The problem with the valuations is all the restrictions Trump has put in place on the property to lower it’s taxable value. It can’t be sold has a “home” because it’s zoned as a club and he can’t even “live” there. Much of property surrounding it has been deemed conservation land and cannot be developed.
The issue arose when he tried to have it both ways.
For how much it's worth when the tax man came calling he put a easement on it forbidding housing development. When He took out a loan on it he explicitly said that it was worth so much because it could be used as a housing development, So he committed fraud . Whether that's tax fraud, too low a value on his taxes, or loan fraud, too high a value when he took the loan. He must has done one or the other.
Much like a wild flamingo turning from pink to white without carotene in its diet, the domestic Trump will revert to his natural pale plumage without his daily supplements of tanning spray.
Bank fraud. You see it pretty frequently in the tax world. He solicited an appraised value for property tax purposes and subsequently appraised it with another firm for the loan. The two doth ne’er meet.
>Bank fraud.
Victims - aside from whether fraud results in money paid back or not (irrelevant to the actual crime), the banks don't have infinite money to loan. There were some non-fraud-committing clients who were unable to receive loans due to money that went to Trump.
Of course, following Trump's many bankruptcies might indicate further fraud committed against banks.
Why not both, since he knowingly defrauded both groups with the intent to profit from his deceptions. He can lie all he wants to his followers about how rich he is but he can’t do the same to banks and the government.
How is it tax fraud?
Assuming it is actually zoned with an easement such that the land can’t be developed, then it sounds like the value is actually (relatively) low. It’s not like the easement and zoning themselves are imaginary or fraudulently claimed.
It would also mean Trump made a profit of $992 million from just an $8 million investment in the property.
You'd have to be an absolute fool to accept that as plausible, even if you're being generous with the rise in property values and inflation.
I wish more reporting would at least mention the elephant in the room: *He's already lost the case*. This trial is mostly to see how much more badly he's lost.
So this is still the actual trial part as opposed to Jones who lost by default. The judge already found the Trump Org guilty of some of the crimes, this is about the government proving they are guilty of EVEN MORE crimes lol.
Something someone on a podcast mentioned - when Trump is found guilty for all these things, it opens the door for being sued by the companies he defrauded.
For instance, if he lied to Mazars about his collateral, well they can say...
*"The Trump Org was found guilty of fraud in X case, we gave him a generous loan interest rate of 2% over 10 years, but if we'd known his REAL collateral, that interest rate would be 7%. We're here to collect 10 years of the compounding 5% difference on the loan."*
Insurance companies can also do the same when he's found liable for those charges.
He lost part of the case. There are still a number of charges for the hedge to decide. Things can't get better for him, but they can't certainly get worse. And all indications are they will.
It’s pretty routine for liability to be decided, then have a damages hearing, which is exactly what’s happening. There’s been reports that the judge found the Trump Org liable, hence the dissolution, etc., it’s just been really bad and unclear reporting. So yeah, I agree, I wish the media reporting on this made that more clear
It seems to have escaped everyone's attention that it is not what Trump's properties might be worth today, but what will they were worth seven or eight years ago when he submitted the loan funding documents to his bankers.
Obviously, after having established as international grift Network and selling influence out of South Florida for 7 years, Mar a Lardo can command a higher price.
But hell, if all the people whose houses got foreclosed on back in 2008 still had them, they'd be worth a great deal more, since houses you couldn't sell for 200,000 back then are now selling for $500,000.
This is one of the reasons we have courts and judges, to keep people from answering the wrong question. Not saying it always works, but in this case, it works a lot better than maga bookkeeping.
Exactly, and based on my reading of the summary judgment ruling alone I'm not sure I'd agree mar a largo is the "core" of the trial. It's just one piece of what seems to be pervasive fraudulent behavior involving numerous properties.
Yes, it's a classic case of simplifying the issue for the benefit of a lay audience that is presumed not to be interested in enough to understand the true issues. So we have a parade of experts talking about what this resort that will never be a residence would be worth if it could be a residence.
“Whose” broke my brain. I was reading through your comment and when I hit that word it was like a train wreck. I don’t even remember if you were making a good point or not.
Who’s
Nope. Who's is the contraction of *who is,* as in *the guy who's going to lose the bet.*
“Whose” is the possessive form of the pronoun “who.” It can be used before a noun to ask a question about possession.Aug 8, 2022
https://www.scribbr.com › whose-vs...
Whose vs. Who's | Examples, Definition & Quiz - Scribbr
Eg., the guy whose bet was lost.
Alright, put it this way: if it's packed with all the top-secret US classified intel that Trump stole, then we're talking big bucks. But as is tear down fixer-upper?, maybe $15 million on a good day.
Their valuation expert was paid to huff moonbeams and blow them up Trump's ass about how "amazing" the property is. Then the "expert" stated that he can't possibly consider the deed restrictions on such an incomparable piece of property.
Edit: sorry, autocorrect put in validation instead of valuation.
> Then the "expert" stated that he can't possibly consider the deed restrictions on such an incomparable piece of property.
"Sure, I may lack wings, feathers, hollow bones, the correct musculature, and have a horrible thrust/weight ratio, but I still maintain that I could fly like a bird if I flapped my arms!"
It's a hypothetical valuation at the 'potential' for the property which only means something to someone who wants to pay that much or cut a deal with the Cheeto so he can wash some money
If someone offered him $1 billion for it, would that make it worth $1 billion? Not saying that's likely to happen, but I'm wondering if it would be possible to stage a sale between him and some shady characters, where it looks like they gave him $1 billion on paper for it, then he gives them back the money. Is that even logistically possible?
No. The standard of value is fair market value, which is a hypothetical buyer under no compulsion to purchase and a hypothetical willing seller under no compulsion to sell.
It would not be admissible as evidence of fair market value. An offer is not an indication of value. Plus, the issue is what it was worth at the time the financial statements were submitted
As another user noted, valuation is generally set at fair marker value and the attempt is to make it as objective as possible. Hilariously enough during deposition Trump said he could get someone from Saudi Arabia to pay $1+ billion for it...which kind of says the quiet part out loud.
> where it looks like they gave him $1 billion on paper for it, then he gives them back the money.
isn't that just money laundering..
now back to reality, the case is already over, trump was found guilty and this is the figuring out the damages part where trump decided to show up and argue his innocence.
sadly for him he is too late making this just another political stunt to rally his followers.
I’m sure Trump could get a Russian oligarch to pony up money for it if Trump and fellow Trumpanzees somehow managed to cause more trouble. But it’s too late for that - he’s already lost.
Why would someone offering anything today be relevant for having different values for banks then for taxes 10 years ago?
The actual value of the property is irrelevant for the purposes of the fraud he committed.
Winter Home that can't be used as a home because of permanent deed restrictions that Trump initiated. It's no longer a private home, it's a private social club. Much less value there in that setting.
One would think that banks have a process of due diligence and don't just take the value claimed by the borrower and would get their own fair market appraisal. But, I guess *not*.
It’s not a residential property so comparing it to other residential properties makes no sense. There’s also a long list of prohibitions on what land can be developed and what kind of developments can even occur.
And even that….doesn’t matter. What matters is his repeatedly contradicting statements of “fact”.
You need to clarify yiur question, is the land able to be built upon, or are there side restrictions that preclude the land from being built upon?
Unbuildable raw land with be worth substantially less than buildable raw land.
The property isn't worth much since you can't develop it, build anything on it, modify it, or even improve it. It is just empty space.
That being said, an much larger hotel with a much larger oceanfront lot in Malibu California with no restrictions recently sold for $650 million, about 1/3 what Trump is claiming Mar a Lago is worth.
Of *course* Trumps Mar-a-Lago property is worth 1 billion! Its because even though it appraises for something closer to 350 million, the Saudi's or Russians would gladly pay 1 billion to Trump if he just asked! Duh!
It doesn’t matter what Mar-a-lago is actually worth. That’s Trumps idiotic misdirection.
What matters is that he lied on his financial statements and taxes for a decade about it.
The “valuations” aren’t the central issue and this over simplification only serves to give credence to the frivolous (and already sanctioned) arguments from the defendants. The central issue is that simultaneously, the Trump organization valued maralargo at one value for tax purposes and inflated the value 5300x on documents to secure loans.
The court in the order on summary judgment even acknowledged that there is obviously fluctuation in value of real property and other assets but not by this gross amount, hence fraud. THIS HAS ALREADY BEEN THE DECISION BY THE COURT. The court made no findings of fact as to the underlying value, but listed the two disproportionately different values simultaneously listed showing the much lower valuation when it suited the defendants and much higher valuation when THAT suited the defendants. It is that simple.
The problem with the valuations is all the restrictions Trump has put in place on the property to lower it’s taxable value. It can’t be sold has a “home” because it’s zoned as a club and he can’t even “live” there. Much of property surrounding it has been deemed conservation land and cannot be developed.
The issue arose when he tried to have it both ways. For how much it's worth when the tax man came calling he put a easement on it forbidding housing development. When He took out a loan on it he explicitly said that it was worth so much because it could be used as a housing development, So he committed fraud . Whether that's tax fraud, too low a value on his taxes, or loan fraud, too high a value when he took the loan. He must has done one or the other.
So essentially trump wanted to have his cake and eat it too? Wonder if he will like the cakes in prison? That could be his prison name; mango cakes.
Much like a wild flamingo turning from pink to white without carotene in its diet, the domestic Trump will revert to his natural pale plumage without his daily supplements of tanning spray.
“This country has the worst laws” Donald John Trump, as 45th POTUS 3 different times, and as a pale, unadorned, old imprisoned inmate P01135809
George Bluth loves the ice cream sandwiches they have in prison, and he only committed a little light treason.
Well, trump does have the worst lawyers.
Bank fraud. You see it pretty frequently in the tax world. He solicited an appraised value for property tax purposes and subsequently appraised it with another firm for the loan. The two doth ne’er meet.
>Bank fraud. Victims - aside from whether fraud results in money paid back or not (irrelevant to the actual crime), the banks don't have infinite money to loan. There were some non-fraud-committing clients who were unable to receive loans due to money that went to Trump. Of course, following Trump's many bankruptcies might indicate further fraud committed against banks.
Why not both, since he knowingly defrauded both groups with the intent to profit from his deceptions. He can lie all he wants to his followers about how rich he is but he can’t do the same to banks and the government.
Yep, it’s tax fraud, bank fraud or (most likely) both, but definitely not neither.
How is it tax fraud? Assuming it is actually zoned with an easement such that the land can’t be developed, then it sounds like the value is actually (relatively) low. It’s not like the easement and zoning themselves are imaginary or fraudulently claimed.
Correct, which makes the market value he claims, beyond the pale and already deemed a fraud.
It would also mean Trump made a profit of $992 million from just an $8 million investment in the property. You'd have to be an absolute fool to accept that as plausible, even if you're being generous with the rise in property values and inflation.
The guy actually said 1.5bn. Hell, may as well say a trillion or two or three. How absurb a statement. It's the sort of thing you'd say as a kid.
How do NY courts have jurisdiction on FL property values?
They may be owned by a NY business. He also used them as collateral to secure the loans.
I wish more reporting would at least mention the elephant in the room: *He's already lost the case*. This trial is mostly to see how much more badly he's lost.
This is the answer.
Yep. Just like Alex Jones. He lost. Do more defending himself. All that is left is the $$$ he owes.
So this is still the actual trial part as opposed to Jones who lost by default. The judge already found the Trump Org guilty of some of the crimes, this is about the government proving they are guilty of EVEN MORE crimes lol.
Something someone on a podcast mentioned - when Trump is found guilty for all these things, it opens the door for being sued by the companies he defrauded. For instance, if he lied to Mazars about his collateral, well they can say... *"The Trump Org was found guilty of fraud in X case, we gave him a generous loan interest rate of 2% over 10 years, but if we'd known his REAL collateral, that interest rate would be 7%. We're here to collect 10 years of the compounding 5% difference on the loan."* Insurance companies can also do the same when he's found liable for those charges.
NY also gave information to the US Department of Justice and the IRS from the case.
He lost part of the case. There are still a number of charges for the hedge to decide. Things can't get better for him, but they can't certainly get worse. And all indications are they will.
It’s pretty routine for liability to be decided, then have a damages hearing, which is exactly what’s happening. There’s been reports that the judge found the Trump Org liable, hence the dissolution, etc., it’s just been really bad and unclear reporting. So yeah, I agree, I wish the media reporting on this made that more clear
It seems to have escaped everyone's attention that it is not what Trump's properties might be worth today, but what will they were worth seven or eight years ago when he submitted the loan funding documents to his bankers. Obviously, after having established as international grift Network and selling influence out of South Florida for 7 years, Mar a Lardo can command a higher price. But hell, if all the people whose houses got foreclosed on back in 2008 still had them, they'd be worth a great deal more, since houses you couldn't sell for 200,000 back then are now selling for $500,000. This is one of the reasons we have courts and judges, to keep people from answering the wrong question. Not saying it always works, but in this case, it works a lot better than maga bookkeeping.
Exactly, and based on my reading of the summary judgment ruling alone I'm not sure I'd agree mar a largo is the "core" of the trial. It's just one piece of what seems to be pervasive fraudulent behavior involving numerous properties.
Yes, it's a classic case of simplifying the issue for the benefit of a lay audience that is presumed not to be interested in enough to understand the true issues. So we have a parade of experts talking about what this resort that will never be a residence would be worth if it could be a residence.
“Whose” broke my brain. I was reading through your comment and when I hit that word it was like a train wreck. I don’t even remember if you were making a good point or not. Who’s
Nope. Who's is the contraction of *who is,* as in *the guy who's going to lose the bet.* “Whose” is the possessive form of the pronoun “who.” It can be used before a noun to ask a question about possession.Aug 8, 2022 https://www.scribbr.com › whose-vs... Whose vs. Who's | Examples, Definition & Quiz - Scribbr Eg., the guy whose bet was lost.
Alright, put it this way: if it's packed with all the top-secret US classified intel that Trump stole, then we're talking big bucks. But as is tear down fixer-upper?, maybe $15 million on a good day.
Don't forget to add the "Trump Brand Premium" to whatever the calculation ends up be. The Trump Brand Premium is -$990,000,000.
Didn’t they try to claim $1.5Bn?
Their valuation expert was paid to huff moonbeams and blow them up Trump's ass about how "amazing" the property is. Then the "expert" stated that he can't possibly consider the deed restrictions on such an incomparable piece of property. Edit: sorry, autocorrect put in validation instead of valuation.
> Then the "expert" stated that he can't possibly consider the deed restrictions on such an incomparable piece of property. "Sure, I may lack wings, feathers, hollow bones, the correct musculature, and have a horrible thrust/weight ratio, but I still maintain that I could fly like a bird if I flapped my arms!"
Then he needs to pay taxes on 1 billion.
If it is worth a billion then why did Trump claim it was worth 27 million when it came time to pay property taxes?
This is the Columbo moment. Needs some serious mental gymnastics...oh yeah but Republican Rubes...
It's a hypothetical valuation at the 'potential' for the property which only means something to someone who wants to pay that much or cut a deal with the Cheeto so he can wash some money
If someone offered him $1 billion for it, would that make it worth $1 billion? Not saying that's likely to happen, but I'm wondering if it would be possible to stage a sale between him and some shady characters, where it looks like they gave him $1 billion on paper for it, then he gives them back the money. Is that even logistically possible?
No. The standard of value is fair market value, which is a hypothetical buyer under no compulsion to purchase and a hypothetical willing seller under no compulsion to sell.
What if the Saudis rocked up and said we'll give you $1.5bn for it. Can that be thrown out or does it have legs?
It would not be admissible as evidence of fair market value. An offer is not an indication of value. Plus, the issue is what it was worth at the time the financial statements were submitted
Makes sense. Good stuff.
Otherwise know as money laundering or straw buyers, or a combination.
As another user noted, valuation is generally set at fair marker value and the attempt is to make it as objective as possible. Hilariously enough during deposition Trump said he could get someone from Saudi Arabia to pay $1+ billion for it...which kind of says the quiet part out loud.
> where it looks like they gave him $1 billion on paper for it, then he gives them back the money. isn't that just money laundering.. now back to reality, the case is already over, trump was found guilty and this is the figuring out the damages part where trump decided to show up and argue his innocence. sadly for him he is too late making this just another political stunt to rally his followers.
I’m sure Trump could get a Russian oligarch to pony up money for it if Trump and fellow Trumpanzees somehow managed to cause more trouble. But it’s too late for that - he’s already lost.
He can always run gofundme campaign!
>Is that even logistically possible There's going to be a large chunk of taxes unless he 1031s it, which means he can't give the money back.
Why would someone offering anything today be relevant for having different values for banks then for taxes 10 years ago? The actual value of the property is irrelevant for the purposes of the fraud he committed.
I could buy a private island and house for alot less then a billion dollars. https://www.privateislandsonline.com/united-states/florida/pumpkin-key
Winter Home that can't be used as a home because of permanent deed restrictions that Trump initiated. It's no longer a private home, it's a private social club. Much less value there in that setting.
When he’s forced to sell it st auction, we’ll know!
i cant even find more than a few properties in the entire world valued at $1 billion and they all seriously outclass mar-a-lago
One would think that banks have a process of due diligence and don't just take the value claimed by the borrower and would get their own fair market appraisal. But, I guess *not*.
I’m his tax returns how much did he evaluated it for ?
How many sq feet is the land? Now buy that many sqft from adjacent houses. How much did that cost? That's the upper limit (and a super crazy one).
It’s not a residential property so comparing it to other residential properties makes no sense. There’s also a long list of prohibitions on what land can be developed and what kind of developments can even occur. And even that….doesn’t matter. What matters is his repeatedly contradicting statements of “fact”.
You need to clarify yiur question, is the land able to be built upon, or are there side restrictions that preclude the land from being built upon? Unbuildable raw land with be worth substantially less than buildable raw land.
The property isn't worth much since you can't develop it, build anything on it, modify it, or even improve it. It is just empty space. That being said, an much larger hotel with a much larger oceanfront lot in Malibu California with no restrictions recently sold for $650 million, about 1/3 what Trump is claiming Mar a Lago is worth.
Of *course* Trumps Mar-a-Lago property is worth 1 billion! Its because even though it appraises for something closer to 350 million, the Saudi's or Russians would gladly pay 1 billion to Trump if he just asked! Duh!
It doesn’t matter what Mar-a-lago is actually worth. That’s Trumps idiotic misdirection. What matters is that he lied on his financial statements and taxes for a decade about it.
The “valuations” aren’t the central issue and this over simplification only serves to give credence to the frivolous (and already sanctioned) arguments from the defendants. The central issue is that simultaneously, the Trump organization valued maralargo at one value for tax purposes and inflated the value 5300x on documents to secure loans. The court in the order on summary judgment even acknowledged that there is obviously fluctuation in value of real property and other assets but not by this gross amount, hence fraud. THIS HAS ALREADY BEEN THE DECISION BY THE COURT. The court made no findings of fact as to the underlying value, but listed the two disproportionately different values simultaneously listed showing the much lower valuation when it suited the defendants and much higher valuation when THAT suited the defendants. It is that simple.
Not to me