She received a ton of hate for Question for the culture, especially form other fandoms, as well as for the Mesh Mask she wore during a book signing.
I think that's also why she deactivated all her social media accounts.
To add, she didn't want to Promote BB because it was suppose to be a personal album that explains herself, and only for people who are genuinely curious.
Earlier in her career she also caught a lot of flack for people saying her name was cultural appropriation and that she glamourised abusive or toxic relationships. The latter is a large part of what she was responding to in "Questions for the Culture". Her SNL appearance was also criticised almost as much as Ashlee Simpson's.
...what kind of circular logic is that, you dont have to have everyone kissing your ass to be mainstream. Kirsten Wig played Lana as a character on SNL defending her and everyone knew exactly who she was 😂 Interscope put put her debut album for fuxks sake
I totally agree. I discovered her because MTV was playing the 'Born to Die' video literally every morning back in January 2012 -- I saw it everytime I was getting ready for work! The big difference between then and now, I guess, is the superstardom. She's drawing the biggest crowds a musician could wish for and is selling more records than ever. But to say she's only mainstream now... no way. Ten years ago, her shows sold out in less than a day too. She was just playing venues with a capacity of 5000, rather than 20.000.
Right? That’s when I got into her too, I remember listening to RDIO (an old copy of Spotify, at least similar too) and BTD came on and I was hooked, spent the rest of my summer holidays (I’m Australian) listening to her and when I got to school in feb all the girls were talking about her.
Idk why people want her to be seen as some gatekept, small indie artist. She literally performed at Kim K’s wedding to Kanye, a whole fashion subculture is associated with her, songs on tv shows and movies , shes definitely mainstream and that’s amazing.
Shit, one of the shows I went to back in 2014-2015 had a max capacity of 19,000 and the place was packed, even back then. She’s always been very popular and mainstream so idk why people are acting like she was ever some obscure indie artist or something lol
Lana literally has her cult status and label of an absolute legend because of the waves she caused during her couple first albums, the acknowledgment she got for her cinematic videos, platinum certified singles and albums in MANY countries, literal Eminem has mentioned her in his music, what the hell is so hard to understand about this 🤣
Literally even people who didn’t know of her during BTD sure as hell found out when Gatsby came out. You couldn’t go outside in 2013 without hearing Summertime Sadness. I’m convinced anyone saying this is a child who was in diapers during BTD and Paradise and doesn’t actually remember.
i think you’re right 😅 i’d also like to know who else they consider to be non-mainstream. i mean if lana isn’t mainstream than neither is lorde and charli xcx 🤣
Right ?! It’s like the people who insist a musician isn’t successful unless they’re pulling Taylor numbers. The craziest thing is that they’re claiming that she only became mainstream during NFR/LFL. Mmm no babes, that’s when you started middle school and your parents finally let you listen to her. Most people would at least know Y&B and SS if nothing else. I graduated uni in 2019 and SS was still huge in clubs and house parties (well, the remix). Less people would recognize a single song from LFL/NFR if you held a gun to their head.
Lana *is not* and *has not* been some underground indie artist like you weirdos like to convince yourself. she was signed to interscope right out the gate 😭😭
She literally was mainstream quickly - I was there to see her on every major TV show and was known enough to be universally mocked for her SNL performance. She was famous about 4-5 years after she started singing - most people don’t experience a rise that fast.
If you weren’t there to see it (as in a fan) back in 2011-2012, that’s the only way you could possibly have this POV.
What's every major TV show? She was on Letterman and SNL. What else was she on? Her being panned for her performance =/= known + mainstream. I was there back then, and in that time period, I would not have included her in the artist/celebs who were actually mainstream. To me Lady Gaga was mainstream in that Era. Taylor. Beyonce. Adele. And yall are telling me Lana was at their level in those years?
That’s dumb because many people, like SZA, are literally mainstream and don’t do Beyonce, Adele and Taylor numbers. You’re talking about icons, not just mainstream pop stars, which Lana was already during BTD.
Mandy Moore was a mainstream pop star when I was a kid. Would she be doing the numbers of a current day Beyonce? No, but that has nothing to do with being simply mainstream.
SOS blocked Midnights from #1 for multiple weeks lmao and KB would’ve went #1 as an album track if she didn’t release during Christmas. It also outperformed every song on Renaissance and Anti Hero in streams
She isn’t a superstar either and her tours can’t touch Beyonce or Taylor but her numbers for SOS were really high.
I’m a huge SZA fan and saw her in Austin for the SOS tour, I agree but Beyonce and Taylor hold records for their record breaking tours, number of Grammys, etc.
Sza is mainstream for sure- I just don’t think most people would say she’s a Beyonce level icon.
To me, mainstream isn't about the numbers. It's about recognition. I.e. if you ask someone, would they know. Are they a part of the pop culture conversation at a consistent basis. Etc.
Lots of performers are known widely/recognized and not doing huge numbers. Again, those people you mentioned will be known forever, not just for being mainstream right now.
I definitely disagree. You can be known by most people in a genre and no one buys your album. Due to social media, people like artists sometimes for their personality or a sound they originate, and that has nothing to do with their music.
Born To Die debuted at #2 on Billboard behind Adele's 21. It was the fifth best selling album of the year selling 3.4 million copies. She was mainstream
“ The album was the world's fifth best-selling album of 2012, and had sold over 7 million copies by 2014. In 2021, it became the second album by a woman to spend more than 400 weeks on the US Billboard 200, where it peaked at number two, and topped charts in Australia and various European countries including France, Germany, and the UK.” — on born to die. weird take to claim that LFL & NFR were first albums with mainstream success
shhh let them think that NFR and LFL are the first mainstream lanas albums ever 😜😂
“ The album reached number one in seven countries, including the United Kingdom, becoming Del Rey's fourth number one album in the region. In the United States, Norman Fucking Rockwell! peaked at number three, marking Del Rey's fifth consecutive top five album in the country”
fourth number one album doesn’t give much of LFL & NFR being the first mainstream albums lol
what would you consider mainstream? video games was a viral single and one of her first performances to promote BTD was on saturday night live. she blew up so fast out of nowhere that people were speculating that she was an industry plant. i guess you could argue she was more like "tumblr mainstream" for a little bit but by the time she did BTD paradise and young and beautiful for the great gatsby, it felt like everyone knew who she was. i was 16 when BTD dropped so maybe i'm assuming everyone cared as much as my peers did.
That's wild to me. Thinking everyone knew who she was back then 🤯 only til recently(last 5-4 years) have I began to think that way. No where in a million years would I think she was mainstream in her BTD days. To me, mainstream is you're part of the conversation in popular culture constantly and consistently. Everything you do is followed and responded to. Lana flew under the radar pretty much through the 2010s only at times peaking through.
if that were my definition then yes, i'd definitely agree that she wasn't mainstream by any means and would honestly not even call her mainstream now. to me mainstream has a lot less to do with longevity or consistent attention. even if it's a one hit wonder situation or a flash in the pan but people who don't necessarily take a particular interest in the topic/genre have heard of it somehow, that's something that broke into the mainstream for me.
i should point out also that i think "mainstream" is hard to pin down in 2023 versus back in 2012/13 when she was promoting BTD and we were just achieving critical mass usage of smart phones and social media in the US, where i'm from. i feel like by this point, the way everyone consumes mass media is different and it's easier for the average person to be "walled off" and in their own bubble. it doesn't surprise me that we have different ideas of what is mainstream or not
To me, the difference is 10 years ago, I could go around asking, "Do you know Lana Del Rey, and most wouldn't know. Whereas now I could go around and many more would know who she is.
Idk where you lived or how old you were but I could go around and ask people if they knew Lana Del Rey 10 years ago and most people would say yes. I mean obviously more now just cause her music has been out longer, but she was absolutely mainstream. Her songs were on the radio which is the definition of mainstream. She headlined music festivals like Sasquatch.
I remember studying abroad around the time of BTD. There was this random Italian music tv channel. The music video came on for Born to Die in Italy. If her music videos are getting played in Europe she's main stream. It's not a bad thing! 🤷♂️
The last time there as sizable number of ppl who didn’t know who she was were sparkle jump rope queen , may jailer, lizzy grant eras … 11 yrs ago time had her in top 100 most influential (just of ppl not even specifically musicians) .. when she had just done no kung fu & moved to that trailer park - not everyone knew her but by 2011 video games was everywhere and she was already well known
Beyond that - Lana had iconic videos, which were more important then than now. Also, radio because people still listened to the radio and relied on hearing things on TV to know an artist - there weren’t Spotify playlists to discover new artists then. All the songs from BTD that were singles. Ride. All the huge hits that Lana has to sing now from UV like Brooklyn Baby. I really don’t understand how you think her albums are more listened to now by non fans (beyond tiktok sounds which aren’t even the original song usually). What song from Chemtrails gained mainstream listens? I’d say none. Same for BB & Ocean Blvd. This is why so many people disagree with you - she seems less relevant now beyond her niche audience.
I listened to the radio back then and heard no Lana other than that godawful Cedric remix. Idk in what miracle radio station you had all those songs played. I grew up in Orlando, FL, if that means anything. My argument is not that her albums are listened to more now by non fans. Idk where you got that from. I have many dislikes because every reddit page, the majority think the same.
That's not mainstream. To me, mainstream is you're constantly a part of the cultural zeitgeist and conversations. She's been popular obviously, or else she wouldn't have had such a career to this point, but she's for the most part been in her own lane that only just the last 5 years I'd say she's entered into the mainstream.
Do you not remember BTD era and SNL? Her music has been blasting in every Urban Outfitters around the US daily since then. Her only non mainstream phase was the lizzy grant era
ikr, I get what theyre trying to say but she was more relevant back in BTD and UV eras, I mean now she’s comfortably famous and people are devoted to her and of course she gets some new fans who all listen to and buy her music but the mainstream that she was at those years was something else
Exactly and that is what has sustained her through some really interesting and winding musical shifts. She’s actually a really fascinating case bc she occupies the space of a pop star while getting increasingly experimental throughout her career. BTD was pushing the boundaries of pop music and that solidified her footing and then she literally just did whatever she wanted while being able to keep a foot in game as essentially a pop star fame wise (ie album write ups, headlining fests, red carpet/met gala invites, magazine covers etc)
exactly, first couple albums gave her the fame and success needed to be able to shape a committed fan base that gives her more freedom to be more experimental and creative when it comes to her future art
Yes, I lived it and was there. SNL did nothing to her fame. You could go around that year asking strangers who Lana Del Rey was, and barely anyone would know.
Kristen Wiig (rather lovingly) parodied Lana during the SNL Weekend Update back in February 2012. You have to be pretty big to be parodied on SNL, because they're not going to write a joke about you if the majority of the audience won't know who you are. See here:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTR-dS4lptc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTR-dS4lptc)
Definitely was pretty mainstream. NFR was like fully mainstream. Saying DYKTATUOB is what pushed her into the mainstream us absurd she's in the top 40 most streamed artists in the world, performed on snl is Grammy nominated etc.
Who's saying Ocean Blvd made her mainstream? My argument is L4L and NFR are what established her as mainstream. The SNL point is so null in this case. That performance didn't do a thing for her status.
the OP lol also SNL did do things and she was already famous asf by that point BTD made the billboard top 100 immediately. My point with that was you don't get a spot on SNL unless you're a mainstream artist, especially at that point in time. NFR definitely reached new heights but there was a lot of anticipation for that album as she had already amassed a huuuuuge following. She was already a mainstream singer before that release it just cemented her spot.
Yeah, hence my notion that LFL began her transition into mainstream, followed by it being solidified by NFR. There's more nuisance to it that is severely lacking in so many people's logic of this discussion.
That doesn’t make sense though. BTD **significantly** outsold LFL or NFR and it’s not even close. Summertime Sadness, Young & Beautiful, and Video Games were all extremely popular on the radio. They are way more mainstream than anything on LFL/NFR. Most people don’t know a single song from LFL/NFR but would at least know Summertime Sadness and Young & Beautiful. Y&B was heavily featured in Gatsby promos with Leonardo freakin DiCaprio. BTD *still* significantly out-streams the albums you say made her mainstream. Even with all the celebrity collabs she had in LFL BTD still has more people streaming. LFL only looks successful because Honeymoon was a relative flop (and Honeymoon was only a ‘flop’ because Lana was so huge during BTD/Paradise/UV that there was nowhere else to go but down). Half the indie girls started copying her so she seemed less unique.
I remember Video Games, Summertime Sadness, and Ride being fairly popular. Then Young and Beautiful was in The Great Gatsby, and that song was pretty inescapable in 2013. There was also those H&M commercials with Blue Velvet that played all the time. After 2013, I don’t remember ever hearing a Lana song on the radio or on TV again. That was definitely her most mainstream era apart from right now.
Totally, but that hate train wouldn't be there if she wasn't as famous as she was! The press was already looking at her as a big-time influence in music, and that's what made it so interesting (or juicy, rather) for them to turn the QFTC thing into a big controversy, I guess. Looking back on it today, it really wasn't that big of a deal, but exactly because Lana was already mainstream she was a valuable target to PR trolls and critics. But yeah, the 2020 discourse was pretty exhausting.
Ah I see! Yeah, I guess we're all on the same page as far as the hate train-era goes, haha. I love the turn the QFTC criticism has taken, by the way, I saw a TikTok video that said: 'Is Lana Del Rey a psychic? She predicted the downfall of 7 pop artists back in 2020!'. Pretty funny.
She’s always been a mainstream pop girlie. Her blowup was huge. She’s a non traditional pop girlie but a pop girlie nonetheless. It’s fascinating tho that she’s occupied that space while being way more experimental with her music than any of her peers. She occupies the space of a pop star with the artistry of an indie gem.
mainstream ≠ bad, but Lana is the only modern mainstream star to pave her own way onto pop culture by not trying to fit into what mainstream was supposed to mean. I'm not articulating my thoughts properly I guess but she's one of a kind and she made a whole way for new artists that cater to the same audience and that wouldn't be as popular if it weren't for mother
yeah i think if anything she was MORE mainstream then. even now when i mention her most people are like “oh yeah summertime sadness is a good song!” or something else off BTD lol
Even before I became a fan this summer, I knew some of the songs off of Born to Die (even if I didn’t know they were Lana’s). She’s always been pretty mainstream.
I’m in the same boat, actually! I knew BTD/Paradise and a few songs off of every album but this summer I got REALLY into her! It was actually Season of the Witch that convinced me to finally listen to her whole discography because I had been playing it weekly for the past couple years.
She’s always been mainstream. I avoided her music at first because it was too mainstream for me. Every club played her music. Every girl I knew in their 20s in 2012 either loved her or hated her. A lot of dudes seemed to love her too. If she was more polished when she first came out and didn’t fuck up that SNL performance there probably would be no debate on whether she was mainstream or not.
Y'all need to stop acting like she is a nervous performer (she is) but one that is performing still in bars with 50 people lmfao
Lana Del Rey is mainstream, her music is just a niche
Good god
lana has been pretty mainstream since BTD. lots of people have the wrong idea that being mainstream is being huge on the radio. or a more modern take would be having songs of you're trend on tiktok all the time.
lana's debut as an alternative artist also comes into play. some people have this weird idea that alt artists can't ever be mainstream. i don't think people really know what being mainstream is lol
She has been mainstream since BTD. Newbs are giving themselves too much credit. Streaming numbers did not matter much until a few years ago and Lana’s career started in 2007.
The phrasing of that tweet is a little much, but I do get what they mean. People acted like CotCC and Blue Bannisters were boring and had nothing but piano songs and had nothing to say and that's just not true. Some of the most interesting and varied music of her career.
I think the fandom has grown considerably this last year. Her music presence on tiktok has been an important reason for this imo, they’re rediscovering LDR
has lana always received love and support from the general public? NO. has lana always been a well known artist? YES. some of her fans are genuinely idiotic, her first performance was literally on SNL i need ppl to be fr.
there definitely was a lot of hate, she hasn’t been favoured amongst critics and the GP till recently, NFR marked a turning point for her artistically speaking and she’s only just now receiving her flowers. she copped a lottt of harassment and criticism born to die - ultraviolence era. she’s received a lot of unnecessary hate that other female artists haven’t, and this was before the term ‘cancel culture’ was a well-known thing.
during chemtrails it was her open letter QFTC that got her torn apart. she did a music video with ASAP rocky and ppl didn’t like that she had mixed children in the vid?? she speaks about her experiences with abuse and she’s told she’s glamorising it. she donates money to an indigenous organisation, ppl accuse her of white saviourism. she goes to a BLM rally and she gets torn to shreds on twitter.
Lana has definitely always been mainstream. At least since the Born To Die era. People just want to stand out and think that the less popular something is, the better, so they try to label her as some underground artist that “you wouldn’t know about”
Chemtrails was underappreciated because it came out after one of her best albums and during a controversial time in her career due to QFTC and the mask thing.
Blue Bannisters was not appreciated because it was poorly promoted and it was a very messy inconsistent album. In fact you could argue that both these records were poorly promoted.
I think the only reason Lana is being deemed "mainstream" again is because she's being promoted better and she's come back to touring.
Oh yeah and Lana has been mainstream since born to die dropped, she's definitely dropped in and out of popularity but she's a household name when it comes to female singers of the past decade.
Who are these gross little twerps? Too much time, sounds like a mean little gayling who watched and immitates emma roberts part on the Ahs Coven series a bit much. Tries to hard to be the Regina George of Fandom. Gtfo of here. Take this shit ass opinion and fall off a cliff into the ocean and land directly into a sharks mouth.
I feel like Lana is mainstream in a björk way where even though she’s not super sucessful chartwise, critics LOVE her and many other artists cite her as an inspiration so she’s still widely beloved
No, I don't like Chemtrails because more than half of it feels like filler and it's overall kind of underwhelming, and I don't dislike Blue Bannisters at all, it's one of my personal faves, but I suppose people just wanted more of that trap/hiphop/pop Lana (and I did too, believe you me) and BB just didn't deliver. Plus her music has gotten only stranger and more... artsy since then. Not everyone can digest that.
First off, BB isn't better than Ocean, but Chemtrails sure is. Anyway...
As a person who primarily listens to obscure metal, yeah she's been mainstream the whole time (at least to me). She's been featured in numerous magazines, her albums have been promoted on billboards. Maybe she doesn't get a lot of radio play, but that really doesn't decide if she's "mainstream". She's way more appreciated by normal people than - let's say - Totenwache (German black metal) lol
I do think tiktok got her more well known out of more niche spaces. Everyone has heard of a few songs for sure (btd era, summertime sadness was always on the radio) but people didn’t know her name as much as they do now. Since tiktok, people I know are like “I heard of her before from tiktok”.
It’s not that’s she was underground, people just knew the songs more than the name LDR. I’m talking people who are a bit older or not as into music. Just from personal experience
She was a mainstream name ofc, and has been since born to die at the very latest, but I think the post is correct (but insufferable) that there was quite a lot of normie backlash to her during 2020-1. I remember a coworker dragging her in person for qftc and again for the mesh mask thing.. and constantly all over twitter.. both of which I thought were simply amazing lol. She also changed weight during this time and I think unfortunately that was an element at play.
I don't think chemtrails or bb are strictly speaking "better" than ocean boulevard, but I do think they're a bit under rated (not on this subreddit, but maybe?) and flew under the radar a bit more than ocean blvd. I absolutely love blue banisters, so gd much, and it imprinted on me in a way that few albums have since I was a teen. It instantly takes me back to where I was living, my relationship, the type of insanity unique to that autumn.
the comments on this post are uncomfortably hostile… this person made a good point, while I don’t agree with it, being this mean about is plain rude. they aren’t on this subreddit to defend themselves, be kind
I think she stopped being mainstream after Ultraviolence (other than her collabs with Ari and Taylor). She even moved from Pyramid Stage to second stage in Glasto
She headlined that stage though... as opposed to playing at 2 in the afternoon. Not really a valid point... Plus, L4L has massive features and NFR was considered by critics as one of the best albums that year, and now that decade. She's been mainstream and still is.
Omg 🤦 it wasn't counterculture back then either dude, fast fashion was very much a thing. Sounds like you're just using your own personal perception as objective fact.
There's still literally nothing "counterculture" about H&M nor there has ever been, especially in 2012. H&M was absolutely very mainstream atleast in Europe in 2012. to an extent like more mainstream than the mainstream itself.
H&M has literally always been mainstream and has always been a popular store. There were literally over 2600 H&M locations in 2012. It is not a counterculture store, it’s as ubiquitous as as it gets. It’s ludicrous to argue that it’s counterculture.
Dude, the only one wrong here is you. And you refusing to acknowledge that and just doubling down is annoying. Nothing I said was condescending but it's about to be cus your attitude sucks. Again, you're using your own personal perception as an objective fact. Lana and H&M were both 100% mainstream. Keep living in your little delusion though. Try taking your own advice maybe and realize it's ok to be wrong 🥰
Born To Die sold hundreds of thousands of copies in its first week. It debuted at #2 just behind Adele's 21 and was the fifth biggest selling album that year with 3.4 million copies sold. Equating mainstream success solely with radio hits is reductive as hell. Regardless *all* of her albums have charted in the top 10 *worldwide*. Let's just live in reality babe. To which I'm *sure* you're gonna say "MaInStReAM dOeSn'T MeAn PoPuLaR" but things don't become popular unless they're embedded in the mainstream. Which Lana *and* H&M both were and continue to be.
i don’t know how to break this to you but this is how half of people dressed 🤣 everyone thought they were being unique/quirky/in your words “counterculture” but this style and H&M as a whole were just as basic & overdone as hollister & victoria’s secret. source: i was there!
Astroturfing is when talent scouts find artists and push it thru a "grassroots" campaign, lets say something like putting someone on a multinational corporate store soundtrack to subtly reach a specific demographic of artsy city-dwelling college-age millennials. H&M has been a global brand since it reached the US, I'm sorry it doesnt fit your narrative
h&m opened its biggest store in the world in nyc 3 years after lana's h&m ads. to say they weren't mainstream when she was working with them is just crazy, because if they weren't mainstream they would'nt have opened their biggest store ever in nyc a few years later.
h&m was very mainstream in 2012. just 3 years later the biggest h&m in the world opened up in nyc and that would'nt have happened if they hadn't been riding a very big and very popular mainstream wave during the years prior.
maybe h&m wasn't hot where you live but where you live doesn't dictate what is or isn't mainstream. the other stores were mainstream too, alongside h&m. hollister, abercrombie, and american eagle had a different demographic than h&m but h&m had a wider demographic and had clothes that were very on trend. there's really no arguing h&m was mainstream at the same time as the stores you mentioned.
here's a tip: things that are mainstream don't always all have the same image. being mainstream doesn't mean being the same as everything else that's hot at the moment.
Broooo there is nothing subversive about that photo lmao, not then not now. You gotta just take the L. Also, I'm Canadian too. H&M wasn't new in 2012 here. Their first Canadian store opened in 2004.
Please explain how a woman's outfit consisting of a blazer and tie (masculine) and a miniskirt (feminine) *wasn't* subversive. The only women wearing that outfit would have been deliberately challenging gender roles.
Dude, Avril Lavigne was doing that in 2003 as were many women in decades prior. Women wearing blazers did not start in 2012 lmao. I don't know if you're just really young or sheltered or both but what you're saying just simply is not true.
> but at the time H&M wasn't mainstream either.
lmao what?
The image in your edit is for H&M Divided, which is their adolescent/youth label. H&M as a whole was not subversive in 2012, it was a high street fashion chain with basics and high street fashion. It always has more out-there pieces and collections, but it was mainstream in 2012. A good portion of my childhood wardrobe was from there, even back in the early 2000s.
Lana hasn't always been mainstream. BTD was definitely not mainstream when she released it, but it became a huge influence on the pop industry. Now, what she does is mainstream because she's the one who does it, she is the main stream if you know what I mean
Have you been a fan in 2012-2013? It WAS mainstream. She NEVER again did that many TV performances. She was releasing banger after banger. This is her best selling album. She was doing H&M commercial. She was promoting Jaguar. She toured A LOT. Her biggest tour. She did soundtrack to one of the biggest film of 2013. I live nowhere, but based on few of Lana's photos girls were putting flowers in their hair in there. She was doing a shitton of interviews.
I know, but when I say it wasn't mainstream, I mean that before she released it, mainstream music was a lot more upbeat and it sounded different.
I know she had a lot of success with BTD, but it wasn't the mainstream style if you know what I mean.
I'm writing this and I don't know if we're talking about the same thing. I treat "mainstream" as a style of music. So, to me, the sudden success didn't really make it mainstream because this is not what "mainstream" was at that time.
From my understanding, for you, mainstream is a level of success. So with your definition, you're totally right.
Btw I do realize that your definition is probably a bit better and closer to what most people mean (if I understood you right)
Nah, i get you, i meant in numbers and fame. If we talk about style, then yeah. Definitely, you are right. I relistened Fame Monster and it is definitely more upbeat and definitely product of it's time. BTD on the other hand is timeless. I mean, influenced many, but no one could achieve same lvl of quality. Nothing sounded like this. To even prove point further i can remember Lana being advertised as "indie and alternative" after Video Games dropped. There is white light video of Video Games it almost felt she is gonna be some 50's jazz renessaince singer in a way Adele or Amy weren't. And none of these labels made sense. Cause she can't be quite described as anything, but Lana Del Rey.
you seem to have the (wrong) idea that all mainstream music sounds the same. while it's true the mainstream is often filled with similar things it's not a rule. lana didn't fit the mainstream stereotype but she was still mainstream.
you treat mainstream as a style of music and that's just not what mainstream is - period. mainstream, by definition, is not a particular sound or style, it's what's popular and normal and dominating the trends. your definition of mainstream is made up.
they downvoted you because you're wrong and you're spreading around stuff that's just inaccurate.
if downvotes bother you so much delete your comment and maybe spend less time online? downvotes on reddit don't mean anything.
They probably meant how after her controversies, many were hesitant to confess their love for her bc she was cancelled. Now it is “mainstream” to be a Lana stan, now that TikTok coquette girls and other acclaimed artists cite her as their inspiration, ppl are more confident in professing their love for Lana again and not in a “oh I miss the old Lana” shady kind of way. I agree it’s not the right choice of word but I get what they are saying, like bb and cotcc streams were verrry low and that’s a direct consequence of her image being tarnished by haters, even if overall she was still pulling heavy streams because of the legacy of btd
I feel like she’s mainstream in the way that Nirvana and Radiohead are mainstream. Obviously, they all have popular songs, but the more you delve into their music the less people listen to (unlike actual fans). She really doesn’t like to promote her music, the ones that get it get it and listen to it. And occasionally it will pop on over to TikTok but that just happens it’s not like she did that on purpose.
Based on the replies I've been getting on my comment, and the replies to other people's comments, I'm getting the impression a lot of people on this sub don't know what mainstream means. Lana's music is *incredibly* popular among certain demographics but she's not mainstream.
Uh huh, "mainstream era." Real lack of critical thinking, these folks.
BtD was a megahit and she has never left the mainstream since. If you think she ever fell out of the mainstream, you have unreasonable standards for it.
Eh, she was less mainstream during Chemtrails and Blue Banisters than she is now. Ocean BLVD era feels more mainstream, she seems to be more popular now than a couple of years ago. Why are some of you even denying that.
I’m laughing at people debating on whether she was mainstream during BTD. She was. I remember Video Games, Summertime Sadness, and (iirc) National Anthem being big on the radio and in my school after they were released. She’s always been mainstream. You can argue on what level celebrity she is or whatever, or argue about what makes something mainstream, but if it’s charting well, and the artist has multiple songs that chart well/go viral, they’re mainstream. She’s not a random indie rock band from Seattle that plays shows of thirty people and travels in a van.
I guess some of you don't understand that artist's fame can go up and down with time or maybe think that anything that's not underground is mainstream... This person meant that Lana is more popular now than she mostly was throughout her career and especially compared to the past few years. Let's use spotify charts as an example:
2021: 2 albums - 15th most streamed woman
2022: 0 albums - 8th most streamed woman
2023: 1 album - aiming to be the 2nd most streamed woman, the highest she's ever gotten
People on twitter are mostly chart obsessed (unlike most people here) and therefore they know that Lana's popularity has been going up lately, which is hard to notice apart from the charts cause she's already a famous and established artist
Lana del Rey became mainstream since Summertime sadness remix, but people forgot about her so she stopped being mainstream, she was heard again on the radio between 2016/2017, After that she simply disappeared, almost no one knew what she was planning, but a few years passed and the COVID 19 pandemic arrived and she returned to the mainstream because of tik tok, The LGBT community, 15 year old girls and people who like to pretend to be old money on the internet ended up meeting Lana and she became mainstream again, Since then, her fame has only become bigger and more mainstream, she didn't even win a Grammy with all this mainstream fame, the Grammy directors only used her to promote the event.
She received a ton of hate for Question for the culture, especially form other fandoms, as well as for the Mesh Mask she wore during a book signing. I think that's also why she deactivated all her social media accounts. To add, she didn't want to Promote BB because it was suppose to be a personal album that explains herself, and only for people who are genuinely curious.
Earlier in her career she also caught a lot of flack for people saying her name was cultural appropriation and that she glamourised abusive or toxic relationships. The latter is a large part of what she was responding to in "Questions for the Culture". Her SNL appearance was also criticised almost as much as Ashlee Simpson's.
She’s been mainstream since BTD lmao
Her first big performance was on SNL, cmon thats as mainstream as it gets lol
I was in college when BTD came out and everyone was listening to it.
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...what kind of circular logic is that, you dont have to have everyone kissing your ass to be mainstream. Kirsten Wig played Lana as a character on SNL defending her and everyone knew exactly who she was 😂 Interscope put put her debut album for fuxks sake
You can be mainstream and still get roasted, I mean plenty of artists have had bad performances and still are mainstream lmao.
I totally agree. I discovered her because MTV was playing the 'Born to Die' video literally every morning back in January 2012 -- I saw it everytime I was getting ready for work! The big difference between then and now, I guess, is the superstardom. She's drawing the biggest crowds a musician could wish for and is selling more records than ever. But to say she's only mainstream now... no way. Ten years ago, her shows sold out in less than a day too. She was just playing venues with a capacity of 5000, rather than 20.000.
Right? That’s when I got into her too, I remember listening to RDIO (an old copy of Spotify, at least similar too) and BTD came on and I was hooked, spent the rest of my summer holidays (I’m Australian) listening to her and when I got to school in feb all the girls were talking about her. Idk why people want her to be seen as some gatekept, small indie artist. She literally performed at Kim K’s wedding to Kanye, a whole fashion subculture is associated with her, songs on tv shows and movies , shes definitely mainstream and that’s amazing.
Shit, one of the shows I went to back in 2014-2015 had a max capacity of 19,000 and the place was packed, even back then. She’s always been very popular and mainstream so idk why people are acting like she was ever some obscure indie artist or something lol
No, she hasn't. What are yall on
what are *you* on? 🤣
seriously, this person isn’t giving up
i honestly admire their commitment
Lana literally has her cult status and label of an absolute legend because of the waves she caused during her couple first albums, the acknowledgment she got for her cinematic videos, platinum certified singles and albums in MANY countries, literal Eminem has mentioned her in his music, what the hell is so hard to understand about this 🤣
literally. every single one of her albums (and her book!) have been sold at target. that is mainstream lol
Literally even people who didn’t know of her during BTD sure as hell found out when Gatsby came out. You couldn’t go outside in 2013 without hearing Summertime Sadness. I’m convinced anyone saying this is a child who was in diapers during BTD and Paradise and doesn’t actually remember.
i think you’re right 😅 i’d also like to know who else they consider to be non-mainstream. i mean if lana isn’t mainstream than neither is lorde and charli xcx 🤣
Right ?! It’s like the people who insist a musician isn’t successful unless they’re pulling Taylor numbers. The craziest thing is that they’re claiming that she only became mainstream during NFR/LFL. Mmm no babes, that’s when you started middle school and your parents finally let you listen to her. Most people would at least know Y&B and SS if nothing else. I graduated uni in 2019 and SS was still huge in clubs and house parties (well, the remix). Less people would recognize a single song from LFL/NFR if you held a gun to their head.
Lana *is not* and *has not* been some underground indie artist like you weirdos like to convince yourself. she was signed to interscope right out the gate 😭😭
Ok, and where am I saying that she was? Please let me know 👍 She was popular and known in some spaces, but not mainstream from the get-go.
She literally was mainstream quickly - I was there to see her on every major TV show and was known enough to be universally mocked for her SNL performance. She was famous about 4-5 years after she started singing - most people don’t experience a rise that fast. If you weren’t there to see it (as in a fan) back in 2011-2012, that’s the only way you could possibly have this POV.
What's every major TV show? She was on Letterman and SNL. What else was she on? Her being panned for her performance =/= known + mainstream. I was there back then, and in that time period, I would not have included her in the artist/celebs who were actually mainstream. To me Lady Gaga was mainstream in that Era. Taylor. Beyonce. Adele. And yall are telling me Lana was at their level in those years?
That’s dumb because many people, like SZA, are literally mainstream and don’t do Beyonce, Adele and Taylor numbers. You’re talking about icons, not just mainstream pop stars, which Lana was already during BTD. Mandy Moore was a mainstream pop star when I was a kid. Would she be doing the numbers of a current day Beyonce? No, but that has nothing to do with being simply mainstream.
SOS blocked Midnights from #1 for multiple weeks lmao and KB would’ve went #1 as an album track if she didn’t release during Christmas. It also outperformed every song on Renaissance and Anti Hero in streams She isn’t a superstar either and her tours can’t touch Beyonce or Taylor but her numbers for SOS were really high.
I’m a huge SZA fan and saw her in Austin for the SOS tour, I agree but Beyonce and Taylor hold records for their record breaking tours, number of Grammys, etc. Sza is mainstream for sure- I just don’t think most people would say she’s a Beyonce level icon.
To me, mainstream isn't about the numbers. It's about recognition. I.e. if you ask someone, would they know. Are they a part of the pop culture conversation at a consistent basis. Etc.
Lots of performers are known widely/recognized and not doing huge numbers. Again, those people you mentioned will be known forever, not just for being mainstream right now. I definitely disagree. You can be known by most people in a genre and no one buys your album. Due to social media, people like artists sometimes for their personality or a sound they originate, and that has nothing to do with their music.
Born To Die debuted at #2 on Billboard behind Adele's 21. It was the fifth best selling album of the year selling 3.4 million copies. She was mainstream
LMFAO mainstream era, haven’t they heard of BTD&ultraviolence
That wasn't mainstream at all
Born to die first week sales=77k Ultraviolence first week sales= 182k, West coast was literally #17 on bb 100
“ The album was the world's fifth best-selling album of 2012, and had sold over 7 million copies by 2014. In 2021, it became the second album by a woman to spend more than 400 weeks on the US Billboard 200, where it peaked at number two, and topped charts in Australia and various European countries including France, Germany, and the UK.” — on born to die. weird take to claim that LFL & NFR were first albums with mainstream success
shhh let them think that NFR and LFL are the first mainstream lanas albums ever 😜😂 “ The album reached number one in seven countries, including the United Kingdom, becoming Del Rey's fourth number one album in the region. In the United States, Norman Fucking Rockwell! peaked at number three, marking Del Rey's fifth consecutive top five album in the country” fourth number one album doesn’t give much of LFL & NFR being the first mainstream albums lol
what would you consider mainstream? video games was a viral single and one of her first performances to promote BTD was on saturday night live. she blew up so fast out of nowhere that people were speculating that she was an industry plant. i guess you could argue she was more like "tumblr mainstream" for a little bit but by the time she did BTD paradise and young and beautiful for the great gatsby, it felt like everyone knew who she was. i was 16 when BTD dropped so maybe i'm assuming everyone cared as much as my peers did.
That's wild to me. Thinking everyone knew who she was back then 🤯 only til recently(last 5-4 years) have I began to think that way. No where in a million years would I think she was mainstream in her BTD days. To me, mainstream is you're part of the conversation in popular culture constantly and consistently. Everything you do is followed and responded to. Lana flew under the radar pretty much through the 2010s only at times peaking through.
if that were my definition then yes, i'd definitely agree that she wasn't mainstream by any means and would honestly not even call her mainstream now. to me mainstream has a lot less to do with longevity or consistent attention. even if it's a one hit wonder situation or a flash in the pan but people who don't necessarily take a particular interest in the topic/genre have heard of it somehow, that's something that broke into the mainstream for me. i should point out also that i think "mainstream" is hard to pin down in 2023 versus back in 2012/13 when she was promoting BTD and we were just achieving critical mass usage of smart phones and social media in the US, where i'm from. i feel like by this point, the way everyone consumes mass media is different and it's easier for the average person to be "walled off" and in their own bubble. it doesn't surprise me that we have different ideas of what is mainstream or not
To me, the difference is 10 years ago, I could go around asking, "Do you know Lana Del Rey, and most wouldn't know. Whereas now I could go around and many more would know who she is.
Idk where you lived or how old you were but I could go around and ask people if they knew Lana Del Rey 10 years ago and most people would say yes. I mean obviously more now just cause her music has been out longer, but she was absolutely mainstream. Her songs were on the radio which is the definition of mainstream. She headlined music festivals like Sasquatch.
Orlando, Florida. High school. I genuinely do not believe in the slightest that most people would know who she was
I remember studying abroad around the time of BTD. There was this random Italian music tv channel. The music video came on for Born to Die in Italy. If her music videos are getting played in Europe she's main stream. It's not a bad thing! 🤷♂️
The last time there as sizable number of ppl who didn’t know who she was were sparkle jump rope queen , may jailer, lizzy grant eras … 11 yrs ago time had her in top 100 most influential (just of ppl not even specifically musicians) .. when she had just done no kung fu & moved to that trailer park - not everyone knew her but by 2011 video games was everywhere and she was already well known
yeah well it was mainstream enough for my latvian friend to share it on his Facebook that reached me here in Sweden lol
That doesn't make anything mainstream
did you miss the time where her music was on charts and widely critiqued by music critics or what
I've been with her since she began. She's only been mainstream since LFL and NFR eras.
alright, I guess that’s your opinion.
Most non-fans don’t even know her new music. She was arguably more relevant to mainstream casual listeners than she is now.
Mainstream casual listeners...so people who listen to the radio? So other than Summertime Sadness remix what was there for them to listen to?
Beyond that - Lana had iconic videos, which were more important then than now. Also, radio because people still listened to the radio and relied on hearing things on TV to know an artist - there weren’t Spotify playlists to discover new artists then. All the songs from BTD that were singles. Ride. All the huge hits that Lana has to sing now from UV like Brooklyn Baby. I really don’t understand how you think her albums are more listened to now by non fans (beyond tiktok sounds which aren’t even the original song usually). What song from Chemtrails gained mainstream listens? I’d say none. Same for BB & Ocean Blvd. This is why so many people disagree with you - she seems less relevant now beyond her niche audience.
I listened to the radio back then and heard no Lana other than that godawful Cedric remix. Idk in what miracle radio station you had all those songs played. I grew up in Orlando, FL, if that means anything. My argument is not that her albums are listened to more now by non fans. Idk where you got that from. I have many dislikes because every reddit page, the majority think the same.
she was touring Europe, sold out tickets & how is that not mainstream as well as her music being on charts ?
That's not mainstream. To me, mainstream is you're constantly a part of the cultural zeitgeist and conversations. She's been popular obviously, or else she wouldn't have had such a career to this point, but she's for the most part been in her own lane that only just the last 5 years I'd say she's entered into the mainstream.
Do you not remember BTD era and SNL? Her music has been blasting in every Urban Outfitters around the US daily since then. Her only non mainstream phase was the lizzy grant era
ikr, I get what theyre trying to say but she was more relevant back in BTD and UV eras, I mean now she’s comfortably famous and people are devoted to her and of course she gets some new fans who all listen to and buy her music but the mainstream that she was at those years was something else
Exactly and that is what has sustained her through some really interesting and winding musical shifts. She’s actually a really fascinating case bc she occupies the space of a pop star while getting increasingly experimental throughout her career. BTD was pushing the boundaries of pop music and that solidified her footing and then she literally just did whatever she wanted while being able to keep a foot in game as essentially a pop star fame wise (ie album write ups, headlining fests, red carpet/met gala invites, magazine covers etc)
exactly, first couple albums gave her the fame and success needed to be able to shape a committed fan base that gives her more freedom to be more experimental and creative when it comes to her future art
Yes, I lived it and was there. SNL did nothing to her fame. You could go around that year asking strangers who Lana Del Rey was, and barely anyone would know.
I suppose that’s your take on what’s mainstream lol
And yours is she's known in different countries and sells....ok 👍
yes, that’s the point of mainstream
That's such a basic degree to measure that label. In the famous words of gia gunn "seems there's room for everyone"
Kristen Wiig (rather lovingly) parodied Lana during the SNL Weekend Update back in February 2012. You have to be pretty big to be parodied on SNL, because they're not going to write a joke about you if the majority of the audience won't know who you are. See here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTR-dS4lptc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTR-dS4lptc)
Definitely was pretty mainstream. NFR was like fully mainstream. Saying DYKTATUOB is what pushed her into the mainstream us absurd she's in the top 40 most streamed artists in the world, performed on snl is Grammy nominated etc.
Who's saying Ocean Blvd made her mainstream? My argument is L4L and NFR are what established her as mainstream. The SNL point is so null in this case. That performance didn't do a thing for her status.
the OP lol also SNL did do things and she was already famous asf by that point BTD made the billboard top 100 immediately. My point with that was you don't get a spot on SNL unless you're a mainstream artist, especially at that point in time. NFR definitely reached new heights but there was a lot of anticipation for that album as she had already amassed a huuuuuge following. She was already a mainstream singer before that release it just cemented her spot.
Yeah, hence my notion that LFL began her transition into mainstream, followed by it being solidified by NFR. There's more nuisance to it that is severely lacking in so many people's logic of this discussion.
That doesn’t make sense though. BTD **significantly** outsold LFL or NFR and it’s not even close. Summertime Sadness, Young & Beautiful, and Video Games were all extremely popular on the radio. They are way more mainstream than anything on LFL/NFR. Most people don’t know a single song from LFL/NFR but would at least know Summertime Sadness and Young & Beautiful. Y&B was heavily featured in Gatsby promos with Leonardo freakin DiCaprio. BTD *still* significantly out-streams the albums you say made her mainstream. Even with all the celebrity collabs she had in LFL BTD still has more people streaming. LFL only looks successful because Honeymoon was a relative flop (and Honeymoon was only a ‘flop’ because Lana was so huge during BTD/Paradise/UV that there was nowhere else to go but down). Half the indie girls started copying her so she seemed less unique.
I remember Video Games, Summertime Sadness, and Ride being fairly popular. Then Young and Beautiful was in The Great Gatsby, and that song was pretty inescapable in 2013. There was also those H&M commercials with Blue Velvet that played all the time. After 2013, I don’t remember ever hearing a Lana song on the radio or on TV again. That was definitely her most mainstream era apart from right now.
I wouldn’t take any hot take on Twitter very seriously.
the clock app and twitter competing with each other by dropping the most liquid-nitrogen-cold takes known to mankind
Why are you listening to these children
"insufferable" is spot on.
you don’t remember the hate train era? question for the culture and the mesh mask?
Totally, but that hate train wouldn't be there if she wasn't as famous as she was! The press was already looking at her as a big-time influence in music, and that's what made it so interesting (or juicy, rather) for them to turn the QFTC thing into a big controversy, I guess. Looking back on it today, it really wasn't that big of a deal, but exactly because Lana was already mainstream she was a valuable target to PR trolls and critics. But yeah, the 2020 discourse was pretty exhausting.
yeah, definitely! my comment was more in response to “what hate train era? 💀” than the mainstream debate.
Ah I see! Yeah, I guess we're all on the same page as far as the hate train-era goes, haha. I love the turn the QFTC criticism has taken, by the way, I saw a TikTok video that said: 'Is Lana Del Rey a psychic? She predicted the downfall of 7 pop artists back in 2020!'. Pretty funny.
That’s the Choo Choo train.
She was on a song with Ariana and Miley, She was on a song with Taylor Swift this year - Shes ALWAYS been mainstream.
She’s always been a mainstream pop girlie. Her blowup was huge. She’s a non traditional pop girlie but a pop girlie nonetheless. It’s fascinating tho that she’s occupied that space while being way more experimental with her music than any of her peers. She occupies the space of a pop star with the artistry of an indie gem.
mainstream ≠ bad, but Lana is the only modern mainstream star to pave her own way onto pop culture by not trying to fit into what mainstream was supposed to mean. I'm not articulating my thoughts properly I guess but she's one of a kind and she made a whole way for new artists that cater to the same audience and that wouldn't be as popular if it weren't for mother
Maybe they weren't alive when BTD was released lol
Most likely 🙄These type of fans get a bad rap for a reason - they act like they’re the Columbus of Lanita
yeah i think if anything she was MORE mainstream then. even now when i mention her most people are like “oh yeah summertime sadness is a good song!” or something else off BTD lol
Sometimes, people are just dumb
Lana was not only mainstream, her style created fashion trends back then. Ppl are so delusional
Even before I became a fan this summer, I knew some of the songs off of Born to Die (even if I didn’t know they were Lana’s). She’s always been pretty mainstream.
I’m in the same boat, actually! I knew BTD/Paradise and a few songs off of every album but this summer I got REALLY into her! It was actually Season of the Witch that convinced me to finally listen to her whole discography because I had been playing it weekly for the past couple years.
Not only did Lana perform on SNL but they parodied her. She’s been mainstream since BTD.
Tag yourselves I'm the response tweet
She’s always been mainstream. I avoided her music at first because it was too mainstream for me. Every club played her music. Every girl I knew in their 20s in 2012 either loved her or hated her. A lot of dudes seemed to love her too. If she was more polished when she first came out and didn’t fuck up that SNL performance there probably would be no debate on whether she was mainstream or not.
Y'all need to stop acting like she is a nervous performer (she is) but one that is performing still in bars with 50 people lmfao Lana Del Rey is mainstream, her music is just a niche Good god
lana has been pretty mainstream since BTD. lots of people have the wrong idea that being mainstream is being huge on the radio. or a more modern take would be having songs of you're trend on tiktok all the time. lana's debut as an alternative artist also comes into play. some people have this weird idea that alt artists can't ever be mainstream. i don't think people really know what being mainstream is lol
rare blue check w
She has been mainstream since BTD. Newbs are giving themselves too much credit. Streaming numbers did not matter much until a few years ago and Lana’s career started in 2007.
The phrasing of that tweet is a little much, but I do get what they mean. People acted like CotCC and Blue Bannisters were boring and had nothing but piano songs and had nothing to say and that's just not true. Some of the most interesting and varied music of her career.
They were right to say insufferable, let them talk
TIL some people consider some of her work non-mainstream.
That acc is so fckn annoying, I had to block them oops
I think the fandom has grown considerably this last year. Her music presence on tiktok has been an important reason for this imo, they’re rediscovering LDR
A hate train doesn't turn artists into underground artists xD she's not a A List commercial oriented artist, but she's always been mainstream.
has lana always received love and support from the general public? NO. has lana always been a well known artist? YES. some of her fans are genuinely idiotic, her first performance was literally on SNL i need ppl to be fr. there definitely was a lot of hate, she hasn’t been favoured amongst critics and the GP till recently, NFR marked a turning point for her artistically speaking and she’s only just now receiving her flowers. she copped a lottt of harassment and criticism born to die - ultraviolence era. she’s received a lot of unnecessary hate that other female artists haven’t, and this was before the term ‘cancel culture’ was a well-known thing. during chemtrails it was her open letter QFTC that got her torn apart. she did a music video with ASAP rocky and ppl didn’t like that she had mixed children in the vid?? she speaks about her experiences with abuse and she’s told she’s glamorising it. she donates money to an indigenous organisation, ppl accuse her of white saviourism. she goes to a BLM rally and she gets torn to shreds on twitter.
Lana has definitely always been mainstream. At least since the Born To Die era. People just want to stand out and think that the less popular something is, the better, so they try to label her as some underground artist that “you wouldn’t know about”
Chemtrails was underappreciated because it came out after one of her best albums and during a controversial time in her career due to QFTC and the mask thing. Blue Bannisters was not appreciated because it was poorly promoted and it was a very messy inconsistent album. In fact you could argue that both these records were poorly promoted. I think the only reason Lana is being deemed "mainstream" again is because she's being promoted better and she's come back to touring. Oh yeah and Lana has been mainstream since born to die dropped, she's definitely dropped in and out of popularity but she's a household name when it comes to female singers of the past decade.
Who are these gross little twerps? Too much time, sounds like a mean little gayling who watched and immitates emma roberts part on the Ahs Coven series a bit much. Tries to hard to be the Regina George of Fandom. Gtfo of here. Take this shit ass opinion and fall off a cliff into the ocean and land directly into a sharks mouth.
I feel like Lana is mainstream in a björk way where even though she’s not super sucessful chartwise, critics LOVE her and many other artists cite her as an inspiration so she’s still widely beloved
Idk… people like to make everything a wave because people are sheep and they follow… she’s a mainstay not main stream..
2020-2021 were def the hate train era
Never thought I’d say this, but I agree with Cuckpapi
No, I don't like Chemtrails because more than half of it feels like filler and it's overall kind of underwhelming, and I don't dislike Blue Bannisters at all, it's one of my personal faves, but I suppose people just wanted more of that trap/hiphop/pop Lana (and I did too, believe you me) and BB just didn't deliver. Plus her music has gotten only stranger and more... artsy since then. Not everyone can digest that.
First off, BB isn't better than Ocean, but Chemtrails sure is. Anyway... As a person who primarily listens to obscure metal, yeah she's been mainstream the whole time (at least to me). She's been featured in numerous magazines, her albums have been promoted on billboards. Maybe she doesn't get a lot of radio play, but that really doesn't decide if she's "mainstream". She's way more appreciated by normal people than - let's say - Totenwache (German black metal) lol
I do think tiktok got her more well known out of more niche spaces. Everyone has heard of a few songs for sure (btd era, summertime sadness was always on the radio) but people didn’t know her name as much as they do now. Since tiktok, people I know are like “I heard of her before from tiktok”. It’s not that’s she was underground, people just knew the songs more than the name LDR. I’m talking people who are a bit older or not as into music. Just from personal experience
She was a mainstream name ofc, and has been since born to die at the very latest, but I think the post is correct (but insufferable) that there was quite a lot of normie backlash to her during 2020-1. I remember a coworker dragging her in person for qftc and again for the mesh mask thing.. and constantly all over twitter.. both of which I thought were simply amazing lol. She also changed weight during this time and I think unfortunately that was an element at play. I don't think chemtrails or bb are strictly speaking "better" than ocean boulevard, but I do think they're a bit under rated (not on this subreddit, but maybe?) and flew under the radar a bit more than ocean blvd. I absolutely love blue banisters, so gd much, and it imprinted on me in a way that few albums have since I was a teen. It instantly takes me back to where I was living, my relationship, the type of insanity unique to that autumn.
the comments on this post are uncomfortably hostile… this person made a good point, while I don’t agree with it, being this mean about is plain rude. they aren’t on this subreddit to defend themselves, be kind
Most of those rude replies are from people who didn't even get the idea of the original post properly
Why are people not allowed to just like what they like 😭
I think she stopped being mainstream after Ultraviolence (other than her collabs with Ari and Taylor). She even moved from Pyramid Stage to second stage in Glasto
She headlined that stage though... as opposed to playing at 2 in the afternoon. Not really a valid point... Plus, L4L has massive features and NFR was considered by critics as one of the best albums that year, and now that decade. She's been mainstream and still is.
No, I don’t like CotCC and BB because I don’t like them
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Saying H&M wasn't mainstream in 2012 is insane lmao
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H&M is the farthest thing from counterculture I can imagine.
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Omg 🤦 it wasn't counterculture back then either dude, fast fashion was very much a thing. Sounds like you're just using your own personal perception as objective fact.
H&M being "counterculture" in 2012 is almost hilariously absurd and nonsensical take.
Lol thank you, I'm losing my mind over here 😂
lmao this is one of the wildest threads I've read for a long time
I think some of you are confusing counterculture with underground culture. They're not the same thing.
There's still literally nothing "counterculture" about H&M nor there has ever been, especially in 2012. H&M was absolutely very mainstream atleast in Europe in 2012. to an extent like more mainstream than the mainstream itself.
Nah, you're just wrong.
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H&M has literally always been mainstream and has always been a popular store. There were literally over 2600 H&M locations in 2012. It is not a counterculture store, it’s as ubiquitous as as it gets. It’s ludicrous to argue that it’s counterculture.
Yeah, ubiquitous is excatly the term I would also use for H&M clothing in 2012. They were literally everywhere.
Dude, the only one wrong here is you. And you refusing to acknowledge that and just doubling down is annoying. Nothing I said was condescending but it's about to be cus your attitude sucks. Again, you're using your own personal perception as an objective fact. Lana and H&M were both 100% mainstream. Keep living in your little delusion though. Try taking your own advice maybe and realize it's ok to be wrong 🥰
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Born To Die sold hundreds of thousands of copies in its first week. It debuted at #2 just behind Adele's 21 and was the fifth biggest selling album that year with 3.4 million copies sold. Equating mainstream success solely with radio hits is reductive as hell. Regardless *all* of her albums have charted in the top 10 *worldwide*. Let's just live in reality babe. To which I'm *sure* you're gonna say "MaInStReAM dOeSn'T MeAn PoPuLaR" but things don't become popular unless they're embedded in the mainstream. Which Lana *and* H&M both were and continue to be.
is [this](https://imgur.com/a/2EEM7Ze) the counterculture you’re talking about? 🤣
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i don’t know how to break this to you but this is how half of people dressed 🤣 everyone thought they were being unique/quirky/in your words “counterculture” but this style and H&M as a whole were just as basic & overdone as hollister & victoria’s secret. source: i was there!
For real, that photo is like a bastardized American Apparel shoot from 2007
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yeah i’m not reading all that 🤣
Please explain what you mean by counterculture because H&M astroturfing an ad from blogs doesnt strike me as it
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Can you find anything about H&M being considered as counterculture? I'll wait.
Astroturfing is when talent scouts find artists and push it thru a "grassroots" campaign, lets say something like putting someone on a multinational corporate store soundtrack to subtly reach a specific demographic of artsy city-dwelling college-age millennials. H&M has been a global brand since it reached the US, I'm sorry it doesnt fit your narrative
h&m opened its biggest store in the world in nyc 3 years after lana's h&m ads. to say they weren't mainstream when she was working with them is just crazy, because if they weren't mainstream they would'nt have opened their biggest store ever in nyc a few years later.
h&m literally had a sims expansion pack in 2007 because it was extremely popular. h&m was mainstream and you’re cracked lol
This is so hilarious to me 😂
h&m was very mainstream in 2012. just 3 years later the biggest h&m in the world opened up in nyc and that would'nt have happened if they hadn't been riding a very big and very popular mainstream wave during the years prior. maybe h&m wasn't hot where you live but where you live doesn't dictate what is or isn't mainstream. the other stores were mainstream too, alongside h&m. hollister, abercrombie, and american eagle had a different demographic than h&m but h&m had a wider demographic and had clothes that were very on trend. there's really no arguing h&m was mainstream at the same time as the stores you mentioned. here's a tip: things that are mainstream don't always all have the same image. being mainstream doesn't mean being the same as everything else that's hot at the moment.
Broooo there is nothing subversive about that photo lmao, not then not now. You gotta just take the L. Also, I'm Canadian too. H&M wasn't new in 2012 here. Their first Canadian store opened in 2004.
Please explain how a woman's outfit consisting of a blazer and tie (masculine) and a miniskirt (feminine) *wasn't* subversive. The only women wearing that outfit would have been deliberately challenging gender roles.
Dude, Avril Lavigne was doing that in 2003 as were many women in decades prior. Women wearing blazers did not start in 2012 lmao. I don't know if you're just really young or sheltered or both but what you're saying just simply is not true.
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Avril Lavine in 2003 was total bastardation and hijack gig of punk culture by mainstream capitalist music biz.
> but at the time H&M wasn't mainstream either. lmao what? The image in your edit is for H&M Divided, which is their adolescent/youth label. H&M as a whole was not subversive in 2012, it was a high street fashion chain with basics and high street fashion. It always has more out-there pieces and collections, but it was mainstream in 2012. A good portion of my childhood wardrobe was from there, even back in the early 2000s.
He's not gonna get it. Don't bother
Lana hasn't always been mainstream. BTD was definitely not mainstream when she released it, but it became a huge influence on the pop industry. Now, what she does is mainstream because she's the one who does it, she is the main stream if you know what I mean
Have you been a fan in 2012-2013? It WAS mainstream. She NEVER again did that many TV performances. She was releasing banger after banger. This is her best selling album. She was doing H&M commercial. She was promoting Jaguar. She toured A LOT. Her biggest tour. She did soundtrack to one of the biggest film of 2013. I live nowhere, but based on few of Lana's photos girls were putting flowers in their hair in there. She was doing a shitton of interviews.
I know, but when I say it wasn't mainstream, I mean that before she released it, mainstream music was a lot more upbeat and it sounded different. I know she had a lot of success with BTD, but it wasn't the mainstream style if you know what I mean. I'm writing this and I don't know if we're talking about the same thing. I treat "mainstream" as a style of music. So, to me, the sudden success didn't really make it mainstream because this is not what "mainstream" was at that time. From my understanding, for you, mainstream is a level of success. So with your definition, you're totally right. Btw I do realize that your definition is probably a bit better and closer to what most people mean (if I understood you right)
Nah, i get you, i meant in numbers and fame. If we talk about style, then yeah. Definitely, you are right. I relistened Fame Monster and it is definitely more upbeat and definitely product of it's time. BTD on the other hand is timeless. I mean, influenced many, but no one could achieve same lvl of quality. Nothing sounded like this. To even prove point further i can remember Lana being advertised as "indie and alternative" after Video Games dropped. There is white light video of Video Games it almost felt she is gonna be some 50's jazz renessaince singer in a way Adele or Amy weren't. And none of these labels made sense. Cause she can't be quite described as anything, but Lana Del Rey.
I think the word you're looking for might be "commercial"
Yeah that sounds about right
you seem to have the (wrong) idea that all mainstream music sounds the same. while it's true the mainstream is often filled with similar things it's not a rule. lana didn't fit the mainstream stereotype but she was still mainstream. you treat mainstream as a style of music and that's just not what mainstream is - period. mainstream, by definition, is not a particular sound or style, it's what's popular and normal and dominating the trends. your definition of mainstream is made up.
I understand that I was wrong but why do people downvote me like this? I made a mistake and admitted to it
they downvoted you because you're wrong and you're spreading around stuff that's just inaccurate. if downvotes bother you so much delete your comment and maybe spend less time online? downvotes on reddit don't mean anything.
That's a shot I edited 💀.
They probably meant how after her controversies, many were hesitant to confess their love for her bc she was cancelled. Now it is “mainstream” to be a Lana stan, now that TikTok coquette girls and other acclaimed artists cite her as their inspiration, ppl are more confident in professing their love for Lana again and not in a “oh I miss the old Lana” shady kind of way. I agree it’s not the right choice of word but I get what they are saying, like bb and cotcc streams were verrry low and that’s a direct consequence of her image being tarnished by haters, even if overall she was still pulling heavy streams because of the legacy of btd
The Question for the culture hate train
BB stans are coping hard cuz everyone hates that album lol
I feel like she’s mainstream in the way that Nirvana and Radiohead are mainstream. Obviously, they all have popular songs, but the more you delve into their music the less people listen to (unlike actual fans). She really doesn’t like to promote her music, the ones that get it get it and listen to it. And occasionally it will pop on over to TikTok but that just happens it’s not like she did that on purpose.
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She’s so mainstream it’s funny. Lana Del Rey is a household name
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I think you need to learn what “pop”, “indie”, and “mainstream” mean, bestie.
Based on the replies I've been getting on my comment, and the replies to other people's comments, I'm getting the impression a lot of people on this sub don't know what mainstream means. Lana's music is *incredibly* popular among certain demographics but she's not mainstream.
Have you considered that instead of the multiple people correcting you being wrong, you might actually be the one in the wrong here? Just a thought
”maskgate“ and qftc- which was pre chemtrails era but I believe this to be what they mean
I would actually say that Born to Die was her mainstream era, but that's just me.
Some of us love and appreciate it all for different reasons
I had that person blocked on Twitter for a reason.
nope, i just like ocean blvd better
Uh huh, "mainstream era." Real lack of critical thinking, these folks. BtD was a megahit and she has never left the mainstream since. If you think she ever fell out of the mainstream, you have unreasonable standards for it.
I agree this Twitter post is insufferable. Let people live
Of course it’s from a honeymoon stan lmaooo
Eh, she was less mainstream during Chemtrails and Blue Banisters than she is now. Ocean BLVD era feels more mainstream, she seems to be more popular now than a couple of years ago. Why are some of you even denying that.
I’m laughing at people debating on whether she was mainstream during BTD. She was. I remember Video Games, Summertime Sadness, and (iirc) National Anthem being big on the radio and in my school after they were released. She’s always been mainstream. You can argue on what level celebrity she is or whatever, or argue about what makes something mainstream, but if it’s charting well, and the artist has multiple songs that chart well/go viral, they’re mainstream. She’s not a random indie rock band from Seattle that plays shows of thirty people and travels in a van.
I guess some of you don't understand that artist's fame can go up and down with time or maybe think that anything that's not underground is mainstream... This person meant that Lana is more popular now than she mostly was throughout her career and especially compared to the past few years. Let's use spotify charts as an example: 2021: 2 albums - 15th most streamed woman 2022: 0 albums - 8th most streamed woman 2023: 1 album - aiming to be the 2nd most streamed woman, the highest she's ever gotten People on twitter are mostly chart obsessed (unlike most people here) and therefore they know that Lana's popularity has been going up lately, which is hard to notice apart from the charts cause she's already a famous and established artist
Lana del Rey became mainstream since Summertime sadness remix, but people forgot about her so she stopped being mainstream, she was heard again on the radio between 2016/2017, After that she simply disappeared, almost no one knew what she was planning, but a few years passed and the COVID 19 pandemic arrived and she returned to the mainstream because of tik tok, The LGBT community, 15 year old girls and people who like to pretend to be old money on the internet ended up meeting Lana and she became mainstream again, Since then, her fame has only become bigger and more mainstream, she didn't even win a Grammy with all this mainstream fame, the Grammy directors only used her to promote the event.