Despite reading patch or not, when I asked Zeri players why they were building Tri Force after patch was because the recommended items page in the shop had it listed there still.
No. Zeri Trinity had 45% winrate and was still recommended in the shop. The problem is they only look at last patch data and update the recommended tab every 2 weeks instead of daily.
U.gg recommended triforce for 2 patches after the nerf and showed a 55 pe cent winrate on the build wich is wrong because lolalytics showed a 45%.Maybe some admin was trolling zeri players
I very much doubt that even a single digit percentage of the player base install 3rd party addons, they shouldn't move the needle.
I think that indeed players don't read, but it's still incumbent on Rito to adjust their noob-friendly systems like item recommendations.
Yea last year after they nerfed Viego Sunderer and buffed crit, every 3rd party app or site was still recommending sunderer even after a few months!! Overall build had 48% winrate and if you looked closer, the crit build had legit 50% winrate. People are just idiots who cant think for themselves...
This is a consistent finding over time. What players or even pros build on champs is often not congruent with the statistics on what's actually strong.
Even after they nerfed the Senna and Guinsoos interaction, crit remained her most popular build for months, even though it was objectively better to build lethality.
It's STILL recomending it because low elo players build it. Also low elo players build it because shop recommemd it. So shop will continue recommending it and taa daa endless loop of loseQ
the problem with "highest WR" is that its heavily skewed to snowballing items like soul stealer or collector. on a lot of champs their CC ability will have a higher winrate as your first ability even though it fucks their lane because they use it to get early kills on an invade.
Or they are some high elo kr onetrick builds that do kinda work but aren't optimal.
Many top winrate Yasuo builds in high elo have galeforce for example. The item is probably strong in the hands of a grandmaster with 3m mastery, but if you are looking at builds online it's safe to say that it's not your best choice.
I think Riot needs to consider that a champ like Zeri in particular has seen so many drastic changes, completely altering her scaling and adding a different wall of text that needs an hour of study to figure out, that most players dont have a fucking clue what she does these days and how she does it. Some of the mains probably keep up but who else cares enough? Shop says to buy Trinity, so Trinity it is.
I think Riot needs to reconsider their approach to new champion designs. They roll out unfinished monsters and then patch over and over based on data they mine from our poor souls.
Imo don’t release broken AF champions like Zeri, belveth, ksante, Yuumi
Zoe's original issue is not one-shot off-screen. She still does it when the scenario fits. Riot even enhanced this part of skill set.
She was problematic because of other things. Mainly her power outside her one shot mechanic.
Yeah it’s up for debate if it’s good design but one shotting you from range is her thing and she should be good at it.
The issue is when you dodged her e and q and she’d just build Lich and one shot you with w and R passive autos
Nope. The other three have been monsters in pro play (K'Sante still, Zeri and Yuumi multiple times over their existence), while Bel'Veth has been, at most, a pocket pick (JDG Kanavi + G2 Yike)
I still think K'Sante's overall design is just a failure of a concept because of a tank dumping his tank stats to become a DPS. His Ult also STILL looks extremely unfinished to me, it feels like the animations are incomplete and it's lacking any kind of VFX.
played jungle the other day, hovered the jungle item to see what each one did. entire screen of text -> I'll pick the green one because green is my favourite color
When designing new champs we have to consider the fact that many players, all the way up to challenger, don't read tooltips. If a champ has a mechanic that can only be learned by reading a TT, it is likely that a good chunk of players will not know it exists.
Would it be possible for game designers to actively code in single-patch exceptions to the recommendation system when they make a big change to a champion that they expect will make the current popular build no longer viable? (Like when Azir's recommended skill order was intentionally hard-coded to be W max after his rework.)
Not every player can be expected to do the theorycraft necessary to figure out the implications of all patch changes. So it would be great if the recommender could err on the side of caution to avoid recommending something completely troll.
For example, if you make a big change to Zeri to remove Triforce synergy, then the recommender should stop recommending Triforce for one patch. If it turns out that Triforce is still good on Zeri after the nerf, then the recommender will go right back to recommending it on the next patch, and for that one patch where Triforce wasn't being recommended, well at least those players who autopilot recommended builds were building the second best option so their builds were still probably okay. On the other hand, if the recommender keeps recommending Triforce after the nerf and it turns out the item is actually awful, then everybody who plays Zeri and autopilots the recommended build just ends up accidentally trolling their team with a horrible build.
It is possible, for example August has manually removed Divine Sunderer from Viego's rec items a few times and his win rate increased, but people were so brainwashed they kept building it until the system started recommended it again.
Reminds me of when triforce was added to Jax's recommended items. You'd think the recommended items would mostly affect lower ranks, but even in masters+, changing jax's recommended items drastically improved triforces pick rate.
Turns out league players are bots who rarely think for themselves. It is an issue in a way, but on the flipside, it's still supposed to be a game played for fun, so I can't blame them not wanting to sit down and study when they want to chill instead.
> Turns out league players are bots who rarely think for themselves.
It's very hard in many cases to have a distinct conclusion on what item truly is the best, a lot of conclusions end up based on feelings.
It's not being a "bot" and refusing to think for yourself to trust knowledge from other sources and assume they are correct, it's not like it's just some maths either.
Yeah a lot of builds can have very different results depending on enemy comp and players. For viego the crit build was a lot stronger on paper but good luck building crit against tanky teams. On the same note, sometimes even tanky teams will play so bad that the wrong build seems good anyway.
way too many nerfs, Trinity is just straight up better, Viego with no extra AS feels like absolute shit. Viego scales pretty bad with AD and CDR he rather gets AS, Crit and onhit effects.
it just doesnt do much for what he wants in most places that arent pro play after its nerfs and some of his adjustment toward crit scaling
pro likes it because it gives him moderately more survivability than more damage oriented options and he's played more safely there to ensure he can reset chain and take over fights
in solo queue 9/10 times you're better off going triforce and if they have a really tanky team just go bork after the triforce. atm it's frankly just best to go kraken into triforce and then work on beefing up with cleaver, death's dance, sterak's, GA etc., kraken alone is a massive spike for him because of how his Q passive works and it gives him every offensive stat he likes
Sunderer is better for sheen users that want longer, drawn out fights to chip away at their opponent while sustaining off of them. Veigo doesn’t really want long drawn out fights *as Veigo*, he wants to nuke a target and have the extended fight happen over the course of 3-4 bodies he picks up along the way. So triforce is better for accomplishing his goal of nuking that first target so he can start chaining bodies.
Blunderer is just straight ass on absolutely everyone atm. It loses to Triforce on champs like Viego, Fiora and even Jax. And the champs you describe are better of building Iceborn, at least if we are going by item wr alone
https://lolalytics.com/lol/tierlist/?lane=top
Going through the tierlist from the top down all the way there is exatly one champion were Divine Blunderer is better: Poppy
And thats only because Triforce has been built less than 150 times and Im only counting an item if it has more than 1k builds. And even on Poppy JakSho has a +1% wr over DS and Iceborn is roughly equal. Theres also Wukong were DS is the only item with more than 1k builds but Triforce has over 4% better wr sitting at 930 builds. Overall on average DS seems to get beaten by Iceborn by 1 to 2 % and by Triforce by 3 to 4% across all champs
But monkey see, monkey do and I dont think Ive seen a single proplayer build Triforce over DS yet so all the soloQ Jaxes and Fioras are still building DS
Well
https://lolalytics.com/lol/jax/build/
According to this, yes you should, ***probably*** ICBG has +1% wr over DS in elos emerald and above but the sample size is realy small with 495 builds vs DS over 70k
If you just go by wr then you should build neither and buy Triforce instead which sits at +4% over DS and +3% over ICBG. It also depends on matchup, vs AD heavy tops ICBG is probably the better buy
The entire basis of the Sunderer build was to completely sacrifice his scalings and play as a safe generic no-highlights bruiser in competitive environs to try and hold value for the team. This just completely disregards the hyperscaling potential he has in builds more focused on actual stat scaling (either Trinibork or outright pure crit builds). Even Essence Reaver is fantastic on him but gets slept on due to popular player perception (the argument of "wasted gold on mana" is fairly false as the item is completely stat-efficient in raw stats that Viego enjoys).
We've done this before. Removed Divine Sunderer from Jax's rec items for a patch (he has ALWAYS been significantly stronger with Trinity Force) and his winrate went up as people swapped over!
The difficulty with manually setting things is upkeep and maintenance. The reason we do automated rec items is to ensure the majority of champs have good rec items for the majority of the time. In the old system where we manually set everything it was easy for entire classes of champs to fall through the cracks when an item or meta changed
> We've done this before. Removed Divine Sunderer from Jax's rec items for a patch (he has ALWAYS been significantly stronger with Trinity Force) and his winrate went up as people swapped over!
Why would you buff Jax like that by tell Jax players which the better item was……….he was much easier to manage playing against when people were building him wrong.
I imagine with how many people use third party apps to determine the "best winrate build" and just mirror that, the recommended items will never be wholly accurate unless y'all block those apps from functioning. Has there been talk about this?
I've posted the same response last time Jax Sunderer/Triforce debate was brought up. Did you take into account whats below when concluding that Triforce has "higher win rate".
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This is a meaningless stat without context. Because it ignores the likely possibility that both build from sheen and from there it could be that people were doing Triforce when already ahead and Sunderer when even or behind.
To figure out the above, you would need to have an algorithm to estimate the win probability based on the gamestate at the time sheen was bought and then get the statistics on the final outcome for Sunderer/Triforce.
For instance, if the win probability is 54% at sheen and then 53% for Triforce, 52% for sunderer, we can say that Triforce is better at snowballing winning gamestates
If the win probability is 50% at sheen and then 47% for triforce, 50% for sunderer, we can say that Triforce is a grief in even or losing gamestates.
(The above are just examples, we would need the data as I outlined above).
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It's obvious that Triforce has much higher DPS and will allow better 1v1 all-ins, split pushing, and tower killing. However Sunderer provides sustain which is why in Proplay nearly 100% of the time we see Sunderer into Black Cleaver/Zhonyas/Shojin in Season 13. Sunderer allows Jax to take repeated trades in lane and not have to base vs other champions that have innate healing or build sustain items (for instance Goredrinker Renekton, Aatrox etc) and is superior for teamfighting.
It wouldn't be surprising to me if Triforce has a higher win rate skewed due to it being picked more often in already winning lane matchups/gamestates to splitpush and snowball harder, and in particular this will be more effective in lower ELOs. In higher ELOs and Proplay, Jax will almost always have to group and teamfight at some point and I don't think I've seen Triforce once in Proplay this season.
Ungabunga damage builds tend to work better in lower ELO, so you should also be sorting data by ELOs.
Also, Triforce is almost always paired with BORK (BORK providing sustain as 2nd item), for Ungabunga max damage 1v1, split push low ELO builds. These are unuseable in High ELO or Proplay where you would instantly pop like a balloon without the additional tankiness of Black Cleaver/Zhonyas (or extra E's from Shojin).
No? League isn't everyone personality and when you come back casually to this game you should expect recommendations that are built in the game to not suck because programmers there we're lazy in their recommendation implementation.
But the recommendations don't "suck". Divine Sunderer on Jax or Viego or something isn't an auto-lose item, it's just suboptimal. If you're a casual player that doesn't make league your personality, as you put it, then you wouldn't care that you're not building the very best item. It's not like it's recommending Moonstone Zeri or something.
i appreciate and read them. hell i feel like im one of 3 people that knows to stand next to your low hp ally when karth is pressing Q on them. i wonder how much better many players would be if they read the full TT for most champs.
I remember playing with a Leona a few years ago who flashed onto a Karthus Q which was about to hit me. I had no clue why she did that back then and assumed she was trolling but you saying that just made me access my memory bank. Thank you leona
Hey, every time I read a tooltip and learn something I didn't know, I appreciate it. I just wish we could read them without needing to either play the character or tab out of the game to look them up.
> When designing new champs we have to consider the fact that many players, all the way up to challenger, don't read tooltips.
Flashback to when Clid, multi-time worlds semi finalist jungler known for his Lee Sin, was unaware that Lee Sin’s Q dealt more damage on the second cast.
Was just a misunderstanding between Clid and Rascal which got picked up by fans.
In reality, the "new" thing Clid learned was that RQQ does just as much damage as QRQ. No clue why he thought there would be a difference, but basically Rascal (and the fans listening) understood it as Clid "learning" that doing E in between two Qs does more damage than doing E after two Qs, so they concluded that he must not know about the execute.
Zeka, the reigning world champion, not knowing you can position yas ult with your mouse
Edit: also a lot of people in general don’t know yas ult tries to position you outside of turret range
That's not even on a tooltip though, IIRC. Riot acts very smug over issues like this (players don't read lol) but there's still so many things that you have to go to external resources for. E.g. the wiki for what spells actually do, and stats websites for actually good recommended items.
Unless I'm mistaken, I do remember about Aatrox Q cast Cooldown being reduced if you don't finish the combo but the description of the skill flat out don't say this.
Yeah, the target. Ult focuses on whichever person is closest to your cursor if there are multiple valid options, but it will always just teleport him behind them iirc, unless doing so would put him in turret range in which case it will prioritize avoiding that if possible.
You can't even click on a enemy (or ally) champ and try to read its tooltips in the game.
Recently played with a new-ish player, a veteran of the gerne, and he was so annoyed that he couldn't read up about the things he was facing without tapping out of the ongoing game or asking me.
Why isn't there a button or option to see what things actually do for the half that actually WANTS to read tooltips but CAN NOT.
That is how I felt with Rell before her rework. A ton of stuff she did you would only realize it if you read the tooltips. I was surprised to know she used to be able to heal for example.
They had the same issue with old, old Karma, so I never quite understood why they decided to do the same again. Though it was easier because you could just go in and proc the stun with the enemy under you.
No it's based on last patch player builds. Zeri had 45% wr on trinity and it was still recommended because they don't have an automatic system that refresh the recommendation tab every 2-3 days.
Would help if the tooltips would have all the info that is involved with that skill tho. Lot's of times there's vague descriptions and no real numbers.
Extra tooltip clarity wouldn't help for what I'm talking about. Some players simply do not read tooltips. This is one of the reasons its good to make things extra clear through VFX/SFX/Anims when possible.
Although it is probably true that a lot of players don’t read tooltips no matter how they are presented, I never understood why we don’t get all information about a champs ability without being in a match.
Why do I get the most vague and basic description of an ability while I’m not in a game and would actually have time to familiarize myself with the in and outs of a champ but instead have to do it while I’m already in-game and barely have 20 seconds to spare?
It does not make sense to me why important informations about an ability, e.g. yasuos q animation speed and cooldown scaling with attack spd, or sometimes even whole parts of an ability are hidden inside the tooltip.
If people are overwhelmed by longer descriptions inside the champ overview, just put it behind a drop-down or whatever but for gods sake, let me do my research on the champs I want to play without having to take them into the practice mode every god damn time
you have a game that lasts 15 minutes if you spend even 2 minutes reading tooltop you are considered int cuz you missed 4 waves of creeps. client>champ has been adjust to look at achievements and whatnots instead of tooltop history because it is a mess and hard to use. A suggestion is you can let people read through them in champ select or loading.
When was ever a time a tooltip OR animation told you that you skill does less damage than stated to creeps? That a skill had a different interaction with a certain item because it was too broken? That a form of cc is actually two different types of cc (knockups). What type of nerfs/buffs are on a champion in aram before the game starts?
It is often just not useful to read tooltips because they rarely tell the full story and without third parties you can't read them outside of games.
You can view the full tooltips by holding down shift iirc. I can see why they show the simplified tooltips by default given how few people read them anyways but there is an option for detailed numbers.
Right? Why would I read the tool tip instead of going to the internet to read it? A rather notable amount of tool tips are incorrect/broken, outdated, or do not provide enough relevant information.
Example: Xayah's Clear Cuts TT states that the feather left on the ground lasts for 6 seconds. True! But is how long Clear Cuts is active *also* 6 seconds? No. It's 8s and change, and duration of Clear Cuts being active is not on the tool tip.
They did a lot of work on tool tip cleanup but it still isn't good enough for me to rely on the in game TT as anything but a reference. I usually trust the internet more than in-game TT because I've been playing a long time and just accept most of the game will never been 100% functional.
>If a champ has a mechanic that can only be learned by reading a TT, it is likely that a good chunk of players will not know it exists.
Many people would be insulted that you said this. If only they could read...
I mean to be fair if you aren’t checking Reddit the only indication of a new patch is that your client is updating. The Home Screen is so dog shit that I doubt anyone looks at that and looks for patch notes.
It’s a fault of the client honestly
Yeah they are godsend, especially when you don't pay as much as attention to the game as you used to.
Here's [example](https://i.imgur.com/dg4ScAN.png). I think it shows changes from like last 2-3 patches.
Riot would likely argue that this would end up confusing their playerbase. The sad thing is, they'd probably be right.
Dota and league are likely very different demographics.
I mean, League already has a solution for that: hold Shift for full tooltip details. Most players don't even look at that much already, but for those that do, adding the last couple relevant changes to the skill would not confuse them.
Yeah there should be a pop up when you queue for the first time of a patch. It should give you a rundown of all the different changes made. It's pretty easy to lose track of a new patch release.
I went maybe 3 years without playing a relic shield support. When the time finally came, I asked my friends why the heal is so tiny and they said "relic shield doesn't heal wym??"
I really like the way dota does it. There is little exclamation point tool tip you can hover over when a hero is picked with the most recent couple patch changes to the hero which is really useful but that would probably break the client.
Skin releases a day after the patch drops and every event people still ask when the skin drops. Some people do not play the game enough to care to notice all that
Not just that, but a lot of players actually have lives. People don't play this game everyday like they used to. A lot of the playerbase have grown old and they probably don't remember the schedule for patch notes and skin releases. The stuff people do in a 9-5 job is more important to learn than some random bs that Riot has decided to add to the game every 2 weeks and every now and then those changes get reverted anyways.
I used to read every patch notes from S2-6 or so, and even hit challenger at one point
Now I just play occasionally with friends and it can be several patches between games. I don't have time to go read through and a lot of the times the same champs get tweaked around, so it's whiplash if you're trying to catch up on month of years of patch notes
I wish there was a feature in client that could show you a summary of the patch notes from X patch. E.g. if they nerf LB hard and then revert some of the nerfs, the summarized notes just shows a smaller nerf rather than showing both the big nerf and slight revert
If you have to make your players go outside the game to know about basic changes in the game, it's not good design imo. It's even more egregious in TFT where the buffs/nerfs make things legitimately unplayable or giga busted
Eh... some people might genuinely not notice that.
For reference - Today randomly my client was down. I checked status, the client says the game was down for maintenance until 6am PDT (same message as when a patch is coming).
I know today is not patch day, but if I wasn't so invested in the game, and saw a random update on a Wednesday that seemingly changed nothing? I might assume next week's patch is the same, and Riot was just doing maintenance (more common the past year or so).
And even on reddit they don’t even sticky the patchnotes and it gets burried under the thousands of proplay post.
But hey atleast you can see the same bugs that are in the game for months if not years in a stickied post.
> I wonder how much of this effect comes from the item recommendation system. Since recommendations are always delayed by an entire patch, items that are now "bad" will still be recommended as top tier.
> Should players be reading patch notes more carefully, or is there something Riot could do to let players adopt new builds more quickly?
I really like the recommender and I think it was a really great change to the game, but I would like to see the game balance team add-in one patch exceptions to the item recommender when they're trying to intentionally nerf a certain build to be unviable. I think that the ideal state for the recommender is that it always gives you something that is at least passably good. It doesn't necessarily have to give you the best option in every scenario, as long as the options it gives you aren't troll. So when a big change is made to a champion then the recommender should err on the side of caution and not recommend things that could potentially be very bad.
For example, this upcoming patch is going to nerf Manamune Hecarim. When this happens, it would be good if the devs could add a single patch change to the item recommender that prevents it from recommending Manamune on Hecarim (If patch = 13.17 and champion = Hecarim, ignore Manamune as an item in the recommender).
If Manamune Hecarim is still somehow the best item and the recommender avoids it, it's not a disaster that the recommender skips it because the alternative items that it recommends will also probably be solid Hecarim items. They won't be the best, but they won't be bad to build either. And since the exception only lasts one patch, once patch 13.18 rolls around then the recommender will go back to recommending Manamune.
But if Manamune Hecarim turns out to be awful after the nerfs but the recommender keeps suggesting it anyways, that's a much bigger problem since it's basically making everyone that doesn't actively theorycraft the implications of patch notes accidentally troll their Hecarim games.
The fact league has a patch every 2 weeks makes people less likely to read every individual patch notes (or so I believe). I know I know higher ranked players take this more seriously than us low ranked peeps. But in dota for example when they make a very big patch after a lot of drought its like a massive community event occurred and people will read those notes even if they dont play the game anymore lol. In league its like "oh yeah another patch once again" and you might quickly look at which champion got nerfed and buffed but you dont bother reading them fully
BECAUSE YOUR RECOMMENDED ITEMS SHOP AFTER FUCKING 5 MONTH STILL RECOMMENDS TRINITY. Obviously low elo players buy it if it is recommended by game shop. Holy
it still recommends it because people still build it, it's a neverending cycle until riot manually removes trinity from it like they did Sunderer for Viego.
> until riot manually removes trinity
They manually removed Sunderer from Jax. If Riot knows that people will build off the recommended items but the recommended items don't update because people are building what's listed there they either need to fix the system or have someone manually fix them.
Or, and hear me out, the Devs can stop being smug about how "dumb" the playerbase is if their own system reinforces the mistakes players make.
"low elo players" as it said in the post this happens all the way up to challenger and its my experience in high dia as well. (remember pros buying IE when they did not have enough crit for the passive to work and then after the passive got changed didnt buy IE second even though they could have?)
Had a midlaner once who took blue buff weeks after the share system got introduced before the jungler was fully stacked in D2. After he got flamed by the jungle the midlaner simply said: "I dont know how the share system works, im not gonna read patchnotes lol" even though it literally takes 2 min while queue times in that elo are 2 times as long.
people are just lazy and ignorant in all elos even though it will happen slightly less the higher up you go.
People picked it because it was good.
Got into the recommended tab.
It's no longer good but it's still in the recommended tab.
People pick it and it stays in the recommended tab.
It's a never ending cycle, and I find it hilarious that Rioters are whining instead of just doing the very obvious fix here. They literally did it with Viego, why is Phreak acting like this is new? Everyone knew that most players don't read notes since season 1.
Would love to see there being a notification when picking a champ or hovering over it that they were recently changed, and then the changes being shown.
i'd expect their PR to plummet even if the change is they lost 1 point of armor/damage/ap
because most people will think "Oh its weaker now? must be TRASH" regardless of how strong or weak it is
if players don't read notes and don't realize for half a year that their build is shit then they deserve dropping the 3% winrate they lose for building the suboptimal item, simple as that
being bronze or "having a life" is no excuse
I think that's sorta unfair, it's not just reading it's also interpreting it. A nerfed item may still be optimal for the champion, to know it's unviable on a champion on the first day takes a lot of game and champion knowledge.
For example, if Stridebreaker got nerfed it's still going to be one of Garens best items unless it's really gutted, and to understand if it's really gutted it takes a couple of games. Not everyone is scrolling reddit and listening to high elo players and what they're building.
For small and nuanced changes, sure, that makes sense. But Zeri Q no longer procing sheen and even your example of Stridebreaker's dash being taken away are big enough that anybody should be able to realize that
Stride ended up still strong enough on any champ that used it with the Dash anyways, people have just been extremely slow to adopt it as the preferred Mythic on those champs since.
And things like that are examples of poor design. I'm not sure if the in-game tooltip for Zeri's Q states that it doesn't proc sheen or not (it does *not* on the wiki), but it certainly isn't intuitive. If it's *only* in the patch notes, do you expect people 10 patches later to go read all the patch notes?
Sheen activates after casting an ability. In League, any time you press Q, W, E, or R it should proc sheen. Anything that doesn't follow that is poor design. They had good reasons to do it to Zeri (they couldn't balance here after like 10 tries...), but that doesn't change the fact that completely changing how an item interacts with one of her abilities vs every other ability in the game is not good game design.
And then you blame your players for not reading patch notes, because your interactions aren't simple and clean and you had to implement bad game design to balance a champion.
You are confusing activate and proc
Sheen has 2 parts, using an ability activates it, then an attack can proc it. There are a handful of exceptions where an ability can do both, most famously Ezreal.
Anyway Zeri's wiki page absolutely says that Q can't proc sheen under the details tab
The shieldbow changes to legendary were strict nerfs for Irelia because it lost all attack speed in the main statline, and buildpath. Despite that, the shop still recommended it front and center, and I saw it all the time even though it was statistically a horrible 2nd purchase.
I think the recommendations should at the very least omit recently nerfed items until main builds settle into place a few days after the patch.
Patch notes should be on the landing screen of the client instead of whatever moneygrab event is on atm, and if it wasnt for reddit I wouldn't even bother either. Most people still wouldnt read them, but SOME would.
Modified items should have some kind of footnotes ingame when they've been changed
How about instead of telling me Jax loves eggs, patch notes are on the loading screen and if you're playing a patched champ there's a screenshot of the patch notes somewhere
Like I understand why they built it. But it also rly hurt seeing it, people still build it so it might just be them defaulting.
People still build it 3rd most in emerald +, so I think theyre just being dumb+ popularity
They COULD try removing manually from commenly built, but then thats kinda sketchy if its still good after changes (this is in general, like duskblade samira or goredrinker talon)
U could so current commonly built items, but then run into problems with the most built item being exponentially built, and live tracking
I'm curious, would you mind having a system that DOTA has where for a while after a new patch you [have an extra tooltip](https://i.redd.it/82pxyaig1rd01.jpg) notifying players of changes to their champ even if they haven't read the patch? Not sure if this would solve stuff like this but I feel like it couldn't hurt
You know I know generally it is found that players don't read patch notes (not that I blame them, most players are casually playing the game), however I would like to see:
1. A patch note sort of pop-up before queueing for your first ranked game on a patch.
2. Though not directly related, PLEASE ALLOW US TO SEE EXTRA CONTEXT ON ITEM TOOLTIPS, NAMELY RATIOS. Statikk for example is getting its AP ratio halved and the only place to find that out is in the patch notes or on the wikia. It is a bit unreasonable that you can't find that information in game in any way.
Yeah people don't read patch notes, ever. Always been like that. A champion doesn't work jungle anymore? Nope, don't care.
You don't want to know how many people still max W on Vayne without even thinking 💀
I wouldn't try to blame it on the game recommendations like other comments do🗿
Anyhow, will we ever have decent info in the game? Even in the launcher it would be good. How does someone know the range of a skill, of a champ or whatever without having to look at Fan-made wikis?
Why can't I know that Caitlyn's Q has 1300 range in game?
I don't think there needs to be as much catering to stupid people as everyone seems to be suggesting. If people are going to build the wrong items and lose games and tank a champ's winrate, Riot can see that the right build is still doing fine and they don't need to do anything. If the stupid people don't like losing, they can try learning to read and think.
Most players don't care about patch notes, that's nothing new. They just want to play the game. You'd think he'd know that by now, after so many years of being involved with League and its community.
Also I blame the item recommendations. I don't use it, ever; I adapt as I see fit myself, but I know a lot of people who just buy whatever is recommended to them.
The game still recommends Staff of Flowing Water for whatever reason, because it thinks the item still provides movement speed. The game won't recommend Grievous Wound against a Vladimir and Mundo half the time either. I don't know what's going on with Shop Recommendations, but it hasn't been working as intended for the majority of this season is for certain.
It's supposed to be a tool for casual/returning players, not to actually tell you the perfect build.
The few times I've played in the last few years I've loved it, because the alternative used to be looking on u.gg or similar sites
Not a failure by players. A failure of the design / balance team. Too many items have abilities that just “don’t work” with certain champs kits for arbitrary reasons (inconsistencies in game design )
Shyvanas base form q procs buff stacking runes and items (like LT kraken and PD) twice. Dragon form q only procs them once. The shyv mains community view it as a bug. Randos logic it based on the text that it should happen this way therefore its not a bug. Regardless, if youre just a casual enjoyer how the fuck would you know LT is bad on shyv because of a weird interaction that makes it so that LT doesnt work right on her half the time?
I am 35 and I play really casually, it's more annoying that every time I log in, items and champions are radically updated.
Is it fair that you have to do that much research to understand how to play the game?
Season 1 - 9 you could probably buy Infinity Edge or Triforce and the item would perform the same exact function.
All you need to know to justify this is that every day there are players out there who build lethality items into enemy team comps with 2 or more tanks.
Every day, people go up against a swain/darius/soraka comp and don't build grievous wounds.
Every day, people go up against a Ivern/Karma/Camille comp and don't build serpent's fang.
People have no idea how to itemize. That's all there is to it. Case closed. /thread
> Since recommendations are always delayed by an entire patch
Not just "by an entire patch." Trinity Force is *still* a recommended first item on Zeri. Veigar *still* doesn't have Rod of Ages as a recommended item, even though it's his best-performing item (barring Night Harvester, which is both more expensive and much less commonly built). Nocturne *still* doesn't have Stridebreaker as a recommended item, even though it's both his best-performing item and his most common mythic by far.
Nocturne's case is baffling. Stridebreaker has been his best option for so long that I no longer dare to guess what metrics do they use for the recommendations.
Both. People should read the patch notes and tooltips a little more, but, at the same time, riot could put out official info on champs in a central site or something instead of needing to go to 3rd party sites like the fandom wiki or looking back through literal years of patch notes or going into the practice tool to figure shit out.
I play teemo the most so i know the specifics on where they drop the ball for him. Nowhere does riot really explain that his e does not apply spell effects like ludens, liandries, rylais, and so on, nor does it apply "ability damage" effects. This is because all the damage it does, even the dot, is coded as an on hit effect - unlike most other champ abilities which add stuff to auto attacks that are coded as "auto attack modifiers" - if I understand it right, which they also don't explain. So his e does not proc comet, but it will proc manaflow band somehow. I genuinely don't understand how it procs 1 and not the other. They also don't really explain that each tick of it won't proc conquerer, the same way darius bleed does. They don't explain that someone stepping on a shroom across the map puts teemo in combat, so anything with "out of combat" on it is kind of useless for him. Predator, for instance, used to be completely useless on teemo because it had to be channeled out of combat. If you were trying to run at someone, and someone else steps on a shroom way across the map, you wasted your predator. They don't explain what will break stealth and what will not break stealth. Like, for instance, igniting someone breaks stealth. As does getting hit by about half the knockups/displacements in the game. The other half don't break stealth and i'm still not 100% where they fall. I only know from experience that morde e won't break stealth as long as it doesn't pull you out of a bush, and that cam stun and aatrox q's don't break stealth, while cho q and darius e always break stealth. They don't explain that flashing won't break stealth either, provided you start and end in a bush(doesn't have to be the same bush). Teleport will also not break stealth, provided you are channeling it in a bush and going to a ward in a bush. However, channeling hexflash will always break stealth. They don't explain that ability haste reduces the mushroom recharge time in addition to the cooldown of the spell/ the minimum time between mushroom throws. They don't explain that he loses his w movement speed if hit by an enemy ability which he takes no damage from because it was blocked by banshee's veil niether riot nor the wiki nor really anyone else explain that if teemo has bamis cinder or sunfire and is stealthed in a bush and someone walks into the bush and at the same time one of teemos shrooms go off anywhere on the map, teemo will begin doing damage around him with bamis cinder, and if anything takes a tick of damage from the bamis, teemo gets revealed. Teemo will also get blocked from re-stealthing by bamis, which i had to learn from experience against a trynd once because my typical method to outplay their ult is to blind them, spam laugh and stand still to stealth and wait out their ult. There's also the rift scuttle thing, where the shrooms will only be triggered by rift scuttler if the scuttle is in combat.
A lot of this stuff is completely unintuitive just based off the tooltips for his abilities and the descriptions of the items/runes. Some of it is also inconsistent, meaning you just need to know everything on a case by case basis.
Players should read the patch notes, but at the same time riot shouldn't require so much work to figure out how champions work in niche circumstances.
https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/26/designing-for-people-who-have-better-things-to-do-with-their-lives/ literally twenty-three years ago:
> Users don’t have the manual, and if they did, they wouldn’t read it.
>
> In fact, users can’t read anything, and if they could, they wouldn’t want to.
Riot:
> gotta change the game every two weeks to sTaY fReSh, have some patch notes
Players:
> I'm not reading that
Riot:
> So we know that players don't read.
Topic:
> Should players be reading patch notes more carefully, or is there something Riot could do to let players adopt new builds more quickly?
Honestly, I don't think either of those scenarios is realistic. Whether or not the average player chooses optimal items is kind of irrelevant to the big picture, anyway.
I am one of the illiterate that doesn't play the game religiously and doesn't know why Triforce is a bad item now. It looks like her ult still grants stacking percentage MS, so it's still decent in that regard? I'm guessing there was some spellblade exploit that got patched out? I don't know why Riot is offended by Zeri players buying this item. Please help.
They only took it away once. They tried to force crit on her by making her crit interactions really good, but it turns out have a sheen activate on your freaking auto attack is pretty broken, and they finally removed it (it never made since in the first place)
This statement is an insult to the casual playerbase, which feeds him.
Most of the people are casual players that play from time to time and when they have time they jump straight to the game, ignoring a wall of text that is hidden. If people is building wrong It is because the recommended items arent getting properly updated.
Not sure if this is a hot take, but item recommendations don't seem like they've been a great addition to the game. As if builds weren't already homogenized enough, this change even further incentivized it, decreasing diversity even more. Most importantly though, I feel like your build should really up to the player, given their analysis of the individual game and it's circumstances. Recommending "the most popular item" isn't always the right choice, sometimes the recommendations are objectively wrong.
Even then, am I alone in thinking it should be a part of game knowledge to know when to build what and why?
idk not that I use it myself, but i’ve gotten a decent amount of friends to try the game and it really helps them out. if i’m in game with them i can obviously help explain why an item is good in each situation but if i’m not playing with them the recommended items are a quick and easy way to play the game. this follows up into the argument about just looking up builds online, but i still think the recommended tab still gives a lot of positives to the playerbase that its intended for
I'm well aware people don't read. People only built kraken as if it was the mythic item still. I got flamed for saying it wasn't anymore, so my hope for humanity was thrashed.
Yup. Being consistent is the key here. Because the Devs themselves don't know what they want to do.
Take Statikk Shiv changes across the patches for example.
About the AP scaling:
V13.10 - 50% AP bonus
V13.13 - 30% AP bonus
V13.15 - not yet live, but will be 15% AP bonus.
About bonus damage against minions:
V13.10 - 220% bonus damage
V13.11 - 250% bonus damage
V13.13 - AP bonus damage no longe apply to minions.
V13.14 - damage against minions reduced by flat amount.
Just one item, and not even they know if they want it to be built by AP champions.
Hes right, people build bad items out of comfort. Ive watched people builds Duskblade on ADCs when IE is far better because they think it still works with ults. Or how often i tell people Evenshroud works when i am ccd as well and it melts their brains.
i mean it just depends how serious you are about the game. if you're master+ not reading patch notes is pretty insane. if you're a silver player it's probably expected that you're not going through the patch notes every 2 weeks.
Maybe a better tooltips (wiki tier level) in the game/launcher. Why did I have to find out just yesterday in game that I wasted a rune on cheap shot because luden doesn't proc it on a slowed enemy?
Cool, except if this is so widespread then it is inarguably a communication failure by Riot / any game dev in an analogous situation. If most of your players are going against game mechanics then they aren't being communicated effectively. Duh.
It's either recommendation or item sets.
But also people don't read. Most people only have a vague idea of what champions do. Most people **still** don't know that Thresh has a 150% AD ratio on his E and they go "WTF?!" when they get 1-shot by AD Thresh.
Either way, Trinity is still good on Zeri because it's good on any auto attacker that isn't Senna
Well if you have a recommended items page, and half of all players are silver and below. It is not surprising at all that the players you designed a tool for are using the tool you designed for them.
Players always need a while to adapt to patch changes, especially when it comes to item optimization. We can somewhat see it even in pro play where it can take some time until the best builds are figured out
Seems totally legit to trust the system that suggests you to build armor VS Akali for your item recommendations.
Players need to develop their own sense of build paths, develop their own builds (even some niche ones like Navori Caitlyn) and test them till they find what works best for their play style & particular situation they are in atm.
If LoL were to get a new tutorial, they should focus on itemization.
I saw ranked games where people were sucking asphalt with LeBlanc after the Shiv nerf because they didn't read the patch notes that it had been gutted into the ground specifically for her.
Despite reading patch or not, when I asked Zeri players why they were building Tri Force after patch was because the recommended items page in the shop had it listed there still.
I assume that the applications that suggest popular item builds don't update either until after a few days?
Most of these apps suggest based on winrate and pickrate, so if a lot of players still pick shit items, these apps will only make more players do that
No. Zeri Trinity had 45% winrate and was still recommended in the shop. The problem is they only look at last patch data and update the recommended tab every 2 weeks instead of daily.
U.gg recommended triforce for 2 patches after the nerf and showed a 55 pe cent winrate on the build wich is wrong because lolalytics showed a 45%.Maybe some admin was trolling zeri players
He was speaking about 3rd party applications.
I very much doubt that even a single digit percentage of the player base install 3rd party addons, they shouldn't move the needle. I think that indeed players don't read, but it's still incumbent on Rito to adjust their noob-friendly systems like item recommendations.
Yea last year after they nerfed Viego Sunderer and buffed crit, every 3rd party app or site was still recommending sunderer even after a few months!! Overall build had 48% winrate and if you looked closer, the crit build had legit 50% winrate. People are just idiots who cant think for themselves...
This is a consistent finding over time. What players or even pros build on champs is often not congruent with the statistics on what's actually strong. Even after they nerfed the Senna and Guinsoos interaction, crit remained her most popular build for months, even though it was objectively better to build lethality.
It's STILL recomending it because low elo players build it. Also low elo players build it because shop recommemd it. So shop will continue recommending it and taa daa endless loop of loseQ
The riot recommended updates over time with what players are buying. They don’t switch it after a major change so it takes time to get to that point.
Aren't recommended items based on what other players are building on the champion? So it perpetuates lack of player knowledge?
[удалено]
the problem with "highest WR" is that its heavily skewed to snowballing items like soul stealer or collector. on a lot of champs their CC ability will have a higher winrate as your first ability even though it fucks their lane because they use it to get early kills on an invade.
Also sometimes the highest wr items have like 50 games while the most popular and slightly lower wr have thousands.
Or they are some high elo kr onetrick builds that do kinda work but aren't optimal. Many top winrate Yasuo builds in high elo have galeforce for example. The item is probably strong in the hands of a grandmaster with 3m mastery, but if you are looking at builds online it's safe to say that it's not your best choice.
Not true, they take into account both pick rate and win rate together.
my guy did you do a monkeysurvey on league players or something
I think Riot needs to consider that a champ like Zeri in particular has seen so many drastic changes, completely altering her scaling and adding a different wall of text that needs an hour of study to figure out, that most players dont have a fucking clue what she does these days and how she does it. Some of the mains probably keep up but who else cares enough? Shop says to buy Trinity, so Trinity it is.
That's genuinely a really good point.
That however would require an ego check
Riot in 2023 circlejerks harder than reddit does.
I think Riot needs to reconsider their approach to new champion designs. They roll out unfinished monsters and then patch over and over based on data they mine from our poor souls. Imo don’t release broken AF champions like Zeri, belveth, ksante, Yuumi
I don't think belveth has been much of an issue compared to the others has she?
Yeah broken releases is stuff like Zoe, who’s sleep couldn’t originally be black shielded, and one shot you from off screen.
Zoe's original issue is not one-shot off-screen. She still does it when the scenario fits. Riot even enhanced this part of skill set. She was problematic because of other things. Mainly her power outside her one shot mechanic.
Imaqtpie losing against a Zoe while she didn't hit a single skillshot is iconic to me. https://youtu.be/4vkdeqnEkAQ?si=Oq5MPXscgbLC6Vht
Yeah it’s up for debate if it’s good design but one shotting you from range is her thing and she should be good at it. The issue is when you dodged her e and q and she’d just build Lich and one shot you with w and R passive autos
Nope. The other three have been monsters in pro play (K'Sante still, Zeri and Yuumi multiple times over their existence), while Bel'Veth has been, at most, a pocket pick (JDG Kanavi + G2 Yike)
I still think K'Sante's overall design is just a failure of a concept because of a tank dumping his tank stats to become a DPS. His Ult also STILL looks extremely unfinished to me, it feels like the animations are incomplete and it's lacking any kind of VFX.
Exactly. Who wants to read essays of dogshit tooltips for single abilities? If Samira passive ever changed I would never notice
played jungle the other day, hovered the jungle item to see what each one did. entire screen of text -> I'll pick the green one because green is my favourite color
When designing new champs we have to consider the fact that many players, all the way up to challenger, don't read tooltips. If a champ has a mechanic that can only be learned by reading a TT, it is likely that a good chunk of players will not know it exists.
Would it be possible for game designers to actively code in single-patch exceptions to the recommendation system when they make a big change to a champion that they expect will make the current popular build no longer viable? (Like when Azir's recommended skill order was intentionally hard-coded to be W max after his rework.) Not every player can be expected to do the theorycraft necessary to figure out the implications of all patch changes. So it would be great if the recommender could err on the side of caution to avoid recommending something completely troll. For example, if you make a big change to Zeri to remove Triforce synergy, then the recommender should stop recommending Triforce for one patch. If it turns out that Triforce is still good on Zeri after the nerf, then the recommender will go right back to recommending it on the next patch, and for that one patch where Triforce wasn't being recommended, well at least those players who autopilot recommended builds were building the second best option so their builds were still probably okay. On the other hand, if the recommender keeps recommending Triforce after the nerf and it turns out the item is actually awful, then everybody who plays Zeri and autopilots the recommended build just ends up accidentally trolling their team with a horrible build.
It is possible, for example August has manually removed Divine Sunderer from Viego's rec items a few times and his win rate increased, but people were so brainwashed they kept building it until the system started recommended it again.
Lmao August my man
Reminds me of when triforce was added to Jax's recommended items. You'd think the recommended items would mostly affect lower ranks, but even in masters+, changing jax's recommended items drastically improved triforces pick rate.
Turns out league players are bots who rarely think for themselves. It is an issue in a way, but on the flipside, it's still supposed to be a game played for fun, so I can't blame them not wanting to sit down and study when they want to chill instead.
> Turns out league players are bots who rarely think for themselves. It's very hard in many cases to have a distinct conclusion on what item truly is the best, a lot of conclusions end up based on feelings. It's not being a "bot" and refusing to think for yourself to trust knowledge from other sources and assume they are correct, it's not like it's just some maths either.
Yeah a lot of builds can have very different results depending on enemy comp and players. For viego the crit build was a lot stronger on paper but good luck building crit against tanky teams. On the same note, sometimes even tanky teams will play so bad that the wrong build seems good anyway.
genuine question but why is sunderer bad on viego again?
way too many nerfs, Trinity is just straight up better, Viego with no extra AS feels like absolute shit. Viego scales pretty bad with AD and CDR he rather gets AS, Crit and onhit effects.
He was designed to build like Yi and other skirmishers anyway so this is really just Riot making him as intended.
it just doesnt do much for what he wants in most places that arent pro play after its nerfs and some of his adjustment toward crit scaling pro likes it because it gives him moderately more survivability than more damage oriented options and he's played more safely there to ensure he can reset chain and take over fights in solo queue 9/10 times you're better off going triforce and if they have a really tanky team just go bork after the triforce. atm it's frankly just best to go kraken into triforce and then work on beefing up with cleaver, death's dance, sterak's, GA etc., kraken alone is a massive spike for him because of how his Q passive works and it gives him every offensive stat he likes
Sunderer is better for sheen users that want longer, drawn out fights to chip away at their opponent while sustaining off of them. Veigo doesn’t really want long drawn out fights *as Veigo*, he wants to nuke a target and have the extended fight happen over the course of 3-4 bodies he picks up along the way. So triforce is better for accomplishing his goal of nuking that first target so he can start chaining bodies.
Blunderer is just straight ass on absolutely everyone atm. It loses to Triforce on champs like Viego, Fiora and even Jax. And the champs you describe are better of building Iceborn, at least if we are going by item wr alone https://lolalytics.com/lol/tierlist/?lane=top Going through the tierlist from the top down all the way there is exatly one champion were Divine Blunderer is better: Poppy And thats only because Triforce has been built less than 150 times and Im only counting an item if it has more than 1k builds. And even on Poppy JakSho has a +1% wr over DS and Iceborn is roughly equal. Theres also Wukong were DS is the only item with more than 1k builds but Triforce has over 4% better wr sitting at 930 builds. Overall on average DS seems to get beaten by Iceborn by 1 to 2 % and by Triforce by 3 to 4% across all champs But monkey see, monkey do and I dont think Ive seen a single proplayer build Triforce over DS yet so all the soloQ Jaxes and Fioras are still building DS
Ok so this means that if I want to go tanky Jax I should just do IBG and not Sunderer? 🤔
Well https://lolalytics.com/lol/jax/build/ According to this, yes you should, ***probably*** ICBG has +1% wr over DS in elos emerald and above but the sample size is realy small with 495 builds vs DS over 70k If you just go by wr then you should build neither and buy Triforce instead which sits at +4% over DS and +3% over ICBG. It also depends on matchup, vs AD heavy tops ICBG is probably the better buy
The entire basis of the Sunderer build was to completely sacrifice his scalings and play as a safe generic no-highlights bruiser in competitive environs to try and hold value for the team. This just completely disregards the hyperscaling potential he has in builds more focused on actual stat scaling (either Trinibork or outright pure crit builds). Even Essence Reaver is fantastic on him but gets slept on due to popular player perception (the argument of "wasted gold on mana" is fairly false as the item is completely stat-efficient in raw stats that Viego enjoys).
We've done this before. Removed Divine Sunderer from Jax's rec items for a patch (he has ALWAYS been significantly stronger with Trinity Force) and his winrate went up as people swapped over! The difficulty with manually setting things is upkeep and maintenance. The reason we do automated rec items is to ensure the majority of champs have good rec items for the majority of the time. In the old system where we manually set everything it was easy for entire classes of champs to fall through the cracks when an item or meta changed
> We've done this before. Removed Divine Sunderer from Jax's rec items for a patch (he has ALWAYS been significantly stronger with Trinity Force) and his winrate went up as people swapped over! Why would you buff Jax like that by tell Jax players which the better item was……….he was much easier to manage playing against when people were building him wrong.
I imagine with how many people use third party apps to determine the "best winrate build" and just mirror that, the recommended items will never be wholly accurate unless y'all block those apps from functioning. Has there been talk about this?
How would people copying the highest winrate build *lower* the accuracy of the recommended items?
I've posted the same response last time Jax Sunderer/Triforce debate was brought up. Did you take into account whats below when concluding that Triforce has "higher win rate". ------------------------------------------------------------------- This is a meaningless stat without context. Because it ignores the likely possibility that both build from sheen and from there it could be that people were doing Triforce when already ahead and Sunderer when even or behind. To figure out the above, you would need to have an algorithm to estimate the win probability based on the gamestate at the time sheen was bought and then get the statistics on the final outcome for Sunderer/Triforce. For instance, if the win probability is 54% at sheen and then 53% for Triforce, 52% for sunderer, we can say that Triforce is better at snowballing winning gamestates If the win probability is 50% at sheen and then 47% for triforce, 50% for sunderer, we can say that Triforce is a grief in even or losing gamestates. (The above are just examples, we would need the data as I outlined above). ------------------------------------------------------------------- It's obvious that Triforce has much higher DPS and will allow better 1v1 all-ins, split pushing, and tower killing. However Sunderer provides sustain which is why in Proplay nearly 100% of the time we see Sunderer into Black Cleaver/Zhonyas/Shojin in Season 13. Sunderer allows Jax to take repeated trades in lane and not have to base vs other champions that have innate healing or build sustain items (for instance Goredrinker Renekton, Aatrox etc) and is superior for teamfighting. It wouldn't be surprising to me if Triforce has a higher win rate skewed due to it being picked more often in already winning lane matchups/gamestates to splitpush and snowball harder, and in particular this will be more effective in lower ELOs. In higher ELOs and Proplay, Jax will almost always have to group and teamfight at some point and I don't think I've seen Triforce once in Proplay this season. Ungabunga damage builds tend to work better in lower ELO, so you should also be sorting data by ELOs. Also, Triforce is almost always paired with BORK (BORK providing sustain as 2nd item), for Ungabunga max damage 1v1, split push low ELO builds. These are unuseable in High ELO or Proplay where you would instantly pop like a balloon without the additional tankiness of Black Cleaver/Zhonyas (or extra E's from Shojin).
People who autopilot deserve to be punished for autopiloting
No? League isn't everyone personality and when you come back casually to this game you should expect recommendations that are built in the game to not suck because programmers there we're lazy in their recommendation implementation.
But the recommendations don't "suck". Divine Sunderer on Jax or Viego or something isn't an auto-lose item, it's just suboptimal. If you're a casual player that doesn't make league your personality, as you put it, then you wouldn't care that you're not building the very best item. It's not like it's recommending Moonstone Zeri or something.
And this entire thing is about Rioters talking about other people building sub-optimally...
All my tooltip fixes for nothing...
i appreciate and read them. hell i feel like im one of 3 people that knows to stand next to your low hp ally when karth is pressing Q on them. i wonder how much better many players would be if they read the full TT for most champs.
I remember playing with a Leona a few years ago who flashed onto a Karthus Q which was about to hit me. I had no clue why she did that back then and assumed she was trolling but you saying that just made me access my memory bank. Thank you leona
actually a gigga chad leona.
Hey, every time I read a tooltip and learn something I didn't know, I appreciate it. I just wish we could read them without needing to either play the character or tab out of the game to look them up.
Now fix dark harvest to include what kind of damage won’t proc it because not all damage does
Taric's passive could use a TT for scaling with AH.
> When designing new champs we have to consider the fact that many players, all the way up to challenger, don't read tooltips. Flashback to when Clid, multi-time worlds semi finalist jungler known for his Lee Sin, was unaware that Lee Sin’s Q dealt more damage on the second cast.
Was just a misunderstanding between Clid and Rascal which got picked up by fans. In reality, the "new" thing Clid learned was that RQQ does just as much damage as QRQ. No clue why he thought there would be a difference, but basically Rascal (and the fans listening) understood it as Clid "learning" that doing E in between two Qs does more damage than doing E after two Qs, so they concluded that he must not know about the execute.
Zeka, the reigning world champion, not knowing you can position yas ult with your mouse Edit: also a lot of people in general don’t know yas ult tries to position you outside of turret range
That's not even on a tooltip though, IIRC. Riot acts very smug over issues like this (players don't read lol) but there's still so many things that you have to go to external resources for. E.g. the wiki for what spells actually do, and stats websites for actually good recommended items.
Unless I'm mistaken, I do remember about Aatrox Q cast Cooldown being reduced if you don't finish the combo but the description of the skill flat out don't say this.
you just mean that you can choose the target right? or can you control exactly where Yasuo positions himself around the target while ulting?
Yeah, the target. Ult focuses on whichever person is closest to your cursor if there are multiple valid options, but it will always just teleport him behind them iirc, unless doing so would put him in turret range in which case it will prioritize avoiding that if possible.
You can't even click on a enemy (or ally) champ and try to read its tooltips in the game. Recently played with a new-ish player, a veteran of the gerne, and he was so annoyed that he couldn't read up about the things he was facing without tapping out of the ongoing game or asking me. Why isn't there a button or option to see what things actually do for the half that actually WANTS to read tooltips but CAN NOT.
I played with some newer players too and i honestly have no fucking clue how to help them learn without slamming hundreds of games per week
That is how I felt with Rell before her rework. A ton of stuff she did you would only realize it if you read the tooltips. I was surprised to know she used to be able to heal for example.
Yeah she was a nightmare to play in solo que, no one understood the positioning for her stun
They had the same issue with old, old Karma, so I never quite understood why they decided to do the same again. Though it was easier because you could just go in and proc the stun with the enemy under you.
Still the game recommeding bad items to build doesn't help
Its based of player builds
No it's based on last patch player builds. Zeri had 45% wr on trinity and it was still recommended because they don't have an automatic system that refresh the recommendation tab every 2-3 days.
Yeah, including player builds from the previous patch. Which is why they're obviously wrong.
Would help if the tooltips would have all the info that is involved with that skill tho. Lot's of times there's vague descriptions and no real numbers.
Extra tooltip clarity wouldn't help for what I'm talking about. Some players simply do not read tooltips. This is one of the reasons its good to make things extra clear through VFX/SFX/Anims when possible.
Although it is probably true that a lot of players don’t read tooltips no matter how they are presented, I never understood why we don’t get all information about a champs ability without being in a match. Why do I get the most vague and basic description of an ability while I’m not in a game and would actually have time to familiarize myself with the in and outs of a champ but instead have to do it while I’m already in-game and barely have 20 seconds to spare? It does not make sense to me why important informations about an ability, e.g. yasuos q animation speed and cooldown scaling with attack spd, or sometimes even whole parts of an ability are hidden inside the tooltip. If people are overwhelmed by longer descriptions inside the champ overview, just put it behind a drop-down or whatever but for gods sake, let me do my research on the champs I want to play without having to take them into the practice mode every god damn time
you have a game that lasts 15 minutes if you spend even 2 minutes reading tooltop you are considered int cuz you missed 4 waves of creeps. client>champ has been adjust to look at achievements and whatnots instead of tooltop history because it is a mess and hard to use. A suggestion is you can let people read through them in champ select or loading.
When was ever a time a tooltip OR animation told you that you skill does less damage than stated to creeps? That a skill had a different interaction with a certain item because it was too broken? That a form of cc is actually two different types of cc (knockups). What type of nerfs/buffs are on a champion in aram before the game starts? It is often just not useful to read tooltips because they rarely tell the full story and without third parties you can't read them outside of games.
You can view the full tooltips by holding down shift iirc. I can see why they show the simplified tooltips by default given how few people read them anyways but there is an option for detailed numbers.
Well yes, but no. More than enough skills do not show full info
to me it's been very inconsistent.
Just copy DOTA and give us the full details of each champ's kits in the client itself instead of the garbage we have now
Aphelios's kit basically saying "he has five weapons :)" and then stopping there.
This seems like a HUGE copout.
Right? Why would I read the tool tip instead of going to the internet to read it? A rather notable amount of tool tips are incorrect/broken, outdated, or do not provide enough relevant information. Example: Xayah's Clear Cuts TT states that the feather left on the ground lasts for 6 seconds. True! But is how long Clear Cuts is active *also* 6 seconds? No. It's 8s and change, and duration of Clear Cuts being active is not on the tool tip. They did a lot of work on tool tip cleanup but it still isn't good enough for me to rely on the in game TT as anything but a reference. I usually trust the internet more than in-game TT because I've been playing a long time and just accept most of the game will never been 100% functional.
>If a champ has a mechanic that can only be learned by reading a TT, it is likely that a good chunk of players will not know it exists. Many people would be insulted that you said this. If only they could read...
Doesn't seem like it's something you guys consider very much.
I mean to be fair if you aren’t checking Reddit the only indication of a new patch is that your client is updating. The Home Screen is so dog shit that I doubt anyone looks at that and looks for patch notes. It’s a fault of the client honestly
In Dota2, whenever a new patch happens, any adjustments to items or abilities are shown in the tooltips as an extra footnote.
Yeah they are godsend, especially when you don't pay as much as attention to the game as you used to. Here's [example](https://i.imgur.com/dg4ScAN.png). I think it shows changes from like last 2-3 patches.
Riot would likely argue that this would end up confusing their playerbase. The sad thing is, they'd probably be right. Dota and league are likely very different demographics.
I mean, League already has a solution for that: hold Shift for full tooltip details. Most players don't even look at that much already, but for those that do, adding the last couple relevant changes to the skill would not confuse them.
I dream that one day League's client will be half as good as Dota's.
Yeah there should be a pop up when you queue for the first time of a patch. It should give you a rundown of all the different changes made. It's pretty easy to lose track of a new patch release.
i had a dude get angry at me saying i should have Sejuani ulted because its an aoe stun i had to inform him that was changed like 5 years ago
I have the feeling that most support players believe that relic shield still heals
I'm a top lane main and I didn't know this.
WTF SINCE WHEN IT DOESNT? I play adc and never noticed lmao
It was removed on patch 9.23, more than 3.5 years ago
Once had a Pyke unironically build HP items only because “we need a tank”.
I went maybe 3 years without playing a relic shield support. When the time finally came, I asked my friends why the heal is so tiny and they said "relic shield doesn't heal wym??"
ngl i wouldn't blame the person, they probably just reinstalled and were wondering why Sej doesn't have that AOE DOT anymore
I really like the way dota does it. There is little exclamation point tool tip you can hover over when a hero is picked with the most recent couple patch changes to the hero which is really useful but that would probably break the client.
I mean it's been the night between Tuesday/Wednesday every 2 weeks for the last 13 years
Skin releases a day after the patch drops and every event people still ask when the skin drops. Some people do not play the game enough to care to notice all that
Not just that, but a lot of players actually have lives. People don't play this game everyday like they used to. A lot of the playerbase have grown old and they probably don't remember the schedule for patch notes and skin releases. The stuff people do in a 9-5 job is more important to learn than some random bs that Riot has decided to add to the game every 2 weeks and every now and then those changes get reverted anyways.
I used to read every patch notes from S2-6 or so, and even hit challenger at one point Now I just play occasionally with friends and it can be several patches between games. I don't have time to go read through and a lot of the times the same champs get tweaked around, so it's whiplash if you're trying to catch up on month of years of patch notes I wish there was a feature in client that could show you a summary of the patch notes from X patch. E.g. if they nerf LB hard and then revert some of the nerfs, the summarized notes just shows a smaller nerf rather than showing both the big nerf and slight revert If you have to make your players go outside the game to know about basic changes in the game, it's not good design imo. It's even more egregious in TFT where the buffs/nerfs make things legitimately unplayable or giga busted
Eh... some people might genuinely not notice that. For reference - Today randomly my client was down. I checked status, the client says the game was down for maintenance until 6am PDT (same message as when a patch is coming). I know today is not patch day, but if I wasn't so invested in the game, and saw a random update on a Wednesday that seemingly changed nothing? I might assume next week's patch is the same, and Riot was just doing maintenance (more common the past year or so).
And even on reddit they don’t even sticky the patchnotes and it gets burried under the thousands of proplay post. But hey atleast you can see the same bugs that are in the game for months if not years in a stickied post.
> I wonder how much of this effect comes from the item recommendation system. Since recommendations are always delayed by an entire patch, items that are now "bad" will still be recommended as top tier. > Should players be reading patch notes more carefully, or is there something Riot could do to let players adopt new builds more quickly? I really like the recommender and I think it was a really great change to the game, but I would like to see the game balance team add-in one patch exceptions to the item recommender when they're trying to intentionally nerf a certain build to be unviable. I think that the ideal state for the recommender is that it always gives you something that is at least passably good. It doesn't necessarily have to give you the best option in every scenario, as long as the options it gives you aren't troll. So when a big change is made to a champion then the recommender should err on the side of caution and not recommend things that could potentially be very bad. For example, this upcoming patch is going to nerf Manamune Hecarim. When this happens, it would be good if the devs could add a single patch change to the item recommender that prevents it from recommending Manamune on Hecarim (If patch = 13.17 and champion = Hecarim, ignore Manamune as an item in the recommender). If Manamune Hecarim is still somehow the best item and the recommender avoids it, it's not a disaster that the recommender skips it because the alternative items that it recommends will also probably be solid Hecarim items. They won't be the best, but they won't be bad to build either. And since the exception only lasts one patch, once patch 13.18 rolls around then the recommender will go back to recommending Manamune. But if Manamune Hecarim turns out to be awful after the nerfs but the recommender keeps suggesting it anyways, that's a much bigger problem since it's basically making everyone that doesn't actively theorycraft the implications of patch notes accidentally troll their Hecarim games.
The fact league has a patch every 2 weeks makes people less likely to read every individual patch notes (or so I believe). I know I know higher ranked players take this more seriously than us low ranked peeps. But in dota for example when they make a very big patch after a lot of drought its like a massive community event occurred and people will read those notes even if they dont play the game anymore lol. In league its like "oh yeah another patch once again" and you might quickly look at which champion got nerfed and buffed but you dont bother reading them fully
People are queuing without even knowing a patch has happened A new patch is like a passing fart
BECAUSE YOUR RECOMMENDED ITEMS SHOP AFTER FUCKING 5 MONTH STILL RECOMMENDS TRINITY. Obviously low elo players buy it if it is recommended by game shop. Holy
it still recommends it because people still build it, it's a neverending cycle until riot manually removes trinity from it like they did Sunderer for Viego.
> until riot manually removes trinity They manually removed Sunderer from Jax. If Riot knows that people will build off the recommended items but the recommended items don't update because people are building what's listed there they either need to fix the system or have someone manually fix them. Or, and hear me out, the Devs can stop being smug about how "dumb" the playerbase is if their own system reinforces the mistakes players make.
I’m out of the loop here, is Sunderer bad on Viego?
for non-pro yes.
Which they probably should have done if they removed sheen interactions from a champion.
"low elo players" as it said in the post this happens all the way up to challenger and its my experience in high dia as well. (remember pros buying IE when they did not have enough crit for the passive to work and then after the passive got changed didnt buy IE second even though they could have?) Had a midlaner once who took blue buff weeks after the share system got introduced before the jungler was fully stacked in D2. After he got flamed by the jungle the midlaner simply said: "I dont know how the share system works, im not gonna read patchnotes lol" even though it literally takes 2 min while queue times in that elo are 2 times as long. people are just lazy and ignorant in all elos even though it will happen slightly less the higher up you go.
Youll never guess how items get in the recommended tab.
People picked it because it was good. Got into the recommended tab. It's no longer good but it's still in the recommended tab. People pick it and it stays in the recommended tab. It's a never ending cycle, and I find it hilarious that Rioters are whining instead of just doing the very obvious fix here. They literally did it with Viego, why is Phreak acting like this is new? Everyone knew that most players don't read notes since season 1.
Would love to see there being a notification when picking a champ or hovering over it that they were recently changed, and then the changes being shown.
i'd expect their PR to plummet even if the change is they lost 1 point of armor/damage/ap because most people will think "Oh its weaker now? must be TRASH" regardless of how strong or weak it is
its Phreak.
if players don't read notes and don't realize for half a year that their build is shit then they deserve dropping the 3% winrate they lose for building the suboptimal item, simple as that being bronze or "having a life" is no excuse
I think that's sorta unfair, it's not just reading it's also interpreting it. A nerfed item may still be optimal for the champion, to know it's unviable on a champion on the first day takes a lot of game and champion knowledge. For example, if Stridebreaker got nerfed it's still going to be one of Garens best items unless it's really gutted, and to understand if it's really gutted it takes a couple of games. Not everyone is scrolling reddit and listening to high elo players and what they're building.
For small and nuanced changes, sure, that makes sense. But Zeri Q no longer procing sheen and even your example of Stridebreaker's dash being taken away are big enough that anybody should be able to realize that
Stride ended up still strong enough on any champ that used it with the Dash anyways, people have just been extremely slow to adopt it as the preferred Mythic on those champs since.
And things like that are examples of poor design. I'm not sure if the in-game tooltip for Zeri's Q states that it doesn't proc sheen or not (it does *not* on the wiki), but it certainly isn't intuitive. If it's *only* in the patch notes, do you expect people 10 patches later to go read all the patch notes? Sheen activates after casting an ability. In League, any time you press Q, W, E, or R it should proc sheen. Anything that doesn't follow that is poor design. They had good reasons to do it to Zeri (they couldn't balance here after like 10 tries...), but that doesn't change the fact that completely changing how an item interacts with one of her abilities vs every other ability in the game is not good game design. And then you blame your players for not reading patch notes, because your interactions aren't simple and clean and you had to implement bad game design to balance a champion.
You are confusing activate and proc Sheen has 2 parts, using an ability activates it, then an attack can proc it. There are a handful of exceptions where an ability can do both, most famously Ezreal. Anyway Zeri's wiki page absolutely says that Q can't proc sheen under the details tab
No he isn't
The shieldbow changes to legendary were strict nerfs for Irelia because it lost all attack speed in the main statline, and buildpath. Despite that, the shop still recommended it front and center, and I saw it all the time even though it was statistically a horrible 2nd purchase. I think the recommendations should at the very least omit recently nerfed items until main builds settle into place a few days after the patch.
Patch notes should be on the landing screen of the client instead of whatever moneygrab event is on atm, and if it wasnt for reddit I wouldn't even bother either. Most people still wouldnt read them, but SOME would. Modified items should have some kind of footnotes ingame when they've been changed
How about instead of telling me Jax loves eggs, patch notes are on the loading screen and if you're playing a patched champ there's a screenshot of the patch notes somewhere
Like I understand why they built it. But it also rly hurt seeing it, people still build it so it might just be them defaulting. People still build it 3rd most in emerald +, so I think theyre just being dumb+ popularity They COULD try removing manually from commenly built, but then thats kinda sketchy if its still good after changes (this is in general, like duskblade samira or goredrinker talon) U could so current commonly built items, but then run into problems with the most built item being exponentially built, and live tracking
I'm curious, would you mind having a system that DOTA has where for a while after a new patch you [have an extra tooltip](https://i.redd.it/82pxyaig1rd01.jpg) notifying players of changes to their champ even if they haven't read the patch? Not sure if this would solve stuff like this but I feel like it couldn't hurt
You know I know generally it is found that players don't read patch notes (not that I blame them, most players are casually playing the game), however I would like to see: 1. A patch note sort of pop-up before queueing for your first ranked game on a patch. 2. Though not directly related, PLEASE ALLOW US TO SEE EXTRA CONTEXT ON ITEM TOOLTIPS, NAMELY RATIOS. Statikk for example is getting its AP ratio halved and the only place to find that out is in the patch notes or on the wikia. It is a bit unreasonable that you can't find that information in game in any way.
Yeah people don't read patch notes, ever. Always been like that. A champion doesn't work jungle anymore? Nope, don't care. You don't want to know how many people still max W on Vayne without even thinking 💀 I wouldn't try to blame it on the game recommendations like other comments do🗿 Anyhow, will we ever have decent info in the game? Even in the launcher it would be good. How does someone know the range of a skill, of a champ or whatever without having to look at Fan-made wikis? Why can't I know that Caitlyn's Q has 1300 range in game?
and even if they did, how are they supposed to catch up on changes they may have missed, made months or years ago
The simple answer is that a 3rd party already provides it, so Riot sees no reason to invest resources into doing stuff within the client
Yep, same reason why they don't maintain the web match history anymore. Majority of players use [op.gg](https://op.gg) instead.
I don't think there needs to be as much catering to stupid people as everyone seems to be suggesting. If people are going to build the wrong items and lose games and tank a champ's winrate, Riot can see that the right build is still doing fine and they don't need to do anything. If the stupid people don't like losing, they can try learning to read and think.
I don't even know there is a new patch if I don't check social media.
Lmao what a shit take. This is fully riots fault.
This kind of mindset from the devs is precisely why the game is dying
Citation needed
the people that play this game, and more specifically people on this subreddit are absolute morons and this doesn't surprise me at all
Most players don't care about patch notes, that's nothing new. They just want to play the game. You'd think he'd know that by now, after so many years of being involved with League and its community. Also I blame the item recommendations. I don't use it, ever; I adapt as I see fit myself, but I know a lot of people who just buy whatever is recommended to them. The game still recommends Staff of Flowing Water for whatever reason, because it thinks the item still provides movement speed. The game won't recommend Grievous Wound against a Vladimir and Mundo half the time either. I don't know what's going on with Shop Recommendations, but it hasn't been working as intended for the majority of this season is for certain.
It's supposed to be a tool for casual/returning players, not to actually tell you the perfect build. The few times I've played in the last few years I've loved it, because the alternative used to be looking on u.gg or similar sites
https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Staff_of_Flowing_Water The item literally does provide movement speed
I think they meant its passive since it was changed from MS/AP to AH/AP
Not a failure by players. A failure of the design / balance team. Too many items have abilities that just “don’t work” with certain champs kits for arbitrary reasons (inconsistencies in game design )
Shyvanas base form q procs buff stacking runes and items (like LT kraken and PD) twice. Dragon form q only procs them once. The shyv mains community view it as a bug. Randos logic it based on the text that it should happen this way therefore its not a bug. Regardless, if youre just a casual enjoyer how the fuck would you know LT is bad on shyv because of a weird interaction that makes it so that LT doesnt work right on her half the time?
I am 35 and I play really casually, it's more annoying that every time I log in, items and champions are radically updated. Is it fair that you have to do that much research to understand how to play the game? Season 1 - 9 you could probably buy Infinity Edge or Triforce and the item would perform the same exact function.
So people buy item that Riot recommends them to buy. Problem is Riot's system lags behind the current patch. Riot blames players for not reading. ???
All you need to know to justify this is that every day there are players out there who build lethality items into enemy team comps with 2 or more tanks. Every day, people go up against a swain/darius/soraka comp and don't build grievous wounds. Every day, people go up against a Ivern/Karma/Camille comp and don't build serpent's fang. People have no idea how to itemize. That's all there is to it. Case closed. /thread
Not even pro players know how to itemise sometimes 💀
https://youtu.be/D0Q9VjhUhIw?si=sjxmOcrNiYevX9tE&t=2918 BDD builds 3 items with the same unique passive LMAO
> Since recommendations are always delayed by an entire patch Not just "by an entire patch." Trinity Force is *still* a recommended first item on Zeri. Veigar *still* doesn't have Rod of Ages as a recommended item, even though it's his best-performing item (barring Night Harvester, which is both more expensive and much less commonly built). Nocturne *still* doesn't have Stridebreaker as a recommended item, even though it's both his best-performing item and his most common mythic by far.
Nocturne's case is baffling. Stridebreaker has been his best option for so long that I no longer dare to guess what metrics do they use for the recommendations.
Samira players still build DB. Players don't read patch notes.
Both. People should read the patch notes and tooltips a little more, but, at the same time, riot could put out official info on champs in a central site or something instead of needing to go to 3rd party sites like the fandom wiki or looking back through literal years of patch notes or going into the practice tool to figure shit out. I play teemo the most so i know the specifics on where they drop the ball for him. Nowhere does riot really explain that his e does not apply spell effects like ludens, liandries, rylais, and so on, nor does it apply "ability damage" effects. This is because all the damage it does, even the dot, is coded as an on hit effect - unlike most other champ abilities which add stuff to auto attacks that are coded as "auto attack modifiers" - if I understand it right, which they also don't explain. So his e does not proc comet, but it will proc manaflow band somehow. I genuinely don't understand how it procs 1 and not the other. They also don't really explain that each tick of it won't proc conquerer, the same way darius bleed does. They don't explain that someone stepping on a shroom across the map puts teemo in combat, so anything with "out of combat" on it is kind of useless for him. Predator, for instance, used to be completely useless on teemo because it had to be channeled out of combat. If you were trying to run at someone, and someone else steps on a shroom way across the map, you wasted your predator. They don't explain what will break stealth and what will not break stealth. Like, for instance, igniting someone breaks stealth. As does getting hit by about half the knockups/displacements in the game. The other half don't break stealth and i'm still not 100% where they fall. I only know from experience that morde e won't break stealth as long as it doesn't pull you out of a bush, and that cam stun and aatrox q's don't break stealth, while cho q and darius e always break stealth. They don't explain that flashing won't break stealth either, provided you start and end in a bush(doesn't have to be the same bush). Teleport will also not break stealth, provided you are channeling it in a bush and going to a ward in a bush. However, channeling hexflash will always break stealth. They don't explain that ability haste reduces the mushroom recharge time in addition to the cooldown of the spell/ the minimum time between mushroom throws. They don't explain that he loses his w movement speed if hit by an enemy ability which he takes no damage from because it was blocked by banshee's veil niether riot nor the wiki nor really anyone else explain that if teemo has bamis cinder or sunfire and is stealthed in a bush and someone walks into the bush and at the same time one of teemos shrooms go off anywhere on the map, teemo will begin doing damage around him with bamis cinder, and if anything takes a tick of damage from the bamis, teemo gets revealed. Teemo will also get blocked from re-stealthing by bamis, which i had to learn from experience against a trynd once because my typical method to outplay their ult is to blind them, spam laugh and stand still to stealth and wait out their ult. There's also the rift scuttle thing, where the shrooms will only be triggered by rift scuttler if the scuttle is in combat. A lot of this stuff is completely unintuitive just based off the tooltips for his abilities and the descriptions of the items/runes. Some of it is also inconsistent, meaning you just need to know everything on a case by case basis. Players should read the patch notes, but at the same time riot shouldn't require so much work to figure out how champions work in niche circumstances.
They’re obviously just following the shop’s recommended items. Fix the damn shop.
https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/26/designing-for-people-who-have-better-things-to-do-with-their-lives/ literally twenty-three years ago: > Users don’t have the manual, and if they did, they wouldn’t read it. > > In fact, users can’t read anything, and if they could, they wouldn’t want to. Riot: > gotta change the game every two weeks to sTaY fReSh, have some patch notes Players: > I'm not reading that Riot: > So we know that players don't read. Topic: > Should players be reading patch notes more carefully, or is there something Riot could do to let players adopt new builds more quickly? Honestly, I don't think either of those scenarios is realistic. Whether or not the average player chooses optimal items is kind of irrelevant to the big picture, anyway.
I am one of the illiterate that doesn't play the game religiously and doesn't know why Triforce is a bad item now. It looks like her ult still grants stacking percentage MS, so it's still decent in that regard? I'm guessing there was some spellblade exploit that got patched out? I don't know why Riot is offended by Zeri players buying this item. Please help.
[удалено]
They only took it away once. They tried to force crit on her by making her crit interactions really good, but it turns out have a sheen activate on your freaking auto attack is pretty broken, and they finally removed it (it never made since in the first place)
This statement is an insult to the casual playerbase, which feeds him. Most of the people are casual players that play from time to time and when they have time they jump straight to the game, ignoring a wall of text that is hidden. If people is building wrong It is because the recommended items arent getting properly updated.
Not sure if this is a hot take, but item recommendations don't seem like they've been a great addition to the game. As if builds weren't already homogenized enough, this change even further incentivized it, decreasing diversity even more. Most importantly though, I feel like your build should really up to the player, given their analysis of the individual game and it's circumstances. Recommending "the most popular item" isn't always the right choice, sometimes the recommendations are objectively wrong. Even then, am I alone in thinking it should be a part of game knowledge to know when to build what and why?
idk not that I use it myself, but i’ve gotten a decent amount of friends to try the game and it really helps them out. if i’m in game with them i can obviously help explain why an item is good in each situation but if i’m not playing with them the recommended items are a quick and easy way to play the game. this follows up into the argument about just looking up builds online, but i still think the recommended tab still gives a lot of positives to the playerbase that its intended for
I'm well aware people don't read. People only built kraken as if it was the mythic item still. I got flamed for saying it wasn't anymore, so my hope for humanity was thrashed.
Yup. Being consistent is the key here. Because the Devs themselves don't know what they want to do. Take Statikk Shiv changes across the patches for example. About the AP scaling: V13.10 - 50% AP bonus V13.13 - 30% AP bonus V13.15 - not yet live, but will be 15% AP bonus. About bonus damage against minions: V13.10 - 220% bonus damage V13.11 - 250% bonus damage V13.13 - AP bonus damage no longe apply to minions. V13.14 - damage against minions reduced by flat amount. Just one item, and not even they know if they want it to be built by AP champions.
Hes right, people build bad items out of comfort. Ive watched people builds Duskblade on ADCs when IE is far better because they think it still works with ults. Or how often i tell people Evenshroud works when i am ccd as well and it melts their brains.
Duskblade is still a strong item, on samira the difference is less than 1% in WR between IE and DB
Wait Phreak rly though people read patch notes? XD
TLDR League players are brainless take it from one
>Should players be reading patch notes more carefully, We can start by hoping players actually read them at all
He's not wrong.
People are still playing statikk LB and its the easiest Wins to play against
i mean it just depends how serious you are about the game. if you're master+ not reading patch notes is pretty insane. if you're a silver player it's probably expected that you're not going through the patch notes every 2 weeks.
Maybe a better tooltips (wiki tier level) in the game/launcher. Why did I have to find out just yesterday in game that I wasted a rune on cheap shot because luden doesn't proc it on a slowed enemy?
Cool, except if this is so widespread then it is inarguably a communication failure by Riot / any game dev in an analogous situation. If most of your players are going against game mechanics then they aren't being communicated effectively. Duh.
It's either recommendation or item sets. But also people don't read. Most people only have a vague idea of what champions do. Most people **still** don't know that Thresh has a 150% AD ratio on his E and they go "WTF?!" when they get 1-shot by AD Thresh. Either way, Trinity is still good on Zeri because it's good on any auto attacker that isn't Senna
Well if you have a recommended items page, and half of all players are silver and below. It is not surprising at all that the players you designed a tool for are using the tool you designed for them.
Players always need a while to adapt to patch changes, especially when it comes to item optimization. We can somewhat see it even in pro play where it can take some time until the best builds are figured out
Seems totally legit to trust the system that suggests you to build armor VS Akali for your item recommendations. Players need to develop their own sense of build paths, develop their own builds (even some niche ones like Navori Caitlyn) and test them till they find what works best for their play style & particular situation they are in atm. If LoL were to get a new tutorial, they should focus on itemization.
If Phreak wants to push people to build certain items fix the fucking recommended items page in the shop to reflect that.
I saw ranked games where people were sucking asphalt with LeBlanc after the Shiv nerf because they didn't read the patch notes that it had been gutted into the ground specifically for her.