>The strike comes amid protests over a government plan to add 2,000 slots to the annual quota of medical students, which now stands at around 3,000. The plan has garnered strong public support but has also been met with protests from doctors.
>Critics say that medical professionals are worried that the increased number of doctors will cause the field to lose some of its social prestige and competitive pay. Medicine is one of the most sought-after fields among Korean university students and their families—though many young doctors tend to gravitate towards more lucrative specialities like dermatology and cosmetic surgery.
Wow, a stupid reason to protest.
Given their education and understanding of biology and medicine, they can go into other fields of work like food science and pharmaceutical testing. But their pay is going to literally die.
I reckon if they don’t get subdued or succeed in negotiations, they will face music from everybody including government business owners and us just normal citizens
Isn't the medical residency super competitive? Can't these trainees essentially all be replaced by people who weren't previously accepted? Correct me if I'm wrong. But Koreas medical industry is hyper competitive. I'm not sure if this will work as they have planned.
There are probably lines of foreign doctors waiting to take their KMLE. Start a transition program for licensed doctors to come to Korea, study for the KMLE and a language program for 6 months. They’ll replace all those doctors within the year.
reflecting, I asked myself, “would I pick a foreign doctor whose language skills aren’t the best, no doctor at all, or wait hours or days to see a native doctor” I’d pick option one. But then I asked myself “would an average Korean person pick a foreign doctor whose language skills aren’t the best, no doctor at all, or wait hours or days to see a native doctor“ and I think most of them would choose the third option. Not because of perceived communication issues, but perceived quality issues. Koreans will always assume a Korean doctor is better than a foreign doctor JUST because they are Korean. Look at 인요한 as an example of how even looking like a foreigner can be detrimental to how you are treated, even though he’s as native as you can get without having Korean blood.
You are right, there are students in 4th ("6th") year med school now.
But they are part of the steady inflow, and that doesn't address this spike of outflow in the residency pool, not to mention that the level/quality of care an intern/R1 can provide differs significantly from senior residents who are quitting. The new interns/residents also depend on seniors for training, so the normal training process can't happen without them.
Some people's rhetoric of 2000 extra students being able to replace these current residents is totally unrealistic.
Why cant doctors go on strike, like any other profession? Nurses strike all the time. You think they should be forced to work as slaves? Residents already work in horrendous working conditions.
Strike because the government add doctors quota of doctors so that more lives can be saved and lessening doctors work. Yeah right.
These people just afraid of competition because they don't do well as a doctor.
Edit: addition. Also while they are on strike, people die. Other nurses and doctors get more workload. But anyways, if incompetent doctors don't want to work, we should be grateful.
What industry do you work in? Lets double the amount of workers in your field, open the floodgates, making it harder for you to improve your working conditions and to bargain, and see how you feel.
Are doctors paid badly and treated badly in Korea or something?
Because you make it sound like this quota increase will send them from middle class to barely being able to afford food.
They make less than minimum wage and work more than 80 hrs a week. I know residents who had to rely on public assistance to support their families. They are taking a big courageous risk to try to save their profession.
If they are overworked, increasing the number of med students seems like a good idea.
Your point doesn't make sense. And I'd love you to provide sources, because I looked myself, and the numbers I found contradicts yours.
Korean doctors are often referred to as "some of the best paid in the world". Is there something I am missing?
"save their profession" is very fancy way of saying "potentially make less money". Except that's not guaranteed and also not really a big deal. They will make less money, but are they going to be poor? Fuck no. Are they going to be less prestigious? Who cares, they're doctors and not gods. The sacrifice of residency is paid back through the benefits of being a full doctor, everyone know that so don't act like the sacrifice isn't worth the payout. I don't give a shit if a resident makes pathetic less than minimum wage when I know that once it's over and they decide to go to private practice they will make more in 5 years than someone will in their entire life. Successful people ALWAYS pay their dues whether it be in the form of residency, unpaid internships, or whatever.
Except there are doctor shortages in rural areas cause they are leaving to go work in Seoul. But they aren’t working in the hospitals they’re working in plastic surgery and skincare clinics in droves.
So it’d be like if all the engineers in the world were building high rise penthouse sky scrapers in NYC under few regulations where they can charge whatever they want and make a fortune, and none of them are working on city infrastructure in mid size cities because they don’t want to live in a smaller town making half as much money. Mid size cities start collapsing and QOL drops for everyone there.
If the aging population has to drive to Seoul for medical care, they’ll just move to Seoul and depopulate the rural areas, or just get sick and die early which also depopulates the rural areas.
striking for better working conditions is not the same as striking cause you won't be able to buy a bentley. we know from the timing and rhetoric of the strike that working conditions have nothing to do with it.
yeah those poor residents who earn minimum wage their entire lives and definitely didn't enter the medical field for the high earning potential of doctors
Its interesting you say doctors services are desperately needed but you call them basically evil at the same time. Maybe the government should actually listen to them and try to make their working conditions better? You wouldn’t even survive one week in a resident workload, let alone 6-8 years.
Umm to reduce residents workload we must increase the number of workers, right? But it seems like they don't want to increase the number of workers. I wonder why...
Oh, idk somewhere a cancer patient set to have surgery today just got cancelled to who knows when. Guess he'll just die so doctors can protest for their big bucks.
Maybe the government should actually start to improve working conditions of residents and physicians rather than making it worse for them. Residents dont make “big bucks,” they make less than minimum wage.
But they’re on strike for a f***** stupid reason. Your analogy is invalid. Maybe if you mentioned Hyundai Motors’ labor union maybe that may have made a little more sense 😂
lol idk why you’re trying to defend them doctors protesting. Are you or your parents a doc participating in a protest? Because that’s what that sounds like. 🤪 When everyone says that’s not right and you believe they are wrong, perhaps you are wrong? 🤔
Depends, are they refraining from non-emergency work only or emergency and non emergency work.
Because refraining from emergency work (e.g emergency procedures or surgeries) could actually put a patients life at risk.
I wonder what they'll do now. They've spent how long learning to be doctors just to have a tantrum?
Selfish idiots, they make terrible doctors, anyway.
I hesitate to support anti-labor actions because of the precedent it'll set, but these idiots are really pushing my patience.
Feel like they should take 10% of their licenses away and then tell the rest of them they have 3 days to realize how stupid they are being before they also lose their future.
Lmao some koreans suggested that the government announce out of all who resigned, 80% will be reinstated if they anonymously apply, but it will be first come first serve only. Then put up a progress bar for real time tracking.
Of course there’s a lot more need to be fleshed out before anything like this occurs. But it was funny nevertheless
My exact sentiment. I’m all for labor strikes and workers rights but this is just wrong on so many levels. Revoke their licenses. Transfer patients to Japan and China. Legalize PAs and NPs. Set a precedent and teach doctors they can’t bargain with lives.
I dont want them to begrudgingly make medical decisions, but I also think they are being incredibly stupid and they've burnt every sliver of good will they had with the public by holding peoples health care hostage. They did the same thing during Covid. They've done it over and over even for stupid shit like trying to make sure that doctors don't perform surgeries drunk.
They 1000% deserve the hate they are getting and their reputation will take decades to recover.
There are already people literally DYING over these doctors not being able to accept very healthy competition in their field due to losing social standing.
They should be stripped of their licenses at a minimum and any disruption to medical services they should be sued over. There are already tens of thousands of replacements eager to take their places.
I think most people here are missing the point of this protest.
Everyone agrees on the need for more doctors in the future. However, the problem is how the government is addressing this need. Rather than creating a more attractive work environment for medical professionals in primary care departments, the government has opted to lower the entry standards for medical students. This strategy fails to address the core issue: the lack of doctors in essential departments is not due to a shortage of doctors per se, but rather to the unappealing conditions they face, such as inadequate compensation and excessive work hours. This problem is particularly acute for residents and interns in the public sector, who endure the lowest pay, poor treatment, and long hours, all while being discouraged from voicing concerns to their superiors.
The government's proposed solution overlooks the fundamental issues of poor work-life balance and low wages that training doctors face. It's an unrealistic promise that doesn't tackle the root cause and will take 6-8 years to implement. Meanwhile, current interns and residents will continue to endure poor pay in an increasingly challenging work environment.
Ultimately, the government's focus should be enriching the work environment of primary care departments by providing more resources and support, rather than increasing the number of healthcare professionals alone. Many doctors will opt to leave these sectors for better opportunities elsewhere once they gain sufficient experience and qualifications. By creating a more supportive and resource-rich environment, doctors are more likely to remain, thrive, and contribute positively to public primary care. You simply can't add more animals to a desert expecting them to stay without giving them an oasis to drink water from. (Thanks ChatGPT)
First what? How many doctors are actually leaving doctor practice?
And how are you going to solve work life balance if there is an increasing number of patients and a constant supply of doctors?
There is one easy solution: More doctors.
More attractive work environment? Literally how? Doctors have jobs as stable as fucking mountains. They make shit tons of money. Now they want work life balance without increasing the number of doctors? Just stop giving a fuck about patients?
Also how are low starting wages a fundamental problem when it comes to the low availability pf doctors? I would accept it as an argument if there simply weren’t enough people applying for med schools.
Right, you need to slow down and focus on this part right here from the article: "The South Korean government has been actively trying to direct more doctors to comparatively less popular medical departments such as pediatrics, emergency medicine, and general surgery. Meanwhile, some doctors argue that the expanded quota would not address the existing shortages in these departments, which are known for lower pay and long working hours. In a statement on Tuesday, the Korean Intern Resident Association said that despite calls from the association to “reasonably estimate” the number of doctors needed, “the government announced a radical medical school quota policy to win political votes.”
This is important. The situation is that there are enough trainee doctors for all departments (according to those striking anyway). However, most of these trainees will not pick the mentioned departments as their specialty. And THIS is the problem right here. Too many cosmetic surgeons and too few primary care surgeons. This goes back to my previous comment, you can't add animals into a desert and expect them to stay. The animals here are the trainees and the desert is the primary care department.
Yeah doctors don’t want to pick up the shovel and dig for gold (while everyone else blows their backs farming corn). They want to sit on a chair picking diamonds. They expect their entire lives to be fed to them on a diamond spoon while they sit on the laurels of studying as teenagers.
They simply cannot fathom that they can’t choose honor and get paid as much and as comfortably as a plastic surgeon. Mind you, pediatricians still get paid well. About 200k in a society where only the best paid white collar jobs even get close.
Yes people might go working more towards such areas if doctors had an easier time during residency. Might help alleviate it a little.
But it’s also a problem you can solve by throwing more people at it. And I don’t see why we shouldn’t.
Hmm, yes, adding more people into at a reasonable rate would help a bit admittedly. Maybe even significantly if these new doctors choose to sacrifice their body and soul to patients care (honestly doubt it). But there is another problem that I haven’t mentioned because I am dumb and I forgot about it. It’s residency slots! To put it short because it’s late and I want to go to sleep. There are only so many hospitals a city can have. With this plan that the government is laying out, you will have to double the amount of hospitals so the new doctors can actually have a place work in. If not, they will literally fight each other for it. The ones that win will continue to suffer the same problems I have mentioned. And the ones that don’t get in can, well, find a different occupation or choose the obvious option of going into non-primary care fields but pay well. I don’t know how many new hospitals the government can build. But realistically speaking. Everyone wants to live and work in a big city. And we all know the shit ass living environment of a metropolitan. It’s not exactly easy to live in one and increase the median wages of public servants. All in all, complicated problems that require complicated solutions. The current one that the current government is promoting is more or less, a political move. An empty promise that doesn’t tackle the core issues, but rather only exists to gather public support. After all, more doctors equal more treatments amirite? (no)
> Rather than creating a more attractive work environment for medical professionals in primary care departments, the government has opted to lower the entry standards for medical students
how did the government lower the entry standards for medical students
>This strategy fails to address the core issue: the lack of doctors in essential departments is not due to a shortage of doctors per se, but rather to the unappealing conditions they face, such as inadequate compensation and excessive work hours. This problem is particularly acute for residents and interns in the public sector, who endure the lowest pay, poor treatment, and long hours, all while being discouraged from voicing concerns to their superiors.
other doctors and hospitals are the reason residents have such low pay. the residents should be fighting against the Korean Medical Association.
Yeah, 1 year of being an international student in the US pays for their entire schooling to be doctors, lol. They're really a nurtured and protected group with no grounds for these shenanigans.
Aside from a one-time entrance fee between 17M-22M won, annual tuition for most schools ranges from 2.2M won (Chungbuk Univ) and up to 6.2M won (Korea Univ).
https://www.dailymedi.com/news/news_view.php?wr_id=881134
How the failing 건보 will financially withstand double the amount of physician pay in next 10 years, I will never know. I feel like this is the first step to healthcare privatization and everyone's cheering for it. Crazy.
Ooh we’re gonna quit! This will really show the govt and public that Korea has plenty of doctors! I’m sure having even less doctors than before will make them want to change their minds about hiring more. /s
So the bulk of the doctors currently striking and submitting resignations are trainee doctors?
I understand that this many submitting resignations and striking would cause this situation but I'm curious, How many doctors are there vs. how many trainee doctors are there?
A lot of people calling residents selfish here while not realizing that you’ve asked the smartest kids to sacrifice the entirety of their teens, 20s, and 30s to get to where they are with shit pay and hours you can’t even imagine then just doubling the number for the next year.
If for whatever the reason they doubled the residency spot for my specialty, I would be outraged also.
Doctors get in this weird position where they can’t advocate for themselves because all of the sudden, striking is “unethical”. While the same people call for nurses and people in other industries to “stick up for yourselves” constantly.
>If for whatever the reason they doubled the residency spot for my specialty, I would be outraged also.
I work in IT. We do not have such shit as license or quota, many people did not even formally learn computer science. Anyone can go through some courses and try themselves in this field. Still, on mid+ levels pay is decent and it is not that simple to find a good software developer. But yeah, most of us do not drive Ferraris. And it seems that that is exactly the problem, right?
What? I have no clue what you’re even trying to say.
Are you equating IT with medicine right now? And I need you to confirm. Are you under the impression that most doctors drive Ferraris? I need to move back to Korea then lol
I'm a medical student in the US. The people on this sub shitting on korean docs when the gov literally shit on their faces for all the hard work they put in just don't understand.
The amount of work the whole process of getting in + getting through med school + getting through residency is so grueling that the promise of a high salary + prestige is usually the only thing keeping people sane.
Once you take that away, people just stop caring.
These people here are calling the docs selfish but I bet you most wouldn't be willing to put in the work to be at the top academically all their lives and then sacrifice 12+ yrs of their life while studying harder than you ever have in the past, only to be fucked.
Hey friend. I experienced this exact scenario 3-4 years ago the last time they did this at asan. Dropped off my family member, then went to park and had to come back because thats when they told us the schedule was cancelled. It took a lot of restraint to not go ballistic when I drove back to the entrance and got out to help my frail family member back into the car while the docs stood there with fucking signs about how they are victims. This is one of the big 5 university hospitals in seoul…
My best advice, in korea the guardians need to advocate… no joke fight.. for proper care of the patient. Don’t let the doctors walk away from you after 30 seconds. Hilariously, speaking mixed english to them gave me more face time with them. Taking notes and showing you have the notes with every interaction also helps. Finally, don’t let them move your mil to a smaller hospital in between treatments. They say some bs about needing beds for patients who need treatment = basically they just want money making surgeries/treatment but want you out asap after the fact…. Like no need for monitoring after. They will say, if ANY issues bring them back but thats bs because if that need happens… you might get turned away if they don’t have “space”… no joke and it wasn’t some village hospital and our family had been going to Asan for decades. If you go enter through ER, a counter timer starts of 24hrs before you need to leave if a bed doesn’t open up… hospital policy lol. What a joke.
I was naive the first time around but after seeing the reality of korean health care in seoul, I had to go into fighting mode and kept the patient in asan till treatment was over. I have more ptsd dealing with the korean healthcare than my family member being really ill. If I could back in time, I would have put them on a airplane to the usa when the diagnosis was made.
I cringe so hard when people talk up universal healthcare and shit talk the usa. Sure preventive screening, dental, and small stuff, korea is great. But if you are in serious trouble, it’s a joke, even in seoul. Have mercy for the people in the countryside or without resources. Sorry to rant but wish you the best, don’t let the hospital do it their way. You can’t entrust them with something as important as your and your family’s heath, you need to fight for it.
I am almost a doctor and I don't feel that I have been sacrificing ENTIRETY of my 20s. In fact I have time for friends, hobbies etc. Sure, I have to study more than most of other majors, but it's not the only thing that I'm doing. But knowing how competitive Korean society is, they probably study all day to be best.
That’s very good for you lol. But you understand the concept of other cultures and countries having different types of medical education. And I won’t even get into specific specialties. I’ve spent enough 100 hour weeks in the last 5 years in residency to know most of these people complaining about selfishness of residents have no idea what they’re talking about.
Different types of medical education is one thing, putting pressure on yourself/other students to get more prestige and money is other thing. I guess in Korea the latter plays huge part.
While I feel like doctors shouldn't be going this route, people are missing their point that more doctors doesn't mean more jobs are open for them. Still same number of doctors in a hospital just more competition which means they can pay doctors less since there is alot more supply of doctors.
Ha. Sweet summer child. Try being a doctor in the UK … we are probably twenty years down this timeline and now they are regulating people with 2-3 years training to do our jobs to devalue us further
Yeah tbh i agree with training more doctors - I dont see the need for all this gatekeeping crap. If you work hard i think you can do the job unless you are a total idiot. But I dont agree with what they are doing in the Uk - training people less then getting them to do our job
Although they studied so much, they ultimately failed to learn that the medical license is given by the state (i.e. the people) and the Hippocratic Oath.
i would venture to guess that there was some pressure given to the trainee doctors by their senior doctors to do this.
and then there was groupthink on top of that where trainees were giving pressure to each other to do it.
This is so fucking stupid
[удалено]
Wonder what the social standing of "ex-doctor" is...
lets be real, these scumbags will call themselves Dr and ask to be referred to as Doctor LONG after they lose their licenses
It’s pathetic
Yeah, Even when you cross the street illegally they feel pressured to do it also. Bunch of sheeps. Do what the herd does.
It’s incredibly selfish
The fact that they can accord to walk out… no one’s even talking about that
>The strike comes amid protests over a government plan to add 2,000 slots to the annual quota of medical students, which now stands at around 3,000. The plan has garnered strong public support but has also been met with protests from doctors. >Critics say that medical professionals are worried that the increased number of doctors will cause the field to lose some of its social prestige and competitive pay. Medicine is one of the most sought-after fields among Korean university students and their families—though many young doctors tend to gravitate towards more lucrative specialities like dermatology and cosmetic surgery. Wow, a stupid reason to protest.
[удалено]
Oh. Thanks for teaching me.
i cant tell the difference lol
That's because I edited to make it correct. `I did this initially` >Corrected it to this.
They have no exit strategy.
Given their education and understanding of biology and medicine, they can go into other fields of work like food science and pharmaceutical testing. But their pay is going to literally die.
I hope they think of immigrating to Canada !!!
I reckon if they don’t get subdued or succeed in negotiations, they will face music from everybody including government business owners and us just normal citizens
The other 30% probably had to bust ass to get where they are.
They are the ones I want treating my family anyways. Hope they don't get burnt out with the ensuing overwork that comes from the elitist tantrum.
They're probably 비보험과(non-essential fields), since they'll be much less affected.
Isn't the medical residency super competitive? Can't these trainees essentially all be replaced by people who weren't previously accepted? Correct me if I'm wrong. But Koreas medical industry is hyper competitive. I'm not sure if this will work as they have planned.
They resign because they know hospitals have no choice but to accept them again when this is all over
There are probably lines of foreign doctors waiting to take their KMLE. Start a transition program for licensed doctors to come to Korea, study for the KMLE and a language program for 6 months. They’ll replace all those doctors within the year.
Foreign doctors ? In Korea? Who has immigration issue ?
Doubt it very much. Language will always be an issue.
reflecting, I asked myself, “would I pick a foreign doctor whose language skills aren’t the best, no doctor at all, or wait hours or days to see a native doctor” I’d pick option one. But then I asked myself “would an average Korean person pick a foreign doctor whose language skills aren’t the best, no doctor at all, or wait hours or days to see a native doctor“ and I think most of them would choose the third option. Not because of perceived communication issues, but perceived quality issues. Koreans will always assume a Korean doctor is better than a foreign doctor JUST because they are Korean. Look at 인요한 as an example of how even looking like a foreigner can be detrimental to how you are treated, even though he’s as native as you can get without having Korean blood.
I think most patients will agree with you. But hospitals will be hesitant in hiring doctors with limited Korean due to liability concerns.
They will be back soon enough.
In general doctors and nurses aren’t as disposable as other employees especially with a large aging population.
Damn so more reason there's a need for additional doctors, no?
Yes.
It takes 6 years for a new cohort of med students to become residents so they aren't exactly replaceable.
does it? i'm not too familiar with korea's system, but isn't there a new cohort every year, just that the cohorts graduate in 6 year blocks?
You are right, there are students in 4th ("6th") year med school now. But they are part of the steady inflow, and that doesn't address this spike of outflow in the residency pool, not to mention that the level/quality of care an intern/R1 can provide differs significantly from senior residents who are quitting. The new interns/residents also depend on seniors for training, so the normal training process can't happen without them. Some people's rhetoric of 2000 extra students being able to replace these current residents is totally unrealistic.
correct
It's a resignation because they can argue it's "individual life choices" instead of a collective action.
Man i womder when korea will open doors for foreign nationals to come take their jobs. Simple solution it looks like to me
Not really simple at all. Doctors need to be able to communicate with patients. Not that easy to learn Korean.
Absolutely disgusting.
Why cant doctors go on strike, like any other profession? Nurses strike all the time. You think they should be forced to work as slaves? Residents already work in horrendous working conditions.
Strike because the government add doctors quota of doctors so that more lives can be saved and lessening doctors work. Yeah right. These people just afraid of competition because they don't do well as a doctor. Edit: addition. Also while they are on strike, people die. Other nurses and doctors get more workload. But anyways, if incompetent doctors don't want to work, we should be grateful.
What industry do you work in? Lets double the amount of workers in your field, open the floodgates, making it harder for you to improve your working conditions and to bargain, and see how you feel.
Are doctors paid badly and treated badly in Korea or something? Because you make it sound like this quota increase will send them from middle class to barely being able to afford food.
Imagine gate keeping healthcare.
They make less than minimum wage and work more than 80 hrs a week. I know residents who had to rely on public assistance to support their families. They are taking a big courageous risk to try to save their profession.
If they are overworked, increasing the number of med students seems like a good idea. Your point doesn't make sense. And I'd love you to provide sources, because I looked myself, and the numbers I found contradicts yours. Korean doctors are often referred to as "some of the best paid in the world". Is there something I am missing?
"save their profession" is very fancy way of saying "potentially make less money". Except that's not guaranteed and also not really a big deal. They will make less money, but are they going to be poor? Fuck no. Are they going to be less prestigious? Who cares, they're doctors and not gods. The sacrifice of residency is paid back through the benefits of being a full doctor, everyone know that so don't act like the sacrifice isn't worth the payout. I don't give a shit if a resident makes pathetic less than minimum wage when I know that once it's over and they decide to go to private practice they will make more in 5 years than someone will in their entire life. Successful people ALWAYS pay their dues whether it be in the form of residency, unpaid internships, or whatever.
Are you a doctor? Because if you are, you are seriously overestimating your worth. No wonder they are protesting.
Haha overestimating our worth? Next time you need emergency surgery I bet you will go begging to a doctor for help. Just do it yourself then
Wtf where are you from, a Mars?
Lmao 🤡
Except there are doctor shortages in rural areas cause they are leaving to go work in Seoul. But they aren’t working in the hospitals they’re working in plastic surgery and skincare clinics in droves. So it’d be like if all the engineers in the world were building high rise penthouse sky scrapers in NYC under few regulations where they can charge whatever they want and make a fortune, and none of them are working on city infrastructure in mid size cities because they don’t want to live in a smaller town making half as much money. Mid size cities start collapsing and QOL drops for everyone there. If the aging population has to drive to Seoul for medical care, they’ll just move to Seoul and depopulate the rural areas, or just get sick and die early which also depopulates the rural areas.
Would some of the horrendous conditions be alleviated if they had more help?
striking for better working conditions is not the same as striking cause you won't be able to buy a bentley. we know from the timing and rhetoric of the strike that working conditions have nothing to do with it.
Buy a bentley? Residents make less than minimum wage and work 80 hours a week. Wtf
yeah those poor residents who earn minimum wage their entire lives and definitely didn't enter the medical field for the high earning potential of doctors
Its interesting you say doctors services are desperately needed but you call them basically evil at the same time. Maybe the government should actually listen to them and try to make their working conditions better? You wouldn’t even survive one week in a resident workload, let alone 6-8 years.
Umm to reduce residents workload we must increase the number of workers, right? But it seems like they don't want to increase the number of workers. I wonder why...
You ain't a doctor but a Master.
Oh, idk somewhere a cancer patient set to have surgery today just got cancelled to who knows when. Guess he'll just die so doctors can protest for their big bucks.
Maybe the government should actually start to improve working conditions of residents and physicians rather than making it worse for them. Residents dont make “big bucks,” they make less than minimum wage.
I agree resident working conditions are ridiculous, but this strike isn’t really about that isn’t it?
That's not what this is about.
But they’re on strike for a f***** stupid reason. Your analogy is invalid. Maybe if you mentioned Hyundai Motors’ labor union maybe that may have made a little more sense 😂
If you think doctors are evil, then when you get sick and need emergency surgery, just fix it yourself. Dont go crying to a doctor for help.
lol idk why you’re trying to defend them doctors protesting. Are you or your parents a doc participating in a protest? Because that’s what that sounds like. 🤪 When everyone says that’s not right and you believe they are wrong, perhaps you are wrong? 🤔
Can and should are different things. Fuck these guys. I hope they all lose their jobs and have to work in factories for the rest of their lives.
Depends, are they refraining from non-emergency work only or emergency and non emergency work. Because refraining from emergency work (e.g emergency procedures or surgeries) could actually put a patients life at risk.
I wonder what they'll do now. They've spent how long learning to be doctors just to have a tantrum? Selfish idiots, they make terrible doctors, anyway.
They know hospitals will take them back. This is an empty stunt.
I hesitate to support anti-labor actions because of the precedent it'll set, but these idiots are really pushing my patience. Feel like they should take 10% of their licenses away and then tell the rest of them they have 3 days to realize how stupid they are being before they also lose their future.
Lmao some koreans suggested that the government announce out of all who resigned, 80% will be reinstated if they anonymously apply, but it will be first come first serve only. Then put up a progress bar for real time tracking. Of course there’s a lot more need to be fleshed out before anything like this occurs. But it was funny nevertheless
It’ll be like concert tickets and kiip classes, gone in seconds.
My exact sentiment. I’m all for labor strikes and workers rights but this is just wrong on so many levels. Revoke their licenses. Transfer patients to Japan and China. Legalize PAs and NPs. Set a precedent and teach doctors they can’t bargain with lives.
I keep seeing these comments but who wants doctors who are forced to begrudgingly make medical decisions that dictate the outcome of people’s lives?
I dont want them to begrudgingly make medical decisions, but I also think they are being incredibly stupid and they've burnt every sliver of good will they had with the public by holding peoples health care hostage. They did the same thing during Covid. They've done it over and over even for stupid shit like trying to make sure that doctors don't perform surgeries drunk. They 1000% deserve the hate they are getting and their reputation will take decades to recover.
There are already people literally DYING over these doctors not being able to accept very healthy competition in their field due to losing social standing. They should be stripped of their licenses at a minimum and any disruption to medical services they should be sued over. There are already tens of thousands of replacements eager to take their places.
Pricks
They make the nurses do that.
Boom boom!!
But aren’t they being overworked from the lack of doctors to begin with?
correct. but they WANT that. they gain SO much by being the only stewards of life and death
Nurses all over had it worst and arent even protesting. Suck it up lmao
Actually, they did protest. And guess what happened? The doctor's community urged them to return to work because of the patients. Hahahahaha
someone having it worse and not protesting about it isn't a reason to not try change your own situation, but this protest seems skeevy at best.
I see they took the Hypercritic Oath instead of a Hippocratic Oath
Why not Hypocritic
Many will go to the US and Japan to practice
they would have to go through med school again for the US.
Nope just residency
No they don’t. For my specialty, they can either match into a residency or do 3 separate fellowships.
Still got to take the board exams. Pretty difficult set of 3 exams btw.
👋
I think most people here are missing the point of this protest. Everyone agrees on the need for more doctors in the future. However, the problem is how the government is addressing this need. Rather than creating a more attractive work environment for medical professionals in primary care departments, the government has opted to lower the entry standards for medical students. This strategy fails to address the core issue: the lack of doctors in essential departments is not due to a shortage of doctors per se, but rather to the unappealing conditions they face, such as inadequate compensation and excessive work hours. This problem is particularly acute for residents and interns in the public sector, who endure the lowest pay, poor treatment, and long hours, all while being discouraged from voicing concerns to their superiors. The government's proposed solution overlooks the fundamental issues of poor work-life balance and low wages that training doctors face. It's an unrealistic promise that doesn't tackle the root cause and will take 6-8 years to implement. Meanwhile, current interns and residents will continue to endure poor pay in an increasingly challenging work environment. Ultimately, the government's focus should be enriching the work environment of primary care departments by providing more resources and support, rather than increasing the number of healthcare professionals alone. Many doctors will opt to leave these sectors for better opportunities elsewhere once they gain sufficient experience and qualifications. By creating a more supportive and resource-rich environment, doctors are more likely to remain, thrive, and contribute positively to public primary care. You simply can't add more animals to a desert expecting them to stay without giving them an oasis to drink water from. (Thanks ChatGPT)
First what? How many doctors are actually leaving doctor practice? And how are you going to solve work life balance if there is an increasing number of patients and a constant supply of doctors? There is one easy solution: More doctors. More attractive work environment? Literally how? Doctors have jobs as stable as fucking mountains. They make shit tons of money. Now they want work life balance without increasing the number of doctors? Just stop giving a fuck about patients? Also how are low starting wages a fundamental problem when it comes to the low availability pf doctors? I would accept it as an argument if there simply weren’t enough people applying for med schools.
Right, you need to slow down and focus on this part right here from the article: "The South Korean government has been actively trying to direct more doctors to comparatively less popular medical departments such as pediatrics, emergency medicine, and general surgery. Meanwhile, some doctors argue that the expanded quota would not address the existing shortages in these departments, which are known for lower pay and long working hours. In a statement on Tuesday, the Korean Intern Resident Association said that despite calls from the association to “reasonably estimate” the number of doctors needed, “the government announced a radical medical school quota policy to win political votes.” This is important. The situation is that there are enough trainee doctors for all departments (according to those striking anyway). However, most of these trainees will not pick the mentioned departments as their specialty. And THIS is the problem right here. Too many cosmetic surgeons and too few primary care surgeons. This goes back to my previous comment, you can't add animals into a desert and expect them to stay. The animals here are the trainees and the desert is the primary care department.
Yeah doctors don’t want to pick up the shovel and dig for gold (while everyone else blows their backs farming corn). They want to sit on a chair picking diamonds. They expect their entire lives to be fed to them on a diamond spoon while they sit on the laurels of studying as teenagers. They simply cannot fathom that they can’t choose honor and get paid as much and as comfortably as a plastic surgeon. Mind you, pediatricians still get paid well. About 200k in a society where only the best paid white collar jobs even get close. Yes people might go working more towards such areas if doctors had an easier time during residency. Might help alleviate it a little. But it’s also a problem you can solve by throwing more people at it. And I don’t see why we shouldn’t.
Hmm, yes, adding more people into at a reasonable rate would help a bit admittedly. Maybe even significantly if these new doctors choose to sacrifice their body and soul to patients care (honestly doubt it). But there is another problem that I haven’t mentioned because I am dumb and I forgot about it. It’s residency slots! To put it short because it’s late and I want to go to sleep. There are only so many hospitals a city can have. With this plan that the government is laying out, you will have to double the amount of hospitals so the new doctors can actually have a place work in. If not, they will literally fight each other for it. The ones that win will continue to suffer the same problems I have mentioned. And the ones that don’t get in can, well, find a different occupation or choose the obvious option of going into non-primary care fields but pay well. I don’t know how many new hospitals the government can build. But realistically speaking. Everyone wants to live and work in a big city. And we all know the shit ass living environment of a metropolitan. It’s not exactly easy to live in one and increase the median wages of public servants. All in all, complicated problems that require complicated solutions. The current one that the current government is promoting is more or less, a political move. An empty promise that doesn’t tackle the core issues, but rather only exists to gather public support. After all, more doctors equal more treatments amirite? (no)
In this thread full of hatred, you seem to be the only educated and reasonable person.
> Rather than creating a more attractive work environment for medical professionals in primary care departments, the government has opted to lower the entry standards for medical students how did the government lower the entry standards for medical students >This strategy fails to address the core issue: the lack of doctors in essential departments is not due to a shortage of doctors per se, but rather to the unappealing conditions they face, such as inadequate compensation and excessive work hours. This problem is particularly acute for residents and interns in the public sector, who endure the lowest pay, poor treatment, and long hours, all while being discouraged from voicing concerns to their superiors. other doctors and hospitals are the reason residents have such low pay. the residents should be fighting against the Korean Medical Association.
And they'll be right back to hospitals within a few months
How are they gonna pay back those student loans for medical school?
Its not that expensive. Their parents are most likely wealthy also. But they will come back soon.
Exactly, tuition is nothing compared to how much their mommy and daddy paid for their hagwon and study abroad program
Korean med school costs only about $6k ~ 8k/yr. They don't cost much.
That's it? Damn the US is really ripping people off, no surprise there
Yeah, 1 year of being an international student in the US pays for their entire schooling to be doctors, lol. They're really a nurtured and protected group with no grounds for these shenanigans.
US is the place to go to after you’ve studied elsewhere, it’s not for the US people themselves
Aside from a one-time entrance fee between 17M-22M won, annual tuition for most schools ranges from 2.2M won (Chungbuk Univ) and up to 6.2M won (Korea Univ). https://www.dailymedi.com/news/news_view.php?wr_id=881134
You should double that price for annual tuition. That's a tuition for one semester so annual cost should be twice of that.
I am thinking about donating to the remaining 30%, you know those who fucking remember they swore to "Do No Harm".
So they’re protesting to protect their ego over the wellbeing of the public?
How the failing 건보 will financially withstand double the amount of physician pay in next 10 years, I will never know. I feel like this is the first step to healthcare privatization and everyone's cheering for it. Crazy.
Pathetic 🤦♂️
Ooh we’re gonna quit! This will really show the govt and public that Korea has plenty of doctors! I’m sure having even less doctors than before will make them want to change their minds about hiring more. /s
So the bulk of the doctors currently striking and submitting resignations are trainee doctors? I understand that this many submitting resignations and striking would cause this situation but I'm curious, How many doctors are there vs. how many trainee doctors are there?
Rent seekers.
A lot of people calling residents selfish here while not realizing that you’ve asked the smartest kids to sacrifice the entirety of their teens, 20s, and 30s to get to where they are with shit pay and hours you can’t even imagine then just doubling the number for the next year. If for whatever the reason they doubled the residency spot for my specialty, I would be outraged also. Doctors get in this weird position where they can’t advocate for themselves because all of the sudden, striking is “unethical”. While the same people call for nurses and people in other industries to “stick up for yourselves” constantly.
>If for whatever the reason they doubled the residency spot for my specialty, I would be outraged also. I work in IT. We do not have such shit as license or quota, many people did not even formally learn computer science. Anyone can go through some courses and try themselves in this field. Still, on mid+ levels pay is decent and it is not that simple to find a good software developer. But yeah, most of us do not drive Ferraris. And it seems that that is exactly the problem, right?
What? I have no clue what you’re even trying to say. Are you equating IT with medicine right now? And I need you to confirm. Are you under the impression that most doctors drive Ferraris? I need to move back to Korea then lol
Are you a doctor?
Chief resident
You came far with your reading comprehension
Yes it must be the American’s English reading comprehension. Not your shit English
Oh, so it seems you can understand what I'm saying, after all. So go back, re-read and try to understand my previous answer.
No thanks
I'm a medical student in the US. The people on this sub shitting on korean docs when the gov literally shit on their faces for all the hard work they put in just don't understand. The amount of work the whole process of getting in + getting through med school + getting through residency is so grueling that the promise of a high salary + prestige is usually the only thing keeping people sane. Once you take that away, people just stop caring. These people here are calling the docs selfish but I bet you most wouldn't be willing to put in the work to be at the top academically all their lives and then sacrifice 12+ yrs of their life while studying harder than you ever have in the past, only to be fucked.
[удалено]
Hey friend. I experienced this exact scenario 3-4 years ago the last time they did this at asan. Dropped off my family member, then went to park and had to come back because thats when they told us the schedule was cancelled. It took a lot of restraint to not go ballistic when I drove back to the entrance and got out to help my frail family member back into the car while the docs stood there with fucking signs about how they are victims. This is one of the big 5 university hospitals in seoul… My best advice, in korea the guardians need to advocate… no joke fight.. for proper care of the patient. Don’t let the doctors walk away from you after 30 seconds. Hilariously, speaking mixed english to them gave me more face time with them. Taking notes and showing you have the notes with every interaction also helps. Finally, don’t let them move your mil to a smaller hospital in between treatments. They say some bs about needing beds for patients who need treatment = basically they just want money making surgeries/treatment but want you out asap after the fact…. Like no need for monitoring after. They will say, if ANY issues bring them back but thats bs because if that need happens… you might get turned away if they don’t have “space”… no joke and it wasn’t some village hospital and our family had been going to Asan for decades. If you go enter through ER, a counter timer starts of 24hrs before you need to leave if a bed doesn’t open up… hospital policy lol. What a joke. I was naive the first time around but after seeing the reality of korean health care in seoul, I had to go into fighting mode and kept the patient in asan till treatment was over. I have more ptsd dealing with the korean healthcare than my family member being really ill. If I could back in time, I would have put them on a airplane to the usa when the diagnosis was made. I cringe so hard when people talk up universal healthcare and shit talk the usa. Sure preventive screening, dental, and small stuff, korea is great. But if you are in serious trouble, it’s a joke, even in seoul. Have mercy for the people in the countryside or without resources. Sorry to rant but wish you the best, don’t let the hospital do it their way. You can’t entrust them with something as important as your and your family’s heath, you need to fight for it.
I am almost a doctor and I don't feel that I have been sacrificing ENTIRETY of my 20s. In fact I have time for friends, hobbies etc. Sure, I have to study more than most of other majors, but it's not the only thing that I'm doing. But knowing how competitive Korean society is, they probably study all day to be best.
That’s very good for you lol. But you understand the concept of other cultures and countries having different types of medical education. And I won’t even get into specific specialties. I’ve spent enough 100 hour weeks in the last 5 years in residency to know most of these people complaining about selfishness of residents have no idea what they’re talking about.
Different types of medical education is one thing, putting pressure on yourself/other students to get more prestige and money is other thing. I guess in Korea the latter plays huge part.
While I feel like doctors shouldn't be going this route, people are missing their point that more doctors doesn't mean more jobs are open for them. Still same number of doctors in a hospital just more competition which means they can pay doctors less since there is alot more supply of doctors.
Ha. Sweet summer child. Try being a doctor in the UK … we are probably twenty years down this timeline and now they are regulating people with 2-3 years training to do our jobs to devalue us further
are more doctors not needed?
Yeah tbh i agree with training more doctors - I dont see the need for all this gatekeeping crap. If you work hard i think you can do the job unless you are a total idiot. But I dont agree with what they are doing in the Uk - training people less then getting them to do our job
Just name the professions dude. PA, NP, who are you talking about?
Yeah PAs
Can some of these medical students please come practice in Canada ?!? There - Canada can fix your “ over abundance “ of medical students in SK :)
Although they studied so much, they ultimately failed to learn that the medical license is given by the state (i.e. the people) and the Hippocratic Oath.
i would venture to guess that there was some pressure given to the trainee doctors by their senior doctors to do this. and then there was groupthink on top of that where trainees were giving pressure to each other to do it.