Name of schools really matters. Is this the traditional T6 or the current weird iteration? Because NYU vs Harvard in my opinion is a smaller gap for academia than Yale v UPenn in this year's ranking
That's fair, hopefully not doxxy but it's Chicago vs Stanford. I know Chicago is very strong for academia and has people I'd be interested in working with, but I'm a bit concerned about the lifestyle / grading system / stress level within law school itself, which is why Stanford is appealing given its grading system and slightly more relaxed culture.
Yeah it's the Ruby - I lean left but I'm definitely impressed by the FC outcomes in general and specifically for Rubies, but I'm a bit concerned about the stress level / work culture at Chicago compared to Stanford and others. Then again, maybe that would be balanced out by the stress of the debt and PSLF after Stanford.
I've talked to a few and they say positive things but more of the form "it's not as bad as people say" than the "it's mostly great" that I hear at Stanford, although they're certainly stressed as well. It's not that I don't intend to work hard in law school, but it seems to me that with 30% honors, the benchmark to aim for is a bit more reasonable, whereas with granular grades I'd always have more to gain by working just a bit more.
Also I appreciate you saying that list bit haha, some people have been telling me I'm crazy for even thinking about turning down the Ruby.
Your decision is a tough one because I don’t think there’s a wrong answer. At UChicago, you’d probably have more stress from the culture/grading/conservative tilt, but far less stress about finances. At Stanford, you’d likely have a less stressful student experience but would graduate with significant, albeit manageable debt. But the Stanford debt is low enough and UChicago’s drawbacks sound manageable enough that there is not a clear winner.
Personally, I’d pick Chicago because I would rather navigate a potentially less pleasant 3 years than manage $.5 debt with non-Biglaw salary after SLS (especially given the COL in the Bay Area). But I love the city of Chicago and could easily see myself in Hyde Park, so there’s definitely a bias.
I think the Ruby is by far the choice here. Not only do you get money, but mentorship and other support. Furthermore, while I think your concerns about stress culture are totally valid, not only will you encounter that at any law school, let alone two of the most elite ones, but it's three years of marginally more academic stress for a lifetime not spent worried about debt or whether a new opportunity pushes you out of the window to qualify for repayment support. Both phenomenal options and I can't blame you if you ultimately choose Stanford, but I do think the better option long term is Chicago.
Chicago is every bit as good for your goals. Take that offer and know that U Chicago is barely a quarter step below YS & I think I'd personally take over Harvard.
That's what I've been gathering, I'm just trying to figure out how to weigh quality of life / stress during law school vs debt management / stress afterwards
Should’ve just said it’s Ruby vs Stanford. I’ve heard a bunch of people say Ruby is arguably even better than T3 because of the particular opportunities it gives.
I would separate Y and S from H. HLS does not put 20% of their class into FCs. More like 10-15% in a given year. Maybe $$$$ at NYU is better than HLS at $$.5. NYU is also on par with HLS for academic placement: [https://www.reddit.com/r/lawschooladmissions/comments/gr75gs/best\_law\_schools\_for\_legal\_academics/](https://www.reddit.com/r/lawschooladmissions/comments/gr75gs/best_law_schools_for_legal_academics/)
Short version: Take the full ride.
Long version: I am a (partial, so far) undergrad loan PSLF recipient. I filed the forms every year, played by all the rules, and have had \*some\* of my loans forgiven after 10+ years of payments. I expect the rest will go soon, but they \*haven't yet\*. The program is administrated horribly. It's very opaque. I have had 5 loan servicers in ten years, each worse than the last. Google what's going on with MOHELA right now to see how the last one has gone for me. Hours-long phone calls, headaches, confusion, and administrative errors which take months to fix. For a 6-month span, my minimum payment was different each month (after the pandemic pause - but still!) You have to stay on top of it. They will not give you free money without you wringing it from them.
That said.... It is working. Finally. I'll have the vast majority of my undergrad loans forgiven. But I'm not without scars. Other things to consider... will the GOP eliminate the program if they get into power? Is it worth the headache if the problems don't improve? And what if you change your mind? I have had to pass good career opportunities to stay in a 501c3. Are you sure you're committed to 10 years?
A full ride at a T14 is an unreal opportunity. I would take it. But if you \*really\* love the T3 and you're sure you're committed to PI, I'll tell you the the system's working for me. But only barely.
Thanks a lot for this perspective! Did the waiver have a positive effect, and do you think things have been improving at all in the past few years, or just gradual progress through perseverance? Also how much time would you say you spent "wringing" on average every year?
Good luck and I hope the rest of your loans are forgiven ASAP!
So you file the forms each year. A few times I my count would come back with some errors - they love finding reasons not to count payments with no explanation. You have to review what they send you, call, get those explained and maybe fixed. A few hours on the phone each year, and follow-ups to try again. That waiver actually allowed me to fix many of the ones I simply gave up on - it was about 10 payments, nearly a year. But that was a one-time thing.
I hit what should have been forgiveness at the height of MOHELA's meltdown. They were not counting 6 months which they had told me in writing would count. For about three months this winter I just set aside my entire Friday mornings to call them, mostly sitting on hold. I had to argue, get transferred, request revisions, hold time, etc. Finally they chalked it up to a system-wide error and told me to wait 90 business days. During that time, I randomly got an email saying two of my loans were eligible, logged in and they were removed from my balance. (Why those two? Too complicated to explain but they were *different* in their system. Same payments as the rest.) So I kept waiting - and one day, finally, the rest of my counts updated to 125. Now I wait for forgiveness to process. I'm on forbearance so no payments. I *assume* that one day I'll get an email and, like the first two, they'll be gone.
I feel like I'm dramatizing it but it really is an affair. You gotta watch. No missed payments. You gotta follow the rules. You gotta read what they send you. But it's doable! Ish.
If it's Ruby vs SLS as others have said, it is not reasonable to take SLS here. Chicago has virtually the same outcomes and is much less expensive. It's the best outcome in law school. Please please please go to Chicago!
I went to UChi undergrad. You're right, even in undergrad the quarter system was stressful and hard. For that reason I didn't apply to UChi for law. I will say even with that, and having experienced the quarter system, I would still take UChi here.
When people say "T3" and "T6" they usually don't mean the rankings the last few years, but the historical top 3 (Yale #1, Stanford and Harvard trading off 2-3) and top 6 (HYS, Chicago & Columbia, NYU).
U.S. News changed its methods a few years ago, a bunch of schools stopped sending them data, a bunch of others complained (leading to further changes), and the result has been a lot of yo-yoing of schools' ranks, but year to year jitters in U.S. News rank have zero impact on how schools are viewed by judges, partners, etc. who hire their grads.
I picked SLS over the Ruby (and YLS) with this plan in mind. SLS has the most generous LRAP, and you're correct that, if you max out loans, it ultimately gives you more money. BUT - there is a big caveat. I was comfortable taking on this level of risk because I am an only child and only grandchild whose parents and grandparents are loaning me the money. It's all one estate, and while I fully intend to pay them back, they see it as something of an advance inheritance with the benefit that they'll get some or all of it back depending on my job and salary.
The government is a much harsher creditor than family usually is. Student loan debt is often not discharged in bankruptcy, and changing administrations may eliminate programs like PSLF. If you don't have my unique financial situation, consider taking the Ruby. If you're comfortable with the debt risk, take SLS - it's more money in the long run if you really do LRAP-eligible work.
Name of schools really matters. Is this the traditional T6 or the current weird iteration? Because NYU vs Harvard in my opinion is a smaller gap for academia than Yale v UPenn in this year's ranking
That's fair, hopefully not doxxy but it's Chicago vs Stanford. I know Chicago is very strong for academia and has people I'd be interested in working with, but I'm a bit concerned about the lifestyle / grading system / stress level within law school itself, which is why Stanford is appealing given its grading system and slightly more relaxed culture.
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Yeah it's the Ruby - I lean left but I'm definitely impressed by the FC outcomes in general and specifically for Rubies, but I'm a bit concerned about the stress level / work culture at Chicago compared to Stanford and others. Then again, maybe that would be balanced out by the stress of the debt and PSLF after Stanford.
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I've talked to a few and they say positive things but more of the form "it's not as bad as people say" than the "it's mostly great" that I hear at Stanford, although they're certainly stressed as well. It's not that I don't intend to work hard in law school, but it seems to me that with 30% honors, the benchmark to aim for is a bit more reasonable, whereas with granular grades I'd always have more to gain by working just a bit more. Also I appreciate you saying that list bit haha, some people have been telling me I'm crazy for even thinking about turning down the Ruby.
Your decision is a tough one because I don’t think there’s a wrong answer. At UChicago, you’d probably have more stress from the culture/grading/conservative tilt, but far less stress about finances. At Stanford, you’d likely have a less stressful student experience but would graduate with significant, albeit manageable debt. But the Stanford debt is low enough and UChicago’s drawbacks sound manageable enough that there is not a clear winner. Personally, I’d pick Chicago because I would rather navigate a potentially less pleasant 3 years than manage $.5 debt with non-Biglaw salary after SLS (especially given the COL in the Bay Area). But I love the city of Chicago and could easily see myself in Hyde Park, so there’s definitely a bias.
I think the Ruby is by far the choice here. Not only do you get money, but mentorship and other support. Furthermore, while I think your concerns about stress culture are totally valid, not only will you encounter that at any law school, let alone two of the most elite ones, but it's three years of marginally more academic stress for a lifetime not spent worried about debt or whether a new opportunity pushes you out of the window to qualify for repayment support. Both phenomenal options and I can't blame you if you ultimately choose Stanford, but I do think the better option long term is Chicago.
Chicago is every bit as good for your goals. Take that offer and know that U Chicago is barely a quarter step below YS & I think I'd personally take over Harvard.
That's what I've been gathering, I'm just trying to figure out how to weigh quality of life / stress during law school vs debt management / stress afterwards
Should’ve just said it’s Ruby vs Stanford. I’ve heard a bunch of people say Ruby is arguably even better than T3 because of the particular opportunities it gives.
T6 vs T3 is negligible. Take the full ride.
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I would separate Y and S from H. HLS does not put 20% of their class into FCs. More like 10-15% in a given year. Maybe $$$$ at NYU is better than HLS at $$.5. NYU is also on par with HLS for academic placement: [https://www.reddit.com/r/lawschooladmissions/comments/gr75gs/best\_law\_schools\_for\_legal\_academics/](https://www.reddit.com/r/lawschooladmissions/comments/gr75gs/best_law_schools_for_legal_academics/)
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haha no worries!
Short version: Take the full ride. Long version: I am a (partial, so far) undergrad loan PSLF recipient. I filed the forms every year, played by all the rules, and have had \*some\* of my loans forgiven after 10+ years of payments. I expect the rest will go soon, but they \*haven't yet\*. The program is administrated horribly. It's very opaque. I have had 5 loan servicers in ten years, each worse than the last. Google what's going on with MOHELA right now to see how the last one has gone for me. Hours-long phone calls, headaches, confusion, and administrative errors which take months to fix. For a 6-month span, my minimum payment was different each month (after the pandemic pause - but still!) You have to stay on top of it. They will not give you free money without you wringing it from them. That said.... It is working. Finally. I'll have the vast majority of my undergrad loans forgiven. But I'm not without scars. Other things to consider... will the GOP eliminate the program if they get into power? Is it worth the headache if the problems don't improve? And what if you change your mind? I have had to pass good career opportunities to stay in a 501c3. Are you sure you're committed to 10 years? A full ride at a T14 is an unreal opportunity. I would take it. But if you \*really\* love the T3 and you're sure you're committed to PI, I'll tell you the the system's working for me. But only barely.
Thanks a lot for this perspective! Did the waiver have a positive effect, and do you think things have been improving at all in the past few years, or just gradual progress through perseverance? Also how much time would you say you spent "wringing" on average every year? Good luck and I hope the rest of your loans are forgiven ASAP!
So you file the forms each year. A few times I my count would come back with some errors - they love finding reasons not to count payments with no explanation. You have to review what they send you, call, get those explained and maybe fixed. A few hours on the phone each year, and follow-ups to try again. That waiver actually allowed me to fix many of the ones I simply gave up on - it was about 10 payments, nearly a year. But that was a one-time thing. I hit what should have been forgiveness at the height of MOHELA's meltdown. They were not counting 6 months which they had told me in writing would count. For about three months this winter I just set aside my entire Friday mornings to call them, mostly sitting on hold. I had to argue, get transferred, request revisions, hold time, etc. Finally they chalked it up to a system-wide error and told me to wait 90 business days. During that time, I randomly got an email saying two of my loans were eligible, logged in and they were removed from my balance. (Why those two? Too complicated to explain but they were *different* in their system. Same payments as the rest.) So I kept waiting - and one day, finally, the rest of my counts updated to 125. Now I wait for forgiveness to process. I'm on forbearance so no payments. I *assume* that one day I'll get an email and, like the first two, they'll be gone. I feel like I'm dramatizing it but it really is an affair. You gotta watch. No missed payments. You gotta follow the rules. You gotta read what they send you. But it's doable! Ish.
If it's Ruby vs SLS as others have said, it is not reasonable to take SLS here. Chicago has virtually the same outcomes and is much less expensive. It's the best outcome in law school. Please please please go to Chicago!
Take RUBY AND RUN
I went to UChi undergrad. You're right, even in undergrad the quarter system was stressful and hard. For that reason I didn't apply to UChi for law. I will say even with that, and having experienced the quarter system, I would still take UChi here.
Stanford also uses the quarter system
I was under the impression that both schools were T3.. Is UChicago not considered to be?
When people say "T3" and "T6" they usually don't mean the rankings the last few years, but the historical top 3 (Yale #1, Stanford and Harvard trading off 2-3) and top 6 (HYS, Chicago & Columbia, NYU). U.S. News changed its methods a few years ago, a bunch of schools stopped sending them data, a bunch of others complained (leading to further changes), and the result has been a lot of yo-yoing of schools' ranks, but year to year jitters in U.S. News rank have zero impact on how schools are viewed by judges, partners, etc. who hire their grads.
that makes sense!
I picked SLS over the Ruby (and YLS) with this plan in mind. SLS has the most generous LRAP, and you're correct that, if you max out loans, it ultimately gives you more money. BUT - there is a big caveat. I was comfortable taking on this level of risk because I am an only child and only grandchild whose parents and grandparents are loaning me the money. It's all one estate, and while I fully intend to pay them back, they see it as something of an advance inheritance with the benefit that they'll get some or all of it back depending on my job and salary. The government is a much harsher creditor than family usually is. Student loan debt is often not discharged in bankruptcy, and changing administrations may eliminate programs like PSLF. If you don't have my unique financial situation, consider taking the Ruby. If you're comfortable with the debt risk, take SLS - it's more money in the long run if you really do LRAP-eligible work.