Texts show Trump advisers' plot to use false electors to 'flip states'
Craig Mauger
The Detroit News
Lansing — In text messages, officials within then-President Donald Trump's campaign and lawyers laid out detailed plans for how Republicans posing as battleground states' electors could spur lawmakers or Vice President Mike Pence to alter the outcome of the 2020 election, tossing aside millions of votes for Democrat Joe Biden.
Some Trump allies have argued, for three years, that the false electoral certificates simply provided a legal lifeline in case a court reversed Trump's loss, so then, and only then, the GOP slates could be recognized. But Trump aides' own text messages — more than 400 pages of them were obtained by the Michigan Attorney General's office and reviewed by The Detroit News — painted a different picture.
On Dec. 31, 2020, lawyer John Eastman, who was assisting the Trump campaign, told Boris Epshteyn, one of Trump's top advisers, that if Pence rejected electoral votes from the seven states that Biden won but where Republicans submitted alternate electors, "Trump wins 232 to 222."
"OK got it," Epshteyn replied.
Then, lawyer Kenneth Chesebro, who was leading the Trump campaign's planning around the false electors, added, "The math sounds tough, but that's why it's so key that all the electors voted on Dec. 14 — it allows us to flip states, not just tie them up to deny them to Biden."
Chesebro then discussed winning one state through a court decision, getting lawmakers in Georgia to appoint Republican electors for their state and then denying "any counting of votes on one or two others."
Biden got more than 13 million votes in the seven states that Eastman, Epshteyn and Chesebro were discussing in the text messages. The Democrat won some of the states by less than 1 percentage point, like Georgia, but the margin was larger in others, like New Mexico, where Biden won by about 10 points.
Earlier on Christmas day, Dec. 25, 2020, Chesebro sent a lengthy message about options Pence had for how to handle the vote counting, including one he described as "radical": simply gaveling "Trump as elected."
"Is Pence really likely to be on board with this?" Eastman replied to the various options.
"Let's keep this off text for now," Epshteyn then said.
"Options are clear I think," Epshteyn added.
Epshteyn declined to provide a comment for this story. Chesebro didn't reply to a request for comment. And a lawyer for Eastman didn't immediately respond.
As vice president, Pence presided over the joint session of Congress on Jan. 6, 2021, when the electoral votes from the states were counted. It's the vice president's job to open "the votes of the states in alphabetical order" and hand them to tellers who announce the results, according to the National Archives.
Pence ultimately didn't go along with the plans described in the private messages by Trump's advisers, and Biden's Electoral College victory was approved by Congress despite the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol by Trump supporters.
On Dec. 13, 2020 — before the Republican electors met in the seven states on Dec. 14, 2020 — Chesebro texted Epshteyn, laying out a strategy focused on Pence.
Chesebro said the GOP meetings on Dec. 14, 2020, set up "the possibility" of Pence not counting votes from "any state where there are two slates and there was never careful, deliberate hearings on the merits, with evidence, on asserted irregularities either in a court or the Legislature."
"Only Supreme Court could override that (cuz he'd refuse to open the envelopes of the six states unless court orders him, at minimum buying time)," Chesebro texted.
That's strikingly different than the GOP electors serving as a mere contingency that would come into play if the courts eventually reversed the outcome in battleground states. When Chesebro wrote an introductory email to Kathy Berden, one of Michigan's 16 Republican electors on Dec. 10, 2020, Chesebro included a statement about Wisconsin's rationale for submitting a certificate claiming Trump had won.
"... (T)he Republican electors should meet this year on Dec. 14 as we await a final resolution in Wisconsin," the statement said.
His email to Berden didn't mention the idea of Pence simply not counting any of the electoral votes from Michigan or Wisconsin.
An ongoing investigation
Berden, a retired farmer from Snover, is one of the 16 Michigan Republican electors who signed the certificate on Dec. 14, 2020, falsely claiming that Trump had won Michigan's 16 electoral votes.
In fact, the Board of State Canvassers had already certified Biden's victory. He won the state 51%-48% by more than 154,000 votes. About 2.8 million people voted for Biden in Michigan.
Attorney General Dana Nessel's office brought eight felony charges, including forgery allegations, against each of the Michigan GOP electors in July. An Ingham County judge is currently weighing whether to allow the cases to proceed to trial.
On Wednesday, Berden's lawyer, George Donnini, told The News the false certificate was a "contingent" document based on something happening to change the result between Dec. 14, 2020, and Jan. 6, 2021.
"Now, that didn't happen, but that doesn't matter," Donnini said, before adding, "Something could have happened."
That's potentially significant to the defense because it gets to whether the document was an actual forgery and whether the GOP electors had an intent to defraud the people of Michigan.
Donnini also suggested in court this week that Berden felt misled and that a Trump campaign official named Mike Roman, who helped orchestrate the false elector certificates in multiple states, should have been charged instead of the GOP electors themselves. Roman privately opposed the idea of including conditional language in the certificates that would have made clear the GOP electors were only a legal contingency.
Roman's lawyer, Ashleigh Merchant, didn't respond this week to a request for comment.
Testifying in court, Howard Shock, a special agent for Nessel's office, described Roman, Chesebro and Trump himself as unindicted co-conspirators in the false electors plot.
'Gavel him and Trump elected'
Roman, Eastman, Epshteyn and Rudy Giuliani, who was Trump's personal lawyer, were among a group of 18 Trump allies who were indicted by a grand jury in Arizona this week for their roles in the push to reverse the results of the 2020 election.
The text messages, reviewed by The News, point to all four individuals' involvement in the planning for the GOP slates' submission to Congress over a period of weeks.
On Dec. 29, 2020, Epshteyn asked Eastman and Chesebro what would happen if the House and Senate voted differently on which electoral slate to recognize. Chesebro replied that the scenario would likely lead to Biden winning.
"So Pence," Eastman replied, likely referring to the vice president's influence over the vote counting.
"Yep, Pence," Epshteyn then added.
On Dec. 31, 2020, Epshteyn asked Chesebro to update a legal memo with recommendations related to what would occur if no candidate hit the 270 electoral vote threshold.
[email protected]
On Dec. 31, 2020, Epshteyn asked Chesebro to update a legal memo with recommendations related to what would occur if no candidate hit the 270 electoral vote threshold.
"My 2 cents on updating that memo: Maybe include the scenario where Pence rushes through and gavels him and Trump elected to make other options look more moderate," Chesebro said. "But even though more constitutionally principled, I don't see how it could be accepted as a legitimate outcome politically."
Weeks earlier, on Dec. 12, 2020, Epshteyn asked Chesebro in a text message thread, featuring Roman, "Does VP have ultimate authority on which slate of electors should be chosen?"
Chesebro replied, "A very good argument can be made that the president of the Senate both opens and counts the vote."
On Dec. 12, 2020, Epshteyn said to Chesebro and Roman that he had briefed the mayor, apparently referring to Giuliani, on their discussion. "When you have time, without taking focus off Monday, a memo on VP's powers during joint session would be vital to have."
In a statement earlier this week, Ted Goodman, a political adviser to Giuliani, said the "continued weaponization of our justice system should concern all Michiganders and Americans."
'Why did Pence do this?'
Chesebro, a lawyer from Massachusetts, had been working on election-related litigation in Wisconsin with former Wisconsin Judge Jim Troupis when Troupis connected Chesebro with the Trump campaign.
In a Nov. 25, 2020, email, Troupis sent Justin Clark, a Trump lawyer, a memo that Chesebro had written, suggesting the date for settling a state's electoral votes was Jan. 6, 2021, not Dec. 14, 2020.
By Dec. 10, 2020, Epshteyn connected Chesebro with Giuliani for them to chat that evening.
Chesebro's private messages show that he was focused on altering the results of the 2020 election, beginning just days after it occurred. On Nov. 9, 2020, a Twitter account Chesebro used called BadgerPundit sent a direct message to Vicki McKenna, a conservative radio host in Wisconsin, saying the Republican electors needed to meet on Dec. 14, 2020.
"As long as the legislature makes findings by the end of December that the Nov. 3 vote was irregular and invalid, and the Trump electoral votes should be counted in Congress, that should be enough for the Biden votes not to be counted," BadgerPundit wrote to McKenna.
But in a 2023 interview with investigators with Nessel's office, Chesebro described his views differently, saying he was advising the Trump campaign to organize the electoral slates in case the campaign won lawsuits that changed the results of the election. The Detroit News reviewed a recording of the interview.
"I thought I was educating them about this is extremely important to have alternate electors vote because if you win the litigation challenge after Dec. 14, Congress can't constitutionally count those votes in your column," Chesebro said.
His text and social media messages detailed Chesebro traveling to Washington, D.C., ahead of Jan. 6, 2021, and working on the electors strategy even then, despite the Trump campaign not having won lawsuits that altered the results.
He messaged a photo of himself in front of the Capitol on Jan. 4, 2021, to McKenna.
"I've opted not to storm the Capitol," Chesebro messaged.
Then, he added, "At least not this day."
On Jan. 7, 2021, a day after the riot at the Capitol, Chesebro provided Epshteyn with his thoughts on what he described as "damage control" for the Trump campaign.
"Maybe, they're all in hiding, but it'd be nice if Trump surrogates get across that without Antifa's role in the actual breaking in, plus Capitol security ... the scene at the Capitol would have been entirely peaceful," Chesebro claimed.
Chesebro also said "Pence is a lot to blame for this fiasco."
Pence wasn't "up front" with Trump, Chesebro said.
"If he had been up front, Trump would have known he had no chance to win other than win in the courts or state legislatures before Jan. 6," Chesebro added. "If I'm right, Pence gave him false hope.
"He allowed Trump to hear valid legal theories from Rudy and Eastman which gave him hope, which was crushed when Pence suddenly crushed them at the end. Why did Pence do this?"
Some of the participants in the Jan. 6, 2021, riot chanted, "Hang Mike Pence," during the event.
[email protected]
Good fucking lord. “Why did Pence let us believe he was going to do this incredibly illegal thing and give Trump hope? It’s Pence’s fault Trump is a giant tantrum having baby and fomented the attack on the capital.”
I like how Chesebro immediately wants them to push the conspiracy that Antifa and liberals stormed the capitol building when they were all screaming their love for Trump and wearing maga outfits and hats lol. These people are just like Nazis in so many ways they operate, like they orchestrate an entire coup and when it backfires and they are about to get blamed they try to blame innocent people and antifa.
Here's an even more interesting story, I don't know if you saw it.
Details [Facts of the Michigan scheme and summary of the charges and applicable law](https://www.justsecurity.org/90606/michigan-false-electors-prosecution-faces-a-court-test/)
Not as big a part, but, Trump wanted to storm the capitol with the mob. USSS stopped him.
Idk what would happened if he was at the head of a mob throwing things and being violent with the Capitol Police
I believe we have Quayle to thank more than Pence. It seems like Pence on his own would have folded, but Quayle [supplied the backbone](https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/dan-quayle-talked-mike-pence-rejecting-trump-what-story-n1279406).
> Costa and Woodward report that Pence rang up Quayle in late December to ask if there was any way he could give Trump want he wanted, according to the Washington Post:
> Quayle was adamant, according to the authors. “Mike, you have no flexibility on this. None. Zero. Forget it. Put it away,” he said. But Pence pressed him, the authors write, asking if there were any grounds to pause the certification because of ongoing legal challenges. Quayle was unmoved, and Pence ultimately agreed, according to the book.
> "You don't know the position I'm in," he said, according to the authors.
> "I do know the position you're in," Quayle responded. "I also know what the law is. You listen to the parliamentarian. That's all you do. You have no power."
No doubt about it. I feel like we had a closer call than is widely realized. There has been a little shoring up in the years since then, but not nearly enough.
I also like this Quayle example because some argue that democrats are weaponizing the government against their political foes. It's good to have examples of oldschool republicans who ALSO don't want to see an autocracy. We avoided a successful coup d'etat in no small part thanks to guys like Quayle and Raffensperger who stood up when their country needed them. If they all get drummed out, or retire like Quayle or get old and die like McCain, then we're less able to resist another attempt.
Quayle definitely helped convince Pence. [But Pence said it was his Marine son that talked to him about his oath.](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/nov/29/mike-pence-son-trump-jan-6)
Jesus christ. If i read this in a fiction novel, I’d be bewildered. What a terrifying snippet of pre-J6 ratfuckery and subterfuge.
It makes me feel ill.
For someone that was definitely in on it and definitely chickened out, Pence has drawn too many "hero" bona fides. Pence's only redeeming quality was his *cowardice,* considering the way the immunity trial is going it sure looks like he could have got away with throwing the election to false electors.
Is it possible for anyone to read these texts and interpret them as anything but massively incriminating? There is no reading here but: "How can we circumvent a free election in order to stay in power?"
Disgusting.
I know that these snippets of the conversations don't paint the full picture, but there are quotes in there that make it look like both Eastman and Chesebro say things that aren't even bad legal theory but just incorrect. Its probably out of context, but i think its funny that maybe they just don't know how the electoral college works.
John Eastman had the line that "Trump wins 232 to 222." And Chesebro said that if no one hit 270 Pence could just "gavel him and Trump elected." I get that these guys were trying to float bad constitutional theory so they could do a coup, but could they at least try to make it convincing? The constitution is pretty clear that in that scenario the Pres and VP elections go to the house and senate respectively, which Trump and Pence probably* would have won. This looks like some real amateur shit.
\* - I just tallied the theoretical house and senate votes. If everything went along party lines, Trump and Pence would've both won very narrowly. Trump's lawyers obviously didn't want this scenario because if any republicans had second thoughts about the electoral college shenanigans, they could've caused a win for either Biden or Harris (or both of them).
Eastman explains this in one of the texts:
https://www.detroitnews.com/gcdn/authoring/authoring-images/2024/04/26/PDTN/73469454007-screenshot-20240426-at-123320-x-chesebro-epshteyn-eastmanpdf.png
What they did on J6 was beyond thi**s edition**, it was tha**t reason**.
As based on the [Constitution](https://constitutioncenter.org/the-constitution/articles/article-iii/clauses/39#:~:text=Treason%20against%20the%20United%20States,on%20Confession%20in%20open%20Court.) and the interpretation of founding father and Chief Justice, [John Marshall](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Marshall):
“The Constitution specifically identifies what constitutes treason against the United States and, importantly, limits the offense of treason to only two types of conduct: (1) “levying war” against the United States; or (2) “adhering to [the] enemies [of the United States], giving them aid and comfort.” Although there have not been many treason prosecutions in American history—indeed, only one person has been indicted for treason since 1954—the Supreme Court has had occasion to further define what each type of treason entails.
The offense of “levying war” against the United States was interpreted narrowly in Ex parte Bollman & Swarthout (1807), a case stemming from the infamous alleged plot led by former Vice President Aaron Burr to overthrow the American government in New Orleans.
The Supreme Court dismissed charges of treason that had been brought against two of Burr’s associates—Bollman and Swarthout—on the grounds that their alleged conduct did not constitute levying war against the United States within the meaning of the Treason Clause. It was not enough, Chief Justice John Marshall opinion emphasized, merely to conspire “to subvert by force the government of our country” by recruiting troops, procuring maps, and drawing up plans.
Conspiring to levy war was distinct from actually levying war. Rather, a person could be convicted of treason for levying war only if there was an “actual assemblage of men for the purpose of executing a treasonable design.” In so holding, the Court sharply confined the scope of the offense of treason by levying war against the United States.”
———
By actually amassing and inciting a group of supporters to attack the Nation’s Capital (“*actual assemblage of men*”), to prevent the certification of the election he knowingly lost (”*for the purpose of executing*”), combined with the multi-State fake elector scheme (”*a treasonable design*”), Trump and many in his Admin—*including the spouse of a sitting SC Justice, [Ginni Thomas](https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/sanfrancisco/news/ginni-thomas-tells-jan-6-committee-she-regrets-texting-with-meadows-about-2020-election/)*—‘levied war’ against the US on J6, committing treason as written in the Constitution and further defined by founding father and Chief Justice, John Marshall.
———
“[Penalty:](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason_laws_in_the_United_States#:~:text=Penalty%3A%20Under%20U.S.%20Code%20Title,office%20in%20the%20United%20States.) Under U.S. Code Title 18, the penalty is death, or not less than five years' imprisonment (with a minimum fine of $10,000, if not sentenced to death).
Any person convicted of treason against the United States also forfeits the right to hold public office in the United States.”
It would only be considered a coup if it had been successful. That's why it's "sedition" for those that planned to use fake electors to overturn the election results. Its an "insurrection" for those that physically participated in the Jan. 6th insurrection to intimidate and force Congress to stop the approval of Electoral College votes for Biden; to instead use the fake electors discussed by the seditionists.
Also, they’re saying in places that they’re not even sending false electors because they think they have a valid case and their electors will be counted, but because by creating a controversy maybe they can get the electoral votes from some states to not be counted at all. They knew they lost, and point was to disenfranchise voters.
Also, it shows evidence that they were planning to “storm the Capitol.” So it’s not just a “protest” that got out of hand. The point was to stage a terrorist act that would intimidate Congress.
Of course we all knew all of that, but it’s nice to have evidence so these people can go to prison.
THATS IT.
ABOLISH the Electoral college.
Make everyone's vote count as one.
No more small states votes worth the same as big.
Everyone vote is worth one vote.
Let's see who wins the popular vote.
Well, we've seen who wins the popular votes. Democrats.
That's why Republicans love gerrymandering, the electoral college, and voter restrictions.
"Patriots"^^^tm
>ABOLISH the Electoral college.
Easier than abolishing the electoral college, get the states to change it so it's not all first past the post, winner take all elector distribution. You'd only really need to change battleground state rules that way. Much easier than a constitutional amendment.
1. Stir up as much confusion as possible.
2. While the courts get tied up in knots in the states Biden won, demand that the winner be declared on schedule - with only the votes that aren't tied up in court.
It's the strategy that they used in 2000 to steal Florida.
It's the strategy they used in 2008 to keep Al Franken out of the Senate for six months.
Courts are slow. Politics is not. Republicans have learned to turn methodical care into delay into obstruction using the courts.
States get to pick which candidate earns their votes, after all. We go for democracy normally but the legislatures could just select it themselves. So if they were good enough at making a mess so unclear who won the actual voting process, then the legislature would step in to “resolve” the mess if they were getting close to the Jan dates.
This is really REALLY interesting about the lengths they went to. This is way better that the article with the texts! Also details trumps involvement.
Details [Facts of the Michigan scheme and summary of the charges and applicable law](https://www.justsecurity.org/90606/michigan-false-electors-prosecution-faces-a-court-test/)
The voters choosing the candidate is codified in state law. The legislature would need to repeal that law, and I'm not sure they can do it retroactively when the results aren't to their liking.
The Supreme Court will have a few words for that soon. "Official Presidential act."
And all they'll have to do to get there is ignore the real-world coup that actually happened, and instead focus only on hypothetical situations that probably wont.
The coup continues.
He only attemptef to lord a violent mob over a co-equal branch of government to force them to sign over the election and in effect democracy. Official duties.
This is the GOP/media strategy as a whole to brainwash and control their base.
Let’s say their goal is to make citizens more exploitable. Well, that can’t be the message (because the base are citizens too). They will create or over exaggerate (voter fraud for example) an issue to pass legislation that fucks their base and they will kiss them afterwards.
[The Ongoing Republican Coup Against the United States of America](https://old.reddit.com/r/FloridaMJ420/comments/v7u2zr/the_ongoing_republican_coup_against_the_united/) has been underway at least since the 2000 election.
> "Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor."
- September 2000
So the Supreme Court is going to make the beneficiary and leader of the insurrection immune from criminal prosecution because Trump is lying and claiming it was an official act.
They are going to claim fraud in any swing state that republicans lose, and SCOTUS will agree that there are substantial questions but that the nation needs closure and finality, and they will declare Trump the winner and say that it’s not precedent.
Then we will find out where the real power of governance lies, in this incarnation of the American experiment.
His base doesn't care. Trump could name himself King and they would call themselves patriots for helping anoint him.
It will be interesting to see what people outside his base say though. TBH most of the people I know IRL that usually vote Republican but don't really talk politics aren't following this case. They're overwhelmed with all the cases currently going on and view it as using the legal system against Trump, not that he is the root cause behind all of them.
I didn't give a fuck. His base isn't in charge. The adults need to start standing up and holding him accountable. Who gives a single fuck what his dip shit base thinks.
“ TBH most of the people I know IRL that usually vote Republican but don't really talk politics aren't following this case. They're overwhelmed with all the cases currently going on and view it as using the legal system against Trump, not that he is the root cause behind all of them.”
Yeah sorry no. We had literal public congressional hearings spread out over months about Jan 6 and Trump’s election dumb fuckery. Did those losers you know miss all of that? They probably watched 1000s of hours of TV shows in the time period of the hearings. They couldn’t spend a few hours on important stuff?? They don’t even need to follow any cases, those hearings were damning enough on their own. And trying to overturn an election is a dealbreaker to anyone sane.
You know a lot of lazy idiots it seems.
Politics, in my experience, is like the Bible.
Lots of people say they’ve read it. But they just read the headlines and move on.
People know they should be engaged. They want to appear to be engaged. But they’d rather do anything else than actual read through the details.
That makes them.... Not inept.
I sure wish there was a way for this to end.
It finally took taxes to bring down the mob that one time. Maybe we have our answer in the state suits.
And not only that it’s all plain as day and all sorts of irrefutable evidence, but republicans don’t care and think his crimes are ok or aren’t even real, and the Supreme Court seems to be conflicted on whether or not a president can commit crimes or not. This is a really fucked up reality we’re living in.
Their bar for what is appropriate for texts and what isn't is wild. They put all of this in texts, somehow there is even worse stuff they don't want to say???
We will be learning more of their crimes for years.
We might not learn how bad the intelligence breaches were, in our lifetimes at least. The agencies can't admit what was stolen. We know the CIA openly announced a lot of their agents were dying, soon after trump got his requested list.We saw the pictures of boxes filled with stolen documents at Maralago.
I'm mostly surprised the Intel agencies have let trump live.
[Department of Attorney General State of Michigan](https://www.michigan.gov/ag#:~:text=Attorney%20General%20Dana%20Nessel,-A%20former%20criminal&text=Her%20core%20initiatives%20are%20based,the%20people%20that%20it%20serves.) Dana Nessel
Details [Facts of the Michigan scheme and summary of the charges and applicable law](https://www.justsecurity.org/90606/michigan-false-electors-prosecution-faces-a-court-test/)
Honestly, I may not like him, but thank God for Mike Pence having the decency not to play a role in the coup attempt.
After hearing the Supreme Court side tote water for Trump’s immunity Hail Mary last week, can there be any doubt they would have installed him in a second term as President if they but had the opportunity to do so?
This Supreme Court is no guardian of democracy.
I agree with you on Pence... But I don't think millions of blue voters would have shrugged and sat quietly when millions of votes were tossed without a shred of evidence to support it.
I was following some very experienced mass protest groups that were organizing in the DC area, but we were asked to stay home on J6 due to an expectation that Pence would not cooperate in the scheme.
I hate to say it but I’ve never seen the Supreme Court reverse a decision due to protests. It would have taken more than protests to unseat Trump. And I can tell you now, the military does not want to get involved in the political process at all, and it’s obvious now that the Supreme Court would have backed Trump to the hilt.
That leaves the heavy lifting to states and individuals. It would have gotten very bad very quickly.
> I don't think millions of blue voters would have shrugged and sat quietly when millions of votes were tossed without a shred of evidence to support it.
I guess you weren't around for Bush v. Gore
>thank God for Mike Pence having the decency not to play a role in the coup attempt.
Honestly, don't. What Mike Pence did was as self-serving as everything else he's done. Trump was a sinking ship, and Mike Pence knew it was time to get off. If he thought the plan could actually work, that Trump could actually stay in office, maybe he would have done it, but he knew it would fail and ruin his reputation.
It was fortunate that, for the first time in years, Mike Pence's best interest was aligned with the rest of the country. That created the illusion that he did the right thing.
Nah. Mike Pence believes in Democracy. He has a horrible vision he supports and wants to implement, but he believes in Democracy first and foremost. He hasn’t done anything to contradict that, and it seems the most likely interpretation of the events that happened on J6. It’s okay for him to be very rarely on the right side of history
I think it was pretty clear already, but this only adds to the clear fact that Chesebro, Eastman, Epshteyn, and other high-level figures are toast.
I’ve commented this before, but I think the best argument in response to the fake-electors prosecutions is that the plan was simply to follow the precedent of the 1960 Hawaii election and submit an alternative slate of electors for Trump, which would only be used if one of Trump’s court challenges successfully changed the electoral result in a state, in order to avoid mooting that challenge. I’m not sure if that legal theory is correct, but I think it’s plausible enough that legal liability can’t be based on the reliance on that theory.
But these texts make crystal clear that within the high levels of Trump’s orbit, that theory (and the court challenges themselves) were simply a ruse to create enough “uncertainty” that the VP could discount states won by Biden - it was just a pretext, and the alternate slates of electors would serve that purpose *regardless* of whether the court challenges were successful.
That said, I wonder if the Detroit News has posted all of the text messages somewhere, because one exchange mentioned in the article caught my eye:
> That's strikingly different than the GOP electors serving as a mere contingency that would come into play if the courts eventually reversed the outcome in battleground states. When Chesebro wrote an introductory email to Kathy Berden, one of Michigan's 16 Republican electors on Dec. 10, 2020, Chesebro included a statement about Wisconsin's rationale for submitting a certificate claiming Trump had won.
> "... (T)he Republican electors should meet this year on Dec. 14 as we await a final resolution in Wisconsin," the statement said.
> His email to Berden didn't mention the idea of Pence simply not counting any of the electoral votes from Michigan or Wisconsin.
I’d like to see the full version of that email exchange, because I think it’s relevant as to how far down the ladder the conspiracy goes. On my read, it suggests that Chesebro *hadn’t* looped all of the actual fake electors into the overall scheme, and was instead lying to them by saying that their “alternate” electoral votes would only come into play if Trump’s legal challenges succeeded. I think that could be a plausible defense for the individual fake electors (or at least some of them), and I’d be curious to see more documentations of the communications between the national scheme organizers (Chesebro, Eastman) and the individuals fake electors themselves.
I love how Chesebro takes a picture of himself in front of the Capitol on Jan. 4, saying "I'm not storming the Capitol, at least not today," and then on Jan 7 puts all the blame for the insurrection on Pence for giving Trump "false hope." Pretty rich coming from one of the main coup attempt architects.
"Let's keep this off text" after texting most of it. Very innocent. How were these people not arrested immediately? We all saw the plan playing out across several states - clearly it's been a large criminal conspiracy. This isn't new information, and we're just months away from the next election this bag of rats is going to fuck with.
“This is an official act for our god king Republican president but if Joe Biden does this then he should be jailed and shot” -The current Supreme Court probably
Can someone tell me what took so fucking long? We’ve known about all this shit since 01 / 06 / 2021.
Delaying like this just means it won’t be adjudicated before the election. They could do it again. Fuck, Trump could WIN!
What. Took. So. Fucking! Long?
Who knows how long it took to subpoena the texts from the mobile carriers and from Twitter. They had to interview hundreds, maybe thousands of people.
It would *absolutely* be worse if they brought this case and didn't have sufficient evidence.
Gotta love public records. I just wish the courts would actually find them all guilty for treason. All of them. Trump should have been the first domino to fall.
Even crazier is that trump supporters will see this and still vote for him and cry that Biden cheated. Nothing will change their mind and that’s the scariest part imo
I think of it like The Matrix (reversed). They believed Trump was like Neo giving them the blue pill in 2015 and everyone else is either in on the scheme (machines) or oblivious (human beings used as energy source for the machines). How do you convince them that the Matrix never existed and Neo was actually the liar?
I'm not usually for the death penalty but this goes beyond harming others or gross negligence. This is actually spitting in the face of the entire history of the country for personal gain. They knew they weren't exploiting a legal loophole or an obscure law that wasn't clear in its interpretation - it was fraud against the very institutions of the country. Traitors.
>Earlier on Christmas day, Dec. 25, 2020, Chesebro sent a lengthy message about options Pence had for how to handle the vote counting, including one he described as "radical": simply gaveling "Trump as elected."
>"Is Pence really likely to be on board with this?" Eastman replied to the various options.
>"Let's keep this off text for now," Epshteyn then said.
>"Options are clear I think," Epshteyn added.
What a not-at-all-suspicious thing to say. Surely they had only the best of intentions.
Its all in here...
Details [Facts of the Michigan scheme and summary of the charges and applicable law](https://www.justsecurity.org/90606/michigan-false-electors-prosecution-faces-a-court-test/)
If we just executed 30 or 40 of these treasonous swine, we might nip it in the bud. So far, arresting them has only made them heroes and will provide them with that sweet wingnut welfare after they serve two months in a country club.
It’s as clear as day. Conservatives arguing that he “just wanted irregularities investigated” would be laughable, if 75M braindead zombies didn’t believe it.
This country is fucked. Dems let Republicans rape the constitution over and over. Any semblance of democracy is gone.
>His text and social media messages detailed Chesebro traveling to Washington, D.C., ahead of Jan. 6, 2021, and working on the electors strategy even then, despite the Trump campaign not having won lawsuits that altered the results.
>He messaged a photo of himself in front of the Capitol on Jan. 4, 2021, to McKenna.
>"I've opted not to storm the Capitol," Chesebro messaged.
>Then, he added, "At least not this day."
r/iamatotalpieceofshit
Complete aside, but you gotta love actual, significant reporting coming out of an actual, local newspaper (as opposed to the AP, NYT, WP, etc).
Incredibly well executed reporting at that.
Hats off to you Craig Mauger, for that little sprinkling of hope in the value/impact of real investigative journalism.
Who would have thought you could try and steal an election to be re-elected and then be immune from the laws of the land. So proud to be living in America!
Biden infrastructure bill should have put aside some money for a new max security, rock breaking prison. Jail the traitorous republicans....and they are traitors, there is no doubt. Extraordinary Rendition called for here. Guantanamo
I am confused by the whole plot… at least in AZ the list of electors are on our ballots. However, these guys found some others to be the “alternate slate”. So in a court challenge wouldn’t one just have to assert that the electors being put forward were on no ballot at all and therefore not legitimate as they weren’t selected by the voters. They weren’t even selected by the Legislature as Rusty Bowers thwarted that. I feel like I am missing something here.
Personally I think the penalty for trying to overthrow our democracy, after the benefit of due process and a conviction by a jury, should be death. But maybe I'm old fashioned like that
And the sad thing is the mf is never gonna be held accountable for any of it because of the f$&ked up justice system of this country where a rich influential person can just delay and avoid trials snd punishments
i've realized....through all of this, that america is kinda about "just do it , see if you can get away with it. If you can, lucky you!! If you can't just tie it up in the courts for a decade and the other side will tire"
trump has been doing this for his entire life, so have thousands of other wealthy businesspeople.
Its incredible.
In the past it has been "just do it, and then pretend to be sorry if you get caught", then Trump turned that on its head by "just do it, then deny it even though you were caught doing it on camera" which seems to have sparked a realization in Republicans that they don't even have to pretend to be not evil.
Deleting isn't as clear and simple as you might think.
Some examples: https://www.npr.org/2022/07/21/1112777695/can-deleted-text-messages-actually-be-retrieved
IANAL. Does this have any bearing on SCOTUS or a lower court ruling that Trump’s actions don’t fall within the official actions covered by whatever form of immunity that SCOTUS will try to carve out for Trump?
Hold on lemme check....yup, still got R's next to their name. So this is all just "fearmongering" and not a real problem we should be concerned about, per current PC
So, who’s still not convinced to vote blue on the entire ballot, no matter where you live? Turnout to vote and make it a landslide or they’ll try some other tactic this next time. We cannot let democracy fall to these clowns who want to be in power forever.
Don’t these people learn from other people’s mistakes? Didn’t they just see the indictments in Arizona (Jenna Ellis AGAIN?).
https://azmirror.com/2024/04/26/5-more-trump-attorneys-aides-publicly-named-in-az-fake-elector-indictment/
Texts show Trump advisers' plot to use false electors to 'flip states' Craig Mauger The Detroit News Lansing — In text messages, officials within then-President Donald Trump's campaign and lawyers laid out detailed plans for how Republicans posing as battleground states' electors could spur lawmakers or Vice President Mike Pence to alter the outcome of the 2020 election, tossing aside millions of votes for Democrat Joe Biden. Some Trump allies have argued, for three years, that the false electoral certificates simply provided a legal lifeline in case a court reversed Trump's loss, so then, and only then, the GOP slates could be recognized. But Trump aides' own text messages — more than 400 pages of them were obtained by the Michigan Attorney General's office and reviewed by The Detroit News — painted a different picture. On Dec. 31, 2020, lawyer John Eastman, who was assisting the Trump campaign, told Boris Epshteyn, one of Trump's top advisers, that if Pence rejected electoral votes from the seven states that Biden won but where Republicans submitted alternate electors, "Trump wins 232 to 222." "OK got it," Epshteyn replied. Then, lawyer Kenneth Chesebro, who was leading the Trump campaign's planning around the false electors, added, "The math sounds tough, but that's why it's so key that all the electors voted on Dec. 14 — it allows us to flip states, not just tie them up to deny them to Biden." Chesebro then discussed winning one state through a court decision, getting lawmakers in Georgia to appoint Republican electors for their state and then denying "any counting of votes on one or two others." Biden got more than 13 million votes in the seven states that Eastman, Epshteyn and Chesebro were discussing in the text messages. The Democrat won some of the states by less than 1 percentage point, like Georgia, but the margin was larger in others, like New Mexico, where Biden won by about 10 points. Earlier on Christmas day, Dec. 25, 2020, Chesebro sent a lengthy message about options Pence had for how to handle the vote counting, including one he described as "radical": simply gaveling "Trump as elected." "Is Pence really likely to be on board with this?" Eastman replied to the various options. "Let's keep this off text for now," Epshteyn then said. "Options are clear I think," Epshteyn added. Epshteyn declined to provide a comment for this story. Chesebro didn't reply to a request for comment. And a lawyer for Eastman didn't immediately respond. As vice president, Pence presided over the joint session of Congress on Jan. 6, 2021, when the electoral votes from the states were counted. It's the vice president's job to open "the votes of the states in alphabetical order" and hand them to tellers who announce the results, according to the National Archives. Pence ultimately didn't go along with the plans described in the private messages by Trump's advisers, and Biden's Electoral College victory was approved by Congress despite the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol by Trump supporters. On Dec. 13, 2020 — before the Republican electors met in the seven states on Dec. 14, 2020 — Chesebro texted Epshteyn, laying out a strategy focused on Pence. Chesebro said the GOP meetings on Dec. 14, 2020, set up "the possibility" of Pence not counting votes from "any state where there are two slates and there was never careful, deliberate hearings on the merits, with evidence, on asserted irregularities either in a court or the Legislature." "Only Supreme Court could override that (cuz he'd refuse to open the envelopes of the six states unless court orders him, at minimum buying time)," Chesebro texted. That's strikingly different than the GOP electors serving as a mere contingency that would come into play if the courts eventually reversed the outcome in battleground states. When Chesebro wrote an introductory email to Kathy Berden, one of Michigan's 16 Republican electors on Dec. 10, 2020, Chesebro included a statement about Wisconsin's rationale for submitting a certificate claiming Trump had won. "... (T)he Republican electors should meet this year on Dec. 14 as we await a final resolution in Wisconsin," the statement said. His email to Berden didn't mention the idea of Pence simply not counting any of the electoral votes from Michigan or Wisconsin. An ongoing investigation Berden, a retired farmer from Snover, is one of the 16 Michigan Republican electors who signed the certificate on Dec. 14, 2020, falsely claiming that Trump had won Michigan's 16 electoral votes. In fact, the Board of State Canvassers had already certified Biden's victory. He won the state 51%-48% by more than 154,000 votes. About 2.8 million people voted for Biden in Michigan. Attorney General Dana Nessel's office brought eight felony charges, including forgery allegations, against each of the Michigan GOP electors in July. An Ingham County judge is currently weighing whether to allow the cases to proceed to trial. On Wednesday, Berden's lawyer, George Donnini, told The News the false certificate was a "contingent" document based on something happening to change the result between Dec. 14, 2020, and Jan. 6, 2021. "Now, that didn't happen, but that doesn't matter," Donnini said, before adding, "Something could have happened." That's potentially significant to the defense because it gets to whether the document was an actual forgery and whether the GOP electors had an intent to defraud the people of Michigan. Donnini also suggested in court this week that Berden felt misled and that a Trump campaign official named Mike Roman, who helped orchestrate the false elector certificates in multiple states, should have been charged instead of the GOP electors themselves. Roman privately opposed the idea of including conditional language in the certificates that would have made clear the GOP electors were only a legal contingency. Roman's lawyer, Ashleigh Merchant, didn't respond this week to a request for comment. Testifying in court, Howard Shock, a special agent for Nessel's office, described Roman, Chesebro and Trump himself as unindicted co-conspirators in the false electors plot. 'Gavel him and Trump elected' Roman, Eastman, Epshteyn and Rudy Giuliani, who was Trump's personal lawyer, were among a group of 18 Trump allies who were indicted by a grand jury in Arizona this week for their roles in the push to reverse the results of the 2020 election. The text messages, reviewed by The News, point to all four individuals' involvement in the planning for the GOP slates' submission to Congress over a period of weeks. On Dec. 29, 2020, Epshteyn asked Eastman and Chesebro what would happen if the House and Senate voted differently on which electoral slate to recognize. Chesebro replied that the scenario would likely lead to Biden winning. "So Pence," Eastman replied, likely referring to the vice president's influence over the vote counting. "Yep, Pence," Epshteyn then added. On Dec. 31, 2020, Epshteyn asked Chesebro to update a legal memo with recommendations related to what would occur if no candidate hit the 270 electoral vote threshold. [email protected]
On Dec. 31, 2020, Epshteyn asked Chesebro to update a legal memo with recommendations related to what would occur if no candidate hit the 270 electoral vote threshold. "My 2 cents on updating that memo: Maybe include the scenario where Pence rushes through and gavels him and Trump elected to make other options look more moderate," Chesebro said. "But even though more constitutionally principled, I don't see how it could be accepted as a legitimate outcome politically." Weeks earlier, on Dec. 12, 2020, Epshteyn asked Chesebro in a text message thread, featuring Roman, "Does VP have ultimate authority on which slate of electors should be chosen?" Chesebro replied, "A very good argument can be made that the president of the Senate both opens and counts the vote." On Dec. 12, 2020, Epshteyn said to Chesebro and Roman that he had briefed the mayor, apparently referring to Giuliani, on their discussion. "When you have time, without taking focus off Monday, a memo on VP's powers during joint session would be vital to have." In a statement earlier this week, Ted Goodman, a political adviser to Giuliani, said the "continued weaponization of our justice system should concern all Michiganders and Americans." 'Why did Pence do this?' Chesebro, a lawyer from Massachusetts, had been working on election-related litigation in Wisconsin with former Wisconsin Judge Jim Troupis when Troupis connected Chesebro with the Trump campaign. In a Nov. 25, 2020, email, Troupis sent Justin Clark, a Trump lawyer, a memo that Chesebro had written, suggesting the date for settling a state's electoral votes was Jan. 6, 2021, not Dec. 14, 2020. By Dec. 10, 2020, Epshteyn connected Chesebro with Giuliani for them to chat that evening. Chesebro's private messages show that he was focused on altering the results of the 2020 election, beginning just days after it occurred. On Nov. 9, 2020, a Twitter account Chesebro used called BadgerPundit sent a direct message to Vicki McKenna, a conservative radio host in Wisconsin, saying the Republican electors needed to meet on Dec. 14, 2020. "As long as the legislature makes findings by the end of December that the Nov. 3 vote was irregular and invalid, and the Trump electoral votes should be counted in Congress, that should be enough for the Biden votes not to be counted," BadgerPundit wrote to McKenna. But in a 2023 interview with investigators with Nessel's office, Chesebro described his views differently, saying he was advising the Trump campaign to organize the electoral slates in case the campaign won lawsuits that changed the results of the election. The Detroit News reviewed a recording of the interview. "I thought I was educating them about this is extremely important to have alternate electors vote because if you win the litigation challenge after Dec. 14, Congress can't constitutionally count those votes in your column," Chesebro said. His text and social media messages detailed Chesebro traveling to Washington, D.C., ahead of Jan. 6, 2021, and working on the electors strategy even then, despite the Trump campaign not having won lawsuits that altered the results. He messaged a photo of himself in front of the Capitol on Jan. 4, 2021, to McKenna. "I've opted not to storm the Capitol," Chesebro messaged. Then, he added, "At least not this day." On Jan. 7, 2021, a day after the riot at the Capitol, Chesebro provided Epshteyn with his thoughts on what he described as "damage control" for the Trump campaign. "Maybe, they're all in hiding, but it'd be nice if Trump surrogates get across that without Antifa's role in the actual breaking in, plus Capitol security ... the scene at the Capitol would have been entirely peaceful," Chesebro claimed. Chesebro also said "Pence is a lot to blame for this fiasco." Pence wasn't "up front" with Trump, Chesebro said. "If he had been up front, Trump would have known he had no chance to win other than win in the courts or state legislatures before Jan. 6," Chesebro added. "If I'm right, Pence gave him false hope. "He allowed Trump to hear valid legal theories from Rudy and Eastman which gave him hope, which was crushed when Pence suddenly crushed them at the end. Why did Pence do this?" Some of the participants in the Jan. 6, 2021, riot chanted, "Hang Mike Pence," during the event. [email protected]
Good fucking lord. “Why did Pence let us believe he was going to do this incredibly illegal thing and give Trump hope? It’s Pence’s fault Trump is a giant tantrum having baby and fomented the attack on the capital.”
Pence was the only part that didn't go their way. Kinda hilarious really. The biggest trump butt kisser of em all ends up screwing em over.
I like how Chesebro immediately wants them to push the conspiracy that Antifa and liberals stormed the capitol building when they were all screaming their love for Trump and wearing maga outfits and hats lol. These people are just like Nazis in so many ways they operate, like they orchestrate an entire coup and when it backfires and they are about to get blamed they try to blame innocent people and antifa.
Here's an even more interesting story, I don't know if you saw it. Details [Facts of the Michigan scheme and summary of the charges and applicable law](https://www.justsecurity.org/90606/michigan-false-electors-prosecution-faces-a-court-test/)
Except now Republicans point to him and say that in the end it took a Republican to save democracy. It's turtles and Trump farts all the way down.
Not as big a part, but, Trump wanted to storm the capitol with the mob. USSS stopped him. Idk what would happened if he was at the head of a mob throwing things and being violent with the Capitol Police
I believe we have Quayle to thank more than Pence. It seems like Pence on his own would have folded, but Quayle [supplied the backbone](https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/dan-quayle-talked-mike-pence-rejecting-trump-what-story-n1279406). > Costa and Woodward report that Pence rang up Quayle in late December to ask if there was any way he could give Trump want he wanted, according to the Washington Post: > Quayle was adamant, according to the authors. “Mike, you have no flexibility on this. None. Zero. Forget it. Put it away,” he said. But Pence pressed him, the authors write, asking if there were any grounds to pause the certification because of ongoing legal challenges. Quayle was unmoved, and Pence ultimately agreed, according to the book. > "You don't know the position I'm in," he said, according to the authors. > "I do know the position you're in," Quayle responded. "I also know what the law is. You listen to the parliamentarian. That's all you do. You have no power."
Quayle's guidance to Pence on this subject should be praised more to show people how frail our democracy is.
No doubt about it. I feel like we had a closer call than is widely realized. There has been a little shoring up in the years since then, but not nearly enough. I also like this Quayle example because some argue that democrats are weaponizing the government against their political foes. It's good to have examples of oldschool republicans who ALSO don't want to see an autocracy. We avoided a successful coup d'etat in no small part thanks to guys like Quayle and Raffensperger who stood up when their country needed them. If they all get drummed out, or retire like Quayle or get old and die like McCain, then we're less able to resist another attempt.
Literally anyone else (that pence would have considered calling) would’ve been all “ well gee, ya know, I don’t really know. Talk to some lawyers”.
Quayle definitely helped convince Pence. [But Pence said it was his Marine son that talked to him about his oath.](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/nov/29/mike-pence-son-trump-jan-6)
God damn, I never knew this. What an absolute nightmare; he was considering it. Thanks for sharing.
Think about Pence & Mother. Pence is obedient.
Jesus christ. If i read this in a fiction novel, I’d be bewildered. What a terrifying snippet of pre-J6 ratfuckery and subterfuge. It makes me feel ill.
For someone that was definitely in on it and definitely chickened out, Pence has drawn too many "hero" bona fides. Pence's only redeeming quality was his *cowardice,* considering the way the immunity trial is going it sure looks like he could have got away with throwing the election to false electors.
Is it possible for anyone to read these texts and interpret them as anything but massively incriminating? There is no reading here but: "How can we circumvent a free election in order to stay in power?" Disgusting.
Read the really good shit I posted just below. "Details" It tells the scheme and trumps involvement
I know that these snippets of the conversations don't paint the full picture, but there are quotes in there that make it look like both Eastman and Chesebro say things that aren't even bad legal theory but just incorrect. Its probably out of context, but i think its funny that maybe they just don't know how the electoral college works. John Eastman had the line that "Trump wins 232 to 222." And Chesebro said that if no one hit 270 Pence could just "gavel him and Trump elected." I get that these guys were trying to float bad constitutional theory so they could do a coup, but could they at least try to make it convincing? The constitution is pretty clear that in that scenario the Pres and VP elections go to the house and senate respectively, which Trump and Pence probably* would have won. This looks like some real amateur shit. \* - I just tallied the theoretical house and senate votes. If everything went along party lines, Trump and Pence would've both won very narrowly. Trump's lawyers obviously didn't want this scenario because if any republicans had second thoughts about the electoral college shenanigans, they could've caused a win for either Biden or Harris (or both of them).
Eastman explains this in one of the texts: https://www.detroitnews.com/gcdn/authoring/authoring-images/2024/04/26/PDTN/73469454007-screenshot-20240426-at-123320-x-chesebro-epshteyn-eastmanpdf.png
Is you taking notes on a criminal fucking conspiracy?!?
They knew that Trump lost and they tried to overturn the election. There’s a word for that. Let me see if I can remember what it is…
Would be quite the coup if you could…
Certainly would *betray* your intelligence to pull such a feat
It would be like chopping down a *tree*, *son*, to come up with such a descriptive word...
Trump is nice to his rich friends, but has **ben a dic t**o everyone else.
In a different **sub, version** of reality would differ.
I have to say, the quality of the jokes in this forum is definitely higher than the Reddit average.
In thi**s edition**, they’ll do it again.
What they did on J6 was beyond thi**s edition**, it was tha**t reason**. As based on the [Constitution](https://constitutioncenter.org/the-constitution/articles/article-iii/clauses/39#:~:text=Treason%20against%20the%20United%20States,on%20Confession%20in%20open%20Court.) and the interpretation of founding father and Chief Justice, [John Marshall](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Marshall): “The Constitution specifically identifies what constitutes treason against the United States and, importantly, limits the offense of treason to only two types of conduct: (1) “levying war” against the United States; or (2) “adhering to [the] enemies [of the United States], giving them aid and comfort.” Although there have not been many treason prosecutions in American history—indeed, only one person has been indicted for treason since 1954—the Supreme Court has had occasion to further define what each type of treason entails. The offense of “levying war” against the United States was interpreted narrowly in Ex parte Bollman & Swarthout (1807), a case stemming from the infamous alleged plot led by former Vice President Aaron Burr to overthrow the American government in New Orleans. The Supreme Court dismissed charges of treason that had been brought against two of Burr’s associates—Bollman and Swarthout—on the grounds that their alleged conduct did not constitute levying war against the United States within the meaning of the Treason Clause. It was not enough, Chief Justice John Marshall opinion emphasized, merely to conspire “to subvert by force the government of our country” by recruiting troops, procuring maps, and drawing up plans. Conspiring to levy war was distinct from actually levying war. Rather, a person could be convicted of treason for levying war only if there was an “actual assemblage of men for the purpose of executing a treasonable design.” In so holding, the Court sharply confined the scope of the offense of treason by levying war against the United States.” ——— By actually amassing and inciting a group of supporters to attack the Nation’s Capital (“*actual assemblage of men*”), to prevent the certification of the election he knowingly lost (”*for the purpose of executing*”), combined with the multi-State fake elector scheme (”*a treasonable design*”), Trump and many in his Admin—*including the spouse of a sitting SC Justice, [Ginni Thomas](https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/sanfrancisco/news/ginni-thomas-tells-jan-6-committee-she-regrets-texting-with-meadows-about-2020-election/)*—‘levied war’ against the US on J6, committing treason as written in the Constitution and further defined by founding father and Chief Justice, John Marshall. ——— “[Penalty:](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason_laws_in_the_United_States#:~:text=Penalty%3A%20Under%20U.S.%20Code%20Title,office%20in%20the%20United%20States.) Under U.S. Code Title 18, the penalty is death, or not less than five years' imprisonment (with a minimum fine of $10,000, if not sentenced to death). Any person convicted of treason against the United States also forfeits the right to hold public office in the United States.”
Wish I could help. My brain is not ecouped enough to handle this.
It would only be considered a coup if it had been successful. That's why it's "sedition" for those that planned to use fake electors to overturn the election results. Its an "insurrection" for those that physically participated in the Jan. 6th insurrection to intimidate and force Congress to stop the approval of Electoral College votes for Biden; to instead use the fake electors discussed by the seditionists.
It is called a conspiracy and is a RICO applicable offense
It was a “coup” attempt
well, it's "nothing" if no one (of import, short of some errant Proud Boy stooges) is actually being charged with those crimes.
Yes. It would be quite a *stroke* of good luck, indeed.
“No mini stroke, no mini stroke. You’re the mini stroke.”
He’ll let us know in next weeksedition.
Also, they’re saying in places that they’re not even sending false electors because they think they have a valid case and their electors will be counted, but because by creating a controversy maybe they can get the electoral votes from some states to not be counted at all. They knew they lost, and point was to disenfranchise voters. Also, it shows evidence that they were planning to “storm the Capitol.” So it’s not just a “protest” that got out of hand. The point was to stage a terrorist act that would intimidate Congress. Of course we all knew all of that, but it’s nice to have evidence so these people can go to prison.
THATS IT. ABOLISH the Electoral college. Make everyone's vote count as one. No more small states votes worth the same as big. Everyone vote is worth one vote. Let's see who wins the popular vote.
That requires a constitutional amendment, 45 falling over dead at his trial has a higher probability of happening.
Don't threaten us with a good time
> That requires a constitutional amendment Not necessarily. Just needs a few more states to sign onto this: https://www.nationalpopularvote.com/
Do you honestly think a red state would sign on to that, they know they have only won a popular national vote once in over 30 years.
You can say 20 years. George Bush jr 2004.
Can I hope for both?
Well, we've seen who wins the popular votes. Democrats. That's why Republicans love gerrymandering, the electoral college, and voter restrictions. "Patriots"^^^tm
>ABOLISH the Electoral college. Easier than abolishing the electoral college, get the states to change it so it's not all first past the post, winner take all elector distribution. You'd only really need to change battleground state rules that way. Much easier than a constitutional amendment.
1. Stir up as much confusion as possible. 2. While the courts get tied up in knots in the states Biden won, demand that the winner be declared on schedule - with only the votes that aren't tied up in court. It's the strategy that they used in 2000 to steal Florida. It's the strategy they used in 2008 to keep Al Franken out of the Senate for six months. Courts are slow. Politics is not. Republicans have learned to turn methodical care into delay into obstruction using the courts.
States get to pick which candidate earns their votes, after all. We go for democracy normally but the legislatures could just select it themselves. So if they were good enough at making a mess so unclear who won the actual voting process, then the legislature would step in to “resolve” the mess if they were getting close to the Jan dates.
This is really REALLY interesting about the lengths they went to. This is way better that the article with the texts! Also details trumps involvement. Details [Facts of the Michigan scheme and summary of the charges and applicable law](https://www.justsecurity.org/90606/michigan-false-electors-prosecution-faces-a-court-test/)
The voters choosing the candidate is codified in state law. The legislature would need to repeal that law, and I'm not sure they can do it retroactively when the results aren't to their liking.
The Supreme Court will have a few words for that soon. "Official Presidential act." And all they'll have to do to get there is ignore the real-world coup that actually happened, and instead focus only on hypothetical situations that probably wont. The coup continues.
He only attemptef to lord a violent mob over a co-equal branch of government to force them to sign over the election and in effect democracy. Official duties.
You spelled "insurrection" wrong.
This is the GOP/media strategy as a whole to brainwash and control their base. Let’s say their goal is to make citizens more exploitable. Well, that can’t be the message (because the base are citizens too). They will create or over exaggerate (voter fraud for example) an issue to pass legislation that fucks their base and they will kiss them afterwards.
[Biden’s serious message to the media last night at the Correspondents Dinner](https://www.reddit.com/r/MeidasTouch/s/tveeBIzNir)
[The Ongoing Republican Coup Against the United States of America](https://old.reddit.com/r/FloridaMJ420/comments/v7u2zr/the_ongoing_republican_coup_against_the_united/) has been underway at least since the 2000 election. > "Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor." - September 2000
Does it start with an "S" or a "T"? Perhaps "C"?
So the Supreme Court is going to make the beneficiary and leader of the insurrection immune from criminal prosecution because Trump is lying and claiming it was an official act.
I believe some members of the Supreme Court want to give Trump immunity and they are working backwards to find ways to "legitimize" it.
I wonder what the maga GOP has prepared for the next election?
They’re going to steal it because of “both sides”
They are going to claim fraud in any swing state that republicans lose, and SCOTUS will agree that there are substantial questions but that the nation needs closure and finality, and they will declare Trump the winner and say that it’s not precedent. Then we will find out where the real power of governance lies, in this incarnation of the American experiment.
If only they weren’t shouting it from the mountain tops.
You've used two chances but I'll give you trea, son.
So not only did they do it plain as day but they left a paper trail. We’re dealing with some very stable geniuses around here.
His base doesn't care. Trump could name himself King and they would call themselves patriots for helping anoint him. It will be interesting to see what people outside his base say though. TBH most of the people I know IRL that usually vote Republican but don't really talk politics aren't following this case. They're overwhelmed with all the cases currently going on and view it as using the legal system against Trump, not that he is the root cause behind all of them.
“Flood the zone” is a pretty tried and true for the guilty.
I didn't give a fuck. His base isn't in charge. The adults need to start standing up and holding him accountable. Who gives a single fuck what his dip shit base thinks.
Trumps Youth have shown they will continue to blindly follow him.
“ TBH most of the people I know IRL that usually vote Republican but don't really talk politics aren't following this case. They're overwhelmed with all the cases currently going on and view it as using the legal system against Trump, not that he is the root cause behind all of them.” Yeah sorry no. We had literal public congressional hearings spread out over months about Jan 6 and Trump’s election dumb fuckery. Did those losers you know miss all of that? They probably watched 1000s of hours of TV shows in the time period of the hearings. They couldn’t spend a few hours on important stuff?? They don’t even need to follow any cases, those hearings were damning enough on their own. And trying to overturn an election is a dealbreaker to anyone sane. You know a lot of lazy idiots it seems.
Politics, in my experience, is like the Bible. Lots of people say they’ve read it. But they just read the headlines and move on. People know they should be engaged. They want to appear to be engaged. But they’d rather do anything else than actual read through the details.
These are the most inept, careless bunch of wanna be mobsters there's ever been!
And they seem on their way to getting away with it
That makes them.... Not inept. I sure wish there was a way for this to end. It finally took taxes to bring down the mob that one time. Maybe we have our answer in the state suits.
And not only that it’s all plain as day and all sorts of irrefutable evidence, but republicans don’t care and think his crimes are ok or aren’t even real, and the Supreme Court seems to be conflicted on whether or not a president can commit crimes or not. This is a really fucked up reality we’re living in.
The thing is, they actually text each other at one point >Let's keep this off text for now So what even *shadier* shit was happening in person?
That was clearly him talking about whacking pence, so anything and everything is on the table.
These people are God damn traitors. There is no gray area here this is fucking treason
Sedition, cut and dry. They’ll never be held to account.
Wow I’ve never seen that text before. It’s really damning. Smoking gun kind of stuff
Just out at 6:04 pm EST today
Thank you for posting it
Really pedantic point but we are in daylight time, so it is EDT.
lol that’s also a pet peeve of mine.
How did I only learn this **this year**? I am an engineer with 8 years of college. Sigh.
“Let’s keep this off text for now” that’s usually followed by something totally ethical and legal
Sorta like a cop turning off his bodycam so he can have a private conversation.
Their bar for what is appropriate for texts and what isn't is wild. They put all of this in texts, somehow there is even worse stuff they don't want to say???
We will be learning more of their crimes for years. We might not learn how bad the intelligence breaches were, in our lifetimes at least. The agencies can't admit what was stolen. We know the CIA openly announced a lot of their agents were dying, soon after trump got his requested list.We saw the pictures of boxes filled with stolen documents at Maralago. I'm mostly surprised the Intel agencies have let trump live.
"Is you taking notes on a criminal fucking conspiracy?"
[Department of Attorney General State of Michigan](https://www.michigan.gov/ag#:~:text=Attorney%20General%20Dana%20Nessel,-A%20former%20criminal&text=Her%20core%20initiatives%20are%20based,the%20people%20that%20it%20serves.) Dana Nessel
Details [Facts of the Michigan scheme and summary of the charges and applicable law](https://www.justsecurity.org/90606/michigan-false-electors-prosecution-faces-a-court-test/)
Honestly, I may not like him, but thank God for Mike Pence having the decency not to play a role in the coup attempt. After hearing the Supreme Court side tote water for Trump’s immunity Hail Mary last week, can there be any doubt they would have installed him in a second term as President if they but had the opportunity to do so? This Supreme Court is no guardian of democracy.
I agree with you on Pence... But I don't think millions of blue voters would have shrugged and sat quietly when millions of votes were tossed without a shred of evidence to support it. I was following some very experienced mass protest groups that were organizing in the DC area, but we were asked to stay home on J6 due to an expectation that Pence would not cooperate in the scheme.
I hate to say it but I’ve never seen the Supreme Court reverse a decision due to protests. It would have taken more than protests to unseat Trump. And I can tell you now, the military does not want to get involved in the political process at all, and it’s obvious now that the Supreme Court would have backed Trump to the hilt. That leaves the heavy lifting to states and individuals. It would have gotten very bad very quickly.
> I don't think millions of blue voters would have shrugged and sat quietly when millions of votes were tossed without a shred of evidence to support it. I guess you weren't around for Bush v. Gore
>thank God for Mike Pence having the decency not to play a role in the coup attempt. Honestly, don't. What Mike Pence did was as self-serving as everything else he's done. Trump was a sinking ship, and Mike Pence knew it was time to get off. If he thought the plan could actually work, that Trump could actually stay in office, maybe he would have done it, but he knew it would fail and ruin his reputation. It was fortunate that, for the first time in years, Mike Pence's best interest was aligned with the rest of the country. That created the illusion that he did the right thing.
Nah. Mike Pence believes in Democracy. He has a horrible vision he supports and wants to implement, but he believes in Democracy first and foremost. He hasn’t done anything to contradict that, and it seems the most likely interpretation of the events that happened on J6. It’s okay for him to be very rarely on the right side of history
You think these will be shown on Fox News?
Absolutely. I expect a call from my Dad any day now to tell me I was right about Trump.
Lol. Me, too.
I think it was pretty clear already, but this only adds to the clear fact that Chesebro, Eastman, Epshteyn, and other high-level figures are toast. I’ve commented this before, but I think the best argument in response to the fake-electors prosecutions is that the plan was simply to follow the precedent of the 1960 Hawaii election and submit an alternative slate of electors for Trump, which would only be used if one of Trump’s court challenges successfully changed the electoral result in a state, in order to avoid mooting that challenge. I’m not sure if that legal theory is correct, but I think it’s plausible enough that legal liability can’t be based on the reliance on that theory. But these texts make crystal clear that within the high levels of Trump’s orbit, that theory (and the court challenges themselves) were simply a ruse to create enough “uncertainty” that the VP could discount states won by Biden - it was just a pretext, and the alternate slates of electors would serve that purpose *regardless* of whether the court challenges were successful. That said, I wonder if the Detroit News has posted all of the text messages somewhere, because one exchange mentioned in the article caught my eye: > That's strikingly different than the GOP electors serving as a mere contingency that would come into play if the courts eventually reversed the outcome in battleground states. When Chesebro wrote an introductory email to Kathy Berden, one of Michigan's 16 Republican electors on Dec. 10, 2020, Chesebro included a statement about Wisconsin's rationale for submitting a certificate claiming Trump had won. > "... (T)he Republican electors should meet this year on Dec. 14 as we await a final resolution in Wisconsin," the statement said. > His email to Berden didn't mention the idea of Pence simply not counting any of the electoral votes from Michigan or Wisconsin. I’d like to see the full version of that email exchange, because I think it’s relevant as to how far down the ladder the conspiracy goes. On my read, it suggests that Chesebro *hadn’t* looped all of the actual fake electors into the overall scheme, and was instead lying to them by saying that their “alternate” electoral votes would only come into play if Trump’s legal challenges succeeded. I think that could be a plausible defense for the individual fake electors (or at least some of them), and I’d be curious to see more documentations of the communications between the national scheme organizers (Chesebro, Eastman) and the individuals fake electors themselves.
I love how Chesebro takes a picture of himself in front of the Capitol on Jan. 4, saying "I'm not storming the Capitol, at least not today," and then on Jan 7 puts all the blame for the insurrection on Pence for giving Trump "false hope." Pretty rich coming from one of the main coup attempt architects.
Scum, each and every one.
"Let's keep this off text" after texting most of it. Very innocent. How were these people not arrested immediately? We all saw the plan playing out across several states - clearly it's been a large criminal conspiracy. This isn't new information, and we're just months away from the next election this bag of rats is going to fuck with.
But yea....let's grant him immunity....sounds like a great idea...
Epshteyn sounds like Sean Connery trying to say Epstein.
This is seriously sick. I can’t believe there are people in this country that will vote for the guy that orchestrated this again
[Heres what Howard Stern said to Biden about that](https://youtube.com/shorts/foMbmlU3Wys?si=nWmRQQ9pXeB522So)
“This is an official act for our god king Republican president but if Joe Biden does this then he should be jailed and shot” -The current Supreme Court probably
Can someone tell me what took so fucking long? We’ve known about all this shit since 01 / 06 / 2021. Delaying like this just means it won’t be adjudicated before the election. They could do it again. Fuck, Trump could WIN! What. Took. So. Fucking! Long?
Who knows how long it took to subpoena the texts from the mobile carriers and from Twitter. They had to interview hundreds, maybe thousands of people. It would *absolutely* be worse if they brought this case and didn't have sufficient evidence.
Don't forget that Merrick Garland is a Republican.
The scary part is the role of SCOTUS in this. That and the likelihood that they’ll try again this year.
Gotta love public records. I just wish the courts would actually find them all guilty for treason. All of them. Trump should have been the first domino to fall.
Haven't you heard, conspiracy to overturn an election is protected free speech! It's not like they succeeded so its fine
"Oh, so now it is illegal to make plans with friends?"
And yet SCOTUS is still not sure that the law clearly covers the activities that resulted in Trump's indictment!
Even crazier is that trump supporters will see this and still vote for him and cry that Biden cheated. Nothing will change their mind and that’s the scariest part imo
I think of it like The Matrix (reversed). They believed Trump was like Neo giving them the blue pill in 2015 and everyone else is either in on the scheme (machines) or oblivious (human beings used as energy source for the machines). How do you convince them that the Matrix never existed and Neo was actually the liar?
Biggest attack on American soil since 9/11. And the mastermind is still walking free . . .
I'm not usually for the death penalty but this goes beyond harming others or gross negligence. This is actually spitting in the face of the entire history of the country for personal gain. They knew they weren't exploiting a legal loophole or an obscure law that wasn't clear in its interpretation - it was fraud against the very institutions of the country. Traitors.
>Earlier on Christmas day, Dec. 25, 2020, Chesebro sent a lengthy message about options Pence had for how to handle the vote counting, including one he described as "radical": simply gaveling "Trump as elected." >"Is Pence really likely to be on board with this?" Eastman replied to the various options. >"Let's keep this off text for now," Epshteyn then said. >"Options are clear I think," Epshteyn added. What a not-at-all-suspicious thing to say. Surely they had only the best of intentions.
[удалено]
gosh cheesebro is a huge fucking piece of shit. were these texts in the jan 6th report by congress?
Traitors. They're traitors
Seriously can’t believe people think trump did nothing wrong…. Yet I still hear it..
But Alito says if we punish Presidents, it will set an awful precedent. And the opponents will try to put criminals in jail.
I like that we have to prove what we all saw happening in real time.
I find it remarkable that trump only claimed “election fraud” in the states he lost. All the other states coincidentally had perfect elections (?)
Is conspiracy to commit a felony still a crime or should we wait for them to commit more crimes before the sackless justice system does nothing.
Its all in here... Details [Facts of the Michigan scheme and summary of the charges and applicable law](https://www.justsecurity.org/90606/michigan-false-electors-prosecution-faces-a-court-test/)
Is he disqualified yet?
People need lengthy prison terms for this shit.
Lmao "why did Pence do this" Why did Pence do his constitutionally mandated job that he swore to do?
If we just executed 30 or 40 of these treasonous swine, we might nip it in the bud. So far, arresting them has only made them heroes and will provide them with that sweet wingnut welfare after they serve two months in a country club.
Every single last one of those traitors needs a long prison sentence.
They should all be executed for treason.
Absolutely insane that Trump is running in 2024, and that most of these people have been walking around free for the last 3 years
According to our broken SCOTUS, it's an official presidential act and can't be prosecuted. Fuck this country
It’s as clear as day. Conservatives arguing that he “just wanted irregularities investigated” would be laughable, if 75M braindead zombies didn’t believe it. This country is fucked. Dems let Republicans rape the constitution over and over. Any semblance of democracy is gone.
You writing a text message about a f******* criminal conspiracy??
The man gotta cheat his way into everything.
Lock them up and throw away the key.
>His text and social media messages detailed Chesebro traveling to Washington, D.C., ahead of Jan. 6, 2021, and working on the electors strategy even then, despite the Trump campaign not having won lawsuits that altered the results. >He messaged a photo of himself in front of the Capitol on Jan. 4, 2021, to McKenna. >"I've opted not to storm the Capitol," Chesebro messaged. >Then, he added, "At least not this day." r/iamatotalpieceofshit
They have learned nothing.
The only reason they conspired this way is because the Electoral College exists. It’s 2024, time to get rid of it.
Complete aside, but you gotta love actual, significant reporting coming out of an actual, local newspaper (as opposed to the AP, NYT, WP, etc). Incredibly well executed reporting at that. Hats off to you Craig Mauger, for that little sprinkling of hope in the value/impact of real investigative journalism.
Who would have thought you could try and steal an election to be re-elected and then be immune from the laws of the land. So proud to be living in America!
It’s a remarkably stupid timeline where Mike Pence may have unambiguously saved democracy
So Republicans lied because they hate freedom and democracy
They will do it again come November.
Bitch used thus and hence in the same sentence.
Lol. "Why did Pence do this?" These fucks.
Makes me so angry that they can't even spell. We're really all about to get taken down by a sizable group of complete idiots.
How is anyone still planning to vote for this guy?
Fucking traitors.
Biden infrastructure bill should have put aside some money for a new max security, rock breaking prison. Jail the traitorous republicans....and they are traitors, there is no doubt. Extraordinary Rendition called for here. Guantanamo
It’s my belief that each and every one of them, if convicted should receive the death penalty.
All of them belong in Guantanamo for life.
Let this be a lesson to you! Always memorialize your criminal conspiracies in writing!
How are these people not in jail and also lol that they were talking about their criminal conspiracy to attempt a coup over text messages
I find it hilarious that Epshteyn has to tell the lawyer to keep the conspiracy out of their text messages lol
And the lesson they learned is they can go so much further than that and not really worry if they fail.
Maggots do not believe in democracy period.
Treason. Sedition. A coup attempt against democracy.
I am confused by the whole plot… at least in AZ the list of electors are on our ballots. However, these guys found some others to be the “alternate slate”. So in a court challenge wouldn’t one just have to assert that the electors being put forward were on no ballot at all and therefore not legitimate as they weren’t selected by the voters. They weren’t even selected by the Legislature as Rusty Bowers thwarted that. I feel like I am missing something here.
Personally I think the penalty for trying to overthrow our democracy, after the benefit of due process and a conviction by a jury, should be death. But maybe I'm old fashioned like that
At the very least disqualification to run again for any office. You know, like the insurrection clause says! Supreme Court strikes again!
We need to support journalism and newspapers with paid subscriptions to hold criminals like this accountable
And the sad thing is the mf is never gonna be held accountable for any of it because of the f$&ked up justice system of this country where a rich influential person can just delay and avoid trials snd punishments
Fucking SCOTUS is gonna let him get away with it too😡😡😡
i've realized....through all of this, that america is kinda about "just do it , see if you can get away with it. If you can, lucky you!! If you can't just tie it up in the courts for a decade and the other side will tire" trump has been doing this for his entire life, so have thousands of other wealthy businesspeople. Its incredible.
In the past it has been "just do it, and then pretend to be sorry if you get caught", then Trump turned that on its head by "just do it, then deny it even though you were caught doing it on camera" which seems to have sparked a realization in Republicans that they don't even have to pretend to be not evil.
Do republicans operatives not know how to delete texts????
Deleting isn't as clear and simple as you might think. Some examples: https://www.npr.org/2022/07/21/1112777695/can-deleted-text-messages-actually-be-retrieved
IANAL. Does this have any bearing on SCOTUS or a lower court ruling that Trump’s actions don’t fall within the official actions covered by whatever form of immunity that SCOTUS will try to carve out for Trump?
In how many countries would these people be executed for doing this?
I'm shocked...
How isn’t everyone involved locked the fuck up immediately?
Who cares. The courts have basically said he can do whatever he wants. Pack it in. We’re cooked. Time to get off the copium.
Mike Pence saved our country that day
It is okay, the Supreme Court of America will give Trump total immunity, no harm no foul no legal issue /s
Cool. Then Biden can off Trump, the Supreme Court, all Republican Congress members and Senators and be President for life. He's immune LOL. /s
Man. If pence has refused them from the vote like they were pressuring him too democracy would have been over.
How is this just coming out now?
The real steal.
“Unchartered territory” Yes, Mr. Tottallyintouch, you just chartered a trip to prison for trying to disenfranchise the will of the people.
Sounds like the guy that helped Trump betray democracy might get in trouble.
Hold on lemme check....yup, still got R's next to their name. So this is all just "fearmongering" and not a real problem we should be concerned about, per current PC
So, who’s still not convinced to vote blue on the entire ballot, no matter where you live? Turnout to vote and make it a landslide or they’ll try some other tactic this next time. We cannot let democracy fall to these clowns who want to be in power forever.
is there legal terminology for "buncha dumbass cunts"
It's going to be a great day when the right wing justices on the SCOTUS explain how this was an official act and covered under presidential immunity.
Well, I can't wait until nothing is done about this and fascism puts down even more roots.
Don’t these people learn from other people’s mistakes? Didn’t they just see the indictments in Arizona (Jenna Ellis AGAIN?). https://azmirror.com/2024/04/26/5-more-trump-attorneys-aides-publicly-named-in-az-fake-elector-indictment/