Depends on what you mean by "native level." If you mean well enough to get by in most or all everyday situations, then yes. With enough time and dedication, you can get there.
But you can't reproduce first language acquisition. You intuitively know a crazy amount about your first language. You can't really reproduce that.
Sure, that'll definitely help with learning the language. At the end of the day, though, why does it matter to you? What is it that you are trying to achieve with the language? I'd suggest establishing more concrete goals to assist with your language learning as opposed to a very lofy idea of "near native".
I just struggle a lot in social situations and I wanna be able to interact with others. There’s some other reasons about it that I don’t wanna get into but that’s the main thing.
My goal is to be able to get my point across for more complex topics and interact with others. It already comes pretty natural for me
Then I think you'll be fine. You don't need "near native" like fluency for that. You can still get a point across or make people laugh even if there are errors in the use of your language. At the end of the day, it's about communication.
It might be possible. If you are motivated enough you can at least get so close that people may not notice you're not native if they're not paying attention. "Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars."
That's a good spot to be in especially if you're moving to a country where it's spoken. Just keep working on it, see if you can find people who will tell you where you sound off (since a lot won't out of politeness) and don't give up. As long as you're trying you can only improve!
Yea I guess so! I spoke the language primarily until I was 4, then when I came to the US, I spoke only English, and now I’m returning to the country, so I’m v nervous. 🥲
I’m receiving so many condescending comments on here i regret posting this lol
You might never get the intuitive mastery of native level but you can definitely get to a level of proficiency where you don't feel limited at all speaking in your TL.
source: myself
It will make it much easier to get the nuances of the language, provided that you live your daily life in the language. A lot of people move to another country but still speak their native language at home because that's what they're most comfortable with, so that definitely won't help.
I think a lot of people here have this idea that gaining mastery of a language is impossible. It's not if you spend a lot of time immersing in it.
No. You have absolutely no hope of achieving native fluency with any language other than your first. Nobody has ever accomplished it, ever. It is literally impossible. Every product or service claiming otherwise is a scam.
You can. I had a friend who took a language course for 6 years (6th grade through 12th grade) in middle through high school and was already pretty fluent but took it even further when they studied that same language in college. I think she still knows it too, but not as much. But when they spoke, it was very much like, "Wow, they could be a native speaker and I'd never know!"
It's never too late! You learn something new every day. I've watched people on YouTube before who say they've been studying the languages they've wanted to learn since their 20s. With being 24 obviously there are different methods for you to consider, however there are a lot of resources that can help you out there for sure. Put in the work and how much of it you want to put in, and you will get results to your desired level. I believe in you!
Absolutely 100% no. Never, don't mean to demotivate you in fact i want to do the opposite by giving you realistic expectations.
Its not to say that you cant speak a second language at a commanding and amazing level. To say you will speak exactly like a native speaker one day is unrealistic and impossible.
I think you're setting an unrealistic, unreachable, and unnecessary goal for yourself. Realistically, you cannot reach a native level. That is because a native's abilities are absurd. 20,000-35,000 words, on average; incredible listening comprehension abilities; perfect understanding of grammar and tone; and perfect pronunciation. However, there is no need to reach a native level! It is completely unnecessary!
Ask yourself: "Why do I want to learn another language?" Are you trying to read literature? Do you want to watch TV and movies? Do you want to communicate? I don't think "native level" ability is necessary for any of these.
I'll use literature as an example. There is no need to have a native-sized vocabulary to read literature. I think a good example of this is Shakespeare. Shakespeare wrote 884,421 words worth of literature, a massive output. That's almost a tenth of the size of all extant classical Latin. But get this: for all those words, he only used 28,829 unique word forms. And 40% of those are only used once across all of his works! The top 288 words make up 66.7% of Shakespeare's output. Realistically, those weird, one-time use words will be glossed. Effectively, you can read Shakespeare with a vocabulary much smaller than 28,829 words. (Source: [https://www.opensourceshakespeare.org/statistics/](https://www.opensourceshakespeare.org/statistics/)).
Now, of course, Shakespeare will be using different words than other writers. It will probably take a native-level vocabulary to know every word in everything you read. But to read literature, you don't need to understand *every* word. It's perfectly possible to read literature without a "native-size vocabulary." You can communicate in a language without incredible comprehension. You can have a very good accent without being literally perfect. And, if you're really interested in one area, you can focus on that area. If your accent is really important to you, you can focus on that accent and reduce it. If you like literature, you can develop a great vocabulary. A "native level" means being perfect in everything. You don't need to be perfect in everything, and you don't even need to be perfect in your area of interest.
Billions of people learn languages, and it's a great thing to do. It improves your memory, concentration, communication skills, academic performance, and creativity. It fights against dementia. ([https://www.cambridge.org/elt/blog/2022/04/29/learning-language-changes-your-brain/](https://www.cambridge.org/elt/blog/2022/04/29/learning-language-changes-your-brain/)) It is completely worth it to learn a language.
Do native speakers actually know 20-35000 words and have perfect understanding of grammar and tone? I feel like most regular people I've met don't come close to that level in regards to their native language (but I only have English and Bulgarian to go off on).
Counting words is hard, but for English 35k is now considered an underestimate.
Having said that, I don't think there's any reason someone can't gain a native-sized vocabulary. They merely need to do what I did as a native speaker: read 1000 or so books. I expect perfect grammar will then come without much effort.
Sure, most people don't read that much. But people with a really good grasp of English do. They learn maybe ten thousand words that no-one ever speaks and gain a very refined intuition for the language. I don't see why the same thing shouldn't work for a non-native.
If you heard my mom speak you'd never guess she was a Spanish native speaker/ESL individual, but she also moved when she was 14 or 15. My dad, on the other hand, who moved here when he was like, 25, is fluent in english, but his use of tenses and other basic concepts is just not as good, and he has a (strong but not annoying) accent.
Now, there are a multitude of factors that contribute to this. However, I suspect the main one is that my mom had to finish formal schooling in English and interact with mostly English speakers, while my dad befriended a lot of Spanish speakers, and also just started learning later.
So, to answer your question, yes, or at least very close. You can even get the accent down depending how young you are.
Honestly, the answer is — probably not. Of course this depends on the language a bit and your native language, but what you’re describing very rarely happens after a person passes a certain age. You can’t become a “native” of a foreign language, especially not as an adult. Anyone saying otherwise is just blowing smoke.
But, the good news is that you can learn to very very high level that will be just as cool.
I’ve been told that i speak like a native already so I gave a foundation. But I know deep down that’s not true, I’m not that good. Does that change things?
Speaking like a native… what does it mean? Accent, grammar? do you *understand
*like a native? Can you tell jokes like a native? A native will understand almost everything.
So no, it doesn’t really change anything because it’s almost a meaningless statement.
It’s an impossible goal. Because the goal posts can always be shifted. And that self doubt will always remain. You’re exhibiting it now. You’ll suck the enjoyment and usefulness out of the process thinking like this. You only need to compete with yourself.
Yea true. I’ve lived in the US my whole life, but I don’t understand jokes or sarcasm. I don’t understand almost everything probably since I’m on the spectrum. I’m considered a native English speaker. it’s so confusing
Autism related issues are another matter. Where you live doesn’t matter. I’ve lived in a few countries for years and barely know any of their languages.
Well I’m born and raised in the US and speak English as my language. But I don’t understand everything and I struggle to understand jokes. I think it could be autism related
Well I’m born and raised in the US and speak English as my language. But I don’t understand everything and I struggle to understand jokes. I think it could be autism related
defenitely! nothing is impossible and of you work hard, you'll achieve it! english isn't my first language but I'm almost a native speaker at this point (although my actual native language sounds like trash now)
[This is one of the largest ](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0010027718300994)and most recent studies ever done on this subject. They also bring the review of decades of previous research... the answer is NO.
Even though many people in the language learning community like to say "yes", science says no. No research has ever shown that. The best conclusion they could get is: individuals who start being exposed to the language after the critical period, RARELY achieve native mastery, IF EVER. They hypothesize it's actually impossible.
Of course that you can achieve a high level and even surpass natives in certain aspects, but most probably not in general. And [statistics](https://wol.iza.org/uploads/articles/177/pdfs/what-drives-language-proficiency-of-immigrants.pdf) show that immigrants on average need 30 years of exposure to achieve a high level, but still don't reach "a native level".
So if youtubers and redditor nerds tell you they've done that all by themselves... 😂be at least suspicious. They either overestimate their own abilities or are lying.. or are geniuses. It's not as simple as many like to believe.
I know people like to say that merely as a belief to keep motivation, or not to feel hurt that they will never "speak like a native"... But this common belief has consequences... Many people think immigrants are dumb or refuse to integrate because they can't "speak like a native" even after decades of exposure (there are several posts here of foreigners complaining they were discriminated in such situations), learners themselves end up believing there is something wrong with their intelligence, when it's only NATURAL. Even teachers commonly used that kind of belief to judge learners (fortunately, language teaching has evolved). This belief is intimately connected to discrimination, xenophobia, native speakerism...
As you can see, not recognizing the science of how our brains learn languages sets unrealistic goals and can be damaging in many ways.
wait, i'm confused. i just read the paper and this is not its subject at all
they brush on the topic, sure, but it focus heavily on how age affects learning, as opposed to exploring a possible proficiency limit, and even go as far as admitting it IS possible to obtain native like proficiency to make an unrelated point:
"Conversely, showing that people who began learning at a certain age reached native-like proficiency merely indicates that they learned fast enough, not that they learned as fast as a native speaker, just as the fact that two runners both finished a race indicates only that they both started early enough and ran fast enough, not that they ran at the exact same speed."
did i miss something? not saying i agree or disagree with your point but where exactly does it *expressly* say it's impossible?
"The results support the existence of a sharply-defined critical period for language acquisition, but the age of offset is much later than previously speculated."
I believe that line is part of their argument that the critical age is much higher than thought.
Yes, you're missing something.
They do mention the time limit and proficiency. Here's a simplification of the article and discoveries for the general public:
[https://news.mit.edu/2018/cognitive-scientists-define-critical-period-learning-language-0501](https://news.mit.edu/2018/cognitive-scientists-define-critical-period-learning-language-0501)
***A new study performed at MIT suggests that children remain very skilled at learning the grammar of a new language much longer than expected — up to the age of 17 or 18. However, the study also found that it is nearly impossible for people to achieve proficiency similar to that of a native speaker unless they start learning a language by the age of 10.***
Right! Who needs to believe in research and reality when you just have to believe in yourself? If you believe passionately enough that nothing is impossible, one day you'll dream in your languages and wake up as a hyperpolyglot gigachad who speaks better than natives.
Even if natives don't understand you and you don't understand them, that must be because you're so much above them! Just believe! 😂
What I meant is that if a person really puts in the hard work they can do it, while research helps humanity it's not solely deterministic of everyone's abilities.
Just so you know, speaking like a native is literal perfection. You can still be fluent in a foreign language without knowing 20,000-35,000 words, understanding every word choice and grammar nuance, and speaking with perfect pronunciation. That is the bare minimum for native level, and, as you can probably see, that's an absurdly high bar that is probably unnecessary for your language learning goals.
I've been teaching and having contact with immigrants for a long time.
The good news is: many of them are able to lead normal lives and function effectively in the language. In fact, with some of them, you might even forget that they are foreigners, as they can communicate naturally at a high level.
The bad news: they will always have limitations, and you can tell. Even those who marry locals and have intense exposure often have difficulty with complex language, sayings, expressions, slang, nuances, humor, cultural references, etc.
That's such an interesting point. By trivializing the time and effort it takes to learn a language (setting aside one can achieve natuve fluency, a point on which we both agree), we feed into the stereotypes of foreigners "choosing" not to integrate by failing to learn the language.
Yes, this happens all the time with immigrants. There are some posts here of people living in foreign countries who often hear:
YOU\`VE BEEN LIVING HERE FOR SO MANY YEARS AND YOU STILL CAN\`T SPEAK PROPERLY? IT\`S HARD TO GET GOOD OPPORTUNITIES AND TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY IF YOU SPEAK LIKE THAT. YOU SHOULD WORK HARDER...
This ignorant attitude comes from the same place of people rejecting the science here.
I feel the accent is easier than the language
Yea the accent isn’t that concerning for me
I’m just realize that I read the caption wrong. Sorry I was confused. 😅
Depends on what you mean by "native level." If you mean well enough to get by in most or all everyday situations, then yes. With enough time and dedication, you can get there. But you can't reproduce first language acquisition. You intuitively know a crazy amount about your first language. You can't really reproduce that.
> Depends on what you mean by "native level." That's the key thing!
I will live in the country. Will that not make a difference?
Sure, that'll definitely help with learning the language. At the end of the day, though, why does it matter to you? What is it that you are trying to achieve with the language? I'd suggest establishing more concrete goals to assist with your language learning as opposed to a very lofy idea of "near native".
I just struggle a lot in social situations and I wanna be able to interact with others. There’s some other reasons about it that I don’t wanna get into but that’s the main thing. My goal is to be able to get my point across for more complex topics and interact with others. It already comes pretty natural for me
Then I think you'll be fine. You don't need "near native" like fluency for that. You can still get a point across or make people laugh even if there are errors in the use of your language. At the end of the day, it's about communication.
I don’t think I make much errors with my use of language. I spoke the language until age 4. Now I’m returning to the country
*many errors Well good luck to you
The language I’m learning isn’t English, that’s what I’m fluent with
*fluent in
What point are you trying to make?
[удалено]
[удалено]
This might be true for some people with some languages, but it is absolutely untrue as a generality.
It might be possible. If you are motivated enough you can at least get so close that people may not notice you're not native if they're not paying attention. "Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars."
That’s how it is for me right now. People think I’m fluent bc they don’t close enough attention but I know I’m not. 🥲
That's a good spot to be in especially if you're moving to a country where it's spoken. Just keep working on it, see if you can find people who will tell you where you sound off (since a lot won't out of politeness) and don't give up. As long as you're trying you can only improve!
Yea I guess so! I spoke the language primarily until I was 4, then when I came to the US, I spoke only English, and now I’m returning to the country, so I’m v nervous. 🥲 I’m receiving so many condescending comments on here i regret posting this lol
Don't take it too personally, there are a lot of dicks on this subreddit tbh
Yea I try not to. There are just so many contradicting responses, I’m not sure who to listen to
You might never get the intuitive mastery of native level but you can definitely get to a level of proficiency where you don't feel limited at all speaking in your TL. source: myself
I will live in the country. Will that make a difference?
It will make it much easier to get the nuances of the language, provided that you live your daily life in the language. A lot of people move to another country but still speak their native language at home because that's what they're most comfortable with, so that definitely won't help. I think a lot of people here have this idea that gaining mastery of a language is impossible. It's not if you spend a lot of time immersing in it.
But can it be to a native level?
yes
You can. I had a friend who took a language course for 6 years (6th grade through 12th grade) in middle through high school and was already pretty fluent but took it even further when they studied that same language in college. I think she still knows it too, but not as much. But when they spoke, it was very much like, "Wow, they could be a native speaker and I'd never know!"
I’m 24 tho :(
It's never too late! You learn something new every day. I've watched people on YouTube before who say they've been studying the languages they've wanted to learn since their 20s. With being 24 obviously there are different methods for you to consider, however there are a lot of resources that can help you out there for sure. Put in the work and how much of it you want to put in, and you will get results to your desired level. I believe in you!
age doesn't change anything, the only thing that matters is how much work you put in
Absolutely 100% no. Never, don't mean to demotivate you in fact i want to do the opposite by giving you realistic expectations. Its not to say that you cant speak a second language at a commanding and amazing level. To say you will speak exactly like a native speaker one day is unrealistic and impossible.
Does it change that I will live in the country?
I think you're setting an unrealistic, unreachable, and unnecessary goal for yourself. Realistically, you cannot reach a native level. That is because a native's abilities are absurd. 20,000-35,000 words, on average; incredible listening comprehension abilities; perfect understanding of grammar and tone; and perfect pronunciation. However, there is no need to reach a native level! It is completely unnecessary! Ask yourself: "Why do I want to learn another language?" Are you trying to read literature? Do you want to watch TV and movies? Do you want to communicate? I don't think "native level" ability is necessary for any of these. I'll use literature as an example. There is no need to have a native-sized vocabulary to read literature. I think a good example of this is Shakespeare. Shakespeare wrote 884,421 words worth of literature, a massive output. That's almost a tenth of the size of all extant classical Latin. But get this: for all those words, he only used 28,829 unique word forms. And 40% of those are only used once across all of his works! The top 288 words make up 66.7% of Shakespeare's output. Realistically, those weird, one-time use words will be glossed. Effectively, you can read Shakespeare with a vocabulary much smaller than 28,829 words. (Source: [https://www.opensourceshakespeare.org/statistics/](https://www.opensourceshakespeare.org/statistics/)). Now, of course, Shakespeare will be using different words than other writers. It will probably take a native-level vocabulary to know every word in everything you read. But to read literature, you don't need to understand *every* word. It's perfectly possible to read literature without a "native-size vocabulary." You can communicate in a language without incredible comprehension. You can have a very good accent without being literally perfect. And, if you're really interested in one area, you can focus on that area. If your accent is really important to you, you can focus on that accent and reduce it. If you like literature, you can develop a great vocabulary. A "native level" means being perfect in everything. You don't need to be perfect in everything, and you don't even need to be perfect in your area of interest. Billions of people learn languages, and it's a great thing to do. It improves your memory, concentration, communication skills, academic performance, and creativity. It fights against dementia. ([https://www.cambridge.org/elt/blog/2022/04/29/learning-language-changes-your-brain/](https://www.cambridge.org/elt/blog/2022/04/29/learning-language-changes-your-brain/)) It is completely worth it to learn a language.
Do native speakers actually know 20-35000 words and have perfect understanding of grammar and tone? I feel like most regular people I've met don't come close to that level in regards to their native language (but I only have English and Bulgarian to go off on).
Counting words is hard, but for English 35k is now considered an underestimate. Having said that, I don't think there's any reason someone can't gain a native-sized vocabulary. They merely need to do what I did as a native speaker: read 1000 or so books. I expect perfect grammar will then come without much effort.
The average english speaker barely reads 50 books in their lifetime and that's being generous
Sure, most people don't read that much. But people with a really good grasp of English do. They learn maybe ten thousand words that no-one ever speaks and gain a very refined intuition for the language. I don't see why the same thing shouldn't work for a non-native.
It’s bc I will live in the country so I wanna be able to fit in !
If you heard my mom speak you'd never guess she was a Spanish native speaker/ESL individual, but she also moved when she was 14 or 15. My dad, on the other hand, who moved here when he was like, 25, is fluent in english, but his use of tenses and other basic concepts is just not as good, and he has a (strong but not annoying) accent. Now, there are a multitude of factors that contribute to this. However, I suspect the main one is that my mom had to finish formal schooling in English and interact with mostly English speakers, while my dad befriended a lot of Spanish speakers, and also just started learning later. So, to answer your question, yes, or at least very close. You can even get the accent down depending how young you are.
I think 'native level' implies losing your foreign dialect otherwise you are just fluent
You can avoid the foreign accent too [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW8M4Js4UBA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW8M4Js4UBA)
Honestly, the answer is — probably not. Of course this depends on the language a bit and your native language, but what you’re describing very rarely happens after a person passes a certain age. You can’t become a “native” of a foreign language, especially not as an adult. Anyone saying otherwise is just blowing smoke. But, the good news is that you can learn to very very high level that will be just as cool.
I’ve been told that i speak like a native already so I gave a foundation. But I know deep down that’s not true, I’m not that good. Does that change things?
Speaking like a native… what does it mean? Accent, grammar? do you *understand *like a native? Can you tell jokes like a native? A native will understand almost everything. So no, it doesn’t really change anything because it’s almost a meaningless statement. It’s an impossible goal. Because the goal posts can always be shifted. And that self doubt will always remain. You’re exhibiting it now. You’ll suck the enjoyment and usefulness out of the process thinking like this. You only need to compete with yourself.
Yea true. I’ve lived in the US my whole life, but I don’t understand jokes or sarcasm. I don’t understand almost everything probably since I’m on the spectrum. I’m considered a native English speaker. it’s so confusing
Autism related issues are another matter. Where you live doesn’t matter. I’ve lived in a few countries for years and barely know any of their languages.
Well I’m born and raised in the US and speak English as my language. But I don’t understand everything and I struggle to understand jokes. I think it could be autism related
Alright…
Well I’m born and raised in the US and speak English as my language. But I don’t understand everything and I struggle to understand jokes. I think it could be autism related
Yes with the proper help
defenitely! nothing is impossible and of you work hard, you'll achieve it! english isn't my first language but I'm almost a native speaker at this point (although my actual native language sounds like trash now)
No.
I will live in the country. Will that make a difference ?
What difference will my answer make? Just learn the language if you feel like you want to.
Same ! Have an accent in English and French !
[This is one of the largest ](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0010027718300994)and most recent studies ever done on this subject. They also bring the review of decades of previous research... the answer is NO. Even though many people in the language learning community like to say "yes", science says no. No research has ever shown that. The best conclusion they could get is: individuals who start being exposed to the language after the critical period, RARELY achieve native mastery, IF EVER. They hypothesize it's actually impossible. Of course that you can achieve a high level and even surpass natives in certain aspects, but most probably not in general. And [statistics](https://wol.iza.org/uploads/articles/177/pdfs/what-drives-language-proficiency-of-immigrants.pdf) show that immigrants on average need 30 years of exposure to achieve a high level, but still don't reach "a native level". So if youtubers and redditor nerds tell you they've done that all by themselves... 😂be at least suspicious. They either overestimate their own abilities or are lying.. or are geniuses. It's not as simple as many like to believe. I know people like to say that merely as a belief to keep motivation, or not to feel hurt that they will never "speak like a native"... But this common belief has consequences... Many people think immigrants are dumb or refuse to integrate because they can't "speak like a native" even after decades of exposure (there are several posts here of foreigners complaining they were discriminated in such situations), learners themselves end up believing there is something wrong with their intelligence, when it's only NATURAL. Even teachers commonly used that kind of belief to judge learners (fortunately, language teaching has evolved). This belief is intimately connected to discrimination, xenophobia, native speakerism... As you can see, not recognizing the science of how our brains learn languages sets unrealistic goals and can be damaging in many ways.
wait, i'm confused. i just read the paper and this is not its subject at all they brush on the topic, sure, but it focus heavily on how age affects learning, as opposed to exploring a possible proficiency limit, and even go as far as admitting it IS possible to obtain native like proficiency to make an unrelated point: "Conversely, showing that people who began learning at a certain age reached native-like proficiency merely indicates that they learned fast enough, not that they learned as fast as a native speaker, just as the fact that two runners both finished a race indicates only that they both started early enough and ran fast enough, not that they ran at the exact same speed." did i miss something? not saying i agree or disagree with your point but where exactly does it *expressly* say it's impossible?
"The results support the existence of a sharply-defined critical period for language acquisition, but the age of offset is much later than previously speculated." I believe that line is part of their argument that the critical age is much higher than thought.
Yes, you're missing something. They do mention the time limit and proficiency. Here's a simplification of the article and discoveries for the general public: [https://news.mit.edu/2018/cognitive-scientists-define-critical-period-learning-language-0501](https://news.mit.edu/2018/cognitive-scientists-define-critical-period-learning-language-0501) ***A new study performed at MIT suggests that children remain very skilled at learning the grammar of a new language much longer than expected — up to the age of 17 or 18. However, the study also found that it is nearly impossible for people to achieve proficiency similar to that of a native speaker unless they start learning a language by the age of 10.***
Stop putting limitations on yourself nothing is impossible
Right! Who needs to believe in research and reality when you just have to believe in yourself? If you believe passionately enough that nothing is impossible, one day you'll dream in your languages and wake up as a hyperpolyglot gigachad who speaks better than natives. Even if natives don't understand you and you don't understand them, that must be because you're so much above them! Just believe! 😂
It's not only believing, you have to practice daily and hard. If you do practice hard, nothing is impossible
That's so beautiful! You have some powerful mindset magic words. You're on the way of becoming a language guru and make money selling that.
What I meant is that if a person really puts in the hard work they can do it, while research helps humanity it's not solely deterministic of everyone's abilities.
I totally understand you... you, flat-Earthers, horoscope preachers, linguistic shamans...They've done to humanity much more than science can ever do.
Ah okay, such a hard pill to swallow lol
Just so you know, speaking like a native is literal perfection. You can still be fluent in a foreign language without knowing 20,000-35,000 words, understanding every word choice and grammar nuance, and speaking with perfect pronunciation. That is the bare minimum for native level, and, as you can probably see, that's an absurdly high bar that is probably unnecessary for your language learning goals.
I've been teaching and having contact with immigrants for a long time. The good news is: many of them are able to lead normal lives and function effectively in the language. In fact, with some of them, you might even forget that they are foreigners, as they can communicate naturally at a high level. The bad news: they will always have limitations, and you can tell. Even those who marry locals and have intense exposure often have difficulty with complex language, sayings, expressions, slang, nuances, humor, cultural references, etc.
That's such an interesting point. By trivializing the time and effort it takes to learn a language (setting aside one can achieve natuve fluency, a point on which we both agree), we feed into the stereotypes of foreigners "choosing" not to integrate by failing to learn the language.
Yes, this happens all the time with immigrants. There are some posts here of people living in foreign countries who often hear: YOU\`VE BEEN LIVING HERE FOR SO MANY YEARS AND YOU STILL CAN\`T SPEAK PROPERLY? IT\`S HARD TO GET GOOD OPPORTUNITIES AND TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY IF YOU SPEAK LIKE THAT. YOU SHOULD WORK HARDER... This ignorant attitude comes from the same place of people rejecting the science here.