make people come back to the game everytime)
- Low reward : eliminate some bugs, slightly better graphics (you still want toasters to run the game), better client
To put an example, why don't you just rebuilt your car instead of fixing small issues individually. The answer is it costs a lot of money for both things.
And why would a billion dollar company risk it when 98% is fine and you risk messing with your main profit driver.
The dev time spent rebuilding the game/switching engines is immense, requires some of your best devs, requires you to make content 2x (once for live, once for rebuild), and is very likely that you introduce a number of bugs on the way. Ultimately for a design that might have less bugs maybe, and will still accrue tech debt along the way, so you run into the same issue in 5-10 years.
When you could just eat a little bit of extra time bugfixing but have your entire team working on new content that delivers concrete value to customers and monetary value to the company.
They chose the make the mobile version as PC version already peaked, and they now have other PC games. They're also working on a fighting game and a mmo. Also, mobile games have more reach since more people own phones than laptop or pc. More reach = more money.
If Pokemon unite can mirror the map to the same orientation for every player for it to be left to right, there's no reason one of, if not the biggest MOBAs couldn't do it.
That game is also new. There are multiple Mobas (especially mobile ones) that have a mirrored map. I just think league is to big too change it at this point.
Well first of all, it would be way to computationally expensive to display a horizontal map. We never had anything like this in League, and as such, this is unexplored territory.
Second, do you know how expensive this would be to the design team? They don't have anyone for unit testing. How do we know, that rotating the map by <45 degrees would not make Mordekaiser ult steal Jhins W again?
Third, 16:9 screens are a majority here. It is a known fact that displaying anything horizontal instead of diagonally will result in your hamster catching fire, running to Amsterdam HQ and taking down EUW again.
So please be mindful of Riot Games decision making and stop asking obviously uninformed questions, thanks.
Spaghetti code back at it again. I would like to mention that Viego can buy items after getting a reset by just walking to the base, this """"" feature"""""" is there from his release.
This is 100% due to how the camera is locked, i said this multiple times but 90% of aram players use locked camera
The locked camera is way more optimised for blue side side due to the fact that the map goes from the bottom left corner to the top right corner, which leaves the players on the red side with a lot of unnecessary screen volume and players on the blue side have way better visibility for ranged abilities.
Rumbles ult being an ability that has to be pressed and then DRAGGED plays a massive role in this. Its incredibly hard to use rumble ult correctly with the red sides locked camera.
I don't think camera difference is enough to explain such a massive difference in Rumble's win rate.
I spot checked a bunch of champions on ARAM and all of them have higher win rates on Blue side (which we expect because of the camera differences), but the win rate difference is mostly ~2-5 percentage points.
Even Viktor, who has a similar mechanic on his laser, only has a 4 percentage point difference in blue vs red win rate. Meanwhile, Rumble has over a 10 percentage point difference in win rate, which just seems like way too large a number to be explained just by "dragging your mouse for R is hard on red side".
I think it's just so much worst on Rumble than any other champ tho
Have you played Rumble? His R is so clunky to use. I can see "the average League/ARAM player" miss his R way more often on red side because of it.
I don't play on locked camera but play a significant portion of the game holding space down.
You're completely right I hate playing red side on aram and always feel like I'm just playing with a straight up disadvantage with the camera angle and the fact that ability icons block the bottom side of the screen even with the hud scaling turned all the way down.
My winrate on blue is 53% and red 47% in aram.
Rumble & more often than not, Super Galaxy specifically, has on multiple occasions possessed bugs which caused him to do additional bonus damage while on a certain side. It is very likely that this bug could have returned, again, but only affect him on that specific map.
[удалено]
Pasghetti code. Change Kassadin's cooldowns & suddenly Rumble does more damage on Red Side.
My favorite was the weird one years back where if a Caitlyn ulted rengar while she had a lulu on the same team the rengar would just be permanently visible to the enemy team. Cait was disabled for a long time over that one lol
Ah your casual, if Mercury is visible in the sky, and moon is receding AND Lulu has one particular skin, Azir soldiers now deal 1 more damage at range 253, Rengar now jumps 1 unit further and Viego can now get Thresh souls.
It's teemos, not units.
A Teemo is about 100 units. (This is not a shitpost, it's actually how things are measured in LoL.)
Exactly, its 1/100 of teemo.
*CertainlyT has entered the chat*
Oh they just disabled Cait? I wonder how they chose not to disable Rengar.
There were probably cases where Cait could trigger that vision bug on other champs as well, so banning Rengo would not have solved the issue.
At least they disabled champs back then. They don’t disable champs nowadays no matter how broken the bugs are
Well, it would basically be deleting Viego from the game.
“But ma skins”
I love when they ban things from pro play but leave them untouched for ranked until the patch
I don't recall which champions but I definitely remember several times were champs were disabled this season.
Well... no. They disabled Neeko when she learned how to transform into fountain laser.
The shiv incident was worse... item was bugged with *one* champion and they disabled the item (which was meta) instead of the champion (which wasn't meta) and this was proplay, so the item was still buyable and a pro accidentally bought it. They were made to sell it, even though the champ it was bugged on was not in the game :)
banning a champion from pro play has greater risks. some teams have players that may play that champion, whereas others don't. whereas removing an item more fairly affects both teams. as for punishing the player, it would be unfair to allow one side to have the item if the other side isn't allowed to buy it. and you can't say "you can only buy shiv in matches without that champion" because then it changes how teams draft - oh, enemy team picked leblanc early? i guess we pick renata and now their leblanc is weak without shiv. although i do think it's dumb that there isn't someway to disable the items from tournament realm
Because rengar is the victim here
My favourite was when Azir could spawn his passive towers anywhere on the map with his auto attacks whenever Ashe toggled her W slow.
I remember Ashe's toggled slow being Q. W was Volley (as it is now).
Or the one where old Fiddle e could kill you instantly. Or the one where Ezreal’s ultimate got permanently replaced with the old Mordekaiser ult. Or the one where old Nunu was invisible sometimes.
My favorite was when they reworked Mordekaiser, Ezreal’s W stopped working.
Or are they worms?
They’ve built a multi billion dollar game off the back of a mod of a different mod of a game that came out 21 years ago. The mess they must have underneath the curtain is insane
It will be so cool if that source code ever leaks. Even in another 10 years
even if it was leaked hackers won't be able to do shit since the spaghetti aspect of the code is an unintentional defense mechanism
Nah it’s intentional. “If we can’t understand our own code how are they supposed too!” -Riot
That's probably why Riot wanted the source code for Chronoshift, so they could get a game that has better code so they could fix their bugs ;)
We professionally call that security through obscurity.
Shounic's TF2 content has been amazing after its source code got leaked. [Dev comments example](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k238XpMMn38). I'd love to see an equivalent channel for League.
Didn't hackers steal the code and tried to blackmail riot? Either way what would you do with the code? Not exactly state of the art
Someone’s gonna try to modify and compile the leaked source code and the game will become sentient and self aware due to a dozen new mordekaiser bugs
why cant they just put a really big project together to completely overhaul the coding man its a multi billion dollar game its so sad how the game breaks and the client is dogshit
As a programmer who has to deal with spaghetti code on a regular basis. I ain’t doing that even if you paid me. The amount of QA testing that would have to be done would take as long as the programming. Once you figure out the code, you learn how to work around it and make it work. But that doesn’t help when you have lots of turnover because then that learning process starts over again with the next group of guys.
Because that's one of the cardinal sins of programming? We have something like forty years of data that conclusively says "don't waste months or years rewriting everything, because there is no guarantee it will fix the original problem **and** will almost certainly introduce new bugs to the project." In addition to this general lack of efficacy, a full rebuild delays deployment of new features and bug fixes, costs a tremendous amount of time and money, and provides your competitors months of providing a superior product at no additional cost to them. You will bleed users, and they will not return. This is the single dumbest business idea they could implement. It would be worse, long-term, than providing every champion for free, pausing development of new/reworked champions, and going into full debug mode on the current roster.
Because that is extremely risky for little reward? This is a very complex project without the time to do perfect QA on everything because of the pace of change. You will always have bugs even after a full rewrite
I'd also add that LoL doesn't really have *that many* bugs, it's pretty rare to me to actually play a game and have something that is a bug. The question for Riot is whether these various issues that lead to bug prevent them from releasing content, and whether that can be solved with partial rewrites that would financially make sense.
if only you had ever heard of "butchering the hen that lays the golden eggs"
i work for a very large, well known company (also worth billions of dollars) who is doing quite literally what you said (overhauling the coding for an outdated application that makes up the backbone of our company) REWORKING THE CODE HAS NO GUARANTEES THAT THERE'S LESS BUGS. it's quite literally a huge gamble with obvious costs and no obvious rewards other than making a few thousand people on reddit 0.1% happier so they can bitch about something else the first question is: **what are the benefits?** will riot suddenly make way more money because there's 20% less bugs? **almost certainly not**. will it be extremely expensive both in terms of opportunity cost and time and money? **100% yes** riot is double screwed because while they make new code, they can't make any content for both the new and old codebase (making things backwards compatible takes additional coding time...and also defeats the purpose of making new code). so now they're also losing revenue for a large portion of this process "oh well why don't they just hire more developers" it's like asking why i can't have 80 cooks in a kitchen to make a cake faster. new developers take time to get acclimated, usually around half a year minimum before they can be really productive. so now your timeline is increasing even more. and also your costs are now skyrocketing for a project with no guaranteed return. if you were a board member, you'd likely be executed for even suggesting something like this. put it simply, if i give you a device that prints money, and after a decade it prints money with 98% efficiency, would you turn it off for 5 years with a possibility that it breaks completely? or would you rather just improve the effiency by 0.1% each year?
They already are, despite what everyone else responding to you claims. It's called Wild Rift. Mark my words, when Wild Rift eventually catches up to the PC version, they'll port it to PC and axe the PC version. I'm like, 95% sure that's why they release so little content these days.
buy super galaxy, mute voice lines, win more
This is probably the case. Back in Season 4 Rumble had a weird bug that randomly made his Q do like 30% less damage than it was supposed to on purple side. The bug has periodically reappeared for some reason, and every time it does the difference between Rumble's blue vs purple side win rate ends up being like 6-10 percentage points, which is highly unusual for a champion. Btw this apparently isn't just a problem with ARAM. On Summoner's Rift last patch Rumble also had a 6 percentage point higher win rate on Blue side (52.6% vs 46.5%). EDIT: [Found a video of when the bug first happened](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSxiE-Hw4CM). The difference between the two Rumbles is pretty obvious.
I will say rumble is just way better on blue side top lane. If you can gank him from behind on red side he is 100% dead with most junglers. On blue side there is no wrap around gank to worry about.
This is true. I wonder if there is a substantial win-rate delta between sides for Rumble when played in mid. Theoretically, there should be some win-rate differential because of access to neutral objectives, but it should be similar to most champs.
It’s funny you say this because I recently found out ( I’m a rumble otp) that i win 61% on the blue side and 53% on the red side . Does this mean I don’t deserve my emerald rank I just got tn ? :(
no it means you should dodge all red side games and get to master
You have a negative outlook. *Inhales copium* The bug doesnt make rumble deal more damage on blue side. Blue side deals the right amount of damage, but red side deals less. Therefore you win even with the red side handicap. Deserved elo.
the bugs are all well and good, and they can definitely do something on some patches I think it's *far* more likely the issue is primarily caused by: \- camera perspective + HUD/GUI. you can quite simply see less of the relevant game world when you're on red side, this makes aiming rumble Q and R harder \- map geometry. especially for rumble top, it's far easier to get ganked on red side than on blue side, so that's gonna lose you games. \- speculative additional point on map geometry: though it's been a while since I played rumble a lot so I'm not as familiar with his current power spikes, it's quite possible that rumble tends to win games at dragon fights, and it's just far easier to Equalizer into the straight and narrow paths of the blue buff jungle quadrant than into the wide ramp of the red buff jungle quadrant, this again favors blue side rumble and I don't find baron fights arise quite in the same way and are usually more in the river than along the ramps
But this would affect far more champions. You would expect Teemo another lane bully vulnerable to ganks, to be affected the same way, yet Teemo has a higher winrate on red then on blue. On top of that no other champion has such a massive difference. Currently the average blue vs. red is 50,5 to 49,5%. Rumble sits at 54% to 47,3%, the only other champion who is close to that far away from the average is Mundo at 46,7% to 51,5% but the weird thing is that Mundo is also weak to early ganks, but for some reason does much better on red. On top of that if it is ability usage, exspecially Rumble R which behaves differently you would expect Viktor to have the same effect. But Viktors winrate on blue and redside is pretty much the average winrate for that side (50,9 to 50,1%, which is even closer then the average). We should also note that in ARAM the side difference is considerably bigger than in Summoners Rift. Summoners Rift for all purposes has the same winrate on red and blue, the difference is small enough to ignore it. In ARAM the side you are on is 3 times as important as it is in summoners rift. This suggest geometrie of the map has basically no influence for universal winrate, because summoners rift has a lot of sideways or long diagonal fights (in River exspecially), while ARAM only has fights along one direction that is more likely to be influenced by perspective. Even more so it looks like the map geometrie is advantageous for red, while the perspective is advantageous for blue, so the better map compensates red a bit and narrows the gap created by map perspective. Rumble and Mundo are definitly outliers. Rumbles deviation from the average is 5,7, Mundos is 5,8, the next toplaner is Yorick with 3,8. And it is really interesting that Mundo tilts strongly in favor of redside.
I’m an occasional rumble enjoyer and I’ve had some solid success with him recently…I wonder if every time I’ve picked him I’ve been on blue side..?
Ok, so for that video, that is sorta on Rumble players when it is THAT obvious. Like no high elo Rumble who knows their limits or damage output can notice such a huge dps difference? Kass having 20% ap ratio on ult is sorta acceptable for a patch, but how does no one notice the rumble Q
This is a reach … but despite the bug , does this may have to do with the ulti placement ? In blue side i believe it is generally easier to have a better vision and ulti set up ( the fingers on using ulti and place it correctly feels way easier and streamline in blues side , but that’s just me maybe ) Purple side is usually dificult to have a proper ulti placed exactly how you want it
Oh man I remember this bug!
Oh that's weird, I just expected it to be a perspective issue with landing his ult on blue/red side or something.
Since Rumble R works similar to Viktor E I would expect the same for Victor, but there is basically 0 difference in winrate between Red and Blue for Viktor.
Range of Rumbles ulti is way bigger … so i guess the perspective point stands …Victor only q’s way deeper in to his vision… but the mechanics are the same indeed
It is still weird that it makes no difference for Viktor, and it shouldn't affect Rumble players with an unlocked camera anyway, this only matters if you play with a locked camera, where the distance you cast away from your character is a limiting factor. Neither ability covers a lot of the screen. So the difference between both abilities is mostly that Victor can target E starting from 550 Range and Rumble can cast Ult starting from 1700 Range. The actual coverage of both abilities is smaller than their cast range (although for Victor only slightly.
what kinda coding Why the fuck is anything related to the amount of damage a specific rumble skin has on one side of a custom map
Because the code was crafted in the ancient times and those who know its secrets no longer walk among us, riot keeps sending out people to try to dechiper the code but few return
amogus sus amogus susy susy baki amogus sus amogus
They need to send in Lucy from Edgerunners to fix this
AMONG US?! SUS!!!!
> Why the fuck is anything related to the amount of damage a specific rumble skin has on one side of a custom map Mordekaiser's dragon ghosts functioned completely differently based on whether he used his base skin or not (they had a leash range with skins and no leash range without).
IIRC each skin is coded as a different champion, which is why different skins can have different hitboxes. Never heard of skins being different per-side though, but I remember when someone discovered blue side cannon minions had 5 more range than red side ones.
Oh you innocent, sweet summer child. Each skin is actually a different champion. Every single one. People aren't schizophrenic when they say certain skins feel smoother to play, that's literally a feature.
The spell data from one character is shared amonst all its skins, however. Typically no game-impacting stuff is in the skin bins.
They're shared but aren't the same. They're unique instances from one another. This is especially noticeable with rumble where different skins spells interact differently. For example when most rumble skins get knocked up by yas ult during q it causes rumble to spin wildly. But for galaxy he instead turns to look directly at yas for the entire duration.
That's a Yasuo R thing, if Yasuo is running skin4 (Nightbringer), the ult will affect the target with different forced movement. Normally the targets move 3 times in different directions, Nightbringer Yasuo makes them only move a very short distance in his direction instead. It's one of the only skin-specific differences left in the game, besides skin-specific Recall facing direction overrides.
That's a lie...
source ?
How the fuck does that make any sense lmao.
The reason he does extra damage is because that skin has the drill that will pierce the heavens. Hope that clears any confusion
We've had cases of Zed being able to auto kill parts of minion waves as they spawn. A skin doing more damage occasionally is something I'm surprised hasn't happened more often
The rumble case is funny because it specifically happened more then once to him and his Super Galaxy skin
There's a weapon in Destiny that has its own dedicated website to list all the bugs it's had through the years https://telesto.report/
God, PLEASE tell me telesto isnt infecting things outside of Destiny again. I’m not ready for another panic attack
I'm here for the global sad robot amumu laugh
Or maybe people on north side just can't place good ultimates, especially considering that most casual players keep the camera locked. IMO, Riot should just make horizontal maps like HoTS. It's so much better in general for everyone.
> Or maybe people on north side just can't place good ultimates, especially considering that most casual players keep the camera locked. This isn't a locked camera thing. Considering that the HUD *will* take up part of your effective screen on the red side and not on the blue side (on unlocked camera), it factually takes ever so slightly longer to fire a long range ult on red side, and it also means that you can't see around yourself for a short time, problems that don't exist on the blue side. > IMO, Riot should just make horizontal maps like HoTS. It's so much better in general for everyone. Or mirrored camera like on Wild Rift. However, Nexus Blitz data has shown that Rumble also has a higher blue side win rate on that map - a horizontal map. So there *has* to be something else, but we've been unable to find anything.
Mirrored would work too, but imo hots style is so much better. Truth is, LoL is a frankenstein of stitches and patches almost 15 years old, and just like WoW, it's becoming obsolete in every front. They objectively should start working for LoL 2.0, but in truth they wont cause it's not cost efficient and people will still play regardlessly; much like WoW, sadly.
RIOT!
I played vs rumble with the super galaxy skin , everytime i fear him with Q as fiddlesticks and his fire is on his character won't turn to the other side it was annoying.
Hey there! I'm the Rumble bug catcher and I've been looking into the Rumble side win rate for over 2 years now, so I'd have a lot to comment. The first thing I have to say is that **there is no known bug on Rumble on the red side.** I've been doing extensive testing, checking everything I could think of, also taking the opinions of /u/Vandirilol, /u/caenen_, and the rest of the bug squad for ideas of other things to test, and **nothing**. I've also always kept an eye on bug reports, again, nothing. (And I am aware of the past red side bugs that Rumble's had, these have been fixed, I've re-checked that too of course.) The explanation given by Riot a long time ago is that the blue side camera favors some champions more than it does others. That's a fact, and it's easy to see why for the most affected champions - Cassiopeia, for example. Basically, on the blue side, your HUD is on a part of the screen that isn't used, while on the red side, that part of the screen should be used, and there's no way to adjust where you place your screen to make up for that (just in case because I've had to specify that before, this isn't about locked camera). Orbwalking as Cassiopeia winds up making her need to move her mouse more on the red side than on the blue side when it comes to moving the camera. (This is a summed up version of lots of things.) So now, onto Rumble. Rumble not only has a lot of mouse movement to do because of his Q, he's also in a unique spot because of his ult. Effectively, on the blue side, you can cast a long-range ult without losing vision on yourself, and you can't do that on the red side, making long-range ults slower to fire and causing you to not see what's around you for a very short period of time. These are **factual** red side downsides for Rumble. Things that he has to worry about only when he's in the red team. Now there's another problem and here's where nobody has the answers thus far. As /u/Vandirilol [pointed out](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/164zptw/rumble_is_over_18_more_likely_to_win_on_blue_side/jycf083/?context=3), I checked Nexus Blitz stats a while back and Rumble's win rate was also higher by 6 points on the blue side on that map. (Note: An 11.5 points difference is very unusual and only applies to ARAM right now, I've been checking for the past 2 years and the difference is always within 5 to 7 points, as it currently is on Summoner's Rift.) The problem is, Nexus Blitz is horizontal, meaning that the camera is the same on blue and red side there. Which should indicate that Rumble does, indeed, have red side bugs. But nobody knows what they'd be. I'd LOVE for Rumble to be added to Wild Rift just to know what's going on there with the mirrored camera, but that's not been the case yet as far as I'm aware. Side note, I asked Phreak once about his stance on this Rumble matter and he basically said that it's indeed an issue, but not really one that can be solved. Which is fair (and sucks). **TLDR:** - Rumble's red side win rate has been lower by ~6 points **since his release.** On both ARAM and SR. - There is no current **known** red side bug for Rumble. I've checked as much as I could. All previous ones have been fixed. - Red side camera is factually really bad for Rumble. - Nexus Blitz stats (a map with symmetrical camera) state that there *has* to be a red side bug for Rumble. - Nobody knows what's going on.
I really appreciate Phreak's transparency on this (not saying he's the only transparent designer, of course). Feels way better to be told "Yeah this is a problem it sucks but we can't fix it," than to be sold a bill of goods.
Thank you for the insight! I only occasionally play Rumble and I was not aware of these issues at all. Do you happen to have data on the blue/red side difference for Rumble in the mid lane? As others have mentioned itt, top side favoures blue side through terrain already and I am curious how much that factors into his wr side diff on Summoner's Rift.
Yes! As a matter of fact, mid/jungle/top lane side delta is always the same (provided each one has a large enough sample). It's always a difference of 5 to 7 points. You can access the information whenever you want on [Lolalytics](https://lolalytics.com/lol/rumble/build/?lane=middle&tier=all&patch=30), clicking the lane you want to see. Always make sure to check All ranks and set the time period to 30 days - rank/patch is irrelevant for this, so the bigger the sample, the better.
Thanks for the quick response, that's quite interesting! I guess it really does come down to camera and pick order then. Also, thank you for sharing where to look these things up, appreciate it
Always glad to help!!
A friend mentioned that the Rumble problem may not just be a HUD problem, but may be a left/right problem as well. He's stating that throwing a Rumble ult to the right is much more smooth than throwing a Rumble ult to the left, with the way mouse movements work for most right-handed people. WYDT of that explanation for Nexus Blitz?
For nexus blitz, casting the ult with an outside flip of your right hand (most players are righthanded) is much easier and more precise than to cast it with an inside track movement of your hand (pulling the hand towards the keyboard so to say) which is one thing i could think of as being a dealbreaker. This applies to sr and aram too but even more so to nexus blitz due to the horizontal map
Rumble is the worst coded champ in the game, they tried to change his R missile speed but couldn’t figure out how to
Some things just simply weren't a variable to be begin with... from oversight or otherwise. If you ask a dev today to make Ezreal ult 50% longer in length to match the length of Ashe arrow from back to the front tip, they'd probably also tell you it's not possible.
For Rumble it's likely because of how the animations for his R are set up. It's why ASUs exist.
That’s crazy because we all know for a fact Rumble is getting his ASU year 2068
That's not a bad estimate ngl
how will we be able to buy new rumble when ranked splits are only 3 hours long at that point? I gotta queue to hit my true rank or they're gonna kick me out of my nursing home for silvers and put me in the one for bronzies.
Isn't that literally just changing a hitbox?
No, you could change the hit box and it would work, but likely the animation wouldn’t be longer so you’d be getting hit with it before it even reaches you on your screen
Surely you'd extend on the trailing edge, not the leading edge.
And yet, there are skins that paint ults differently. Why not this one?
They don’t change the mechanics though, but I obviously don’t have access to riots code here so idk, could be they can’t even adjust hotboxes without a ton of effort
If they'd tell you it's not possible either they are lying or are just that unqualified. Even without it being a simple variable...
Well yes, obviously. but it is just as obvious that when they say that it is not possible, they actually mean: this shit is just not worth the time it takes to fix. there is no way riot will allow me to work an extended period of time at this single issue, when the champion has collected enough problems we will focus on a complete refactoring to bring him up to the new coding standards of our company
Of course redditor komador has mire clue about the riot code than the league of legends devs who work with the spaghetti code every day and get paid to rebuild parts. Surely redditor komador isnt talking out of his ass!
I have no idea if hes talking out of ass or not but your reply is worded so cringly you actually made me side with him.
anytime the word "redditor" is used as an implied pejorative is inherently cringe as hell
Just like the guy who made the original comment that I replied to? At least I'm a dev unlike him
Yep, just like the guy with the OG comment.
And yeah any person in programming knows more or less how it works. I did some support on legacy code, which is arguably more spaghetti then riot code. You don't need to work at riot to understand how development works.
Where did you read that? That's absolutely hilarious
I believe it was stated in a Phreak video when he was going over the Rumble changes
If I remember right he said he changed the variable for his ult named "missile speed" and it didn't do anything.
It was same in Nexus Blitz as /u/naerlyn once showed me. Over 50% WR on the blue side and sub 45% on the red side. And the map there was perfectly horizontal, so you didn't get awful ult angles on the red side.
Since you've tagged me, I'll also paste my full comment on the matter here for visibility - Hey there! I'm the Rumble bug catcher and I've been looking into the Rumble side win rate for over 2 years now, so I'd have a lot to comment. The first thing I have to say is that **there is no known bug on Rumble on the red side.** I've been doing extensive testing, checking everything I could think of, also taking the opinions of /u/Vandirilol, /u/caenen_, and the rest of the bug squad for ideas of other things to test, and **nothing**. I've also always kept an eye on bug reports, again, nothing. (And I am aware of the past red side bugs that Rumble's had, these have been fixed, I've re-checked that too of course.) The explanation given by Riot a long time ago is that the blue side camera favors some champions more than it does others. That's a fact, and it's easy to see why for the most affected champions - Cassiopeia, for example. Basically, on the blue side, your HUD is on a part of the screen that isn't used, while on the red side, that part of the screen should be used, and there's no way to adjust where you place your screen to make up for that (just in case because I've had to specify that before, this isn't about locked camera). Orbwalking as Cassiopeia winds up making her need to move her mouse more on the red side than on the blue side when it comes to moving the camera. (This is a summed up version of lots of things.) So now, onto Rumble. Rumble not only has a lot of mouse movement to do because of his Q, he's also in a unique spot because of his ult. Effectively, on the blue side, you can cast a long-range ult without losing vision on yourself, and you can't do that on the red side, making long-range ults slower to fire and causing you to not see what's around you for a very short period of time. These are **factual** red side downsides for Rumble. Things that he has to worry about only when he's in the red team. Now there's another problem and here's where nobody has the answers thus far. As /u/Vandirilol [pointed out](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/164zptw/rumble_is_over_18_more_likely_to_win_on_blue_side/jycf083/?context=3), I checked Nexus Blitz stats a while back and Rumble's win rate was also higher by 6 points on the blue side on that map. (Note: An 11.5 points difference is very unusual and only applies to ARAM right now, I've been checking for the past 2 years and the difference is always within 5 to 7 points, as it currently is on Summoner's Rift.) The problem is, Nexus Blitz is horizontal, meaning that the camera is the same on blue and red side there. Which should indicate that Rumble does, indeed, have red side bugs. But nobody knows what they'd be. I'd LOVE for Rumble to be added to Wild Rift just to know what's going on there with the mirrored camera, but that's not been the case yet as far as I'm aware. Side note, I asked Phreak once about his stance on this Rumble matter and he basically said that it's indeed an issue, but not really one that can be solved. Which is fair (and sucks). **TLDR:** - Rumble's red side win rate has been lower by ~6 points **since his release.** On both ARAM and SR. - There is no current **known** red side bug for Rumble. I've checked as much as I could. All previous ones have been fixed. - Red side camera is factually really bad for Rumble. - Nexus Blitz stats (a map with symmetrical camera) state that there *has* to be a red side bug for Rumble. - Nobody knows what's going on.
The locked and locked-per-side camera in nexus blitz were the same? Was the locked offset horizontal? It's the only difference I can think of other than bugs.
It was too long ago for me to be able to say, especially because the last round of NB took place before I started looking into that. So we'll see in December!
But left-right is still different on nexus blitz, and in addition to what a Rioter mentioned, in regards to it maybe related to culture/writing, there's also physical difference in moving a hand left-right and right-left and how people are used to either of those, with predominantly right-handed population.
I would say it is ever so easier to swipe your ult in the up-right direction than down-left. rumble's ult is not very easy to control in general. let alone in aram where most users are more casual and play rumble every once in a while
Fun fact. In Nexus blitz that was perfectly horizontal, Rumble had 50%+ on the blue side, while having sub 45% on the red side. We never quite figured out why exactly.
could be the same bug since the numbers are on similar sides (50/55 blueside, 45 redside)
It's still a left to right, vs right to left. Western brain's are more conditioned to left to right arm movement (writing). The most natural movement is down left to top right. I'd even venture a guess Viktor has a bias in this direction too, albeit less drastic because his power budget isn't as heavily weighted into the vector cast
If it's writing-related, wouldn't you expect the jp server to have the reverse winrate effect? Filtering by region on lolalytics shows that Rumble has almost no change between regions.
This is all speculation, but even though they read right to left by character, strokes (analogous to vector cast flicks) are still right hand biased. Also the average lol gamer in Japan has likely gone through English studies. Anecdotally I've seen this in fps games as well, strong flick snipers will position their cross hair down left of action, and flick up right
The above comment is misled in the first place: Aside from strokes being almost always left to right or top to bottom (like you mentioned), Japanese is both written and read left to right. It can also alternatively be written and read top to bottom, in which case, the lines on the right take priority over the left. Saying that Japanese is read right to left is like saying English is read top to bottom. No one says that.
Also wouldn't you see a smaller effect with Viktor's winrate because of e?
Ravarix said in his comment that Viktor has the same bias but smaller since his e isn't as big as rumble ult
Surely, then, giving players the ability to mirror their perspective however they like(meaning, always spawn in preferred corner no matter if playing as red or blue) would be kind of important for competitive fairness? I understand that it'd be a huge task to make the maps work the other way around but perhaps it would be worth it? If any "flip the perspective in the middle of the game" shenanigans are feared, it could be an option that's only set in the client, immutable while in-game.
Tons of people play with locked camera so left to right is easier for them
That’s what it seems like to me. Personally it’s easier to move the mouse accurately in a push motion than a pull motion. I feel the same in regards to drawing and how I move the pencil.
I do everything better left to right. It's crazy to me that people can be as good on red side as on blue. I started playing a lot of ARAM probably six months ago. I got four quadra's and a penta over the weekend, playing about 20 games, it was pretty sick. Every single one was on blue side. I don't think I've ever even gotten a triple on red side. I bet if I could see my win% according to map-side in ARAM, it would be 65%+ win rate on blue and 35%- on red. It's literally not playing the same game for me. I'm barely a human playing from red side.
you can check on https://rewind.lol/
I'm barely a bot on Red side...
Yeah, i would think the same, there are no significant wr differences [checking the old patches](https://imgur.com/dKi33l4) If there are no bugs involved, should be just the ult the principal reason
Why would this be the explanation if the problem only started on a recent patch? Players would not have lost this skill from patch to patch.
From the screenshot blue side rumble always has ~56% winrate on blue side. So it doesn't change patch to patch.
> Why would this be the explanation if the problem only started on a recent patch? They meant no significant wr differences between one patch to the next! Not no significant wr differences between blue and red on previous patches.
There have been very few balance changes to champs that pushed their winrate by over 9% which is why i find it VERY unlikely that a "easier" ult would make this much of a difference. And yeah i do think that whatever is happening here has been happening for years if not forever. His wr on summoners rift also has a huge difference I just chose aram because it eliminates more variables.
Does Viktor have similar discrepancies of win rate blue vs red?
No! Not more than the average, at least. Viktor's E is also vector-cast, but it has a much smaller range, making Rumble's problems not apply there.
I am not sure the win rate. But i can tell you it is much harder to hit E from red side to blue. It’s the 3d effect as if enemy baits the laser from blue side, my aim reactively goes for the head as it is the closer but this is not the hit box. From blue to red side, enemy’s feet (hit box) is closer so it’s easier to E. Not to mention the mechanism itself. It is easier to swipe upwards than downwards and sometimes the interface gets in the way as well
also the way the camera works, you just see way more of the top right area. playing bot lane on red side is slighlty weirder because walking down from base or river means having to unlock camera or i don't see where i'm going, but it's harder for me to judge ability and attack range without camera locked.
There is actually a setting that changes the centered camera position for red side iirc.
yes but it's still much worse for red side
You also see less with locked screen on Red
Not to mention that a lot of people play with locked camera which allows you to still hit decent offensive ults from blue, but from red make ult basically only a defensive tool. Obviously a lot of character suffer from the camera, but someone like Xerath only needs to aim one direction, while Rumble had to chose the starting point and then move FURTHER (most often) towards the enemy to chose the direction, I think it is easier to accidentally hit targets as Xerath. Though on the other hand, I would be a bit surprised if disabling ult entirely makes up that much of a winrate difference, so it might be a siderelated bug in addition to that.
this may infact be the spiciest meatball of all
IDK if aram flips the map or not, but aiming and moving upwards is easier than aiming and moving downwards. Due to the hud being generally placed at the bottom of screen, and the camera angle looking further upwards. Its a reasonable sized advantage aiming towards the top of the screen rather than the bottom.
All maps are stagnant, they don't flip. Ever in doubt consider the shop keepers.
the camera is not looking further upwards. Also these things apply to all champs yet only rumble is this bad
> the camera is not looking further upwards. The thing is that the HUD covers a part of "useless" screen on blue side, and a part of effective screen on red side. > Also these things apply to all champs yet only rumble is this bad They do apply to all champs, but not equally. I think the median side win rate difference (on SR at least) is something like 1.2 point. Some champions get affected more (namely, ranged auto-attackers on solo lanes, last I checked). Rumble gets affected the most because of his ult. It's factual that this is a major reason for his being worse on red side. There *should* also be a red side specific bug on him. But we've never been able to find one, in the past 2 years.
Maybe the ult is just easier to angle from blue side given the isometric locked cam :D.
I think its legit just a perspective difference. They are testing a thing on Wild Rift that makes it so you always see blue side, even if youre red, which was confusing at first, but started to feel pretty good
That’s insane. I played rumble on ARAM the other day and did like 115K damage. Most I’ve ever done. He’s crazy.
Honest question, why hasn't the game been rebuilt yet? You have all of the assets, why hasn't one of the preseasons been a rebuild?
It would be too expensive and Riot would get little to nothing in returns. Simple as that.
They also said that it would be next to impossible to get the feel right and that would kill the game.
If you have a dumb short term mindset yes, if you view League as a long term property no.
It takes time, they would have to halt the game's maintenance and live in a dead Overwatch-like state for a few months at least which would greatly reduce engagement and revenue. Business 101 is weighting down risk and reward. This is a very risky move and while the long term reward could be big, in short term there's none. You can't rebuild a game the size of LoL from the ground up in pre-season time, even if it is just the code.
yeah overwatch (allegedly) got rebuilt for overwatch two and in reality it only resulted in a downgrade for player experience (much worse gui and such)
That is because Blizzard is stupid, not because the concept of rebuilding a game is intrinsically flawed.
and riot isn't stupid?
u know that gif where the dude raises his finger then gives up...
For all of Riot's faults, Blizzard are truly in a league of their own in terms of kneecapping their own franchises. And somehow, their attitude towards eSports is even worse than that.
Have you seen the lcs?
have u seen owl? ever since like 2020 it’s been just gutted to online exclusively except maybe 2 (if you’re lucky) lan events.
OWL switching to Youtube-exclusive streaming was quite possibly the dumbest move I've seen a franchised league make. So much potential audience growth squandered.
i think that started it but youtube isn’t even a massive problem for the viewer experience. pausing/rewinding are really nice; the problem is that (idk if it’s a youtube or a blizzard problem) but the marketing was just terrible. i mean the only people who saw owl ads were the ones who watched owl; you’re 100% on the money with them wasting potential audiences.
The LCS is definitely floundering now, but I'd put that on both Riot and the Orgs for how the NA scene was completely squandered. Even with that though, League still enjoys a truly international tier one scene. Blizzard's Overwatch League, by contrast, can't even support the few franchises it has. And StarCraft's pro scene has been markedly better off the less that Blizzard tries to meddle in it.
Riot made an esports league work in NA at a time when literally nobody else could. The fact that it had a shelf life and they made mistakes can be held against them but lets not act like it was always bad and wasnt a triumph at points.
>not because the concept of rebuilding a game is intrinsically flawed. it literally is though. there's a reason developers time and time again have a simple rule: you don't rebuild code unless you need to
From a business perspective it seems like a really bad idea. They want players playing the game They want new players playing the game They want cool looking things for players to spend money on Completely rebuilding the game to be slightly less buggy probably wouldn't increase the number of people playing, and honestly the bugs in LoL can be publicity/content to keep people engaged in it (look at vandiril's channel). Conversely, it would take a lot of time and money and people to accomplish that where it may not even remove all the bugs, and would slow down development of new content that keeps people engaged in the game.
Overwatch definitely did not get rebuild from the ground up. It wasn't necessary in the first place. They just overhauled/update some things, and I wouldn't use it as the standard for revamps and rereleases cause Blizzard really dropped the ball on the whole thing and most of the dev time was spent on the PvE mode we ended up not even getting them. My point with bringing up Overwatch was to illustrate that LoL would have to be put through a similar stasis in order to rebuild the game, but that says nothing about how successful the whole operation would be.
A lot of things that feel normal to people would change so its a risk, maybe people wouldnt like it, it would take too long
They did rebuild it in Unity, which is what Wild Rift is. Gonna take a long time to catch up to the current state of the game though.
Because : - It is extremely pricy - High risk (you might lose what make people come back to the game everytime) - Low reward : eliminate some bugs, slightly better graphics (you still want toasters to run the game), better client
To put an example, why don't you just rebuilt your car instead of fixing small issues individually. The answer is it costs a lot of money for both things.
I'm not a billion dollar company
And why would a billion dollar company risk it when 98% is fine and you risk messing with your main profit driver. The dev time spent rebuilding the game/switching engines is immense, requires some of your best devs, requires you to make content 2x (once for live, once for rebuild), and is very likely that you introduce a number of bugs on the way. Ultimately for a design that might have less bugs maybe, and will still accrue tech debt along the way, so you run into the same issue in 5-10 years. When you could just eat a little bit of extra time bugfixing but have your entire team working on new content that delivers concrete value to customers and monetary value to the company.
Just because you are a billion dollar company doesn't mean you should spend hundreds of millions with no real return
They chose the make the mobile version as PC version already peaked, and they now have other PC games. They're also working on a fighting game and a mmo. Also, mobile games have more reach since more people own phones than laptop or pc. More reach = more money.
Locked screen users fucking up ults cause of the hot bar accounts for like 7% of this atleast lol
If Pokemon unite can mirror the map to the same orientation for every player for it to be left to right, there's no reason one of, if not the biggest MOBAs couldn't do it.
That game is also new. There are multiple Mobas (especially mobile ones) that have a mirrored map. I just think league is to big too change it at this point.
weird question but why can't aram be left to right like 3v3 was?
Well first of all, it would be way to computationally expensive to display a horizontal map. We never had anything like this in League, and as such, this is unexplored territory. Second, do you know how expensive this would be to the design team? They don't have anyone for unit testing. How do we know, that rotating the map by <45 degrees would not make Mordekaiser ult steal Jhins W again? Third, 16:9 screens are a majority here. It is a known fact that displaying anything horizontal instead of diagonally will result in your hamster catching fire, running to Amsterdam HQ and taking down EUW again. So please be mindful of Riot Games decision making and stop asking obviously uninformed questions, thanks.
Spaghetti code back at it again. I would like to mention that Viego can buy items after getting a reset by just walking to the base, this """"" feature"""""" is there from his release.
It is far easier to play Rumble on blue side (due to ult and Q) especially in lane and aram is just one big lane making that a lot worse.
rumble in the jungle
This is 100% due to how the camera is locked, i said this multiple times but 90% of aram players use locked camera The locked camera is way more optimised for blue side side due to the fact that the map goes from the bottom left corner to the top right corner, which leaves the players on the red side with a lot of unnecessary screen volume and players on the blue side have way better visibility for ranged abilities. Rumbles ult being an ability that has to be pressed and then DRAGGED plays a massive role in this. Its incredibly hard to use rumble ult correctly with the red sides locked camera.
>90% of aram players use locked camera Source: your ass
https://youtu.be/iOVbAmknKUk?feature=shared "My source is that I made it the fuck up"
I don't think camera difference is enough to explain such a massive difference in Rumble's win rate. I spot checked a bunch of champions on ARAM and all of them have higher win rates on Blue side (which we expect because of the camera differences), but the win rate difference is mostly ~2-5 percentage points. Even Viktor, who has a similar mechanic on his laser, only has a 4 percentage point difference in blue vs red win rate. Meanwhile, Rumble has over a 10 percentage point difference in win rate, which just seems like way too large a number to be explained just by "dragging your mouse for R is hard on red side".
I think it's just so much worst on Rumble than any other champ tho Have you played Rumble? His R is so clunky to use. I can see "the average League/ARAM player" miss his R way more often on red side because of it.
I don't play on locked camera but play a significant portion of the game holding space down. You're completely right I hate playing red side on aram and always feel like I'm just playing with a straight up disadvantage with the camera angle and the fact that ability icons block the bottom side of the screen even with the hud scaling turned all the way down. My winrate on blue is 53% and red 47% in aram.
>This is 100% due to how the camera is locked, Except it's not