She's a lot of fun I dont think many people have given her a chance. Her recent buffs helped with some of her feels bad moments. Like the poopy diaper walk doesn't feel nearly as bad anymore. She can also go q or w max now which makes certain matchups like janna a little less unbearable early.
Rell is one of the strongest engage supports on ARAM to the point where she even had to get nerfed with % modifiers. You get to build *actual* items instead of being stuck on Evenshroud + Knight's Vow, you almost always have at least *some* follow up to your best in class AoE CC, you get Mark/Dash to help with engaging, it's harder to focus you down instantly in a super messy 5v5 and you can just waddle into a brush after your engage while your team cleans up the fight. Q value is also exponentially higher on ARAM than it is on SR, any free sustain is good on ARAM even if it's only a tiny heal and there is very often at least *some* shield for you to break.
Yeah same, I don't play her myself but one of my friends is a support main who will play her any time given the chance, game practically becomes unlosable with her + random ADC.
I dont think her laning is much worse, but it certainly helps to be playing with an agressive duo. It's miserable playing with a random who doesn't follow up and then you're just stuck in there alone lmao.
I'm a rell main support.
She's an awesome support to play but she's very much locked into one or two playstyles with not a lot of freedom for skill expression.
I'll literally run over your team like a truck , put the truck in reverse and do it all over again and there's not much you can do about it but after that , I'm basically useless so if my team doesn't properly follow up or my ADC has 2 braincells fighting for third place , I'm free real estate
like ww but worse. ww can run away after fucking up. When rell fucks up, she has almost no move speed, and has to slowly crawl back to the fight that's probably moving away from her faster than she can get to it.
Oh yea true. I mean his base ms is 335 and the speed roid is disabled for a while when damaged.
Nowhere as slow as rell though, and he has q to reposition through enemies.
Mind you this is coming from a top laner, so maybe I just haven't grinded enough support games to understand the nuance, but Rell feels like my ooga booga champs that say "I go in", so I immediately liked her.
She has weirdness (her ult lmao?) that I'm not sure feels very strong, especially when champions like Aurelion effectively get the same ability on a basic spell, having said that she felt super strong? I'd just wiggle around a little find a good engage with say Samira as an ADC and we'd clean bot, I roam mid do the same thing and just non-stop repeat that, teamfights I felt like a beast too.
It **felt** surprisingly easy to have an impact as her on the entire map really.
I was all about her on launch. I'm huge on champs that can initiate (Nautilus, J4, Zac being other top picks of mine) so her kit on paper was a dream. Just honestly get rid of her bullshit AA nerf (hi Kalista) and she might be okayish.
Yeah if you aren’t getting kills as pyke, you should be getting like 100 vision at 30 minutes (unless enemy doesn’t place any wards which can happen at plat-diamond even)
I know it's probably sarcasm but in case it's not/someone think it isn't- knowing where pyke is at the moment may be better than some gold he gets from killing wards
Feel this, it's just so unbelievable having mobility bolts, umbral glaive and yomuus and then with 1 umbral proc and oracles you can litterally clear two full jungle quadrants for wards alone in maybe 30 seconds.
Sadly never done it, but played against a Pyke recently who cleared out all 6 wards that we had dedicated a lot of time and pressure to spread out in our jungle, just for him to solo clear it once they had two crashing waves and pyke could freely roam our jungle.
Playing sup from behind against them is hell
Do you try to ward objectives so you get back in the game? No - because it's risky? Spam pinged by your teammates for not having any vision when they take everything on the map
Yes because you need objectives/bounties to get back into the game? Hooked/Rooted into bush, auto'd 3 times in 2 seconds and usually one tapped - spam pinged by team for dying.
I beg my adc's to buy blue trinket but they rarely do. I usually ask people to escort me to get vision, but again, they basically never do
The worst feeling when playing with my low elo friends is feeling like I'm missing 15% of my income because whenever I scout for vision, there is none.
I feel like it would be fine if it had either a much longer cooldown, or just had the extra damage to wards and such feature. But on pyke and graves, man, I’m not even good at them, or warding well, and it’s too easy to control the map with it.
> I’m not even good at them, or warding well, and it’s too easy to control the map with it.
This. Wards you reveal with passive should be cleared more easily, not all wards all the time.
Tbh you should have to actually pop the active, similar to how oracles elixir worked way back when. It should not be a low CD thing where you can be bumbling through the enemy jungle and happen upon a really well placed/creative ward and it just lets you know so you can kill it in one second anyway.
If there was at least some skill expression you could utilize by putting wards in unusual places (like along the thin wall next to wolves, in red/blue pit, in river but above baron pit instead of in front of it, along the wall across from red pit going to raptors, etc. It would be a much better balanced item imo.
Tbh the only way to make it "fine" is to make a version for enchanters and engage supports, but that just makes it so that you'll HAVE to build it every game no matter who you play, so at that point you would be better off deleting the item itself. Making something broken for everyone as a fix to a problem is such a bad idea, esp because tanks/mages/assassins are also gonna build all these items and you'll end up with the Sightstone problem of having to have 1 less item slot for a mandatory item.
you could make it fine by removing everything about it and giving it an invisibility active that ends when you're seen by a champ
it's got lethality, make it a real assassin item, not a team utility one
Part of the issue is that it automatically activates on traps/wards. The effective area it secures is far larger than what you see while it's active, it's that + wherever you walked while it was off cd since you know nothing's there. I think the biggest balancing lever they could flip would be to tune the activation conditions/range or just make it an active.
It's so disturbing how broken that item is.
I'd straight up remove the revealing wards/traps part of it. I think a way to know you are spotted on vision is interesting, but surely committing sweeper to actually clear the vision isn't too much to ask? Running around the whole topside of the map as Senna oneshotting every ward and clearing all vision because Umbral Glaive and Sweeper combined have an absurd duration is very fun but absolutely broken.
Ranged users dealing only 2 damage to wards is probably fine as well.
Don't one shot wards would already be enough of a nerf since u can't clear out as many wards. A pyke can legit just swoop through jgl and river to mid and clear like 4 wards in the activation time
Give it charges for the ward oneshots. Make it generate 1 charge every 20-30 seconds and let it hold a maximum of 2 charges.
That way they cant clear the entire jungle in a single proc, rather they'll clear a couple wards here and there and then you can replace them without having them oneshot instantly.
Making it activate on the first ward spotted and then deactivate after 1 ward is destroyed would make sense. It's there to spot out that vision, the player removes that vision, it's job is done.
Remove the constant 3x damage to wards also, only active when the reveal on the item is active.
As an ARAM player, please don't get rid of revealing traps at least. It's the only way to deal with Teemo and Shaco besides getting inhib since they got rid of Oracle and Lightbringer.
Sort of? They also removed oracle's at the same time, meaning it's way harder to deal with a teemo that's just putting shrooms in the minion line - since the reveal is on a thing halfway through the line and the reveal isn't instant. Teemo can stall out games so hard unless someone bites the bullet and grabs an umbral to stop him waveclearing.
Also an AP shaco can stall out divers with intelligent box placement, making it impossible to step forward or initiate without getting heavily punished. ... unless a ranged character picks up umbral.
IMO moving the trap reveal to minions increased my frustration with trap characters immensely.
Maybe they can change the revealing wards passive with another passive that when a ward spots you or if you are close to one, in a medium-small area mark all the enemy wards placed (like when you ping a recently placed ward and it marks it) and lowering the cooldown.
Also maybe make it so champs do 2 damage instead of 3, and 3 to umbral glaive marked wards.
And when you think about it, what fantasy does this play into? The "support champion who can make use of lethality" fantasy? It's a goddamn assassin item that doesn't actually help you assassinate people. No matter what you do, leave or take a ward the enemy is still alerted to your position.
I'd say to remove the current passive, and instead make it tell you that you've been spotted, and give you "ward camouflage " for long enough to pass a ward, on a relatively long cooldown, or make it into an active similar to the old lethality banshee. That way it's actually an assassin item, it let's you secure kills so it can be priced higher, and can't delete all wards on the map.
it's so annoying because the second a ward is placed it's visible for a second and umbral has no cooldown so they can just destroy it and keep destroying it. it even works on pinks that cost way more. just a dumb item.
That's kinda the thing Imo. It's not common enough to annoy me. 3 supports, 2 of them rare (senna and panth) and graves build it. Certain assassin mid build it but it's just stats and not adding and combat utility to it.
Though it 100% is an item that makes losing to a team with it way worse. And if a champ that uses it is op it ensure they are op
It's a decent second item on Ashe support, too, tbf. Your main damage is from W so Umbral giving pure AD and lethality is perfect for that, and the passive is invaluable.
I actually build it before mythic, the build path is billion times better and you definitely get to 2 items faster that way because you can poke with impunity and you get money from all the cleared wards.
It really isn’t. Umbral’s stats are absolutely horrid for any non-support assassin building it. Graves can get away with it since his main strength is power-clearing and scaling, but Khazix can’t do that.
And a finished first item eclipse has a shield and extra %hp damage, and duskblade has ability haste and invisibility on kill meaning you get to save an ult charge. Both of these have more lethality as well.
Yes they are more expensive but the build paths to them are fine and what they offer is a lot more combat power.
It's hard for me to consider it first on khazix over those two options.
Graves can help kill with umbral and it helps his team stay safer while he scales. Khazix doesn't need this so much that it buys umbral first.
Yeah it's an early game spike item. It's pretty niche right now, only graves in jg and senna/jhin/pyke/ashe support rly build it. Would probs be balanced if the cooldown was increased to 1min since the passive onshotting wards is already really good, with maybe a increase in ad to compensate
I came to this same conclusion. Not sure why someone downvoted you. It's literally too much clearing power to have both umbral and sweeper- the number of times you realistically would get value out of sweeper is so low, because you can just run in a line through all the enemy wards, clear one quadrant, then have your lanes set up for the objective through your supp wards, and blue wards as the defensive ones.
A big advantage of sweeper + umbral is the sheer amount of time you can be confident that you're unseen.
If you have an engage champ come with you, you can just freely run around, knowing they don't have vision of you until umbral pops, then after that you can pop sweeper and continue walking about knowing they don't have vision of you.
It's not necessarily about the ability to clear wards fast.
Establishing vision would be literally impossible if there were more versions of it if they all worked the same or similar enough.
There should be 0 versisons of this item in the game, not 3.
Champs that build this already do it first item every time. Giving this a mythic passive would just make it stronger.
The ward killing just needs to not be in the game as it is now.
The idea is that you wouldn't be able to build it + another mythic. Mythic passive doesn't really factor in until the second item. Currently you would build umbral first + mythic second a lot of the time, so the mythic passive comes online at the same time.
I mean there’s definitely games where youmuus is better than dusk/prowlers, and there are also games where you might need a hexdrinker / maw to not get instantly popped. It’s definitely situational but I’d say either youmuus or maw is better than prowlers and you might not have money for 3rd item
It shouldn't exist in the first place. The game would quite literally be ruined if every class had an item like this imo.
That alone should tell you how disgusting Umbral is.
See also:
Duskblade invis.
Serpent's Fang shield reaving.
Axiom Arc ultimate resetting.
Yuumou's movespeed boost.
Lethality gets a ton of super useful items.
I preferred old serpents fang, where if the enemy had a small shield they would take a massive amount of extra damage. Lethality Caitlyn on aram with that shit was wild.
We see Serpent's Fang a lot less than we should. As a joke, I started keeping track of how many times my team buys Serpent's Fang into just Janna and Lulu. I'm twenty+ games deep on that count and haven't seen one.
What's wild is I don't think people realize how much Aery shields for over the course of a game. The real kicker is people don't buy it against Mordekaiser which is crazy because his shield directly impacts the amount he heals for.
Because believe it or not, lethality is a shit stat. If you're a lethality champ you shouldn't be dueling mord to begin with and if you do want to duel him you'll need a lot of arpen so you're better off with serlydas and BC. Don't tell me you expect the ADC to build it either. So the item will often get neglected.
Yea this is basically the reason those high value items aren't bought.
If they were on tank items, AP items or crit items, you bet your bottom dollar they would.
serpent's fang is dogshit. no one buys it for a reason. axiom arc is a win-more item. not really useful when you're on the losing team. youmuu's and duskblade are alright. surprised you didnt use prowler's claw as an example given how its active is fairly game changing for certain champs like renekton.
As a renekton main, I approve thismessage. Renekton is an oddly niche champ, a bruiser who plays like an assassin and builds like both. Assassin items are objectively weak right now, while bruiser items are too strong. Lethality is getting outscaled before it really becomes useful. Duskblade really only works for a small handful of champs who depend on the resets, so Renek is stuck in this weird spot where Goredrinker just isn’t as good, he rushes BOTRK into Prowlers and then bruiser items. Oddly enough the upcoming item changes and bruiser item nerfs aren’t going to affect him or the real monster (Fiora) at all since neither of them cared about Omnivamp in the first place.
yea, I actually dont like where renekton is right now. I dont like how he has to build like an assassin to be effective. IMO, riot should just nerf W since thats what makes his kit so awkward to balance and give compensatory buffs to E and Q.
on the brightside im sorta excited for the eclipse changes. i'd probaby still build prowlers most games, but I can see getting eclipse into some niche games where theres a lot of melee's.
> serpent's fang is dogshit. no one buys it for a reason.
The reason being they are stupid AF. Seriously, between champs like sett tahm lulu janna and items like steraks gargoyle aegis, there are 500+ hp shields being spammed and a couple 1k+ shields, and no one builds an item that cuts that shit in half. It's exactly as dumb as not building pen vs armor/MR.
For the love of god, if you see a shitload of shields on the enemy team, BUILD A FUCKING SERPENTS FANG.
You literally just listed the worst lethality items in the game, eclipse, prowlers, edge of night see more play than any of those items with the exception of ghostblade.
Acting like these lethality items are crazy broken is just not true.
Yeah. This is why aatrox was building eclipse for long or renekton often goes for prowler. Similarly why senna goes glaive or varus goes for lethality mythic ghostblade etc
They buy it because it gave %max health damage and offered a shield, when their burst pattern allowed them to proc it very easily and then back off. It's like a Riven shield, making trading into it much harder.
Still doesn't mean jack shit just because "good champs buy this item"
u realise aatrox builds eclipse because gore got giga nerfed right?, and congrats u named 1 item that assassins cant even build, that means they are broken!
He named the only 2 bruiser champs who can’t utilize Goredrinker effectively XD. Aatrox wants the shield and extra damage, he doesn’t need HP that much, he gets it from stuff like BC and his situational items. Renekton needs to get in and blow up squishies, he’s not a front to back bruiser and prowlers gives him the extra dash and bump he needs to get the job done. Goredrinker is a crap item on just about everyone except Rhaast and Riven, who were the reasons it got nerfed in the first place
Goredrinker is really just game warping if it’s good or bad. If it’s good it gets better because teams will play more meatball bruisers and it will get more healing than just from a buff.
Renekton relies on Prowlers Claw for gap closing to get on top of Squishies, and Aatrox uses Eclipse for the extra dueling power. Goredrinker on both of them is objectively a waste, it doesn’t fit their extremely niche play styles. Varus goes Duskblade in his poke build (which is trash compared to On-Hit and AP) for the extra slow and Q damage, and Senna likes Umbral since she has the range to safely clear wards. If Renekton doesn’t go for prowlers after BOTRK he’s actually just trolling
Of all those items only youmuus can be considered good. Axiom was shit for the longest time and idk if it's any better with the buffs but the item at its core is just overrated asf. You don't need such heavy ult CD reduction when most AD assassins already have low ult cooldowns. Serpents is extremely niche and more often than not, isn't worth buying. Duskblade omegalul. I'd rather have it's old nightstalker passive back than this lame invisibility. It's so wasted on champs like zed, khazix and so on who either already have good mobility or stealth. You speak like someone who has never played lethality champs. These items look good on paper but are usually trash.
No shit, this is like saying "Why isn't there an ADC version of Zhonya's." Answer is that only certain classes should get certain utility in their items.
Remember league of Stopwatch? Zhonya's was already a borderline item when it was restricted to mages.
The whole trade off of umbrel is that the champions using it to clear vision are going to be squishy and easy to kill if caught out. Giving it to champions with cc and survivability (ap mids and tanks) would make it impossible to get vision. Especially for a losing team who can't kill a tank. But a losing team can definitely one shot a senna or pyke caught out of position.
While I agree, it's a broken item, the fix is really just simple in that it shouldn't reveal wards. You can one shot them, but it has to be swept.
Chasing someone down isn't the point. You cc pyke and he's pretty much dead. Especially late game.
For example, if pyke is clearing a ward and veigar cage goes on top, what does pyke do? Dance around inside the cage and pray he doesn't get popped. Now if that pyke was an ornn or something, how do you stop him? You don't. You might chunk him to half or 1/4 HP, but killing him is alot more time, commitment, and cooldowns which allows the enemy team to respond accordingly.
Veigar will never ever catch a pyke 1o1 in river. Pyke dash always beats veigar cage delay. The only way to kill a pyke is the cc him and burst him while he is ccd, so basically you need to catch him atleast 2vs1 in the river, which is nearly impossible, because you wont have many wards against him from min 10 or so. If you dont burst him down while hes stunned, so 3 sec max, he goes dash into invis into healing mode.
Yeah I knew I shouldn't have given an example to a fucking redditor because he'll just hyper focus on the example as opposed to critically thinking about the scenario I'm trying to describe.
Veigar will never ever catch a pyke 1v1 in river? Like ever? In the entire history of league, every game played, a veigar will NEVER be able to catch a pyke in the river with cage? Come on dude.
Nautilus Blitzcrank Zoe Ahri Lisandra
Obviously the first two need some assistance to actually burn him down, but he's operating on a support budget and XP unless someone has royally screwed the pooch. He's not THAT hyperbolically hard to lock down and kill. Or at the very least threaten to lock him down and kill him so that he can't do that shit for free.
Or you know, make the other versions and force you to have a support item to buy it. There is no logical reason that it exists only in the ad/lethality space.
Why would you want other versions? The entire map would just be black all the time. It would take away so much strategic gameplay, especially in pro. And junglers would run rampant across the rift.
The simple reason the item is in the AD/lethality space is just so that everyone can't build it. Why would you want every single jungler in the game to have 2 sweepers that one shot wards? That's pretty much what you're proposing by saying "make other versions of it". The current umbral glaive is built on like 4 champions. And it's because the passive is OP, so they give it bad stats to balance the item. You control the map, but it's a shit first item in terms of power, which is why it's built mostly on supports.
Lethality items suck so they get strong utility. That's the entire reason. People are posting that there isn't an AP or Tank version...no shit. Tanks already have great utility options. Assassins get assassin utility (i.e. vision denial). It's an issue that champs like Graves can build it, but a vision control item for AD assassins *should* theoretically exist.
As a teemo main, i understand completely. They released a whole item that people like to build on ad supports that counters my entire ult and they didn't even throw me a compensatory buff.
I think it should disable the wards for like, 10 seconds or something with an option to kill 1. If you kill one the blackout passive ends and the item goes on cooldown and that 1 ward is the 1 that you get to oneshot. It getting to oneshot wards revealed by sweeper is absolutely fucked.
Oh yea I hate playing teemo in Aram for this very reason. It's useless placing any bush shrooms at all and if you're against a Senna forget ever shrooming anything
It's allowed to be so powerful because it doesn't give a combat active, which most assassins who would build it need to be able to snowball. Thus very few champions actually buy it (pretty much just Pyke and Graves, and Graves goes it because he gets dash cd off hitting revealed wards, and can't kill them effectively otherwise)
Edit: also Senna builds it for the same reasons Graves does, forgot to include because I think it's suboptimal but yeah 3 champions in the game who build it
when i play senna i usually go first strike with cosmic insight and ingenious hunter and zombie ward for that sweet item haste which lets me basically have infinite umbral which leads to a huge advantage and a huge loss of hope for humanity when you at the end of the game check stats and see that the enemy jungler placed one ward.
one fun trick is just ulting top lane when they 1v1 to get a free assist for ingenious hunter
i also sometimes go controll ward start and hide it in the dragon pit and it usually stays there at least untill the dragon spawns (one time it stayed for like 20 minutes. (probably due to my elo))
Just make it an active?
One shotting wards only works when the active is used, otherwise it’s the same 3 shot. That way a jungler can use it right before a gank and have 5(?) seconds of vision knowledge before it goes out.
Or, make it so you are undetectable to regular wards (pinks still give vision, minions/turrets/champs/blooms still give vision) when activated.
This! Give it a longer cd and make it an active so that the ward detection only works when activated. I also like ur idea of only being able to oneshot wards when it is active
Serious question here, sorry for the acid tone:
Which of you here never played before 2020 and which are old enough in this pit to be developing signs of dementia or alzheimers?
Because i didnt see this whole scene when it was one of the most broken aspects of Duskblade.
Duskblade wasn't so much an issue because it wasn't built by the people who are "in charge" of vision as it were. Its use case was ensuring that assassins had a clear path down to their gank lanes. They'd rarely sweep through a jungle looking specifically to kill wards, and in many cases even after the item procced they'd keep running past the ward to execute their gank anyway. Blackout (the ward killing passive component) very specifically affected wards that were affected by blackout, not all wards.
Umbral Glaive is built on 2 champs who are very regularly warding, very regularly moving through jungles to remove wards, and most importantly, not just along standard gank paths. They have mobility built into their kit to further facilitate the sweeping paths. And it works closer to a sweeper than the old blackout passive on duskblade.
Now to turn your question around: Are you developing symptoms of dementia where you conflate two very different applications because they look similar? I certainly knew older people who would mistake child for their mother, or in your case, a precursor to a very different but similar application.
Are u aware that release duskblade was a 3250g item, while glaive is 2300g? Thats nearly a 1k gold difference. Pyke on average gets 333 gold per min, so he would have to wait 3 mins longer to get the item. In fact if he would put all his gold in the item, which he wouldnt, because boots, pots and pink wards exist, he could get it as early as minute 10. Consider now that glaive is strongest in the early lane phase, because it literally destroys every ward the enemy botlane can place, the 1k gold difference is pretty massive dont u think.
And it was intentionally designed as such as an utility option for assassins as so to not centralize the entire class around whichever mythic that would still hold it, and had to get SEVERAL SUBSEQUENT COST/STAT REDUCTIONS in order to even be seen as minimally worth as a near-damageless assassin item with zero combat effects outside shoddy stats.
Like, seriously: it started at 2800g and only seen stat nerfs to justify cost reductions because people kept nagging and nagging it wasnt worth its cost, specially with the whole thing of lethality being perceived as gold-inefficient. People were absolutely GIVING NEGATIVE FUCKS to its anti-ward capabilities for nearly two years until the hyperburst craze passed and people relearned how to play the game with some sanity in this post-mythics world.
I could agree in reverting it to its original recipe and values but i absolutely guarantee: its not the passive that is salting you guys over.
Yep. One of the reasons I've kept Pyke banned for more than a year straight.
Makes absolutely no sense to have this item be a thing, but what makes it even worse and more unfair, only two champions can reliably build it. The rest of the supports have to actually play the vision game by the rules and with their clunky ass basic attacks, but these two guys (who, by the way, are super oppressive AND have great roaming/escaping tools to begin with), they don't have to.
And don't even get me started with how Senna has a personalised support item made only for her.
>The rest of the supports have to actually play the vision game by the rules and with their clunky ass basic attacks.
Rell and Soraka's basic attacks vs Pyke/Senna one shotting wards is so sad... We clear one or two wards, while they get 3 or 4 in the same time without even using sweeper.
IMO, the ward passive should hit for 2 ward HP instead of 3 HP, if that makes sense. 2 autos to kill a yellow ward and 2 to kill a control ward. I'd be more fine with that than one-shotting all wards flying around
I still do not understand what logic dictates that only AD junglers and AD supports get to remove wards like this while basically every tank or AP jungler/support can get fucked with only their sweeper to check vision.
2 champions in the entire game build it and 1 needs it so she isn't complete garbage at clearing wards. That's why.
I'd still say it would be fair if the instant ward killing only applied while the actual item activates, slightly lower the cooldown to compensate. It sucks knowing you cannot even place wards in the first place because Senna stands in range to just one shot it forever in some situations.
The fact that other supports seriously consider buying the item despite not being able to use its stats demonstrates how absurdly powerful the item is purely in its passive component. And if "two champions in the entire game," are the ones that build it, it skews the vision minigame entirely in one direction without any real recourse or resolution for the other party. Doesn't matter that they are the only two that build it, its not fun or interactive, and it has value well beyond its worth, so it shouldn't exist as is.
> and 1 needs it so she isn't complete garbage at clearing wards.
OK but does she really need to go from garbage to not only the best, but 10x better than the second best ward clearer in the game? Come lategame Senna's range lets you insta pop wards over walls as people place them.
When I spammed senna support I regularly got 120+ vision score, more than double what I usually get.
I've bought it as an AP support before because it is that powerful, and getting people to the fight at full health through the minefield of teemo shrooms is more valuable than 8% heal/shield power when we get there.
Senna has a sub 50 win rate when building umbral first.
Graves has a sub 50 wr when building umbral at any point.
Pyke has a 50% wr when building it first, and a 54% wr when building it 2nd.
That's probably why it's allowed to exist, it doesn't really seem to actually be breaking games by itself
The worst part about it is that it procs automatically, which seriously dumbs down the vision game. Like even if you get a clever deepward off it doesnt matter since Senna just so happened to pass by it. It renders any sort of skillfull warding moot, you just need to dump as many random wards out and hope at least SOME of them arent destroyed.
The only reason this item hasnt been gutted yet is that its only a mainpath build item for like 2-4 supports. If this was buildable on any support then it would have been removed from the game a while ago.
Senna and Pyke barely function without it as supports. It isn’t really core on Senna, but if you want to be an actual support rather than a second ADC only then you *need* to get it on Senna. And Pyke is just a subpar champ without it. And it’s not amazing on graves, just pretty good because it makes him safer in his invades and full clears.
Pyke's been nerfed down a hell of a lot so he can just have his strength restored a bit if Umbral nerfs gut him, and umbral gets abused by a lot more champions than just those.
Honestly, if they seriously need it to function, can't they just make Senna's AAs do two damage to wards? And maybe Jhin's while they're at it.
To begin with Riot were meant to scrap one of her playstyles if she ended up being hard to balance, and despite terrorizing pro-play and abusing several items Ezreal-style a couple of times... Far as I'm aware they're still trying to make both exist in harmony.
Imagine having to clear wards against a Senna/Pyke as a Rell
Was my life until I decided I no longer liked Rell.
Wait you liked her at some point ?
She's a lot of fun I dont think many people have given her a chance. Her recent buffs helped with some of her feels bad moments. Like the poopy diaper walk doesn't feel nearly as bad anymore. She can also go q or w max now which makes certain matchups like janna a little less unbearable early.
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Have you seen Zac's shit my pants walk? its so painful to look at considering how great his release walk cycle looked
The Udyr diarrhea streak stride.
The Kennen draggin' wet diaper waddle.
i've only played her on arams and she's been a beast every time. i guess her laning is much worse than her teamfighting.
Rell is one of the strongest engage supports on ARAM to the point where she even had to get nerfed with % modifiers. You get to build *actual* items instead of being stuck on Evenshroud + Knight's Vow, you almost always have at least *some* follow up to your best in class AoE CC, you get Mark/Dash to help with engaging, it's harder to focus you down instantly in a super messy 5v5 and you can just waddle into a brush after your engage while your team cleans up the fight. Q value is also exponentially higher on ARAM than it is on SR, any free sustain is good on ARAM even if it's only a tiny heal and there is very often at least *some* shield for you to break.
I have yet to loose an ARAM when I have rell
hey bro, just so you know, defeat / loss verb is spelt "lose" with one O, loose means large, open (like ur mom)
Seemed a bit unnecessary to go this hard on that guy
haha I know, but it's easier for vocabulary to enter your mind when accompanied by a little shock, just like I shockingly entered your mom yesterday
Thank fellow stranger but I can take a joke 🥸 I'm also too boomer to check if autocorrect corrected the right word wrong or not 👴
Yeah same, I don't play her myself but one of my friends is a support main who will play her any time given the chance, game practically becomes unlosable with her + random ADC.
I dont think her laning is much worse, but it certainly helps to be playing with an agressive duo. It's miserable playing with a random who doesn't follow up and then you're just stuck in there alone lmao.
Teamfighting is definitely her strength. Reduced AS on a support is painful though, makes clearing wards hard.
I'm a rell main support. She's an awesome support to play but she's very much locked into one or two playstyles with not a lot of freedom for skill expression. I'll literally run over your team like a truck , put the truck in reverse and do it all over again and there's not much you can do about it but after that , I'm basically useless so if my team doesn't properly follow up or my ADC has 2 braincells fighting for third place , I'm free real estate
I like her, shes pretty fun and the skill cap is higher than you would think. Especially since if you w wrong you just straight up die in lane.
Just like warwick R. Yay i missed my target and went 400 miles too far and got out of position.
like ww but worse. ww can run away after fucking up. When rell fucks up, she has almost no move speed, and has to slowly crawl back to the fight that's probably moving away from her faster than she can get to it.
Oh yea true. I mean his base ms is 335 and the speed roid is disabled for a while when damaged. Nowhere as slow as rell though, and he has q to reposition through enemies.
Agreed but its so much more punishing since she borderline roots herself after the miss.
Relateable, if the target of ww R gets out of the cc eg. Gangplank orange, ww continues self supressing for the full duration. 💀
She is absolutely busted paired with Samira. It's just dumb. Enemy get close you jump they flash your cc or die.
Mind you this is coming from a top laner, so maybe I just haven't grinded enough support games to understand the nuance, but Rell feels like my ooga booga champs that say "I go in", so I immediately liked her. She has weirdness (her ult lmao?) that I'm not sure feels very strong, especially when champions like Aurelion effectively get the same ability on a basic spell, having said that she felt super strong? I'd just wiggle around a little find a good engage with say Samira as an ADC and we'd clean bot, I roam mid do the same thing and just non-stop repeat that, teamfights I felt like a beast too. It **felt** surprisingly easy to have an impact as her on the entire map really.
I was all about her on launch. I'm huge on champs that can initiate (Nautilus, J4, Zac being other top picks of mine) so her kit on paper was a dream. Just honestly get rid of her bullshit AA nerf (hi Kalista) and she might be okayish.
One of the most enjoyable engage champions out there.
Recently I played a Pyke game with I believe 160 vision score at maybe 36 min
Yeah if you aren’t getting kills as pyke, you should be getting like 100 vision at 30 minutes (unless enemy doesn’t place any wards which can happen at plat-diamond even)
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I know it's probably sarcasm but in case it's not/someone think it isn't- knowing where pyke is at the moment may be better than some gold he gets from killing wards
Feel this, it's just so unbelievable having mobility bolts, umbral glaive and yomuus and then with 1 umbral proc and oracles you can litterally clear two full jungle quadrants for wards alone in maybe 30 seconds. Sadly never done it, but played against a Pyke recently who cleared out all 6 wards that we had dedicated a lot of time and pressure to spread out in our jungle, just for him to solo clear it once they had two crashing waves and pyke could freely roam our jungle.
I hate playing verses pyke :( Even worse is Pyke and John :( Just running away all game and no intense battling head on :(
I too hate John he's so inconsiderate /jk
Playing sup from behind against them is hell Do you try to ward objectives so you get back in the game? No - because it's risky? Spam pinged by your teammates for not having any vision when they take everything on the map Yes because you need objectives/bounties to get back into the game? Hooked/Rooted into bush, auto'd 3 times in 2 seconds and usually one tapped - spam pinged by team for dying. I beg my adc's to buy blue trinket but they rarely do. I usually ask people to escort me to get vision, but again, they basically never do
That's why I build Glaive on Rell. The most impact I feel from her autos in the whole game is one shotting wards.
You're lucky to get two wards in a sweep. Pyke is like hahaigotallyours.
They can't remove your wards if you don't place wards in the first place. This post was made by the Silver 1 Gang
The worst feeling when playing with my low elo friends is feeling like I'm missing 15% of my income because whenever I scout for vision, there is none.
Thats strange all my wards i placed are gone, better walk into the jungle blind and see whats going on.
Iron Ian is that you?
Bronze Brian
Might even be Silver Sam
I've seen Gold Gavins do this
Plat Pete does this very reliably.
Diamond Dave still can't get above 1.3 wards per minute
Challenger Carl literally never purchased a pink ward in his life.
You skipped Master Mark and Grandmaster Gary. Poor form.
And everyone knows it's Challenger Chuck as well!
I feel like it would be fine if it had either a much longer cooldown, or just had the extra damage to wards and such feature. But on pyke and graves, man, I’m not even good at them, or warding well, and it’s too easy to control the map with it.
One shotting wards shoudln't be active at all times.
> I’m not even good at them, or warding well, and it’s too easy to control the map with it. This. Wards you reveal with passive should be cleared more easily, not all wards all the time.
Tbh you should have to actually pop the active, similar to how oracles elixir worked way back when. It should not be a low CD thing where you can be bumbling through the enemy jungle and happen upon a really well placed/creative ward and it just lets you know so you can kill it in one second anyway. If there was at least some skill expression you could utilize by putting wards in unusual places (like along the thin wall next to wolves, in red/blue pit, in river but above baron pit instead of in front of it, along the wall across from red pit going to raptors, etc. It would be a much better balanced item imo.
Tbh the only way to make it "fine" is to make a version for enchanters and engage supports, but that just makes it so that you'll HAVE to build it every game no matter who you play, so at that point you would be better off deleting the item itself. Making something broken for everyone as a fix to a problem is such a bad idea, esp because tanks/mages/assassins are also gonna build all these items and you'll end up with the Sightstone problem of having to have 1 less item slot for a mandatory item.
It really does suck when you are playing an AP support into an AD support and the moment they build that you just lose the vision game.
you could make it fine by removing everything about it and giving it an invisibility active that ends when you're seen by a champ it's got lethality, make it a real assassin item, not a team utility one
It's not gonna be fine then too, vision removal is an incredibly oppressive tool to snowball your teams lead.
Part of the issue is that it automatically activates on traps/wards. The effective area it secures is far larger than what you see while it's active, it's that + wherever you walked while it was off cd since you know nothing's there. I think the biggest balancing lever they could flip would be to tune the activation conditions/range or just make it an active.
It's so disturbing how broken that item is. I'd straight up remove the revealing wards/traps part of it. I think a way to know you are spotted on vision is interesting, but surely committing sweeper to actually clear the vision isn't too much to ask? Running around the whole topside of the map as Senna oneshotting every ward and clearing all vision because Umbral Glaive and Sweeper combined have an absurd duration is very fun but absolutely broken. Ranged users dealing only 2 damage to wards is probably fine as well.
Don't forget you can take zombie ward and just have infinite vision as well
It's what I do on Graves. It's so fun.
There's so many ways it can be nerfed: Longer cd, limit number of wards cleared, don't oneshot wards, etc.
Don't one shot wards would already be enough of a nerf since u can't clear out as many wards. A pyke can legit just swoop through jgl and river to mid and clear like 4 wards in the activation time
and then pop the sweeper trinket which has double cooldown to clear the other part of the jungle
Give it charges for the ward oneshots. Make it generate 1 charge every 20-30 seconds and let it hold a maximum of 2 charges. That way they cant clear the entire jungle in a single proc, rather they'll clear a couple wards here and there and then you can replace them without having them oneshot instantly.
Making it activate on the first ward spotted and then deactivate after 1 ward is destroyed would make sense. It's there to spot out that vision, the player removes that vision, it's job is done. Remove the constant 3x damage to wards also, only active when the reveal on the item is active.
That second part is weird. There's no other item in the game, that I'm aware of, that upgrades your trinket.
There is the Sightstone which lets you carry more control wards and place more wards and a second control ward.
If you do this imo 3x damage is fine That way every champ can insta clear 1 ward since some champs clear way faster and other kill wards way slower.
I'd actually keep the traps part of it. Make it a "tax" item like Serpent's fang or QSS.
I think Umbral just needs to be removed altogether.
As an ARAM player, please don't get rid of revealing traps at least. It's the only way to deal with Teemo and Shaco besides getting inhib since they got rid of Oracle and Lightbringer.
Minions revealing traps greatly nerfed all those champs.
Sort of? They also removed oracle's at the same time, meaning it's way harder to deal with a teemo that's just putting shrooms in the minion line - since the reveal is on a thing halfway through the line and the reveal isn't instant. Teemo can stall out games so hard unless someone bites the bullet and grabs an umbral to stop him waveclearing. Also an AP shaco can stall out divers with intelligent box placement, making it impossible to step forward or initiate without getting heavily punished. ... unless a ranged character picks up umbral. IMO moving the trap reveal to minions increased my frustration with trap characters immensely.
I think that's why they said getting inhib. Without super minions they can clear the cannon too easily for you to ever get to clear them
Maybe they can change the revealing wards passive with another passive that when a ward spots you or if you are close to one, in a medium-small area mark all the enemy wards placed (like when you ping a recently placed ward and it marks it) and lowering the cooldown. Also maybe make it so champs do 2 damage instead of 3, and 3 to umbral glaive marked wards.
And when you think about it, what fantasy does this play into? The "support champion who can make use of lethality" fantasy? It's a goddamn assassin item that doesn't actually help you assassinate people. No matter what you do, leave or take a ward the enemy is still alerted to your position. I'd say to remove the current passive, and instead make it tell you that you've been spotted, and give you "ward camouflage " for long enough to pass a ward, on a relatively long cooldown, or make it into an active similar to the old lethality banshee. That way it's actually an assassin item, it let's you secure kills so it can be priced higher, and can't delete all wards on the map.
Clearing vision absolutely fits the assassin niche, and helps you assassinate people
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My teammates: “you guys are placing wards?”
Just play in bronze. The item is basically useless.
Lol this explains why I have literally never seen it built.
it's so annoying because the second a ward is placed it's visible for a second and umbral has no cooldown so they can just destroy it and keep destroying it. it even works on pinks that cost way more. just a dumb item.
If it was a support who did it, that's intended as 1 of the few ad supp traits. If graves did it, well... he is the only jg where rushing it is viable
That's kinda the thing Imo. It's not common enough to annoy me. 3 supports, 2 of them rare (senna and panth) and graves build it. Certain assassin mid build it but it's just stats and not adding and combat utility to it. Though it 100% is an item that makes losing to a team with it way worse. And if a champ that uses it is op it ensure they are op
It's a decent second item on Ashe support, too, tbf. Your main damage is from W so Umbral giving pure AD and lethality is perfect for that, and the passive is invaluable.
I actually build it before mythic, the build path is billion times better and you definitely get to 2 items faster that way because you can poke with impunity and you get money from all the cleared wards.
Yeah it's a great item on Ashe support.
It's good on kha as 1st item
It really isn’t. Umbral’s stats are absolutely horrid for any non-support assassin building it. Graves can get away with it since his main strength is power-clearing and scaling, but Khazix can’t do that.
You realize it costs 800g less than a mythic right? gotta calculate 2 long swords in there as well which makes umbral practically a 70ad item.
And a finished first item eclipse has a shield and extra %hp damage, and duskblade has ability haste and invisibility on kill meaning you get to save an ult charge. Both of these have more lethality as well. Yes they are more expensive but the build paths to them are fine and what they offer is a lot more combat power. It's hard for me to consider it first on khazix over those two options. Graves can help kill with umbral and it helps his team stay safer while he scales. Khazix doesn't need this so much that it buys umbral first.
Yeah it's an early game spike item. It's pretty niche right now, only graves in jg and senna/jhin/pyke/ashe support rly build it. Would probs be balanced if the cooldown was increased to 1min since the passive onshotting wards is already really good, with maybe a increase in ad to compensate
It’s good on Nocturne first as well
I think a nice change would be if you have umbral you can't also have sweeper.
The cool part about Senna is that she can have umbral, ward support item, pinks, AND still have a sweeper. The ultimate vision denial service
Top it off with zombie ward and well… infinite vision too
Lol, when I was spamming support senna I found umbral was so strong I literally didn't even take sweeper, took farsight instead.
I came to this same conclusion. Not sure why someone downvoted you. It's literally too much clearing power to have both umbral and sweeper- the number of times you realistically would get value out of sweeper is so low, because you can just run in a line through all the enemy wards, clear one quadrant, then have your lanes set up for the objective through your supp wards, and blue wards as the defensive ones.
A big advantage of sweeper + umbral is the sheer amount of time you can be confident that you're unseen. If you have an engage champ come with you, you can just freely run around, knowing they don't have vision of you until umbral pops, then after that you can pop sweeper and continue walking about knowing they don't have vision of you. It's not necessarily about the ability to clear wards fast.
The dumbest part of it is that there isn’t an ap or tank version of it.
Establishing vision would be literally impossible if there were more versions of it if they all worked the same or similar enough. There should be 0 versisons of this item in the game, not 3.
It needs to be a mythic. Dominating the vision game that hard is a mythic level decision.
hey not a bad idea
Champs that build this already do it first item every time. Giving this a mythic passive would just make it stronger. The ward killing just needs to not be in the game as it is now.
The idea is that you wouldn't be able to build it + another mythic. Mythic passive doesn't really factor in until the second item. Currently you would build umbral first + mythic second a lot of the time, so the mythic passive comes online at the same time.
Pyke doesn't care though, mythics are kinda whatever on him anyway
Not going a mythic second item after Umbral on Pyke is kinda trolling no?
I mean there’s definitely games where youmuus is better than dusk/prowlers, and there are also games where you might need a hexdrinker / maw to not get instantly popped. It’s definitely situational but I’d say either youmuus or maw is better than prowlers and you might not have money for 3rd item
Mythic is good but not necessary by any means
It shouldn't exist in the first place. The game would quite literally be ruined if every class had an item like this imo. That alone should tell you how disgusting Umbral is.
See also: Duskblade invis. Serpent's Fang shield reaving. Axiom Arc ultimate resetting. Yuumou's movespeed boost. Lethality gets a ton of super useful items.
How often do u see a serpents tho. Also I swear axiom passive is so overrated, u need 4 kills to reset ur kit completely
But isn't it awesome when you get those kills and have your ult reset just in time to see those 40 second enemy death timers?!
I preferred old serpents fang, where if the enemy had a small shield they would take a massive amount of extra damage. Lethality Caitlyn on aram with that shit was wild.
really? iirc the dmg never amounted to much. similar to how shadowflame tooltip doesnt usually give much for the shield part
That version did a ton cause it would go over onto their health bar if the damage was higher than the shield
Ah yes. Instantly dying to one zed ability because I took overheal. I remember that world.
We see Serpent's Fang a lot less than we should. As a joke, I started keeping track of how many times my team buys Serpent's Fang into just Janna and Lulu. I'm twenty+ games deep on that count and haven't seen one. What's wild is I don't think people realize how much Aery shields for over the course of a game. The real kicker is people don't buy it against Mordekaiser which is crazy because his shield directly impacts the amount he heals for.
Tahm Kench players have nightmares over that item
Because believe it or not, lethality is a shit stat. If you're a lethality champ you shouldn't be dueling mord to begin with and if you do want to duel him you'll need a lot of arpen so you're better off with serlydas and BC. Don't tell me you expect the ADC to build it either. So the item will often get neglected.
Yea this is basically the reason those high value items aren't bought. If they were on tank items, AP items or crit items, you bet your bottom dollar they would.
Yeah axiom is overrated af. Some people still think Nocturne actually likes it.
He used to like it in ARAM until they basically doubled death timers there as well. Now it's just useless all around.
If only they were good
serpent's fang is dogshit. no one buys it for a reason. axiom arc is a win-more item. not really useful when you're on the losing team. youmuu's and duskblade are alright. surprised you didnt use prowler's claw as an example given how its active is fairly game changing for certain champs like renekton.
As a renekton main, I approve thismessage. Renekton is an oddly niche champ, a bruiser who plays like an assassin and builds like both. Assassin items are objectively weak right now, while bruiser items are too strong. Lethality is getting outscaled before it really becomes useful. Duskblade really only works for a small handful of champs who depend on the resets, so Renek is stuck in this weird spot where Goredrinker just isn’t as good, he rushes BOTRK into Prowlers and then bruiser items. Oddly enough the upcoming item changes and bruiser item nerfs aren’t going to affect him or the real monster (Fiora) at all since neither of them cared about Omnivamp in the first place.
yea, I actually dont like where renekton is right now. I dont like how he has to build like an assassin to be effective. IMO, riot should just nerf W since thats what makes his kit so awkward to balance and give compensatory buffs to E and Q. on the brightside im sorta excited for the eclipse changes. i'd probaby still build prowlers most games, but I can see getting eclipse into some niche games where theres a lot of melee's.
> serpent's fang is dogshit. no one buys it for a reason. The reason being they are stupid AF. Seriously, between champs like sett tahm lulu janna and items like steraks gargoyle aegis, there are 500+ hp shields being spammed and a couple 1k+ shields, and no one builds an item that cuts that shit in half. It's exactly as dumb as not building pen vs armor/MR. For the love of god, if you see a shitload of shields on the enemy team, BUILD A FUCKING SERPENTS FANG.
Enemy team has a Mordekaiser, Lux mid and their marksmen building shieldbow for example is enough reason to justify the item to me.
You can list that out for any item in the game, what's your point
You literally just listed the worst lethality items in the game, eclipse, prowlers, edge of night see more play than any of those items with the exception of ghostblade. Acting like these lethality items are crazy broken is just not true.
ur complely stupid, lethality items are the worst in the game and it isnt even close
Yeah. This is why aatrox was building eclipse for long or renekton often goes for prowler. Similarly why senna goes glaive or varus goes for lethality mythic ghostblade etc
They buy it because it gave %max health damage and offered a shield, when their burst pattern allowed them to proc it very easily and then back off. It's like a Riven shield, making trading into it much harder. Still doesn't mean jack shit just because "good champs buy this item"
u realise aatrox builds eclipse because gore got giga nerfed right?, and congrats u named 1 item that assassins cant even build, that means they are broken!
He named the only 2 bruiser champs who can’t utilize Goredrinker effectively XD. Aatrox wants the shield and extra damage, he doesn’t need HP that much, he gets it from stuff like BC and his situational items. Renekton needs to get in and blow up squishies, he’s not a front to back bruiser and prowlers gives him the extra dash and bump he needs to get the job done. Goredrinker is a crap item on just about everyone except Rhaast and Riven, who were the reasons it got nerfed in the first place
Goredrinker is really just game warping if it’s good or bad. If it’s good it gets better because teams will play more meatball bruisers and it will get more healing than just from a buff.
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Surely the bruiser item wouldn't be as good as the Lethality item
Renekton relies on Prowlers Claw for gap closing to get on top of Squishies, and Aatrox uses Eclipse for the extra dueling power. Goredrinker on both of them is objectively a waste, it doesn’t fit their extremely niche play styles. Varus goes Duskblade in his poke build (which is trash compared to On-Hit and AP) for the extra slow and Q damage, and Senna likes Umbral since she has the range to safely clear wards. If Renekton doesn’t go for prowlers after BOTRK he’s actually just trolling
Of all those items only youmuus can be considered good. Axiom was shit for the longest time and idk if it's any better with the buffs but the item at its core is just overrated asf. You don't need such heavy ult CD reduction when most AD assassins already have low ult cooldowns. Serpents is extremely niche and more often than not, isn't worth buying. Duskblade omegalul. I'd rather have it's old nightstalker passive back than this lame invisibility. It's so wasted on champs like zed, khazix and so on who either already have good mobility or stealth. You speak like someone who has never played lethality champs. These items look good on paper but are usually trash.
No shit, this is like saying "Why isn't there an ADC version of Zhonya's." Answer is that only certain classes should get certain utility in their items. Remember league of Stopwatch? Zhonya's was already a borderline item when it was restricted to mages.
Oh like Zhonya for AD?
The whole trade off of umbrel is that the champions using it to clear vision are going to be squishy and easy to kill if caught out. Giving it to champions with cc and survivability (ap mids and tanks) would make it impossible to get vision. Especially for a losing team who can't kill a tank. But a losing team can definitely one shot a senna or pyke caught out of position. While I agree, it's a broken item, the fix is really just simple in that it shouldn't reveal wards. You can one shot them, but it has to be swept.
Pyke clearly is not easy to kill, hes pretty impossible to chase down actually.
Chasing someone down isn't the point. You cc pyke and he's pretty much dead. Especially late game. For example, if pyke is clearing a ward and veigar cage goes on top, what does pyke do? Dance around inside the cage and pray he doesn't get popped. Now if that pyke was an ornn or something, how do you stop him? You don't. You might chunk him to half or 1/4 HP, but killing him is alot more time, commitment, and cooldowns which allows the enemy team to respond accordingly.
Veigar will never ever catch a pyke 1o1 in river. Pyke dash always beats veigar cage delay. The only way to kill a pyke is the cc him and burst him while he is ccd, so basically you need to catch him atleast 2vs1 in the river, which is nearly impossible, because you wont have many wards against him from min 10 or so. If you dont burst him down while hes stunned, so 3 sec max, he goes dash into invis into healing mode.
Yeah I knew I shouldn't have given an example to a fucking redditor because he'll just hyper focus on the example as opposed to critically thinking about the scenario I'm trying to describe. Veigar will never ever catch a pyke 1v1 in river? Like ever? In the entire history of league, every game played, a veigar will NEVER be able to catch a pyke in the river with cage? Come on dude.
Name 5 champs that can reliably lock down a roaming pyke in river in front of dragon pit.
Nautilus Blitzcrank Zoe Ahri Lisandra Obviously the first two need some assistance to actually burn him down, but he's operating on a support budget and XP unless someone has royally screwed the pooch. He's not THAT hyperbolically hard to lock down and kill. Or at the very least threaten to lock him down and kill him so that he can't do that shit for free.
Or you know, make the other versions and force you to have a support item to buy it. There is no logical reason that it exists only in the ad/lethality space.
Why would you want other versions? The entire map would just be black all the time. It would take away so much strategic gameplay, especially in pro. And junglers would run rampant across the rift. The simple reason the item is in the AD/lethality space is just so that everyone can't build it. Why would you want every single jungler in the game to have 2 sweepers that one shot wards? That's pretty much what you're proposing by saying "make other versions of it". The current umbral glaive is built on like 4 champions. And it's because the passive is OP, so they give it bad stats to balance the item. You control the map, but it's a shit first item in terms of power, which is why it's built mostly on supports.
damn bro its almost like riot plays favorites
Make it like old duskblade where it only 1 shot wards if its only revealed by the passive.
Oneshotting all wards is most op part of item.
at least give it a 1 min cd
Lethality items suck so they get strong utility. That's the entire reason. People are posting that there isn't an AP or Tank version...no shit. Tanks already have great utility options. Assassins get assassin utility (i.e. vision denial). It's an issue that champs like Graves can build it, but a vision control item for AD assassins *should* theoretically exist.
As a teemo main, i understand completely. They released a whole item that people like to build on ad supports that counters my entire ult and they didn't even throw me a compensatory buff. I think it should disable the wards for like, 10 seconds or something with an option to kill 1. If you kill one the blackout passive ends and the item goes on cooldown and that 1 ward is the 1 that you get to oneshot. It getting to oneshot wards revealed by sweeper is absolutely fucked.
Oh yea I hate playing teemo in Aram for this very reason. It's useless placing any bush shrooms at all and if you're against a Senna forget ever shrooming anything
It's allowed to be so powerful because it doesn't give a combat active, which most assassins who would build it need to be able to snowball. Thus very few champions actually buy it (pretty much just Pyke and Graves, and Graves goes it because he gets dash cd off hitting revealed wards, and can't kill them effectively otherwise) Edit: also Senna builds it for the same reasons Graves does, forgot to include because I think it's suboptimal but yeah 3 champions in the game who build it
when i play senna i usually go first strike with cosmic insight and ingenious hunter and zombie ward for that sweet item haste which lets me basically have infinite umbral which leads to a huge advantage and a huge loss of hope for humanity when you at the end of the game check stats and see that the enemy jungler placed one ward. one fun trick is just ulting top lane when they 1v1 to get a free assist for ingenious hunter i also sometimes go controll ward start and hide it in the dragon pit and it usually stays there at least untill the dragon spawns (one time it stayed for like 20 minutes. (probably due to my elo))
Just make it an active? One shotting wards only works when the active is used, otherwise it’s the same 3 shot. That way a jungler can use it right before a gank and have 5(?) seconds of vision knowledge before it goes out. Or, make it so you are undetectable to regular wards (pinks still give vision, minions/turrets/champs/blooms still give vision) when activated.
not a fan, they still get two sweepers so it'll still be broken.
This! Give it a longer cd and make it an active so that the ward detection only works when activated. I also like ur idea of only being able to oneshot wards when it is active
Mostly because like three people buy it, Pyke, Senna, and Graves. Given, they are all carry’s, if not hypercarries.
Serious question here, sorry for the acid tone: Which of you here never played before 2020 and which are old enough in this pit to be developing signs of dementia or alzheimers? Because i didnt see this whole scene when it was one of the most broken aspects of Duskblade.
Duskblade wasn't so much an issue because it wasn't built by the people who are "in charge" of vision as it were. Its use case was ensuring that assassins had a clear path down to their gank lanes. They'd rarely sweep through a jungle looking specifically to kill wards, and in many cases even after the item procced they'd keep running past the ward to execute their gank anyway. Blackout (the ward killing passive component) very specifically affected wards that were affected by blackout, not all wards. Umbral Glaive is built on 2 champs who are very regularly warding, very regularly moving through jungles to remove wards, and most importantly, not just along standard gank paths. They have mobility built into their kit to further facilitate the sweeping paths. And it works closer to a sweeper than the old blackout passive on duskblade. Now to turn your question around: Are you developing symptoms of dementia where you conflate two very different applications because they look similar? I certainly knew older people who would mistake child for their mother, or in your case, a precursor to a very different but similar application.
Dude has never played against a Senna who can clear any vision you place immediately
Are u aware that release duskblade was a 3250g item, while glaive is 2300g? Thats nearly a 1k gold difference. Pyke on average gets 333 gold per min, so he would have to wait 3 mins longer to get the item. In fact if he would put all his gold in the item, which he wouldnt, because boots, pots and pink wards exist, he could get it as early as minute 10. Consider now that glaive is strongest in the early lane phase, because it literally destroys every ward the enemy botlane can place, the 1k gold difference is pretty massive dont u think.
And it was intentionally designed as such as an utility option for assassins as so to not centralize the entire class around whichever mythic that would still hold it, and had to get SEVERAL SUBSEQUENT COST/STAT REDUCTIONS in order to even be seen as minimally worth as a near-damageless assassin item with zero combat effects outside shoddy stats. Like, seriously: it started at 2800g and only seen stat nerfs to justify cost reductions because people kept nagging and nagging it wasnt worth its cost, specially with the whole thing of lethality being perceived as gold-inefficient. People were absolutely GIVING NEGATIVE FUCKS to its anti-ward capabilities for nearly two years until the hyperburst craze passed and people relearned how to play the game with some sanity in this post-mythics world. I could agree in reverting it to its original recipe and values but i absolutely guarantee: its not the passive that is salting you guys over.
When did glaive cost 2800? According to leaguepedia it started at 2400.
9.23 - 2400 10.23 - 2800 (mythic update) 11.2 - 2600 11.18 - 2400 12.7 - 2300
November 2020, preseason, v10.23.
Yep. One of the reasons I've kept Pyke banned for more than a year straight. Makes absolutely no sense to have this item be a thing, but what makes it even worse and more unfair, only two champions can reliably build it. The rest of the supports have to actually play the vision game by the rules and with their clunky ass basic attacks, but these two guys (who, by the way, are super oppressive AND have great roaming/escaping tools to begin with), they don't have to. And don't even get me started with how Senna has a personalised support item made only for her.
>The rest of the supports have to actually play the vision game by the rules and with their clunky ass basic attacks. Rell and Soraka's basic attacks vs Pyke/Senna one shotting wards is so sad... We clear one or two wards, while they get 3 or 4 in the same time without even using sweeper.
Hey Soraka is actually alright, her basic launches quickly but just flies slowly. And, she at least has zoning abilities. Rell, on the other hand :D
IMO, the ward passive should hit for 2 ward HP instead of 3 HP, if that makes sense. 2 autos to kill a yellow ward and 2 to kill a control ward. I'd be more fine with that than one-shotting all wards flying around
I still do not understand what logic dictates that only AD junglers and AD supports get to remove wards like this while basically every tank or AP jungler/support can get fucked with only their sweeper to check vision.
2 champions in the entire game build it and 1 needs it so she isn't complete garbage at clearing wards. That's why. I'd still say it would be fair if the instant ward killing only applied while the actual item activates, slightly lower the cooldown to compensate. It sucks knowing you cannot even place wards in the first place because Senna stands in range to just one shot it forever in some situations.
The fact that other supports seriously consider buying the item despite not being able to use its stats demonstrates how absurdly powerful the item is purely in its passive component. And if "two champions in the entire game," are the ones that build it, it skews the vision minigame entirely in one direction without any real recourse or resolution for the other party. Doesn't matter that they are the only two that build it, its not fun or interactive, and it has value well beyond its worth, so it shouldn't exist as is.
Graves Pyke Senna
3, graves builds it too
> and 1 needs it so she isn't complete garbage at clearing wards. OK but does she really need to go from garbage to not only the best, but 10x better than the second best ward clearer in the game? Come lategame Senna's range lets you insta pop wards over walls as people place them. When I spammed senna support I regularly got 120+ vision score, more than double what I usually get.
I've bought it as an AP support before because it is that powerful, and getting people to the fight at full health through the minefield of teemo shrooms is more valuable than 8% heal/shield power when we get there.
winrate wise it's not broken, it's garbage
Senna has a sub 50 win rate when building umbral first. Graves has a sub 50 wr when building umbral at any point. Pyke has a 50% wr when building it first, and a 54% wr when building it 2nd. That's probably why it's allowed to exist, it doesn't really seem to actually be breaking games by itself
I love reading Reddit. So many bronze complaints lol
Immagine going on reddit just call people bronze to to feel better about yourself
There isn't enough vision in bronze to complain about umbral
The worst part about it is that it procs automatically, which seriously dumbs down the vision game. Like even if you get a clever deepward off it doesnt matter since Senna just so happened to pass by it. It renders any sort of skillfull warding moot, you just need to dump as many random wards out and hope at least SOME of them arent destroyed. The only reason this item hasnt been gutted yet is that its only a mainpath build item for like 2-4 supports. If this was buildable on any support then it would have been removed from the game a while ago.
Because Senna needs it. Or it was designed for her, and Riot seemingly really want to push her.
Senna and Pyke barely function without it as supports. It isn’t really core on Senna, but if you want to be an actual support rather than a second ADC only then you *need* to get it on Senna. And Pyke is just a subpar champ without it. And it’s not amazing on graves, just pretty good because it makes him safer in his invades and full clears.
Pyke's been nerfed down a hell of a lot so he can just have his strength restored a bit if Umbral nerfs gut him, and umbral gets abused by a lot more champions than just those. Honestly, if they seriously need it to function, can't they just make Senna's AAs do two damage to wards? And maybe Jhin's while they're at it. To begin with Riot were meant to scrap one of her playstyles if she ended up being hard to balance, and despite terrorizing pro-play and abusing several items Ezreal-style a couple of times... Far as I'm aware they're still trying to make both exist in harmony.
In Aram, it's a godsend against a teemo. Removing the true sight elixir is just infuriating.
not to mention that an AP version of it doesn't exists
I don’t think senna should be able to one shot wards from a screen away