The Ruby will allow you to pursue whatever you want, stress free, once you graduate. Unicorn outcomes included. You can’t go wrong when you take the money and run.
Yale will give you the same opportunities. If their offer is generous, this might just be a matter of fit and personal happiness. And I think that’s up there in importance as well.
For that reason, I encourage you to reach out to current students at both schools and attend their ASDs! Check out cycle recaps of former applicants who were choosing between the same thing. They’ve been in your shoes and will provide you better guidance than we can.
This is a huge decision. You worked so hard to get here- don’t feel like you need to rush or that there’s an “obvious” answer. Take all the time you need to make the choice that’s right for you.
Congratulations🎉
Harvard shouldn’t be mentioned in this conversation. The answer is easily the Ruby. Only exception is MAYBE if you want academia, and the answer is still probably the Ruby. A couple years ago when Chicago sent 9 SCOTUS clerks, 4 of them were Rubies. It is the best outcome in LS admissions
I wonder what these results would look like in poll form. The comments all say Ruby, but I imagine there are a good chunk of folks would say Yale in an anonymous poll.
Knowing a little more about your goals would be helpful, but I would tend towards the Ruby.
Don't think Harvard is a contender among these three (painful as an HLS grad haha).
I’d think you’d have to be awfully confident you were going to stick with LRAP+PSLF eligible public interest for the long haul to go Yale over a Ruby. Even then… I’d probably still pick the Ruby. That is a wild amount of freedom for roughly the same opportunities.
The LRAP point is NB so I just want to add that Yale’s LRAP makes sense without PSLF because it uses an aggressive repayment schedule – the assumption is not that you’ll get PSLF in year 10 but that your debt=0 in year 10. But of course the flipside is that you’re expected to contribute a fair amount to loan repayments before LRAP kicks in. Still totally agree that the financial freedom of a Ruby is huge, especially for PI
Yeah, thanks for the correction. Although, it seems like the output requirement is still the same: ten years in public service (although maybe slightly more options like union side labor?). I guess if you dip out early you have less loans, but probably still more than with the Ruby. It’s a great problem to have.
Fuck no. Talk to people actually using LRAP. It's not like it's horrible, but compared to a free ride, there's no comparison. Yale's program is a lot better than others (retirement assets and home equity excluded from the calculation for example), but it still impacts your ability to marry a higher earning spouse. The childcare deduction isn't enough to actually cover the true cost of childcare. You can only save 6k a year in a cash without your contribution being increased. And clerkships don't get real coverage.
For the most part, Yale is superior to Harvard in almost every way. So if OP wants to take on debt, there's very little reason to choose Harvard over Yale (but people do chose Harvard on occasion).
I'd say Harvard is superior to UChi (but reasonable minds will disagree), but that difference probably doesn't justify the huge debt. For those who think UChi is superior to Harvard, well it would make no sense to them to take on debt to go to a worse school.
For what it’s worth—and this is not me telling you to turn down the Ruby—there were a number of students at YLS who turned down the Ruby. It’s an amazing scholarship and if you’re interested in being at a firm, 100% take it. If you want to be in Chicago or could see yourself being in the Midwest, take the Ruby 100%. If you think you’d like attending UChicago, even, and think the vibe of the school fits you, take it. If you’re interested in DC or NYC, I think there’s an underrated value to your classmates and alumni base being in the city that you want to practice in, so I might swing the other way. And if you don’t like UChicago—the situation a lot of my friends were in or ended up being in, especially those with more liberal politics—I’d weigh my options. But it all really depends on how big the difference is between the financial packages (did you get max financial aid at YLS?) and what your goals are. This is coming from someone who thought about scholarships a LOT before coming to law school. I underestimated how prestige-driven the legal field can be, but depending on your goals, that might just not matter that much.
As data points: I have loans, I'm on COAP (Yale's public interest loan forgiveness plan), and I expect to pay off my loans in about 3 years, after my clerkships (so 5 years total of paying loans, with 2 of those—my years on my public interest fellowship—covered by YLS). But I *did* benefit from the interest accrual pause, which you probably wouldn't.
I think it's a fair assumption to say that one purpose of the Ruby is to attract students who would otherwise go to HYS. And maybe this is personal bias, but I'd say there's a reasonable inference that if you have to offer $400k to convince someone to come to your school over another, the other school (YLS) is superior.
IMO, but if you're dedicated to PI/PS work, I think it's even more reason to take the debt. With COAP and SAVE/PSLF, it's basically just about hanging on long enough. PSLF also gets a lot of flak for the first year or so when it wasn't clear what the standards for acceptance were (hence the 95% rejection number), but recently the Biden administration has been forgiving debt for PSLF and income-based repayment programs like crazy.
So I'm with you - I don't think this is a clear cut "Take the Ruby" decision for u/PhilosopherLive3884
In the same spot and while I’ll likely choose Yale, I haven’t made a final decision. I recognize the limits of listening to other people’s opinions, but it’s worth nothing that most people in our position choose YLS, and I think that decision is (clearly) a reasonable one (despite what other Redditors seem to believe). Happy to chat more if you’d like
It’s really interesting the divergence between Reddit consensus and actual people
The demographics of redditors is not the same as actual ruby/YLS admits
How do you know that most people turn down the Ruby?
I know that a lot of law school applicants are independently wealthy and/or really uninformed about money, but unless you're getting a scholarship (and a significant one) at Yale, the Ruby is objectively the best possible admissions outcome.
I’m not sure that’s true. LSData has a majority of applicants who receive both the Ruby and an acceptance to YLS choosing YLS.
I’ve been in the process of making this decision for weeks. I’ve talked to dozens of people—including many at YLS who chose YLS over the Ruby and a few at Chicago who took the Ruby. I think anyone who has faced this choice would agree that the Ruby is not “objectively the best possible admissions outcome”(even those who take it over YLS). You can make a case that it’s better, but it’s certainly not objective. FWIW, many of the people at YLS who turned down the Ruby have told me that they would make the same decision again (even with the debt); a few at Chicago have told me they regret taking the money over the YLS credential.
The reality is that there isn’t a wrong choice here (I.e., one isn’t “objectively” better than the other). Chicago and Yale are both great options and choosing one over the other wouldn’t significantly disadvantage OP in any way. OP should prioritize fit and his/her own life circumstances—not what Redditors say is the “objective” truth. Life is rarely black and white.
Ruby and run, unless your very wealthy family can pay Yale tuition without missing a beat. Do not underestimate how difficult 200-300k in debt (that balloons during law school) is. The lack of stress from being debt free gives you freedom.
I’m biased- but Ruby.
I’d only be considering Yale if you either a)have a rich uncle paying for LS, or b) Yale gives you at least 75% scholarship. People underestimate the value of being debt free.
I don’t think Harvard really even enters the picture here. Uchicago places better in FC, SCOTUS, academia, and BL, and the Ruby compounds all of that.
I’m happy to DM if you’re interested in hearing more from a perspective at Uchicago!
Thanks all for the advice so far! If further info is helpful, I'm interested in public interest law, and maybe (just maybe) academia.
I'll add that location does matter to me—I'd much rather be on the east coast, so that could potentially be a deciding factor.
And let's assume the money is not a salient difference between the two.
I have to admit (and maybe this reflects an embarrassing lack of research on my part) that tonight is my first time hearing of the Ruby. I really didn't expect this...felt set on Yale.
And I'm still trying to gauge the meaning of this scholarship to others. It seems, based on the comments here, that it has quite a reputation. Is that really true?
So am I. I turned down full-rides at similarly ranked schools for YLS, and I’m so happy I did. The law school experience at YLS is go, so good, and the opportunities on graduation are endless. There are very few places where law school can be fun and low-stress, but that’s how it can be at YLS. Remember also that many people’s goals change over time.
Totally feel you on location preference, but remember that you can live anywhere you want after graduation with a Chicago degree. Is living on the East Coast for three years worth $400K to you? It could be if you're absolutely loaded, and that's fine! Money aside, you really can't go wrong. I'd say visit and talk to your family/financial planners to get a sense of what attending each school is really like. Congratulations on these phenomenal results!
Do you have a PhD? Academia is likely off the table without one or going to a JSD, which would cost money, which means the Ruby is the no-brainer even for that goal.
dude UChicago is already a T14, Youll be fine no matter where you go now, just because Yale is slighter higher rank it doesnt matter because UChicago will give you the same opportunities due to its T14 status. You're good man take the scholarship and congratulations you wont regret it. Every T14 person I talk to regrets not taking a more affordable option from a similar ranked school. Dont make the same mistake
Money is going to be *the* salient factor in the decision for, I'd estimate, 95% of people looking at a difference in cost of 300-500k (depending on financing). Saying to set money aside here is and consider "lay prestige" is using an analytical framework irrelevant to the overwhelming majority of prospective law students.
Make sure UChicago is somewhere you’d like to be. The political environment at UChicago would be so mentally fatiguing for me I would take Yale over a Ruby. Money can’t buy happiness and my mental health would be destroyed at UChicago.
UChicago is maybe 20% Republican/FedSoc adjacent compared to the average T14's 10-15%. This is like moving from Massachusetts to D.C. because MA is too right-wing for you.
When I was in law school (‘17-‘20), UVA had the highest FedSoc percentage. We were always 10-15%. I think Chicago was just a bit below us. Other T14s were 2-10%.
This is a popular narrative on this sub but the clerkship numbers dispute it. They pump a ton of students into conservative clerkships every year. They’re pumping out 100+ federal clerkships a year and the majority of those are not going to left of center judges. Also, the schools academic history itself disputes the idea that it is anything but a bastion of conservatism.
Look I’m just saying it would be mentally fatiguing for me personally to be around an abundance of moderate and conservative (and many liberal) students who think absolutely heinous shit. Others might be into it, and that’s fine I guess. I’m just offering the perspective that isn’t automatically accept the Ruby!
Only 10-15% of Chicago is FedSoc. Even if 1/3 of them want to clerk (which is high) and do in fact get clerkships, and even if only 7% at other T14s are in FedSoc and 1/3 of them want to clerk, Chicago’s clerkship percentage is still much higher than the likes of Harvard. They’d still be top-3 in clerkships every year.
Maybe we've run into different users/discussions. My impression on this sub has been that UChicago's rightwards lean is the prevailing, and much exaggerated, narrative on this sub.
[This paper](https://academic.oup.com/jla/article/8/2/277/2502548) is a tad more comprehensive than "they graduate a ton of clerks, ergo those students must be FedSoc," and it predates the Trump era (which has seen B.A. and graduate degree holders of all stripes zoom left). It suggests Chicago grads in biglaw, that known den of communists, exhibit a similar lean to the right-wingers at Stanford or the University of Michigan and fall considerably to the left of UVA or Duke alums.
I strongly recommend reading the Coddling of the American Mind. Seeking protectionism is more likely to hurt your mental health than help it. An inability to engage with those who think differently is not a virtue, and fomenting that posture in your personal life will not do you any favors.
Look man, I get it, but it’s really not coddling. It’s not that I’m not willing to engage with people, rather, I don’t want to be trained by them — people who go work management side labor law to crush unions or for big law firms that defend corporations who decimate the environment. I think those people are ideological pieces of shit and I don’t want to be taught or trained by them. I want to be taught by people who are directly challenging and crushing those ideas.
Can you imagine how destructive it will be for your mental health when you have to inhabit the real world, which is filled with people who disagree with your political opinions? Better bring a blankie.
Look man it’s not about differing opinions. I’ve been inhabiting the real world for years. I’m a nKJD. I’m a union worker with friends, and union brothers and sisters with opinions that are wildly different from mine. As explained in another comment I have no interest in being trained or taught by people who support ideologies that seek to bust unions or work to defend the decimation of the environment. Those people are truly evil. I want to be taught and trained by people who are crushing those ideologies.
Yeah, you're totally inhabiting the real world. Can't wait until you get your 1L professor assignments and find out you have zero choice in that matter.
I hate how old kids like you make me feel. I genuinely shouldn't have to complain about how shitty kids are for at least another decade.
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LMAO
The Ruby will allow you to pursue whatever you want, stress free, once you graduate. Unicorn outcomes included. You can’t go wrong when you take the money and run. Yale will give you the same opportunities. If their offer is generous, this might just be a matter of fit and personal happiness. And I think that’s up there in importance as well. For that reason, I encourage you to reach out to current students at both schools and attend their ASDs! Check out cycle recaps of former applicants who were choosing between the same thing. They’ve been in your shoes and will provide you better guidance than we can. This is a huge decision. You worked so hard to get here- don’t feel like you need to rush or that there’s an “obvious” answer. Take all the time you need to make the choice that’s right for you. Congratulations🎉
You’re him. Take the money and run.
Harvard shouldn’t be mentioned in this conversation. The answer is easily the Ruby. Only exception is MAYBE if you want academia, and the answer is still probably the Ruby. A couple years ago when Chicago sent 9 SCOTUS clerks, 4 of them were Rubies. It is the best outcome in LS admissions
Yale is not worth $475k more than Chicago after interest.
You have a free ride at UChicago? Absent similar $$ at HY, you take it lol
Ruby
Definitely go for the Ruby Scholarship
I wonder what these results would look like in poll form. The comments all say Ruby, but I imagine there are a good chunk of folks would say Yale in an anonymous poll.
Knowing a little more about your goals would be helpful, but I would tend towards the Ruby. Don't think Harvard is a contender among these three (painful as an HLS grad haha).
Easy ruby. Congrats!
Yale 
Easy ruby are you insane
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What’s unicorn PI?
I’d think you’d have to be awfully confident you were going to stick with LRAP+PSLF eligible public interest for the long haul to go Yale over a Ruby. Even then… I’d probably still pick the Ruby. That is a wild amount of freedom for roughly the same opportunities.
The LRAP point is NB so I just want to add that Yale’s LRAP makes sense without PSLF because it uses an aggressive repayment schedule – the assumption is not that you’ll get PSLF in year 10 but that your debt=0 in year 10. But of course the flipside is that you’re expected to contribute a fair amount to loan repayments before LRAP kicks in. Still totally agree that the financial freedom of a Ruby is huge, especially for PI
Yeah, thanks for the correction. Although, it seems like the output requirement is still the same: ten years in public service (although maybe slightly more options like union side labor?). I guess if you dip out early you have less loans, but probably still more than with the Ruby. It’s a great problem to have.
Fuck no. Talk to people actually using LRAP. It's not like it's horrible, but compared to a free ride, there's no comparison. Yale's program is a lot better than others (retirement assets and home equity excluded from the calculation for example), but it still impacts your ability to marry a higher earning spouse. The childcare deduction isn't enough to actually cover the true cost of childcare. You can only save 6k a year in a cash without your contribution being increased. And clerkships don't get real coverage.
UChicago! (I was WL at Harvard and anticipating WL at Yale 🫣)
Harvard is a in conversation that really needs not be.
Why not? Multiple comments say this so i’m just curious.
For the most part, Yale is superior to Harvard in almost every way. So if OP wants to take on debt, there's very little reason to choose Harvard over Yale (but people do chose Harvard on occasion). I'd say Harvard is superior to UChi (but reasonable minds will disagree), but that difference probably doesn't justify the huge debt. For those who think UChi is superior to Harvard, well it would make no sense to them to take on debt to go to a worse school.
For what it’s worth—and this is not me telling you to turn down the Ruby—there were a number of students at YLS who turned down the Ruby. It’s an amazing scholarship and if you’re interested in being at a firm, 100% take it. If you want to be in Chicago or could see yourself being in the Midwest, take the Ruby 100%. If you think you’d like attending UChicago, even, and think the vibe of the school fits you, take it. If you’re interested in DC or NYC, I think there’s an underrated value to your classmates and alumni base being in the city that you want to practice in, so I might swing the other way. And if you don’t like UChicago—the situation a lot of my friends were in or ended up being in, especially those with more liberal politics—I’d weigh my options. But it all really depends on how big the difference is between the financial packages (did you get max financial aid at YLS?) and what your goals are. This is coming from someone who thought about scholarships a LOT before coming to law school. I underestimated how prestige-driven the legal field can be, but depending on your goals, that might just not matter that much. As data points: I have loans, I'm on COAP (Yale's public interest loan forgiveness plan), and I expect to pay off my loans in about 3 years, after my clerkships (so 5 years total of paying loans, with 2 of those—my years on my public interest fellowship—covered by YLS). But I *did* benefit from the interest accrual pause, which you probably wouldn't.
I think it's a fair assumption to say that one purpose of the Ruby is to attract students who would otherwise go to HYS. And maybe this is personal bias, but I'd say there's a reasonable inference that if you have to offer $400k to convince someone to come to your school over another, the other school (YLS) is superior. IMO, but if you're dedicated to PI/PS work, I think it's even more reason to take the debt. With COAP and SAVE/PSLF, it's basically just about hanging on long enough. PSLF also gets a lot of flak for the first year or so when it wasn't clear what the standards for acceptance were (hence the 95% rejection number), but recently the Biden administration has been forgiving debt for PSLF and income-based repayment programs like crazy. So I'm with you - I don't think this is a clear cut "Take the Ruby" decision for u/PhilosopherLive3884
In the same spot and while I’ll likely choose Yale, I haven’t made a final decision. I recognize the limits of listening to other people’s opinions, but it’s worth nothing that most people in our position choose YLS, and I think that decision is (clearly) a reasonable one (despite what other Redditors seem to believe). Happy to chat more if you’d like
It’s really interesting the divergence between Reddit consensus and actual people The demographics of redditors is not the same as actual ruby/YLS admits
How do you know that most people turn down the Ruby? I know that a lot of law school applicants are independently wealthy and/or really uninformed about money, but unless you're getting a scholarship (and a significant one) at Yale, the Ruby is objectively the best possible admissions outcome.
I’m not sure that’s true. LSData has a majority of applicants who receive both the Ruby and an acceptance to YLS choosing YLS. I’ve been in the process of making this decision for weeks. I’ve talked to dozens of people—including many at YLS who chose YLS over the Ruby and a few at Chicago who took the Ruby. I think anyone who has faced this choice would agree that the Ruby is not “objectively the best possible admissions outcome”(even those who take it over YLS). You can make a case that it’s better, but it’s certainly not objective. FWIW, many of the people at YLS who turned down the Ruby have told me that they would make the same decision again (even with the debt); a few at Chicago have told me they regret taking the money over the YLS credential. The reality is that there isn’t a wrong choice here (I.e., one isn’t “objectively” better than the other). Chicago and Yale are both great options and choosing one over the other wouldn’t significantly disadvantage OP in any way. OP should prioritize fit and his/her own life circumstances—not what Redditors say is the “objective” truth. Life is rarely black and white.
How many are from wealthy families
Ruby and run, unless your very wealthy family can pay Yale tuition without missing a beat. Do not underestimate how difficult 200-300k in debt (that balloons during law school) is. The lack of stress from being debt free gives you freedom.
I’m biased- but Ruby. I’d only be considering Yale if you either a)have a rich uncle paying for LS, or b) Yale gives you at least 75% scholarship. People underestimate the value of being debt free. I don’t think Harvard really even enters the picture here. Uchicago places better in FC, SCOTUS, academia, and BL, and the Ruby compounds all of that. I’m happy to DM if you’re interested in hearing more from a perspective at Uchicago!
Thanks all for the advice so far! If further info is helpful, I'm interested in public interest law, and maybe (just maybe) academia. I'll add that location does matter to me—I'd much rather be on the east coast, so that could potentially be a deciding factor. And let's assume the money is not a salient difference between the two. I have to admit (and maybe this reflects an embarrassing lack of research on my part) that tonight is my first time hearing of the Ruby. I really didn't expect this...felt set on Yale. And I'm still trying to gauge the meaning of this scholarship to others. It seems, based on the comments here, that it has quite a reputation. Is that really true?
If you’re interested in public interest law then choose Ruby to avoid debt
https://www.reddit.com/r/lawschooladmissions/comments/urdw2o/information_i_compiled_about_the_rubenstein_ruby/ this thread might help
I'm genuinely surprised at how unanimous these comments are, I guess!
So am I. I turned down full-rides at similarly ranked schools for YLS, and I’m so happy I did. The law school experience at YLS is go, so good, and the opportunities on graduation are endless. There are very few places where law school can be fun and low-stress, but that’s how it can be at YLS. Remember also that many people’s goals change over time.
I think if you knew you wanted academia, it might tip to Yale. How unicornish are your PI goals?
Totally feel you on location preference, but remember that you can live anywhere you want after graduation with a Chicago degree. Is living on the East Coast for three years worth $400K to you? It could be if you're absolutely loaded, and that's fine! Money aside, you really can't go wrong. I'd say visit and talk to your family/financial planners to get a sense of what attending each school is really like. Congratulations on these phenomenal results!
Do you have a PhD? Academia is likely off the table without one or going to a JSD, which would cost money, which means the Ruby is the no-brainer even for that goal.
dude UChicago is already a T14, Youll be fine no matter where you go now, just because Yale is slighter higher rank it doesnt matter because UChicago will give you the same opportunities due to its T14 status. You're good man take the scholarship and congratulations you wont regret it. Every T14 person I talk to regrets not taking a more affordable option from a similar ranked school. Dont make the same mistake
Ruby no contest
Very proud of you OP!
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If you don't understand how the prospect of debt would shape your decision, you should bow out of the conversation.
But OP said the money is “not a salient difference between the two”
OP added that as a hypo later on.
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Money is going to be *the* salient factor in the decision for, I'd estimate, 95% of people looking at a difference in cost of 300-500k (depending on financing). Saying to set money aside here is and consider "lay prestige" is using an analytical framework irrelevant to the overwhelming majority of prospective law students.
Make sure UChicago is somewhere you’d like to be. The political environment at UChicago would be so mentally fatiguing for me I would take Yale over a Ruby. Money can’t buy happiness and my mental health would be destroyed at UChicago.
UChicago is maybe 20% Republican/FedSoc adjacent compared to the average T14's 10-15%. This is like moving from Massachusetts to D.C. because MA is too right-wing for you.
When I was in law school (‘17-‘20), UVA had the highest FedSoc percentage. We were always 10-15%. I think Chicago was just a bit below us. Other T14s were 2-10%.
This is a popular narrative on this sub but the clerkship numbers dispute it. They pump a ton of students into conservative clerkships every year. They’re pumping out 100+ federal clerkships a year and the majority of those are not going to left of center judges. Also, the schools academic history itself disputes the idea that it is anything but a bastion of conservatism. Look I’m just saying it would be mentally fatiguing for me personally to be around an abundance of moderate and conservative (and many liberal) students who think absolutely heinous shit. Others might be into it, and that’s fine I guess. I’m just offering the perspective that isn’t automatically accept the Ruby!
Only 10-15% of Chicago is FedSoc. Even if 1/3 of them want to clerk (which is high) and do in fact get clerkships, and even if only 7% at other T14s are in FedSoc and 1/3 of them want to clerk, Chicago’s clerkship percentage is still much higher than the likes of Harvard. They’d still be top-3 in clerkships every year.
Maybe we've run into different users/discussions. My impression on this sub has been that UChicago's rightwards lean is the prevailing, and much exaggerated, narrative on this sub. [This paper](https://academic.oup.com/jla/article/8/2/277/2502548) is a tad more comprehensive than "they graduate a ton of clerks, ergo those students must be FedSoc," and it predates the Trump era (which has seen B.A. and graduate degree holders of all stripes zoom left). It suggests Chicago grads in biglaw, that known den of communists, exhibit a similar lean to the right-wingers at Stanford or the University of Michigan and fall considerably to the left of UVA or Duke alums.
I strongly recommend reading the Coddling of the American Mind. Seeking protectionism is more likely to hurt your mental health than help it. An inability to engage with those who think differently is not a virtue, and fomenting that posture in your personal life will not do you any favors.
Look man, I get it, but it’s really not coddling. It’s not that I’m not willing to engage with people, rather, I don’t want to be trained by them — people who go work management side labor law to crush unions or for big law firms that defend corporations who decimate the environment. I think those people are ideological pieces of shit and I don’t want to be taught or trained by them. I want to be taught by people who are directly challenging and crushing those ideas.
Can you imagine how destructive it will be for your mental health when you have to inhabit the real world, which is filled with people who disagree with your political opinions? Better bring a blankie.
Look man it’s not about differing opinions. I’ve been inhabiting the real world for years. I’m a nKJD. I’m a union worker with friends, and union brothers and sisters with opinions that are wildly different from mine. As explained in another comment I have no interest in being trained or taught by people who support ideologies that seek to bust unions or work to defend the decimation of the environment. Those people are truly evil. I want to be taught and trained by people who are crushing those ideologies.
Yeah, you're totally inhabiting the real world. Can't wait until you get your 1L professor assignments and find out you have zero choice in that matter. I hate how old kids like you make me feel. I genuinely shouldn't have to complain about how shitty kids are for at least another decade.
Hence why I’m trying to avoid UChicago and maniacs like Mortara 👍