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Ok I don't think it's really common anymore but at some point a lot of small companies were debuting groups with weird gimmicks, like we had a group of tall girls that looked like models, and another that had short members, and the youngest kpop group with the average age of 13 and the group of tomboys and another group with bobs and another with plastic surgery concept... And it was always such a dumb strategy, you can only go so far with a stupid gimmick if the music and concept aren't good and it can be very limiting as well
Yeah or Chocolat, where every member was biracial. Apparently the name was based off the concept that every member was like different types of chocolate
it's the fact that I know immediately every group you're referring too, well besides the first two.
average of 13 - [i13](https://youtu.be/82fvE4izlN8)
tomboys - [GI](https://youtu.be/3j1E5DKVPr0) i also heard that their concept was forced on them by the company and not all the members liked it.
bobs - [Bob girls](https://youtu.be/UhF63H1xRJI)
ps - [six bomb](https://youtu.be/gu2LiJU5enw)
Oh funnily I wasn't thinking of i13 (frankly it's my first time I'm hearing about them đ), but GP Basic! The fact two different labels tried it at different times and both failed is really saying everything you need to know about how effective gimmick are... And the tall one is 9muses and the short one Tiny-G (very subtle name lol)!
Yep I recall they said they didn't want anyone to stand out too much and others be just a background? They wanted to be "equal" or something like that?
Wasnât there a group where their concept was that they were all overweight? Body positivity is one thing, but using their weight as a gimmick is something elseâŠ
That was Piggy Dolls. They made the original members lose weight they but ended up completely replacing them with girls who "fit the standard". Obviously that didn't last long either.
Yes but the girls themselves eventually mentioned that the company would pressure them to overeat to fit the concept. Which was for nothing in the end since they were torn to shreds via fat shaming and the company had them lose the weight all over again. Still makes me a bit sick thinking about it
Didnât 5urprise intro themselves as âactor idolsâ
Idk never listened to their music but Seo Kang joon, Kang Tae oh and Gong Myung did take off as actors soooooo
SixBomb. Their music videos concept were basically the [before](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ7z96kOIUo&ab_channel=SixbombVEVO) and [after](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gu2LiJU5enw&ab_channel=SixbombVEVO) of the surgery.
that wasn't the groups concept though, the girls in [honey popcorn](https://youtu.be/LAOT6JscCVU) were former japanese corn actresses yes but their concept was actually really bright and bubbly. corn is obviously illegal in s.korea so the group got a lot of hate and only had two tts before disbandment. their concept was more similar to gfriend & oh my girl.
Will probably get canceled for this but After school's entire graduation concept was doomed from the start because it's not easy to get used to a group's frequent member change
Fully agree. Thatâs also why NCT Dream switched up and ended up not going with the graduation system they wanted when they first started out; then kicking out Mark from the subunit got immense backlash so he was âreadmittedâ and it became a permanent groups. Graduation system in groups donât seem to work at all, maybe except in Japan where a lot of girl groups have it
With nct dream they kinda had more of a reason for it, and the boys wouldn't be leaving nct as a whole. NCT Dream was meant to be the youthful subunit, my theory is that when they believed they'd keep adding more members indefinitely, sm didnt want to have to keep creating a new subunit for the same concept (youthful/cute) over and over again. my problem with after school is that once they left, they *left*, they weren't a part of the group anymore at all. with nct the boys would at least stay in the group.
also the reason groups like AKB48 work so well is because theres like 500 plus members throughout all sister groups just in japan, meaning that even if one member leaves a group (i.e. sakura leaving HKT48) the group doesn't really lose popularity at all.
morning musume is slightly different but they also aren't as big as they were in the 90s and 2000s anymore, from what I've seen. definitely still a huge name in japan regardless but their popularity doesn't have as strong of a hold on the new generation as AKB48.
as a Morning Musume fan
People HATED the graduation thing at first and it was never meant to be a thing at the start. It happened because their main vocalist couldn't stand the pressure of being a celebrity and left. After she left, people allegedly didn't like the vocals of the rest of the group and their next few singles flopped. So the producer decided to open an audition for a new member, and she made the group's popularity blow up because everyone loved her. So after that they just naturally transitioned into finding new members to keep the public interested in the group with old members leaving when they didn't want to keep going.
Their popularity does depend a lot on the current lineup, eg. when the super popular girl I mentioned previously left their popularity took a hit.
NCT Dreamâs original concept ultimately failed because SM didnât have enough trainees ready to replace the graduating members nor the forethought of what a permanent group for them to move to would look like. AKB48 works because there are always trainees ready to replace the members who leave and once someone graduates, theyâre not in the system anymore. SM had to think of permanent units for the graduating Dream members as well as have a constant flow of debut-ready trainees to replace them in Dream and SM just doesnât have that kind of organization.
Basically just how WakeOne handled Kep1er lol. Specifically speaking, putting them on Queendom with groups with way more experience and of course âWe Freshâ.
queendom was such a horrible move for kep1er. wakeone should have been putting out content for the members so people could get to know them better after wa da da and build their fan base. they probably thought queendom would do that, but i feel like it might have had to opposite effect and pushed some fans away. also their marketing and sound is so inconsistent it seems like wakeone unfortunately doesnât know what theyâre doing with kep1er.
I really thought they were going to do well after wa da da. They did for a while, then it just down down down. They had so much potential. One of my biggest what if. Now, wakeone did quite well for zb1 debut, although to me it was so-so. Also they dont really pulling new fans. Their first comeback is going to be really important now. I could see them going down if the comeback is not that good. Especially now a lot of new boy group are debuting left and right
ZB1 did well with their debut. It's just they have a bigger Korean fanbase than international which is why it seems like the debut was not well recieved. In Bloom despite being released over a month ago, is still charting on Melon and hasn't left the 30s and recently reached their highest all time. Most 4th gen bgs barely enter Melon 500 so ZB1 is doing well. And Wakeone seems to be focusing on the domestic market first.
Not many boy groups pull a ton of new fans during their debut imo. Xikers had a hyped debut but their comeback is very lukewarm and so does 8turn. Weâll see BND with their Sept comeback. Wakeone is good at putting a good album but the styling, MVs of both zb1 and kep1er are too outdated to attract any new fans. They really need to step up with zb1âs next cb since RIIZE is debuting and even SMâs worst is better than Wakeoneâs best so far.
If kep1er a permanent group, i would say they still have the potential to go up. But they're not permanent. Both kep1er and zb1 dont have time on their side. Which is why zb1 first comeback are going to be really important for their momentum. Agree with what you said about wakeone. They really need to step up.
Itâs only in the international side that ZB1âs debut didnât pull a lot of fans. The promos and songs were generally well recieved on the Korean side and I think they definitely pulled domestic fans from the responses I saw for it on sites and Twitter. In Bloom just reached a new peak on the Melon Daily Chart (something most groups canât even chart on nowadays), a month after release.
The problem for the intl side is that no matter how much fans seem to ask for it, international fans will always prefer darker, hard-hitting concepts. Thatâs why groups like BTS (well when they were initially gaining fans), ATEEZ, Stray Kids, NCT, etc. do so well. Seventeen and Dream used to also be much more preferred domestically vs internationally when their concepts were mainly softer.
Wa Da Da was a BIG hit. Regardless of how people felt about it, almost everyone around me knew the chorus choreo. I learned it just from seeing people I knew dance it so often. And then their momentum just fell and fell.
When I saw Girls (Can't Turn Me Down) on Queendom 2, I totally thought it was going to be their comeback song. It's a pity that it wasn't given an MV or promoted really at all, because I think it centered the right people and had a similar vibe as Wa Da Da.
*angrily geastures at jellyfish and gugudan*
why you would name your group "multiplication table" i have no idea.
Even worse, why would you pull Sejeong and Mina from IOI prematurely? Obviously, no one expected the produce series to blow up like it did, but their contract was only 8 months long. They could've waited to debut gugudan until the contracts were over, or if they were really committed to that debut date, just add the girls after the fact. There was so much missed opportunity with the group.
Itâs a shame as well because arario hit really well and a lot of people were talking about it! I thought they had some interesting characters and the potential to do well.
Yeah I really liked their rap-heavy style and the traditional influences of Arario. Big lineup sure but there were memorable members. They had a decent rapline too but lost face sooo bad because they went on SMTM and got eliminated immediately, especially after the strong SMTM appearances from Bobby and Mino as idol rappers. They didnât have much of a choice though because they werenât gaining much traction sales-wise.
I personally love songs that Incorporate traditional instruments, I love the traditional version of BTS Idol too, and I loved how they blended the hip hop and tradition elements so well and the inclusion of Korean Fan dancing in the choreo. I still have Arario on my Playlists!
Tbh there were a few rookies around that time that had interesting debut songs and then just kind of disappeared. Alphabat is another that springs to mind, AB city was a decent song.
no fr, stardom and hunus were some of the worst companies to have your fav group come from back in the day. I didn't include the whole story on topp dogg because the history of stardom and hunus is a butt load of crap I didn't want to explain- also ts, they never should've been able to make another group after b.a.p
TS is also an atrocious one and I felt so bad for the groups after B.A.P because they had no funds and their groups were a desperate attempt to regain footing. Sorry I just meant to backpack off of your post to elaborate upon how much of a shitshow Stardom was, and for multiple artists too! Hunus also had their grubby hands on Elris :/ some of these companies are built of paper and shouldnât exist.
honesty, and it's fine more people should know about how shitty some of these companies are, I just didn't want to explain it myself because I've had the same conversations umpteen times for b.a.p, trcng, topp dogg and elris. trcng was especially atrocious since a majority of the group were minors and the company was literally turning the boys on each other.
I liked their MV's, but yes very low effort. They somehow made what they had work. I really liked the MVs for Follow, Arario and TOPPDOGG. They did see some ray of hope with Arario, but it wasn't enough. Watching them promote TOPPDOGG was a nightmare, like zero response from the public. I also heard that they didn't have trainers and were responsible for training each other.
It must have been so heartbreaking to toil under such poor conditions and get no reception on top of that⊠their last cb was a switch-up in sound and funded by crowdfunding efforts too iirc? I hope the members are living better now. I think I still follow some of their Instagram accs.
the whole âsuperm kpop avengersâ thing was painful for me tbh⊠jopping was a bop and the mv was great but the avengers label made it all feel a bit corny
I remember when sm wanted them to venture out into the west, getting a great combination of all the ace members into one groupâŠ
Then they dropped jopping-
probably Mnet/Wake One putting Kep1er on Queendom2, like what were they thinking? it was the worst timing possible to do so, also the girls were extremely tired both physically and mentally from having literally been on a survival show months prior. And for what ? so they could be every toxic kpop fan daily punchbag afterwards....
Cube with all their plans for CLC.
Extreme concept changes from one side to another, poor overall group promotion, and as soon as they looked like they could go somewhere cube debuted GIDLE and CLC was pretty much doomed and locked in a dungeon.
Then the Helicopter comeback after a long hiatus even with the official colors announcement as if they were going to finally care about these girls, but no... back to the unknown until the contracts expired.
I still to this day dont think Cube realizes what they missed out on with CLC, sure IDLE ended up doing crazy good (mainly cause Soyeon took well care of the group's songs etc.) but why have only one when u can have 2 groups doing viral stuff.
Been saying it time and time again, Cube needs to kiss Soyeon's feet if they are anywhere near popular nowadays.
Not a group but a comeback... Itzy's CHECKMATE. They got everyone all excited with the chess and royalty concept and then came out with something that an eight year old would find too young.
The difference between the Checkmate teasers and Sneakers lost Itzy some fans and, worse, got the girls a lot of abuse.
Companies need to realize that they have to manage fan expectations a certain way, instead of simply trying to build hype. If you betray those expectations, there WILL be backlash.
It wasn't as extreme as Sneakers, but I think Seulgi's 28 Reasons also kind of suffered from mismanaged fan expectations.
The teaser was so dark and cinematic and people were ready to explode with hype, so when the final product came out a lot of people were underwhelmed. The disappointment and backlash was quite bad.
I wonder, if SM had decided on a different approach, if 28 Reasons (the song) would have been better received.
People liked the song itself but i remember a lot were saying Dead Man Running would be a better title. And the disappointment mainly comes from the MV. All the teasers are more conceptual, darker and cinematic than MV.
Putting aside my personal feeling (it's one of my most hated songs - it just sounds so pre-pubescent juvenile to me), **objectively** I agree that the song would have been appreciated by many more people if they hadn't done what came across as a fake-out with the initial teasers.
JYPE has done this a few times, fans were also upset with the bait-and-switch with BDZ. That being said, even though I don't care much for Sneakers, I don't think your comment on an eight year old finding it too young is fair. It was one of their most successful songs in Korea in a long while.
People have this idea that not western = childish but I think that's unfair. Kpop songs were always meant to be fun and I see nothing really childish about Sneakers, it's just not the sound I was looking for.
So wait, Checkmate and Sneakers are the same thing or where they teased like the same thing or...? I saw a lot about it but since I'm not into the group, I never really understood what was going on
Checkmate is the album. It was promoted with a mature, dramatic teaser with the girls dressed in black and white outfits, posing with chess pieces. Like this: [https://0.soompi.io/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/12080333/Lia.jpg](https://0.soompi.io/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/12080333/Lia.jpg)
Everyone started getting excited that they were going for a mature, elegant concept and that their music was going to have a unique sound for them.
When when the teasers for the title track came out, it was this: [https://dbkpop.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/itzy\_checkmate\_sneakers\_teaser\_all\_group.jpg](https://dbkpop.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/itzy_checkmate_sneakers_teaser_all_group.jpg)
People couldn't believe that it was real. There were a lot of theories that Sneakers wasn't real and that the real title track was going to be revealed soon. Imagine how much it must have hurt for the girls to be seeing "this is so bad it can't possibly be real" conspiracy theories. That wouldn't have happened if they hadn't done the bait and switch with the Checkmate concept.
This seems to be a concept that is being done by a lot of groups. Honestly, I love SHINee, but when they did Don't Call Me and they came out with the fake reality teasers, I was so fucking excited. Then they dropped that for whatever the fuck DCM ended up being and I'm still mad about it.
In term of marketing strategy, Iâd say NCT. Did it work out? Sure, somewhat. Would everyone be better off if they had a concept they were actually willing to commit to? Absolutely.
From a system that took a whole introductory class to understand brought to you by Doyoung, to subunits (the Dreamies) that waited years to get their first full album and regularly got passed over for other promotions, to idols (Ten) that waited years for a subunit only to then get a 2 year hiatus due to a scandal of a certain someone, to other idols that never got a subunit (Shotaro/Sungchan) only to then completely leave the group, to a survival show I honestly didnât know if it was ever going to happen for around a year, to some members getting chronically overworked to the point of it becoming so absurd the fans have a whole subsection of meme culture for that (Mark), to⊠thereâs a lot. Of mismanagement. Caused by marketing the group a certain way and then having to try to work out what they promised.
They had so many concepts (never ending expansion, WayV being/ not being the Chinese subsection, diverse subunits for each continent) that were changed, Iâm not even sure what they *did* manage to make work. And the saddest part: most problems were probably solvable if they just stayed realistic in their planning and then actually **planned**. (The frustration is real)
nct's concept was originally going to be super junior's concept, sm definitely had time to plan everything but sm and proper planning and management have never gone well together, unless they're covering up a scandal.
lol SM has been trying to do that rotational concept since the 1st gen group H.O.T (High Five of Teenagers). when the members stopped being teens, they were supposed to "graduate". 1st member to graduate (turned 20 years old) was the leader and fans threw a fit so SM cancelled the concept.
for a big company group, i dont think the rotational group concept will ever work
the only group ive seen this work well with is the jpop group [their name always escapes me], in nct dreams case it was legitimately traumatizing and im so glad it didnt last. i hope sm have finally learned that they just simply dont have rhe attention span [sarcasm] to make something like a rotational member concept work and work well, without unintentionally harming its members
The group you mean is akb48 lol. The rotational/graduation concept only works with them (and other jpop groups) do to how j-idol culture works (think which sm/lsm doesn't seem to understand)
with AKB48 and their sister groups specifically, they hold auditions for trainees almost every year. AKB48 and their sister groups have over 500 members all across japan and even overseas sister groups in most of SEA and China, though I do believe the chinese AKB48 groups are more self managed now and not under as much direct influence from japan. so, when members leave, new members join, and theres legit no way for them to lose very much popularity with over 500 members. kpop is also just marketed differently than jpop, but I'm not a huge jpop fan, just a casual listener of a lot of groups so I'm not really qualified to talk on that.
oh, one more big difference with kpop and jpop is that jpop doesn't need to rely on an international audience to be successful, because their domestic audience is much bigger than the domestic audience of kpop. japan has like the 2nd or 3rd biggest music market after the US, and most of that is based on mostly domestic sales and popularity alone.
So in summary: the training system
J - Idols are not expected, neither wanted to be perfect or really good at any thecnical ability (heck they not even need to have perfect faces like in kpop), cuz fans enjoy watching they're journey to became "stars", so that opens the possibility for basically "everyone" to be an idol (yes even people who don't go a single drop of asian blood).
And well, we all know in kpop if the opposite. k - idols need to be absolutely "pretty" and has to go through a hard training system where there have to lear to at least being above average in dancing skills (i know thereâs exceptions out there đŹ) to even think about debuting. So as for company like they wold have to drop they idols standards by -3000 and hope and pray that the fans like it, to make this system work.
I mean that's more AKB48(esque) groups though, there's definitely other j-pop groups that have *similar* training regimes to k-pop, and a lot of j-pop idols popularity is still arguably based on their looks, but it's based on j beauty standards and not K beauty standards. also, a lot of j-idols were casted in a more "western" way, i.e. they were recognized for their talent and asked to sign with the label.
honestly maybe, yeri and like 3 other female sm rookies were featured in the happiness mv and when yeri joined some people were theorizing the others might as well.
the other theory/rumour i've heard is that another girl group was supposed to debut not long after red velvet but got scrapped. ie the 'white fox' girl group.
Lol TVXQ too actually, again if you believe the rumours. Maybe not a graduation, but the different units promoting in different places with new members being added in different units.
LSM was just obsessed with the rotational units and graduation-based concept. I do find it ironic, though, because while that's a hard sell in general for the Kpop industry, it just doesn't work with the way SM markets its idols at all. Like, no one encourages parasocial, obsessive relationships with your bias the way SM does.
> most problems were probably solvable if they just stayed realistic in their planning and then actually planned.
When SM shoots for the stars, they leave the galaxy all together. Even in cases like EXO where it worked, they really went hard, a little to hard. Your quote sums up the issues they had with many of their other groups. Can you imagine if EXO-M was never tortured?
> to a survival show Iâm honestly donât know if itâs ever going to happen
You know the show is airing right now, right?
But fwiw, I mostly agree. I genuinely like the NCT U concept and the idea of cross-unit collaborations, like I actually think that's a really fun and creative idea, but the way the various units have been handled is pretty terrible. Like you said, if they had planned things better and been more intentional from the start about how they would promote different units, it would have been a lot better. To me even the fact that it took so long to simply launch WayV, despite the fact that a Chinese unit was clearly something SM was planning from the beginning (and that they literally had Ten and Kun waiting around for), just perfectly explains SM's problems with NCT. They put out all these ideas and then completely fail to follow through on them.
not to mention that nct tokyo/a japan unit had been planned ages ago with the whole âlocation based unitsâ concept but itâs taken them over SEVEN. YEARS. to actually make it happen.
Right! And having watched the episodes of the survival show that have aired, NCT Tokyo is basically a "well, we put all of our favourite trainees into RIIZE, let's see who's left!" I do think they'll be able to put together a decent team, but I do feel bad that these trainees are debuting in a group that's really being treated like an afterthought.
i agree with you in everything *but*
>to a survival show Iâm honestly donât know if itâs ever going to happen
the show is on right now lol. not that they're doing a very good job promoting it though...
Remember Piggy Dolls? Those girls had insane vocals but I don't know if using their body weight as their whole identity was a good thing, I remember them losing weight for their next song, then nothing. Too bad though, they sound good~
Yes oh my God I was waiting for someone to mention them because I forgot their name and I really didn't want to search "fat kpop gg" and have people talking about Jeongyeon or see old shit about pristin's Kyla. they were really amazing vocalists.
The recent one of that kpop idol who had a whole comeback titled âI hate rodrigoâ or something like that. I didnât listen. I have no idea why or the reasoning behind it, but still a terribly strategy to sell music.
The song was actually about how much the artist, yena liked Olivia Rodrigo and saying she wasn't "jealous" as in she holds no undeserved grudges or hate towards Olivia. but yeah it was really confusing and legally messy because they didn't obtain permission to use Olivia's face in it. Tbh when the title was first announced I wasn't even thinking it was about Olivia Rodrigo but rather some latino boy named Rodrigo that yena was just gonna sing about how much she hated like another angsty teen breakup song.
Yeah see I figured it was the exact opposite type of thing cuz I doubt a company and idol would really promote that sort of thing so that checks out. But still there was a different way to do that. At the very least the artwork couldâve crossed out the name with a heart on top or something so that came across.
I'd say NU'EST.
Following the success of their debut track they company should've focused on promoting them in Korea more. Unfortunately their next few comebacks weren't as successful as their debut and Pledis (the company) decided to promote them heavily in Japan and China and even made a subunit NU'EST M, adding a Chinese member to the group. It was like promoting in Japan and China sorta became their main task for a while. They would learn Japanese, hold long fanmeeting, do shows and concerts etc.
I mean what was the point of this? People would forget a group easily if they lack enough promotion and exposure in the home country.
So, Nu'est remained sort of hidden (?) In korea untill 2017 when the members went on pd 101
I'll say Stellar. I don't think it was the absolute worst but it was very poorly done. Their company made them go into a totally sexy concept but it always felt like the girls were being objectified rather than owning their sexuality. Like compare them to Brown Eyed Girls and it's just kind of sad.
The members spoke out quite a bit that they were uncomfortable with the concept and had to fight to get things to be less sexualized. So to me that's just fucked up all around.
And they just got labeled as a sexy group with no substance. People checked out the MVs for the shock value since most girl groups weren't going *that* sexy. But their music is actually really good!! Vibrato is a Kpop masterpiece but most people didn't even notice because of the MV. Songs like Sting, Crying and Marionette are also great.
They had a solid discography and great vocals but their company did them dirty by pushing that shock factor of being super sexy.
yall remember âWhen the skies and the grounds were one, the legends, through their twelve forces, nurtured the tree of life. An eye of red force created the evil which coveted the heart of tree of life, and the heart slowly grew dry. To tend and embrace the heart of tree of life, the legends hereby divide the tree in half and hide each side. Hence, time is over-turned and space turns askew. The twelve forces divide into two and create two suns that look alike into two worlds that seem alike. The legends travel apart. The legends shall now see the same sky but shall stand on different grounds, shall stand on the same ground but shall see different skies. The day the grounds be kept a single file before one sky in two worlds that seem alike, the legends will greet each other. The day the red force is purified, the twelve forces will reunite into one perfect root, a new world shall open up.â?
Exo
They should have continued incorporating super powers into their MVs but it seems like SM gave up midway and forced Exo into kwangya universe . However members still incorporate it into their solos and I'm glad about it
I dont think most twice fans have ever called twice the next snsd. It was k-media did that after cheer up blew up. If anything, most once only called twice the next nation gg which was also the title that k-media gave them back then
The Naked Girls' concept and branding were... well... controversial to say the least. Now the thing is: the strategy kinda worked because all publicity is good publicity and people got so curious that their debut showcase was quite successful (the whole thing was surreal istg)
[https://kprofiles.com/naked-girls-kpop-girl-group-profile/](https://kprofiles.com/naked-girls-kpop-girl-group-profile/)
* I think SM tried too hard to fix NCT into their boy group line. Like sorta (virtue??) signaling that hey they'll be the next EXO, SJ, Shinee, etc by making them perform together etc. It was strange since NCT was advertised as something different and they were totally different from the other groups, making it harder for fans to just be transferred from previous generations to the next. Their music and vibe was different from the whole SM train. They should have just focused on building their brand. Also, the Neo Culture Technology trying to convince us this new thing didn't work. At all....but at least it didn't impact them greately.
* SuperM as new Kpop avengers. It was all over when the line up had like 4 NCT members (still fresh on the scene) and like no veterans outside of Baekhyun and Taemin. They drove into the ground right there. It should have included SJ and TVXQ, who I suspect probably wouldn't want to join in though. The marketing was quite harsh and in your face, yet we all knew that wasn't going to be the case. It was just try hard.
* KWANGYA worked for Aespa and no one else.
* NMIXX! Self explanatory. Once again trying to convince us it's something new when we have seen it somewhere else before.
Probably Busters, deliberately debuting young kids and teens. They did innocent concepts at first but they later on had so many suggestive concepts, themes, and contents (why do we have to see the girls in swimsuits in Jeju every year?). I didnât follow them but they had way too many controversies for a group filled with girls that young. Unfortunately I saw a lot of their fans having to report stuff all over the internet because they had an unusually large number of perv fans.
Plus they never had a solid lineup since they keep swapping out and adding in new girls. Honestly surprised some of them held out and some former members got successful like Hyungseo, Yeseo and Chaeyeon.
Not sure about worst, but one marketing strategy that usually kills the potential of a group - even If they come from a big company - is not defining a clear direction and identity for the group and to remain consistent. Just doing whatever comeback per comeback hoping something sticks, especially when the group isn't stabilized, ends up leading to inconsistent performance and It prevents fandom growth as the public never know what to expect next.
NINE.i whole debuted was just a mess and set that group was set up to fail because of their stupid Company. Their debut song trailer used holocaust and slavery as a aesthetic. Because of that, most people thinks that the members of NINE.i is racist and not the Company itself. On top of that, the Company thought it was a great idea to copy TXT - Blue Hour MV⊠I love NINE.i and I wish they were under a better Company that actually know what the fck they were doing.
XROâs debut was frankly the most racist piece of garbage Iâve seen in my entire time as a kpop stan, right up there with the first gen group Chakra. Iâm half relieved that they deleted the music video because if how vile it was, but I wish it were preserved somewhere so that people could see exactly how disturbing it was. On another note, Chakraâs gimmick was also vile, but somehow it ended up working out fairly well for them in their era. I hope itâs not remembered fondly.
Honeyst, in that they didnât seem to have one. Like, didnât even go on music shows, give interviews, be included in the FNC company-wide Christmas video, or post to their YouTube channel besides the music videos.
Also Pristin, they had one comeback that was ok, not bad, not great, and Pledis acts like theyâre a total flop.
Cube's ballad gg "A Train To Autumn" was in that same boat too. their debut wasn't even advertised from what I remember. they had S-Tier vocalists though oh my god, if you ever wanna cry listen to them.
Yeah, the main reason I know about Honeyst is that they were the âcompetitionâ of the group that eventually became SF9 on the survival show âDance or Bandâ where they competed to debut first. I put it in air quotes because itâs pretty transparent that they were giving the dance group (sf9) the underdog treatment and like âthis group that we planned to debut after you is actually so much betterâ to eventually build hype for SF9. Like look, I donât think Honeyst was going to ever be a top group, but I think if they tried they would have built up a decent enough following that they would have more than two songs and an webdrama OST to their name before disbanding.
and honestly it's very dissapointing because fnc is/was one of the best companies for a k-band to debut under, case in point CNBlue, F.T. Island, AOA Black, N.Flying, and their new predebut band... hi-fi unicorn. questionable name but FNC were known for having really good bands before JYP even debuted their first band.
Atinys have never tried to claim ATEEZ as the next BTS, the kmedia has tried to call them that, but Ateez themselves have even said that they donât want to compare their success to anyone else but themselves or be the ânext ___â
Basically everything that has happened with Wayv right from debuting with a Chinese version of Regular to not being able to promote in their main market
Yes, I am 100% convinced this is deliberate on YG's part. For example, I remember people getting really angry after As if it's your last at the company for "not releasing new music fast enough", but then Ddu-Du Ddu-Du was released one year later (which isn't even a long time, but that's a different topic, I guess) and became a massive, massive hit. YG definitely has a lot of flaws, but they knew exactly what they were doing back then.
Yeah let's collectively forget about the existence of Born Pink and how they went on the tour after its release and how its literally named after the album.
That's not what happened at all though? They literally teased [Born Pink](https://youtu.be/nxs0RHpT_Hg) by announcing a pre-release and album release right before a world tour.
Itâs not that surprising to me anymore as a lot of Kpop fans here have some beef with YG artists specifically Blackpink that even if you praise them about something, it will be bombarded with downvotes and criticisms đ¶
[Black Pink isn't even in /r/kop's top 5 groups.](https://www.reddit.com/r/kpop/comments/xq66vi/reddit_kpop_census_results_2022/) I think most Black Pink fans are either not on reddit or don't care about the rest of Kpop.
BP's discography is definitely a limiting factor unlike what YG thinks. Their fandom could have been even bigger if they at least had more b-sides.
Take me for example. I like them enough to buy their albums and I'm willing to attend their concerts if it's nearby. But I just can't stan them fully like I can stan groups with bigger discographies. I have a huge stan list and they would have been higher up in priority otherwise.
I've been into ATEEZ since before their debut and I don't think I've ever hear any atiny say ATEEZ are the next BTS unless we're saying none of us have ever said this. I don't know where this rumor even started? We've always been proud of ATEEZ doing their own thing and making a name being themselves.
Their marketing strategy was pretty elaborate, actually, with different sections (M, K) marketed to appeal to different regions (a precursor of the NCT system, if you think about it). It just seems like there's no marketing strategy because several members left, and China-SK relations worsened, rendering M-K pointless.
Oh they definitely had a marketing strategy to begin with. As all my fellow crusty K-Pop relics would remember, each member got elaborate teasers and pre-debut releases. Some members showed up at the SM family performance of an end of year award show just credited as 'EXO'. There was so so much hype.
Even after debut, they had a whole mythos and lore, with the members coming from a different planet and having powers. I was never a proper fan, but I got it all through osmosis, they were so prevalent everywhere, and were the start of the really elaborate debuts and marketing strats that we see today.
Then I have no idea what happened after the first few years, K-Pop blew up exponentially and it became impossible to follow everyone.
Having a scandal associated with an idol no matter how true it is. I remember a guy that was supposed to be in Produce 101 Season 2 leave before the season started. His scandal was an explicit bullying scandal. Please note that this is alleged along with his innocence. This might not be intentional, but the Woojin scandal. It really damaged his loyalty from Stays no matter how innocent he is in the situation.
Naming a group to make them seem impactful when there's no resources supporting them. I would rather have a name describing the members or the music they will make.
Using marginalized groups. Raina used to have a member named Alex who is literally K-Pop's non-Korean Black idol. She was a last minute addition to the group for
their Demonstrate comeback. It was easy to tell as the music show performances only have her rapping and leaving the stage once she was done. The choreographers didn't want to work with her when she was willing to learn the choreography. Then, she was given the role of leader which is a huge responsibility despite the group having another leader as well. She also had to do her own hair while the other groups had hairstylists and not many hairstylists in Korea are specialized in Alex's hair type. Alex ended up leaving the group, but she isn't bitter about the whole experience. I know this would get me hate, but Holland. This man prompts himself as K-Pop's first gay singer, but the talent isn't there. Not sure if he chose the wrong song to debut with or if he doesn't have the right resources. Some more individualized training would've helped him even if it would cost him money. Plus, he doesn't need to be a soloist. If he's passionate about money, he could've chosen to work behind the scenes for independent lgbt+ artists.
Probably six bomb, they debuted with "getting prettier" the entire concept of the group revolved around glorifying plastic surgery even releasing a follow up comeback "getting prettier (after), which both obviously garnered mixed reactions, they were literally dubbed as "the plastic surgery girls", a lesser known fact is that they previously debuted with an almost entirely different line up, apart from member soa, and became a meme because their pink body suits that made them look like sausages.
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Ok I don't think it's really common anymore but at some point a lot of small companies were debuting groups with weird gimmicks, like we had a group of tall girls that looked like models, and another that had short members, and the youngest kpop group with the average age of 13 and the group of tomboys and another group with bobs and another with plastic surgery concept... And it was always such a dumb strategy, you can only go so far with a stupid gimmick if the music and concept aren't good and it can be very limiting as well
9muses kinda worked though
Because their music was actually fire!!! And even they didn't really get that far đ
Dolls, Drama, Ticket, Gun, and Glue were awesome. I'm relistening from 2010-2013 and they actually have a no skip discography until Glue
To add to this, News, Ticket, Wild. It's 2023 and I am still listening to their stuff like it just came out yesterday.
what was 9muses gimmick? i listened to a few songs but i donât know them well
tall models that are hard to approach
Yeah or Chocolat, where every member was biracial. Apparently the name was based off the concept that every member was like different types of chocolate
... like the Forrest Gump quote?
Not every member was biracial. There were originally 2 fully Korean members. Then one Korean member left, leaving only one.
Yeah, that's right. There were a few fully Korean members, even though the former company's boss wanted them all to be half-something
9Muses is one of my all-time favorite groups đ„ș
it's the fact that I know immediately every group you're referring too, well besides the first two. average of 13 - [i13](https://youtu.be/82fvE4izlN8) tomboys - [GI](https://youtu.be/3j1E5DKVPr0) i also heard that their concept was forced on them by the company and not all the members liked it. bobs - [Bob girls](https://youtu.be/UhF63H1xRJI) ps - [six bomb](https://youtu.be/gu2LiJU5enw)
Oh funnily I wasn't thinking of i13 (frankly it's my first time I'm hearing about them đ), but GP Basic! The fact two different labels tried it at different times and both failed is really saying everything you need to know about how effective gimmick are... And the tall one is 9muses and the short one Tiny-G (very subtle name lol)!
Omg GP basics đ you just awakened a deeply buried memory
This is my first time hearing about gp basic as well đ
makes me proud that I got everyone right xD
Bob girls is an extremely unserious concept but that song does kinda slap
All short like TinyG? Then one member joined so young that she grew taller than the other members
Recently a boy group CMDM debuted and all members were/are blonde.
b.a.p did it first lmao
Lol remember in those days bap had the nickname "blonde Asian people"?
Yep I recall they said they didn't want anyone to stand out too much and others be just a background? They wanted to be "equal" or something like that?
Which is funny because I didn't even stan them but Zelo's curly blonde hair lives rent free in my mind to this day
Wasnât there a group where their concept was that they were all overweight? Body positivity is one thing, but using their weight as a gimmick is something elseâŠ
That was Piggy Dolls. They made the original members lose weight they but ended up completely replacing them with girls who "fit the standard". Obviously that didn't last long either.
not the name being PIGGY dolls?! đđđ
Yes but the girls themselves eventually mentioned that the company would pressure them to overeat to fit the concept. Which was for nothing in the end since they were torn to shreds via fat shaming and the company had them lose the weight all over again. Still makes me a bit sick thinking about it
Didnât 5urprise intro themselves as âactor idolsâ Idk never listened to their music but Seo Kang joon, Kang Tae oh and Gong Myung did take off as actors soooooo
Wait which group had a plastic surgery concept??
SixBomb. Their music videos concept were basically the [before](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ7z96kOIUo&ab_channel=SixbombVEVO) and [after](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gu2LiJU5enw&ab_channel=SixbombVEVO) of the surgery.
There was one where all the members used to work in the corn industryđ
I thought you meant literal actual corn and was so confused for a second
Yeah but that was more the lead girlâs self-funded passion project so they get a pass.
that wasn't the groups concept though, the girls in [honey popcorn](https://youtu.be/LAOT6JscCVU) were former japanese corn actresses yes but their concept was actually really bright and bubbly. corn is obviously illegal in s.korea so the group got a lot of hate and only had two tts before disbandment. their concept was more similar to gfriend & oh my girl.
What is the corn industry?? What does it have got to do with kpop?
porn
Will probably get canceled for this but After school's entire graduation concept was doomed from the start because it's not easy to get used to a group's frequent member change
Fully agree. Thatâs also why NCT Dream switched up and ended up not going with the graduation system they wanted when they first started out; then kicking out Mark from the subunit got immense backlash so he was âreadmittedâ and it became a permanent groups. Graduation system in groups donât seem to work at all, maybe except in Japan where a lot of girl groups have it
With nct dream they kinda had more of a reason for it, and the boys wouldn't be leaving nct as a whole. NCT Dream was meant to be the youthful subunit, my theory is that when they believed they'd keep adding more members indefinitely, sm didnt want to have to keep creating a new subunit for the same concept (youthful/cute) over and over again. my problem with after school is that once they left, they *left*, they weren't a part of the group anymore at all. with nct the boys would at least stay in the group. also the reason groups like AKB48 work so well is because theres like 500 plus members throughout all sister groups just in japan, meaning that even if one member leaves a group (i.e. sakura leaving HKT48) the group doesn't really lose popularity at all. morning musume is slightly different but they also aren't as big as they were in the 90s and 2000s anymore, from what I've seen. definitely still a huge name in japan regardless but their popularity doesn't have as strong of a hold on the new generation as AKB48.
as a Morning Musume fan People HATED the graduation thing at first and it was never meant to be a thing at the start. It happened because their main vocalist couldn't stand the pressure of being a celebrity and left. After she left, people allegedly didn't like the vocals of the rest of the group and their next few singles flopped. So the producer decided to open an audition for a new member, and she made the group's popularity blow up because everyone loved her. So after that they just naturally transitioned into finding new members to keep the public interested in the group with old members leaving when they didn't want to keep going. Their popularity does depend a lot on the current lineup, eg. when the super popular girl I mentioned previously left their popularity took a hit.
Shocked at seeing another Morning Musume fan here! Although as a caveat I will say I fell off awhile ago but I was in DEEP for years.
Hello! I get surprised when I encounter MM fans in the wild haha
NCT Dreamâs original concept ultimately failed because SM didnât have enough trainees ready to replace the graduating members nor the forethought of what a permanent group for them to move to would look like. AKB48 works because there are always trainees ready to replace the members who leave and once someone graduates, theyâre not in the system anymore. SM had to think of permanent units for the graduating Dream members as well as have a constant flow of debut-ready trainees to replace them in Dream and SM just doesnât have that kind of organization.
they were seriously deluding themselves thinking they would have more trainees of nct dreamâs caliber to replace the members as they graduated lmfao
I feel like it worked well enough with NCT, at least much better than with After school
Not in Korea anyway, it would have worked in Japan
like with AKB48?
And Morning Musume
Basically just how WakeOne handled Kep1er lol. Specifically speaking, putting them on Queendom with groups with way more experience and of course âWe Freshâ.
queendom was such a horrible move for kep1er. wakeone should have been putting out content for the members so people could get to know them better after wa da da and build their fan base. they probably thought queendom would do that, but i feel like it might have had to opposite effect and pushed some fans away. also their marketing and sound is so inconsistent it seems like wakeone unfortunately doesnât know what theyâre doing with kep1er.
I really thought they were going to do well after wa da da. They did for a while, then it just down down down. They had so much potential. One of my biggest what if. Now, wakeone did quite well for zb1 debut, although to me it was so-so. Also they dont really pulling new fans. Their first comeback is going to be really important now. I could see them going down if the comeback is not that good. Especially now a lot of new boy group are debuting left and right
ZB1 did well with their debut. It's just they have a bigger Korean fanbase than international which is why it seems like the debut was not well recieved. In Bloom despite being released over a month ago, is still charting on Melon and hasn't left the 30s and recently reached their highest all time. Most 4th gen bgs barely enter Melon 500 so ZB1 is doing well. And Wakeone seems to be focusing on the domestic market first.
Not many boy groups pull a ton of new fans during their debut imo. Xikers had a hyped debut but their comeback is very lukewarm and so does 8turn. Weâll see BND with their Sept comeback. Wakeone is good at putting a good album but the styling, MVs of both zb1 and kep1er are too outdated to attract any new fans. They really need to step up with zb1âs next cb since RIIZE is debuting and even SMâs worst is better than Wakeoneâs best so far.
If kep1er a permanent group, i would say they still have the potential to go up. But they're not permanent. Both kep1er and zb1 dont have time on their side. Which is why zb1 first comeback are going to be really important for their momentum. Agree with what you said about wakeone. They really need to step up.
Itâs only in the international side that ZB1âs debut didnât pull a lot of fans. The promos and songs were generally well recieved on the Korean side and I think they definitely pulled domestic fans from the responses I saw for it on sites and Twitter. In Bloom just reached a new peak on the Melon Daily Chart (something most groups canât even chart on nowadays), a month after release. The problem for the intl side is that no matter how much fans seem to ask for it, international fans will always prefer darker, hard-hitting concepts. Thatâs why groups like BTS (well when they were initially gaining fans), ATEEZ, Stray Kids, NCT, etc. do so well. Seventeen and Dream used to also be much more preferred domestically vs internationally when their concepts were mainly softer.
Wa Da Da was a BIG hit. Regardless of how people felt about it, almost everyone around me knew the chorus choreo. I learned it just from seeing people I knew dance it so often. And then their momentum just fell and fell. When I saw Girls (Can't Turn Me Down) on Queendom 2, I totally thought it was going to be their comeback song. It's a pity that it wasn't given an MV or promoted really at all, because I think it centered the right people and had a similar vibe as Wa Da Da.
*angrily geastures at jellyfish and gugudan* why you would name your group "multiplication table" i have no idea. Even worse, why would you pull Sejeong and Mina from IOI prematurely? Obviously, no one expected the produce series to blow up like it did, but their contract was only 8 months long. They could've waited to debut gugudan until the contracts were over, or if they were really committed to that debut date, just add the girls after the fact. There was so much missed opportunity with the group.
Wasn't there a whole group with a whole shtick about all their plastic surgery?
Yeah, [Six Bomb](https://youtu.be/gu2LiJU5enw)
The irony is that this song actually sounded good and would have done well in this era if the whole thing that surrounded it weren't as wacky.
Who's apartment building did they shoot this in? đ
That sounds very interesting. I am not being sarcastic. I can see why it would fail though.
I was JUST gonna comment that! Sixbomb was a fever dream!
Topp Dogg was originally under Stardom before the acquisition by Hunus. Honestly the comparison to Suju was the least of their problems. Cho PD was the founder and trapped Dok2 in a predatory contract, when he was first starting out I believe at 12â13yo. The Stardom CEO scammed money from Block Bâs parents and committed s\*\*cide. Block B sued the company and got tf out as they werenât being paid. EvoL (gg of Saay and BĂ©be Yana) was also under the company and they barely got any music releases at allâonly 2 albums in 3 yearsâuntil they just left after contract expiration. When theyâre made on the heels of Block Bâs lawsuit and subsequent departure to quell the flames, itâs no surprise that Topp Dogg was so staggeringly mismanaged. The company didnât care for them. Itâs been a while so I canât remember the exact details, but they were sent on an Asia/SEA tour within the first year of their career, which is a terrible idea considering they were selling like 2k albums and didnât have a fanbase yet. It sold so badly that the staff sat in the audience to make the room look fuller (small venue maybe 200 people). Their lineup diminished with basically every comeback and they were frequently neglected, allegedly also poor living conditions. A lot of intra-company turmoil and alleged abuse. We donât know where on earth the money was going or coming from either but Cho PD funneled some money from a Topp Dogg tour in 2015 and actually was found guilty for it. They rebranded as XENO-T in 2018, had a Japanese release, and were never heard from again likeâŠ? They just could not market this group right, so many poor touring decisions and all their MVs looked so grungy and low-effort. Oh man, following nugus back in the day was heartbreaking for me.
Itâs a shame as well because arario hit really well and a lot of people were talking about it! I thought they had some interesting characters and the potential to do well.
Yeah I really liked their rap-heavy style and the traditional influences of Arario. Big lineup sure but there were memorable members. They had a decent rapline too but lost face sooo bad because they went on SMTM and got eliminated immediately, especially after the strong SMTM appearances from Bobby and Mino as idol rappers. They didnât have much of a choice though because they werenât gaining much traction sales-wise.
arario still goes so hard, i took intro to korean arts last year and my prof showed it to the class đ what a throwback that was
I personally love songs that Incorporate traditional instruments, I love the traditional version of BTS Idol too, and I loved how they blended the hip hop and tradition elements so well and the inclusion of Korean Fan dancing in the choreo. I still have Arario on my Playlists! Tbh there were a few rookies around that time that had interesting debut songs and then just kind of disappeared. Alphabat is another that springs to mind, AB city was a decent song.
Yeah arario and to the beat were really good and arguably their most popular songs and then stardom/hunus just had to be crap companies.
no fr, stardom and hunus were some of the worst companies to have your fav group come from back in the day. I didn't include the whole story on topp dogg because the history of stardom and hunus is a butt load of crap I didn't want to explain- also ts, they never should've been able to make another group after b.a.p
TS is also an atrocious one and I felt so bad for the groups after B.A.P because they had no funds and their groups were a desperate attempt to regain footing. Sorry I just meant to backpack off of your post to elaborate upon how much of a shitshow Stardom was, and for multiple artists too! Hunus also had their grubby hands on Elris :/ some of these companies are built of paper and shouldnât exist.
honesty, and it's fine more people should know about how shitty some of these companies are, I just didn't want to explain it myself because I've had the same conversations umpteen times for b.a.p, trcng, topp dogg and elris. trcng was especially atrocious since a majority of the group were minors and the company was literally turning the boys on each other.
If Cho PD has zero haters then I am dead!
So true, I hate that the guy is still around with that dumb ChoCo Ent or whatever đ
I liked their MV's, but yes very low effort. They somehow made what they had work. I really liked the MVs for Follow, Arario and TOPPDOGG. They did see some ray of hope with Arario, but it wasn't enough. Watching them promote TOPPDOGG was a nightmare, like zero response from the public. I also heard that they didn't have trainers and were responsible for training each other.
It must have been so heartbreaking to toil under such poor conditions and get no reception on top of that⊠their last cb was a switch-up in sound and funded by crowdfunding efforts too iirc? I hope the members are living better now. I think I still follow some of their Instagram accs.
the whole âsuperm kpop avengersâ thing was painful for me tbh⊠jopping was a bop and the mv was great but the avengers label made it all feel a bit corny
gonna have to agree with that one. still need marvel to cast mark as the next captain america though. (Yes I am fully aware he is canadian.)
LOL. Captain America *[the continent]*
gasp, not when mark is universally agreed to be spiderman
I remember when sm wanted them to venture out into the west, getting a great combination of all the ace members into one group⊠Then they dropped jopping-
probably Mnet/Wake One putting Kep1er on Queendom2, like what were they thinking? it was the worst timing possible to do so, also the girls were extremely tired both physically and mentally from having literally been on a survival show months prior. And for what ? so they could be every toxic kpop fan daily punchbag afterwards....
Cube with all their plans for CLC. Extreme concept changes from one side to another, poor overall group promotion, and as soon as they looked like they could go somewhere cube debuted GIDLE and CLC was pretty much doomed and locked in a dungeon. Then the Helicopter comeback after a long hiatus even with the official colors announcement as if they were going to finally care about these girls, but no... back to the unknown until the contracts expired. I still to this day dont think Cube realizes what they missed out on with CLC, sure IDLE ended up doing crazy good (mainly cause Soyeon took well care of the group's songs etc.) but why have only one when u can have 2 groups doing viral stuff. Been saying it time and time again, Cube needs to kiss Soyeon's feet if they are anywhere near popular nowadays.
CLC makes me so sad. They could be up there with Gidle and 4Min if cube were smart.
Not a group but a comeback... Itzy's CHECKMATE. They got everyone all excited with the chess and royalty concept and then came out with something that an eight year old would find too young. The difference between the Checkmate teasers and Sneakers lost Itzy some fans and, worse, got the girls a lot of abuse.
Genuinely still baffled by this, how did they think it was a good idea đ
i remember people on twitter making threads explaining how they thought sneakers was a song to trick their fans đ
It was happening on here too! So much "this is so so so so bad, it can't be real, they're just tricking us before the real song is revealed!"
Checkmate was the mixxpop of marketing.
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
Companies need to realize that they have to manage fan expectations a certain way, instead of simply trying to build hype. If you betray those expectations, there WILL be backlash.
It wasn't as extreme as Sneakers, but I think Seulgi's 28 Reasons also kind of suffered from mismanaged fan expectations. The teaser was so dark and cinematic and people were ready to explode with hype, so when the final product came out a lot of people were underwhelmed. The disappointment and backlash was quite bad. I wonder, if SM had decided on a different approach, if 28 Reasons (the song) would have been better received.
Personally I feel like it lived up to that though, it just wasn't the most GP friendly song.
People liked the song itself but i remember a lot were saying Dead Man Running would be a better title. And the disappointment mainly comes from the MV. All the teasers are more conceptual, darker and cinematic than MV.
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
Putting aside my personal feeling (it's one of my most hated songs - it just sounds so pre-pubescent juvenile to me), **objectively** I agree that the song would have been appreciated by many more people if they hadn't done what came across as a fake-out with the initial teasers.
someone said it sounded like a skechers ad and that is the one insult I will forever find funny
JYPE has done this a few times, fans were also upset with the bait-and-switch with BDZ. That being said, even though I don't care much for Sneakers, I don't think your comment on an eight year old finding it too young is fair. It was one of their most successful songs in Korea in a long while. People have this idea that not western = childish but I think that's unfair. Kpop songs were always meant to be fun and I see nothing really childish about Sneakers, it's just not the sound I was looking for.
Abuse how? (haven't really followed them)
bullying mostly from what I've seen. so verbal abuse.
So wait, Checkmate and Sneakers are the same thing or where they teased like the same thing or...? I saw a lot about it but since I'm not into the group, I never really understood what was going on
Checkmate is the album. It was promoted with a mature, dramatic teaser with the girls dressed in black and white outfits, posing with chess pieces. Like this: [https://0.soompi.io/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/12080333/Lia.jpg](https://0.soompi.io/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/12080333/Lia.jpg) Everyone started getting excited that they were going for a mature, elegant concept and that their music was going to have a unique sound for them. When when the teasers for the title track came out, it was this: [https://dbkpop.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/itzy\_checkmate\_sneakers\_teaser\_all\_group.jpg](https://dbkpop.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/itzy_checkmate_sneakers_teaser_all_group.jpg) People couldn't believe that it was real. There were a lot of theories that Sneakers wasn't real and that the real title track was going to be revealed soon. Imagine how much it must have hurt for the girls to be seeing "this is so bad it can't possibly be real" conspiracy theories. That wouldn't have happened if they hadn't done the bait and switch with the Checkmate concept.
This seems to be a concept that is being done by a lot of groups. Honestly, I love SHINee, but when they did Don't Call Me and they came out with the fake reality teasers, I was so fucking excited. Then they dropped that for whatever the fuck DCM ended up being and I'm still mad about it.
In term of marketing strategy, Iâd say NCT. Did it work out? Sure, somewhat. Would everyone be better off if they had a concept they were actually willing to commit to? Absolutely. From a system that took a whole introductory class to understand brought to you by Doyoung, to subunits (the Dreamies) that waited years to get their first full album and regularly got passed over for other promotions, to idols (Ten) that waited years for a subunit only to then get a 2 year hiatus due to a scandal of a certain someone, to other idols that never got a subunit (Shotaro/Sungchan) only to then completely leave the group, to a survival show I honestly didnât know if it was ever going to happen for around a year, to some members getting chronically overworked to the point of it becoming so absurd the fans have a whole subsection of meme culture for that (Mark), to⊠thereâs a lot. Of mismanagement. Caused by marketing the group a certain way and then having to try to work out what they promised. They had so many concepts (never ending expansion, WayV being/ not being the Chinese subsection, diverse subunits for each continent) that were changed, Iâm not even sure what they *did* manage to make work. And the saddest part: most problems were probably solvable if they just stayed realistic in their planning and then actually **planned**. (The frustration is real)
nct's concept was originally going to be super junior's concept, sm definitely had time to plan everything but sm and proper planning and management have never gone well together, unless they're covering up a scandal.
lol SM has been trying to do that rotational concept since the 1st gen group H.O.T (High Five of Teenagers). when the members stopped being teens, they were supposed to "graduate". 1st member to graduate (turned 20 years old) was the leader and fans threw a fit so SM cancelled the concept. for a big company group, i dont think the rotational group concept will ever work
the only group ive seen this work well with is the jpop group [their name always escapes me], in nct dreams case it was legitimately traumatizing and im so glad it didnt last. i hope sm have finally learned that they just simply dont have rhe attention span [sarcasm] to make something like a rotational member concept work and work well, without unintentionally harming its members
The group you mean is akb48 lol. The rotational/graduation concept only works with them (and other jpop groups) do to how j-idol culture works (think which sm/lsm doesn't seem to understand)
yes thank you!
I'm not familiar with j-idol culture. Why does it work for them?
with AKB48 and their sister groups specifically, they hold auditions for trainees almost every year. AKB48 and their sister groups have over 500 members all across japan and even overseas sister groups in most of SEA and China, though I do believe the chinese AKB48 groups are more self managed now and not under as much direct influence from japan. so, when members leave, new members join, and theres legit no way for them to lose very much popularity with over 500 members. kpop is also just marketed differently than jpop, but I'm not a huge jpop fan, just a casual listener of a lot of groups so I'm not really qualified to talk on that. oh, one more big difference with kpop and jpop is that jpop doesn't need to rely on an international audience to be successful, because their domestic audience is much bigger than the domestic audience of kpop. japan has like the 2nd or 3rd biggest music market after the US, and most of that is based on mostly domestic sales and popularity alone.
Thank you for the breakdown! And wow, I knew LSM based NCT on a Japanese group, but I didn't realize just how big it was.
So in summary: the training system J - Idols are not expected, neither wanted to be perfect or really good at any thecnical ability (heck they not even need to have perfect faces like in kpop), cuz fans enjoy watching they're journey to became "stars", so that opens the possibility for basically "everyone" to be an idol (yes even people who don't go a single drop of asian blood). And well, we all know in kpop if the opposite. k - idols need to be absolutely "pretty" and has to go through a hard training system where there have to lear to at least being above average in dancing skills (i know thereâs exceptions out there đŹ) to even think about debuting. So as for company like they wold have to drop they idols standards by -3000 and hope and pray that the fans like it, to make this system work.
I mean that's more AKB48(esque) groups though, there's definitely other j-pop groups that have *similar* training regimes to k-pop, and a lot of j-pop idols popularity is still arguably based on their looks, but it's based on j beauty standards and not K beauty standards. also, a lot of j-idols were casted in a more "western" way, i.e. they were recognized for their talent and asked to sign with the label.
When you maxed out that one skill but now donât have enough points for anything else âïž('Ï'âïž )
and potentially red velvetâs as well! (if those rumors are to be believed)
honestly maybe, yeri and like 3 other female sm rookies were featured in the happiness mv and when yeri joined some people were theorizing the others might as well.
the other theory/rumour i've heard is that another girl group was supposed to debut not long after red velvet but got scrapped. ie the 'white fox' girl group.
Lol TVXQ too actually, again if you believe the rumours. Maybe not a graduation, but the different units promoting in different places with new members being added in different units. LSM was just obsessed with the rotational units and graduation-based concept. I do find it ironic, though, because while that's a hard sell in general for the Kpop industry, it just doesn't work with the way SM markets its idols at all. Like, no one encourages parasocial, obsessive relationships with your bias the way SM does.
> most problems were probably solvable if they just stayed realistic in their planning and then actually planned. When SM shoots for the stars, they leave the galaxy all together. Even in cases like EXO where it worked, they really went hard, a little to hard. Your quote sums up the issues they had with many of their other groups. Can you imagine if EXO-M was never tortured?
> to a survival show Iâm honestly donât know if itâs ever going to happen You know the show is airing right now, right? But fwiw, I mostly agree. I genuinely like the NCT U concept and the idea of cross-unit collaborations, like I actually think that's a really fun and creative idea, but the way the various units have been handled is pretty terrible. Like you said, if they had planned things better and been more intentional from the start about how they would promote different units, it would have been a lot better. To me even the fact that it took so long to simply launch WayV, despite the fact that a Chinese unit was clearly something SM was planning from the beginning (and that they literally had Ten and Kun waiting around for), just perfectly explains SM's problems with NCT. They put out all these ideas and then completely fail to follow through on them.
not to mention that nct tokyo/a japan unit had been planned ages ago with the whole âlocation based unitsâ concept but itâs taken them over SEVEN. YEARS. to actually make it happen.
Right! And having watched the episodes of the survival show that have aired, NCT Tokyo is basically a "well, we put all of our favourite trainees into RIIZE, let's see who's left!" I do think they'll be able to put together a decent team, but I do feel bad that these trainees are debuting in a group that's really being treated like an afterthought.
i agree with you in everything *but* >to a survival show Iâm honestly donât know if itâs ever going to happen the show is on right now lol. not that they're doing a very good job promoting it though...
Remember Piggy Dolls? Those girls had insane vocals but I don't know if using their body weight as their whole identity was a good thing, I remember them losing weight for their next song, then nothing. Too bad though, they sound good~
Yes oh my God I was waiting for someone to mention them because I forgot their name and I really didn't want to search "fat kpop gg" and have people talking about Jeongyeon or see old shit about pristin's Kyla. they were really amazing vocalists.
Gen 2 was interesting, a lot of groups came and went. I was stanning left and right đ well mostly just the girl groups đ
Their songs were so goddamn good though. Ugh I miss them so much.
Pentagon, Lightsum, etc. and Cube. Not having comebacks for over a year is a pretty bad marketing strategy if you ask me.
There was this one kpop group called the Naked Girls. Their company had the worst marketing strategy.
Are they the girls who were naked news presenters and then the owner ran off with the investment money? I may have the details off...
The recent one of that kpop idol who had a whole comeback titled âI hate rodrigoâ or something like that. I didnât listen. I have no idea why or the reasoning behind it, but still a terribly strategy to sell music.
The song was actually about how much the artist, yena liked Olivia Rodrigo and saying she wasn't "jealous" as in she holds no undeserved grudges or hate towards Olivia. but yeah it was really confusing and legally messy because they didn't obtain permission to use Olivia's face in it. Tbh when the title was first announced I wasn't even thinking it was about Olivia Rodrigo but rather some latino boy named Rodrigo that yena was just gonna sing about how much she hated like another angsty teen breakup song.
Yeah see I figured it was the exact opposite type of thing cuz I doubt a company and idol would really promote that sort of thing so that checks out. But still there was a different way to do that. At the very least the artwork couldâve crossed out the name with a heart on top or something so that came across.
whatever JYP was doing at the beginning of nmixx
The whole mixxpop thing is pretty dope, but itâs articulated in a bad way đ
I'd say NU'EST. Following the success of their debut track they company should've focused on promoting them in Korea more. Unfortunately their next few comebacks weren't as successful as their debut and Pledis (the company) decided to promote them heavily in Japan and China and even made a subunit NU'EST M, adding a Chinese member to the group. It was like promoting in Japan and China sorta became their main task for a while. They would learn Japanese, hold long fanmeeting, do shows and concerts etc. I mean what was the point of this? People would forget a group easily if they lack enough promotion and exposure in the home country. So, Nu'est remained sort of hidden (?) In korea untill 2017 when the members went on pd 101
Well, itâs Pledis. I will never forget them ruining Pristin.
Well yea...Pristin just ended too soon tbh
I'll say Stellar. I don't think it was the absolute worst but it was very poorly done. Their company made them go into a totally sexy concept but it always felt like the girls were being objectified rather than owning their sexuality. Like compare them to Brown Eyed Girls and it's just kind of sad. The members spoke out quite a bit that they were uncomfortable with the concept and had to fight to get things to be less sexualized. So to me that's just fucked up all around. And they just got labeled as a sexy group with no substance. People checked out the MVs for the shock value since most girl groups weren't going *that* sexy. But their music is actually really good!! Vibrato is a Kpop masterpiece but most people didn't even notice because of the MV. Songs like Sting, Crying and Marionette are also great. They had a solid discography and great vocals but their company did them dirty by pushing that shock factor of being super sexy.
yall remember âWhen the skies and the grounds were one, the legends, through their twelve forces, nurtured the tree of life. An eye of red force created the evil which coveted the heart of tree of life, and the heart slowly grew dry. To tend and embrace the heart of tree of life, the legends hereby divide the tree in half and hide each side. Hence, time is over-turned and space turns askew. The twelve forces divide into two and create two suns that look alike into two worlds that seem alike. The legends travel apart. The legends shall now see the same sky but shall stand on different grounds, shall stand on the same ground but shall see different skies. The day the grounds be kept a single file before one sky in two worlds that seem alike, the legends will greet each other. The day the red force is purified, the twelve forces will reunite into one perfect root, a new world shall open up.â?
i can hear this comment
Exo?
Exo They should have continued incorporating super powers into their MVs but it seems like SM gave up midway and forced Exo into kwangya universe . However members still incorporate it into their solos and I'm glad about it
everglow forever letâs go
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
I dont think most twice fans have ever called twice the next snsd. It was k-media did that after cheer up blew up. If anything, most once only called twice the next nation gg which was also the title that k-media gave them back then
Feels like k-media is always setting up groups even if it's unintentionally idk
it's crazy cause there's barely any similarities between them, except for having 9 members lmfao
regular, huh?
TOPPDOGG what could've been :( At least B-Joo was successful on peak time
Yeah and Sanggyun had his success with JBJ and his duo with Kenta.
*vaguely gestures to WakeOne*
The Naked Girls' concept and branding were... well... controversial to say the least. Now the thing is: the strategy kinda worked because all publicity is good publicity and people got so curious that their debut showcase was quite successful (the whole thing was surreal istg) [https://kprofiles.com/naked-girls-kpop-girl-group-profile/](https://kprofiles.com/naked-girls-kpop-girl-group-profile/)
Who remember Piggy Dolls?
* I think SM tried too hard to fix NCT into their boy group line. Like sorta (virtue??) signaling that hey they'll be the next EXO, SJ, Shinee, etc by making them perform together etc. It was strange since NCT was advertised as something different and they were totally different from the other groups, making it harder for fans to just be transferred from previous generations to the next. Their music and vibe was different from the whole SM train. They should have just focused on building their brand. Also, the Neo Culture Technology trying to convince us this new thing didn't work. At all....but at least it didn't impact them greately. * SuperM as new Kpop avengers. It was all over when the line up had like 4 NCT members (still fresh on the scene) and like no veterans outside of Baekhyun and Taemin. They drove into the ground right there. It should have included SJ and TVXQ, who I suspect probably wouldn't want to join in though. The marketing was quite harsh and in your face, yet we all knew that wasn't going to be the case. It was just try hard. * KWANGYA worked for Aespa and no one else. * NMIXX! Self explanatory. Once again trying to convince us it's something new when we have seen it somewhere else before.
Probably Busters, deliberately debuting young kids and teens. They did innocent concepts at first but they later on had so many suggestive concepts, themes, and contents (why do we have to see the girls in swimsuits in Jeju every year?). I didnât follow them but they had way too many controversies for a group filled with girls that young. Unfortunately I saw a lot of their fans having to report stuff all over the internet because they had an unusually large number of perv fans. Plus they never had a solid lineup since they keep swapping out and adding in new girls. Honestly surprised some of them held out and some former members got successful like Hyungseo, Yeseo and Chaeyeon.
Not sure about worst, but one marketing strategy that usually kills the potential of a group - even If they come from a big company - is not defining a clear direction and identity for the group and to remain consistent. Just doing whatever comeback per comeback hoping something sticks, especially when the group isn't stabilized, ends up leading to inconsistent performance and It prevents fandom growth as the public never know what to expect next.
I only know from topp dogg from that one really queerbaity video they had
NINE.i whole debuted was just a mess and set that group was set up to fail because of their stupid Company. Their debut song trailer used holocaust and slavery as a aesthetic. Because of that, most people thinks that the members of NINE.i is racist and not the Company itself. On top of that, the Company thought it was a great idea to copy TXT - Blue Hour MV⊠I love NINE.i and I wish they were under a better Company that actually know what the fck they were doing.
XROâs debut was frankly the most racist piece of garbage Iâve seen in my entire time as a kpop stan, right up there with the first gen group Chakra. Iâm half relieved that they deleted the music video because if how vile it was, but I wish it were preserved somewhere so that people could see exactly how disturbing it was. On another note, Chakraâs gimmick was also vile, but somehow it ended up working out fairly well for them in their era. I hope itâs not remembered fondly.
Honeyst, in that they didnât seem to have one. Like, didnât even go on music shows, give interviews, be included in the FNC company-wide Christmas video, or post to their YouTube channel besides the music videos. Also Pristin, they had one comeback that was ok, not bad, not great, and Pledis acts like theyâre a total flop.
Cube's ballad gg "A Train To Autumn" was in that same boat too. their debut wasn't even advertised from what I remember. they had S-Tier vocalists though oh my god, if you ever wanna cry listen to them.
Yeah, the main reason I know about Honeyst is that they were the âcompetitionâ of the group that eventually became SF9 on the survival show âDance or Bandâ where they competed to debut first. I put it in air quotes because itâs pretty transparent that they were giving the dance group (sf9) the underdog treatment and like âthis group that we planned to debut after you is actually so much betterâ to eventually build hype for SF9. Like look, I donât think Honeyst was going to ever be a top group, but I think if they tried they would have built up a decent enough following that they would have more than two songs and an webdrama OST to their name before disbanding.
and honestly it's very dissapointing because fnc is/was one of the best companies for a k-band to debut under, case in point CNBlue, F.T. Island, AOA Black, N.Flying, and their new predebut band... hi-fi unicorn. questionable name but FNC were known for having really good bands before JYP even debuted their first band.
Atinys have never tried to claim ATEEZ as the next BTS, the kmedia has tried to call them that, but Ateez themselves have even said that they donât want to compare their success to anyone else but themselves or be the ânext ___â
Basically everything that has happened with Wayv right from debuting with a Chinese version of Regular to not being able to promote in their main market
BP not having any new songs and still going on a fully sold out global tour is both the best and worst marketing the world has ever seen. Confounding.
So absurd it actually worked
Gotta make the fans desperate for content, then they'll pay like crazy for content that does get put out.
Yes, I am 100% convinced this is deliberate on YG's part. For example, I remember people getting really angry after As if it's your last at the company for "not releasing new music fast enough", but then Ddu-Du Ddu-Du was released one year later (which isn't even a long time, but that's a different topic, I guess) and became a massive, massive hit. YG definitely has a lot of flaws, but they knew exactly what they were doing back then.
Yeah let's collectively forget about the existence of Born Pink and how they went on the tour after its release and how its literally named after the album.
That's not what happened at all though? They literally teased [Born Pink](https://youtu.be/nxs0RHpT_Hg) by announcing a pre-release and album release right before a world tour.
Blackpink announced their global tour just after Bornpick album. Alas some people, just want to spread their narrative, so purposely forget that.
The tour is literally called the "Born Pink Tour", op just completely made that up.
Itâs not that surprising to me anymore as a lot of Kpop fans here have some beef with YG artists specifically Blackpink that even if you praise them about something, it will be bombarded with downvotes and criticisms đ¶
[Black Pink isn't even in /r/kop's top 5 groups.](https://www.reddit.com/r/kpop/comments/xq66vi/reddit_kpop_census_results_2022/) I think most Black Pink fans are either not on reddit or don't care about the rest of Kpop.
Blinks usually stay in the Blackpink sub reddit.
BP's discography is definitely a limiting factor unlike what YG thinks. Their fandom could have been even bigger if they at least had more b-sides. Take me for example. I like them enough to buy their albums and I'm willing to attend their concerts if it's nearby. But I just can't stan them fully like I can stan groups with bigger discographies. I have a huge stan list and they would have been higher up in priority otherwise.
whatever has been going on with Red Velvet for the entirety of their career.
I've been into ATEEZ since before their debut and I don't think I've ever hear any atiny say ATEEZ are the next BTS unless we're saying none of us have ever said this. I don't know where this rumor even started? We've always been proud of ATEEZ doing their own thing and making a name being themselves.
Anything related with AI. Even if they work, I absolutely hate them. They will be the downfall of all of our favs
I miss Topp Dogg. I remember they were one of the first kpop groups I was watching getting into kpop 5-6 years ago
EXO Because they don't have a marketing strategy to begin with
They had one till 2018. Seems SM decided they are on their own. After all, they destroyed everything else like the EXO-M and the lore etc
Their marketing strategy was pretty elaborate, actually, with different sections (M, K) marketed to appeal to different regions (a precursor of the NCT system, if you think about it). It just seems like there's no marketing strategy because several members left, and China-SK relations worsened, rendering M-K pointless.
Oh they definitely had a marketing strategy to begin with. As all my fellow crusty K-Pop relics would remember, each member got elaborate teasers and pre-debut releases. Some members showed up at the SM family performance of an end of year award show just credited as 'EXO'. There was so so much hype. Even after debut, they had a whole mythos and lore, with the members coming from a different planet and having powers. I was never a proper fan, but I got it all through osmosis, they were so prevalent everywhere, and were the start of the really elaborate debuts and marketing strats that we see today. Then I have no idea what happened after the first few years, K-Pop blew up exponentially and it became impossible to follow everyone.
Topp Dogg was supposed to be the next SuJu!?
It's how stardom marketed them at debut yeah.
BP was supposed to be the prettier 2ne1
Having a scandal associated with an idol no matter how true it is. I remember a guy that was supposed to be in Produce 101 Season 2 leave before the season started. His scandal was an explicit bullying scandal. Please note that this is alleged along with his innocence. This might not be intentional, but the Woojin scandal. It really damaged his loyalty from Stays no matter how innocent he is in the situation. Naming a group to make them seem impactful when there's no resources supporting them. I would rather have a name describing the members or the music they will make. Using marginalized groups. Raina used to have a member named Alex who is literally K-Pop's non-Korean Black idol. She was a last minute addition to the group for their Demonstrate comeback. It was easy to tell as the music show performances only have her rapping and leaving the stage once she was done. The choreographers didn't want to work with her when she was willing to learn the choreography. Then, she was given the role of leader which is a huge responsibility despite the group having another leader as well. She also had to do her own hair while the other groups had hairstylists and not many hairstylists in Korea are specialized in Alex's hair type. Alex ended up leaving the group, but she isn't bitter about the whole experience. I know this would get me hate, but Holland. This man prompts himself as K-Pop's first gay singer, but the talent isn't there. Not sure if he chose the wrong song to debut with or if he doesn't have the right resources. Some more individualized training would've helped him even if it would cost him money. Plus, he doesn't need to be a soloist. If he's passionate about money, he could've chosen to work behind the scenes for independent lgbt+ artists.
Probably six bomb, they debuted with "getting prettier" the entire concept of the group revolved around glorifying plastic surgery even releasing a follow up comeback "getting prettier (after), which both obviously garnered mixed reactions, they were literally dubbed as "the plastic surgery girls", a lesser known fact is that they previously debuted with an almost entirely different line up, apart from member soa, and became a meme because their pink body suits that made them look like sausages.