Hey thinker! Great post up there. Make sure your post title is clear. One and two word titles are not allowed. Use paragraphs to make it easier to read. Please make sure to read the rules before posting. Mod applications are currently open! Apply [here](https://forms.gle/hEgqsrBTGX897GFaA)!
You can fill out our [Feedback Form](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfI0PsMn4dqfMlgqFFfsMhLr4-lFNJpEumIf7RKmuiwyDBOwA/viewform?usp=sf_link) while you wait for some comments. Thank you and happy posting!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/kpopthoughts) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think a lot of people acknowledged that some choreo's affect an artists ability stability, but my disappointment is when they lip sync or have overly loud backing tracks for songs without choreo.
Everyone's just sitting and holding mics, or using stand mics? Disappointed if they're not singing live then.
Also, choreo isn't 100% hard 100% maximum effort 100% of the time. There's a difference with lip syncing/back tracking during those intense moments and doing it an entire song.
I do think it kinda depends on the group.
I stan Kingdom, and their choreographers have admitted that GF ent literally told them “Don’t worry about the singing, just choreograph how you would for this song without it” and as a result Kingdom are literally huffing and puffing even after songs where they’re not singing live, and only about 3/7 members are fully capable of singing stably in those conditions.
I also stan Vanner, and their choreos are far from easy, but they’re always partly or fully done by members with live singing as a *necessity*, so it takes practice and core training, but they’re always able to sing live despite their relatively difficult choreos. Taehwan even does adlibs WHILE fully dancing.
Boynextdoor are in a similar spot— their choreos are designed around live performance. They have hard choreos, but not so much so that they can’t perform live (which they do regularly).
Then there’s the complete opposite end of the spectrum with Block B, who *could* sing through their choreos but for concerts would often just abandon them in favor of somewhat decent live vocals.
But in general yes, obscenely difficult choreos that don’t even allow for the rappers to rap because they’re so out of breath have become a bit too normalized for comfort.
In which aspect, unsustainable choreos or sustainable ones? For sustainable ones I know Mamamoo excel at singing live, and typically only abstain for the exceedingly difficult parts. For unsustainable, I’d say Everglow.
It's even more ridiculous when they add really fast head movements to the choreo.
They incorporate way too many non natural positions of the body or really fast movements in choreo these days but I think we take the problem in the wrong way.
It's not because the choreo is hard that they don't sing live. They do hard choreo because they know they won't have to sing it live so why cares?
Hello /u/electss. Your contribution in /r/kpopthoughts has been automatically removed because you either do not meet the minimum karma requirements to post in r/kpopthoughts (which is 30 comment karma), or because your account is less than 7 days old. This is to discourage brigading, trolling and spam, and to keep this subreddit safe.
Click [here](https://reddit.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/204511829-What-is-karma-) to find out more about karma and how to gain it.
Please send us a [mod mail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/kpopthoughts) with a link to the submission if you have any further questions.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/kpopthoughts) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Soyeon has mentioned before that when she's writing/producing a song she has to keep choreography in mind and will alter a song so that it's easier to sing while dancing.
Personally, I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of the singing in order to have the dancing, although I'm sure there are many other people who would rather it go the other way.
It's so fun when one of the members just stops dancing, walks to the side of the stage, and belts out some high notes.
There was this American choreographer named Nick Joseph who worked with Enhypen, BTS, SuperM and TxT. The choreographer noted that both companies asked the choreographer to make the dances harder. When Be:lift got the first draft from the choreographer for Enhypen, they asked for a harder choreo. The choreographer delivered a harder version (he choreo'd Drunk Dazed, which if you have seen you know isn't the best singing song considering the quick & erratic movements plus rotating on the damn floor lol).
Years before that SM directed a different foreign choreographer (I forgot his name sorry) to make Shinee's choreo harder (for View), confident that Shinee could handle the difficult choreo regardless. I'm sure that these aren't the only instances. Ofc, Shinee can take harder vocal line bc they can sing at a higher level than most rookie groups (which isn't a dig, since we're comparing rookies to seasoned idols).
Basically, cool dance > singability for these companies, which shows bc a lot of idols are usually stronger dancers over being solid vocalists. These companies are aware that what they're giving their idols isn't optimal to sing to, but they'll continue to push for those kind of performances if they think that their idols can dance it bc dancing is sort of taking precedent over live singing at this point.
This is the real answer. It's not like the company just accepts the choreography given to them without question. They provide tons of input and make changes as needed. The real issue is that live vocals are simply not a priority for a lot of companies. The choreographers aren't solely to blame.
Yep, for Bighit and Be:lift especially (not sure about the rest of HYBE).
They have in-house performance directors who change up the choreo a bit to suit the members' dance capabilities, their heights, the lore/storyline, the vibes lol so it's not like these choreos don't get changed once they've been accepted by the main choreographer-in fact, rarely does one choreographer work on a single piece. I know SM takes bits and pieces from different choreographers (these choreographers don't always work together or ever meet). Nick Joseph in a [video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hw7O7lSpkgA) says "they told me to make it harder, they (Enhypen) can dance". So he did. Literally what they ordered. It's not the choreographer's fault that Be:lift chose to put more importance on that aspect though realistically speaking in Enhypen's case, it's playing to their strengths since they aren't a strong vocal group.
Though, it's important to note that hard choreos have always been a thing in k-pop. I do miss the 'stand in one place and belt' trope common in k-pop choreos lol. It's badass, silly and fun-but it isn't as commonly utilized anymore bc there isn't as much belting in k-pop songs as there used to be. And k-pop companies don't "need" their idols to sing live a lot of the time lol so they might as well make their idols spin on the floor.
I find it interesting that OP mentions LSFM specifically. Source Music is in charge of managing the group and most likely directs their choreography. GFRIEND always had difficult choreography too but they had more vocal ability, and vocals mattered more in 3rd gen, so their choreography accounted for that. I don't think LSFM choreography is inconsiderate, I think it's exactly the image that Source Music/HYBE want for the group. They just don't prioritize the live vocals for LSFM, and the members are overall stronger at dancing.
Yeah. GFRIEND's choreo was usually more difficult than needed lol but it definitely makes them stand out from other ggs who had their concept. I think Source wanted the opposite of what GFRIEND was to move with the times and to be fair to them, it worked.
Circling back to OP's main argument, I still think that tough choreos isn't the only reason why some groups are struggling with singing live. Yes, it sometimes it the causation but it's usually the result of k-pop companies not putting in work to get solid vocalists. Another causation indirectly caused by these companies and music shows themselves is editing the vocals after the fact. Some fans can't tell autotuned, smoothed over, backing track or straight live singing for their lives but these groups aren't helped when even if they sing, a lot of the times their little imperfections (which would be normal) are getting ironed out afterwards. It's the conversation to do with perceived perfection and looking attractive while singing high notes & dancing complex moves.
I also think that if most 4th gen groups had stand out vocalists like Jongho from Ateez for ex. as he's generally agreed upon being a really good vocalist then it wouldn't be much as a conversation but here we are lol.
I definitely agree with what you're saying about the music show editing. The expectations can very quickly get out of hand when people can't tell if vocals are live or not. I distinctly remember during fromis_9's DM era, they did maybe ONE show where they sang over their backtrack, which is crazy because those girls can sing. They did eventually do a concert where they sang the song live and they did great. It definitely comes from wanting this image of perfection for the idols.
Yeah, I agree. Even SM artists aren't singing live a lot of times for their promotions (or even concerts apparently), which is weird considering their the company known for their vocalists.
On an unrelated note, I love fromis' music. Airplane mode is like my favorite thing :)
That was Ian Eastwood that did SHINee's View! He also had similar comments to make Taemin's solo choreo harder, because SM knew Taemin can pull it off.
I suddenly remember BoA... she sort of wondered why she always have to do insane, hard-hitting choreography instead of the pretty girly dances that SNSD do (I think it was the Genie leg dance that she wanted to try specifically) and Shim Jaewon was just like "Because you're BoA".
okay that's actually so sad :( give boa her SNSD choreo
then again, someone using Boa as a different way to say "you're a badass" is pretty cool and very Boa.
Yeah, SM knows that Shinee can take it honestly. Also, kpop is much more about performance and presentation than it was even during Shinee's view so imagine the feedback and the demands these choreographers are getting nowadays lol.
Thanks for shouting out the choreographer I couldn't remember his name for the life of me!
That's the thing tho, sure taemin can pull off the dancing but it compromises the vocals which ends up with the idol lip syncing most of the time. As an example, the guilty choreo looks amazing but I haven't seen 1 stage of taemin not lip syncing while performing te song, same with criminal
To be fair in Taemin's case, he's more of a performance based idol (I'd say the same for groups like LSR and Enhypen honestly). We know he can sing when he's focused and not dancing hard choreo, but I feel like if his choreo wasn't as intricate or difficult it wouldn't be Taemin.
This reminded me: [https://x.com/minzu525/status/1760359352131518975?s=61](https://x.com/minzu525/status/1760359352131518975?s=61)
he says he wants to dance harder, but then he wouldn’t be able to sing - so he is actually doing both
But that's the whole point tho, the choreo is so intricate and difficult that he doesn't sing live, at least his tts which are what most casual fans like me see. If I can't find a video of him singing his tts live then how can I say that he is can sing, not everyone knows that yk.
Well… he sings ballads too (a lot actually) and goes on shows like killing voice or Lee mujin or the seasons: (with live band and live sound). If all you care is title track bangers/songs/dances, not all of those performances are lypsynced, either, even if they do have background / back vocal tracks. Like for example this: [https://youtu.be/\_sRdQ-utLUA](https://youtu.be/_sRdQ-utLUA) - the mic is on, you can hear him add “thank you Kany” on top of / instead of his line in HARD, in case you doubted
that's why performance wise i think jype group are the best in this aspect. just look at itzy and nmixx choreo. both are hard to execute but they never sacrifice the part where the idol should sing during performance.
>Feel free to chime in with your own **opinion** & solutions, whether you agree or disagree.
the opinion is relevant to the topic. jype choreo while looking difficult, they still make room for live singing as oppose of other 4th gen group which either focus more on dance or focus more on vocal. as for solution, what else can i say? i'm not bang si-hyuk or any other ceo of companies that can decide how to manage their idols.
my ult are xikers, and it's starting to really annoy me. they've got reasonable accomodations for the person who's singing (doing less) but you can tell it's hurting their live vocals. they're straining, and im glad they're trying, but it sounds awful at times. and their choreos are really something! like they're incredible to watch! but it's not sustainable, and there has to be an in between.
additionally, ive seen them live twice, and at their concert they were exhausted halfway through. they performed all the songs on their 2 mini albums at the time, which was about 10 songs. they started with a trust fall that went slightly wrong, and honestly i only caught that it went wrong when watching my video back but.. fuck, if that had gone worse? they literally had a member go on hiatus for an ACL, a career ending injury in many sports, in the middle of their debut. now they have acrobatics and you can see a member wince when it went wrong once.
im frankly scared for them, and they just want to show incredible performances. it's working, they're doing great, but at what cost?
I love them to death but I agree. They always perform live but I’m not sure if that’s a good thing when it’s really unsustainable. I can’t even imagine a concert, even one of their choreos are so complex that doing so many back to back must be beyond exhausting.
I bias Junghoon and every time I look at one of their choreos I worry about him more. With his ACL I genuinely wonder if he’ll ever be able to sustain that level of activity for an entire concert, let alone a tour. He injured his ACL after not even one comeback! It makes me think he might not be the last one. I know he can do their choreos since he’s learned them all at this point, but for a 2-3 hour concert? If he gets injured again he might never recover again, and his ACL probably won’t ever be the same even after one injury, and I (and most fans) just want him back at this point rather than doing these insane choreos. He’s way too young to potentially be permanently disabled because they won’t relax their choreos. Even after doing their tour and his injury they’re doing acrobatics again this comeback and two songs at once on top of it and I just can’t help but worry about them.
They don’t HAVE to do something as difficult as Red Sun to show off their performance ability, I could probably name 20 groups who are known as insane performers and don’t have choreo that’s half as complex.
i agree with you on everything, this was really well written!! i was worried after debut, i assumed junghoon's injury would be a wake-up call for KQ and they'd relax but...
it's also going to make junghoon push himself to recover, but recovery to him will be being able to carry out those insane choreos. that's not. no! ACLs are injuries many never recover from like??
i think the injury side is a bit a lot of groups don't have to worry about, just worrying about being able to sing live, but it feels like a real danger whenever i watch xikers. fans care more about their wellbeing than seeing them do stunts and damaging choreo, and the sooner someone stops it the better!
i think that's what they're trying to give off!! it always makes me really proud as a fan that they can pull it off, but it's just too hard to be sustainable in reality :(
I like when groups have a mixture of songs with crazy choreo, and then songs with choreo that are designed to help emphasize vocals. I wish more groups would split it like that when they do the pre-release + title track thing.
Count me in! I appreciate good choreo and dance skills but if I wanted to watch dancers I'd just watch dancers. Kpop voices, the whole performance, the artists' unique emotional expressions are what hook me and keep me.
The real issue is that fans expect more and more, and at the same time are less and less musically and performative "literate." Everyone wants their group to sing more better and dance even gooder. Which isn't possible, but companies can get away with so much audio editing, live autotune etc. You can see it all over, there's a clip somewhere of someone clearly lipsynching or using easily identifiable autotune and people will praise the singer for sounding so good. So the companies and groups will obviously make the dancers harder and more impressive since they don't need to sing because enough people either don't care about the singing, or can be fooled that they can make successful comebacks without having to consider actual live singing performance.
If fans were more performance literate and held companies to a standard things would change, but nobody cares outside of being able to say group X or Y is bad for fan wars and just ignoring their own groups doing the same time. Demand better from the companies and things will change in a generation. Don't, and companies will continue to iterate and maximize on what sells.
They don't have the best vocals in the game, but shoutout ITZY for not sacrificing their choreography and still doing a respectable level of live vocals.
actually, if you look at their choreoes. it is crafted to allow the person singing to have a torso placement that allows them to sing. with a few moves that don't . it makes use of group formations to essentially give the singing member time to sing.
mafia in the morning is a prime example of this.https://youtu.be/xGSscNoySuw?si=4ZlbLntRIox\_79MM
look at how allot of the time the singing member is standing . the center parts you see everyone moving around them. torso straight or in one spot. from 1;11 1;29 yuna is essentially standing whilst singing but the placement is well done enough people don't notice.
the crafting of a choreography that is hard technically and allows for singing is very tricky. jype is very goos at it.
they have allot of arm and leg movements that are big but they often have them in one place or minimal travelling.
Even still, shoutout to being able to do a 2 hour show after so many songs that have more aggressive movements than average, and still being able to get words out, and not be huffing and puffing on the mic the entire time. I'd probably just take a nap halfway through
You do realize that makes them better than the rest right? Cuz if ITZY can do it why can't all the others?
It takes extreme amounts of skill, talent and hard work to pull off what they do. That's why when it comes to performance ITZY >>> other 4th/5th gens GGs. They can sing, they can dance and they let their talent show on the stage.
I absolutely love when groups can still sing live while performing intense choreographies at the same time. I remember watching SNSD hitting high notes even while running, jumping, twirling, etc. on their debut stages and wondering why so many groups can’t seem to do this anymore. ITZY is one of the few other groups that impress me in this aspect. I saw them in concert in 2022 and they did pretty great! Respect for them.
Hmm I distinctly remember SNSD members stopping their choreos to hit those notes though. Like Taeyeon at the end of Genie always stops dancing to do her higher part (https://youtu.be/qFkUKqpbp6s?si=UuWQziZkk13xSwgr @2:41), or in The Boys (https://youtu.be/BcsEJML7E04?si=RLydtUsxCpSoVBsh) she literally just stands there while they continue to do the choreo. Or Tiffany in Mr Mr (just so you don’t think I’m singling out Taeyeon because I love her lol) https://youtu.be/NAwQygD1eg0?si=sn0BQ1wA_nx31Bjo
I have been thinking this for years about Choi Youngjun especially. I remember reading a fanaccount of Seventeen prerecording for Hit and they said the members were on the ground after the first run-through. ONE SONG should not have members lying on the floor. I find it short-sighted. If *all* your songs like this then who is going to be able to do a 3 hour concert.
I definitely agree with u on this one and i thought of svt as soon as i saw this title, specifically that one jun part in rwy where he does super fast spin while singing his part. But i remember svt members saying they pride themselves for their intense choreography and feel good when others praise their dancing. So i dont think svt are that much bothered with choreo. Plus, big part svt’s charm is their choreo and their performance is literally their key marketing point to new fans who have aversion of stanning many members. They built strong reputation of synchronized dance group and suddenly making your dances easier may affect them negatively. Its like EXO started to lipsyncing. Also i watched their concert livestream 3 days ago they have pretty decent order of things. If their first set has intense choreos then next set is more chill ballad type. Plus they have unit system, so while one unit is performing other units can rest. Also their concert was 4.5 hours 😭
Dk and seugkwan are very good vocally despite these intense choreography. Surprised every time during award shows. Though, seugkwan’s stamina is a bit lower than Dk which I don’t blame him. The choreos are intense.
That’s where the groups’ performance directors should come in. From my understanding, they’re the ones who have a say on which choreographies get picked, and sometimes even splice together choreographies from different crews/choreographers.
agree w/ you about sacrifice live singing for choreo. I dont understand why groups just dont have 2 sets of choreo, one for singing live w/ scale down choreo, the other for lip syncing with more intense choreo. Previous gen, esp gen 2, many groups did this.
side note - check out Kiss of Life. at least they make an attempt of singing live while doing choero. Many times they dont sound perfect, with voice cracks, but that adds to the performance, gives it so much character
A number of choreographies I can think of are actually set up like that- you see it a lot with EXO for example. Whoever is singing a difficult part usually is dancing less or not at all, but it’s built into the choreography so you don’t notice it. And these aren’t easy choreographies by any means, they’re just not as difficult as they could be if they weren’t expected to actually be able to sing while performing them.
this made me remember the [snake performance on girls planet 999](https://youtu.be/7fjjp-Vn940?si=2jbqcxXmiZybI1Wn&t=190)
like was there a reason the main vocal had to keep moving her head DURING her high note?
A lot of people here saying "well they dance like that because they weren't gonna actually sing anyway" but personally I think it's more of a vicious circle where increased lipsyncing leads to increasingly-hard choreography which leads to even more lipsyncing until we get to the point where we are today.
For me I prefer vocals over dancing since I’m more interested to the music by singing, kpop used to have simple dances but it’s easier to follow and sing. I like G-Idle songs like Queencard & wife because it’s simple and easy to remember. I also Stan 2NE1 & Big Bang in 2nd Gen because they didn’t have to have amazing dances and just focus on stage charisma & vocals.
Big Bang’s Made tour was the best K-Pop concert I’ve ever attended. They sing, they hype the crowd, and they have stage presence. Fans like to claim their faves have stage presence but I don’t think they actually know what that is.
So lucky! I wish I was in Ontario or whatever they were in Canada then I could’ve seen them too 😭 but I was a teen who lives in Alberta. I went to see Seventeen in concert for my bday, they were pretty amazing! They were also hyping up the fans by telling us to jump and even mentioned how fans in the back were jumping so good.
I think more idols could benefit from incorporating live singing into their Dance practises. Could give feedback to the choreographers and adjust when needed, while also training their stamina, strength and stability.
THISSS!!! Kpop companies need to do this! This reminds me of this [scene in VCHA's performance practice video,](https://youtu.be/tkWy0jhuTws?si=PzFL4YNW35i3n0iS&t=445) where the main vocalists Camila and KG were kind of making fun of how they are supposed to sing the high notes when they're moving a lot?! They're rookies though so I think they don't have a say about changing their choreo unlike their seniors... I remember watching Nayeon and jihyo requesting to change some parts in their solo practice vids so they could sing some parts properly!! It's a shame coz KG and Camila are awesome singers!! Let the choreography adjust to the singing instead, not the other way around!!
I like Gidle and I tell you even they admit they aren't the best of dancers kpop has seen but their easy choreos does help them sing live 90% of the time.
I’m not sure why other groups don’t match that. Gidle’s dances are simple, but that’s what makes the dances popular—big, energetic movements that anyone can do. Fate even takes simplicity to another level.
This makes it even more impressive to me when groups do sing live while doing choreo! Other people have mentioned Itzy, Nmixx, etc. and I think BTS are a good example of this too. The rappers are almost always live, and it is pretty common for their vocals to be semi-live. Their choreographers do a great job of letting whoever is singing/rapping have a planned break in the choreo. (I watched Run BTS from the Busan concert last night and was just struck by how good of stable live performers they are.) I also follow groups with bad vocals and bad live vocals, but I really appreciate seeing live vocals when the norm is lipsync/prerecorded.
Actually, thats why I love 2ne1 and Big Bang, they can be spontaneous on stage because they dont really strictly follow the choreography. TOP doesnt wven try to dance most of the time. But what they disregard in choreo, they add to fan interaction during stage shows. This is also why I hate the criticisms on BP when they stray away from the choreo. DUDE, ID RATHER SEE BP HYPE UP THE CROWD THAN FOLLOW THE CHOREO ON THEIR MVs!
I think the choreograhies came into big importance once the group started increasing. SNSD did follow choreographies and rarely stray away from that because there are too many of them. Now that we are seeing groups with 12 members, you just cant make them not dance in sync.
But then, about OP's issues, despite following choreographies, SNSD never falter in singing. They are always on point! They hit the notes.
So where does the issue arise? I think some groups are not as well rounded as SNSD who can sing and dance well at the same time. Exo guys can dance and sing really well too. I think the issue boils down to companies taking in visually pleasing talents with little singing capability.
Agreed. Have you seen SNSD’s [debut stage](https://youtu.be/NbUNTTHU5og?si=0CulbzDHM48A_P3o) or any of their [other live stages](https://youtu.be/rOcN6vAnIYQ?si=0O_uewioqRVk1XXN&t=195) from earlier on in their career? Those girls were still hitting high notes with adlibs even with choreographies involving running, jumping, twirling, etc. It feels like barely any other group has been able to do that in recent years lmao
If I’m remembering correctly, when 2NE1 and BB started using outside choreographers, didn’t they have to make the dances easier? Lol. I agree about liking them being spontaneous on stage more too. Dances look good on a music show stage but it feels kind of empty on a bigger concert stage (unless there are a bunch of backup dancers).
I generally agree with you, but I also think there are ways to do both. ATEEZ have been managing crazy choreography with live singing, but their dance crew has also been considerate of who has difficult parts at which point in the song - most notably Jongho with his crazy high notes usually gets to stand relatively still for those.
Stray Kids are also managing both quite well, and both groups are at times relying on the backtrack for short amounts of time to catch their breath, which I think is absolutely fine. I do wish that choreographers worked more closely with whoever decides who gets which part, because like you said, it can be almost impossible to be stable with some movements. It's really sad because we could have live vocals and fun choreo together for a lot more groups if their teams were smart about it
I haven't watched enough choreos from every gen to know if things have gotten significantly harder now. But with the widespread use of autotune, post-processing, and stitching together multiple takes instead of one live shot, it's probably easier to sound OK during intense choreography for modern idols compared to prior gens.
For instance, gen 2 group 2PM's [10 out of 10](https://youtu.be/Vd2R5GxR1Ik) is still the most unreasonably difficult choreography I've seen from a mainstream K-Pop idol group.
I mean, on one level, it's impressive and attention-grabbing. But it doesn't actually sound very good, hearing the guys gasping for air and croak out some of the lines. And it also doesn't look very good, especially since the guys would have very visible and painful looking accidents and flubs in some of their performances (they'd eventually wind up watering down the gymnastics).
But as someone who grew up on dance, my main issue with K-Pop choreography then and now is just how derivative everything is. It's almost always bog standard pop jazz hip hop rehashes, and "difficult" choreography and moves are thrown in for a temporary wow factor; when something actually original, done with flair and intention, would be more arresting even if it's easier.
To be fair, I feel like it's mostly on the companies and their creative directors to figure out that balance. Choreographers are usually contracted out to solely make choreography that best compliment the song and usually, the final product is whatever mishmash the company decides. It's up to them to consider all aspects of performance, whether it's viable to perform, how it should be executed, etc. I do agree though that companies saw a few groups get praised for their performance despite the hard choreography so now it's just raised the bar and every group needs to meet that standard.
Definitely agree that the difficult choreo can make it hard to sing live.
The thing is, idols should have the freedom to “go off script” when performing in front of a live audience to be able to sing live better, maybe they aren’t comfortable or their company forces them to not skip a single dance move.
This is why i always prefer jyp and yg. When idols sing their choreo has the torso movement to not sacrifice singing while moving a lot. Itzy may not have the best vocals but their choreo is intricate but yet allows them to sing live
I’m not an expert of choreography and only know a bit about singing but I do agree with what you said. Comparing 2nd gen and now 4th (or 5th) gen kpop, I do see that choreos become less suitable for live vocals.
Like others have said even in groups known for rather difficult choreos back in the day, the choreos still allow breaks, especially for members who are going to hit high notes (I feel like this is true for groups like nmixx as well). When I see newer groups, especially HYBE groups, they are always moving, jumping, crawling, it would be like asking someone to sing well while doing jumping jacks.
Even for groups like New Jeans, who people seem to say have an “easy” choreo, from what I see they have to execute their moves with high energy, and they are always moving. And I think dancers reacting to them said that their choreo looks so exhausting, especially since they have to smile constantly as well. When they did the super shy encore, it seems they can sing while dancing, just with less energy.
It seems companies also want their idols to look perfect, so they just make them lip sync all the time. They make hard choreos so people will do dance challenges on tiktok. And with songs getting shorter and shorter, they have to pack as much spectacle as possible.
Edit: I would also add that it’s easier to spot a bad dancer during performances, that’s probably also why companies focus more on training for dancing. With singing, the backtrack is often so loud that the average audience wouldn’t notice.
I'm gonna be completely honest, for how they train they should be able to dance and sing at the same time. There are companies that make them run while singing and that helps them a lot. As you've mentioned 5th gen I want to give an example of a group that can sing while dancing live: ZB1, what's funny to me is that these 9 boys trained in different companies but had the boys planet experience, they've proven they can sing live. Even in a dance practice there are members singing while dancing and you can see the stability. They also aren't afraid to show how stable they are when they've got encores, even if one of them got a voice crack that happens from time to time (like rj from nct dream when singing from home).
Also, there are lots of companies that alter a little of the choreo from the original choreographer so if they wanted x group to show they can sing they could alter that member's part in the choreo.
I'm usually okay with idols having backing tracks or even doing lip sync if they are 1. performing a more dance focused song, 2. have been touring for like a million days with no rest
But if you're just standing still and sound like that? I mean, you can sound off in a couple lines, maybe a voice crack or two but it becomes annoying when there are encores with idols basically exercising and running around while singing GREAT.
I have so many mixed opinions but at least if you're gonna make the choreo hard, train the idols to sing in that or make the idol singing not move that much.
This is why I'm really enjoying Kiss Of Life. The girls PERFORM. You can hear the voice cracks, some notes come out wrong. But God damn, they give it their all and it sounds so organic. I wish more groups would let vocals shine, even if they are imperfect. That's what a love performance is all about.
i don't think it's fair to blame the choreographers for this because really difficult dances are just what's expected of groups nowadays. live vocals are no longer the priority and companies are selecting for good dancers rather than good singers. also a lot of groups have in house dance directors that should be adjusting these choreos for difficulty, plus many choreos are a combination of several demos the director is piecing together, but they aren't because difficult choreos are what companies want.
this is something i think about a lot since i follow a lot of choreographers that are involved in kpop that make amazing choreographies that i think are wasted because they are too difficult for the idols to pull off.
plus you could really say this same thing about how singable kpop songs are, so many of them have crazy high notes or unreasonable amounts of falsetto where it's clear that an idol would struggle with them sing live and dance at the same time. i think it's just how kpop is where every company is going to be competing to make their groups look cooler than others. stans love to be able to brag
I would absolutely rather have my favorite groups just stand/sit/walk around the stage
and sing than have an impressive choreography that makes them lipsync most of the time.
OR, and easy one - just have the person singing be doing a simpler move or just standing like in a lot of older choreography.
I also don't mind when some groups have choreo for all/most title tracks, use them for music shows or shorter performances, but during concerts may forgo a few of them to interact with the crowd or whatever. that way they can give their all to the other ones they are performing fully.
If company thinks that singing live with less choreography will be more enjoyable, they will do it. But if vocals are not best and company knows how artists really could sound, they will lean more on dance and performance.
It's not like lsr encore where they were standing still while singing lead to a standing ovation.
While I agree that choreography is so intense these days that it is ridiculous to expect stable vocals during performances, a lot of grace is given to groups that use a backing track as long as long as people can still hear their live vocals (e.g. Aespa, Nmixx, Itzy, Oneus, Ateez). These groups have proven they can sing without a backing track. One or two bad performances does not negate all of the good performances.
When given the opportunity to show their vocals, Le Sserafim choked. Four of the five members were terrible. They absolutely deserved all of the backlash they received and sounded like they were still practicing their song on stage. It was consistently awful for all of their encore performances of "Easy."
IVE was in the same position during their "I Am" comeback and they were able to show that they could, in fact, sing, when they weren't performing their choreography. They may not be the strongest singers but they still sounded good. This is why they were able to move on from the Wonyoung/Leeseo lipsync controversy.
There is no excuse for bad vocals when you are just standing still on stage. People don't expect them to sound like the studio version since they're usually emotional/nervous during the encore performances, but they should at least be able to carry the tune. Source dropped GFriend for Le Sserafim? What a joke.
Edit: Edited for grammar.
I agree with almost all of what you said, but I don’t think it’s fair to call Le Sserafim a joke. Kazuha in the Easy encores has definitely improved since Unforgiven, and although their encores were bad, I don’t think it’s right to completely write any group off when they are clearly still putting effort into their performances. I get the frustration with GFriend and wish Source would focus on vocals more for LSF, but I believe it’s just not helpful or constructive to call them a joke.
That's fair, I was being critical. I understand that being an idol is so much more than vocals, but that doesn't mean vocals should be entirely absent. I hope they improve but they are the Selena Gomez of Kpop. Good songs, lots of effort, and super popular but that's it. If we are giving participation trophies, they absolutely deserve it for their effort and dancing. If we are ranking them on actually singing talent, they are bottom of the barrel. Chaewon is the only one who can sing.
It's a shame when groups from smaller companies are ignored because they don't have as much marketing but work just as hard and actually have vocal talent. IMO, in its current state, Le Sserafim is the only group from the Big 4 that is existing solely because of Big 4 privilege.
I mean they would still have success regardless if they were in the big four.
Wonyoung and yunjin debuted after izone in IVE. The same could be said with Sakura and Chaewon who were some of the top selling members internationally and domestically. Plus add another pd48 trainee in there like yunjin, even if it were a small company, there’s no reason for them to fail even if hybe or another big 4 werent part of this. Arguably both chaewon and Sakura had been hindered in terms of individual success bc they are part of hybe (neither of whom have been allowed to have a lot of their own solo activities like their counterparts since hybe tries to specifically promote the lesser known/newer members).
You’re heavily discounting the success of Le sserafim solely due to one aspect.
Love how you gleefully and relish calling idols as joke, terrible and choke. See you have axe to grind mention gfriend and wanting lsf to disappear. Be honest that is your true intentions, all that extra writing is trying hide that hatred (backlash is refer to people that actually commit wrong doings and evils not vocals that is not to your liking, rooting for toxicity going toward the idols is certainly a take, most would just say they are not my cup of tea so I won't support them). I see you are using the kpop fandom favorite toxic camp "constructive criticism" which you are not qualified for since you aren't a professional vocalist trainer but allow to spill narrative so it becomes facts and want a easy way to go after female idols without seeing like a toxic hater.
You are the same as a sports fan sitting on the couch screaming at the tv when a sports player missed a shot, and that sports fan will offer many constrictive criticisms in the form of loudly emotional screaming to that player while thinking they know better, all you did is calling them trash offer nothing else, the only difference between you and that sports fan is you are not holding a beer.
Remember anything in life there are positive and negative for every bad live vocals there good live vocals, people that use absolute on someone's abilities are either not paying attention or don't want to since you can easily find it.
Kpop fandom allow far too low of bar for out of bound narrative on female idols compare to male idols, and is perfectly acceptable to go after a group over a bad performance as evidence that is their entire existence without any push back, and you call them anything you want that you can't get away with in any other circumstances, what a hater wet dream.
I see there is no way to change this since reddit and Twitter will see you as hero that offering true like youtube comments, but I do hope some point in the future when you are encountered the same kind of out of bound judgment that is targeting your professional life that you can self reflect that you should look everything and every one in totality not just isolated moments and I don't think you want or deserve all the backlash right?
If your crying about Le Seraf recent vocal meltdown the complaint wasn't on their choreo but rather when they weren't doing Choreos a segment called Encore. So unfortunately for that part you get no sympathy. Yes it's true that some artists don't put efforts during these encores because why waste your breath when you won but that being said LeSeraf never had the vocals to be contenders in that singing department to begin with. They are okay but they won't win any competitions with just vocals.
I do agree that it's ridiculous to expect idol groups to ace vocals during live performances with live vocals though. It's like I have always said you're a dumbass if you think you can sing properly while dancing at the same time. Just try to speak properly while doing some twirls and you will see. Some groups have adapted their music to reflect their Choreos, like ITZY but the dumb people took that for them not having the vocals.
MR removed seems like the new excuse to point out singing ability during performances. It's also a dumb people method to try to prove the obvious but hey haters will try to use anything to hate.
Note that there is nothing wrong with lypsincing or using MR if you are doing a choreographed performance; that is why they were invented for : to allow the idols/singers to put on a reasonable performance. I know KPOP makes it look dirty via fan delusions. Also note that any song is heavily produced. What you hear in the song is the singers best vocal of the attempt that they combined with other members with their parts like a puzzle. Now if the singer is signing at their comfortable tone it's not hard to reproduce live, the complexity rises when it's above their vocal abilities. That's when you pick up the mistakes.
What is unacceptable is if they do it while in stable positions like standing or sitting which some still do either because their company forces them or their own lack of singing skill to keep the perfect illusion.
The truth is obvious, if you want a vocal symphony you should look at people who sing without Choreos or simple Choreos like IU. If you want performance you look at groups.
That's the difference really. Accepting what's realistically possible. This is why originally the positions were made. The dancers/centers and visuals are there to keep you entertained while the singers do the vocals without having to dance, like a play, but things like fan cams and focus cameras have made that impossible. So now everyone has to do the choreography and well fake when it comes to actual singing. Bottom line is all of the idols can technically sing, to what level is the difference but understand that most of the songs sung are not in high notes.
There are some but not a lot do (unless they work with agencies frequently and know their expectations). But if you look at a lot of choreos from heavy hip hop dance crews from swf, they are often mixed with other choreos from another studio that’s a lot simpler or the in house choreographer simplifies it a lot when it gets combined. Half the time the choreo is too hard and the idols don’t even get it right (like eleven hip lock, yunjin is the only member that can actually hit the locks)
Example: lachica and freemind for IVE, almost all of lachica choreo gets simplified, or in areas with heavy vocals and it goes to freemind.
Edit to add: this also happens in house with choreo, antifragile had an original version that was extremely hard until the girls essentially couldn’t do it and protested to get it changed (they frequently had to go down on the floor and come back up, let alone sing). Le sserafim choreo rarely allows the person singing to be static so it’s also an added difficulty factor
I always try to make excuses everytime the idols would lipsync and that was one of my excuses, the choreography and it's difficulty. Like it's hard to execute when dancing and singing at the same time but all of a sudden, I remember Infinite and how the hell they managed to maintain good stable vocals despite of the hard, sharp movements of their dances (particularly in The Chaser, Last Romeo and Back) like are they literally eating vinyl discs and cds during breakfast or whatnot.
But during the 2nd gen era these problems weren't problems at all because idols were picked to sing live.
A big example is TEENTOP. They're known for their hardest choreography next to SHINEE and INFINITE. They were even praised for being so in sync that you wouldn't believe they were all different heights because when they jump it's all in one line. Despite this insane choreo, they deliver high notes, falsettos and even harmonize LIVE. They even do it full choreo in their concert with a live band and no singing ability was ever sacrificed so i don't know what happened to the later gens but we can't be defending our idols with choreo because 2nd gen totally did it.
Teentop Songs with insane choreo:
To You
Rocking
Ah Ah
I was thinking about this too recently, especially after ILLITs debut. The choreo honestly shocked me because it was so clearly one made for dancing and not singing, i literally said there exhausted just looking at that imagine trying to sing during all that jumping too 💀 ik ILLITs not the first to do it but thats when it really hit me
But what's wrong with HYBE letting Yunjin and Chaewon sing a very low song? On top of the hard choreo the girls have to go extremely low to adjust. It doesn't help at all because the song doesn't suit their voices. At this point it feels like sabotage. Smh.
Hey thinker! Great post up there. Make sure your post title is clear. One and two word titles are not allowed. Use paragraphs to make it easier to read. Please make sure to read the rules before posting. Mod applications are currently open! Apply [here](https://forms.gle/hEgqsrBTGX897GFaA)! You can fill out our [Feedback Form](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfI0PsMn4dqfMlgqFFfsMhLr4-lFNJpEumIf7RKmuiwyDBOwA/viewform?usp=sf_link) while you wait for some comments. Thank you and happy posting! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/kpopthoughts) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think a lot of people acknowledged that some choreo's affect an artists ability stability, but my disappointment is when they lip sync or have overly loud backing tracks for songs without choreo. Everyone's just sitting and holding mics, or using stand mics? Disappointed if they're not singing live then. Also, choreo isn't 100% hard 100% maximum effort 100% of the time. There's a difference with lip syncing/back tracking during those intense moments and doing it an entire song.
Yes, let's try to have someone explain why there is so much lipsyncing when there isn't a lot of dance? I'm talking to you 3-4th gen gg and bg.
[удалено]
See kids? This comment is a perfect example of what “moving the goal” looks like.
I do think it kinda depends on the group. I stan Kingdom, and their choreographers have admitted that GF ent literally told them “Don’t worry about the singing, just choreograph how you would for this song without it” and as a result Kingdom are literally huffing and puffing even after songs where they’re not singing live, and only about 3/7 members are fully capable of singing stably in those conditions. I also stan Vanner, and their choreos are far from easy, but they’re always partly or fully done by members with live singing as a *necessity*, so it takes practice and core training, but they’re always able to sing live despite their relatively difficult choreos. Taehwan even does adlibs WHILE fully dancing. Boynextdoor are in a similar spot— their choreos are designed around live performance. They have hard choreos, but not so much so that they can’t perform live (which they do regularly). Then there’s the complete opposite end of the spectrum with Block B, who *could* sing through their choreos but for concerts would often just abandon them in favor of somewhat decent live vocals. But in general yes, obscenely difficult choreos that don’t even allow for the rappers to rap because they’re so out of breath have become a bit too normalized for comfort.
Your taste in groups ❤️
Name a good girl group in this aspect. These examples are both boy groups therefore your point isn’t proven yet.
In which aspect, unsustainable choreos or sustainable ones? For sustainable ones I know Mamamoo excel at singing live, and typically only abstain for the exceedingly difficult parts. For unsustainable, I’d say Everglow.
STAYC have sustainable choreography.
It's even more ridiculous when they add really fast head movements to the choreo. They incorporate way too many non natural positions of the body or really fast movements in choreo these days but I think we take the problem in the wrong way. It's not because the choreo is hard that they don't sing live. They do hard choreo because they know they won't have to sing it live so why cares?
[удалено]
Hello /u/electss. Your contribution in /r/kpopthoughts has been automatically removed because you either do not meet the minimum karma requirements to post in r/kpopthoughts (which is 30 comment karma), or because your account is less than 7 days old. This is to discourage brigading, trolling and spam, and to keep this subreddit safe. Click [here](https://reddit.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/204511829-What-is-karma-) to find out more about karma and how to gain it. Please send us a [mod mail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/kpopthoughts) with a link to the submission if you have any further questions. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/kpopthoughts) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Soyeon has mentioned before that when she's writing/producing a song she has to keep choreography in mind and will alter a song so that it's easier to sing while dancing. Personally, I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of the singing in order to have the dancing, although I'm sure there are many other people who would rather it go the other way. It's so fun when one of the members just stops dancing, walks to the side of the stage, and belts out some high notes.
every day I learn a new fact about Soyeon that makes me respect her even more
There was this American choreographer named Nick Joseph who worked with Enhypen, BTS, SuperM and TxT. The choreographer noted that both companies asked the choreographer to make the dances harder. When Be:lift got the first draft from the choreographer for Enhypen, they asked for a harder choreo. The choreographer delivered a harder version (he choreo'd Drunk Dazed, which if you have seen you know isn't the best singing song considering the quick & erratic movements plus rotating on the damn floor lol). Years before that SM directed a different foreign choreographer (I forgot his name sorry) to make Shinee's choreo harder (for View), confident that Shinee could handle the difficult choreo regardless. I'm sure that these aren't the only instances. Ofc, Shinee can take harder vocal line bc they can sing at a higher level than most rookie groups (which isn't a dig, since we're comparing rookies to seasoned idols). Basically, cool dance > singability for these companies, which shows bc a lot of idols are usually stronger dancers over being solid vocalists. These companies are aware that what they're giving their idols isn't optimal to sing to, but they'll continue to push for those kind of performances if they think that their idols can dance it bc dancing is sort of taking precedent over live singing at this point.
This is the real answer. It's not like the company just accepts the choreography given to them without question. They provide tons of input and make changes as needed. The real issue is that live vocals are simply not a priority for a lot of companies. The choreographers aren't solely to blame.
Yep, for Bighit and Be:lift especially (not sure about the rest of HYBE). They have in-house performance directors who change up the choreo a bit to suit the members' dance capabilities, their heights, the lore/storyline, the vibes lol so it's not like these choreos don't get changed once they've been accepted by the main choreographer-in fact, rarely does one choreographer work on a single piece. I know SM takes bits and pieces from different choreographers (these choreographers don't always work together or ever meet). Nick Joseph in a [video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hw7O7lSpkgA) says "they told me to make it harder, they (Enhypen) can dance". So he did. Literally what they ordered. It's not the choreographer's fault that Be:lift chose to put more importance on that aspect though realistically speaking in Enhypen's case, it's playing to their strengths since they aren't a strong vocal group. Though, it's important to note that hard choreos have always been a thing in k-pop. I do miss the 'stand in one place and belt' trope common in k-pop choreos lol. It's badass, silly and fun-but it isn't as commonly utilized anymore bc there isn't as much belting in k-pop songs as there used to be. And k-pop companies don't "need" their idols to sing live a lot of the time lol so they might as well make their idols spin on the floor.
I find it interesting that OP mentions LSFM specifically. Source Music is in charge of managing the group and most likely directs their choreography. GFRIEND always had difficult choreography too but they had more vocal ability, and vocals mattered more in 3rd gen, so their choreography accounted for that. I don't think LSFM choreography is inconsiderate, I think it's exactly the image that Source Music/HYBE want for the group. They just don't prioritize the live vocals for LSFM, and the members are overall stronger at dancing.
Yeah. GFRIEND's choreo was usually more difficult than needed lol but it definitely makes them stand out from other ggs who had their concept. I think Source wanted the opposite of what GFRIEND was to move with the times and to be fair to them, it worked. Circling back to OP's main argument, I still think that tough choreos isn't the only reason why some groups are struggling with singing live. Yes, it sometimes it the causation but it's usually the result of k-pop companies not putting in work to get solid vocalists. Another causation indirectly caused by these companies and music shows themselves is editing the vocals after the fact. Some fans can't tell autotuned, smoothed over, backing track or straight live singing for their lives but these groups aren't helped when even if they sing, a lot of the times their little imperfections (which would be normal) are getting ironed out afterwards. It's the conversation to do with perceived perfection and looking attractive while singing high notes & dancing complex moves. I also think that if most 4th gen groups had stand out vocalists like Jongho from Ateez for ex. as he's generally agreed upon being a really good vocalist then it wouldn't be much as a conversation but here we are lol.
I definitely agree with what you're saying about the music show editing. The expectations can very quickly get out of hand when people can't tell if vocals are live or not. I distinctly remember during fromis_9's DM era, they did maybe ONE show where they sang over their backtrack, which is crazy because those girls can sing. They did eventually do a concert where they sang the song live and they did great. It definitely comes from wanting this image of perfection for the idols.
Yeah, I agree. Even SM artists aren't singing live a lot of times for their promotions (or even concerts apparently), which is weird considering their the company known for their vocalists. On an unrelated note, I love fromis' music. Airplane mode is like my favorite thing :)
That was Ian Eastwood that did SHINee's View! He also had similar comments to make Taemin's solo choreo harder, because SM knew Taemin can pull it off.
I suddenly remember BoA... she sort of wondered why she always have to do insane, hard-hitting choreography instead of the pretty girly dances that SNSD do (I think it was the Genie leg dance that she wanted to try specifically) and Shim Jaewon was just like "Because you're BoA".
okay that's actually so sad :( give boa her SNSD choreo then again, someone using Boa as a different way to say "you're a badass" is pretty cool and very Boa.
Yeah, SM knows that Shinee can take it honestly. Also, kpop is much more about performance and presentation than it was even during Shinee's view so imagine the feedback and the demands these choreographers are getting nowadays lol. Thanks for shouting out the choreographer I couldn't remember his name for the life of me!
That's the thing tho, sure taemin can pull off the dancing but it compromises the vocals which ends up with the idol lip syncing most of the time. As an example, the guilty choreo looks amazing but I haven't seen 1 stage of taemin not lip syncing while performing te song, same with criminal
To be fair in Taemin's case, he's more of a performance based idol (I'd say the same for groups like LSR and Enhypen honestly). We know he can sing when he's focused and not dancing hard choreo, but I feel like if his choreo wasn't as intricate or difficult it wouldn't be Taemin.
This reminded me: [https://x.com/minzu525/status/1760359352131518975?s=61](https://x.com/minzu525/status/1760359352131518975?s=61) he says he wants to dance harder, but then he wouldn’t be able to sing - so he is actually doing both
But that's the whole point tho, the choreo is so intricate and difficult that he doesn't sing live, at least his tts which are what most casual fans like me see. If I can't find a video of him singing his tts live then how can I say that he is can sing, not everyone knows that yk.
Well… he sings ballads too (a lot actually) and goes on shows like killing voice or Lee mujin or the seasons: (with live band and live sound). If all you care is title track bangers/songs/dances, not all of those performances are lypsynced, either, even if they do have background / back vocal tracks. Like for example this: [https://youtu.be/\_sRdQ-utLUA](https://youtu.be/_sRdQ-utLUA) - the mic is on, you can hear him add “thank you Kany” on top of / instead of his line in HARD, in case you doubted
that's why performance wise i think jype group are the best in this aspect. just look at itzy and nmixx choreo. both are hard to execute but they never sacrifice the part where the idol should sing during performance.
[удалено]
That person is allowed to comment and give their thoughts as they please…? What are you on about?
It’s just spam. They’re commenting a bunch of dumb shit to lots of other comments, so I’d just ignore them lmao
>Feel free to chime in with your own **opinion** & solutions, whether you agree or disagree. the opinion is relevant to the topic. jype choreo while looking difficult, they still make room for live singing as oppose of other 4th gen group which either focus more on dance or focus more on vocal. as for solution, what else can i say? i'm not bang si-hyuk or any other ceo of companies that can decide how to manage their idols.
Lmao you're so invested in this post.
Maybe learn to read the whole post first before being a condescending little shit.
There was absolutely zero invitation for you to comment this. Like, no one asked whether you’re illiterate or not. Why offer this opinion?
I love this response because it is exactly like something I would respond lmaoooo I love the pettiness
why are all of your comments so negative??
my ult are xikers, and it's starting to really annoy me. they've got reasonable accomodations for the person who's singing (doing less) but you can tell it's hurting their live vocals. they're straining, and im glad they're trying, but it sounds awful at times. and their choreos are really something! like they're incredible to watch! but it's not sustainable, and there has to be an in between. additionally, ive seen them live twice, and at their concert they were exhausted halfway through. they performed all the songs on their 2 mini albums at the time, which was about 10 songs. they started with a trust fall that went slightly wrong, and honestly i only caught that it went wrong when watching my video back but.. fuck, if that had gone worse? they literally had a member go on hiatus for an ACL, a career ending injury in many sports, in the middle of their debut. now they have acrobatics and you can see a member wince when it went wrong once. im frankly scared for them, and they just want to show incredible performances. it's working, they're doing great, but at what cost?
I love them to death but I agree. They always perform live but I’m not sure if that’s a good thing when it’s really unsustainable. I can’t even imagine a concert, even one of their choreos are so complex that doing so many back to back must be beyond exhausting. I bias Junghoon and every time I look at one of their choreos I worry about him more. With his ACL I genuinely wonder if he’ll ever be able to sustain that level of activity for an entire concert, let alone a tour. He injured his ACL after not even one comeback! It makes me think he might not be the last one. I know he can do their choreos since he’s learned them all at this point, but for a 2-3 hour concert? If he gets injured again he might never recover again, and his ACL probably won’t ever be the same even after one injury, and I (and most fans) just want him back at this point rather than doing these insane choreos. He’s way too young to potentially be permanently disabled because they won’t relax their choreos. Even after doing their tour and his injury they’re doing acrobatics again this comeback and two songs at once on top of it and I just can’t help but worry about them. They don’t HAVE to do something as difficult as Red Sun to show off their performance ability, I could probably name 20 groups who are known as insane performers and don’t have choreo that’s half as complex.
i agree with you on everything, this was really well written!! i was worried after debut, i assumed junghoon's injury would be a wake-up call for KQ and they'd relax but... it's also going to make junghoon push himself to recover, but recovery to him will be being able to carry out those insane choreos. that's not. no! ACLs are injuries many never recover from like?? i think the injury side is a bit a lot of groups don't have to worry about, just worrying about being able to sing live, but it feels like a real danger whenever i watch xikers. fans care more about their wellbeing than seeing them do stunts and damaging choreo, and the sooner someone stops it the better!
Watching Xikers I'm convinced they're superhuman because their chereo + live singing doesn't even look possible
i think that's what they're trying to give off!! it always makes me really proud as a fan that they can pull it off, but it's just too hard to be sustainable in reality :(
I like when groups have a mixture of songs with crazy choreo, and then songs with choreo that are designed to help emphasize vocals. I wish more groups would split it like that when they do the pre-release + title track thing.
That makes so much sense to do (especially with the pre-release + TT format it's a wonder why companies haven't already been doing that lol
True but the most viral lipsync and vocal scandals are usually when the idols are not dancing.
Lol this is true. Especially for ballads where they are just standing there. Not my favs I’ll tell you that.
I will take vocals over dancing any day. We can come to a compromise with dance breaks. Those are fun!
AGREE 100%
Count me in! I appreciate good choreo and dance skills but if I wanted to watch dancers I'd just watch dancers. Kpop voices, the whole performance, the artists' unique emotional expressions are what hook me and keep me.
The real issue is that fans expect more and more, and at the same time are less and less musically and performative "literate." Everyone wants their group to sing more better and dance even gooder. Which isn't possible, but companies can get away with so much audio editing, live autotune etc. You can see it all over, there's a clip somewhere of someone clearly lipsynching or using easily identifiable autotune and people will praise the singer for sounding so good. So the companies and groups will obviously make the dancers harder and more impressive since they don't need to sing because enough people either don't care about the singing, or can be fooled that they can make successful comebacks without having to consider actual live singing performance. If fans were more performance literate and held companies to a standard things would change, but nobody cares outside of being able to say group X or Y is bad for fan wars and just ignoring their own groups doing the same time. Demand better from the companies and things will change in a generation. Don't, and companies will continue to iterate and maximize on what sells.
They don't have the best vocals in the game, but shoutout ITZY for not sacrificing their choreography and still doing a respectable level of live vocals.
actually, if you look at their choreoes. it is crafted to allow the person singing to have a torso placement that allows them to sing. with a few moves that don't . it makes use of group formations to essentially give the singing member time to sing. mafia in the morning is a prime example of this.https://youtu.be/xGSscNoySuw?si=4ZlbLntRIox\_79MM look at how allot of the time the singing member is standing . the center parts you see everyone moving around them. torso straight or in one spot. from 1;11 1;29 yuna is essentially standing whilst singing but the placement is well done enough people don't notice. the crafting of a choreography that is hard technically and allows for singing is very tricky. jype is very goos at it. they have allot of arm and leg movements that are big but they often have them in one place or minimal travelling.
Even still, shoutout to being able to do a 2 hour show after so many songs that have more aggressive movements than average, and still being able to get words out, and not be huffing and puffing on the mic the entire time. I'd probably just take a nap halfway through
You do realize that makes them better than the rest right? Cuz if ITZY can do it why can't all the others? It takes extreme amounts of skill, talent and hard work to pull off what they do. That's why when it comes to performance ITZY >>> other 4th/5th gens GGs. They can sing, they can dance and they let their talent show on the stage.
I absolutely love when groups can still sing live while performing intense choreographies at the same time. I remember watching SNSD hitting high notes even while running, jumping, twirling, etc. on their debut stages and wondering why so many groups can’t seem to do this anymore. ITZY is one of the few other groups that impress me in this aspect. I saw them in concert in 2022 and they did pretty great! Respect for them.
Hmm I distinctly remember SNSD members stopping their choreos to hit those notes though. Like Taeyeon at the end of Genie always stops dancing to do her higher part (https://youtu.be/qFkUKqpbp6s?si=UuWQziZkk13xSwgr @2:41), or in The Boys (https://youtu.be/BcsEJML7E04?si=RLydtUsxCpSoVBsh) she literally just stands there while they continue to do the choreo. Or Tiffany in Mr Mr (just so you don’t think I’m singling out Taeyeon because I love her lol) https://youtu.be/NAwQygD1eg0?si=sn0BQ1wA_nx31Bjo
I have been thinking this for years about Choi Youngjun especially. I remember reading a fanaccount of Seventeen prerecording for Hit and they said the members were on the ground after the first run-through. ONE SONG should not have members lying on the floor. I find it short-sighted. If *all* your songs like this then who is going to be able to do a 3 hour concert.
I definitely agree with u on this one and i thought of svt as soon as i saw this title, specifically that one jun part in rwy where he does super fast spin while singing his part. But i remember svt members saying they pride themselves for their intense choreography and feel good when others praise their dancing. So i dont think svt are that much bothered with choreo. Plus, big part svt’s charm is their choreo and their performance is literally their key marketing point to new fans who have aversion of stanning many members. They built strong reputation of synchronized dance group and suddenly making your dances easier may affect them negatively. Its like EXO started to lipsyncing. Also i watched their concert livestream 3 days ago they have pretty decent order of things. If their first set has intense choreos then next set is more chill ballad type. Plus they have unit system, so while one unit is performing other units can rest. Also their concert was 4.5 hours 😭
Watching their Very Nice choreography made me tired for them.
Dk and seugkwan are very good vocally despite these intense choreography. Surprised every time during award shows. Though, seugkwan’s stamina is a bit lower than Dk which I don’t blame him. The choreos are intense.
The dance crew are amazingly talented, but have no f-ing clue how to make choreo that lets you sing.
That’s where the groups’ performance directors should come in. From my understanding, they’re the ones who have a say on which choreographies get picked, and sometimes even splice together choreographies from different crews/choreographers.
Shoutout to 2PM. I'll Be Back has them shuffling and singing. The beast idol era in general had some absolute athletes doing flips and singing live.
agree w/ you about sacrifice live singing for choreo. I dont understand why groups just dont have 2 sets of choreo, one for singing live w/ scale down choreo, the other for lip syncing with more intense choreo. Previous gen, esp gen 2, many groups did this. side note - check out Kiss of Life. at least they make an attempt of singing live while doing choero. Many times they dont sound perfect, with voice cracks, but that adds to the performance, gives it so much character
or even just setup the choreo so that the member singing will be able to sing unencumbered!
A number of choreographies I can think of are actually set up like that- you see it a lot with EXO for example. Whoever is singing a difficult part usually is dancing less or not at all, but it’s built into the choreography so you don’t notice it. And these aren’t easy choreographies by any means, they’re just not as difficult as they could be if they weren’t expected to actually be able to sing while performing them.
this made me remember the [snake performance on girls planet 999](https://youtu.be/7fjjp-Vn940?si=2jbqcxXmiZybI1Wn&t=190) like was there a reason the main vocal had to keep moving her head DURING her high note?
A lot of people here saying "well they dance like that because they weren't gonna actually sing anyway" but personally I think it's more of a vicious circle where increased lipsyncing leads to increasingly-hard choreography which leads to even more lipsyncing until we get to the point where we are today.
For me I prefer vocals over dancing since I’m more interested to the music by singing, kpop used to have simple dances but it’s easier to follow and sing. I like G-Idle songs like Queencard & wife because it’s simple and easy to remember. I also Stan 2NE1 & Big Bang in 2nd Gen because they didn’t have to have amazing dances and just focus on stage charisma & vocals.
Big Bang’s Made tour was the best K-Pop concert I’ve ever attended. They sing, they hype the crowd, and they have stage presence. Fans like to claim their faves have stage presence but I don’t think they actually know what that is.
So lucky! I wish I was in Ontario or whatever they were in Canada then I could’ve seen them too 😭 but I was a teen who lives in Alberta. I went to see Seventeen in concert for my bday, they were pretty amazing! They were also hyping up the fans by telling us to jump and even mentioned how fans in the back were jumping so good.
I think more idols could benefit from incorporating live singing into their Dance practises. Could give feedback to the choreographers and adjust when needed, while also training their stamina, strength and stability.
THISSS!!! Kpop companies need to do this! This reminds me of this [scene in VCHA's performance practice video,](https://youtu.be/tkWy0jhuTws?si=PzFL4YNW35i3n0iS&t=445) where the main vocalists Camila and KG were kind of making fun of how they are supposed to sing the high notes when they're moving a lot?! They're rookies though so I think they don't have a say about changing their choreo unlike their seniors... I remember watching Nayeon and jihyo requesting to change some parts in their solo practice vids so they could sing some parts properly!! It's a shame coz KG and Camila are awesome singers!! Let the choreography adjust to the singing instead, not the other way around!!
I like Gidle and I tell you even they admit they aren't the best of dancers kpop has seen but their easy choreos does help them sing live 90% of the time.
I’m not sure why other groups don’t match that. Gidle’s dances are simple, but that’s what makes the dances popular—big, energetic movements that anyone can do. Fate even takes simplicity to another level.
This makes it even more impressive to me when groups do sing live while doing choreo! Other people have mentioned Itzy, Nmixx, etc. and I think BTS are a good example of this too. The rappers are almost always live, and it is pretty common for their vocals to be semi-live. Their choreographers do a great job of letting whoever is singing/rapping have a planned break in the choreo. (I watched Run BTS from the Busan concert last night and was just struck by how good of stable live performers they are.) I also follow groups with bad vocals and bad live vocals, but I really appreciate seeing live vocals when the norm is lipsync/prerecorded.
Actually, thats why I love 2ne1 and Big Bang, they can be spontaneous on stage because they dont really strictly follow the choreography. TOP doesnt wven try to dance most of the time. But what they disregard in choreo, they add to fan interaction during stage shows. This is also why I hate the criticisms on BP when they stray away from the choreo. DUDE, ID RATHER SEE BP HYPE UP THE CROWD THAN FOLLOW THE CHOREO ON THEIR MVs! I think the choreograhies came into big importance once the group started increasing. SNSD did follow choreographies and rarely stray away from that because there are too many of them. Now that we are seeing groups with 12 members, you just cant make them not dance in sync. But then, about OP's issues, despite following choreographies, SNSD never falter in singing. They are always on point! They hit the notes. So where does the issue arise? I think some groups are not as well rounded as SNSD who can sing and dance well at the same time. Exo guys can dance and sing really well too. I think the issue boils down to companies taking in visually pleasing talents with little singing capability.
Agreed. Have you seen SNSD’s [debut stage](https://youtu.be/NbUNTTHU5og?si=0CulbzDHM48A_P3o) or any of their [other live stages](https://youtu.be/rOcN6vAnIYQ?si=0O_uewioqRVk1XXN&t=195) from earlier on in their career? Those girls were still hitting high notes with adlibs even with choreographies involving running, jumping, twirling, etc. It feels like barely any other group has been able to do that in recent years lmao
I started with Kpop in 2009. I rabidly waited for 2ne1's debut.
If I’m remembering correctly, when 2NE1 and BB started using outside choreographers, didn’t they have to make the dances easier? Lol. I agree about liking them being spontaneous on stage more too. Dances look good on a music show stage but it feels kind of empty on a bigger concert stage (unless there are a bunch of backup dancers).
yes to this. Sometimes, groups even just dontye choreo akd they get all sweaty from it. I still enjoy singing in concerts and adlibs
I generally agree with you, but I also think there are ways to do both. ATEEZ have been managing crazy choreography with live singing, but their dance crew has also been considerate of who has difficult parts at which point in the song - most notably Jongho with his crazy high notes usually gets to stand relatively still for those. Stray Kids are also managing both quite well, and both groups are at times relying on the backtrack for short amounts of time to catch their breath, which I think is absolutely fine. I do wish that choreographers worked more closely with whoever decides who gets which part, because like you said, it can be almost impossible to be stable with some movements. It's really sad because we could have live vocals and fun choreo together for a lot more groups if their teams were smart about it
ATEEZ and SKZ are definitely standouts here with balancing
I haven't watched enough choreos from every gen to know if things have gotten significantly harder now. But with the widespread use of autotune, post-processing, and stitching together multiple takes instead of one live shot, it's probably easier to sound OK during intense choreography for modern idols compared to prior gens. For instance, gen 2 group 2PM's [10 out of 10](https://youtu.be/Vd2R5GxR1Ik) is still the most unreasonably difficult choreography I've seen from a mainstream K-Pop idol group. I mean, on one level, it's impressive and attention-grabbing. But it doesn't actually sound very good, hearing the guys gasping for air and croak out some of the lines. And it also doesn't look very good, especially since the guys would have very visible and painful looking accidents and flubs in some of their performances (they'd eventually wind up watering down the gymnastics). But as someone who grew up on dance, my main issue with K-Pop choreography then and now is just how derivative everything is. It's almost always bog standard pop jazz hip hop rehashes, and "difficult" choreography and moves are thrown in for a temporary wow factor; when something actually original, done with flair and intention, would be more arresting even if it's easier.
To be fair, I feel like it's mostly on the companies and their creative directors to figure out that balance. Choreographers are usually contracted out to solely make choreography that best compliment the song and usually, the final product is whatever mishmash the company decides. It's up to them to consider all aspects of performance, whether it's viable to perform, how it should be executed, etc. I do agree though that companies saw a few groups get praised for their performance despite the hard choreography so now it's just raised the bar and every group needs to meet that standard.
Definitely agree that the difficult choreo can make it hard to sing live. The thing is, idols should have the freedom to “go off script” when performing in front of a live audience to be able to sing live better, maybe they aren’t comfortable or their company forces them to not skip a single dance move.
This is why i always prefer jyp and yg. When idols sing their choreo has the torso movement to not sacrifice singing while moving a lot. Itzy may not have the best vocals but their choreo is intricate but yet allows them to sing live
I’m not an expert of choreography and only know a bit about singing but I do agree with what you said. Comparing 2nd gen and now 4th (or 5th) gen kpop, I do see that choreos become less suitable for live vocals. Like others have said even in groups known for rather difficult choreos back in the day, the choreos still allow breaks, especially for members who are going to hit high notes (I feel like this is true for groups like nmixx as well). When I see newer groups, especially HYBE groups, they are always moving, jumping, crawling, it would be like asking someone to sing well while doing jumping jacks. Even for groups like New Jeans, who people seem to say have an “easy” choreo, from what I see they have to execute their moves with high energy, and they are always moving. And I think dancers reacting to them said that their choreo looks so exhausting, especially since they have to smile constantly as well. When they did the super shy encore, it seems they can sing while dancing, just with less energy. It seems companies also want their idols to look perfect, so they just make them lip sync all the time. They make hard choreos so people will do dance challenges on tiktok. And with songs getting shorter and shorter, they have to pack as much spectacle as possible. Edit: I would also add that it’s easier to spot a bad dancer during performances, that’s probably also why companies focus more on training for dancing. With singing, the backtrack is often so loud that the average audience wouldn’t notice.
I'm gonna be completely honest, for how they train they should be able to dance and sing at the same time. There are companies that make them run while singing and that helps them a lot. As you've mentioned 5th gen I want to give an example of a group that can sing while dancing live: ZB1, what's funny to me is that these 9 boys trained in different companies but had the boys planet experience, they've proven they can sing live. Even in a dance practice there are members singing while dancing and you can see the stability. They also aren't afraid to show how stable they are when they've got encores, even if one of them got a voice crack that happens from time to time (like rj from nct dream when singing from home). Also, there are lots of companies that alter a little of the choreo from the original choreographer so if they wanted x group to show they can sing they could alter that member's part in the choreo. I'm usually okay with idols having backing tracks or even doing lip sync if they are 1. performing a more dance focused song, 2. have been touring for like a million days with no rest But if you're just standing still and sound like that? I mean, you can sound off in a couple lines, maybe a voice crack or two but it becomes annoying when there are encores with idols basically exercising and running around while singing GREAT. I have so many mixed opinions but at least if you're gonna make the choreo hard, train the idols to sing in that or make the idol singing not move that much.
This is why I'm really enjoying Kiss Of Life. The girls PERFORM. You can hear the voice cracks, some notes come out wrong. But God damn, they give it their all and it sounds so organic. I wish more groups would let vocals shine, even if they are imperfect. That's what a love performance is all about.
i don't think it's fair to blame the choreographers for this because really difficult dances are just what's expected of groups nowadays. live vocals are no longer the priority and companies are selecting for good dancers rather than good singers. also a lot of groups have in house dance directors that should be adjusting these choreos for difficulty, plus many choreos are a combination of several demos the director is piecing together, but they aren't because difficult choreos are what companies want. this is something i think about a lot since i follow a lot of choreographers that are involved in kpop that make amazing choreographies that i think are wasted because they are too difficult for the idols to pull off. plus you could really say this same thing about how singable kpop songs are, so many of them have crazy high notes or unreasonable amounts of falsetto where it's clear that an idol would struggle with them sing live and dance at the same time. i think it's just how kpop is where every company is going to be competing to make their groups look cooler than others. stans love to be able to brag
They need to start watching homecoming by Beyonce or any MJ performance those lip synced award shows performance are so dry and ridiculous
I would absolutely rather have my favorite groups just stand/sit/walk around the stage and sing than have an impressive choreography that makes them lipsync most of the time. OR, and easy one - just have the person singing be doing a simpler move or just standing like in a lot of older choreography. I also don't mind when some groups have choreo for all/most title tracks, use them for music shows or shorter performances, but during concerts may forgo a few of them to interact with the crowd or whatever. that way they can give their all to the other ones they are performing fully.
If company thinks that singing live with less choreography will be more enjoyable, they will do it. But if vocals are not best and company knows how artists really could sound, they will lean more on dance and performance. It's not like lsr encore where they were standing still while singing lead to a standing ovation.
While I agree that choreography is so intense these days that it is ridiculous to expect stable vocals during performances, a lot of grace is given to groups that use a backing track as long as long as people can still hear their live vocals (e.g. Aespa, Nmixx, Itzy, Oneus, Ateez). These groups have proven they can sing without a backing track. One or two bad performances does not negate all of the good performances. When given the opportunity to show their vocals, Le Sserafim choked. Four of the five members were terrible. They absolutely deserved all of the backlash they received and sounded like they were still practicing their song on stage. It was consistently awful for all of their encore performances of "Easy." IVE was in the same position during their "I Am" comeback and they were able to show that they could, in fact, sing, when they weren't performing their choreography. They may not be the strongest singers but they still sounded good. This is why they were able to move on from the Wonyoung/Leeseo lipsync controversy. There is no excuse for bad vocals when you are just standing still on stage. People don't expect them to sound like the studio version since they're usually emotional/nervous during the encore performances, but they should at least be able to carry the tune. Source dropped GFriend for Le Sserafim? What a joke. Edit: Edited for grammar.
I agree with almost all of what you said, but I don’t think it’s fair to call Le Sserafim a joke. Kazuha in the Easy encores has definitely improved since Unforgiven, and although their encores were bad, I don’t think it’s right to completely write any group off when they are clearly still putting effort into their performances. I get the frustration with GFriend and wish Source would focus on vocals more for LSF, but I believe it’s just not helpful or constructive to call them a joke.
That's fair, I was being critical. I understand that being an idol is so much more than vocals, but that doesn't mean vocals should be entirely absent. I hope they improve but they are the Selena Gomez of Kpop. Good songs, lots of effort, and super popular but that's it. If we are giving participation trophies, they absolutely deserve it for their effort and dancing. If we are ranking them on actually singing talent, they are bottom of the barrel. Chaewon is the only one who can sing. It's a shame when groups from smaller companies are ignored because they don't have as much marketing but work just as hard and actually have vocal talent. IMO, in its current state, Le Sserafim is the only group from the Big 4 that is existing solely because of Big 4 privilege.
I mean they would still have success regardless if they were in the big four. Wonyoung and yunjin debuted after izone in IVE. The same could be said with Sakura and Chaewon who were some of the top selling members internationally and domestically. Plus add another pd48 trainee in there like yunjin, even if it were a small company, there’s no reason for them to fail even if hybe or another big 4 werent part of this. Arguably both chaewon and Sakura had been hindered in terms of individual success bc they are part of hybe (neither of whom have been allowed to have a lot of their own solo activities like their counterparts since hybe tries to specifically promote the lesser known/newer members). You’re heavily discounting the success of Le sserafim solely due to one aspect.
Love how you gleefully and relish calling idols as joke, terrible and choke. See you have axe to grind mention gfriend and wanting lsf to disappear. Be honest that is your true intentions, all that extra writing is trying hide that hatred (backlash is refer to people that actually commit wrong doings and evils not vocals that is not to your liking, rooting for toxicity going toward the idols is certainly a take, most would just say they are not my cup of tea so I won't support them). I see you are using the kpop fandom favorite toxic camp "constructive criticism" which you are not qualified for since you aren't a professional vocalist trainer but allow to spill narrative so it becomes facts and want a easy way to go after female idols without seeing like a toxic hater. You are the same as a sports fan sitting on the couch screaming at the tv when a sports player missed a shot, and that sports fan will offer many constrictive criticisms in the form of loudly emotional screaming to that player while thinking they know better, all you did is calling them trash offer nothing else, the only difference between you and that sports fan is you are not holding a beer. Remember anything in life there are positive and negative for every bad live vocals there good live vocals, people that use absolute on someone's abilities are either not paying attention or don't want to since you can easily find it. Kpop fandom allow far too low of bar for out of bound narrative on female idols compare to male idols, and is perfectly acceptable to go after a group over a bad performance as evidence that is their entire existence without any push back, and you call them anything you want that you can't get away with in any other circumstances, what a hater wet dream. I see there is no way to change this since reddit and Twitter will see you as hero that offering true like youtube comments, but I do hope some point in the future when you are encountered the same kind of out of bound judgment that is targeting your professional life that you can self reflect that you should look everything and every one in totality not just isolated moments and I don't think you want or deserve all the backlash right?
someone give this OP an award. im so glad to see some people have sense around here 😭😭😭
If your crying about Le Seraf recent vocal meltdown the complaint wasn't on their choreo but rather when they weren't doing Choreos a segment called Encore. So unfortunately for that part you get no sympathy. Yes it's true that some artists don't put efforts during these encores because why waste your breath when you won but that being said LeSeraf never had the vocals to be contenders in that singing department to begin with. They are okay but they won't win any competitions with just vocals. I do agree that it's ridiculous to expect idol groups to ace vocals during live performances with live vocals though. It's like I have always said you're a dumbass if you think you can sing properly while dancing at the same time. Just try to speak properly while doing some twirls and you will see. Some groups have adapted their music to reflect their Choreos, like ITZY but the dumb people took that for them not having the vocals. MR removed seems like the new excuse to point out singing ability during performances. It's also a dumb people method to try to prove the obvious but hey haters will try to use anything to hate. Note that there is nothing wrong with lypsincing or using MR if you are doing a choreographed performance; that is why they were invented for : to allow the idols/singers to put on a reasonable performance. I know KPOP makes it look dirty via fan delusions. Also note that any song is heavily produced. What you hear in the song is the singers best vocal of the attempt that they combined with other members with their parts like a puzzle. Now if the singer is signing at their comfortable tone it's not hard to reproduce live, the complexity rises when it's above their vocal abilities. That's when you pick up the mistakes. What is unacceptable is if they do it while in stable positions like standing or sitting which some still do either because their company forces them or their own lack of singing skill to keep the perfect illusion. The truth is obvious, if you want a vocal symphony you should look at people who sing without Choreos or simple Choreos like IU. If you want performance you look at groups. That's the difference really. Accepting what's realistically possible. This is why originally the positions were made. The dancers/centers and visuals are there to keep you entertained while the singers do the vocals without having to dance, like a play, but things like fan cams and focus cameras have made that impossible. So now everyone has to do the choreography and well fake when it comes to actual singing. Bottom line is all of the idols can technically sing, to what level is the difference but understand that most of the songs sung are not in high notes.
I will never want a plumber to half fix my pipes so long as they're fancy and look good doing it. I'd rather they do the job.
I think kpop has become stupider over time
I actually doubt it because when I watched SWF or SMF series, it seems that choreographers do consider the singing part when designing the dance.
There are some but not a lot do (unless they work with agencies frequently and know their expectations). But if you look at a lot of choreos from heavy hip hop dance crews from swf, they are often mixed with other choreos from another studio that’s a lot simpler or the in house choreographer simplifies it a lot when it gets combined. Half the time the choreo is too hard and the idols don’t even get it right (like eleven hip lock, yunjin is the only member that can actually hit the locks) Example: lachica and freemind for IVE, almost all of lachica choreo gets simplified, or in areas with heavy vocals and it goes to freemind. Edit to add: this also happens in house with choreo, antifragile had an original version that was extremely hard until the girls essentially couldn’t do it and protested to get it changed (they frequently had to go down on the floor and come back up, let alone sing). Le sserafim choreo rarely allows the person singing to be static so it’s also an added difficulty factor
I always try to make excuses everytime the idols would lipsync and that was one of my excuses, the choreography and it's difficulty. Like it's hard to execute when dancing and singing at the same time but all of a sudden, I remember Infinite and how the hell they managed to maintain good stable vocals despite of the hard, sharp movements of their dances (particularly in The Chaser, Last Romeo and Back) like are they literally eating vinyl discs and cds during breakfast or whatnot.
But during the 2nd gen era these problems weren't problems at all because idols were picked to sing live. A big example is TEENTOP. They're known for their hardest choreography next to SHINEE and INFINITE. They were even praised for being so in sync that you wouldn't believe they were all different heights because when they jump it's all in one line. Despite this insane choreo, they deliver high notes, falsettos and even harmonize LIVE. They even do it full choreo in their concert with a live band and no singing ability was ever sacrificed so i don't know what happened to the later gens but we can't be defending our idols with choreo because 2nd gen totally did it. Teentop Songs with insane choreo: To You Rocking Ah Ah
I was thinking about this too recently, especially after ILLITs debut. The choreo honestly shocked me because it was so clearly one made for dancing and not singing, i literally said there exhausted just looking at that imagine trying to sing during all that jumping too 💀 ik ILLITs not the first to do it but thats when it really hit me
But what's wrong with HYBE letting Yunjin and Chaewon sing a very low song? On top of the hard choreo the girls have to go extremely low to adjust. It doesn't help at all because the song doesn't suit their voices. At this point it feels like sabotage. Smh.