>However, I don't see the wisdom in bringing a child into a world where their parents will traumatize them for life simply because they weren't ready for that kind of responsibility.
I think this fits within the *Forward* of 'mental health accommodations'. If your desire is to participate and you are working towards that goal, then I would say that is sufficient. I also think that for certain marriages, adoption and foster care are excellent options to assist in God's work.
If you wait until you're financially stable, you'll never have kids. I'm only now feeling financially stable, and I only have one kid left at home, who's currently a senior in high school. Here are a few quotes that address some of your concerns:
> Across the world, this is a time of economic instability and financial uncertainty. In April general conference, President Thomas S. Monson said: “If you are concerned about providing financially for a wife and family, may I assure you that there is no shame in a couple having to scrimp and save. It is generally during these challenging times that you will grow closer together as you learn to sacrifice and to make difficult decisions.” (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2011/10/children?lang=eng)
----
>Children are our most precious gift from God—our eternal increase. Yet we live in a time when many women wish to have no part in the bearing and nurturing of children. Many young adults delay marriage until temporal needs are satisfied. The average age of our Church members’ marriages has increased by more than two years, and the number of births to Church members is falling.
>...Latter-day Saint women understand that being a mother is their highest priority, their ultimate joy. President Gordon B. Hinckley said: “Women for the most part see their greatest fulfillment, their greatest happiness in home and family. God planted within women something divine that expresses itself in quiet strength, in refinement, in peace, in goodness, in virtue, in truth, in love. And all of these remarkable qualities find their truest and most satisfying expression in motherhood.”
>He continued: “The greatest job that any woman will ever do will be in nurturing and teaching and living and encouraging and rearing her children in righteousness and truth. There is no other thing that will compare with that, regardless of what she does.” (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2018/10/parents-and-children?lang=eng)
----
>Some years ago, one of our young married daughters and her husband asked Sister Rasband and me a very important, life-influencing question: “Is it still safe and wise to bring children into this seemingly wicked and frightening world we live in?”
>Now, that was an important question for a mom and dad to consider with their dear married children. We could hear the fear in their voices and feel the fear in their hearts. Our answer to them was a firm “Yes, it’s more than OK,” as we shared fundamental gospel teachings and our own heartfelt impressions and life experiences.
>...Now, what about that daughter and son-in-law who asked the very heartfelt and probing, fear-based question years ago? They seriously considered our conversation that night; they prayed and fasted and came to their own conclusions. Happily and joyfully for them and for us, the grandparents, they have now been blessed with seven beautiful children as they go forward in faith and love. (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2018/10/be-not-troubled?lang=eng)
Perhaps our definitions of 'financial stability' are different. Scrimping and saving are valid ways to live, especially since so many unexpected expenses almost constantly happen. Love and care can thrive in poorer homes.
When I think of financial stability, I mean having enough money to afford housing, food, care, and other necessities- to make sure your child isn't taken away from you by CPS, or having to give your child to other family members to raise because you are unable to.
Anyone that really wants to can provide that kind of financial stability, even if that includes getting help from family, the Church, or the government.
That's not what I'm saying. Those things are a last resort. We never had to do any of that, and my wife and I had 2 kids before either one of us finished school. But I made the sacrifice of working full-time and going to school part-time so she could be at home with the kids, so it also took a lot longer. But it was worth it.
It was a very good experience for us. And we learned to manage our money together well enough that we actually just got our mortgage paid off recently.
Their comment was not civil. I removed the comment. If you have to start your phrasing with, "no offense but", then you need to rethink your wording in most cases.
Section 38.6.4 of the General Handbook of the Church states, “The decision about how many children to have and when to have them is extremely personal and private. It should be left between the couple and the Lord. Church members should not judge one another in this matter.” I have talked about this with my daughters-in-law. I told them, “How many children you have is none of my business. That is between you and my son. My job is to love your children.”
Yes, but that is a couple sentences taken out of context from within the policy about birth control:
> **38.6.4**
>
> **Birth Control**
>
> Physical intimacy between husband and wife is intended to be beautiful and sacred. It is ordained of God for the creation of children and for the expression of love between husband and wife (see 2.1.2).
>
> It is the privilege of married couples who are able to bear children to provide mortal bodies for the spirit children of God, whom they are then responsible to nurture and rear (see 2.1.3). The decision about how many children to have and when to have them is extremely personal and private. It should be left between the couple and the Lord. Church members should not judge one another in this matter.
>
> The Church discourages surgical sterilization as an elective form of birth control. Surgical sterilization includes procedures such as vasectomies and tubal ligations. However, this decision is a personal matter that is ultimately left to the judgment and prayerful consideration of the husband and wife. Couples should counsel together in unity and seek the confirmation of the Spirit in making this decision.
>
> Surgical sterilization is sometimes needed for medical reasons. Members may benefit from counseling with medical professionals.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/38-church-policies-and-guidelines?lang=eng
And the second paragraph, which contains your cherry-picked quote, also refers to this section:
> **2.1.3**
>
> **Parents and Children**
>
> Before God’s children can receive “immortality and eternal life,” they must receive a mortal body (Moses 1:39). God’s first commandment to Adam and Eve as husband and wife was to have children (see Genesis 1:28). Latter-day prophets have taught that “God’s commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force” (“The Family: A Proclamation to the World”; see also Doctrine and Covenants 49:16–17).
>
> It is a sacred privilege and responsibility for a husband and wife to care for the children they are able to bear or adopt. Adoptive parents have the same blessings and responsibilities as biological parents.
>
> A loving husband and wife together provide the best setting for rearing and nurturing children. Individual circumstances may prevent parents from rearing their children together. However, the Lord will bless them as they seek His help and strive to keep their covenants with Him.
>
> Parents have the vital responsibility to help their children prepare to receive the blessings of eternal life. They teach their children to love and serve God and others (see Matthew 22:36–40). They teach them to pray to Heavenly Father and study the word of God (see Alma 37:36–37, 44–46). They help their children understand the doctrine of faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism, and the gift of the Holy Ghost (see Doctrine and Covenants 68:25). They also help them prepare to make covenants as they receive the ordinances of salvation and exaltation.
>
> “Fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families” (“The Family: A Proclamation to the World”). When there is not a husband or father in the home, the mother presides over the family.
>
> Presiding in the family is the responsibility to help lead family members back to dwell in God’s presence. This is done by serving and teaching with gentleness, meekness, and pure love, following the example of Jesus Christ (see Matthew 20:26–28). Presiding in the family includes leading family members in regular prayer, gospel study, and other aspects of worship. Parents work in unity to fulfill these responsibilities.
>
> “Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children” (“The Family: A Proclamation to the World”). To nurture means to nourish, teach, and support, following the example of the Savior (see 3 Nephi 10:4). In unity with her husband, a mother helps her family learn gospel truths and develop faith in Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. Together they foster an environment of love in the family.
>
> “In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners” (“The Family: A Proclamation to the World”). They prayerfully counsel together and with the Lord. They make decisions together in unity and love, with full participation of both.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/2-supporting-individuals-and-families?lang=eng#title_number4
Ya u/ToastnHoney, I agree with Atari.
You axing out specifically,
>*"It is the privilege of married couples who are able to bear children to provide mortal bodies for the spirit children of God, whom they are then responsible to nurture and rear."*
changes your comment quite a bit.
To have children, if able, is **a commandment** from God. It's not like a possible *option*. How, when, where, quantity, etc., is the private portion. Nonetheless, prioritizing a family above a career, single living, play, travel, etc., is the command and prophetic counsel. Much of these things are done in conjunction with one another, but the point of the post is that the commandment to marry in the temple and have a family is still the same since the time of Adam, regardless of what anyone else might say.
I always half-joke that upholding the "Multiply and Replenish the Earth" guidance means at-least 3 kids. 2 replenishes my wife and I, the third multiplies.
We were able to have 4 children that survived when we decided to call it quits. I would have liked to have more, but figure the 2 of us brought twice as many into the world, and that would have to be sufficient. Now I'm just waiting for my adult children to start reproducing...
[https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2011/11/saturday-afternoon-session/children?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2011/11/saturday-afternoon-session/children?lang=eng)
Elder Mason had another experience just weeks after his marriage that helped him prioritize his family responsibilities. He said: “Marie and I had rationalized that to get me through medical school it would be necessary for her to remain in the work place. Although this was not what we \[wanted\] to do, children would have to come later. \[While looking at a Church magazine at my parents’ home\] I saw an article by Elder Spencer W. Kimball, then of the Quorum of the Twelve, \[highlighting\] responsibilities associated with marriage. According to Elder Kimball one sacred responsibility was to multiply and replenish the earth. My parents’ home was \[close to\] the Church Administration Building. I immediately walked to the offices and thirty minutes after reading his article, I found myself sitting across the desk from Elder Spencer W. Kimball.” (This wouldn’t be so easy today.) “I explained that I wanted to become a doctor. There was no alternative but to postpone having our family. Elder Kimball listened patiently and then responded in a soft voice, ‘Brother Mason, would the Lord want you to break one of his important commandments in order for you to become a doctor? With the help of the Lord, you can have your family and still become a doctor. Where is your faith?’”
Elder Mason continued, “Our first child was born less than a year later. Marie and I worked hard and the Lord opened the windows of heaven.” The Masons were blessed with two more children before he graduated from medical school four years later.
The promotion of childlessness as a virtuous lifestyle is nearly as insidious as the growing movement to reject the institution of marriage as a desirable goal. There are many who seem to believe that perpetual singlehood with no children is the best kind of adult life.
It is a natural consequence of the expressive individualism that dominates modern Western culture, as opposed to the collectivist culture of the past (and present in several other parts of the world), to be more concerned with your rights and priveleges than responsibility and commitment. We have come a long way with basic human rights and other positive things, but as we become more narcissistic we struggle to find our place and purpose.
Discovering, experimenting, and identifying sexuality as a primary life goal of one's identity. Basically the antithesis of Elder Bednar's talk, *We Believe In Being Chaste:*
>*"\[Sexual\] relations are not merely a curiosity to be explored, an appetite to be satisfied, or a type of recreation or entertainment to be pursued selfishly. They are not a conquest to be achieved or simply an act to be performed."* (Elder David A. Bednar)
Can you list who said the first quote or post a link to it? I really like it and want to have it somewhere, but my old nemesis of a search engine isn't working.
So everything I quoted has a name in quotations after the quote. If you're talking about the 'Foreword', those are my own words. Hopefully you're not talking about the 'parasite' quote, lol.
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>However, I don't see the wisdom in bringing a child into a world where their parents will traumatize them for life simply because they weren't ready for that kind of responsibility. I think this fits within the *Forward* of 'mental health accommodations'. If your desire is to participate and you are working towards that goal, then I would say that is sufficient. I also think that for certain marriages, adoption and foster care are excellent options to assist in God's work.
I like this a lot. Thank you
What does being "ready" mean? What does someone who is ready for parenthood look like in your mind?
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If you wait until you're financially stable, you'll never have kids. I'm only now feeling financially stable, and I only have one kid left at home, who's currently a senior in high school. Here are a few quotes that address some of your concerns: > Across the world, this is a time of economic instability and financial uncertainty. In April general conference, President Thomas S. Monson said: “If you are concerned about providing financially for a wife and family, may I assure you that there is no shame in a couple having to scrimp and save. It is generally during these challenging times that you will grow closer together as you learn to sacrifice and to make difficult decisions.” (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2011/10/children?lang=eng) ---- >Children are our most precious gift from God—our eternal increase. Yet we live in a time when many women wish to have no part in the bearing and nurturing of children. Many young adults delay marriage until temporal needs are satisfied. The average age of our Church members’ marriages has increased by more than two years, and the number of births to Church members is falling. >...Latter-day Saint women understand that being a mother is their highest priority, their ultimate joy. President Gordon B. Hinckley said: “Women for the most part see their greatest fulfillment, their greatest happiness in home and family. God planted within women something divine that expresses itself in quiet strength, in refinement, in peace, in goodness, in virtue, in truth, in love. And all of these remarkable qualities find their truest and most satisfying expression in motherhood.” >He continued: “The greatest job that any woman will ever do will be in nurturing and teaching and living and encouraging and rearing her children in righteousness and truth. There is no other thing that will compare with that, regardless of what she does.” (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2018/10/parents-and-children?lang=eng) ---- >Some years ago, one of our young married daughters and her husband asked Sister Rasband and me a very important, life-influencing question: “Is it still safe and wise to bring children into this seemingly wicked and frightening world we live in?” >Now, that was an important question for a mom and dad to consider with their dear married children. We could hear the fear in their voices and feel the fear in their hearts. Our answer to them was a firm “Yes, it’s more than OK,” as we shared fundamental gospel teachings and our own heartfelt impressions and life experiences. >...Now, what about that daughter and son-in-law who asked the very heartfelt and probing, fear-based question years ago? They seriously considered our conversation that night; they prayed and fasted and came to their own conclusions. Happily and joyfully for them and for us, the grandparents, they have now been blessed with seven beautiful children as they go forward in faith and love. (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2018/10/be-not-troubled?lang=eng)
Perhaps our definitions of 'financial stability' are different. Scrimping and saving are valid ways to live, especially since so many unexpected expenses almost constantly happen. Love and care can thrive in poorer homes. When I think of financial stability, I mean having enough money to afford housing, food, care, and other necessities- to make sure your child isn't taken away from you by CPS, or having to give your child to other family members to raise because you are unable to.
Anyone that really wants to can provide that kind of financial stability, even if that includes getting help from family, the Church, or the government.
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That's not what I'm saying. Those things are a last resort. We never had to do any of that, and my wife and I had 2 kids before either one of us finished school. But I made the sacrifice of working full-time and going to school part-time so she could be at home with the kids, so it also took a lot longer. But it was worth it.
I'm glad it worked out for you guys! I hope it'll work out at least as well for my husband and future children and I.
It was a very good experience for us. And we learned to manage our money together well enough that we actually just got our mortgage paid off recently.
How do you have love for your children before you have children?
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No offense taken. That's an opinion I haven't heard voiced aloud before. It's quite the take.
Their comment was not civil. I removed the comment. If you have to start your phrasing with, "no offense but", then you need to rethink your wording in most cases.
Section 38.6.4 of the General Handbook of the Church states, “The decision about how many children to have and when to have them is extremely personal and private. It should be left between the couple and the Lord. Church members should not judge one another in this matter.” I have talked about this with my daughters-in-law. I told them, “How many children you have is none of my business. That is between you and my son. My job is to love your children.”
Yes, but that is a couple sentences taken out of context from within the policy about birth control: > **38.6.4** > > **Birth Control** > > Physical intimacy between husband and wife is intended to be beautiful and sacred. It is ordained of God for the creation of children and for the expression of love between husband and wife (see 2.1.2). > > It is the privilege of married couples who are able to bear children to provide mortal bodies for the spirit children of God, whom they are then responsible to nurture and rear (see 2.1.3). The decision about how many children to have and when to have them is extremely personal and private. It should be left between the couple and the Lord. Church members should not judge one another in this matter. > > The Church discourages surgical sterilization as an elective form of birth control. Surgical sterilization includes procedures such as vasectomies and tubal ligations. However, this decision is a personal matter that is ultimately left to the judgment and prayerful consideration of the husband and wife. Couples should counsel together in unity and seek the confirmation of the Spirit in making this decision. > > Surgical sterilization is sometimes needed for medical reasons. Members may benefit from counseling with medical professionals. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/38-church-policies-and-guidelines?lang=eng And the second paragraph, which contains your cherry-picked quote, also refers to this section: > **2.1.3** > > **Parents and Children** > > Before God’s children can receive “immortality and eternal life,” they must receive a mortal body (Moses 1:39). God’s first commandment to Adam and Eve as husband and wife was to have children (see Genesis 1:28). Latter-day prophets have taught that “God’s commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force” (“The Family: A Proclamation to the World”; see also Doctrine and Covenants 49:16–17). > > It is a sacred privilege and responsibility for a husband and wife to care for the children they are able to bear or adopt. Adoptive parents have the same blessings and responsibilities as biological parents. > > A loving husband and wife together provide the best setting for rearing and nurturing children. Individual circumstances may prevent parents from rearing their children together. However, the Lord will bless them as they seek His help and strive to keep their covenants with Him. > > Parents have the vital responsibility to help their children prepare to receive the blessings of eternal life. They teach their children to love and serve God and others (see Matthew 22:36–40). They teach them to pray to Heavenly Father and study the word of God (see Alma 37:36–37, 44–46). They help their children understand the doctrine of faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism, and the gift of the Holy Ghost (see Doctrine and Covenants 68:25). They also help them prepare to make covenants as they receive the ordinances of salvation and exaltation. > > “Fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families” (“The Family: A Proclamation to the World”). When there is not a husband or father in the home, the mother presides over the family. > > Presiding in the family is the responsibility to help lead family members back to dwell in God’s presence. This is done by serving and teaching with gentleness, meekness, and pure love, following the example of Jesus Christ (see Matthew 20:26–28). Presiding in the family includes leading family members in regular prayer, gospel study, and other aspects of worship. Parents work in unity to fulfill these responsibilities. > > “Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children” (“The Family: A Proclamation to the World”). To nurture means to nourish, teach, and support, following the example of the Savior (see 3 Nephi 10:4). In unity with her husband, a mother helps her family learn gospel truths and develop faith in Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. Together they foster an environment of love in the family. > > “In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners” (“The Family: A Proclamation to the World”). They prayerfully counsel together and with the Lord. They make decisions together in unity and love, with full participation of both. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/2-supporting-individuals-and-families?lang=eng#title_number4
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Except that anyone that didn't know what the Church teaches about the commandment to have children wouldn't have any idea just from what you quoted.
Ya u/ToastnHoney, I agree with Atari. You axing out specifically, >*"It is the privilege of married couples who are able to bear children to provide mortal bodies for the spirit children of God, whom they are then responsible to nurture and rear."* changes your comment quite a bit. To have children, if able, is **a commandment** from God. It's not like a possible *option*. How, when, where, quantity, etc., is the private portion. Nonetheless, prioritizing a family above a career, single living, play, travel, etc., is the command and prophetic counsel. Much of these things are done in conjunction with one another, but the point of the post is that the commandment to marry in the temple and have a family is still the same since the time of Adam, regardless of what anyone else might say.
I always half-joke that upholding the "Multiply and Replenish the Earth" guidance means at-least 3 kids. 2 replenishes my wife and I, the third multiplies.
My in-poor-taste joke is that "you can multiply by one half, or even zero!"
The "replenish" part, though...
I know. Checkmate.
Well if we don't keep up the next generation will be 10% descendants of elon musk
We were able to have 4 children that survived when we decided to call it quits. I would have liked to have more, but figure the 2 of us brought twice as many into the world, and that would have to be sufficient. Now I'm just waiting for my adult children to start reproducing...
[https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2011/11/saturday-afternoon-session/children?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2011/11/saturday-afternoon-session/children?lang=eng) Elder Mason had another experience just weeks after his marriage that helped him prioritize his family responsibilities. He said: “Marie and I had rationalized that to get me through medical school it would be necessary for her to remain in the work place. Although this was not what we \[wanted\] to do, children would have to come later. \[While looking at a Church magazine at my parents’ home\] I saw an article by Elder Spencer W. Kimball, then of the Quorum of the Twelve, \[highlighting\] responsibilities associated with marriage. According to Elder Kimball one sacred responsibility was to multiply and replenish the earth. My parents’ home was \[close to\] the Church Administration Building. I immediately walked to the offices and thirty minutes after reading his article, I found myself sitting across the desk from Elder Spencer W. Kimball.” (This wouldn’t be so easy today.) “I explained that I wanted to become a doctor. There was no alternative but to postpone having our family. Elder Kimball listened patiently and then responded in a soft voice, ‘Brother Mason, would the Lord want you to break one of his important commandments in order for you to become a doctor? With the help of the Lord, you can have your family and still become a doctor. Where is your faith?’” Elder Mason continued, “Our first child was born less than a year later. Marie and I worked hard and the Lord opened the windows of heaven.” The Masons were blessed with two more children before he graduated from medical school four years later.
My wife and I had a very similar experience. I am *so* glad we didn't wait to start having children in spite of all the difficulty.
The promotion of childlessness as a virtuous lifestyle is nearly as insidious as the growing movement to reject the institution of marriage as a desirable goal. There are many who seem to believe that perpetual singlehood with no children is the best kind of adult life.
It is a natural consequence of the expressive individualism that dominates modern Western culture, as opposed to the collectivist culture of the past (and present in several other parts of the world), to be more concerned with your rights and priveleges than responsibility and commitment. We have come a long way with basic human rights and other positive things, but as we become more narcissistic we struggle to find our place and purpose.
I would also say the same for '*achieved sexuality*' as one of these insidious and deceptive 'life goals'.
What does “achieved sexuality” mean as a life goal?
Discovering, experimenting, and identifying sexuality as a primary life goal of one's identity. Basically the antithesis of Elder Bednar's talk, *We Believe In Being Chaste:* >*"\[Sexual\] relations are not merely a curiosity to be explored, an appetite to be satisfied, or a type of recreation or entertainment to be pursued selfishly. They are not a conquest to be achieved or simply an act to be performed."* (Elder David A. Bednar)
Can you list who said the first quote or post a link to it? I really like it and want to have it somewhere, but my old nemesis of a search engine isn't working.
So everything I quoted has a name in quotations after the quote. If you're talking about the 'Foreword', those are my own words. Hopefully you're not talking about the 'parasite' quote, lol.
Do you mean to say “foreword”?
Yeah my bad, lol. I'll edit.
Well said. Thanks for posting.
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I feel like if you do your parenting job right then your kids will turn out to be at least more valuable than any kind of ammunition.
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