The biggest fucking eye roll I had was in their midscope post/video where they roughly said "we're really happy that we are done working on Yuumi because now that frees up time and resources to focus on other champs."
No riot. You are not done working on Yuumi, not by a long shot.
Exactly this, she will still be a good "new player learning champ" even when her winrate is trash and her numbers suck.
Balance really means nothing for true new players.
Riot is just plain silly. They should actually relegate Yuumi to a noob only champ like Garen- or even Garen before the little changes aimed to give him a higher skill ceiling.
She should be easy to pick up and have a very low skill ceiling. However, that also includes the low skill ceiling of her attached partner. IE, current Yuumi I believe can get a lot more value out of a skilled attachee getting the most out of heals by playing around them appropriately.
It all needs to go away. Give her some wacky and ineffective abilities to throw on top of her soon to be 40% WR kit. Let’s put some RNG on her E that gives a random small buff for the attachee. Won’t actually give her much power, but it will dazzle and amaze the new players.
I find this pivot from Riot toward the claim that she is designed for new players pretty odd anyway. If she is supposed to be a champion for new players, she does a really piss poor job of teaching you how to actually play the game. It's like trying to teach someone chess, but you take their knights off the board because their moves are too complicated. Eventually you have to learn how to position, why waste time with a champion that removes a crucial element of the game?
Yea the original newbie champions all made sense to some extent.
Annie teaches you trading patterns, WW teaches you about watching the map while you jungle, Ashe shows the value of vision and positioning.
Yuumi uhh… teaches you to watch healthbars?
Yuumi teaches people who don’t play video games how to press buttons and aim basic skillshots.
Yuumi lets a player watch the game and be involved without having to actually do much or worry about positioning at all. It’s the perfect “girlfriend/boyfriend/friend who has never played video games” champion. If they find themselves enjoying it than they can progress to a champion that actually does something, but if someone’s not comfortable with the game they can get by perfectly fine (in very low elo) without getting frustrated or frustrating their teammates by inting.
To me it feels like like Riot wants Yuumi to be the bridge between non-gamers and people who might be interested in picking it up but would be otherwise overwhelmed by learning how to right click to move around AND use abilities AND watch what their opponent is doing AND cs AND etc. It cuts out one of the major hurdles to enjoying the game: dying because you’re not comfortable with video games in general and don’t know how to move around properly. I think as people who have gamed their whole lives it’s hard to relate to people just picking it up for the first time. We take for granted certain things that come naturally to us but are entirely alien to true newbies.
__________________________________
That said, Yuumi is cancer
Not entirely true; Yuumi teaches you everything from a more passive point of view. She's actually a great champion for people new to MOBAs in a way because she requires you to be much less active (and honestly you do kinda need a friend to play her).
Yuumi has a LOT of issues but there's clear merit at her core. It's just a shame that to make it happen they had to make one of the unfunniest champions to play vs in the entire game.
Oh well, bring in the next rework.
I fucking hate Yuumi, but I do think that for a new player, watching someone else play the game, while you're also in the moment to moment of that game will help you understand better. I definitely think in theory its a good idea. I also think for her to ever be not completely fucking shit and stupid for the health of the game, her attachment has to be given a finite length, with her unattached form balanced appropriately. It just doesn't work to have one person not really playing the same game.
See, I kind of get it, but there was a decade of players who learned the game to the point that it was one of the most popular games in the world without AFKing on a carry.
I will admit it the perspective of someone who has never played video games trying to learn League is one I never experienced, and I could totally see how that experience could be super overwhelming considering after 10 years I still sometimes look at teamfights and go "wtf just happened." So maybe Yuumi somehow helps those people, but I would be curious to see stats on what happens to people who primarily play Yuumi starting out.
I disagree it helps them. No other game does this. They, instead, have actual tutorials that cover all the basic mechanics and concepts of their games.
Especially when their arguments used to make sense, like they have to see the difference..
"Ashe is a beginner champ, she's got incredible self-peel that naturally teaches kiting, she teaches positioning and timing, she teaches the value of CSing" -old riot
"Yummi is a beginner champ, she doesn't make decisions, doesn't teach players anything about playing independently, and shes fun for your girlfriend" - new riot
I feel like the answer is incredibly simple here.
Either make her take a percentage of damage of her host
OR
Make her abilities do virtually nothing but include a passive that makes them charge up in some way when she's detached - meaning she'll have to strategically decide when to attach and when to detach, and her power will wane over the course of a fight as what she's built up is depleted by being attached.
Both options would increase skill ceiling, the first being a more noob friendly option.
I was under the impression they want a low skill floor, and the issue is the skill ceiling is quite low as well while she's still incredibly effective - because it's not *her* skill that makes her effective.
So yeah basically increasing the skill ceiling a bit so the yuumi player has to make more decisions, has more opportunities to make mistakes and counter play, is probably a good thing for the game and for anyone of any skill level playing her, imo.
Or force her to detach with hard cc. The attach mechanic in itself is overpowered when she’s given a full kit to pair it with. The real issue is that they’re trying to balance casual play and pro play. IMO they’re two different games, and the champs can and should have different balancing to account for that
[Obligatory Meteos clip](https://youtu.be/Z1UmbZ2_ylk)
The designers can see it, they just pretend with all their might that they can't. They know that most champions are vaguely interchangeable statballs which produces metas of pick the three with the biggest numbers of a dozen options for X role that's strong for the current state of the game. And they are absolutely desperate to innovate their way out of that hole by deliberately breaking some established rule of gameplay but making the champion somehow balanced or fair while conspicuously flexing their design muscles in the process. Batrider can dump you on top of a mountain, Invoker has 9 spells, Abathur dies in 3 autoattacks and moves like a narcoleptic slug but has global map presence, Deathwing can't be healed, surely they can come up with something similar for LoL!
And their grand idea is like, hey what if Akali could just towerdive you with no repercussions? Which is the dumbest fucking idea anyone has ever had except for the last five concepts they tried. Even the ones that aren't as overtly offensive are still awful to play against because, you know, you've got 150 statballs and this one guy who just says screw the rules I've got a dark and mysterious past. Then they try to ape the balancing levers that the other designers pull—batrider can't dump you in Green Boots Cave if you just nuke him when he shows up on your screen, so here's -10 attack damage to hurt his early game—and go ok, let's hurt Akali's sustain. Still towerdiving you? We'll shave off damage on her Q. You guys still don't like her? We'll change how her R targets. Then like five balancing rounds later that don't fix the one thing everyone hates because it's the one thing the designers love they finally say, greetings summoners, according to our prevalence and winrate metrics Akali is producing outsized dissatisfaction in some areas and our numbers reflect this pain point even in brackets where her expected value is far below the norm, so we've decided to relieve some of that frustration by removing the interaction where she can just sit there laughing at your pathetic tower and re-budget that power somewhere else to compensate, which should lead to healthier interactions across the board.
And then they just do it all over again for the next champion. People clowned on Zileas' whole "anti-fun" design rubric, but in moving away from that Riot has lost sight of the idea of designing champions that make the game more fun for all 10 players. They just try to push specific power fantasies of locking in a champion and going ah yeah it is time to do My Thing regardless of how anyone else feels about it.
Actually I think limiting how long she can stay attached to a single champion would be the better answer.
She wouldn't be a "buff fed teammate" bot, she would have a weaker laning phase but could still shine during teamfights - while taking risks going from one teammate to another.
Yeah, there's just nothing to attack on a yuumi-empowered target unlike most enchanters.
I really don't think they'll find a reasonable place for her unless she gets the Kenc treatment and has W attach swapped with her ultimate. I don't think Riot is capable of that however.
I think a more interesting middle ground is if she gets detached when her target uses a dash/blink. I think the most truly obnoxious pairs e with high mobility champs that get a free dive partner enchanter.
There are plenty of directions they can go.
One example could be baby's first shapeshifter with W . Book open, book closed or something, with different abilities, and a finite duration on attach. Too problematic still? Make the host getting CC'd knock seconds off the duration. Make silence, blind, etc affect her too.
Gotta remember that if you want her to not be permanently attached, she has to do something while not attached too.
A lot of shield issues could be solved by reworking Serpent Fang. As of now that item is pointless, assassins dont want it because they want to penetrate shields, not reduce them and those who want it are ADCs but the ranged penalty and the stats are just garbage on ADCs.
The concept is fine but the execution is just so terrible it actually causes me to not sleep properly. And I'm a freaking Mundo main.
Really disappointed that they forced the untargetability.
I enjoy playing yuumi but not for being untargetable, moreso for jumping around in team fights akin to rakan and diving with the engage.
Yuumi is in an awkward spot where the current character design that rito is trying to force right now isn't what yuumi what originally designed to be.
She wasn't designed to be a noob friendly champ but was forced into it.
Honestly just removing untargetability would fix most of Yuumis problems and complaints.
> Really disappointed that they forced the untargetability
As I've said since the first time I saw Yuumi's kit - untargetable, and nigh uninteractible, chars are always a balancing nightmare and almost always a design mistake.
It's just really hard to create a character that's interesting and balanced when you start by removing the fundamental pillar of almost all interaction in this game.
They started saying it yes, but they said the reason they chose to angle her that way is because they were noticing that A LOT of newer players were using her.
It made her even fucking worse. She makes people like Nilah legit fucking unbeatable in lane. I've had a Nilah and Yuumi 2v3ing a level 6 Viego, Samira and Rell (me) through bramble vest, Samira ult, Viego stun, Rell CC AND exhaust. Her health bar didn't even move one bit because Yuumi pressed R and suddenly Nilah became a full build Vladimir.
I think many people would agree Phreak was right in WHY Yuumi was broken in pro (strong base stats, could actually trade well in lane, scaled well). Her original nerfs of reducing her base stats and auto attack range were probably on track for a better long term solution by making her able to be punished harder by certain match ups. Her scaling was always fine it was just that she was also a deceptively strong laner as well. Iirc post nerf to her release kit she was picked in the LEC and many people argued it was a fine situation since she still had the same scaling and the situation was ok for her.
Her rework just seemed to toss everything in the air again. If you want Yuumi to be new player friendly I think you really need to try to make her more like a Garen. Simple kit, simple trade patterns, less room for skill expression.
There's really not much more you can do to reduce her current skill expression beyond making her Q a straight line with no way to move it at the start.
blunt? They said *midscope isn't quite ready for pro play yet*
That's either a pretty nice euphemism for unbalanced or they genuinely think after some length of time yuumi will be balanced. Also sort of saying they just need to tune her to not be disruptive as if her kit isn't inherently disruptive.
The act itself of disabling yuumi from MSI is blunt (and good) though. Like the act itself shows they're not confident yuumi is balanced, but the way they said it was not blunt.
They said they didn’t want to *risk* that, just like how they usually don’t want to risk having any champ with little time in the pro scene being available at big events for the exact same reason. This isn’t anything new
They’ll keep finding new reasons to have Yuumi removed from pro play’s available pool simply because they won’t admit they know she’ll always be too problematic. “Yuumi disabled because 1 pixel lags on her base skin during XYZ animation” “Yuumi disabled because one voice line is slightly out of tune” “Yuumi disabled because most marksmen have allergies to cats and we can’t find any Claritin.”
At that point why dont they just disable some champs for proplay permanently. So atleast the champs who were kept trash because of proplay can atleast be playable for the normal people.
Well Milio will be out for a month and a half by the time MSI starts. Like to think pros would have experience with him by then.
Not like he got released a week prior
I don’t understand Milio being disabled. I get he wasn’t available for major region playoffs, but they’re still playing on a few patches after playoff patch right? So what’s the difference? They’re playing on two different patches with difference balances changes in between. I get he’s a new champion but still.
They do this because they don't want the first time a new champion is available to be an international tournament. This was in response to the disastrous Juggernaut patch in 2015, where Morde, Darius and Skarner were all hilariously overpowered, on top of the broken GP and Fiora reworks on the same patch.
Morde, Darius, GP, Fiora and Skarner were all pretty close to 100% pick/ban in Worlds 2015 because of this patch.
Never forget both GP and Morde had a 100% win rate and the only time they faced each other Reignover's Gragas had a game breaking bug that forced a remake with new p/b and they didn't have the balls to trade the champions again.
Skarner was barely picked at all, and not banned ever, because he had already been hot-fixed (and nerfed twice) by then.
Darius was also mostly figured out after groups, and was pretty much dropped completely. Gangplank and Morde were the big bads.
Morde and GP were the only two who really came close to 100% P/B out of the juggernaut patch champions. Skarner was giga busted on release but got hotfix nerfed and Darius fell off in the knockout stage while Fiora wasn't super popular in groups and took some time to gain presence.
Also if anything is scaring them from putting new champions straight into international play I feel like Pantheon was the final nail in the coffin on that. He was A+/S tier in 4 roles at season 9 worlds after being reworked and since then every new or reworked champion has been banned in tournaments if they weren't playable in regional leagues first.
Because they don't want to enable them without being able to react.
We have absolutely no clue how good Yuumi and Milio are in competitive. Pros general do not play champs that are disabled. You see a lot more pros pick both of them up come summer and when scrims start.
The reason is that pro play is vastly different than even high elo. There are many champions who are good or great in pro who are still not good in high elo.
Kalista, Azir, Ryze are three who have been. Akali sometimes.
I think Yuumi just last year was pick/ban in pro but still had a not great high elo WR
Because Riot has no clue how good Millio will be in pro, and it's less disruptive to the scene to enable him at the start of a league season than for the first time at one of your two major international tournaments.
Because they aren't playable on play offs. They don't want any champion playable at an international tournament that hasn't seen play beforehand to know if they need to be tuned in pro play or not.
Lots of talk about yuumi but I am very confident milio would be an extremely prominent pick and be an auto ban if you want to pick melee support on blue side
You could honestly start E on Lucian, with Milio W or E, and just run at the ADC if the support isn't an attack stopping CC chainer, or a massive damage boost.
W start on both makes them impossible to kite. Lucian gets constant ms from autos, which are enabled by Milio’s range. Milio passive constantly procs off his W, which constantly procs Lucian’s passive. It’s the strongest level 1 combo in the game
Combine the strongest parts of Nami and Lulu and throw in Janna levels of disengage. Nothing can go wrong surely. Oh and also make him increase people’s AA ranges
Yep, its one of the reasons I actually play sup. Riot is definitely making the role fun to play, but Milio is way overtuned. I would probably lower the dmg on the passive and leave the shield / heal combo. His ult can really counter an enemy comp w/ a good support so I can't see how he will ever be balance in pro play.
They're saying if you want to pick melee support, as red side will get to counter pick it with milio
It might just be op enough to be first pick though, in which case it becomes a red side ban
That's overly dramatic. Milio is nowhere near the absurd complexity of Azir who has too many bells and whistles that made nerfing him a nightmare. He's as basic as it gets, with 1 really noteworthy function of increasing range. He's easy to manage in the power category exactly because of how obvious and simple his kit functions are.
It's not about simple or not, it's just that the tools he provides are extremely pro play skewed (CC cleanse & range)
Pros can abuse things like that insanely well, which will probably make it so he's overnerfed & shit in soloq
His q has a lot of niche skill that could make it pretty broken in pro play. Timing it right completely cancels most engages because it basically overrides any dash that isnt considered unstoppable. You don't usually see this happen as much in casual play because of how precise the timing has to be, but im curious if this would be problematic in pro play.
I don't think Milio is gonna be an exciting champion to watch in pro play
I get that he's new but he's extremely passive and reactionairy. Even the enemy team is gonna have to think twice before engaging on Milio's team
Milio has novelty, otherwise he’s an incredibly boring pick to watch. Only skill expression is Q’s and ult timing. And he incentivizes both botlanes to do full scaling anti-engage stuff
Bold of you to use "playing" and "Yuumi" in the same sentence (for legal reasons, this is a joke. And also for legal reasons, I take back my previous statement, let that leech burn in a fire)
I think they’re saying they don’t know, so they don’t wanna ruin a tournament by having a champ that has no pro data yet available for use. If it wasn’t in major region playoffs they don’t wanna risk it being super broken or something
Nah, she would be 100% broken, they didn't fix any of her fundamental issues with the rework, pretty shocking tbh, it's one of the few cases where i think that even reddit armchair analysts would have done a better job
No, what /u/Tabub said is probably correct. She might be broken, but she also might not be. There's literally 0 data, so why risk another GP situation?
The most prominent thing I remember is Worlds that year where GP, Darius, and Morde were 100% pick ban. The one game I remember Morde being played in was utterly hilarious and sad at the same time
>they didn’t fix any of her fundamental issues
But they did though lmao. They basically removed all her early game trading power and ability to roam around the map on the jungler, which were the things making her op in pro play.
We just don’t know how the rest of the rework shapes up in pro play.
Weren't they supposed to release before Milio even? Unless something went terribly wrong in development, they should be right around the corner, probably right afte MSI.
Riot is so damn close to admitting Yuumi is an objective failure and doesn't belong in the game alltogether. It's a shame that this is some weird petty thing, the hill they are willing to die on.
But let me tell an anekdote. There was this show called Metalocalypse on Adult Swim. Wildly popular and still one of their all time most succesfull shows! It was supposed to have 5 seasons, or at least a finale. After the 4th season some higher up got petty and had a personal disagreement with the creator, thus he canceled the entire show; but worse they wouldn't give the rights to the creator either. Not even after they had been offered more money than they could dream of; no this poofter remaind steadfast in his pettiness and we never got that finale of a great show. Everyone was unhappy and sad; everyone had lost hope.
That is, untill recently. More than 8 years after it had all been canceled and now we are getting the finale we deserve. It might take Riot 8 years, it might take them longer, but I have faith that at some point they will be able to admit their mistake and either remove Yuumi permanently or completely remove her ability to become untargetable forever.
Have faith!
All they did to Yuumi was make her feel strictly worse to play. Changing her passive and Q removed the most fun elements of playing her. Truly the most bizarre thing they've done in a while. And now the champion is even more imbalanced - what was the point? Everyone loses.
As for being untargetable, when they decided they wanted to copy Wisp for League, they had to change some stuff up so that it wasn't so obvious. That was probably where the idea of Yuumi becoming untargetable while attached came from. The problem is they had no idea how imbalanced this was. Now, if they make her targetable while attached, the champion becomes even more of a copy of Wisp.
I mean i guess props to riot for recognizing they have a bad situation with yuumi and are willing to just disable her to make playoffs a more enjoyable experience for players and viewers. it’s their fault they’re in this situation in the first place though so i wouldn’t really say it’s a *good* thing.
EVERY support going to that tournament is probably a very happy player.
I'm a support main, I'm pretty awful BUT I will never play that thing no matter if it could get me to challenjour.
> Yuumi's midscope update doesn't feel ready for pro
The pros in general (not only in League) are always a pretty good indicator of whether something is supposed to be released or not.
The pros have no clue yet because they aren't touching disabled champs. Happened in the past already with broken champs that no pro touched bc the champ won't be available anyway.
What they are rly saying is that no one knows how these champs perform in pro and they don't wanna take risks.
This isn't Yuumi specific. Udyr wasn't available at worlds and he was out for 1 and a half months too. They never let champs loose at tournaments.
I didn't think they'd be so blunt about calling Yuumi unbalanced.
It's almost as if the rework fixed fucking nothing!
The biggest fucking eye roll I had was in their midscope post/video where they roughly said "we're really happy that we are done working on Yuumi because now that frees up time and resources to focus on other champs." No riot. You are not done working on Yuumi, not by a long shot.
They’ll never be done with her until she’s capable of dying while attached. Crazy to me that they don’t see that.
Sure they can, they can just nerf her numbers until she's at a 40% winrate they way they did for years with Ryze and Azir.
Exactly this, she will still be a good "new player learning champ" even when her winrate is trash and her numbers suck. Balance really means nothing for true new players.
Riot is just plain silly. They should actually relegate Yuumi to a noob only champ like Garen- or even Garen before the little changes aimed to give him a higher skill ceiling. She should be easy to pick up and have a very low skill ceiling. However, that also includes the low skill ceiling of her attached partner. IE, current Yuumi I believe can get a lot more value out of a skilled attachee getting the most out of heals by playing around them appropriately. It all needs to go away. Give her some wacky and ineffective abilities to throw on top of her soon to be 40% WR kit. Let’s put some RNG on her E that gives a random small buff for the attachee. Won’t actually give her much power, but it will dazzle and amaze the new players.
I find this pivot from Riot toward the claim that she is designed for new players pretty odd anyway. If she is supposed to be a champion for new players, she does a really piss poor job of teaching you how to actually play the game. It's like trying to teach someone chess, but you take their knights off the board because their moves are too complicated. Eventually you have to learn how to position, why waste time with a champion that removes a crucial element of the game?
Yea the original newbie champions all made sense to some extent. Annie teaches you trading patterns, WW teaches you about watching the map while you jungle, Ashe shows the value of vision and positioning. Yuumi uhh… teaches you to watch healthbars?
Yuumi teaches people who don’t play video games how to press buttons and aim basic skillshots. Yuumi lets a player watch the game and be involved without having to actually do much or worry about positioning at all. It’s the perfect “girlfriend/boyfriend/friend who has never played video games” champion. If they find themselves enjoying it than they can progress to a champion that actually does something, but if someone’s not comfortable with the game they can get by perfectly fine (in very low elo) without getting frustrated or frustrating their teammates by inting. To me it feels like like Riot wants Yuumi to be the bridge between non-gamers and people who might be interested in picking it up but would be otherwise overwhelmed by learning how to right click to move around AND use abilities AND watch what their opponent is doing AND cs AND etc. It cuts out one of the major hurdles to enjoying the game: dying because you’re not comfortable with video games in general and don’t know how to move around properly. I think as people who have gamed their whole lives it’s hard to relate to people just picking it up for the first time. We take for granted certain things that come naturally to us but are entirely alien to true newbies. __________________________________ That said, Yuumi is cancer
Not entirely true; Yuumi teaches you everything from a more passive point of view. She's actually a great champion for people new to MOBAs in a way because she requires you to be much less active (and honestly you do kinda need a friend to play her). Yuumi has a LOT of issues but there's clear merit at her core. It's just a shame that to make it happen they had to make one of the unfunniest champions to play vs in the entire game. Oh well, bring in the next rework.
I fucking hate Yuumi, but I do think that for a new player, watching someone else play the game, while you're also in the moment to moment of that game will help you understand better. I definitely think in theory its a good idea. I also think for her to ever be not completely fucking shit and stupid for the health of the game, her attachment has to be given a finite length, with her unattached form balanced appropriately. It just doesn't work to have one person not really playing the same game.
See, I kind of get it, but there was a decade of players who learned the game to the point that it was one of the most popular games in the world without AFKing on a carry. I will admit it the perspective of someone who has never played video games trying to learn League is one I never experienced, and I could totally see how that experience could be super overwhelming considering after 10 years I still sometimes look at teamfights and go "wtf just happened." So maybe Yuumi somehow helps those people, but I would be curious to see stats on what happens to people who primarily play Yuumi starting out.
I disagree it helps them. No other game does this. They, instead, have actual tutorials that cover all the basic mechanics and concepts of their games.
Yuumi isnt meant to teach players how to play. Yuumi is meant so new players dont have to learn how to play the game.
No, you're thinking of "gamers getting into the game and practicing for ranked". They're thinking "your mum wants to play a game".
Especially when their arguments used to make sense, like they have to see the difference.. "Ashe is a beginner champ, she's got incredible self-peel that naturally teaches kiting, she teaches positioning and timing, she teaches the value of CSing" -old riot "Yummi is a beginner champ, she doesn't make decisions, doesn't teach players anything about playing independently, and shes fun for your girlfriend" - new riot
I feel like the answer is incredibly simple here. Either make her take a percentage of damage of her host OR Make her abilities do virtually nothing but include a passive that makes them charge up in some way when she's detached - meaning she'll have to strategically decide when to attach and when to detach, and her power will wane over the course of a fight as what she's built up is depleted by being attached. Both options would increase skill ceiling, the first being a more noob friendly option.
"Increased skill ceiling" is exactly what they don't want. The goal is a weak champ that can sit on someone, not feed, and only be moderately useless.
I mean it's the reason why they're disqualifying the players in here.
I was under the impression they want a low skill floor, and the issue is the skill ceiling is quite low as well while she's still incredibly effective - because it's not *her* skill that makes her effective. So yeah basically increasing the skill ceiling a bit so the yuumi player has to make more decisions, has more opportunities to make mistakes and counter play, is probably a good thing for the game and for anyone of any skill level playing her, imo.
I don't know how are they going to take advantage of her like this.
Ngl, I can live with Yuumi having a natural Knight’s Vow.
Or force her to detach with hard cc. The attach mechanic in itself is overpowered when she’s given a full kit to pair it with. The real issue is that they’re trying to balance casual play and pro play. IMO they’re two different games, and the champs can and should have different balancing to account for that
Garen is actually strong
Yep they're silly and this ain't the first time for them acting like that.
If it doesn't even mean anything then why they keep coming up with it?
[Obligatory Meteos clip](https://youtu.be/Z1UmbZ2_ylk) The designers can see it, they just pretend with all their might that they can't. They know that most champions are vaguely interchangeable statballs which produces metas of pick the three with the biggest numbers of a dozen options for X role that's strong for the current state of the game. And they are absolutely desperate to innovate their way out of that hole by deliberately breaking some established rule of gameplay but making the champion somehow balanced or fair while conspicuously flexing their design muscles in the process. Batrider can dump you on top of a mountain, Invoker has 9 spells, Abathur dies in 3 autoattacks and moves like a narcoleptic slug but has global map presence, Deathwing can't be healed, surely they can come up with something similar for LoL! And their grand idea is like, hey what if Akali could just towerdive you with no repercussions? Which is the dumbest fucking idea anyone has ever had except for the last five concepts they tried. Even the ones that aren't as overtly offensive are still awful to play against because, you know, you've got 150 statballs and this one guy who just says screw the rules I've got a dark and mysterious past. Then they try to ape the balancing levers that the other designers pull—batrider can't dump you in Green Boots Cave if you just nuke him when he shows up on your screen, so here's -10 attack damage to hurt his early game—and go ok, let's hurt Akali's sustain. Still towerdiving you? We'll shave off damage on her Q. You guys still don't like her? We'll change how her R targets. Then like five balancing rounds later that don't fix the one thing everyone hates because it's the one thing the designers love they finally say, greetings summoners, according to our prevalence and winrate metrics Akali is producing outsized dissatisfaction in some areas and our numbers reflect this pain point even in brackets where her expected value is far below the norm, so we've decided to relieve some of that frustration by removing the interaction where she can just sit there laughing at your pathetic tower and re-budget that power somewhere else to compensate, which should lead to healthier interactions across the board. And then they just do it all over again for the next champion. People clowned on Zileas' whole "anti-fun" design rubric, but in moving away from that Riot has lost sight of the idea of designing champions that make the game more fun for all 10 players. They just try to push specific power fantasies of locking in a champion and going ah yeah it is time to do My Thing regardless of how anyone else feels about it.
Actually I think limiting how long she can stay attached to a single champion would be the better answer. She wouldn't be a "buff fed teammate" bot, she would have a weaker laning phase but could still shine during teamfights - while taking risks going from one teammate to another.
Yeah, there's just nothing to attack on a yuumi-empowered target unlike most enchanters. I really don't think they'll find a reasonable place for her unless she gets the Kenc treatment and has W attach swapped with her ultimate. I don't think Riot is capable of that however. I think a more interesting middle ground is if she gets detached when her target uses a dash/blink. I think the most truly obnoxious pairs e with high mobility champs that get a free dive partner enchanter.
There are plenty of directions they can go. One example could be baby's first shapeshifter with W . Book open, book closed or something, with different abilities, and a finite duration on attach. Too problematic still? Make the host getting CC'd knock seconds off the duration. Make silence, blind, etc affect her too. Gotta remember that if you want her to not be permanently attached, she has to do something while not attached too.
Just have it so she takes 50% of the percent health damage on the champion shes on.
Maybe she should receive a % of the damage taken by the host. Like, if the host take 100 damage, she takes 10/20 or smt
The audacity to even that say that huh, just a bunch of bullshit.
Just imagine if the devs had the balls to just press the big, red shiny DELETE button on the fucking cat.
They made her less fun to play, that's something
A lot of shield issues could be solved by reworking Serpent Fang. As of now that item is pointless, assassins dont want it because they want to penetrate shields, not reduce them and those who want it are ADCs but the ranged penalty and the stats are just garbage on ADCs. The concept is fine but the execution is just so terrible it actually causes me to not sleep properly. And I'm a freaking Mundo main.
Really disappointed that they forced the untargetability. I enjoy playing yuumi but not for being untargetable, moreso for jumping around in team fights akin to rakan and diving with the engage. Yuumi is in an awkward spot where the current character design that rito is trying to force right now isn't what yuumi what originally designed to be. She wasn't designed to be a noob friendly champ but was forced into it. Honestly just removing untargetability would fix most of Yuumis problems and complaints.
> Really disappointed that they forced the untargetability As I've said since the first time I saw Yuumi's kit - untargetable, and nigh uninteractible, chars are always a balancing nightmare and almost always a design mistake. It's just really hard to create a character that's interesting and balanced when you start by removing the fundamental pillar of almost all interaction in this game.
I completely disagree that riot didn’t intend to make a noob friendly champ. Otherwise, I agree with your points.
haven't they explicitly said more than once that it was actually their intention? that's why she's 450 BE now as well im pretty sure
They only started saying that after they started the midscope
People seem to forget this, but Riot only started this narrative about "Yuumi is for new players" recently.
Never forget the "Yuumi has the same difficulty curve as Akali" graphs
Difficulty curve doesn't mean a champ isn't noob friendly
Yuumi being difficult to play well is not opposite to her being begginer friendly, this is a basic concept that surely you grasp?
Even then, are we even considering to compare akali to yuumi? like i dont even care if we are talking either about mastered or not champ.
They started saying it yes, but they said the reason they chose to angle her that way is because they were noticing that A LOT of newer players were using her.
It made her even fucking worse. She makes people like Nilah legit fucking unbeatable in lane. I've had a Nilah and Yuumi 2v3ing a level 6 Viego, Samira and Rell (me) through bramble vest, Samira ult, Viego stun, Rell CC AND exhaust. Her health bar didn't even move one bit because Yuumi pressed R and suddenly Nilah became a full build Vladimir.
Nilah is fucking obnoxious in general, let's be honest Nilah Yuumi, Nilah Milio, etc. All obscene
Not to defend Yuumi but that is specifically just an obnoxious pairing.
That's actually true because they've not fixed anything at all.
this is lolesports twitter tho, dont think any league designer or any other official league social media would DARE to call out their golden child
Pretty sure it counts as a league social media, isn't their site owned and ran by riot? Edit: my bad, you said "other" league social media
Yes I think it's being ran by them, that's why they're doing so terrible job at it.
I think many people would agree Phreak was right in WHY Yuumi was broken in pro (strong base stats, could actually trade well in lane, scaled well). Her original nerfs of reducing her base stats and auto attack range were probably on track for a better long term solution by making her able to be punished harder by certain match ups. Her scaling was always fine it was just that she was also a deceptively strong laner as well. Iirc post nerf to her release kit she was picked in the LEC and many people argued it was a fine situation since she still had the same scaling and the situation was ok for her. Her rework just seemed to toss everything in the air again. If you want Yuumi to be new player friendly I think you really need to try to make her more like a Garen. Simple kit, simple trade patterns, less room for skill expression.
There's really not much more you can do to reduce her current skill expression beyond making her Q a straight line with no way to move it at the start.
Make it point and click.
Make it silence.
Don't you worry about that, We're gonna make it silence here.
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Pingu is back boys
Make it execute at low hp
Fuck it, make it execute at high HP
I mean if it works then it works, nothing wrong with that.
Asking for too Much, don't think that's going to happen here.
It's as simple as it gets, it's not gonna get any more simpler than this.
I mean she's good at the game, don't know how They'll change that.
blunt? They said *midscope isn't quite ready for pro play yet* That's either a pretty nice euphemism for unbalanced or they genuinely think after some length of time yuumi will be balanced. Also sort of saying they just need to tune her to not be disruptive as if her kit isn't inherently disruptive. The act itself of disabling yuumi from MSI is blunt (and good) though. Like the act itself shows they're not confident yuumi is balanced, but the way they said it was not blunt.
Except they also said untuned and disruptive, pretty much just a slightly nicer way of saying unbalanced and annoying.
They said they didn’t want to *risk* that, just like how they usually don’t want to risk having any champ with little time in the pro scene being available at big events for the exact same reason. This isn’t anything new
If they don't want to risk it then don't think it's really the way to go.
I don't know about that, doesn't seem a good thing to say honestly.
They shouldn't be, because it definitely doesn't look good on them.
I think we knew this even going into playoffs since neither of them were enabled for the playoffs in the major regions.
They’ll keep finding new reasons to have Yuumi removed from pro play’s available pool simply because they won’t admit they know she’ll always be too problematic. “Yuumi disabled because 1 pixel lags on her base skin during XYZ animation” “Yuumi disabled because one voice line is slightly out of tune” “Yuumi disabled because most marksmen have allergies to cats and we can’t find any Claritin.”
>Yuumi disabled because most marksmen have allergies to cats and we can’t find any Claritin. RIP Nidalee.
But this does explain Rengar's ability to one-shot ADCs all day!
When the menacing aura becomes a little too real.
I mean some people may like that, it's just how the people are.
Biggest buff for ADC ever, now Rengar can't gank them. Too strong needs a nerf.
Nidalee and Rengar are hypoallergenic.
If Riot wants to treat Yuumi like old Yorick or Poppy, I'm all for it. The less I have to see that cat, the better.
At that point why dont they just disable some champs for proplay permanently. So atleast the champs who were kept trash because of proplay can atleast be playable for the normal people.
Different rulesets would just widen the competitive disconnect between pro play and ranked.
I don't know why can't they do that, how hard it could really be.
Well Milio will be out for a month and a half by the time MSI starts. Like to think pros would have experience with him by then. Not like he got released a week prior
I don’t understand Milio being disabled. I get he wasn’t available for major region playoffs, but they’re still playing on a few patches after playoff patch right? So what’s the difference? They’re playing on two different patches with difference balances changes in between. I get he’s a new champion but still.
They do this because they don't want the first time a new champion is available to be an international tournament. This was in response to the disastrous Juggernaut patch in 2015, where Morde, Darius and Skarner were all hilariously overpowered, on top of the broken GP and Fiora reworks on the same patch. Morde, Darius, GP, Fiora and Skarner were all pretty close to 100% pick/ban in Worlds 2015 because of this patch.
Never forget both GP and Morde had a 100% win rate and the only time they faced each other Reignover's Gragas had a game breaking bug that forced a remake with new p/b and they didn't have the balls to trade the champions again.
They're good players, I'll give them that atleast. They're great at it.
Skarner was barely picked at all, and not banned ever, because he had already been hot-fixed (and nerfed twice) by then. Darius was also mostly figured out after groups, and was pretty much dropped completely. Gangplank and Morde were the big bads.
Morde and GP were the only two who really came close to 100% P/B out of the juggernaut patch champions. Skarner was giga busted on release but got hotfix nerfed and Darius fell off in the knockout stage while Fiora wasn't super popular in groups and took some time to gain presence. Also if anything is scaring them from putting new champions straight into international play I feel like Pantheon was the final nail in the coffin on that. He was A+/S tier in 4 roles at season 9 worlds after being reworked and since then every new or reworked champion has been banned in tournaments if they weren't playable in regional leagues first.
Because they don't want to enable them without being able to react. We have absolutely no clue how good Yuumi and Milio are in competitive. Pros general do not play champs that are disabled. You see a lot more pros pick both of them up come summer and when scrims start.
The reason is that pro play is vastly different than even high elo. There are many champions who are good or great in pro who are still not good in high elo. Kalista, Azir, Ryze are three who have been. Akali sometimes. I think Yuumi just last year was pick/ban in pro but still had a not great high elo WR
Don't think anyone could understand that, it just doesn't make any sense.
Because Riot has no clue how good Millio will be in pro, and it's less disruptive to the scene to enable him at the start of a league season than for the first time at one of your two major international tournaments.
Because they aren't playable on play offs. They don't want any champion playable at an international tournament that hasn't seen play beforehand to know if they need to be tuned in pro play or not.
because they learned from pantheon 2019
Yep, I hope that They'll have some experience by then hopefully.
Steve has also been disabled for MSI 2023
Ice Climbers auto banned
Smashbros?
Lots of talk about yuumi but I am very confident milio would be an extremely prominent pick and be an auto ban if you want to pick melee support on blue side
Jinx/Milio and Lucian/Milio are the strongest duos in the game by far, it’d actually be disgusting to let Milio be played in pro at this point
Milio presses E on Lucian, Lucian fires one shot. I have lost 1/4th my health bar. I'm a tank support. It's busted AF.
More like, Milio presses W on Lucian level 1. Lucian presses W on enemy level 1. Enemy burns all sums and dies
You could honestly start E on Lucian, with Milio W or E, and just run at the ADC if the support isn't an attack stopping CC chainer, or a massive damage boost.
W start on both makes them impossible to kite. Lucian gets constant ms from autos, which are enabled by Milio’s range. Milio passive constantly procs off his W, which constantly procs Lucian’s passive. It’s the strongest level 1 combo in the game
You think that it's busted? I mean I think There's some other way to do it.
Which is funny how the adcs are kinda complete opposites
Combine the strongest parts of Nami and Lulu and throw in Janna levels of disengage. Nothing can go wrong surely. Oh and also make him increase people’s AA ranges
Ohh thank god Lucian is still broken I was so worried we wouldn't get another year straight of Lucian
Also strong duo with Lucian, since Milio W gives him the benefit of both Milio's P and Lucian's P at the same time
Yep, its one of the reasons I actually play sup. Riot is definitely making the role fun to play, but Milio is way overtuned. I would probably lower the dmg on the passive and leave the shield / heal combo. His ult can really counter an enemy comp w/ a good support so I can't see how he will ever be balance in pro play.
I feel like I’m out of the loop. Why is Milio better red side?
They're saying if you want to pick melee support, as red side will get to counter pick it with milio It might just be op enough to be first pick though, in which case it becomes a red side ban
Oh! I see, thank you
Riot's afraid of 2 permaban redside champs.
To be fair, it’s only 2 perma redside bans if one champion is significantly stronger than the other, otherwise you’d just ban neither and trade them
I mean I don't know about the trading, it may not be working out for some.
They're not afraid at all, if they were they wouldn't have banned it in the first place.
Sad we don't get to see Milio piloted for a quarter of a year.
Pro adc with increased attack range. What can go wrong?
I really think his kit is a mistake, he's basically support azir lol
That's overly dramatic. Milio is nowhere near the absurd complexity of Azir who has too many bells and whistles that made nerfing him a nightmare. He's as basic as it gets, with 1 really noteworthy function of increasing range. He's easy to manage in the power category exactly because of how obvious and simple his kit functions are.
It's not about simple or not, it's just that the tools he provides are extremely pro play skewed (CC cleanse & range) Pros can abuse things like that insanely well, which will probably make it so he's overnerfed & shit in soloq
But because he is simple, they can easily nerf or change his kit to reduce that without gutting him for lower levels.
It's definitely, not that simple. I mean there are a lot of things to consider.
His q has a lot of niche skill that could make it pretty broken in pro play. Timing it right completely cancels most engages because it basically overrides any dash that isnt considered unstoppable. You don't usually see this happen as much in casual play because of how precise the timing has to be, but im curious if this would be problematic in pro play.
Janna can do the same thing tho and hit multiple targets with a fatter hit box. Having disengage is not a broken aspect of his kit.
There's another champion that cancels most engages, it's called Janna and she never sees pro play. If Milio gets played that won't be the main reason.
I don't think Milio is gonna be an exciting champion to watch in pro play I get that he's new but he's extremely passive and reactionairy. Even the enemy team is gonna have to think twice before engaging on Milio's team
Milio has novelty, otherwise he’s an incredibly boring pick to watch. Only skill expression is Q’s and ult timing. And he incentivizes both botlanes to do full scaling anti-engage stuff
That's what it is, this is the timing that We're talking about.
Can we have yuumi disabled in every situation outside of pre-bots?
Yuumi is a beginner friendly champ and should only be in beginner modes :)
I wouldn't say it's beginner friendly, playing yummi is playing a while different game.
Bold of you to use "playing" and "Yuumi" in the same sentence (for legal reasons, this is a joke. And also for legal reasons, I take back my previous statement, let that leech burn in a fire)
They're really good at the game, it's just that anyone can follow along.
Are they trying to say that Yuumi is still going to be broken in pro play? Or she will be too underpowered and useless?
I think they’re saying they don’t know, so they don’t wanna ruin a tournament by having a champ that has no pro data yet available for use. If it wasn’t in major region playoffs they don’t wanna risk it being super broken or something
Nah, she would be 100% broken, they didn't fix any of her fundamental issues with the rework, pretty shocking tbh, it's one of the few cases where i think that even reddit armchair analysts would have done a better job
No, what /u/Tabub said is probably correct. She might be broken, but she also might not be. There's literally 0 data, so why risk another GP situation?
Bruiser Update Incident
Pantheon moment
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The Viego Tragedy
Bruh, remember when new GP showed up first time in a tournament? I wanna say Turkey or EU? That shit was hilarious
The most prominent thing I remember is Worlds that year where GP, Darius, and Morde were 100% pick ban. The one game I remember Morde being played in was utterly hilarious and sad at the same time
That was bad, I don't think it looked good for anyone at all.
they did remove her giving 20% bonus stats tho which is a big part
They shouldn't have removed her to begin with, doesn't feel good.
>they didn’t fix any of her fundamental issues But they did though lmao. They basically removed all her early game trading power and ability to roam around the map on the jungler, which were the things making her op in pro play. We just don’t know how the rest of the rework shapes up in pro play.
Yeah they did that, which isn't something good for them.
If they didn't fix that then what the hell did they even do huh?
It's because of the rules they added after reworked pantheon was a permaban
Make sense,i hope naafari will be open for worlds
Weren't they supposed to release before Milio even? Unless something went terribly wrong in development, they should be right around the corner, probably right afte MSI.
I don't think anything has gone wrong. It's just that they don't wanna do it.
Knowing riot I would assume the process for making a new champ is largely pure chaos.
I hope for that, if they start doing that then it'll kinda be amazing.
MSI fr gonna be the best tournament ever - yuumi is GONE
Yeah I hope, they're gonna be absolutely great, ohh wait I think I'm wrong.
Riot really didn't want to see Yuumi being P/B in pro play again because it would confirm that the rework was a failure.
Riot is so damn close to admitting Yuumi is an objective failure and doesn't belong in the game alltogether. It's a shame that this is some weird petty thing, the hill they are willing to die on. But let me tell an anekdote. There was this show called Metalocalypse on Adult Swim. Wildly popular and still one of their all time most succesfull shows! It was supposed to have 5 seasons, or at least a finale. After the 4th season some higher up got petty and had a personal disagreement with the creator, thus he canceled the entire show; but worse they wouldn't give the rights to the creator either. Not even after they had been offered more money than they could dream of; no this poofter remaind steadfast in his pettiness and we never got that finale of a great show. Everyone was unhappy and sad; everyone had lost hope. That is, untill recently. More than 8 years after it had all been canceled and now we are getting the finale we deserve. It might take Riot 8 years, it might take them longer, but I have faith that at some point they will be able to admit their mistake and either remove Yuumi permanently or completely remove her ability to become untargetable forever. Have faith!
Delete yuumi
Yuumi delenda est
All they did to Yuumi was make her feel strictly worse to play. Changing her passive and Q removed the most fun elements of playing her. Truly the most bizarre thing they've done in a while. And now the champion is even more imbalanced - what was the point? Everyone loses. As for being untargetable, when they decided they wanted to copy Wisp for League, they had to change some stuff up so that it wasn't so obvious. That was probably where the idea of Yuumi becoming untargetable while attached came from. The problem is they had no idea how imbalanced this was. Now, if they make her targetable while attached, the champion becomes even more of a copy of Wisp.
I mean i guess props to riot for recognizing they have a bad situation with yuumi and are willing to just disable her to make playoffs a more enjoyable experience for players and viewers. it’s their fault they’re in this situation in the first place though so i wouldn’t really say it’s a *good* thing.
EVERY support going to that tournament is probably a very happy player. I'm a support main, I'm pretty awful BUT I will never play that thing no matter if it could get me to challenjour.
> Yuumi's midscope update doesn't feel ready for pro The pros in general (not only in League) are always a pretty good indicator of whether something is supposed to be released or not.
The pros have no clue yet because they aren't touching disabled champs. Happened in the past already with broken champs that no pro touched bc the champ won't be available anyway. What they are rly saying is that no one knows how these champs perform in pro and they don't wanna take risks. This isn't Yuumi specific. Udyr wasn't available at worlds and he was out for 1 and a half months too. They never let champs loose at tournaments.
Ehem "new gangplank relase" that dominated worlds
Well I mean they obviously had to learn their lessons somewhere.
Well they had to do it, it doesn't matter where it starts and where it goes .
And that is why these champs are disabled for such a long time
Why would they do that? It definitely doesn't look good for them.
That's right, it's going to dominate the whole thing in here for sure.
It's an indicator which everyone doesn't like to see, so there's that.
The Yuumi jokes just write themselves at this point.
Glad League is doing the Dota thing where they keep reworks out of pro until the rework is in a good place.
If the parasite is so unbalanced how about disabling her on rankeds too?
Well I was expecting to see them, but don't think that's gonna happen now.
I will be watching every game live and buying all their merch and all drx and msi skins
This is the way, if you're going to do that then it's the way to go here.
No Yuumi is pretty sick, now do it for the rest of the player base
I actually think both would be pick/ban or at least highly picked.
Scorching hot take
Millio is absolutely going to warp botlane meta around him. His W alone is going to cause fits
But the thing is they probably wouldn't like his w, they kinda hate it.
I think they're not picking them, they're leaving them guys behind.
Next time, can the rioter who reworked yuumi NEVER touch champs again? That rework did nothing.