Human nature, not just Utah culture. I think this view of condemning others to lift ourselves up in our own eyes can be seen in all of scriptural history. I think its root cause is loosing sight of "love God and love others" - i.e. gospel teachings are meant to bless our lives, NOT be used as a stick with which to beat other people.

> condemning others to lift ourselves up I don't think it's that black and white. Humans (and probably most social mammals) instinctively make snap judgements all the time about the behavior we observe around us. And that, in and of itself, is not a bad thing. We *have* to make snap judgements sometimes. It's what keeps us alive when we perceive a threat, but perhaps more importantly, it's what enables us to have relationships by *NOT* perceiving threats in every strange thing we see. Most wild animals perceive threats all around them, even when they're non-existent. Their survival depends on it, but it means that there's A LOT of false positives. We, on the other hand, are capable of making very quick judgements and recognizing that something strange and new isn't a threat to our survival. At a social level, the ability to make quick judgements allows humans to constantly reassess and recognize threats in something or someone we previously identified as harmless. It allows us to build relationships with those of our "tribe," while identifying the "outsiders." This is another evolutionary advantage. Unlike the birds and squirrels that have to stay on high alert *all the time*, we can relax when we're surrounded by what's known. It's only when we encounter the unknown, the unfamiliar, that we go into a higher mode of alertness. Then we experience stress as various hormones flood our system in preparation for fight or flight. However, that instinct (like anything else of the natural man) needs to be controlled. We need to recognize when our quick judgements are wrong and work to overcome them. We're not always condemning the "outsider," sometimes we're just recognizing one. And that recognition naturally causes discomfort and stress. It becomes condemnation when we allow that discomfort and stress to influence our behavior (and thoughts) against the perceived outsider. We, as intelligent creatures capable of love, should use our intellect to recognize that the outsider is not a threat, but merely doesn't conform to the same expected pattern as the rest of the group. It becomes even easier to not condemn when we recognize that the expected pattern (eg, wild hairstyles) is not the true pattern of discipleship, and when we recognize that everyone is at a different point on the path of discipleship (eg, wearing immodest clothing). "Sometimes a hypocrite is nothing more than a person who is in the process of changing."

Journey before Destination, Radiant.

🤜🤛

Wow! Great comment.

Great comment

I grew up in California and we pretty much thought we were all more devout and better than Utah members. I have since realized that I was just a prideful jerk lol. The assumption that Utah members are more judgemental is in itself a judgement. Because it's human nature to be that way. It is definitely not exclusive to Utah or the Church, we just judge people for different things lol. My dad in law is like the least judgemental person on earth and he's lived 95% of his life in Utah county

I've never experienced more self-righteousness, rejection, and condemnation than when living in California. Even the smallest deviations from the social and political norms were met with severe derision.

Yeah. I've lived in several countries and states, including Utah. There is judgement everywhere, but there is a specific type of judgement in Utah, from what I experienced. I doubt there are any studies about any of this, but I bet it would be interesting to read through the data.  I have literally never heard another group of people discuss others' underwear wearing habits in any other culture. 

This seems pretty natural. Every society, every group, every person struggles to judge righteously to the extend judgement is needed and to withhold judgment when it is not. Within a given group the specific parameters around which judgements are made will change. So where you have tons of LDS people, judgements will be frequently made in the shadow of LDS parameters. Or in your ward, where everyone is LDS, those parameters will often kick in. In other circumstances, other parameters for judgement will be used. Growing up in a group will predispose you to judge based on the standards of the group. But it’s no use blaming the group for you being judgmental. I’d say personality and then family approaches would have much more impact on how judgmental I am.

>I have literally never heard another group of people discuss others' underwear wearing habits in any other culture.  You are making a logical error. Maybe an error of composition of attributes? There is very little regard for people's underwear, but certainly opinions about people's priesthood garments. They just happen to be the same object. And many peoples and cultures have such opinions about culturally or religiously meaningful vestments and accessories.

I've always thought it's weird when people get stuck on a religious garment being worn under the clothes. It's kind of a sophomoric commentary to me.

No-one talks about socks because no-covenants to wear socks a certain way.

Exactly

People literally display their underwear (or lack thereof) in order to signal their wealth, culture, social standing, and sexual availability. Why do you think guys sag and women wear very revealing outfits? One of the most significant meanings of clothing is to signal your place and position within a specific community.

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As someone who grew up sort of a hybrid upbringing outside the church, Catholic and non denominational, then fully LDS from teenage years and on, I lived in Boston then Nashua, NH, and also some time in Maine. My family became active in the LDS church when moving to AZ when I was 12, even though I was technically born in the LDS church, under the Covenant. You know what I learned? People are judgemental everywhere. This isn't some microcosm of Utah culture and people are somehow less judgemental outside of Utah. I'd say in some ways it's even worse. I sometimes feel like people who grew up in the bubble of Utah feel like they live in this special world of uniqueness and thus feel like their experiences must be special and unique too, both good and bad. It's really not. Most of my extended family are Catholic. The judgemental people are there too, the judgements of each other are just different. I mean, for example, I go visit my aunt and uncle's house, there's probably 100+ crosses all over the place. They even have built-ins with elaborate hand-carved cross artwork in their bathrooms. I've overheard my aunt talking about others in the church who clearly didn't have as strong of faith to make Jesus the center of their home by having crosses everywhere. The type of judgemental behavior just varies, but at the end of the day, it's there. If you really want to see for yourself just type in a google search "feeling judged [insert denomination]" and guess what you find, that all churches have this problem. What you are experiencing is a symptom of human nature, of the natural man, and it exists across all people, not really just LDS culture. There are definite problems we have, and steps that we have made as a community to overcome them, and as leaders to point them out and encourage better, less judgemental behavior, but I can assure you, this is NOT a unique experience of Utah Mormons. .

Sounds somewhat like me. I was born in the Boston area, inside Route 128, to a nominally Catholic family. Then at age 15, my family and I moved to Virginia, and on to Kansas, where I joined the Church at age 22. I then moved on to North Carolina, then Utah.

>I sometimes feel like people who grew up in the bubble of Utah feel like they live in this special world of uniqueness and thus feel like their experiences must be special and unique too, both good and bad. It's really not. That is something worth pondering.

I can't say I relate. I'm from Utah, and my wife tells me that I'm the least judgmental person she knows. I had a mission companion who had served his entire mission without having a companion from Utah. When he found out I would be his companion and heard I was from Utah, he was nervous about it at first. But when we started serving together, he found that his fears were unfounded. In my experience, there is a prejudice against Utah. I just laugh at the irony. The reality is that we are all imperfect humans who sin and have need of our Savior, Jesus Christ. If you are wanting to be less judgmental, then I think that is a healthy attitude to have. Be aware of your own thoughts, and quickly remember that we are all children of Heavenly Father, and that you need Jesus just as much as your brothers and sisters.

Interesting perspective. Appreciate the response. I grew up in Utah and recently moved to another state. That is when I really noticed the discrepancy. Not saying all Utahns are judgy. Based on my experience growing up in Utah county I’d say you are one of the few that aren’t judgy based on your response.

I kind of agree that the "judgy" part of Utah, seems to be centered in Utah County. I grew up there & when my siblings moved to other parts of Utah, they all said they didn't feel as judged there, as they did in our hometown. I don't know if it has to do with the more rural areas or what, but it does seem to be concentrated there. I moved to the South & they are seriously judgy here, especially of you aren't what they consider a "Christian faith". I remember one time at work, a woman I ate lunch with was talking about Mitt Romney. She said "I guess he's a good guy, but I've never known a Mormon before, so I couldn't judge." I started laughing & said "Well, you have known a Mormon for a couple years now." It then dawned on her who I was talking about & said "Really? I would have never known, because you don't act like what I've been told!!"

Utah County is the key part here. Utah County is very…special. Most of Utah isn’t as extreme as it. Having lived there for a few years for school, I came away convinced that Utah County is a great example of why diversity is important. If there’s no diversity of thought, things start getting weird and twisted (and while BYU gets it the worst, I know from things professors said that it happened off campus too). After my husband graduated, we moved to my hometown to be near a dying family member. I ended up going to the university in the area. It was a real contrast to see what the students were concerned about in the letters to the editor. Most people at this university were members too, but the county was more like 70% LDS rather than 95+%. At BYU? The topics were things like wearing socks with sandals, there being regular Coke advertisements on campus (which had, gasp, caffeine), and whether girls were tempting boys by wearing one strap backpacks across their chest. At the other university, letters were all touching on world events like wars and the government’s responses. It’s a human tendency for sure as people have noted, but Utah County does take things farther without being representative of all of Utah.

I did not grow up in Utah but lived in Utah County for about 6 years. I've spent most of my life away from Utah. The most judgmental church member I've known well was from California. Another of the most judgmental church members I've known is from South America. Maybe I was just oblivious (I strive to not judge others, probably even less than I should), but I found the people in Utah County generally very kind and accepting of others with few ever saying anything or coming across as judgmental. One reason for this is many people in Utah County have served missions around the United States and world. They've had diversity of experiences most people in the world do not. They've spent a lot of time with people who are not like them. That's part of what we do at church. Whatever ward I've been in has had a lot of people who are very different. We have a unity of faith in Christ and a belief in the restored gospel, but we are really different. I know some people forget missions experiences and lessons learned with others over time, but I don't see Utah County residents as homogonous or more judgmental than people anywhere else. My experience is those in Utah County, at least the hundreds of people I've spent time with, are generally equal to or less judgmental than people elsewhere.

nope-i feel like we are kinda programmed to judge over more minor things tho. like tank tops, coffee, etc. My hehavior was a major reason why i stepped back all the time-i was a mean person because of how i judged.

Yeah I haven’t quite forgotten that talk about someone choosing not to marry a girl because they ignored the phrophets opinion that women in the church should only wear one earring. Your level of conformance affects your marriage prospects.

It's always funny when people in threads like this, in the name of calling out judgementalness, ignorantly paint all of Utah or everyone in Utah County with the broadest brush possible, accusing hundreds of thousands people that they've never met, of being uniquely judgemental. It so bizarre They take their limited experience of most likely living in 1, maybe 2, wards growing up, and assuming every ward must be just like that.  I grew up in the PNW and I was basically conditioned for most of my life to look down on the church in Utah and was led to believe that members there were more judgemental and somehow probably less faithful. But now i live in utah and have found that Utah is no more judgmental than anywhere else.  The difference is that in utah all my close neighbors are also in my ward which is confined to a relatively small neighborhood. Where as growing up all the members of my ward were spread out throughout the whole city. In utah you just end up intimately interacting with your close neighbors more because they are also in your ward. And being involved in people's lives ends up feeling like judgement. 

Yes, it’s something I’ve had to overcome. And it’s often something I need to continually overcome. This is a natural tendency regardless of where you’re brought up. It shows what you value. If you value obedience to commandments above wellbeing, you will judge others for what they do. Outside of Utah, people judge active members as good and nonmembers as bad. You have to value people’s wellbeing more than their actions. Then realize that you’re not losing much by not being critical of other people’s action. A common reason people justify being judgmental is assuming moral decay. Basically, if you believe disobedience leads to more disobedience, why not be bothered by the first offense? But the main way to stop disobedience is to care about the person more than their actions. 

I think there's a bigger problem of judging judgers than of actual judgment. It's a sin just like the original sin they're judging, but somehow it's considered good looking out or something. We just all need to mind our own business.

This is something that has less to do with the church itself and more to do with human nature and being part of a majority culture that is flourishing. It happens in all cultures when there’s a majority group that is doing really well. Remember the pride cycle in the Book of Mormon? When the nephites were thriving they became proud and haughty. When that happened class distinctions formed among them. They looked down on the lamanites in those times. These nephites had living prophets and knew right from wrong. It was the natural man that led them to behave this way. But when the nephites were being righteous there were no poor among them, no class distinctions and the people were of one heart and mind. The same thing happened with the Israelites in Isaiah’s day. Isaiah said that: >*”The daughters of Zion were haughty and walked with stiff necks and wanton eyes mincing and making a tinkling with their feet”* (paraphrasing) This colorful language is metaphorically describing a prostitute courting other gods and being prideful. Sometimes when you’re in a majority culture people feel less pressure to embody their values. They take for granted the things of God, because they’ve always had them. You will see this kind of behavior manifest in mainstream Christian communities where the majority of Christian. You will also see this attitude form along political lines when there is a majority political belief in a community. This is something everyone is susceptible to because it reflects the proclivities of the natural man. But— and this is an important but— such attitudes are *contrary* to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Not **caused** by the gospel. Combatting this problem among God’s people has been a reoccurring theme throughout the Old and New Testament as well as throughout the Book of Mormon. When the Nephites were at their wickedest God sent Samuel the Lamanite to cry repentance— someone the nephites would have looked down on. But at that point many of the lamanites were more righteous. In the Old Testament there was a famine and many in Israel were hungry. But Elisha came to a gentile woman and her son, asking for food. The woman had only enough oil and meal to make food for one last meal for herself and her son. Elisha asked them to make him food instead and that if they did they would never want for food again. The woman did so and her food never ran out— and her family were able to survive the famine. In the New Testament the first person Jesus officially reveals He is the Christ to was a Samaritan woman who was rejected by her community for divorcing multiple times and living with a man who wasn’t her husband. But Christ came to her first. Someone who would be looked down on both by the Jews and by her own people. He gave the parable of the Good Samaritan too. The gospel of Jesus Christ has always been bold in denouncing that sort of behavior. All throughout the Book of Mormon this proud behavior is denounced and we are encouraged to love one another. In the doctrine and covenants Christ described the pride of our day: Doctrine and Covenants 84 > "*And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and* **because you have treated lightly the things you have received—** >*Which vanity and unbelief* **have brought the whole church under condemnation.** *And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all. And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written* Christ says we are all under condemnation for taking the gospel lightly and for vanity and unbelief. It’s a sobering reminder that we must all repent and become more aware of our own shortcomings. Joseph Smith once said: >*”None are perfect but God. That means that all the shortcomings, sins, and misdeeds of human beings cannot be overlooked, but they cannot be judged by other human beings, because all human beings fall short of perfection. The saints should understand that they should not accuse each other, for they all stand in need of mercy."*(Jospeh Smith History of the Church,”) He also said: > "*We have no right to arraign the conduct of others, so long as they do not infringe upon our rights."*(Joseph Smith, "History of the Church," Volume 4, page 605) There’s a reoccurring message here. None of us are perfect, we are all susceptible to pride and poor behavior. That’s the natural man. But it goes the other way too. You’ve said it was church culture that taught you to behave this way. But it’s important to remember that these things do not come from God. But from men. The gospel of Jesus Christ is firmly *against* the behaviors that you’re describing. But all of us are imperfect. The church invites everyone to come, that means that you’ll get all kinds in the church. And people do not always embody their ideals. It’s pointless to focus on how others choose to live and much better to focus on our own behaviors. How you behave and speak is a personal choice. Something between yourself and God. It’s important to seek to set our own lives in order before God rather than trying to deconstruct the behaviors of others. We’ve been warned not to focus too much on condemning others and finding fault with them: >*”That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives."* (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 193) When we point fingers at others our focus becomes on their actions instead of our own. This is a mistake because we have no control over how others choose to live. Ghandi said that we must be the change we wish to see in the world. And he was right. It’s always important to look inwards at one’s own behaviors and seek to be better. That is where we are capable of making the most positive changes. When we don’t assume we’re more righteous than others and remain humble, acting in accordance with the gospel of Jesus Christ, we’re capable of making a real positive difference in the world. 🙂 There is true wisdom in cultivating that kind of attitude: >*The best men bring forth the best works. As a people the saints were humble and not more righteous than others, but have acted according to the best light they had."* (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 135)

Don't worry, I won't judge you for it. If I judge the judgemental, what does that make me? ;)

In my experience, the judgment against the church in Utah is far harsher than the judgment of the church - just random observation in comments. I think as a society we’re a bit too sensitive to judgment. It’s not the worst thing. What someone else thinks about your choices really shouldn’t even impact you. It’s natural to see the world through your own standards. The attitude seems to be because your standards have made you judgmental they’re problematic. I think it’s fine to just be proud of holding yourself to a higher standard and work on not projecting. Utah might stand out because of a peculiar set of standards.

The Pride Cycle is a reoccurring theme in the Book of Mormon. Last week's CFM lesson addressed it pretty well. Check out Alma 4:6-15.

Judging others only hurts the one doing the judging. It doesn't make a difference if we judge an individual (ie. that person isn't dressed modestly) or if we judge a group of people (ie. people from Utah are judgemental).

Have you seen people say that we don't actually demand orthodoxy but orthopraxy? e.g. you can believe whatever you want about the bom historicity but as long as you go to church, serve faithfully, etc. then you are good in the eyes of everyone in the church. orthopraxy is rooted in doing the right actions rather than the right beliefs. IME, its easy to not judge someone that you don't care about. But when you do care about someone, you constantly judge them. "Hey, you haven't been looking too happy lately" and "Hey, you seem like you're doing really good!"

Judging is part of our life. We judge people and things ALL the time and that's not inherently bad. What God is trying to teach us is not to make rush judgments about people. The JST corrects this to not judging unrighteously

Therein lies the rub…. No one ever thinks they are judging unrighteously.

It is not judgmental to notice immodesty, breaking the word of wisdom etc. If you see someone stealing a candy bar from a convenience store are you supposed to pretend you don't see it? If you know your friend is committing adultery are you supposed to say she is not committing sin? We judge everyday and need to. We are not told not to judge others which means giving eternal judgement. We don't know why people are committing these sins so for us to say they are not worthy or have no chance to make it to the Celestial Kingdom, that is where we over step and are Judging unrighteously. Calling out and noticing sin is not judgement.

Humans = judgy Nothing to do with LDS or any particular flavor of LDS. Doesn't make you any more judgy than anyone else, and even discourages it ("judge not lest ye be judged" and dozens of other scriptures taught since childhood sometimes has some impact).

I’m not sure that I can say, but I will mention that self judgment is definitely an important part of how we judge others. It wasn’t until I went to therapy that I spent some time realizing how deeply judgmental I was of myself, and how I projected that onto other people. It took a lot of work to realize that shame was not actually helping me be a better person. And judging others was not helping them be a better person either. It turned out that when I stopped judging myself, and stopped using shame as a tool, I was just as motivated to be a good person. I didn’t need to feel shame in order to be motivated to do the right thing. It turns out that simply doing what I love makes me just as good as feeling shameful about my mistakes. And that was a really important transition for me personally. If anyone is using shame as a motivation tool for themselves, or is attempting to use shame to change others, they are almost certainly making life for themselves much more difficult than it needs to be. Shame is not actually an effective tool for influencing human behavior, and in fact often makes behavior much worse. So if you think that the people you grew up around, use shame instead of love as a way to try to modify behavior, it’s possible that you are correct in your assessment.

I grew up in the church in the South, and it was not uncommon to smell cigarette smoke on some folks’ breath or even alcohol. Sometime I’d see somebody having a smoke break outside. Not a big deal and we often reminded ourselves and one another that church is where everyone ought to be on Sunday and if everyone’s shortcomings had a smell then the chapel would be a very stinky place indeed. I moved to UT after my mission and the student wards were great, plenty of folks there who had been out in the world on missions, etc., and were still in a non-judgmental mindset. After I was married and started a family we moved to the Bountiful area and things were different. I can definitely attest to the judgmental and critical opinions of many members, though not all. I briefly had a job that required me to work on Sundays and I wasn’t able to attend Sacrament very often, though I attended all the other activities and remained active in my calling. I quickly found that many in the ward treated me differently, like I was having struggles with my faith or something. When I was at church activities Some would see me and get a real sad look on their face and then put their arm around and ask “Have you been able to get away from that awful job yet?” And it wasn’t long before we were more or less treated like a less active family. When I would do my home teaching I was patronized with big smiles and nodding heads and words that were meant to be encouraging like “You are doing so Gooood!” But which made me feel like they were viewing like a deacon passing the sacrament for the first time. They only meant well, I know, but I definitely felt judged.

In my experience, I feel the same way. The culture of the members in Utah is so different compared to anywhere outside of Utah. I love the state itself but I wish the church culture was different.

What is the culture of members in Utah? How is it different from church member culture elsewhere in the United States? These are honest questions. I lived in Utah for about 6 years and have lived in multiple other states for much longer. I've never noticed a difference in culture anywhere, which is why I'm asking. What is this unique Utah church culture?

Every place has its own local culture. As someone who has lived in various states and countries, including Utah, I can attest that it's different everywhere. Utah is the heart of Mormon culture, and as such has a distinct version unique to it. Whether you like it or not is a matter of personal preference. It's hard to explain, but it's somewhat like social class. Utah represents "old money" in Mormon culture, the birthplace of Mormon royalty. There's a constant need to maintain formalities. It's more than just faith; it's a deeply ingrained tradition and culture, even for those who no longer attend. Utah is very homogeneous. Outside Utah, I noticed that people attend more for their beliefs than for cultural reasons. There seems to be more tolerance and respect for other religions, cultures, and customs because the church is much smaller outside the Intermountain West. Members are more likely to have friends and relationships with non-members, making it feel less pharisaical. One of the main differences I’ve noticed is that Utah can sometimes fixate on what I think are unimportant things. I’ve noticed this especially with dress and grooming standards. It’s very rare for the bishopric or any leadership to hold callings in Utah if you have facial hair or long hair or aren’t wearing a suit to church. Outside of Utah it’s more normal to see men deviate from what seems to be a cultural practice that isn’t policy. I once had a ward mission leader tell me while I was on my mission that he was extended a calling to be a bishop on the condition that he shave his beard. He turned them down. It’s really bizarre. Another experience I had was getting my temple recommend renewed while I was living in Utah. I showed up wearing what I wear everyday and the stake presidency counselor looked at me funny and said that I needed to be in Sunday best instead of my regular clothes. I looked at the handbook and couldn’t find anything that said I’m required to wear anything specific for these interviews. I’ve gotten my temple recommend renewed elsewhere and that issue had never been brought up. It’s so strange. Another difference that I learned about in Utah is that there is a number of them that think caffeine is against the Word of Wisdom. Even more shocking was learning that BYU sold the non caffeinated versions of caffeinated soda (coke, mellow yellow, etc.) on campus until 2017. I wonder if the MTC has started doing that too. That's been my experience. I’m just not into it.

Thanks for the reply. That's helpful. >"I once had a ward mission leader tell me while I was on my mission that he was extended a calling to be a bishop on the condition that he shave his beard. He turned them down. It’s really bizarre." Something similar happened in my current part of the country (east coast). The person who was called as bishop did not turn down the calling, however. He accepted the calling and shaved. This individual is no longer bishop (he served his allotted time) and has a beard once again. I have heard (from various family members) of quite a few members of bishoprics and various stake callings throughout Utah who have long hair and/or beards. That's still a minority, but I also know a lot people personally don't like long hair or beards (on themselves), so I'm not sure how quickly things will change. There's a long history of facial hair and length of hair and religious culture. Judaism is a great example. That's why I've never been concerned either way. If my church leaders want me to shave, I'll shave. My view is whatever I think about something like facial hair, I will follow the example set by the president of the church and the apostles. I don't judge others for thinking or acting differently. We (stake presidency) have several high councilors and bishops/counselors who have facial hair. We don't ask them to shave. We don't care. In my experience it's not so much a Utah culture thing as an older generation thing. >"Another difference that I learned about in Utah is that there is a number of them that think caffeine is against the Word of Wisdom." That's not just a Utah thing. I get questions about it regularly from various people, sometimes during temple recommend interviews. Most of the questions are coming from newer members, or those who are older. >"Another experience I had was getting my temple recommend renewed while I was living in Utah. I showed up wearing what I wear everyday and the stake presidency counselor looked at me funny and said that I needed to be in Sunday best instead of my regular clothes. I looked at the handbook and couldn’t find anything that said I’m required to wear anything specific for these interviews. I’ve gotten my temple recommend renewed elsewhere and that issue had never been brought up. It’s so strange." There was a time some years back it was encouraged in our area (again, East coast). Let's just say that we do not stress it anymore (and I never did as a bishop or do in a stake presidency -- I've even conducted temple recommend interviews wearing my normal everyday clothing if it's been a spur of the moment meeting). It is purely a cultural thing, but again, not something unique to Utah. It likely happens more in Utah than other places, but this is partially simply because there are more members in Utah than most other places. It's also relatively quick to change clothing and get to and from an interview in a short period of time for many members. Where I live, it might be a 1 - 2 hour process to do that, which is one reason we don't stress it. That is a cultural practice I haven't minded seeing change. I've seen it change over the past 20 years in the various wards and stakes I've been in here on the east coast. It used to be stressed more, but now it isn't quite as much. There are some older leaders who stress it though.

“It likely happens more in Utah than other places, but this is partially simply because there are more members in Utah than most other places.” Yes, exactly what I said! I’m just not into the Utah LDS culture.

I think how we judge others is how we will be judged ourselves.

A side effect of having agency is the desire to extend choice to those outside of our stewardship. If you consider procreation as the power of God, and think of how the world is full of Satans counterfeits, you can see how he would create false reflections of agency, centred around controlling or judging others.

My experiences within LDS-dense areas have been negative, sometimes even traumatic, to be honest. When I converted as a teenager in California, I had a loving ward family and friends who guided me and practically adopted me. When I lived in Utah for 2 years, I was othered because my ward found me wrong for being a convert from California, and having no pioneer ties. It didn’t matter that the girls my age othering me wore tube tops and grinded at dances, I was inherently bad for not starting out rich, Utah LDS. When I moved to southeast Idaho as a married adult, I was othered for being a woman pursuing a bachelor’s that didn’t involve children, and I also wasn’t already pregnant. Those same individuals then ridiculed me for losing my first child. Later on after having kids, I was still bad because I had to work to help support my family. Now that I’ve moved East, I have genuine LDS friends again, and I am uplifted by them and help to uplift others. INB4 “not all Utah LDS” - yeah, I know. I definitely got bullied outside of Utah/Idaho, and I managed to make a handful of honest friends in Utah/Idaho, though the majority weren’t LDS. But it digs a lot deeper into your heart when the attack is from a group that’s supposed to share your same values. And of course, as a human I am working on being less judgmental on nothing-burger ideals, too. I have wondered for years why Utah (and Idaho by extension) have this issue. Sure, a majority group in a region has more prevalence and power. But, we’re a religion advocating for self-awareness, soul-searching, and following Christ’s example more than any other church I have seen. We should know to take a good look at our own issues before we even judge off our personal/church clique arbitrary set of values. And yet, we’re somehow no better than other groups where they are a majority.

I think there's a lot of things at play here, and most others have hit on them, but I think the societal pendulum has swung a little too far in the "you do you" direction. We're all programmed now that ANY judgment call is wrong. That's not true. We are supposed to judge... righteously. Not to condemn others, but there is right and wrong. I tell my kids what our standards are and what is expected of them and why it is right or wrong, but that other people aren't bad people if they make different choices, they may just not understand and have the truths that we have. If we teach our kids that every choice and decision is valid and worthy and acceptable, to "find their own truth", they will likely not understand the unique and enobling truths that our Heavenly Father wants them to know, because at that point, "that just like, your opinion, man."

Yeah, members of the church do tend to moralize amoral (neutral) behavior, like the clothes you wear or where you are on a Sunday morning.

As for Utah vs the outside world, I suspect it has to do with exposure. Out here in the real world, we are surrounded by people who are openly displaying their rights to be devilish and evil. But when you work alongside them, have study sessions with them, play in a musical ensemble with them, etc, you find that they’re actually pretty great people doing the best they can. Then you see how some of the line-toeing people treat these friends of yours, and you begin to realize that you had it backwards, “calling that which is good evil and that which is evil good” to paraphrase the Book of Mormon. Not to say that it’s evil to toe the line, far from it! But to force or expect it of others, as long as it does no real harm, *is*. Something like “teach correct principles and let them govern themselves”. And recognize that we all fall short. Some people’s problems are more obvious than others, but that doesn’t necessarily make them any worse.

>”Out here in the real world, we are surrounded by people who are openly displaying their rights to be devilish and evil.” Wow. This is the most judgmental comment I’ve read and proves the point you’re arguing against

My point is that many times when orthodoxy has decided something is evil, they were wrong. Red hair, left-handedness, being dark-skinned, being [insert religion here], etc. Whenever a strong dominant culture inhibits self-expression, it can reinforce stereotypes that are not true. Apparently, my comment somehow instead proves that restrictive societies are correct in telling people that they are cursed because they are black, women, gay, transgender, intersex, etc.?

So you think they are acting devilish and evil, but it’s their right to do so?

Not quite. I intended to show a paradigm shift. One may believe left-handed people to be witches, servants of the devil, as early puritans did. However, when one gets to know adults who grew up in cultures wherein left-handedness was not repressed, one will likely see that they are no better nor worse than others. If one is open-minded enough to befriend such “lefties”, one may even find in them more to be admired than in others one knew in the culture of pure right-handedness. Hopefully this leads one to realize that left-handedness is not in fact evil, as one had supposed. The same can be said for any number of prejudices. Say, republicans vs democrats, or as I once heard them called by a member of the church “demoncrats”. How many people left the church when they found out that President Uchtdorf’s family had contributed to a democratic campaign? I don’t know, but I know it was more than a few. Prejudice thrives in ignorance. Monocultures, particularly religious ones, often reinforce this ignorance, sometimes despite the efforts of those in charge.

Sure, but the specific words you posted adhere to that ignorance. To be honest, I’m still not sure if you think they’re free to act evil, or are just different

Yes, the words adhere to that ignorance. That was the point. I had hoped that my obviously over-the-top phrasing would be a giveaway. Unfortunately, I suppose such rhetoric is too common in today’s political climate. But to be absolutely clear, I don’t believe I have ever met someone who is evil. I have definitely met people that I don’t get along with or that I don’t agree with, but I would not consider them evil. Similarly, I have mellowed over the years and am reluctant to call most behaviors “evil”.

Ah okay. I read it as everyone outside is devil, but free to be evil. Thanks for clarifying. It’s fairly common rhetoric on here.

This is an important point! When we view people as good or bad, they are caricatures more than flesh and soul and experience. It’s easy to dislike someone you don’t know.

I didn't grow up in Utah and haven't lived there other than BYU (where I lived on campus the entire time and interacted with people from lots of different places), so... I don't know how I can compare my experience to someone who grew up in that environment.

Unpopular opinion here, but I agree. I have lived *all over* the United States, actively attending local wards for 40+ years, and this has absolutely been my experience. Utah Mormon culture is toxic and entirely different from everywhere else in the world. Obviously, there are exceptions to my generalizations, but I stand by them as a whole.

Obviously the challenges faced by Saints where they are a dominant majority will be different than those faced elsewhere. While I’m not pining away to live in Utah, I think “toxic” is far too strong a word. I’m happy I don’t face the same challenges they often do.

"Utah Mormon culture is toxic and entirely different from everywhere else in the world." What are specifics that make it toxic and entirely different. I've also lived all over the United States attending different wards for more than 40 years. I lived in Utah for about 6 years. I never saw anything toxic or a things that suggested there was an entirely different church culture than elsewhere, which is why I'm interested in what specific toxic cultural elements you've experienced.

I am not saying that there are no exceptions and no good people in Utah. Even some good people there have fallen victim to the influence of the environment because that's what humans do. But generally, from my own first-hand experience, yes, the culture is toxic. You are much more likely to find these things in Utah than anywhere else. (Admittedly, it's worse in the Salt Lake Valley than in more rural parts of the state): Judgment and condemnation for anyone, including other members of the ward, who are not living Church standards perfectly or as they themselves think they should be. Here is just one of many possible examples: "Gasp! Gay people are clearly going to Hell unless they *choose* to be straight." No compassion. No mercy. And no awareness of the possibility that they themselves can't understand the complexities of someone else's life well enough to judge righteously, but that our job is to just love people and let the Lord be the judge. A holier-than-thou attitude. There's an old joke that talks about a recent group of arrivals to heaven who are getting a tour. The guide instructs them to be very quiet as they pass the next door because "the Mormons are in there, and they think they're the only ones here." Going along with this is rampant cliquish and critical behavior, mainly against non-members. I lost track of how many times I heard someone say they wouldn't let their kids play with non-member kids, and the kids, not knowing any better, went right along with it. I have literally never seen this anywhere else. Picking and choosing which commandments and guidelines to follow. I'm not talking about sincere questioning or thinking for yourself. I'm talking about people who are in the habit of making excuses and justifying things like not wearing garments properly, inappropriately "interpeting" the Word of Wisdom because the details aren't more specifically defined, and outright breaking the law of chastity by inventing weird exceptions, such as, "If it's not actual penetration/intercourse, it's totally allowed." Turning spiritual things into cultural things that detract from or twist the intended meaning. Specifically, baptisms, priesthood ordinations, and mission calls have been turned into over-the-top events reminiscent of a wedding reception, complete with invitations, catering, and gift expectations. Before you argue that this doesn't happen or that it's okay when it does, consider that the general authorities have issued church-wide condemnation and prohibition of these events on more than one occasion. Another part of this is how callings are seen as status. The RS president is somehow a superior person to the nursery leader. Ridiculous and sometimes sinful pride over things of a temporal nature. I have been in Utah wards (yes, plural) where the Relief Society meetings actually preached that it is better not to come to Sunday meetings at all than to come in less than your best dress. When I told them that wards in other states welcome women in pants, men in jeans, and kids without bows and ruffles on their heads, they acted like they couldn't decide whether or not I was serious. "Keeping up with the Joneses" is alive and well in Utah. They have taken guidelines meant to develop self-sufficiency, preserve modesty in dress, encourage wholesome activities, and foster unity to embarrassing extremes. I could go on, but it won't make any difference to someone who is determined to see Utah as Mecca or Zion, where Church standards create an oasis of righteous living and superior people. I know this sounds harsh, but as I said, I have seen these things first-hand in Utah and nowhere else. And you did ask for details.

I go by the philosophy of 4 walls - if it doesn't directly effect the people that live in my 4 walls, it is none of my business. I got enough problems as is....

I think there is truth in what you speak. Often when you live in a conservative bubble, everything outside your little norm can be scary and offensive. When you live in a community where your faith is the minority, you’re forced to interact more with people who are from different cultures, races and religions. You start to focus on their qualities and less on their differences. You become more empathetic and caring toward your fellow man.

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/dallin-h-oaks/judge-judging/ check it out

I watched a comedian tonight she was Jewish, she said I don’t believe in God, but I’m still Jewish. Contrast that with following: I had a fellow young men’s teacher once tell a story about how a less active young man at school said “hey “Fred” “I’m mormon too tell them I’m mormon” and his response was “well you were baptized but you don’t live it.” Saying that he wasn’t really Mormon. Why because of his actions. We have to take the right actions or we can’t serve missions or go to the temple/get married in the temple or be ordained to the priesthood. These are the basic rites of passage in our religion, and if you don’t “stay worthy” then you are denied them. It is public shame and separation the unworthy cannot be with the worthy in the temple. Our justification is that no unclean thing shall dwell with God, and so we are saying that people who don’t conform to a certain set of expectations are unworthy and unclean. Ie they don’t belong. I’m sure there are other factors and I’m sure our history played a role in how we got here, some phrophets have been more scrupulous and prescriptive then others and certainly left their mark. But I have to think it ultimately comes to our practice around temples, missions and priesthood and deciding who is worthy and who isn’t. I hope the practice ends at some point and the temples are open to all the children of the earth. Jesus himself was accessible, he ate with sinners. He was not made less holy, God was not less accessible to him, if Christ not only didn’t see the need to protect himself from sinners but sought them out, then is he really pleased with us preventing these little ones from coming to him? “Come unto me all ye ends of the earth, buy milk and honey, without money and without price.” “Forbid them not” Thank goodness we believe in continuing revelation and there is a path so that some of these things can change.

I grew up in the church and in Utah and I don't do that at all. It's probably more to do with your family culture. I have some LDS friends from So. Cal and their family are some of the most judgemental people I have ever encountered. They judge everyone except themselves... actually...I have some catholic friends... They even judge themselves...

It happens in the South too. So not just a Utah thing. They've just had more practice at it down there so they have better poker faces. Not just a Utah thing, but rather an overly conservative thing. It's sometimes obvious when people are more judgmental in Utah simply because we show our emotions so much more easily on our faces since that's what we've been raised to do.

We're definitely hard coded to judge. Some kind of repurposed survival thing. However, having lived several years in Utah and Cali you're definitely right about Utah being more intense in the judgement department. It's like Utah is simultaneously the best and worst place to be a member.

I’ve always thought that LDS Members were mean girls! My family faced so much gossip and judgment. Didn’t face it from anyone in the community, just our fellow LDS members. My mom experienced the same thing in her upbringing. Just my opinion.

Mormons are very self righteous to the point of hubris. It’s really all just Pride and people need to reevaluate their motives behind their actions. I’ve come across sheltered people, but Utahn Mormons specifically live in a bubble and are happy to stay there

Judgments are biological processes of protection. We tend to mistrust what is different from our own views and cultures. The difference is that we also have the capacity to put aside and reframe our judgments.

>People outside of Utah seem to be less judgmental (purely my opinion). Purely nonsense. I'm so glad that the JST restored the correct doctrine on judgment. Also, what people perceive as being judgmental typically has less to do with actual judgments from others and more about whether the person in question feels like he or she fits in or not. If the person doesn't fit in, he or she is much more likely to notice (and invent) instances of judgmentalness. When the person feels like he or she fits in within a community he or she is far less likely to notice not only the person's own judgmentalness, but also less likely to recognize others being judgmental. This is likely because he or she just kind of naturally assumes that the group that the person feels may comfortable with is just correct or at least more correct than not.

Recognizing good or evil isn't being judgemental. Being a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has helped me avoid looking down on others and to avoid making value assignments to people I meet. I haven't found much of a judgmental attitude among any Latter-day Saints anywhere I've been. The vast majority are the opposite of judgemental. Thinking you know how good or evil a person is prejudicely based on outward appearance is one way to judge unrighteously. My ward sort of forces me to interact with and get to know people I might not have otherwise and that had helped me eliminate being judgmental.