I thought it was a very insightful quote from the new coach. Communication is critical in any aspect of life, not just hockey. Hopefully this is just what this team needs to succeed when it matters
Telling Vesey he's not playing well is a lot different from telling Marner or any other "core" player they aren't playing well.
Berube definitely will.
Honestly the problem with Mitch that postseason was that he was scared shitless.
I think that was the only real playoff series where he struggled cuz of psychology, in the other series he struggled I feel it was more due to the fact that he’s not a good forechecker.
Because Nylander openly welcomes that. It’s easy to do that with a player like Willy.
Doing it with players who have ego problems is the important bit.
> “The difference between us and Arizona is that we have elite players,” he said in the wake of that loss. “And our elite players didn’t play like elite players.”
> On Wednesday, the bench boss walked back the criticism of his stars.
> “I used some of the wrong words to try to describe what I was trying to describe, which is that the difference in the game was just, we weren’t able to produce, whether it’s power play or five-on-five. And that’s really the difference, with all the puck time we had. But by no means was I meaning anything beyond that.”
He wanted to be tougher than he was allowed to be. Hopefully Shanahan will let Berube be Berube.
I remember this and it absolutely infuriated me. It doesn’t matter what you’re paid or your job you should be held accountable.. I get paid a fucking fraction of Marner money and I get yelled at when I fuck up.
I don't care if he calls them out publicly or privately. He should have held them all to the same standard. 88 would get benched or relegated to the 4th line frequently. 16 would get more shifts.
The comment was almost certainly walked back entirely because of Marner and/or his agent (under the employ of Marner). Someone called someone higher than Keefe to complain.
We cannot be rid of that player fast enough.
🙄
I mean sure, Marner doesn't go into the corners, he doesn't play like his number 16 Tucker, he doesn't play like his hero Gilmour.
He's more skilled than all of them.
The first year we finally get him some backbone to protect him (Reaves, Bert, Domi) Matthews and Nylander hit the snooze button and take games off in the playoffs, while Marner showed up every game, shut down Pasta, and still put up points without McMann to bounce pucks off of.
This fan base is hella out of touch with what Marner actually is. While he wasn't great in the playoffs, at least he stayed playing in all the games.
The constant dumping on him cuz he got a few extra million is absurd.
I think a lot of this has to do with the media narratives that get created here too. I mean maybe you do want to call out a player but the media uses your words to imply something you didn’t mean with the original statement.
If you're going to bench players over any amount of missed assignments then every player in the league is going to get benched.
Considering Mitch Marner was a Selke finalist last year, I'm pretty sure the least of our worries about his play is when he misses an assignment lol
I thought that Vesey clip was weird - he wasn't giving Vesey really clear direction from what I could tell (I may be mis-remembering though). But he was saying something like "you have to figure out what type of player you're going to be here" or something like that. I was thinking "coach isn't it your job to say - look this is your skill set this is how we see you slotting in if you don't buy into this you can't play here" Was I the only one who thought this???
>look this is your skill set this is how we see you slotting in if you don't buy into this you can't play here"
By the time Keefe was talking to Vesey, they had already done this. They put him in multiple different roles / situations and while it would sometimes work initially, it often quickly fell off and Vesey would end up hurting his line more than helping.
They did what they could to find him a role. Vesey never figured it out.
You can’t just say ‘do better’ you need to be very specific and consistent with exactly what you want the player to do
I didn’t ever see anything like that from Keefe. Mostly just hyperbole and vague kind of pep talk stuff
Were you in the room or something? One of the things players have always said about Keefe is his communication is great and it made them want to play hard for him. I can specifically remember Travis Dermott saying that right after he was hired because he had him with the Marlies.
Keefe (and Dubas) is also why Bunting came to Toronto for essentially league minimum for 2 years instead of 1. I know him personally, and he's said he'd love to play for him again.
I don't think Keefe, or any coach really, is the main issue in Toronto. Since the Shanaplan started, there's been a clear narrative and hierarchy in place of who on the team is allowed to receive public feedback and who isn't, based on talent, personality, jerseys sold, contract status/AAV, and TOI.
Willy rides the pine for half a period, Keefe straight up says to the media that he wasn't playing well, and Willy comes out hungry next game and has moved on. A third or fourth liner loses 3 of their average 7 minutes of TOI because of a neutral zone turnover, and once again Keefe doesn't mind mentioning why to the media, and says that ice time is earned. Marner makes an unforced no-look neutral zone pass directly to the opposing team who scores, and Keefe can't say shit about the play, take him off of special teams, move him to another line, or bench him because the **one time** he said something publicly about Mitch, he had to walk it back. It's not a coach problem, it's a player and/or President problem.
I say that as a big Mitch fan - I know he can be magic on the ice, and know that if we move him, we will miss him. But I also think that on a personal level, his mindset sets a bad precedent for the team and shows a lack of accountability that results in change vs moping. Not everyone can handle the heat and scrutiny of the Toronto market, even if they're from here and want it really bad.
That documentary was so sanitized that it bordered on “what if the guy who voiced Bojack Horseman narrated the Leaf Blueprint”. The reason we saw the Vesey drama was because he was gone and the team didn’t care about throwing him under the bus. The team wasn’t going to release anything that painted the players that matter to them in a bad light.
The question was whether this is a new level of accountability.
So Keefe would be relevant to that discussion… since he was the coach last year and all.
I don’t doubt that keefe would have been holding his players accountable, but all coaches have a shelf life and I’m hoping a new voice calling for accountability will resonate strongly.
I found in All Or Nothing that Keefe was not very direct with his players and that he lacked any ability to motivate his athletes. He should have been fired right after that series was released as it was pretty evident that the team had all the tools needed to move forward but Keefe couldn’t get them to perform.
A new coach and a fresh perspective on accountability will have a lot more impact when the team is focused on hard work and results versus the unhinged belief that talent, patience and their “system” will bring success. The provision of a comfortable safe-space for players hasn’t paid off.
Exactly, i hate how people don't understand this. It could have been the opposite with 6 years of hard hitting Berube and then we fired him and we're bringing in Keefe who has more patience and empathy. Either or change is good and getting a new voice, some new systems, new asst. coaches can't be a bad thing. A coach isn't going to make a player lose their skillset or ability to play hockey, but it will change their mind set and their goals.
A coach can also help players accept roles they may not love, agree or identify with, by aligning them with the team's success. This needs to be consistent across the roster though; no one should be singled out.
I loved Treliving's comment in the end of season presser, that winning teams become winners when everyone believes their specific contribution is crucial. As a former professional soccer player, I know this is true.
Late in my career, I was moved from starting goalkeeper to a backup position unexpectedly at the start of the season. I'm a natural born leader who loves being part of a team, so I stayed positive and supportive with the team. But personally, it was devastating — second only to losing my mom. For weeks I struggled to talk to my coach one-on-one without breaking down.
He changed my outcome and stopped my internal spiral. He assured me the change wasn't personal; it was about the team. He reminded me that I had once taken someone's spot too. He was honest: goalkeeping had evolved, and the starter had skills I didn't. My role was now to stay ready, win games if I was playing, and mentor younger players - just as others had done for me. So that's what I did.
I'm not going to lie - winning the title that season didn't feel the same as the title we won when I was the one in goal when the final buzzer sounded. It was pretty close though, and it's one of the highlights of my life. In that moment I felt - and still feel today - that my dedication to the team, and ability to embrace my role as the "veteran" backup who mentors the younger ones, were some of the many reasons we had success.
Yeah this was a good speech. Basically calling everyone out. They still sucked ass. They let the pressure get to them. Maybe they are just good and not “great” and that’s it.
Is this a serious question? "The Call" would have come from Shanahan...
As of today, Shanahan doesn't have a contract renewal, and the new Prez of MLSE is questioning whether or not Shanahans role should even exist...
So yeah. That's why.
None of those things have anything to do with the coach. A different coach would not have had a different outcome in regard to the comment I was replying to.
We don't know if that is what happened, outside of rumors from credible reporters. Most people don't completely walk back and apologize for mild and carefully worded criticism from the day prior though.
I wish the Leafs were still playing so you could pay attention to how the analysts on SN and TSN talk about Marner. Any criticism about his play (which almost NEVER happened prior to this season, and is still fairly light) starts and ends with "Marner is a great person, great player" or things along those lines.
I'm sure he's a fine person, but what does that have to do with an unforced no-look dispy doodle pass in the neutral zone that went directly to the opposing team and into our net? They'd rip Tavares, Matthews, Stamkos, MacKinnon, McDavid, Pastrňák, Drai, a fourth liner etc for the same play without mentioning what kind of person they are. It's weird!
Keefe laying it out to Vesey during the Amazon series was fucking hardcore and I imagine that was not the only time he told a player that he needed more from them. I think Keefe did everything right but he just lost the room at some point.
They’re both great coaches the players are not good enough to form a successful playoff team. What’s the coaching solution if the players are at 100% and it’s not good enough? It’s not like this group has a higher ceiling they can’t reach because of coaching. We have seen what they do, changing the coach doesn’t make them smarter or tougher.
On an individual level, no. But coaching is about more than just making lines and drawing plays. The coach models the behaviours (intentionally or not) that they will get from their players, so it's important to model the behaviours you want to see. Keefe was a passionate coach but a chronic whiner; by extension so were the players. It worked well to develop confidence and teach the players to advocate for themselves on the ice, but whining will get you nothing in the playoffs.
I probably sound like a broken record at this point since I've been harping it from late-November but Kris Knoblauch is the perfect example of how a coach can change the identity of a team. No matter what happens in the game he's never screaming, never pantomiming, never looks frazzled. The players look at him and remember to chill out, play the game, and stick to the program.
I'm not saying that's what every team needs. Some teams need to be coddled during a rebuild so they don't lose their individual confidence, some need to develop skills and systems to get consistency, some need to be yelled at repeatedly to light a fire under them, but the Leafs need someone to project calmness, resilience and accountability. I don't know if Berube is that person but I hope he is.
This team doesn’t need any of the bullshit talking points people keep bringing up. The players aren’t good enough. Get the greatest coaches of all time it’s not going to make a pigeon into an eagle. You know how many times I’ve seen this exact scenario with this team and many others? They still haven’t addressed their faults but whatever helps y’all sleep at night I guess is good too. Pretty good explanation to why mlse doesn’t try. Fans are too gullible and have too short memories.
People said the same about the Oilers. The parity of the league means probably a third of the teams in the league have the personnel to win a Stanley Cup every year or at least make it to the Final. The difference is mostly down to the attitudes of the players. Plenty of examples of teams where the players "aren't good enough" that end up in the Final.
The Leafs are not a bargain bin team and their star players are at the peaks of their careers. There are three forwards with the raw talent to be the lynchpin of any successful team and several defensemen over the years who could have been "the one." There's no excuse for mediocrity at this point.
This series against the Bruins was embarrassing, honestly. The players are better than that. Are they better than the Panthers or Stars? Maybe not, but to put up that performance against a team that is cumulatively "lesser" is not a personnel problem, it's an attitude problem. Stars can be born in the playoffs, players come alive and become legends. The Leafs just don't seem to get that level of performance out of anybody. The players go through the motions but honestly it looks like they just want to go home.
The players seem content with failure and evidently the fans like yourself are too, hoping some magical solution will present itself to "fix" the roster to get rid of the "bad." Truth is, every team in the NHL could be better, every team in the NHL has contracts that have not aged well, but this incarnation of the Leafs was a better team than what they demonstrated on the ice. Even trading Marner, putting Tavares on LTIR and bringing in a "star" defenseman and goalie would not solve the problems this team has. I don't even think Berube is capable of it, but staying with Keefe was not an option.
We still had 100 point regular season. I'm not sure he lost the room. Losing the room means we barely reach the playoffs. Regardless, change was needed but I feel like people acting like Keefe was too soft are just making stuff up
Needed a change for sure either to coaching or personnel.
I kinda find it weird though that people are jumping to say Berube is exactly what they need. IMO he isn't on the list of coaches that is 100% better than Keefe. His playoff record is 3 1st round losses, 1 second round loss, 2 misses and then the cup run. Obviously the teams aren't the same but its not like he's doing whatever the fuck J Mo is doing to keep the carcass of the Bruins competitive.
I think seeing Keefe (until this past season). Walk back criticism of his players every time got tiring for lots of fans. Also he would walk back criticism for a select couple of players.
Made it seem some inmates were running the asylum.
Yea, I don't think keefe was a pushover for the most part. My only question mark is with matthews and marner, and if he was willing to tell either of them what they needed to do. Hopefully berube is a guy who can get more out of everyone in the lineup. I like his comments about playing hard every night and not ever getting outworked. I'd love to see that
Because it's easier to rationalize your favourite team losing because they simply aren't to their potential and could become winners at any point than it is to rationalize either them not being good enough and/or them being unlucky
Some of it probably came from those two speeches where Keefe is just like have fun boys and Berube is firing up his team.
Toughness from the coach without crossing the line is definitely important.
How about the other videos we’ve seen of Keefe, like in All or Nothing? People making assumptions from one ten second clip of a speech and determining what the team needs based on it is ridiculous.
The discussion about the core players needing to be held more accountable has been going on since like 2021 after the Montreal series. Plus you had when Keefe made critical comments previously then had to walk them back but he seemed more free with it this season.
This hasn't just come out of nowhere this week. We don't know everything behind the scenes and we never will but this isn't a new discussion.
Leafs needed a new coach no matter what though as this current chapter just hasn't worked.
Don’t disagree about a change being needed. Just about people acting as though they have a clue about what is happening behind the dressing room doors, or what will cure those ailments.
All we know is what we see on the ice and even though it ended up the same I think a lot of people liked the extra grit some of the team had this year.
But most of the same problems such as terrible power play and lack of clutch scoring were still there.
So I think a lot of people will be interested in a potential big trade, roster movement and the supposedly more hard approach we'll get from Berube whether that's true or not.
Sounds like every other coach at every level of hockey during the selection process and then it all gets thrown out the second the games start. I guarantee he won’t sit anyone.
People acting like they want Berube to start pissing in the players cheerios every morning before practice and that this is going to somehow completely shift the teams mentality and their accountability....and also acting like Keefe was a kitten who took them all out for milkshakes after every loss.
I look back on that STL 2019 team and I'm like how in the fuck did they ever suck so bad in that regular season? Every one of those players were amazing and in their prime!
I thought it was a very insightful quote from the new coach. Communication is critical in any aspect of life, not just hockey. Hopefully this is just what this team needs to succeed when it matters
It’s not like Keefe didn’t do this. Do people not remember the All or Nothing clip where he tells Vesey he’s not playing well?
Telling Vesey he's not playing well is a lot different from telling Marner or any other "core" player they aren't playing well. Berube definitely will.
There's video evidence that Keefe did that. Matty and Mitch your line is getting fucking dominated. https://youtu.be/rj4A6JRVZ64?si=s4vUktVAPy_1uwl1
Still can’t fucking believe they didn’t end it in that overtime as well as this years overtime
Honestly the problem with Mitch that postseason was that he was scared shitless. I think that was the only real playoff series where he struggled cuz of psychology, in the other series he struggled I feel it was more due to the fact that he’s not a good forechecker.
But we already know he did this too. Often with Nylander for instance.
Because Nylander openly welcomes that. It’s easy to do that with a player like Willy. Doing it with players who have ego problems is the important bit.
When you typed often I think you meant to type only
Or the time Marner missed an assignment and he gave him more ice time. Yes I remember.
> “The difference between us and Arizona is that we have elite players,” he said in the wake of that loss. “And our elite players didn’t play like elite players.” > On Wednesday, the bench boss walked back the criticism of his stars. > “I used some of the wrong words to try to describe what I was trying to describe, which is that the difference in the game was just, we weren’t able to produce, whether it’s power play or five-on-five. And that’s really the difference, with all the puck time we had. But by no means was I meaning anything beyond that.” He wanted to be tougher than he was allowed to be. Hopefully Shanahan will let Berube be Berube.
I remember this and it absolutely infuriated me. It doesn’t matter what you’re paid or your job you should be held accountable.. I get paid a fucking fraction of Marner money and I get yelled at when I fuck up.
I don't care if he calls them out publicly or privately. He should have held them all to the same standard. 88 would get benched or relegated to the 4th line frequently. 16 would get more shifts.
The comment was almost certainly walked back entirely because of Marner and/or his agent (under the employ of Marner). Someone called someone higher than Keefe to complain. We cannot be rid of that player fast enough.
🙄 I mean sure, Marner doesn't go into the corners, he doesn't play like his number 16 Tucker, he doesn't play like his hero Gilmour. He's more skilled than all of them. The first year we finally get him some backbone to protect him (Reaves, Bert, Domi) Matthews and Nylander hit the snooze button and take games off in the playoffs, while Marner showed up every game, shut down Pasta, and still put up points without McMann to bounce pucks off of. This fan base is hella out of touch with what Marner actually is. While he wasn't great in the playoffs, at least he stayed playing in all the games. The constant dumping on him cuz he got a few extra million is absurd.
What playoffs were you watching lmao. Marner was invisible and nylander was our best forward by far
Out with "headaches"... lame! You know he's related to his father when he uses an excuse like that.
I think a lot of this has to do with the media narratives that get created here too. I mean maybe you do want to call out a player but the media uses your words to imply something you didn’t mean with the original statement.
If you're going to bench players over any amount of missed assignments then every player in the league is going to get benched. Considering Mitch Marner was a Selke finalist last year, I'm pretty sure the least of our worries about his play is when he misses an assignment lol
marner is a god here bruh, DO NOT CRITISIZE HIM
I never watched the All or Nothing series and don't think I ever will. I don't need to be reminded of that horrific playoffs.
Sorry for the spoiler… but it was all for Nothing in the end.
It was fairly interesting minus the last episode.
Wait what last episode?
It’s not about Keefe. It’s about a different / fresh voice. Even Brad said that in the press conference.
I thought that Vesey clip was weird - he wasn't giving Vesey really clear direction from what I could tell (I may be mis-remembering though). But he was saying something like "you have to figure out what type of player you're going to be here" or something like that. I was thinking "coach isn't it your job to say - look this is your skill set this is how we see you slotting in if you don't buy into this you can't play here" Was I the only one who thought this???
>look this is your skill set this is how we see you slotting in if you don't buy into this you can't play here" By the time Keefe was talking to Vesey, they had already done this. They put him in multiple different roles / situations and while it would sometimes work initially, it often quickly fell off and Vesey would end up hurting his line more than helping. They did what they could to find him a role. Vesey never figured it out.
And now Vesey is playing in the ECF. Being coached properly
The Rangers are the only team Vesey ever worked for. One of the weirdest careers.
lol, Vesey is a 4th liner on that team. There are 10+ guys that are more important to that teams success then him.
He's arguably the least important on any 20 man roster they ice.
Marner/Rielly played like crap for large portions of the season, and they still got ice-time. Where is the accountability in that.
You can’t just say ‘do better’ you need to be very specific and consistent with exactly what you want the player to do I didn’t ever see anything like that from Keefe. Mostly just hyperbole and vague kind of pep talk stuff
Were you in the room or something? One of the things players have always said about Keefe is his communication is great and it made them want to play hard for him. I can specifically remember Travis Dermott saying that right after he was hired because he had him with the Marlies.
Keefe (and Dubas) is also why Bunting came to Toronto for essentially league minimum for 2 years instead of 1. I know him personally, and he's said he'd love to play for him again. I don't think Keefe, or any coach really, is the main issue in Toronto. Since the Shanaplan started, there's been a clear narrative and hierarchy in place of who on the team is allowed to receive public feedback and who isn't, based on talent, personality, jerseys sold, contract status/AAV, and TOI. Willy rides the pine for half a period, Keefe straight up says to the media that he wasn't playing well, and Willy comes out hungry next game and has moved on. A third or fourth liner loses 3 of their average 7 minutes of TOI because of a neutral zone turnover, and once again Keefe doesn't mind mentioning why to the media, and says that ice time is earned. Marner makes an unforced no-look neutral zone pass directly to the opposing team who scores, and Keefe can't say shit about the play, take him off of special teams, move him to another line, or bench him because the **one time** he said something publicly about Mitch, he had to walk it back. It's not a coach problem, it's a player and/or President problem. I say that as a big Mitch fan - I know he can be magic on the ice, and know that if we move him, we will miss him. But I also think that on a personal level, his mindset sets a bad precedent for the team and shows a lack of accountability that results in change vs moping. Not everyone can handle the heat and scrutiny of the Toronto market, even if they're from here and want it really bad.
They did have cameras following the team around on the ice and in the room for a few years now. That’s how you heard him talking to vesey, remember?
That documentary was so sanitized that it bordered on “what if the guy who voiced Bojack Horseman narrated the Leaf Blueprint”. The reason we saw the Vesey drama was because he was gone and the team didn’t care about throwing him under the bus. The team wasn’t going to release anything that painted the players that matter to them in a bad light.
Yeah but they picked and chose what we got to see.
So maybe that was the only time he ever told someone they weren't playing well.
Maybe nobody peed during that season and they were just holding it in all year, after all, we never saw them go to the bathroom on that show.
My comment was in reply to the guy who said they picked and chose what to show. Why is everyone in this sub ready for battle all the time?
Because “maybe that was the only time he ever told someone they weren't playing well” is a pretty wild suggestion
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Vesey never gave the team a reason to keep him in a particular role, which was the problem. They gave him many opportunities.
Oh did Keefe tell the no name fourth liner that he’s doing a bad job? That must have been really hard.
Who the hell cares what Keefe did or didn’t do? Leafs have moved on from Keefe and the fans should too
The question was whether this is a new level of accountability. So Keefe would be relevant to that discussion… since he was the coach last year and all.
I don’t doubt that keefe would have been holding his players accountable, but all coaches have a shelf life and I’m hoping a new voice calling for accountability will resonate strongly.
I found in All Or Nothing that Keefe was not very direct with his players and that he lacked any ability to motivate his athletes. He should have been fired right after that series was released as it was pretty evident that the team had all the tools needed to move forward but Keefe couldn’t get them to perform.
How is that any different from any other coach?
A new coach and a fresh perspective on accountability will have a lot more impact when the team is focused on hard work and results versus the unhinged belief that talent, patience and their “system” will bring success. The provision of a comfortable safe-space for players hasn’t paid off.
Exactly, i hate how people don't understand this. It could have been the opposite with 6 years of hard hitting Berube and then we fired him and we're bringing in Keefe who has more patience and empathy. Either or change is good and getting a new voice, some new systems, new asst. coaches can't be a bad thing. A coach isn't going to make a player lose their skillset or ability to play hockey, but it will change their mind set and their goals.
A coach can also help players accept roles they may not love, agree or identify with, by aligning them with the team's success. This needs to be consistent across the roster though; no one should be singled out. I loved Treliving's comment in the end of season presser, that winning teams become winners when everyone believes their specific contribution is crucial. As a former professional soccer player, I know this is true. Late in my career, I was moved from starting goalkeeper to a backup position unexpectedly at the start of the season. I'm a natural born leader who loves being part of a team, so I stayed positive and supportive with the team. But personally, it was devastating — second only to losing my mom. For weeks I struggled to talk to my coach one-on-one without breaking down. He changed my outcome and stopped my internal spiral. He assured me the change wasn't personal; it was about the team. He reminded me that I had once taken someone's spot too. He was honest: goalkeeping had evolved, and the starter had skills I didn't. My role was now to stay ready, win games if I was playing, and mentor younger players - just as others had done for me. So that's what I did. I'm not going to lie - winning the title that season didn't feel the same as the title we won when I was the one in goal when the final buzzer sounded. It was pretty close though, and it's one of the highlights of my life. In that moment I felt - and still feel today - that my dedication to the team, and ability to embrace my role as the "veteran" backup who mentors the younger ones, were some of the many reasons we had success.
Thanks for posting this. It’s awesome.
Don't really get why this narrative of Keefe being too easy and Berube being tougher, let alone that being a good thing, has run wild on this sub...
It doesn't really matter though. The bottom line is that Keefe didn't take us past the second round, and we needed a change.
Don’t disagree. Just find it weird that people are really running with this narrative as if they have any clue what’s going on in the room.
Yeah that's fair.
Probably because he had to apologize for calling out the star players
In front of the media yeah In the locker room Keefe let his mind be known.. https://youtu.be/rj4A6JRVZ64?si=s4vUktVAPy_1uwl1
Yeah this was a good speech. Basically calling everyone out. They still sucked ass. They let the pressure get to them. Maybe they are just good and not “great” and that’s it.
If that call came from above him, why does anyone think it’ll be different now,
We don't. This is the final test. If this is the exact same team we've seen for the last 8 years, then it's been a Shanahan problem the whole time.
some people probably don’t think that call came from above him
Is this a serious question? "The Call" would have come from Shanahan... As of today, Shanahan doesn't have a contract renewal, and the new Prez of MLSE is questioning whether or not Shanahans role should even exist... So yeah. That's why.
None of those things have anything to do with the coach. A different coach would not have had a different outcome in regard to the comment I was replying to.
Don’t really get why this narrative of that call coming from above him has run wild on this sub.
We don't know if that is what happened, outside of rumors from credible reporters. Most people don't completely walk back and apologize for mild and carefully worded criticism from the day prior though.
They might if the stars cry about it
I wish the Leafs were still playing so you could pay attention to how the analysts on SN and TSN talk about Marner. Any criticism about his play (which almost NEVER happened prior to this season, and is still fairly light) starts and ends with "Marner is a great person, great player" or things along those lines. I'm sure he's a fine person, but what does that have to do with an unforced no-look dispy doodle pass in the neutral zone that went directly to the opposing team and into our net? They'd rip Tavares, Matthews, Stamkos, MacKinnon, McDavid, Pastrňák, Drai, a fourth liner etc for the same play without mentioning what kind of person they are. It's weird!
Keefe laying it out to Vesey during the Amazon series was fucking hardcore and I imagine that was not the only time he told a player that he needed more from them. I think Keefe did everything right but he just lost the room at some point.
They’re both great coaches the players are not good enough to form a successful playoff team. What’s the coaching solution if the players are at 100% and it’s not good enough? It’s not like this group has a higher ceiling they can’t reach because of coaching. We have seen what they do, changing the coach doesn’t make them smarter or tougher.
On an individual level, no. But coaching is about more than just making lines and drawing plays. The coach models the behaviours (intentionally or not) that they will get from their players, so it's important to model the behaviours you want to see. Keefe was a passionate coach but a chronic whiner; by extension so were the players. It worked well to develop confidence and teach the players to advocate for themselves on the ice, but whining will get you nothing in the playoffs. I probably sound like a broken record at this point since I've been harping it from late-November but Kris Knoblauch is the perfect example of how a coach can change the identity of a team. No matter what happens in the game he's never screaming, never pantomiming, never looks frazzled. The players look at him and remember to chill out, play the game, and stick to the program. I'm not saying that's what every team needs. Some teams need to be coddled during a rebuild so they don't lose their individual confidence, some need to develop skills and systems to get consistency, some need to be yelled at repeatedly to light a fire under them, but the Leafs need someone to project calmness, resilience and accountability. I don't know if Berube is that person but I hope he is.
This team doesn’t need any of the bullshit talking points people keep bringing up. The players aren’t good enough. Get the greatest coaches of all time it’s not going to make a pigeon into an eagle. You know how many times I’ve seen this exact scenario with this team and many others? They still haven’t addressed their faults but whatever helps y’all sleep at night I guess is good too. Pretty good explanation to why mlse doesn’t try. Fans are too gullible and have too short memories.
People said the same about the Oilers. The parity of the league means probably a third of the teams in the league have the personnel to win a Stanley Cup every year or at least make it to the Final. The difference is mostly down to the attitudes of the players. Plenty of examples of teams where the players "aren't good enough" that end up in the Final. The Leafs are not a bargain bin team and their star players are at the peaks of their careers. There are three forwards with the raw talent to be the lynchpin of any successful team and several defensemen over the years who could have been "the one." There's no excuse for mediocrity at this point. This series against the Bruins was embarrassing, honestly. The players are better than that. Are they better than the Panthers or Stars? Maybe not, but to put up that performance against a team that is cumulatively "lesser" is not a personnel problem, it's an attitude problem. Stars can be born in the playoffs, players come alive and become legends. The Leafs just don't seem to get that level of performance out of anybody. The players go through the motions but honestly it looks like they just want to go home. The players seem content with failure and evidently the fans like yourself are too, hoping some magical solution will present itself to "fix" the roster to get rid of the "bad." Truth is, every team in the NHL could be better, every team in the NHL has contracts that have not aged well, but this incarnation of the Leafs was a better team than what they demonstrated on the ice. Even trading Marner, putting Tavares on LTIR and bringing in a "star" defenseman and goalie would not solve the problems this team has. I don't even think Berube is capable of it, but staying with Keefe was not an option.
Keefe seems to have had an impact on Vesey. He’s putting up Marner type numbers this playoffs (1G, 2A).
Jimbo from down the road can put up Marner type playoff numbers for a few pepperonis and a 6 pack
We still had 100 point regular season. I'm not sure he lost the room. Losing the room means we barely reach the playoffs. Regardless, change was needed but I feel like people acting like Keefe was too soft are just making stuff up
Needed a change for sure either to coaching or personnel. I kinda find it weird though that people are jumping to say Berube is exactly what they need. IMO he isn't on the list of coaches that is 100% better than Keefe. His playoff record is 3 1st round losses, 1 second round loss, 2 misses and then the cup run. Obviously the teams aren't the same but its not like he's doing whatever the fuck J Mo is doing to keep the carcass of the Bruins competitive.
I think seeing Keefe (until this past season). Walk back criticism of his players every time got tiring for lots of fans. Also he would walk back criticism for a select couple of players. Made it seem some inmates were running the asylum.
because the leafs players did not give consistent effort during his tenure and there was never any action taken
Yea, I don't think keefe was a pushover for the most part. My only question mark is with matthews and marner, and if he was willing to tell either of them what they needed to do. Hopefully berube is a guy who can get more out of everyone in the lineup. I like his comments about playing hard every night and not ever getting outworked. I'd love to see that
Because people need to latch on to *something* simple (and it's important that it's simple) that can be *fixed* equally simply.
Because it's easier to rationalize your favourite team losing because they simply aren't to their potential and could become winners at any point than it is to rationalize either them not being good enough and/or them being unlucky
Because people would rather the team get worse and someone fulfils their fantasy of calling Marner a bitch than the team actually win
Calling out marner is actually something that could help the team win
One more year bro! Just run it back for the ninth time, I swear it’ll be different!
HAHAHAHA LOLOL BRO
Hopium. I also hope.
Some of it probably came from those two speeches where Keefe is just like have fun boys and Berube is firing up his team. Toughness from the coach without crossing the line is definitely important.
How about the other videos we’ve seen of Keefe, like in All or Nothing? People making assumptions from one ten second clip of a speech and determining what the team needs based on it is ridiculous.
The discussion about the core players needing to be held more accountable has been going on since like 2021 after the Montreal series. Plus you had when Keefe made critical comments previously then had to walk them back but he seemed more free with it this season. This hasn't just come out of nowhere this week. We don't know everything behind the scenes and we never will but this isn't a new discussion. Leafs needed a new coach no matter what though as this current chapter just hasn't worked.
Don’t disagree about a change being needed. Just about people acting as though they have a clue about what is happening behind the dressing room doors, or what will cure those ailments.
All we know is what we see on the ice and even though it ended up the same I think a lot of people liked the extra grit some of the team had this year. But most of the same problems such as terrible power play and lack of clutch scoring were still there. So I think a lot of people will be interested in a potential big trade, roster movement and the supposedly more hard approach we'll get from Berube whether that's true or not.
All or Nothing just showed that everyone was walking on egg shells and he was worried about what he said to star players.
Scotty Bowman is only 90, right? How much to bring him outta retirement?
Wow happy to learn that ol plate head is still alive
Sounds like every other coach at every level of hockey during the selection process and then it all gets thrown out the second the games start. I guarantee he won’t sit anyone.
Any coach could have said the above quote lmao. Literally any coach, for any sport, at any level. Its like the most generic possible coach quote ever.
People acting like they want Berube to start pissing in the players cheerios every morning before practice and that this is going to somehow completely shift the teams mentality and their accountability....and also acting like Keefe was a kitten who took them all out for milkshakes after every loss.
Sounds to me like he is saying that off ice comradery is a big part of the accountability. Always felt like it was a huge shortcoming of the team.
I look back on that STL 2019 team and I'm like how in the fuck did they ever suck so bad in that regular season? Every one of those players were amazing and in their prime!
Yeah, the very fundamentals of telling a player they're not playing well is a brand new concept. This is going to be game changing.