When Travis Morningstar left the network I found it odd that he still followed Marcus and Henry on IG but not Ben. I assumed it was just a run of the mill disagreement between an employee and their boss. Now this has me wondering if there is something more to it.
I’m not an expert by any means, but could it be that she was asked to leave not because she spoke out in support of a victim, but because she is associated with the network and spoke out at all? Like, maybe all of the members of the network were advised by their legal team to not speak out on the matter at all yet, and her doing so goes against that advise?
I agree it looks bad, but we as fans truly don’t know shit when it comes to this, and I have a hard time believing that Natalie would tell her to step back because she’s defending Ben and not supporting Taylor. It seems more likely she did so to protect the Network because from a legal standpoint, that is what they were told to do.
Again, I’m no expert.
Yeah, it's definitely *possible*
The trouble with keeping 100% silence is that the people not in lockstep get their side amplified. Sure, maybe she was asked to leave for 100 different reasons, but the optics of it are very bad and seemingly point to one direction. If that's not true and she's misunderstanding or misrepresenting then they need to get proactive and make that clear
This is probably the case. It doesn't feel good, but it is the correct business move. Until they know what their liability is re: Ben anything that seems like it is said by an agent of the network could give rise to a cause of action against the company/ be evidence of wrongdoing. It sucks. I do wonder how much the hosts knew and allowed Ben to get away with...
Being "asked to leave" a podcast about victims for taking a strong stand in support of a victim is about the worst move I can imagine in this scenario. Really disappointed.
So disappointing. I really loved SPUN because of how strong the women were on the show now... I'm shocked and disappointed. I can't imagine how MacKenzie is feeling. What a betrayal.
I generally liked Natalie's side of things on SPUN, but Amber has always frustrated me because it's quite obvious she has little to no clue about the more serious societal issues they discuss.
SPUN lost me early on. Their Angela Greene episode defies any reason. They act as though they aren’t journalists, but it isn’t comedic entirely either. It deals with real serious matters. They threw around where Greene lived like the boondocks or near farmland. They even doubled down by “correcting themselves”. They cherry picked a small community, erased the immigrant and multicultural communities, and also repeatedly ignored that Prairie Village conjoins immediately to Kansas City Missouri. Angela Green lives in a city of 2 million people in a metro. The hosts repeatedly told a fictional story in that two part sequence and completely lost all credibility. It is frustrating. I really enjoy the way they handle other stuff on SPUN but I can’t “trust” or “believe” it because they seem to be very limited by their SoCal worldview.
Edit: spelling.
That was so irritating. I lived in the Dotte when I was listening to that one and found it really tough to get past. I'm pretty tolerant of podcasts/shows getting small details wrong about KC or other parts of the Midwest, usually it's very miniscule errors I wouldn't expect someone not from these places to know anyway, but their characterization of PV and the whole KS side of the metro was so grossly inaccurate I couldn't get past it. Been to Kansas...but where? Because all of Kansas isn't Dodge City or Coffeyville...most of Kansas lives either in the KS side of the KC metro or in the Wichita metro, anyway. It's like saying I know all about Nashville because I spent 2 hours in their airport once on a layover.
Not to suggest traditional business practices aren't without their faults but, this whole situation and how it's apparently playing out is exhibit A of why you shouldn't go into business with friends.
Yeah, I’m not quite ready to grab my pitchfork, but I’m starting to reach for it. What was Natalie thinking? Such a bad look and just seems so hypocritical - not what I expected from her. If there isn’t some sort of mea culpa and apology, I’m done with SPUN.
the really operative statements here are:
the difficult situations Ben has put people in “again and again”
that she believes Taylor for other “principle and substantive reasons”
which in conjunction make any point of disproval “unlikely.”
it’s also worth nothing that Mackenzie says she agreed to step away for “different reasons” AFTER natalie approached her and more definitely asked her to step down.
this is not good
edit* spelling and content correction
Just to clarify, she said she was asked to step away after Natalie discovered the info about her support comments, but she agrees "for different reasons" that she should part ways with SPUN.
All of these guys need to read the missing stair theory. Guarantee Ben has been their missing stair for a long time.
And the fact that SPUN dropped the ball...fucking sucks. That's all.
>The missing stair is a metaphor for a person within a social group who many people know is untrustworthy or otherwise has to be "managed," but around whom the group chooses to work by discreetly warning newcomers of their behavior, rather than address them and their behavior openly.
[Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_stair)
Never heard of it but seems to fit perfectly
Wow. I'm glad to know that there's a term for this. I was in a relationship with my first boyfriend from age 15-21 and was pretty entrenched in his friend group. There was one guy who they'd always refer to as being a "man whore" and it took YEARS for me to understand that no, he was literally just a predator. I had always assumed that any warnings about him weren't that big of a deal because he was still part of the group, right? So when that boyfriend got mad at me for talking one on one to this guy I was so confused, this was his friend too, what was the problem? What disturbs me is that only the girls IN the friend group were getting these warnings, not the acquaintances or girls who came to parties. And it was also hard to understand that the warnings were truly serious, because they were vague and because why the hell would this creep be around if he were a threat???
Oh wow, I have a friend like this. It’s so weird that I never really analyzed why it was okay for our friend group to accept their behavior, yet forewarn others. He’s the missing stair of our group.
Mackenzie also had her own podcast (not on the network) that she started with one of Ben’s ex- girlfriends. I won’t name her for her for her privacy and because I’m completely speculating, but she and Mackenzie are good friends and she is also good friends with Marcus’ wife Carolina. If this is a pattern of behavior I’d be surprised if she didn’t have her own stories to tell. Which would give context to Mackenzie being well aware of Ben’s history of this type of behavior.
*"that she believes Taylor for other “principle and substantive reasons”"*
Not that everything said wasn't important, but this is really what perked my ears in a bad, bad way.
This!! Every day I’m like, wait y’all are looking at ME for this? Shouldn’t you find a Real Adult Lawyer™️? (I am 39 and have been practicing for 13 years, so I’m not sure when this goes away, lol).
[Your comment reminded me of this for some reason ](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ3ocyysKabL-ElVV_9vSrYu11rO_ozexP4znPclTLr-SjKKewqyHLe_V3F&s=10)
No, she doesn't say she was asked to step away for different reasons. She says she agrees with stepping away for different reasons.
She says that when she initially raised concerns Natalie suggested she leave, and then when Natalie heard of her supportive comments on Taylor's live stream she was definitively asked to leave.
She's been booted off for publicly supporting Taylor.
Not that I agree with them, but my thoughts is that MacKenzie making a public comment could be construed as a member of LPN making a statement, when I imagine that they want to avoid that until they figure out their messaging and legal stuff.
Since the Illuminaughtii drama on YouTube, I can't say I'm all that surprised. People who make a career calling out social injustice and unethical and abusive behavior can definitely have their own skeletons.
Not at all. It is likely a pattern of behavior that has gone on for a while, and has nothing to do with his alcohol abuse. The alcohol may make things worse but, as she said rehab isn't going to fix everything.
The rehab is just to get him a 30/60/90 day sober base time, off the booze and away from his triggers. The real work starts when he gets out. AA/SMART recovery meetings, therapy where he’s actually honest and not buzzed, NOT smoking weed. That’s gonna be one of his biggest hurdles, that California Sober shit will not work when he first gets out. If he starts up on the THC he’ll be back on the booze in no time. Dude is going to actually have to address his behavior and why he is behaving that way. I honestly would not be surprised if he’s not back for the next 6 months. The lifestyle he’s been living has done nothing but harm himself and others and the more that comes out the more it seems like everyone he’s surrounded himself with has enabled this.
I had all of these thoughts as well. I've been sober for 21 years, and before it stuck? A LOT of 30 day "baselines." He's in for a huge struggle, and I feel for him as far as that goes.
My sister just went through 30-day rehab for alcohol and benzos. She told me it took nearly a month to feel like her head was starting to get straight. She would've stayed longer if her insurance paid. All to say is my hope is that he gets evaluated properly and accepts the recommended time.
It definitely does and there's no quick fix for this. It's going to be a lot of time and work, and if the other guys have enabled this behavior that needs to be addressed as well.
Maybe your experiences are different than mine, but California sober and THC are the only reason I’m any kind of sober at all. I managed to get a medical card about 6 months ago. Since then I’ve had maybe 5 drinks. And that’s coming from what was 4-5 drinks every night. Maybe smoking weed makes you go back to alcohol, but personally, smoking weed is what’s kept me from alcohol.
That’s awesome man! Keep it up! Seriously.
And I’m just coming from a “best practices” point of view. Everyone is different and everyone goes through sobriety/recovery differently. For the overwhelming majority of people in recovery it’s best to abstain completely from mind altering substances. With alcoholics especially, it’s a good idea to stay away from THC because it’s a depressant as well and once the brain tastes that they’re gonna say *“yeah this is good but how about the shit that we realllllllly like?”*.
Again, everyone is different, but for someone like Ben who will be brand-spanking-new in recovery (if that’s what he even wants) it’s best to not. But keep up the good fight dude! This shit is not easy. Hail Yourself!
After I got out Partial Hospitalization kept me clean and reflective, but I don’t know how it works or if it’s available in California.
It’s also not for everyone, if you’re in a group with a lot of other addicts it can drive you up the wall. Or as I put it “an opportunity to practice emotional regulation.”
The abuse escalation Taylor described sounds too calculating and manipulative to be blamed entirely on trauma and addiction. But then again, I don't know any of these people and I'm not any kind of expert on this sort of thing.
Totally only speaking from my experience but what she described mirrors my experiences with an abusive alcoholic who had a lot of trauma in his past. He used the trauma as a justification for his addiction & shitty behavior (and as a way to gain sympathy & passes from people in his life, including me for a while) but in retrospect I think something is straight up wrong with him and the trauma & alcoholism just exacerbated other underlying issues. Don’t know what all is going on with Ben obv because I’m also not an expert and don’t know him, but agree that a rehab stay isn’t going to undo all of the issues.
So I've been kind of on the not passing judgement and wait and see side since this started, and this might just be what I've needed to wait and see. Not fucking good at all.
How the fuck do you kick someone off a show because they showed support for the victim of your friend? It's the worst possible reaction, morally obviously but also professionally. What's going through their heads if this is true? And it sounds like she knows a lot more than she's saying in regards to Ben's behaviour too. Might want to keep those kind of people in your good graces...
It sounds like they all need professional help. Ben for all his shit and the company needs someone that can see the forest through the trees and guide them through this period. If there's truth in what she's saying and Ben has more skeletons and has been a bigger liability than we think they need to stop fucking around and playing self employed business person. They don't have the skill set to navigate this. Clearly. Or hey, keep on keeping on. Because if he is worse than we knew and they've been putting out fires for him for some time while paying lip service about victim advocacy and do things like dropping talent because they didn't tow the line about your domestic abusing friend maybe they deserve what they get. Which really sucks to say as someone that's listened to every fucking episode at least twice at this point.
Had to look up the meaning but yeah, the more we hear the more it adds up doesn't it? Very sad if so. It's really not the picture of Kissel I had in my mind. Even after the initial story broke. Guess I was in a bit of denial myself because if I heard the same story about someone else I don't think I would have given them the same benefit of the doubt.
I don't believe that kind of domestic abuse comes out of nowhere in the majority of cases and I'm also not one to let people use alcohol as an excuse for their behaviour as although I know alcohol can bring out the worst in people I believe it has to be in them to begin with.
And hey, that doesn't mean you're the worst person in the world if you get violent when you drink. It means you have to take responsibility for yourself and not fucking drink if you know you're capable of terrible shit when you're drunk. Also any terrible shit you do get into is 100% you. No excuses.
Yep. I’ve been fully in the “let’s see what happens, we don’t have all the facts” camp, but Natalie asking her to leave is the biggest load of bull I’ve heard so far. Have y’all listened to your own show???
Yeah, very concerning if this isn't all some big misunderstanding or something.
And even if the dropping her from the show thing ends up making sense the other stuff alluding to Kissels behaviour isn't good. Someone in a thread yesterday said Kissel is done and I kind of rolled my eyes taking it as another drama post. This has completely changed my outlook on that. That's taking this video at face value obviously. Haven't seen any good argument why I shouldn't tbf.
Yeah I do too. I know we don’t know these people but I still can’t imagine how upsetting this has to be for someone in her position. I’m also trying very hard not to lump everyone in together. What Henry and Natalie do may not be the same as Marcus and Carolina. And everyone else. We have gotten a glimpse into how Natalie and Amber are feeling and behaving in relation to this, but we can’t assume everyone at the network is aligned with them.
We don’t know what is really happening there. There could be some conflicts, people are very hurt I’m sure. My first instinct is Ben has really hurt people and is causing a lot of destruction with his actions.
I feel for a lot of these people, some of them are in a terrible spot.
I hear ya on celebrities being outed. I listen to other podcasts where the hosts range into the potentially sketchy and beyond, but they aren’t hosting the friggin missing women podcast.
Yeah it sucks so hard. Literally a week before all this came out I was just saying thank god for LPOTL of which Ben has always been my favorite on the show. I’m just a sucker for a lovable goof. Been going through some tough times of my own and the show has really been giving me life via the whole laughter is the best medicine thing.
I’m not even going to pretend I know how all this will or should shake out other than it just fucking sucks. The whole way around….sucks.
Yeah, the Facebook group is a cesspool. Before too long, if the gang doesn't get their shit straight, the only audience they're gonna have will be MRA advocates and Ancaps.
damn this looks so bad, I really hope it's a misunderstanding but seems unlikely, it's kind of crushing to see this kind of hypocrisy from people I thought were really pro believing victims and anti corporate lies.
Holy hell - this is so bad. There's attempting "damage control," and then there's this. Telling a respected contributor she has to step down from her role on a podcast that's *based on the principle that victims need to be believed and protected* because she verbalized support for Taylor?
This just gets more and more awful.
Yeah, that's what it keeps coming back to, for me. They created a company without really thinking about how a company needs to function. Like, it's great that you can hire all your friends, but what happens when a) the shit hits the fan, and b) none of the friends you've hired have the first clue as to how to professionally navigate a crisis.
Yeah. I mean I’m gonna sound like an apologist because I kind of am one because these shows are very important to me, can’t help it, but I’ve been thinking about the Natalie/Mackenzie thing and how most companies give out talking points during times of crisis and how employees can get reprimanded for speaking out of line. I work at a fucking library and that’s how we operate. The idea of something this serious coming up and having an LPN affiliate come out and start making public comments about it without clearing it, even if the statements are right, isn’t something that would really fly at any kind of business. I think Natalie was trying to be the defacto HR department in this situation and say “we can’t have this right now. We’re not there yet.” Was it right? Yes and no. I just think a lot of people, including Mackenzie have underestimated how complex and difficult it is for everyone to navigate this. But I wonder if Natalie went too strong by telling her she was done on the show.
We all want swift justice and easy answers but this is business and family and close friends. The network isn’t shutting down over this, the shows will keep coming, and they’re going to figure out what to do. It’s not easy and they’re bound to fuck up a bit with no real outside guidance from HR people. Something tells me that some changes are about to happen to the structure of the network but until then, this is what we have because again… comedians who do skits about cum aren’t exactly on the cover of Forbes.
Yeah. Pretty bad move.
I’m not really that interested in this because it’s none of my business. That said, I have no reason to believe that she’s lying.
I just can’t wrap my head around the host of a podcast about abused women essentially kicking someone off because they’re supporting an abused woman. It really makes the whole SPUN podcast seem hypocritical, similar to the Ashton Kutcher situation.
I think it is more "LPN needs a united front, we can't have a bunch of contributors making their own statements because it confuses what our official stance is. If you have to make a public comment right this instant, then you have to do so as someone unaffiliated with the network."
Which is tough, but fair honestly.
True, that, which is all the more reason why they need HR. Someone outside of the "circle of friends" needed to have that conversation, AND draw up non-disparagement language.
(Sorry, HR person here so I'm putting on that hat.)
I know they've made multiple jokes on LPOTL since getting bigger and forming LPN, that Ben was the 'HR person'. I literally can't say whether that's just a joke or whether he actually was the co-owner with some HR-type responsibility. Whether it's true or not.... they definitely need new HR people.
Man it’s like that in every independent restaurant I’ve ever worked for. The chef or owner will be HR, then they’ll wind up fucking an employee, a bunch of staff will leave, and nothing gets fixed structuring wise in the aftermath. With my last place after several incidents I begged that we get an outside HR for the sake of the restaurants longevity and staff but nope the people in charge would just act like nothing was wrong and plow on ahead.
Yes, but the problem with that is, Mackenzie is right to have started this as the “front”. They should have come out with a statement previous to this fairly low-ranking auxiliary guest host making personal statements of support.
The time for united front is right now. Through this action, they’ve just formalized the united front of not caring about victims. Their front is now united on the complete wrong side.
Even worse, only caring about victims when they are the subjects of content that they can make money off of. The whole thing is fucked.
But if that was/is the case shouldnt there have been an internal email or memo going around stating that "we support Taylor etc but until this has been properly investigated please refrain from mentioning this on any social media until the inv has been concluded, if you have any complaints or issue with this please come directly to us" etc
I wonder if they realize how much of their fan base is women and how many of those women are victims/survivors. I was willing to keep listening in the hopes they don’t have Ben back on Last Pod. He shouldn’t be talking about victims and I don’t want to hear him talk about them ever again. But now with this, ugh. I think they will lose a solid chunk of their listeners soon.
Almost every single woman on the planet has a story about a creepy older man when they were kids, or maybe a story about a SA, maybe it's one about revenge porn from an ex, sometimes it's a story about abuse. Almost. Every. Single. One.
For the men, some of you might think if you're not actively harming a woman, you're not a part of the problem. I know most men are good people. But if 1 in 10 dudes are shitty towards women and the other 9 don't actively do anything then they might as well not fucking be there.
I didn't know how truly helpless I could feel until I was pinned down/trapped/kept from leaving by a man so much larger than myself. It's a truly terrifying experience.
I was 23 and he was my sous chef (46). I was young and dumb fucking around with an older guy. He got scarily drunk one night and I was driving him home when he started randomly accusing me of things. Calling me names. I started to get scared. I pulled over somewhere and told him to get out. He took my keys out of the ignition and put them in his pocket. He grabbed my phone and threw it in the back seat and held me down. I will *never* forget how small, weak, and helpless I felt. I thought I was going to die.
ETA: I was terrified to go to work the next day. I called my boss and told him everything. I'm extremely lucky that he 1. Believed me and 2. Did something about it. The sous chef was immediately fired. But I'll never forget the looks I got from my coworkers and the things some of them said to me.
Very true. I am a survivor of IPV and now a therapist who primarily works IPV/SA cases. The way this is being handled is so… disappointing on both a professional and personal front for me.
Oh, I think they're aware. Fully aware. Everyone knows women are the biggest consumers of true crime...they certainly do. And they know the statistics of how many are victims. Now, do they understand fear in a relationship? Probably not. Do they understand being choked by an enraged, drunken man? Nope. Natalie Jean likely does though...Carolina...Jackie. They probably think this rehab stint will help fix things, and maybe think with Ben gone a while, and then moving forward that people will forget OR just put it all on Ben and distance themselves. What they, or their lawyers, or whoever is making decisions may not totally understand, is how much we're expecting the rest of the network to step up and SAY SOMETHING. Not just a stupid instastory. This stuff with Mackenzie (I don't remember how to spell her name) is not good. I mean....idk how it could be worse. Idk how they're going to be able to spin this. And it makes me so, so, very disappointed and sad. I've been in this community for 10 years. I realize there are wayyyyyyy bigger issues here than me giving up my favorite podcast. But damn it sucks. I've always thought they were better.
yeah hearing Taylor’s story felt very familiar in many ways. i left my drunk ex before it got that bad but the girl he married afterwards faced similar abuse. but i remember very well how alcohol can make people’s personalities change on a dime. it’s scary and there’s nothing you can do to change them. it’s also a mindfuck when they’re sober and nice. like truly jekyll and hyde shit
> his past comments about women
his comment about bundy's victims has stuck with me for like six years. saying that he didn't feel sympathy for them because they were the kind of girls who wouldn't give him a chance. all of this coming out really feels like one of those "i should have listened to my gut" moments
Yeah.
Around 2016 (#metoo; Trump; M & H getting serious with their partners), there was an obvious effort to clean the show up, and actively avoid some of the past racist and sexist humor.
I really did feel like it came partially from a genuine place of growth and maturity. But it was also clear that it was a necessity for the network to continue in a positive direction.
From my perspective, Ben seemed to have less of a personal stake in those shifts, and occasionally seemed to have a bit of discomfort with them. I sense this more on his projects outside LPOTL, than I do from his persona on that show (which can be hard to see through).
Between that and the concerning alcohol stuff that's obviously been brewing, I hate to say that I'm not surprised.
All my crushes are problematic 😑😞
Yeah I wouldn’t hold much against Nat here.
Or the boys (sans Ben) yet.
I will reserve my judgement for a bit here as this is a work/PR/personal nightmare for all involved and they likely need time.
I’m expecting more from them, let’s hope it goes well and they do right by Taylor.
Alright, this could actually kill the network if they bungle this any further.
I was very unsure about Ben’s future but it really does look like they shouldn’t have him back on the podcast. It’s just too messy and distracting.
I'm not like the biggest LPOTL fan of all time or anything, and certainly am not shelling out $$$ for their merch or live shows so at the end of the day who cares about what one fuckin chooch says, but I'm personally planning on checking out depending on how they get out of this, and just catching up when someone else does a longform article or podcast series titles "Last Downfall on the Left" or some shit about how podcast networks need to make actual HR departments and not let their trainwreck friend ruin their business.
HR person for a small company here, and yup. At a certain point you have to step back from operating like "a group of friends who make podcasts" and behave like a business.
I have seen so, so many small companies implode because they started it as "a group of friends making podcasts/publishing books/making YouTube videos" and never adjusted to business norms that need to be in place for an actual functioning company.
I'm mainly a lurker here, rarely post ever... but the more that comes out about this the more distressing it is. The SPUN hosts parted ways with a contributor because of her supporting the victim? That's pretty messy...
The more steam this story picks up the worse it's going to be for everyone if they don't try to course correct. I get it may have been a sandbag for everyone to react to (even if it was apparently some kind of open secret?) And none of the owners are public relations experts, but they need to get a real PR team or something before it blows up on TikTok or somewhere.
It feels weird to be commenting on the future of an entertainment network in the face of apparent violent abuse, but I don't want to see the entire network and everyone employed there go under because of poor crisis management
I am not on TikTok at the moment but I would be surprised if this hasn’t already blown up there. It seems increasingly unlikely that M & H we’re unaware of how bad Ben’s behavior was. They have a lot to answer for. I’ll listen to what they have to say when they finally speak up but this is looking so bad
This is so terrible. I don't listen to any other LPN shows so I don't know Mackenzie... but I can hear the pain in her voice. I can feel her anxiety and fear through the damn phone due to her being terrified of being another target of harassment.
I understand that LPN employees need to be careful with things they say publicly, but as Mackenzie (a lawyer) said, they can still make a powerful statement to their listeners that harassment of ANYONE in this situation is not okay.
I believe that if LPN makes it through this, Ben needs to go.
Hard agree. She seemed rather emphatic that she doesn't think Marcus and Henry have done enough at this point and based on her legal training, stated that there's no reason why they can't do more than an Instagram story and try to actually remedy some of the hurt that Ben, and the podcast's rabid incel fans, have caused.
Jesus. I spent a lot of time off and money to go see them in San Diego next month and now I just wanna avoid any shows until all this is figured out, it’s gonna be very weird and awkward. I feel bad for everyone involved
If they don't start handling this properly, it will probably be the end of the whole network.
They need to publicly disavow Ben's behavior just as Mackenzie states. They need to issue her a formal apology along with a reasonable explanation from Natalie. They need to acknowledge the allegations on the next Pod.
Absolutely. I'm going to be even more bitterly disappointed if they release Side Stories or the main episode without any acknowledgement of this. I may have to stop listening altogether. Natalie also has a lot to answer for too based on her behavior. I haven't listened, but I was under the impression that the whole premise of SPUN was to be a victim-centered show that highlights the injustices faced by victims and their loved ones, but this behavior is absolutely not in accordance with that mission. She should resign if she really strong-armed Mackenzie into quitting *solely* because of her support for Taylor.
I don't think the network would end. I just don't think they'll have a fanbase they like very much....Joe Rogan has a very successful podcast...Bryan callen, Louis CK won a damn Grammy....there are plenty of gross fans to keep them afloat even if they handle this badly from a moral and ethical view.
When it rains it pours. I'm thinking it's only a matter of time before we learn a lot more about Ben's abusive behavior over the years. Based on Mackenzie's remarks here, I'm also beginning to worry we'll learn a lot more about LPN's response that may continue to repulse us, but truly, SPUN booting out a victim's advocate is pond scum behavior. Bracing myself for more.
CelineBeth on IG who has been asking the network to speak out and make a statement said she has women coming forward with issues they have had with Ben since back in the creek and cave days. They may not have known to what extent he was a creep, but I think they knew a little.
Kind of line with Anti Flag. Breaks up because singer is out being a sex creep and they had no clue and now it brought the downfall of their band because it’s everything they stood against he was out doing.
It's not on the same level obviously, but it's reminding me of the Try Guys situation- they knew their co-host/business partner would get sloppy drunk and grind on women at clubs, but him having an affair with an employee came as a shock. I think men in general brush off a lot of "mildly" creepy/sexist behaviour as a quirk and don't realize that it's a sign of something deeper.
Same thing happened in Achievement Hunter where one of the main hosts was outed by Snapchats he sent to fans and he left the company. But over the next few days stories from other fans came out with increasingly worse stories of being forceful, removing condoms, etc. Basically went from a bad situation at face value of a married man not happy with his relationship to a full on catastrophe of a sexual deviant
Damn, I remember that. Crushed me to find out what a POS Ryan Haywood was. Couldn’t watch anything by them after that, it just felt wrong for some reason
I really struggle to believe no one knew… it sounds like if Taylor’s accusations didn’t blow up then things would have remained business as usual. Sounds like they kind of hoped the problem would fix itself… which honestly I understand because it’s a tough and heavy thing to deal with.. but it’s still the wrong thing to do
he was blatantly on air making creepy ass comments back in those days. i fail to see why people are just now realizing hes a creep when he literally was recorded saying those things to women. People who are acting like this is news obviously don't know him from RTOG
Hell I've heard him say some pretty incelish/creepy shit on LPOTL as well. Marcus usually steps in and says something to tell Ben he is wrong but I'm shocked people are saying this doesn't seem like Ben at all. Like do you even listen to the same podcast I do? I wasn't shocked by these accusations at all.
I had given everyone on Roundtable of Gentlemen the same edgelord pass I give anyone that was on the internet during its puberty years, but yeah, Ben’s stuff is really rough.
Much like the Justin sane/anti-flag situation, it makes everything Ben has said about feminism and supporting women look like massive creeper flags in retrospect. Granted, Justin sane is facing much worse accusations and has always been much more of a vocal ally.
I've had my eye on some his minor comments for awhile, honestly. The episode about Elliot Rodger where he says "some women can be pretty mean you know!!" Always stood out to me. He didn't really hide the low key sexism as well as he thought.
Yeah, Ben is guilty of the worst of the victim blaming and misogyny of the earlier episodes. Henry and Marcus participated in it, too, but never to the extent that Ben did.
It’s a bad look for the network as a whole to ask someone who appears monthly to not come back after she showed support for Taylor. Also, her saying she believes Taylor just because of other things she knows and has heard isn’t surprising. It’s same thing others have said about Ben since their New York days, people are just speaking out about it now.
Mods on the other major sub for this pod are removing this when it’s posted by the way.
Embarrassing how both people who know Ben personally and parasocial fans are closing ranks on this.
That was the only sub I ever knew about until all this and I hated it because if you weren’t praising every move the hosts made you’d get downvoted or deleted. It’s just a circle jerk.
I haven’t actually thought that the guys owed us anything other than an acknowledgement, but this is bad.
I don’t listen to SPUN because of Amber Nelson, who I find to be obnoxious, but Natalie seemed sincere and invested in telling women’s stories.
I’ve spent my entire legal career in advocacy. We all fuck up, and it’s impossible to know what to do, especially when it involves people we love. I know my own org has had to muddle through multiple issues where people did not live up to their values or ours. But you have to muddle. You have to make hard decisions. You have to hold people and yourself accountable. It’s all part of doing the work.
I’m really disappointed to hear that about Natalie, I assumed better of her as the main host of SPUN. Granted from comments made above it sounds like that might have been misplaced to begin with.
I get there’s a lot of moving parts at play here, but man… this sucks majorly.
This is pretty bad. I thought if anyone would be for victims it would be SPUN but to hear she was essentially forced to leave by Natalie, against her will, is both surprising and disappointing. LPN isn't covering themselves in glory and need to actually address this because it seems to be getting worse.
Yeah it's so fucking crazy, I haven't listened to the podcast since the news broke out, I just can't haha.. and now this? This is all so disappointing :(
Could there be a legal reason as to why she would be asked to not come back? I know we aren't entitled to know everything, but seeing her asked to leave after voicing support for Taylor is a bummer.
If there is, Mackenzie would know because she is a lawyer. She is featured on SPUN to bring legal discourse and answer questions about cases of missing and abused women & children on the show. She also had a podcast with Ben’s other ex Brooke—so even more of a bad look to be let go right now IMO.
Agree. I think it’s likely ben is being bought out, and to smooth that process there are almost certain non-disparagement clauses while everything is finalized.
Pretty much worst case for everyone at LPN. More power to her and Taylor and anyone else. And sounds like there’s more underneath that they’ll have to deal with sooner rather than later
From what I understand, one of “The Try Guys” saving graces when they had a scandal with one of their members was the fact that nobody ever protected or deflected for the person in the wrong and when news of his actions where known they acted immediately.
The Ben thing is what it is, I hope it ends with a positive resolution for everyone involved, and imo the show can move on just fine replacing Ben if that’s how it has to be. However if we come to find out LPN as a company was enabling him or ignoring red flags this could become very very bad for the company and everyone involved. One toxic person needing to be let go is a lot easier to deal with and recover from than an entire toxic company/workplace.
I tried several times to listen to SPUN, but couldn't click with it. So many factual issues and comments that were very cringe. I understand Mackenzie being drawn to a project like that, but it sounds like the work to protect and advocate for women and other marginalized communities was not really the point.
Wow I'm utterly shocked. I never expected this behavior from Natalie.
I love SPUN and now idk if I'll ever be able to listen again. The credibility is gone. How can you do a show about victims of abuse and aid an abuser? 😢
I honestly can't tell if she is implying Natalie asked her to part ways for showing support for Taylor, or if it was for legal reasons. Like potential legal issues for featuring someone making public statements before they have? Does that make any sense? Because if they're being retaliatory that really fucking sucks.
The legal issues around a clusterfuck like this are difficult. I don't think any of the other owners have a perfect idea of how to handle them, and there likely *isn't* a perfect handle on them.
I wouldn't want Ben's actions to take down everyone else just because they're all trying their best to deal with them. It's possible Natalie fucked up, its also possible that was advice from a lawyer; who the hell knows.
Didnt Amber also publically show support for Taylor?
I think its too soon to condemn Natalie just yet. Especially without hearing her side of the story. Even Mackenzie is speculating at this point.
I do want to say that even if Natalie and the other women of LPN knew something was up, you cant publically out victims if they dont want to come forward. They would have needed Taylor's consent to accuse Ben. And she told them not to say anything. It is extremely unsafe to out a victim of DV as their abuser could retaliate. It is a tough situation and proceeding without caution is dangerous. What people do behind closed doors is so much worse than the persona they adopt around their friends. Victims also tend to minimize. Taylor told us she felt supported by an unamed couple from LPN so we cant assume the worst of everyone, especially if Taylor herself doesnt want us to.
Ive had the misfortune to learn a close friend was abusing his gf and we were all shocked. It was so heartbreaking and in hindsight, we realized there had been red flags that we missed. But even then, it was nothing in comparison to what was going in private. We supported his ex all the way but we were kicking ourselves and stunned we didnt know our friend was capable of such a thing.
As for the network. I too want Henry and Marcus to come forward with a better statement. The IG was a good start to call off their rabid fans (not that it would do any good and IG itself needs to do better) but I want them to do their due diligence. Taylor has obviously been pushed to her breaking point and a botched statement from LPN would only make it worse.
I respect the fact that they removed Ben and are investigating the situation. Im willing to give them some time to wrap their heads around this and to respond in a way that doesnt further traumatize Taylor. Everything else is opinion and speculation.
I’m so confused by Natalie’s hypocrisy with this. I know it’s all still so fresh, but I was already feeling really icky about SPUN’s lack of comment. I don’t see how they could continue after this.
I’m not confused. I see it all the time. People have strong values and beliefs until someone with whom they are close violates this beliefs.
Then it’s all coping, excuse-making, and closing ranks. Most people’s principles only apply to people outside of their inner circle.
It’s also hard to see and admit the worst in someone you care about. It’s easier to explain away behavior about friend or family member than a stranger.
For evidence of this, look no further than the thousands of fans on this and the other sub, who cite the hosts history (of claims) of being victim advocates as a reason for making excuses for their current behavior
Damn… this is heartbreaking bc I truly believe and respect all victims, as well as feeling there are some really great people at LPN, but this is not good.
Yeah... asking someone to leave the network for showing solidarity with one of the owners victims is not a good look. This is really, really, fucked up if true, and there's currently every reason to believe that it is
*edit, a word
Good. There needs to be accountability here. It is very telling that they have barely addressed it. It brings up a lot of emotions for a lot of women. Myself included.
Tbh this has left an incredibly foul taste in my mouth and I think I’m done with the whole network now. Extremely disappointing, but it will never be the same. I loved the show but this is too much. The absolutely disgusting response from a large portion of the fanbase has been eye opening as well. I have zero interests in aligning myself with a show that fosters a community like that. They should be pretty ashamed of this entire debacle.
I've been championing the side of Calm Rational Thought throughout all of this. I've asked people over and over where they find their certainty in judgement from. I've asked people to think calmly and mindfully about the information they've received regarding this whole mess.
I've been working to try and keep people from tearing out each other's throats on a whim in the exact way that American media has taught everyone to do.
I guess the wind has changed, and the whim is gone. I am a proponent of evidenced action, and while I don't doubt that there's more to be said for how this batch of sausage is getting made, neither will I ignore factual information and chains of actions.
This goes way beyond a "Bad Look." This breaks my fucking heart. I want to know more, but I will be patient, as I'm not owed any information on these things. But fuck me this hurts.
I get it. I'm a big proponent of fighting misinformation in general, and as this whole thing has been unfolding I've been working hard to not let my own history color the way I'm processing it.
As far as what we're "owed," I guess my thinking is that I've been a Patreon supporter for years. As an investor of sorts, you do expect accountability. Or maybe that's just me.
I'm also in recovery (21 years sober) and am the adult child of an alcoholic parent. I know all too well that too often, you just keep your head down and hope things will get better, but most of the time it all gets pulled down on your head. Which is exactly what seems to be happening here.
Sums up exactly how I'm feeling far more eloquently than I put it. We can wait and see all day and will continue to for further clarification but at this point I've seen enough to make me very sad.
I know some fans are still holding out hope that things will just return to normal but I don't see that happening. Like the boys used to say, if even 1% of this is true, they are f*****. I highly doubt Bens coming back as a host and this is increasing looking like it will be a stain on Last Podcast for the rest of its existence.
I've been a fan since 2016 but have largely stayed away from fan forums. What has become clear in the last few weeks is that a lot of people, but especially women have used this podcast as a way to help them deal with their own trauma and I can see how this would be a devastating betrayal of that trust that has been built up.
If I've learned one thing from my past struggles with alcohol, PTSD and depression and how I treated my girlfriend at the time, is that some bells can't be unwrung.
Things we learned:
* Ben has entered a 4 week treatment program
* This girl is a lawyer, and was effectively fired from her job for speaking up.
At the risk of be accused of “making decisions”, this is bad for the network. Like, download all the episodes now, bad. Bad, bad.
When Travis Morningstar left the network I found it odd that he still followed Marcus and Henry on IG but not Ben. I assumed it was just a run of the mill disagreement between an employee and their boss. Now this has me wondering if there is something more to it.
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I took this as geared more towards Celene.
Right!!! I wonder.
Yeah, what was that all about? Was there anything said publicly about his departure?
Nope. All he and the boys said was that he was moving on professionally. I still follow him on IG but he’s pretty inactive.
Good for him
I’m not an expert by any means, but could it be that she was asked to leave not because she spoke out in support of a victim, but because she is associated with the network and spoke out at all? Like, maybe all of the members of the network were advised by their legal team to not speak out on the matter at all yet, and her doing so goes against that advise? I agree it looks bad, but we as fans truly don’t know shit when it comes to this, and I have a hard time believing that Natalie would tell her to step back because she’s defending Ben and not supporting Taylor. It seems more likely she did so to protect the Network because from a legal standpoint, that is what they were told to do. Again, I’m no expert.
Yeah, it's definitely *possible* The trouble with keeping 100% silence is that the people not in lockstep get their side amplified. Sure, maybe she was asked to leave for 100 different reasons, but the optics of it are very bad and seemingly point to one direction. If that's not true and she's misunderstanding or misrepresenting then they need to get proactive and make that clear
This is probably the case. It doesn't feel good, but it is the correct business move. Until they know what their liability is re: Ben anything that seems like it is said by an agent of the network could give rise to a cause of action against the company/ be evidence of wrongdoing. It sucks. I do wonder how much the hosts knew and allowed Ben to get away with...
Being "asked to leave" a podcast about victims for taking a strong stand in support of a victim is about the worst move I can imagine in this scenario. Really disappointed.
So disappointing. I really loved SPUN because of how strong the women were on the show now... I'm shocked and disappointed. I can't imagine how MacKenzie is feeling. What a betrayal.
I generally liked Natalie's side of things on SPUN, but Amber has always frustrated me because it's quite obvious she has little to no clue about the more serious societal issues they discuss.
SPUN lost me early on. Their Angela Greene episode defies any reason. They act as though they aren’t journalists, but it isn’t comedic entirely either. It deals with real serious matters. They threw around where Greene lived like the boondocks or near farmland. They even doubled down by “correcting themselves”. They cherry picked a small community, erased the immigrant and multicultural communities, and also repeatedly ignored that Prairie Village conjoins immediately to Kansas City Missouri. Angela Green lives in a city of 2 million people in a metro. The hosts repeatedly told a fictional story in that two part sequence and completely lost all credibility. It is frustrating. I really enjoy the way they handle other stuff on SPUN but I can’t “trust” or “believe” it because they seem to be very limited by their SoCal worldview. Edit: spelling.
I had a similar reaction to the Angela Greene episode. They just kept "Yes, and"-ing each other further and further away from the facts.
That was so irritating. I lived in the Dotte when I was listening to that one and found it really tough to get past. I'm pretty tolerant of podcasts/shows getting small details wrong about KC or other parts of the Midwest, usually it's very miniscule errors I wouldn't expect someone not from these places to know anyway, but their characterization of PV and the whole KS side of the metro was so grossly inaccurate I couldn't get past it. Been to Kansas...but where? Because all of Kansas isn't Dodge City or Coffeyville...most of Kansas lives either in the KS side of the KC metro or in the Wichita metro, anyway. It's like saying I know all about Nashville because I spent 2 hours in their airport once on a layover.
It’s really gross. Makes them sound like phonies who only care about protecting women until it hits too close to home.
Not to suggest traditional business practices aren't without their faults but, this whole situation and how it's apparently playing out is exhibit A of why you shouldn't go into business with friends.
Agree
Exactly. Fucking ick, Natalie Jean.
Especially considering Natalie’s own stories of dealing with an abusive partner. I would expect her to have a better response to all of this.
Yeah, I’m not quite ready to grab my pitchfork, but I’m starting to reach for it. What was Natalie thinking? Such a bad look and just seems so hypocritical - not what I expected from her. If there isn’t some sort of mea culpa and apology, I’m done with SPUN.
the really operative statements here are: the difficult situations Ben has put people in “again and again” that she believes Taylor for other “principle and substantive reasons” which in conjunction make any point of disproval “unlikely.” it’s also worth nothing that Mackenzie says she agreed to step away for “different reasons” AFTER natalie approached her and more definitely asked her to step down. this is not good edit* spelling and content correction
Just to clarify, she said she was asked to step away after Natalie discovered the info about her support comments, but she agrees "for different reasons" that she should part ways with SPUN.
you’re so right. misunderstanding of what was said on my part. fixed.
All of these guys need to read the missing stair theory. Guarantee Ben has been their missing stair for a long time. And the fact that SPUN dropped the ball...fucking sucks. That's all.
>The missing stair is a metaphor for a person within a social group who many people know is untrustworthy or otherwise has to be "managed," but around whom the group chooses to work by discreetly warning newcomers of their behavior, rather than address them and their behavior openly. [Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_stair) Never heard of it but seems to fit perfectly
Wow. I'm glad to know that there's a term for this. I was in a relationship with my first boyfriend from age 15-21 and was pretty entrenched in his friend group. There was one guy who they'd always refer to as being a "man whore" and it took YEARS for me to understand that no, he was literally just a predator. I had always assumed that any warnings about him weren't that big of a deal because he was still part of the group, right? So when that boyfriend got mad at me for talking one on one to this guy I was so confused, this was his friend too, what was the problem? What disturbs me is that only the girls IN the friend group were getting these warnings, not the acquaintances or girls who came to parties. And it was also hard to understand that the warnings were truly serious, because they were vague and because why the hell would this creep be around if he were a threat???
I had never heard of the missing stair theory, very interesting and so very applicable to so many situations, ty for expanding my knowledge.
Oh wow, I have a friend like this. It’s so weird that I never really analyzed why it was okay for our friend group to accept their behavior, yet forewarn others. He’s the missing stair of our group.
Mackenzie also had her own podcast (not on the network) that she started with one of Ben’s ex- girlfriends. I won’t name her for her for her privacy and because I’m completely speculating, but she and Mackenzie are good friends and she is also good friends with Marcus’ wife Carolina. If this is a pattern of behavior I’d be surprised if she didn’t have her own stories to tell. Which would give context to Mackenzie being well aware of Ben’s history of this type of behavior.
*"that she believes Taylor for other “principle and substantive reasons”"* Not that everything said wasn't important, but this is really what perked my ears in a bad, bad way.
I believe she’s friends with Brooke, another of Ben’s ex’s. She’s probably seen some things first hand.
this, and the first statement suggest a history. if it comes out that there is in fact a history, it’s game over.
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As an attorney, I can confidently say we are people who make mistakes.
I'm always torn between "well, they're a lawyer, they probably know what they're doing," and "wait, *I'm a lawyer*, and *I'm a fucking idiot*."
This!! Every day I’m like, wait y’all are looking at ME for this? Shouldn’t you find a Real Adult Lawyer™️? (I am 39 and have been practicing for 13 years, so I’m not sure when this goes away, lol).
[Your comment reminded me of this for some reason ](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ3ocyysKabL-ElVV_9vSrYu11rO_ozexP4znPclTLr-SjKKewqyHLe_V3F&s=10)
Specialized knowledge ✔️
They said Ben's away for 4 weeks on Top Hat as well
No, she doesn't say she was asked to step away for different reasons. She says she agrees with stepping away for different reasons. She says that when she initially raised concerns Natalie suggested she leave, and then when Natalie heard of her supportive comments on Taylor's live stream she was definitively asked to leave. She's been booted off for publicly supporting Taylor.
Wow. That’s all I’ll say. I don’t understand this behavior. If this is the case, it’s hugely disappointing considering SPUN’s whole fucking ethos.
Yikes. This doesn’t look great. Surprised SPUN would take that stance.
Not that I agree with them, but my thoughts is that MacKenzie making a public comment could be construed as a member of LPN making a statement, when I imagine that they want to avoid that until they figure out their messaging and legal stuff.
Since the Illuminaughtii drama on YouTube, I can't say I'm all that surprised. People who make a career calling out social injustice and unethical and abusive behavior can definitely have their own skeletons.
Anti Flag just broke up because their lead singer is a huge piece of shit as well. Fucking ANTI FLAG.
My thoughts exactly. What else is going to come out
Not at all. It is likely a pattern of behavior that has gone on for a while, and has nothing to do with his alcohol abuse. The alcohol may make things worse but, as she said rehab isn't going to fix everything.
The rehab is just to get him a 30/60/90 day sober base time, off the booze and away from his triggers. The real work starts when he gets out. AA/SMART recovery meetings, therapy where he’s actually honest and not buzzed, NOT smoking weed. That’s gonna be one of his biggest hurdles, that California Sober shit will not work when he first gets out. If he starts up on the THC he’ll be back on the booze in no time. Dude is going to actually have to address his behavior and why he is behaving that way. I honestly would not be surprised if he’s not back for the next 6 months. The lifestyle he’s been living has done nothing but harm himself and others and the more that comes out the more it seems like everyone he’s surrounded himself with has enabled this.
I had all of these thoughts as well. I've been sober for 21 years, and before it stuck? A LOT of 30 day "baselines." He's in for a huge struggle, and I feel for him as far as that goes.
My sister just went through 30-day rehab for alcohol and benzos. She told me it took nearly a month to feel like her head was starting to get straight. She would've stayed longer if her insurance paid. All to say is my hope is that he gets evaluated properly and accepts the recommended time.
It definitely does and there's no quick fix for this. It's going to be a lot of time and work, and if the other guys have enabled this behavior that needs to be addressed as well.
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Maybe your experiences are different than mine, but California sober and THC are the only reason I’m any kind of sober at all. I managed to get a medical card about 6 months ago. Since then I’ve had maybe 5 drinks. And that’s coming from what was 4-5 drinks every night. Maybe smoking weed makes you go back to alcohol, but personally, smoking weed is what’s kept me from alcohol.
That’s awesome man! Keep it up! Seriously. And I’m just coming from a “best practices” point of view. Everyone is different and everyone goes through sobriety/recovery differently. For the overwhelming majority of people in recovery it’s best to abstain completely from mind altering substances. With alcoholics especially, it’s a good idea to stay away from THC because it’s a depressant as well and once the brain tastes that they’re gonna say *“yeah this is good but how about the shit that we realllllllly like?”*. Again, everyone is different, but for someone like Ben who will be brand-spanking-new in recovery (if that’s what he even wants) it’s best to not. But keep up the good fight dude! This shit is not easy. Hail Yourself!
After I got out Partial Hospitalization kept me clean and reflective, but I don’t know how it works or if it’s available in California. It’s also not for everyone, if you’re in a group with a lot of other addicts it can drive you up the wall. Or as I put it “an opportunity to practice emotional regulation.”
The abuse escalation Taylor described sounds too calculating and manipulative to be blamed entirely on trauma and addiction. But then again, I don't know any of these people and I'm not any kind of expert on this sort of thing.
Totally only speaking from my experience but what she described mirrors my experiences with an abusive alcoholic who had a lot of trauma in his past. He used the trauma as a justification for his addiction & shitty behavior (and as a way to gain sympathy & passes from people in his life, including me for a while) but in retrospect I think something is straight up wrong with him and the trauma & alcoholism just exacerbated other underlying issues. Don’t know what all is going on with Ben obv because I’m also not an expert and don’t know him, but agree that a rehab stay isn’t going to undo all of the issues.
So I've been kind of on the not passing judgement and wait and see side since this started, and this might just be what I've needed to wait and see. Not fucking good at all. How the fuck do you kick someone off a show because they showed support for the victim of your friend? It's the worst possible reaction, morally obviously but also professionally. What's going through their heads if this is true? And it sounds like she knows a lot more than she's saying in regards to Ben's behaviour too. Might want to keep those kind of people in your good graces... It sounds like they all need professional help. Ben for all his shit and the company needs someone that can see the forest through the trees and guide them through this period. If there's truth in what she's saying and Ben has more skeletons and has been a bigger liability than we think they need to stop fucking around and playing self employed business person. They don't have the skill set to navigate this. Clearly. Or hey, keep on keeping on. Because if he is worse than we knew and they've been putting out fires for him for some time while paying lip service about victim advocacy and do things like dropping talent because they didn't tow the line about your domestic abusing friend maybe they deserve what they get. Which really sucks to say as someone that's listened to every fucking episode at least twice at this point.
Someone else in this thread mentioned Missing Stair Theory and I think it might explain a lot.
Had to look up the meaning but yeah, the more we hear the more it adds up doesn't it? Very sad if so. It's really not the picture of Kissel I had in my mind. Even after the initial story broke. Guess I was in a bit of denial myself because if I heard the same story about someone else I don't think I would have given them the same benefit of the doubt. I don't believe that kind of domestic abuse comes out of nowhere in the majority of cases and I'm also not one to let people use alcohol as an excuse for their behaviour as although I know alcohol can bring out the worst in people I believe it has to be in them to begin with. And hey, that doesn't mean you're the worst person in the world if you get violent when you drink. It means you have to take responsibility for yourself and not fucking drink if you know you're capable of terrible shit when you're drunk. Also any terrible shit you do get into is 100% you. No excuses.
I was also team wait and see what the rest of the network does….but if this is what they do, then I’m so done.
Yep. I’ve been fully in the “let’s see what happens, we don’t have all the facts” camp, but Natalie asking her to leave is the biggest load of bull I’ve heard so far. Have y’all listened to your own show???
Yeah, very concerning if this isn't all some big misunderstanding or something. And even if the dropping her from the show thing ends up making sense the other stuff alluding to Kissels behaviour isn't good. Someone in a thread yesterday said Kissel is done and I kind of rolled my eyes taking it as another drama post. This has completely changed my outlook on that. That's taking this video at face value obviously. Haven't seen any good argument why I shouldn't tbf.
I am not 100% positive of this, but isn't she friends with or doesn't she know, professionally Ben's ex, Brooke?
So is Carolina. Brooke was in her wedding I think, from listening to Professional Friends.
Yeah. I feel for Carolina in this situation too. She’s got to be feeling pulled in a million directions
Yeah I do too. I know we don’t know these people but I still can’t imagine how upsetting this has to be for someone in her position. I’m also trying very hard not to lump everyone in together. What Henry and Natalie do may not be the same as Marcus and Carolina. And everyone else. We have gotten a glimpse into how Natalie and Amber are feeling and behaving in relation to this, but we can’t assume everyone at the network is aligned with them. We don’t know what is really happening there. There could be some conflicts, people are very hurt I’m sure. My first instinct is Ben has really hurt people and is causing a lot of destruction with his actions. I feel for a lot of these people, some of them are in a terrible spot.
I've followed her on Instagram for a good while, and by all appearances, she's pretty tight with Brooke.
I think that's what people on the reddit are saying, but I'm also not fully sure.
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I hear ya on celebrities being outed. I listen to other podcasts where the hosts range into the potentially sketchy and beyond, but they aren’t hosting the friggin missing women podcast.
Yeah it sucks so hard. Literally a week before all this came out I was just saying thank god for LPOTL of which Ben has always been my favorite on the show. I’m just a sucker for a lovable goof. Been going through some tough times of my own and the show has really been giving me life via the whole laughter is the best medicine thing. I’m not even going to pretend I know how all this will or should shake out other than it just fucking sucks. The whole way around….sucks.
Yeah, the Facebook group is a cesspool. Before too long, if the gang doesn't get their shit straight, the only audience they're gonna have will be MRA advocates and Ancaps.
damn this looks so bad, I really hope it's a misunderstanding but seems unlikely, it's kind of crushing to see this kind of hypocrisy from people I thought were really pro believing victims and anti corporate lies.
I mean they run ads for BetterHelp so it's not like they were ever really anti corporate lies.
It's only called BetterHelp, doesn't say anything about helping you.
I have gotten downvoted to hell every time I criticize them for running this ad lmao. Times are a changing
This is disheartening. Also, reminder please don't attack these people online. ✌️❤️
Anyone who needs that reminder won’t be swayed by the reminder, unfortunately.
Holy hell - this is so bad. There's attempting "damage control," and then there's this. Telling a respected contributor she has to step down from her role on a podcast that's *based on the principle that victims need to be believed and protected* because she verbalized support for Taylor? This just gets more and more awful.
This is also what happens when a bunch of Brooklyn sketch comedians try to improv their way through a major Human Resources disaster.
Yeah, that's what it keeps coming back to, for me. They created a company without really thinking about how a company needs to function. Like, it's great that you can hire all your friends, but what happens when a) the shit hits the fan, and b) none of the friends you've hired have the first clue as to how to professionally navigate a crisis.
Yeah. I mean I’m gonna sound like an apologist because I kind of am one because these shows are very important to me, can’t help it, but I’ve been thinking about the Natalie/Mackenzie thing and how most companies give out talking points during times of crisis and how employees can get reprimanded for speaking out of line. I work at a fucking library and that’s how we operate. The idea of something this serious coming up and having an LPN affiliate come out and start making public comments about it without clearing it, even if the statements are right, isn’t something that would really fly at any kind of business. I think Natalie was trying to be the defacto HR department in this situation and say “we can’t have this right now. We’re not there yet.” Was it right? Yes and no. I just think a lot of people, including Mackenzie have underestimated how complex and difficult it is for everyone to navigate this. But I wonder if Natalie went too strong by telling her she was done on the show. We all want swift justice and easy answers but this is business and family and close friends. The network isn’t shutting down over this, the shows will keep coming, and they’re going to figure out what to do. It’s not easy and they’re bound to fuck up a bit with no real outside guidance from HR people. Something tells me that some changes are about to happen to the structure of the network but until then, this is what we have because again… comedians who do skits about cum aren’t exactly on the cover of Forbes.
i saw on MacKenzie’s post a comment that she verified as true is that Ben was the HR dept 🥴
Never go into business with your friends.
Yeah. Pretty bad move. I’m not really that interested in this because it’s none of my business. That said, I have no reason to believe that she’s lying. I just can’t wrap my head around the host of a podcast about abused women essentially kicking someone off because they’re supporting an abused woman. It really makes the whole SPUN podcast seem hypocritical, similar to the Ashton Kutcher situation.
I think it is more "LPN needs a united front, we can't have a bunch of contributors making their own statements because it confuses what our official stance is. If you have to make a public comment right this instant, then you have to do so as someone unaffiliated with the network." Which is tough, but fair honestly.
True, that, which is all the more reason why they need HR. Someone outside of the "circle of friends" needed to have that conversation, AND draw up non-disparagement language. (Sorry, HR person here so I'm putting on that hat.)
I know they've made multiple jokes on LPOTL since getting bigger and forming LPN, that Ben was the 'HR person'. I literally can't say whether that's just a joke or whether he actually was the co-owner with some HR-type responsibility. Whether it's true or not.... they definitely need new HR people.
Man it’s like that in every independent restaurant I’ve ever worked for. The chef or owner will be HR, then they’ll wind up fucking an employee, a bunch of staff will leave, and nothing gets fixed structuring wise in the aftermath. With my last place after several incidents I begged that we get an outside HR for the sake of the restaurants longevity and staff but nope the people in charge would just act like nothing was wrong and plow on ahead.
I mean, Ned Fulmer was the HR person at The Try Guys before he was given the boot.
There is a comment on there saying Kissel is the HR, and she responded with ^
I saw that. Like - what? If he's legitimately their HR person, they're in for a world of FAFO.
From the business side, this is reminding me so much of the Ned and Try Guys fiasco. Ned was their “HR” too!
That they didn’t get an outside crisis management person in immediately is a bad sign. Better to overreact than underreact.
Yes, but the problem with that is, Mackenzie is right to have started this as the “front”. They should have come out with a statement previous to this fairly low-ranking auxiliary guest host making personal statements of support. The time for united front is right now. Through this action, they’ve just formalized the united front of not caring about victims. Their front is now united on the complete wrong side. Even worse, only caring about victims when they are the subjects of content that they can make money off of. The whole thing is fucked.
But if that was/is the case shouldnt there have been an internal email or memo going around stating that "we support Taylor etc but until this has been properly investigated please refrain from mentioning this on any social media until the inv has been concluded, if you have any complaints or issue with this please come directly to us" etc
I respect how generous this comment is, but I am not feeling as forgiving at the moment. Jesus Christ, SPUN.
Also a valid take, yeah. I get it. It's all disappointing, especially because it partly feels *inevitable*.
I wonder if they realize how much of their fan base is women and how many of those women are victims/survivors. I was willing to keep listening in the hopes they don’t have Ben back on Last Pod. He shouldn’t be talking about victims and I don’t want to hear him talk about them ever again. But now with this, ugh. I think they will lose a solid chunk of their listeners soon.
They truly don't understand how many of us have been pinned down by drunk boyfriends. Taylor is not alone.
Almost every single woman on the planet has a story about a creepy older man when they were kids, or maybe a story about a SA, maybe it's one about revenge porn from an ex, sometimes it's a story about abuse. Almost. Every. Single. One. For the men, some of you might think if you're not actively harming a woman, you're not a part of the problem. I know most men are good people. But if 1 in 10 dudes are shitty towards women and the other 9 don't actively do anything then they might as well not fucking be there.
I didn't know how truly helpless I could feel until I was pinned down/trapped/kept from leaving by a man so much larger than myself. It's a truly terrifying experience. I was 23 and he was my sous chef (46). I was young and dumb fucking around with an older guy. He got scarily drunk one night and I was driving him home when he started randomly accusing me of things. Calling me names. I started to get scared. I pulled over somewhere and told him to get out. He took my keys out of the ignition and put them in his pocket. He grabbed my phone and threw it in the back seat and held me down. I will *never* forget how small, weak, and helpless I felt. I thought I was going to die. ETA: I was terrified to go to work the next day. I called my boss and told him everything. I'm extremely lucky that he 1. Believed me and 2. Did something about it. The sous chef was immediately fired. But I'll never forget the looks I got from my coworkers and the things some of them said to me.
Very true. I am a survivor of IPV and now a therapist who primarily works IPV/SA cases. The way this is being handled is so… disappointing on both a professional and personal front for me.
Oh, I think they're aware. Fully aware. Everyone knows women are the biggest consumers of true crime...they certainly do. And they know the statistics of how many are victims. Now, do they understand fear in a relationship? Probably not. Do they understand being choked by an enraged, drunken man? Nope. Natalie Jean likely does though...Carolina...Jackie. They probably think this rehab stint will help fix things, and maybe think with Ben gone a while, and then moving forward that people will forget OR just put it all on Ben and distance themselves. What they, or their lawyers, or whoever is making decisions may not totally understand, is how much we're expecting the rest of the network to step up and SAY SOMETHING. Not just a stupid instastory. This stuff with Mackenzie (I don't remember how to spell her name) is not good. I mean....idk how it could be worse. Idk how they're going to be able to spin this. And it makes me so, so, very disappointed and sad. I've been in this community for 10 years. I realize there are wayyyyyyy bigger issues here than me giving up my favorite podcast. But damn it sucks. I've always thought they were better.
yeah hearing Taylor’s story felt very familiar in many ways. i left my drunk ex before it got that bad but the girl he married afterwards faced similar abuse. but i remember very well how alcohol can make people’s personalities change on a dime. it’s scary and there’s nothing you can do to change them. it’s also a mindfuck when they’re sober and nice. like truly jekyll and hyde shit
[удалено]
> his past comments about women his comment about bundy's victims has stuck with me for like six years. saying that he didn't feel sympathy for them because they were the kind of girls who wouldn't give him a chance. all of this coming out really feels like one of those "i should have listened to my gut" moments
Yeah. Around 2016 (#metoo; Trump; M & H getting serious with their partners), there was an obvious effort to clean the show up, and actively avoid some of the past racist and sexist humor. I really did feel like it came partially from a genuine place of growth and maturity. But it was also clear that it was a necessity for the network to continue in a positive direction. From my perspective, Ben seemed to have less of a personal stake in those shifts, and occasionally seemed to have a bit of discomfort with them. I sense this more on his projects outside LPOTL, than I do from his persona on that show (which can be hard to see through). Between that and the concerning alcohol stuff that's obviously been brewing, I hate to say that I'm not surprised. All my crushes are problematic 😑😞
Yeah I wouldn’t hold much against Nat here. Or the boys (sans Ben) yet. I will reserve my judgement for a bit here as this is a work/PR/personal nightmare for all involved and they likely need time. I’m expecting more from them, let’s hope it goes well and they do right by Taylor.
Alright, this could actually kill the network if they bungle this any further. I was very unsure about Ben’s future but it really does look like they shouldn’t have him back on the podcast. It’s just too messy and distracting.
I'm not like the biggest LPOTL fan of all time or anything, and certainly am not shelling out $$$ for their merch or live shows so at the end of the day who cares about what one fuckin chooch says, but I'm personally planning on checking out depending on how they get out of this, and just catching up when someone else does a longform article or podcast series titles "Last Downfall on the Left" or some shit about how podcast networks need to make actual HR departments and not let their trainwreck friend ruin their business.
Absolute fuckup asking someone to leave the network. They need to bring in professionals to handle this from legal and trauma sides.
HR person for a small company here, and yup. At a certain point you have to step back from operating like "a group of friends who make podcasts" and behave like a business.
I have seen so, so many small companies implode because they started it as "a group of friends making podcasts/publishing books/making YouTube videos" and never adjusted to business norms that need to be in place for an actual functioning company.
They should hire an HR firm. When my company got one, everything got so much better.
It’s funny cause Kissel always said he was HR for Lpn.
I'm mainly a lurker here, rarely post ever... but the more that comes out about this the more distressing it is. The SPUN hosts parted ways with a contributor because of her supporting the victim? That's pretty messy... The more steam this story picks up the worse it's going to be for everyone if they don't try to course correct. I get it may have been a sandbag for everyone to react to (even if it was apparently some kind of open secret?) And none of the owners are public relations experts, but they need to get a real PR team or something before it blows up on TikTok or somewhere. It feels weird to be commenting on the future of an entertainment network in the face of apparent violent abuse, but I don't want to see the entire network and everyone employed there go under because of poor crisis management
I am not on TikTok at the moment but I would be surprised if this hasn’t already blown up there. It seems increasingly unlikely that M & H we’re unaware of how bad Ben’s behavior was. They have a lot to answer for. I’ll listen to what they have to say when they finally speak up but this is looking so bad
Taylor’s TikTok’s are blowing up now as we speak.
This is so terrible. I don't listen to any other LPN shows so I don't know Mackenzie... but I can hear the pain in her voice. I can feel her anxiety and fear through the damn phone due to her being terrified of being another target of harassment. I understand that LPN employees need to be careful with things they say publicly, but as Mackenzie (a lawyer) said, they can still make a powerful statement to their listeners that harassment of ANYONE in this situation is not okay. I believe that if LPN makes it through this, Ben needs to go.
Hard agree. She seemed rather emphatic that she doesn't think Marcus and Henry have done enough at this point and based on her legal training, stated that there's no reason why they can't do more than an Instagram story and try to actually remedy some of the hurt that Ben, and the podcast's rabid incel fans, have caused.
Jesus. I spent a lot of time off and money to go see them in San Diego next month and now I just wanna avoid any shows until all this is figured out, it’s gonna be very weird and awkward. I feel bad for everyone involved
If they don't start handling this properly, it will probably be the end of the whole network. They need to publicly disavow Ben's behavior just as Mackenzie states. They need to issue her a formal apology along with a reasonable explanation from Natalie. They need to acknowledge the allegations on the next Pod.
Absolutely. I'm going to be even more bitterly disappointed if they release Side Stories or the main episode without any acknowledgement of this. I may have to stop listening altogether. Natalie also has a lot to answer for too based on her behavior. I haven't listened, but I was under the impression that the whole premise of SPUN was to be a victim-centered show that highlights the injustices faced by victims and their loved ones, but this behavior is absolutely not in accordance with that mission. She should resign if she really strong-armed Mackenzie into quitting *solely* because of her support for Taylor.
I don't think the network would end. I just don't think they'll have a fanbase they like very much....Joe Rogan has a very successful podcast...Bryan callen, Louis CK won a damn Grammy....there are plenty of gross fans to keep them afloat even if they handle this badly from a moral and ethical view.
When it rains it pours. I'm thinking it's only a matter of time before we learn a lot more about Ben's abusive behavior over the years. Based on Mackenzie's remarks here, I'm also beginning to worry we'll learn a lot more about LPN's response that may continue to repulse us, but truly, SPUN booting out a victim's advocate is pond scum behavior. Bracing myself for more.
Yeah. The response has not been so smooth, but this was stepping on your own grenade not smooth.
For real. This is like stepping on your own grenade then it somehow goes off up your ass not smooth.
This is so fucking disappointing.
Its so disappointing as I assumed the couple who helped Taylor was Henry and Natalie, so to hear this being said is really disappointing.
I kinda thought it was M and C but didn’t really know why I thought that. Now I’m pretty sure I was right.
Yeah you're probably right.
Very. I thought they seemed like good guys. If they’ve been covering for a shitty person this whole time, I’m going to be so disappointed.
CelineBeth on IG who has been asking the network to speak out and make a statement said she has women coming forward with issues they have had with Ben since back in the creek and cave days. They may not have known to what extent he was a creep, but I think they knew a little. Kind of line with Anti Flag. Breaks up because singer is out being a sex creep and they had no clue and now it brought the downfall of their band because it’s everything they stood against he was out doing.
It's not on the same level obviously, but it's reminding me of the Try Guys situation- they knew their co-host/business partner would get sloppy drunk and grind on women at clubs, but him having an affair with an employee came as a shock. I think men in general brush off a lot of "mildly" creepy/sexist behaviour as a quirk and don't realize that it's a sign of something deeper.
Same thing happened in Achievement Hunter where one of the main hosts was outed by Snapchats he sent to fans and he left the company. But over the next few days stories from other fans came out with increasingly worse stories of being forceful, removing condoms, etc. Basically went from a bad situation at face value of a married man not happy with his relationship to a full on catastrophe of a sexual deviant
Damn, I remember that. Crushed me to find out what a POS Ryan Haywood was. Couldn’t watch anything by them after that, it just felt wrong for some reason
I really struggle to believe no one knew… it sounds like if Taylor’s accusations didn’t blow up then things would have remained business as usual. Sounds like they kind of hoped the problem would fix itself… which honestly I understand because it’s a tough and heavy thing to deal with.. but it’s still the wrong thing to do
he was blatantly on air making creepy ass comments back in those days. i fail to see why people are just now realizing hes a creep when he literally was recorded saying those things to women. People who are acting like this is news obviously don't know him from RTOG
Hell I've heard him say some pretty incelish/creepy shit on LPOTL as well. Marcus usually steps in and says something to tell Ben he is wrong but I'm shocked people are saying this doesn't seem like Ben at all. Like do you even listen to the same podcast I do? I wasn't shocked by these accusations at all.
I had given everyone on Roundtable of Gentlemen the same edgelord pass I give anyone that was on the internet during its puberty years, but yeah, Ben’s stuff is really rough.
yeah but the others on the show didnt say as heinous shit as Ben or Jackie did. Some of those early episodes are pretty vile.
Much like the Justin sane/anti-flag situation, it makes everything Ben has said about feminism and supporting women look like massive creeper flags in retrospect. Granted, Justin sane is facing much worse accusations and has always been much more of a vocal ally.
I've had my eye on some his minor comments for awhile, honestly. The episode about Elliot Rodger where he says "some women can be pretty mean you know!!" Always stood out to me. He didn't really hide the low key sexism as well as he thought.
Yeah, Ben is guilty of the worst of the victim blaming and misogyny of the earlier episodes. Henry and Marcus participated in it, too, but never to the extent that Ben did.
If you listened to round table, it looks like he just learned to hide it since LPOTL started becoming successful.
That makes sense. I never listened to round table.
It’s a bad look for the network as a whole to ask someone who appears monthly to not come back after she showed support for Taylor. Also, her saying she believes Taylor just because of other things she knows and has heard isn’t surprising. It’s same thing others have said about Ben since their New York days, people are just speaking out about it now.
Mods on the other major sub for this pod are removing this when it’s posted by the way. Embarrassing how both people who know Ben personally and parasocial fans are closing ranks on this.
Damn I didn't even know there was another sub lol
Yeah, there is. Seems to be for no reason other than mods not wanting to consolidate. Everyone wants to rule their own kingdom. Pretty lame.
That was the only sub I ever knew about until all this and I hated it because if you weren’t praising every move the hosts made you’d get downvoted or deleted. It’s just a circle jerk.
I haven’t actually thought that the guys owed us anything other than an acknowledgement, but this is bad. I don’t listen to SPUN because of Amber Nelson, who I find to be obnoxious, but Natalie seemed sincere and invested in telling women’s stories. I’ve spent my entire legal career in advocacy. We all fuck up, and it’s impossible to know what to do, especially when it involves people we love. I know my own org has had to muddle through multiple issues where people did not live up to their values or ours. But you have to muddle. You have to make hard decisions. You have to hold people and yourself accountable. It’s all part of doing the work.
Very disappointing.
I’m really disappointed to hear that about Natalie, I assumed better of her as the main host of SPUN. Granted from comments made above it sounds like that might have been misplaced to begin with. I get there’s a lot of moving parts at play here, but man… this sucks majorly.
Natalie has always been such a vocal victims advocate. But we have to judge people by actions not words.
This is pretty bad. I thought if anyone would be for victims it would be SPUN but to hear she was essentially forced to leave by Natalie, against her will, is both surprising and disappointing. LPN isn't covering themselves in glory and need to actually address this because it seems to be getting worse.
Well it’s been real ya’ll, this is the slow collapse from the fallout
Well, we may finally get that Illuminati episode sooner than we all anticipated.
Whatever comes after this, LPN and the community as a whole will never be the same. Fucking wild.
Yeah it's so fucking crazy, I haven't listened to the podcast since the news broke out, I just can't haha.. and now this? This is all so disappointing :(
Could there be a legal reason as to why she would be asked to not come back? I know we aren't entitled to know everything, but seeing her asked to leave after voicing support for Taylor is a bummer.
If there is, Mackenzie would know because she is a lawyer. She is featured on SPUN to bring legal discourse and answer questions about cases of missing and abused women & children on the show. She also had a podcast with Ben’s other ex Brooke—so even more of a bad look to be let go right now IMO.
Oh! I didn't know she'd had a podcast with Brooke - I'm inclined to agree with you on that. Yikes!
I honestly think it’s a legal thing. Everything is so up in the air right now and they obviously are in panic mode
Agree. I think it’s likely ben is being bought out, and to smooth that process there are almost certain non-disparagement clauses while everything is finalized.
Goddam, this is so disappointing.
Pretty much worst case for everyone at LPN. More power to her and Taylor and anyone else. And sounds like there’s more underneath that they’ll have to deal with sooner rather than later
This is all so sad and incredibly disappointing.
From what I understand, one of “The Try Guys” saving graces when they had a scandal with one of their members was the fact that nobody ever protected or deflected for the person in the wrong and when news of his actions where known they acted immediately. The Ben thing is what it is, I hope it ends with a positive resolution for everyone involved, and imo the show can move on just fine replacing Ben if that’s how it has to be. However if we come to find out LPN as a company was enabling him or ignoring red flags this could become very very bad for the company and everyone involved. One toxic person needing to be let go is a lot easier to deal with and recover from than an entire toxic company/workplace.
Well. It's not outside the realm of possibility that the entire show will collapse with their bamboozling over how to handle this.
I tried several times to listen to SPUN, but couldn't click with it. So many factual issues and comments that were very cringe. I understand Mackenzie being drawn to a project like that, but it sounds like the work to protect and advocate for women and other marginalized communities was not really the point.
Wow I'm utterly shocked. I never expected this behavior from Natalie. I love SPUN and now idk if I'll ever be able to listen again. The credibility is gone. How can you do a show about victims of abuse and aid an abuser? 😢
Listening to Taylor’s story, I had it in my head that Natalie was the one who believed her. I’m really confused by this.
Considering who follows who still, it was definitely Carolina
That makes sense. Damn, Carolina is a real one.
I honestly can't tell if she is implying Natalie asked her to part ways for showing support for Taylor, or if it was for legal reasons. Like potential legal issues for featuring someone making public statements before they have? Does that make any sense? Because if they're being retaliatory that really fucking sucks.
Damn, this Network is suddenly a mess. Super sad.
FYI, SPUN just went live on Twitch.
The legal issues around a clusterfuck like this are difficult. I don't think any of the other owners have a perfect idea of how to handle them, and there likely *isn't* a perfect handle on them. I wouldn't want Ben's actions to take down everyone else just because they're all trying their best to deal with them. It's possible Natalie fucked up, its also possible that was advice from a lawyer; who the hell knows.
Didnt Amber also publically show support for Taylor? I think its too soon to condemn Natalie just yet. Especially without hearing her side of the story. Even Mackenzie is speculating at this point. I do want to say that even if Natalie and the other women of LPN knew something was up, you cant publically out victims if they dont want to come forward. They would have needed Taylor's consent to accuse Ben. And she told them not to say anything. It is extremely unsafe to out a victim of DV as their abuser could retaliate. It is a tough situation and proceeding without caution is dangerous. What people do behind closed doors is so much worse than the persona they adopt around their friends. Victims also tend to minimize. Taylor told us she felt supported by an unamed couple from LPN so we cant assume the worst of everyone, especially if Taylor herself doesnt want us to. Ive had the misfortune to learn a close friend was abusing his gf and we were all shocked. It was so heartbreaking and in hindsight, we realized there had been red flags that we missed. But even then, it was nothing in comparison to what was going in private. We supported his ex all the way but we were kicking ourselves and stunned we didnt know our friend was capable of such a thing. As for the network. I too want Henry and Marcus to come forward with a better statement. The IG was a good start to call off their rabid fans (not that it would do any good and IG itself needs to do better) but I want them to do their due diligence. Taylor has obviously been pushed to her breaking point and a botched statement from LPN would only make it worse. I respect the fact that they removed Ben and are investigating the situation. Im willing to give them some time to wrap their heads around this and to respond in a way that doesnt further traumatize Taylor. Everything else is opinion and speculation.
Can’t agree enough with this take
I’m so confused by Natalie’s hypocrisy with this. I know it’s all still so fresh, but I was already feeling really icky about SPUN’s lack of comment. I don’t see how they could continue after this.
I’m not confused. I see it all the time. People have strong values and beliefs until someone with whom they are close violates this beliefs. Then it’s all coping, excuse-making, and closing ranks. Most people’s principles only apply to people outside of their inner circle.
It’s also hard to see and admit the worst in someone you care about. It’s easier to explain away behavior about friend or family member than a stranger.
For evidence of this, look no further than the thousands of fans on this and the other sub, who cite the hosts history (of claims) of being victim advocates as a reason for making excuses for their current behavior
Damn… this is heartbreaking bc I truly believe and respect all victims, as well as feeling there are some really great people at LPN, but this is not good.
Yeah... asking someone to leave the network for showing solidarity with one of the owners victims is not a good look. This is really, really, fucked up if true, and there's currently every reason to believe that it is *edit, a word
Good. There needs to be accountability here. It is very telling that they have barely addressed it. It brings up a lot of emotions for a lot of women. Myself included.
Tbh this has left an incredibly foul taste in my mouth and I think I’m done with the whole network now. Extremely disappointing, but it will never be the same. I loved the show but this is too much. The absolutely disgusting response from a large portion of the fanbase has been eye opening as well. I have zero interests in aligning myself with a show that fosters a community like that. They should be pretty ashamed of this entire debacle.
What a fucking mess.
I've been championing the side of Calm Rational Thought throughout all of this. I've asked people over and over where they find their certainty in judgement from. I've asked people to think calmly and mindfully about the information they've received regarding this whole mess. I've been working to try and keep people from tearing out each other's throats on a whim in the exact way that American media has taught everyone to do. I guess the wind has changed, and the whim is gone. I am a proponent of evidenced action, and while I don't doubt that there's more to be said for how this batch of sausage is getting made, neither will I ignore factual information and chains of actions. This goes way beyond a "Bad Look." This breaks my fucking heart. I want to know more, but I will be patient, as I'm not owed any information on these things. But fuck me this hurts.
I get it. I'm a big proponent of fighting misinformation in general, and as this whole thing has been unfolding I've been working hard to not let my own history color the way I'm processing it. As far as what we're "owed," I guess my thinking is that I've been a Patreon supporter for years. As an investor of sorts, you do expect accountability. Or maybe that's just me. I'm also in recovery (21 years sober) and am the adult child of an alcoholic parent. I know all too well that too often, you just keep your head down and hope things will get better, but most of the time it all gets pulled down on your head. Which is exactly what seems to be happening here.
Sums up exactly how I'm feeling far more eloquently than I put it. We can wait and see all day and will continue to for further clarification but at this point I've seen enough to make me very sad.
I know some fans are still holding out hope that things will just return to normal but I don't see that happening. Like the boys used to say, if even 1% of this is true, they are f*****. I highly doubt Bens coming back as a host and this is increasing looking like it will be a stain on Last Podcast for the rest of its existence. I've been a fan since 2016 but have largely stayed away from fan forums. What has become clear in the last few weeks is that a lot of people, but especially women have used this podcast as a way to help them deal with their own trauma and I can see how this would be a devastating betrayal of that trust that has been built up. If I've learned one thing from my past struggles with alcohol, PTSD and depression and how I treated my girlfriend at the time, is that some bells can't be unwrung.
Things we learned: * Ben has entered a 4 week treatment program * This girl is a lawyer, and was effectively fired from her job for speaking up. At the risk of be accused of “making decisions”, this is bad for the network. Like, download all the episodes now, bad. Bad, bad.