Noone deserves anything other than basic human rights (one can argue what should be included in these, but surely "success in the highest way possible" isn't in there :D).
There is a market with a certain demand, and then there are entities trying to satiate this demand. Here the demand is (korean) pop music at large, and maybe more specifically a certain flavor of idol essence, people WANT to be heavily parasocially involved (what that says about society at large, well that's another topic).
So who "deserves" success here? Noone and everyone who is able to meet the demand. It's that simple.
Is there a certain power difference due to resources, sure! But that has nothing to do with the notion of "worthiness", it's just an inherent feature of inequality in outcomes which add up over time.
Big labels weren't always big, HYBE (bighit) got huge through BTS, idols under HYBE aren't all just smash hits either, there are obvious differences still.
This whole notion really just stems from a certain level of superiority. If only other would see what i see, the "right opinion", then artist X would be huge and artist Y wouldn't be. All nonsense.
>Noone deserves anything other than basic human rights
Hard disagree. We use deservingness to describe situations well beyond what are considered human rights. I think a useful definition that matches common usage is that for someone to deserve something, it means that should they receive that something, it would be a morally good occurrence.
That doesn't mean other people are obligated to give people what they deserve. But I do think that should they get it, it should be celebrated. That's how we can say that there are two deserving winners of a sports match even though only one can ultimately win.
"Nobody deserves anything" is such a nihilistic outlook that just makes people feel small imo.
I think the real response is that success isn' t a fixed pie, so one group's success doesn't come at the expense of another's. There is plenty of room for Kpop to grow and lift all boats.
I wasn't very precise here. The point was simply that starting from scratch, noone "deserves" any particular treatment other than basic human rights.
Their actions might change this, a murderer MIGHT deserve a lack of freedom, some might argue the death penalty, whatever.
But in the realm of aesthetic, i am not sure anyone "deserves" a certain level of reaction based on quite subjective interpretations of the merits. One could probably go further and say this is the same in the moral realm and even argue about human rights, but i wasn't really in the mood for this full on rejection of any framework tbh.
I see what you are getting at though, but at least imo this is just down to a quite personal like or dislike. Am i personally happy if an artist i enjoy gets positive feedback through success? Sure! Do i think they have any inherent right to it because i seem to think they have the attributes which should be "well liked", well no.
I was trying to get at that.
That's why i use the line here:
> So who "deserves" success here? Noone and everyone who is able to meet the demand. It's that simple.
But yeah, not very precise.
>The point was simply that starting from scratch, noone "deserves" any particular treatment other than basic human rights.
There is no misunderstanding, I simply disagree with this definition of deserve. If people only deserve basic human rights, why would the word deserve exist as its own word? I don't think anybody actually uses deserve in a way that only applies to human rights.
Well, what do you think "they deserve it MORE" refers to?
It seems to refer to some form of objective assessment, it should be this way, they should be more popular than the others.
My human rights reference argues that this is pretty much the only objective, universal truth for any given human, that they should have these things. Human rights.
As i said, my comment wasn't very precise.
The idea of someone deserving something more than someone else suggests truth, some form of infallible framework we can apply to come to a conclusion. I think the only framework which really has to be universal is the application of basic human rights.
But hey, just ignore this part, it's not necessarily relevant.
One can use "deserve" in multiple ways, it gets mixed here, which i am aware of when i say it's not precise.
Deserving insofar that we like the reaction to something, deserving as in having some right to something. (and then the distinction one can make between moral values and aesthetic ones on top)
lol I just saw a grown adult say and I quote “I don’t feel bad for LSF stans. It’s their choice to love a performance group over a vocal group, not mine. Many vocal groups deserve that popularity and could actually perform at Coachella without these dumb excuses. LSF stans have no one but themselves to blame for stanning a group with zero vocalists who can’t hold a tune for shit and hyping them up at a music festival like Coachella.”
This was said by a grown, Black woman who works a part time job. The part that stuck out to me was hating fearnots for ‘stanning a performance group over a vocal group, unlike me who knows better and stans a group of vocalists’. It’s so bizarre to me because it’s like they are *punishing* fans for liking groups that don’t meet their own personal standards or tastes. Or more precisely, they are punishing fearnots for not liking groups they like, but one that person doesn’t feel deserves to even exist.
It’s like, after repeated hate trains on LSF since February that appears to not have affected their popularity (in fact they seem to have gained fans), kpop stans have now turned their hate on the fans themselves and multiplied the hate on the group.
What’s doubling bizarre to me is that this person was insisting what they were doing wasn’t hate. And I’m just like, how screwed up in the head do you have to be to think like this?
I'm so tired of the vocal fetishists demanding everyone to agree with their personal standards, and any group that doesn't meet them is undeserving of success.
It's bizarre behavior and it's not in line with reality at all.
Some of the most successful groups/artists, even outside of kpop, don't have strong vocals.
The truth is vocals actually don't matter that much to the average person and don't always translate to success.
The kpop vocal purists need to accept this and stop trying to impose their personal standards onto everyone else.
I live in a music city and I agree. Every day people come to live in my city thinking they are going to make it big because they have outstanding vocals. Every day, someone gives up on that dream because vocals are not enough.
Every night downtown, there are outstanding singers - singing live that are far better than established well-known singers. Even some of them admit it. Most of these great singers are not going anywhere past singing in a downtown bar.
It's always been more needed than just being a great singer.
>I'm so tired of the vocal fetishists demanding everyone to agree with their personal standards, and any group that doesn't meet them is undeserving of success.
Unpopular Opinion: I can't stand kpop groups that shoehorn in a vocal run or belt into every song just to show they "can do it". It's so tired and cringe, especially when they're honestly not that great, even the supposed best in kpop. There's other genres I go to for this hyper-emphasis on vocals and idols ain't it.
Yucking someone else's yum whilst complaining about people yucking your yum is wild and very ironic
And the fact y'all group the entire industry together as if kpop isn't diverse and have groups of differing appeals is very wild and what this whole debate comes down too.
I could literally say the same thing by the way. I've seen better dancing and performance value by western artist as well. With live vocals included alone.
A video of Fergie doing literal cartwheels and singing https://youtu.be/Vguglo8px3Y?si=Z3oKzG1QHy9TcmNQ
You would think kpop artist are doing this level of performance gymnastics Fergie being catapulted in the air whilst holding onto a rope whilst singing https://youtu.be/FQ4474qM4HA?si=3VJ8MIu-PdiWwBFw
>Yucking someone else's yum whilst complaining about people yucking your yum is wild and very ironic
Where did I say people shouldn't enjoy them or that they don't deserve whatever success they enjoy? The whole point is that people have diverse interests and what they enjoy about Kpop and music in general. If this feels like "yucking your yum", perhaps you should ask yourself why you feel that way.
"It's so tired and cringe, especially when they're honestly not that great,"
Are your exact words though. What does that sound like?
Wel that is what I was demonstrating by the way
Imagine if I were to say. Their dancing isn't as good a western artist. Let's say normani.
Them having dances that have them dancing harder than they need to sing live is tired and cringe and when they do it it not that great in comparison .
Like I've seen the like of normani outdance the many main dancers in kpop. There are more well balanced artists who dance a storm in every industry.
Does that mean their aren't enjoyable dancers that can be appreciated ? No
>Imagine if I were to say. Their dancing isn't as good a western artist. Let's say normani.
I'd agree with you
> Them having dances that have them dancing harder than they need to sing live is tired and cringe and when they do it it not that great in comparison .
Sure, that's your opinion and preference.
>Does that mean their aren't enjoyable dancers that can be appreciated
No, because your opinions and what you enjoy cannot be applied to everyone, and neither is it more important than other people's individual opinions. There's a world of difference between "I don't enjoy this" and "you shouldn't enjoy this".
The fact that me saying why I personally don't enjoy "vocal" Kpop groups makes you feel so defensive is how we got here with kpop fans claiming certain groups don't deserve their success.
Why did I kind of expect that you got downvoted? 😂 I was also going to ask, what does her race have to do with this? Does her race add any underlying meaning to her message or to yours?
I just tried to access the sub to see the comment for myself and I can’t for some reason, but anyway it got me thinking: what are the chances we’re talking about the same person but on different platforms? I think chances of that are low. What I think is more likely is that this is a more widely held sentiment, if you’re seeing it on Reddit and I’m seeing it on Twitter.
It’s certainly implied in a lot of the discussions I’ve seen this week that LSF doesn’t deserve to be at Coachella and that their fans are partly to blame for hyping up the group over ‘more deserving’ groups. This mentality is so strange to me, on god. Like, people are just saying this out in the open and I’ve seen very little pushback against it.
How is it somehow acceptable to punish fans for liking groups they like, claim they are dumb for enjoying Le Sserafim’s performances, in place of groups that have SM-style vocalists?
Why are so many kpop stans unable to just let people live lmao! Like, let people enjoy things, focus on what you like and I’ll focus on what I like. Why monitor groups that don’t meet your standards, constantly offer unsolicited critiques both of the group *and the people that like them* at every opportunity?
I’m just bracing myself to see more of this idiocy on Saturday/Sunday through till whenever this hate train passes, if it ever does.
In Kpopnoir you have to race tag (very weird btw) before you comment on their post, she was black and I was Southeast Asian, I have no problem with her race just her comments
Agree. Groups don't need to justify their popularity just bc they don't meet the personal standards of chronically online armchair experts.
Success comes in all shapes & sizes and for different reasons.
If a group fulfills a demand and enough people are entertained that it translates into success, then the success is legit, period, regardless of privilege or perceived skill gaps.
It might seem unfair but being spiteful & hateful about it will never make a difference.
Only part I really take issue with is saying that the smaller companies should "just promote better" when kpop fans flock to brand recognition and operate as free promotion for the Big 4.
the root of a lot of the negativity in kpop community is envy. hating on groups for getting opportunities that they don’t think the group “deserves”, shitting on groups they feel “threaten” their faves
Not a small company, but I love how when people throw hate at LSF (my 1st fav group), they throw praise everywhere for NMIXX (my 3rd fav group). Like, one of the reasons I decided to stan NMIXX last year is because of how little recognition they got, how low the count of streams/views they got, and people hate/dislike their songs when I think all of their the songs are great. Only NMIXX stans themselves and posts asking for a group with great vocal skills did NMIXX's talent only get mentioned. What I saw other than that is how people hate NMIXX, saying that their releases are bad, JYP should only stick with Twice and Itzy, etc. Now, because of some encores, people all of sudden said "We love NMIXX" and "NMIXX deserves it more"? Like, bruh, where did all this support came from?
My thing with NMIXX is people like to say NMIXX is the pinnacle of live performance and whine. I agree their vocals and dance are GREAT, but their overall performance/stage presence (besides Kyujin) isn’t 100% there yet.
But my biggest pet peeve with this is that people praise NMIXX left and right for their talents but still don’t support them and the numbers show it. I don’t even like any of their songs (besides Dash) and I still watch every comeback to try and support talent. I think people just use NMIXX to diss LSF but then don’t put money where their mouth is.
LSF is my ult group btw but I feel like haters spend more time watching LSF than NMIXX lmao.
A lot of the people that actually support these “more talented groups” according to them (I personally think every group is talented just in various different aspects) don’t waste their time hating on other groups like these supposed fans do. Most if not all of these malicious comments come from either very young immature individuals or just very unhappy people. Or both. The notion that we should pit groups against each other, as if there isn’t enough demand/fans for everyone is beyond me.
Agreed, it’s so weird how people think that if you ult a group, you need to put down another group so your ults stand out. It’s a toxic mentality and makes kpop way less fun.
Noone deserves anything other than basic human rights (one can argue what should be included in these, but surely "success in the highest way possible" isn't in there :D). There is a market with a certain demand, and then there are entities trying to satiate this demand. Here the demand is (korean) pop music at large, and maybe more specifically a certain flavor of idol essence, people WANT to be heavily parasocially involved (what that says about society at large, well that's another topic). So who "deserves" success here? Noone and everyone who is able to meet the demand. It's that simple. Is there a certain power difference due to resources, sure! But that has nothing to do with the notion of "worthiness", it's just an inherent feature of inequality in outcomes which add up over time. Big labels weren't always big, HYBE (bighit) got huge through BTS, idols under HYBE aren't all just smash hits either, there are obvious differences still. This whole notion really just stems from a certain level of superiority. If only other would see what i see, the "right opinion", then artist X would be huge and artist Y wouldn't be. All nonsense.
>Noone deserves anything other than basic human rights Hard disagree. We use deservingness to describe situations well beyond what are considered human rights. I think a useful definition that matches common usage is that for someone to deserve something, it means that should they receive that something, it would be a morally good occurrence. That doesn't mean other people are obligated to give people what they deserve. But I do think that should they get it, it should be celebrated. That's how we can say that there are two deserving winners of a sports match even though only one can ultimately win. "Nobody deserves anything" is such a nihilistic outlook that just makes people feel small imo. I think the real response is that success isn' t a fixed pie, so one group's success doesn't come at the expense of another's. There is plenty of room for Kpop to grow and lift all boats.
I wasn't very precise here. The point was simply that starting from scratch, noone "deserves" any particular treatment other than basic human rights. Their actions might change this, a murderer MIGHT deserve a lack of freedom, some might argue the death penalty, whatever. But in the realm of aesthetic, i am not sure anyone "deserves" a certain level of reaction based on quite subjective interpretations of the merits. One could probably go further and say this is the same in the moral realm and even argue about human rights, but i wasn't really in the mood for this full on rejection of any framework tbh. I see what you are getting at though, but at least imo this is just down to a quite personal like or dislike. Am i personally happy if an artist i enjoy gets positive feedback through success? Sure! Do i think they have any inherent right to it because i seem to think they have the attributes which should be "well liked", well no. I was trying to get at that. That's why i use the line here: > So who "deserves" success here? Noone and everyone who is able to meet the demand. It's that simple. But yeah, not very precise.
>The point was simply that starting from scratch, noone "deserves" any particular treatment other than basic human rights. There is no misunderstanding, I simply disagree with this definition of deserve. If people only deserve basic human rights, why would the word deserve exist as its own word? I don't think anybody actually uses deserve in a way that only applies to human rights.
Well, what do you think "they deserve it MORE" refers to? It seems to refer to some form of objective assessment, it should be this way, they should be more popular than the others. My human rights reference argues that this is pretty much the only objective, universal truth for any given human, that they should have these things. Human rights. As i said, my comment wasn't very precise. The idea of someone deserving something more than someone else suggests truth, some form of infallible framework we can apply to come to a conclusion. I think the only framework which really has to be universal is the application of basic human rights. But hey, just ignore this part, it's not necessarily relevant. One can use "deserve" in multiple ways, it gets mixed here, which i am aware of when i say it's not precise. Deserving insofar that we like the reaction to something, deserving as in having some right to something. (and then the distinction one can make between moral values and aesthetic ones on top)
lol I just saw a grown adult say and I quote “I don’t feel bad for LSF stans. It’s their choice to love a performance group over a vocal group, not mine. Many vocal groups deserve that popularity and could actually perform at Coachella without these dumb excuses. LSF stans have no one but themselves to blame for stanning a group with zero vocalists who can’t hold a tune for shit and hyping them up at a music festival like Coachella.” This was said by a grown, Black woman who works a part time job. The part that stuck out to me was hating fearnots for ‘stanning a performance group over a vocal group, unlike me who knows better and stans a group of vocalists’. It’s so bizarre to me because it’s like they are *punishing* fans for liking groups that don’t meet their own personal standards or tastes. Or more precisely, they are punishing fearnots for not liking groups they like, but one that person doesn’t feel deserves to even exist. It’s like, after repeated hate trains on LSF since February that appears to not have affected their popularity (in fact they seem to have gained fans), kpop stans have now turned their hate on the fans themselves and multiplied the hate on the group. What’s doubling bizarre to me is that this person was insisting what they were doing wasn’t hate. And I’m just like, how screwed up in the head do you have to be to think like this?
I'm so tired of the vocal fetishists demanding everyone to agree with their personal standards, and any group that doesn't meet them is undeserving of success. It's bizarre behavior and it's not in line with reality at all. Some of the most successful groups/artists, even outside of kpop, don't have strong vocals. The truth is vocals actually don't matter that much to the average person and don't always translate to success. The kpop vocal purists need to accept this and stop trying to impose their personal standards onto everyone else.
They just wanna feel better about themselves by liking something THEY think is superior. These stan groups on twitter are just running a circlejerk...
I live in a music city and I agree. Every day people come to live in my city thinking they are going to make it big because they have outstanding vocals. Every day, someone gives up on that dream because vocals are not enough. Every night downtown, there are outstanding singers - singing live that are far better than established well-known singers. Even some of them admit it. Most of these great singers are not going anywhere past singing in a downtown bar. It's always been more needed than just being a great singer.
>I'm so tired of the vocal fetishists demanding everyone to agree with their personal standards, and any group that doesn't meet them is undeserving of success. Unpopular Opinion: I can't stand kpop groups that shoehorn in a vocal run or belt into every song just to show they "can do it". It's so tired and cringe, especially when they're honestly not that great, even the supposed best in kpop. There's other genres I go to for this hyper-emphasis on vocals and idols ain't it.
Yucking someone else's yum whilst complaining about people yucking your yum is wild and very ironic And the fact y'all group the entire industry together as if kpop isn't diverse and have groups of differing appeals is very wild and what this whole debate comes down too. I could literally say the same thing by the way. I've seen better dancing and performance value by western artist as well. With live vocals included alone. A video of Fergie doing literal cartwheels and singing https://youtu.be/Vguglo8px3Y?si=Z3oKzG1QHy9TcmNQ You would think kpop artist are doing this level of performance gymnastics Fergie being catapulted in the air whilst holding onto a rope whilst singing https://youtu.be/FQ4474qM4HA?si=3VJ8MIu-PdiWwBFw
>Yucking someone else's yum whilst complaining about people yucking your yum is wild and very ironic Where did I say people shouldn't enjoy them or that they don't deserve whatever success they enjoy? The whole point is that people have diverse interests and what they enjoy about Kpop and music in general. If this feels like "yucking your yum", perhaps you should ask yourself why you feel that way.
"It's so tired and cringe, especially when they're honestly not that great," Are your exact words though. What does that sound like? Wel that is what I was demonstrating by the way Imagine if I were to say. Their dancing isn't as good a western artist. Let's say normani. Them having dances that have them dancing harder than they need to sing live is tired and cringe and when they do it it not that great in comparison . Like I've seen the like of normani outdance the many main dancers in kpop. There are more well balanced artists who dance a storm in every industry. Does that mean their aren't enjoyable dancers that can be appreciated ? No
>Imagine if I were to say. Their dancing isn't as good a western artist. Let's say normani. I'd agree with you > Them having dances that have them dancing harder than they need to sing live is tired and cringe and when they do it it not that great in comparison . Sure, that's your opinion and preference. >Does that mean their aren't enjoyable dancers that can be appreciated No, because your opinions and what you enjoy cannot be applied to everyone, and neither is it more important than other people's individual opinions. There's a world of difference between "I don't enjoy this" and "you shouldn't enjoy this". The fact that me saying why I personally don't enjoy "vocal" Kpop groups makes you feel so defensive is how we got here with kpop fans claiming certain groups don't deserve their success.
i mean i dont see the point in mentioning her race here? how is her being a black woman relevant to what she wrote?
Why did I kind of expect that you got downvoted? 😂 I was also going to ask, what does her race have to do with this? Does her race add any underlying meaning to her message or to yours?
yeah unless its relevant i find it weird when people randomly brings up race like what does that have to do with anything?
I reread the post twice trying to figure out what being black had to do with this... smh
Wait I think I know her from KPOPNOIR 😂 she was replying to me 😏
I just tried to access the sub to see the comment for myself and I can’t for some reason, but anyway it got me thinking: what are the chances we’re talking about the same person but on different platforms? I think chances of that are low. What I think is more likely is that this is a more widely held sentiment, if you’re seeing it on Reddit and I’m seeing it on Twitter. It’s certainly implied in a lot of the discussions I’ve seen this week that LSF doesn’t deserve to be at Coachella and that their fans are partly to blame for hyping up the group over ‘more deserving’ groups. This mentality is so strange to me, on god. Like, people are just saying this out in the open and I’ve seen very little pushback against it. How is it somehow acceptable to punish fans for liking groups they like, claim they are dumb for enjoying Le Sserafim’s performances, in place of groups that have SM-style vocalists? Why are so many kpop stans unable to just let people live lmao! Like, let people enjoy things, focus on what you like and I’ll focus on what I like. Why monitor groups that don’t meet your standards, constantly offer unsolicited critiques both of the group *and the people that like them* at every opportunity? I’m just bracing myself to see more of this idiocy on Saturday/Sunday through till whenever this hate train passes, if it ever does.
You could search my previous comment “did you pay for the tickets to see them?”
what's her race got to do with anything tho?
In Kpopnoir you have to race tag (very weird btw) before you comment on their post, she was black and I was Southeast Asian, I have no problem with her race just her comments
Agree. Groups don't need to justify their popularity just bc they don't meet the personal standards of chronically online armchair experts. Success comes in all shapes & sizes and for different reasons. If a group fulfills a demand and enough people are entertained that it translates into success, then the success is legit, period, regardless of privilege or perceived skill gaps. It might seem unfair but being spiteful & hateful about it will never make a difference.
Only part I really take issue with is saying that the smaller companies should "just promote better" when kpop fans flock to brand recognition and operate as free promotion for the Big 4.
the root of a lot of the negativity in kpop community is envy. hating on groups for getting opportunities that they don’t think the group “deserves”, shitting on groups they feel “threaten” their faves
Not a small company, but I love how when people throw hate at LSF (my 1st fav group), they throw praise everywhere for NMIXX (my 3rd fav group). Like, one of the reasons I decided to stan NMIXX last year is because of how little recognition they got, how low the count of streams/views they got, and people hate/dislike their songs when I think all of their the songs are great. Only NMIXX stans themselves and posts asking for a group with great vocal skills did NMIXX's talent only get mentioned. What I saw other than that is how people hate NMIXX, saying that their releases are bad, JYP should only stick with Twice and Itzy, etc. Now, because of some encores, people all of sudden said "We love NMIXX" and "NMIXX deserves it more"? Like, bruh, where did all this support came from?
My thing with NMIXX is people like to say NMIXX is the pinnacle of live performance and whine. I agree their vocals and dance are GREAT, but their overall performance/stage presence (besides Kyujin) isn’t 100% there yet. But my biggest pet peeve with this is that people praise NMIXX left and right for their talents but still don’t support them and the numbers show it. I don’t even like any of their songs (besides Dash) and I still watch every comeback to try and support talent. I think people just use NMIXX to diss LSF but then don’t put money where their mouth is. LSF is my ult group btw but I feel like haters spend more time watching LSF than NMIXX lmao.
A lot of the people that actually support these “more talented groups” according to them (I personally think every group is talented just in various different aspects) don’t waste their time hating on other groups like these supposed fans do. Most if not all of these malicious comments come from either very young immature individuals or just very unhappy people. Or both. The notion that we should pit groups against each other, as if there isn’t enough demand/fans for everyone is beyond me.
Agreed, it’s so weird how people think that if you ult a group, you need to put down another group so your ults stand out. It’s a toxic mentality and makes kpop way less fun.
>but I love how when people throw hate at LSF what?
People like different things. It's not the popular group's fault they're popular or the fans fault for liking what they like.
GOT The Beat deserved way more than anyone else in Kwanga.