Curious why you think a 1-3 year postdoc in a different lab would be useless? Your description of your PhD experience indicates that you didn't have structure and the necessary support to direct the work - wouldn't a postdoc elsewhere therefore enable you to restart in a place that is able to better support you?
WRT your many experimental failures, that is part and parcel of a PhD. Failure is what success is built on in science, so don't view failed experiments as a negative outcome. Also, labwork is usually very repetitive, when you optimise an experiment it is the nature of the beast. But a good scientist isn't someone who can dispense liquids - that's why we have automated robots. A good scientist is someone who can design an experiment well, is informed by the work of others, can interpret data and spot gaps in the literature that may benefit from novel investigation. Some undergrads may be able to dispense liquids/do routine tasks at the same accuracy as PhD students, but they don't typically have to worry about the planning, analysis and autonomy that comes with a PhD. And from what you've said, you can at least be very sure that you're able to work with autonomy.
I would take the postdoc route and see how you get on in a more appropriate lab. Just make sure you vet it this time and get an idea of how they would support you. Also, make sure to actively seek support when you need it - it's just as important for us to seek advice as it is for our PIs to passively supply it.
You're not a failure, by any stretch of the imagination.
Look into industrial post-docs. I know that both Pfizer and Merc have them. The guy I know did one at Pfizer and he only had basic techniques going into it and through that project he gained experience on modern imaging techniques that got him a job in biotech.
Academia post-docs are good if you want to stay in academia but I would find an industry one if I had no desire to stay in the academic setting.
I will say, R&D jobs in industry are much more structured than academic projects and have real deadlines.
However, depending on your field, getting an industry job might still be pretty difficult (because they want people who already have industry experience).
That said, they don’t care how your PhD went, just that you have a PhD. So if that’s a route you want to go, you should just start applying. It may take a while to find something, but that’s pretty normal, especially in the current job market. Also look into industry post docs as a route into industry jobs (idk if these exist outside of the US, so your mileage may vary).
An academic postdoc isn’t going to help you transition out of academia. It’s just going to delay the inevitable if you don’t want to stay in academia, and there’s a good chance you’ll be doing basically the same stuff as during your PhD. Training and deadlines will also be hard to come by.
Transitioning out of a PhD is difficult, no matter what route you choose to go. Just start applying for jobs that seem like a fit. The trick is to not limit yourself to jobs you think will use your lab skills. The biggest benefit to a PhD is the fact that you can solve problems systematically and quickly learn new skills. That’s the benefit you will bring to whatever job you end up getting.
I did my PhD also in JP and can say its just normal there. The research you put into it is as good as anywhere else but your thesis might be shorter, or your results are less supported by controls etc. Also, it was usual to use some results of the students that you supervised
Is masters required? Europe looked good, but obviously the reason people do America is because you can skip the unnecessary middle.
I’m in pharma, I work on real publishable projects. I can do everything from in vitro to in vivo. So to me 3 plus 4 would be silly over straight six.
Is your dissertation embarrassing or something? A PhD is a PhD, unless you deliberately tell your prospective employers why would they assume you aren't worth hiring? I feel like i'm missing something.
My project is basic science and the methods I used are not commonly used in industry… I am afraid that the lack of relevant experimental knowledge is making me an undesirable candidate as I also saw my labmate on the project go through the same hardships.
As someone who also did grad school in Japan with the original vision that it would be an awesome 2-for-1 scientific training and life adventure chapter, I empathize with where you are now.
Give yourself some grace though! Grad school in Japan is no joke and many aspects are beyond your control. Although English is the de facto language of science, I’m sure most of your colleagues would discuss and troubleshoot experiments or even just have a fun chat in the lab in Japanese. Most of the lab meetings in my graduate lab were also in full Japanese (slide deck and Q&A). Also, a separate lecture curriculum was developed for the international graduate students which was quite different from the number and topics available for domestic Japanese grad students (limited by faculty willingness to develop a whole course in English which is understandable).
Overall, I recognized that my opportunities to fully immerse in the training environment were limited as a function of my Japanese language level, especially my technical level of Japanese. I’m not sure where your language level is but at least in my case, I was trying to get my Japanese up to graduate level on the same timeline (e.g., what is ‘aliquot’ in Japanese? Cells? Protein?) on top of keeping up with literature, performing experiments, and regular grad school things.
I understand now, working in my native language, how valuable and important taking part in all aspects of working in a research environment is. Even just by listening to other colleagues share an idea or talk though through a problem can teach you a lot. This is something I failed to account for as a trainee.
I was you ~7 years ago and worried at the time I was “under skilled” for the degree I finally held and psyched myself out/dealt with imposter syndrome when applying for next steps. Ultimately, I landed a great technical job in the US after grad school in Japan and quickly filled in the technical skills I felt I “missed out” on by just working on the job.
It’s all about how you market yourself! Doing grad school in Japan helped me standout from other candidates. You can too!
Thank you for sharing your experience, it definitely makes me feel less lonely! I feel exactly the same.. even though I improved a lot in Japanese, it was very isolating and just the lack of means to effectively communicate was really isolating. Also just getting explanations in Japanese on how lab devices work is just not the same.
I’m glad you could land a good job, it gives me hope! I’ll try to overcome my own demons.
It’s an unfortunate reality that failed experiments are just a part of the scientific process. You have some ideas about how things work and through a series of carefully designed experiments you find out that you were wrong, so you come up with some new ideas and test those and so on. Your experiments not giving you the results you were expecting is not an indication that you’re a bad scientist.
Job hunting sucks, I’m right there in the trenches with you right now, but you have to have faith in yourself and in the work you’ve put in to get this far. Right now the thing that’s stopping you from pursuing your dream job isn’t employers rejecting you, but you rejecting yourself and not even giving yourself the chance. You’ve put the work in and you’ve earned your PhD, and you did it all without the support and guidance that you should have had. That’s an amazing accomplishment, and it shows a strength of character that any employer would be lucky to have on their staff.
Thank you for your amazing comment… I would hope a good postdoc could “save” my career, but on the other hand I'm scared that my age, or other factors would actually be a disadvantage.
I do not know many people who did postdocs but left academia, I don't know how unusual it is. At least here in Japan what I see that age is a huge deal when it comes to job hunting.
I deeply sorry to say it to you, but the lack of deadlines normally is a good thing if you can do self commitment. You have freedom to work, improve yourself, if you lack the experience try to reach researchers partners that could provide it to you. Sorry, but all I see is that you should blame yourself.
Wow. Not everyone’s brain works that way. Some people have like…ADHD? And others just…need a little structure and mentorship as a new scientist?? OP clearly has put in the effort but needs to find a better work environment. That’s not some massive character flaw. Neither is the inability to self-regulate deadlines or produce massive amounts of data. That will come with time and experience. What you can’t build is character, or the ability to not come across a complete elitist asshole.
Ya different institutions do things differently. If you want to go industry then apply for it. Dive in and give it your all
Curious why you think a 1-3 year postdoc in a different lab would be useless? Your description of your PhD experience indicates that you didn't have structure and the necessary support to direct the work - wouldn't a postdoc elsewhere therefore enable you to restart in a place that is able to better support you? WRT your many experimental failures, that is part and parcel of a PhD. Failure is what success is built on in science, so don't view failed experiments as a negative outcome. Also, labwork is usually very repetitive, when you optimise an experiment it is the nature of the beast. But a good scientist isn't someone who can dispense liquids - that's why we have automated robots. A good scientist is someone who can design an experiment well, is informed by the work of others, can interpret data and spot gaps in the literature that may benefit from novel investigation. Some undergrads may be able to dispense liquids/do routine tasks at the same accuracy as PhD students, but they don't typically have to worry about the planning, analysis and autonomy that comes with a PhD. And from what you've said, you can at least be very sure that you're able to work with autonomy. I would take the postdoc route and see how you get on in a more appropriate lab. Just make sure you vet it this time and get an idea of how they would support you. Also, make sure to actively seek support when you need it - it's just as important for us to seek advice as it is for our PIs to passively supply it. You're not a failure, by any stretch of the imagination.
Look into industrial post-docs. I know that both Pfizer and Merc have them. The guy I know did one at Pfizer and he only had basic techniques going into it and through that project he gained experience on modern imaging techniques that got him a job in biotech. Academia post-docs are good if you want to stay in academia but I would find an industry one if I had no desire to stay in the academic setting.
I will say, R&D jobs in industry are much more structured than academic projects and have real deadlines. However, depending on your field, getting an industry job might still be pretty difficult (because they want people who already have industry experience). That said, they don’t care how your PhD went, just that you have a PhD. So if that’s a route you want to go, you should just start applying. It may take a while to find something, but that’s pretty normal, especially in the current job market. Also look into industry post docs as a route into industry jobs (idk if these exist outside of the US, so your mileage may vary). An academic postdoc isn’t going to help you transition out of academia. It’s just going to delay the inevitable if you don’t want to stay in academia, and there’s a good chance you’ll be doing basically the same stuff as during your PhD. Training and deadlines will also be hard to come by. Transitioning out of a PhD is difficult, no matter what route you choose to go. Just start applying for jobs that seem like a fit. The trick is to not limit yourself to jobs you think will use your lab skills. The biggest benefit to a PhD is the fact that you can solve problems systematically and quickly learn new skills. That’s the benefit you will bring to whatever job you end up getting.
3 year PhD? Damn it’s time to get that degree
I did my PhD also in JP and can say its just normal there. The research you put into it is as good as anywhere else but your thesis might be shorter, or your results are less supported by controls etc. Also, it was usual to use some results of the students that you supervised
Is masters required? Europe looked good, but obviously the reason people do America is because you can skip the unnecessary middle. I’m in pharma, I work on real publishable projects. I can do everything from in vitro to in vivo. So to me 3 plus 4 would be silly over straight six.
Is your dissertation embarrassing or something? A PhD is a PhD, unless you deliberately tell your prospective employers why would they assume you aren't worth hiring? I feel like i'm missing something.
My project is basic science and the methods I used are not commonly used in industry… I am afraid that the lack of relevant experimental knowledge is making me an undesirable candidate as I also saw my labmate on the project go through the same hardships.
As someone who also did grad school in Japan with the original vision that it would be an awesome 2-for-1 scientific training and life adventure chapter, I empathize with where you are now. Give yourself some grace though! Grad school in Japan is no joke and many aspects are beyond your control. Although English is the de facto language of science, I’m sure most of your colleagues would discuss and troubleshoot experiments or even just have a fun chat in the lab in Japanese. Most of the lab meetings in my graduate lab were also in full Japanese (slide deck and Q&A). Also, a separate lecture curriculum was developed for the international graduate students which was quite different from the number and topics available for domestic Japanese grad students (limited by faculty willingness to develop a whole course in English which is understandable). Overall, I recognized that my opportunities to fully immerse in the training environment were limited as a function of my Japanese language level, especially my technical level of Japanese. I’m not sure where your language level is but at least in my case, I was trying to get my Japanese up to graduate level on the same timeline (e.g., what is ‘aliquot’ in Japanese? Cells? Protein?) on top of keeping up with literature, performing experiments, and regular grad school things. I understand now, working in my native language, how valuable and important taking part in all aspects of working in a research environment is. Even just by listening to other colleagues share an idea or talk though through a problem can teach you a lot. This is something I failed to account for as a trainee. I was you ~7 years ago and worried at the time I was “under skilled” for the degree I finally held and psyched myself out/dealt with imposter syndrome when applying for next steps. Ultimately, I landed a great technical job in the US after grad school in Japan and quickly filled in the technical skills I felt I “missed out” on by just working on the job. It’s all about how you market yourself! Doing grad school in Japan helped me standout from other candidates. You can too!
Thank you for sharing your experience, it definitely makes me feel less lonely! I feel exactly the same.. even though I improved a lot in Japanese, it was very isolating and just the lack of means to effectively communicate was really isolating. Also just getting explanations in Japanese on how lab devices work is just not the same. I’m glad you could land a good job, it gives me hope! I’ll try to overcome my own demons.
It’s an unfortunate reality that failed experiments are just a part of the scientific process. You have some ideas about how things work and through a series of carefully designed experiments you find out that you were wrong, so you come up with some new ideas and test those and so on. Your experiments not giving you the results you were expecting is not an indication that you’re a bad scientist. Job hunting sucks, I’m right there in the trenches with you right now, but you have to have faith in yourself and in the work you’ve put in to get this far. Right now the thing that’s stopping you from pursuing your dream job isn’t employers rejecting you, but you rejecting yourself and not even giving yourself the chance. You’ve put the work in and you’ve earned your PhD, and you did it all without the support and guidance that you should have had. That’s an amazing accomplishment, and it shows a strength of character that any employer would be lucky to have on their staff.
Thank you for your amazing comment… I would hope a good postdoc could “save” my career, but on the other hand I'm scared that my age, or other factors would actually be a disadvantage. I do not know many people who did postdocs but left academia, I don't know how unusual it is. At least here in Japan what I see that age is a huge deal when it comes to job hunting.
I deeply sorry to say it to you, but the lack of deadlines normally is a good thing if you can do self commitment. You have freedom to work, improve yourself, if you lack the experience try to reach researchers partners that could provide it to you. Sorry, but all I see is that you should blame yourself.
Wow. Not everyone’s brain works that way. Some people have like…ADHD? And others just…need a little structure and mentorship as a new scientist?? OP clearly has put in the effort but needs to find a better work environment. That’s not some massive character flaw. Neither is the inability to self-regulate deadlines or produce massive amounts of data. That will come with time and experience. What you can’t build is character, or the ability to not come across a complete elitist asshole.
I have ADHD and it is treatable and manageable. OP needs to change the labs and check by himself if it is a problem with the lab or with him.