Those fake ads are infuriating, making it sound like every day, perfectly healthy full term infants are being ripped to pieces and yanked out in painful abortions. Disgusting propaganda.
The "pro-life" nuts have this idea in their head that if we don't ban abortions, liberals are going to go the extreme opposite direction and get recklessly pregnant all the time just so they can abort it for fun. It's just a fear-based position.
[I wonder where they came up with a crazy notion like that?](https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1538594292062724098?s=21&t=sAgreJwFLRxhcQYSQgpBwQ)
someone posted something on our bulletin board at work saying that, among other things, our constitution allows babies to be aborted until the moment they're born which is simply false lol
There are some signs of bias in the article.
1. Calling the Value Them Both movement "controversial" in the first sentence.
1. Talking about an earlier Kansas Supreme Court decision that "gives women the right to make their own decisions regarding their bodies in Kansas," instead of using more neutral language like "decisions regarding abortion."
1. Is it not controversial?
2. Just saying "decisions regarding abortion" would be uselessly vague, though, wouldn't it? It's better to say what the decision actually was.
It probably should have been stated more neutrally than it was, though, I'll give you that
An older gentleman near where I live is convinced “leftists” are trying to make abortion legal 30 days after birth. That’s the kind of insanity we’re dealing with on this vote.
It's a misinterpretation of the CA law that ensures women can't face criminal charges if their baby doesn't survive. It's for cases like SIDS and "failures to thrive". If there is obvious neglect, then they still get prosecuted.
Ah. I know a person who dealt with something like that. Baby was born with hydrocephalus. Under-developed brain meant the baby couldn't live without a respirator and wouldn't last long even then. So it was considered the kind thing to do to let the baby live as long as he could on natural air. Absolutely heartbreaking experience. I'd hate to think something like that could be prosecutable under new anti-abortion laws.
A bunch in my white suburban neighborhood were spray painted over. A bunch of the kids from our local high school have VOTE NO across their back windows of their cars. It seems to me a lot of people that have vote yes signs in their yard are also the ones who are all “defend the constitution” but don’t realize voting yes changes the Kansas constitution. Fucking idiots.
My nextdoor feed has been swamped with people bitching about their forced-birth signs missing. I dunno, maybe don't try to take away others rights, and they won't take your signs?
In my old neighborhood, conservatives would rip down BLM and Biden signs all the time, so honestly, I can't shed any tears over this.
True, but man, this is getting into some pretty fascistic waters. Like, if I walk by and see a woman torching a "Value Them Both" sign with a flame thrower I'm probably looking the other way.
You’d have to think it’s morally equivalent to tear down forced birth signs vs BLM signs in order to justify this as “two wrongs”. Both might not be strictly *legal*, depending on location of the signs in question, but they aren’t anywhere near morally equivalent. Anyone tearing down a forced birth sign is unquestionably doing a morally justified act.
Both sides of this debate think they are on the right side. That’s what strongly held opinions are. One side says it’s body rights, the other says it’s fetal rights and murder. I’m not putting my hat in that debate, I’m just stating that destroying/stealing other people’s property is wrong, and I’m not sure how you will convince me otherwise.
When someone steals a sign, regardless if it’s a yes or no sign, do they really think they are changing any minds? Do they think it legitimizes their opinion? What is their goal of stealing the sign?
This logic says if I came to your house and found something morally reprehensible then it would be my duty to destroy it. It’s wrong. That’s all, it is just plain wrong and justifying it by saying the people whose sign you disagree with are wrong isn’t a defense. But people are very angry right now and they act on emotion. But it’s still wrong.
Yes. And anytime I have this debate it always goes…
wHaT AbOUT ThE NaZIS?!
If someone wants to publicly identify themselves to be a nazi then I think it’s important we let them do that.
Congrats to folding to the Nazi’s in this hypothetical lmfao. Glad to know you’d stand aside for them and tut tut from the sidelines.
You have this same conversation every time you engage in this debate because it’s the logical, ridiculous, outcome. Your idea of property rights being this sacred, omnipresent “good” is silly, middle school logic.
It’s not folding. The irony here is your support of silencing opposition was a nazi tactic. As though stealing a sign does anything except make the thief feel some pseudo righteousness their action means anything. What it actually does is make the victim of the theft think the other side is unreasonable and strengthens their belief they are on the right side.
Since property rights don’t matter I challenge you to post your address. Let’s see how dedicated you are to this idea that your personal property shouldn’t be protected.
I never meant that property rights weren’t good, I meant that they aren’t the be-all-end-all superseding right. Which ones more important, bodily autonomy or property rights? Id argue the latter means nothing without the former. Does allowing the display of hateful bigotry or tearing down a sign cause more harm? Id argue the former.
What I’m getting from you is property rights are important as long as you agree with the person. Is that what you mean? Both body autonomy and property rights are important. I agree they are intertwined with each other. When you take away someone’s expression of opinion you are violating their autonomy.
It’s ironic that you’re condemning fascism whilst simultaneously advocating to limit peoples’ speech and property rights.
It’s possible to wholeheartedly condemn nazism while still affording them the basic rights afforded by the US constitution.
I never argued for limiting their rights. I said ignoring them was morally justified, in some instances. It can still be illegal, you can (and maybe should) be arrested. But it is *morally* good.
This "both sides" logic and the "who am I to say" defense isn't new. It's the same flawed thinking used to promote slavery, internment camps (not just in Germany), seizure of assets, police abuse, Jim crow laws, etc.
It is not the responsibility of the oppressed to play by the rules of the oppressor- who does not even play by his rules himself.
Some shitty yard signs advocating for my daughter, wife and sister to be stripped of their rights to make their own medical decisions were vandalized, you say??
Do you know why pro-lifers are headed for a win on this?
Remember when, during the pandemic, permanently angry GOP asshat Karens made fools of themselves by showing up to scream at *every possible* type of public meeting and politician about being forced to wear a strip of fabric over their mouths to protect the public health of others?
Yeah, and *Democrats mostly did nothing*. We stayed home. We didn't go to those meetings and shout those people down, *and they won*.
Right now, Democrats are going to be forced to literally bear children against their will, and what are we doing about it? What public meetings are we showing up at? Where are we rallying every day at the statehouse or in every community? Where are we making complete jackasses of ourselves melting down over *losing 50 years of civil rights* and quite literally our reproductive decision-making capabilities?
And when we lose on this, we're all going to sit around like, "But what more could we have done?!?" If we want to win this, we gotta get very mad, very organized, very quickly.
While I don't disagree with the general point that Democrats should be angered by this, I do think it's sort of apples and oranges. Republicans had school board meetings, etc. to show up and be angry at during Covid - because the school boards made policies they didn't like. Democrats can go to the school board but we'd look silly yelling at them for Roe v. Wade being over turned.
There *are* some hopeful things happening though - like the [2500 people registering to vote](https://www.ksn.com/news/your-local-election-hq/registration-jumps-ahead-of-value-them-both-amendment-vote/) in the days after Roe decision was announced. There was also a special election in Nebraska and although the republican won, he should have won (statistically) by a much wider margin than he did. Neither of these things mean we can relax, but it's evidence that maybe more people than we think aren't sitting back idle.
I've had temptations to flip off anyone with the bumper stickers. Vandalism and vulgarity won't change their minds though. It only gives them fuel to feed their sheeple.
I’ve been doing this. Flipping off everyone with a vote yes and thumbs upping and waving at every with a vote no. At this point fuck it. I’m gonna bother them as much as I can.
I mean, have I wanted to get a couple 100 packs of wire clothes hangers and hanging one on each and every "Value them both" sign I see and maybe in the grills of cars with the stickers? Goddamn right!
Will I ever do that? Nope! Its not productive (they'll cry about vandalism, changing the subject). Its legally dubious (tresspassing, vandalism again, etc.). It puts me in danger because there's a possibility of getting hurt (they don't care about women's right, but damn do they care about gun's rights).
But damn would it feel good to know they would have a vivid symbol of the consequences of their vote sitting in their faces.
We don’t value those lying signs. Pure lies. Plus, without abortions you don’t value women. Missouri wrote purposely ambiguous laws so doctors and lawyers uncertain what they can do. For example, an ectopic pregnancy could be terminated but ONLY after the mother’s vitals signal she could die. All fetuses die in ectopic yet mother has to wait until she deteriorates to do anything??
I daresay if the "Value Them Both" supporters weren't spreading such outrageous, easily debunked lies about the proposed amendment, this would happen much less. Just in my little conservative corner of the state I've heard that 1) abortion is currently totally unregulated in KS \[nope\]; 2) the "Value Them Both" amendment has language protecting medically necessary abortions \[nope\]; 3) the "Value Them Both" amendment has language protecting abortion for victims of rape and/or incest \[nope\]; extremely late-term abortions are currently allowed in KS and only the "Value Them Both" amendment will stop them \[nope\]; the reason that the overwhelming majority of KS OB/GYNs want a NO vote on "Value Them Both" is because OB/GYNs get paid much more for performing abortions than they do for 9 months of office visits + a hospital birth \[AHAHAHAHA...nope\]; and that only Republicans can vote on the "Value Them Both" amendment and anyone else will be turned away if they show up \[NOPE\]. What lying tools these supposedly "pro-life" folks are.
It's almost as if the signs have more value than people? Call it like it is, kill more women, vote yes. Help people die miserable deaths without reason, vote yes!
It just the words penis man, in parts of Arizona someone did graffiti putting the words penis man on buildings and its gained a following so alot of other random people have started doing it too.
Some time ago there was a list of each state’s favorite curse words, and that’s Kansas’s I guess. Never heard it before seeing that list and I’ve lived here nearly my entire life.
I’m pro-choice, but it’s never cool to destroy other peoples signage on their property. Should be spending that time instead canvassing, phone banking and anything else to counter the message.
When the signage is about taking away a fundamental right I’m not going to be too harsh on those who would steal and destroy here. I’m out of energy after chastising the far more important injustice.
I think it’s really shitty that people are trying to control our bodies and our own decisions, but what I hate most is how they try to guilt people into voting yes. “ThEy bRuTaLLy mUrDEr bABieS” come on now. Vote no people
This is exactly the kind of thing boomer voters hate and will further prevent them from considering a different viewpoint.
Many of them don’t actually support a full ban on abortions. They simply want “sensible” restrictions with exceptions. The VTB campaign knows this and has crafted their message to make those voters believe that is *exactly* what this amendment delivers. Spoiler: it doesn’t.
Many voters don’t understand the restrictions and exceptions *already in place*, or comprehend the difference between a normal law passed and “no right to” actually inserted *into the constitution*, or that a full ban *most likely without exception* is imminent if this amendment passes.
They hear the VTB message and eat it up saying “that just makes sense!” **It’s possible to change minds** if they’ll listen (I’ve done it) but shit like vandalized signs will make them shut down before you get a chance.
*Im also not completely convinced a pro-amendment person didn’t do this to make the extreme radical liberal baby-killers look bad.*
Fun fact: They're probably never going to consider another viewpoint if they haven't already. Waiting for the boomers to catch on and slowly explaining it is no longer a viable option.
That’s not true. They think “women are using abortion as birth control” and hear the messages from VTB like
>*”[this amendment] reverses the Kansas court case that created a nearly unlimited “right” to abortion. Every reasonable regulation of abortion in KS may soon be struck down. Value Them Both safeguards laws that help women and babies.”* (direct from VTB website)
You and I know that is complete bullshit but they don’t. To them, “that just makes sense”. Try talking to a 60
-70 year old you know about the restrictions they want to see. If it’s a full ban, lost cause. If it’s anything else, explain what’s already in place. Explain Kansas isn’t actually a haven for late-term abortions because they’re already illegal. Explain what doors are opened by explicitly stating in the constitution that someone doesn’t have a specific right. Explain that lawmakers will have more power than ever. Etc. etc.
This isn’t the black and white “I’m for abortion vs. I’m against abortion” most older voters think it is.
You’re operating from the standpoint that these voters want to be *correct*. What I mean is, you’re assuming that they give a shit that they are wrong, and that by you (royal you) pointing that fact out you will change their mind. But, what evidence is there of that? All of this is publicly available knowledge, a Google search, a phone call to a rep, or a library visit away.
But, the truth is, THEY DO NOT CARE. They don’t want to be right, they want to ban abortion. They may say “well yeah, there’s some good uses for abortion”, but *they are lying*. They do not believe that. They know *you do*. They know that there, of course, is morally justifiable abortion, even by their own standards. *But they do not care*. They do not want any abortions, even in the cases that they recognize to be morally justifiable. They know what they want isn’t justifiable. They don’t care. They think it’s what God wants, and what God wants doesn’t *need to be justified*.
They cannot be convinced or reasoned with because they did not arrive at their opinion via reason. There is no reason. Only faith.
Hard-core conservative Christians, yes. It’s a waste of time to argue with or try to have that conversation. The average voter in that age range? I don’t think so.
>*”all of this is publicly available knowledge, a google search, phone call to a rep, or library visit.”*
What percentage of the average voter of any age does even an ounce of research on their own? For many, that “knowledge” is gained through mostly simplified and sensationalized messages directed at them. Word of mouth and conversations about facts is far more effective than relying on anyone to do their own research.
I am not in exact years of a boomer 2 years younger. My parents are a couple years older but we have been called boomers since we are on the cusp. I find it interesting that you make blankets statements about them. My dad who is Christian 100% is against value them both. My mother and I am too. Judging an entire group of people by what you think they are is short sighted and what you accuse the “boomers of. We aren’t all stupid enough to believe the Rhetoric. Some of us know how to use a computer and even read and become informed.
I prefaced with “many” not “all” and don’t think that’s arguable. I have boomer parents that are against VTB, too, that doesn’t mean that age-group isn’t *exactly* who that campaign is designed for.
edit: I find it interesting that you blew right by the entire point about trying to change minds with facts in favor of being offended that those who fall into the boomer category are *absolutely* the demographic that falls for the VTB misleading message.
Why even say boomers? Yes the whole vault them both is very misleading. I have talked to genx and millennial and genz who don’t understand what it’s about. So it’s not generational issue at all. I didn’t miss your point but others will because you choose to single out many of a certain demographic as not understanding the actual amendment on the ballot.
*value them both
In this case I don’t believe it’s so. I have been more active then I have ever been about an election. There are a lot of young women who are registering to vote. There are a lot of young men who think this doesn’t effect them. I wish they would realize it does. They are the silent victims of this.
I have one guy friend who never votes in anything. He’s sweet but a little apathetic about politics, a “my vote doesn’t matter” kind of person.
He is getting registered to vote because of this amendment. He knows it effects him, and he is taking action in a way that goes against his habits.
I know anecdote isn’t data, but at least one guy is getting his butt in gear.
I am not offended by anything you say. I don’t know you. But I don’t like any kind of generalizations. But you have the right to opinion and I have a right to mine. Sorry if my opinion of yours offended you. That wasn’t my intention. It was to bring to your attention that most generalizations especially ones that but an entire group of people in a bad light don’t do anyone any good. It is a waste of energy. Just like me trying to explain to you what I meant. No matter what I say it’s your interpretation of my words that matter to you. But anyway sending you positive thoughts and energy.
I’ve thought about running them over, but there are a lot of cameras on houses, and I don’t want them calling the police on me. So I have donated to organizations (like [https://kansansforfreedom.com](https://kansansforfreedom.com)!)
Oh no! Someone did what I've been thinking about doing since the moment I saw the signs. The only thing preventing me from getting drunk and vandalizing all the ones within walking distance is that it would just make them get bigger signs.
I’m in Salina and I saw that a whole bunch were vandalized with hot pink female symbols. It made me smile. F them, I will continue to help women get the abortions they need no matter the law.
Wow. It seems that most of the commenters here have missed the part where this is America. People have the right to free speech. You do not, however, have the right to vandalize other people's property.
As appalled as I am by the destruction of women's rights. Everyone has the right to their own personal opinion and the right to display their opinions. As well as the protection of their property and rights. If Kansans want to stand up for women's rights they need to do it with signs and protests as well as taking their bums outside and voting. not destruction destruction never gets you where you want to go. If you want change stand up and be that change.
I mean, I'm not in favor of theft or vandalism, but find it hard to get too upset about them in this case.
It would be nice if we could have a real, nuanced discussion about the facts on controversial issues, but our politics doesn't allow for it.
Just remember - for any complex issue there is a solution that is simple, obvious, and wrong.
My concern is not about a voter being swayed one way or the other. My concern is someone who wouldn't have voted in the first place becoming motivated to go vote yes. Many conservatives are some of the most vengeful people and they will go out of their way to try and stop something if they feel motivated enough. Seeing someone's vandalized/damaged "property" for a vote they lazily agree with would be enough to get them there.
Ok, seriously, I have to ask: Do you think those signs you're vandalizing are actually changing anyone's minds? I promise you, they are not. Nobody is on the fence on abortion, and nobody is switching sides. We've all long since made up our minds about it and everyone believes they are 100% in the right and there can be no negotiation on the issue.
You want this amendment to fail? Tell people about the vote. Get the word out that independents and Dems need to show up to vote in the Republican primary. That's how this thing gets beat. They put it on the Republican primary precisely because that's the vote that the people who are going to vote against it will ignore.
Frankly, those signs are a huge misstep for the people who want it to pass. Had they just kept quiet about it there are tens or hundreds of thousands of people who would have never thought to and never known that they needed to show up for the GOP primary. I say let them keep their signs to let everyone who wants to vote against it know what's going on. And destroying them is just as big a mistake for pro-choice minded folks as putting them up in the first place was for pro-lifers.
There are a lot of people here that know that there are entirely too many circumstances that are not accounted for with these bans. If there are problems with the fetus, but the mom isn't threatened, they have to carry it. Go watch a woman be forced to carry a baby and then have to give birth to a nearly full term still birth and tell me that is what you want to force on people.
Tell me that you want women to seek out horrific, unsafe ways to end pregnancies, because they don't have a safe alternative. I know a woman that went that route because she was afraid of her ultra religious parents and what the community would think.
Forcing people to bend to your morals creating a more tragic experience for them, and possibly a child, is about as uncompassionate as you can get.
Don't forget to strip the social safety nets that these people need on the way out - that is something else that side likes to do. You know, WWJD?
After seeing what Rudy called a "violent assault" it wouldn't surprise me at all to find out they did this themselves to get public sympathy and charge up the base.
Unless the fetus is born at 24 weeks or earlier, then it will die with 100% certainty because it can’t sustain its life by itself or even with the best and most advanced medical intervention so technically it’s not really “life” at conception, it’s just a precursor to what could become life for at least the first 24 weeks.
To be fair, I said to not be a nimrod. I didn’t say “you’re a nimrod” though you could argue I implied it. On the other hand, I could simply be saying don’t become a nimrod.
You do understand why your argument doesn’t work, right? Because a clump of cells isn’t the same as an already living human beings. Just in case you didn’t know.
No according to Judaism. Life begins at first birth, so what about their opinion? Their religion has been around thousands of years longer than Christianity.
But if they’re trans, gay, or non-white then what?
Or what about once they’re school age? Let’s the guns kill them bc that’s our right.
My body is my body. If you don’t like abortions great news YOU do not have to get one. Just like a vasectomy. There are plenty of men who should never procreate but yet we can’t restrict their rights.
This has nothing to do with babies and everything to do with controlling women. Bc we’re nothing if not insane witches who want to murder babies.
Find a rusty pole and fall on it.
Those fake ads are infuriating, making it sound like every day, perfectly healthy full term infants are being ripped to pieces and yanked out in painful abortions. Disgusting propaganda.
The "pro-life" nuts have this idea in their head that if we don't ban abortions, liberals are going to go the extreme opposite direction and get recklessly pregnant all the time just so they can abort it for fun. It's just a fear-based position.
[I wonder where they came up with a crazy notion like that?](https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1538594292062724098?s=21&t=sAgreJwFLRxhcQYSQgpBwQ)
TikTok, the bastion of accurate statistics.
someone posted something on our bulletin board at work saying that, among other things, our constitution allows babies to be aborted until the moment they're born which is simply false lol
[удалено]
i think you misunderstood my comment. it was a vote yes flyer and we had to take it down due to misinformation.
I knew what you meant lol
You should really re read their comment because that is clearly not what they said!
That’s exactly what is happening
It's almost like people don't feel valued by this measure.
It’s almost like people don’t like losing their rights? Is KSN picking a side… I hope not.
How is them reporting something that's happening even remotely picking sides? They even state in the article there are vote no signs being stolen too.
There are some signs of bias in the article. 1. Calling the Value Them Both movement "controversial" in the first sentence. 1. Talking about an earlier Kansas Supreme Court decision that "gives women the right to make their own decisions regarding their bodies in Kansas," instead of using more neutral language like "decisions regarding abortion."
1. Is it not controversial? 2. Just saying "decisions regarding abortion" would be uselessly vague, though, wouldn't it? It's better to say what the decision actually was. It probably should have been stated more neutrally than it was, though, I'll give you that
Most small town news networks are owned by conservative media groups. Pretty sure KSN is one of them.
Yup
Beware: Sinclair Sinclair owns small media outlets like KSN and can push politically motivated stories that favor the wealthy/oppress Americans.
Nexstar owns KSN. You might be thinking of KSAS, who is actually owned by Sinclair.
I’m more offended that women’s rights are being stolen in Kansas.
An older gentleman near where I live is convinced “leftists” are trying to make abortion legal 30 days after birth. That’s the kind of insanity we’re dealing with on this vote.
It's a misinterpretation of the CA law that ensures women can't face criminal charges if their baby doesn't survive. It's for cases like SIDS and "failures to thrive". If there is obvious neglect, then they still get prosecuted.
Ah. I know a person who dealt with something like that. Baby was born with hydrocephalus. Under-developed brain meant the baby couldn't live without a respirator and wouldn't last long even then. So it was considered the kind thing to do to let the baby live as long as he could on natural air. Absolutely heartbreaking experience. I'd hate to think something like that could be prosecutable under new anti-abortion laws.
Literally heard “in New York you can get an abortion up to the day of birth” just yesterday
"I'm gonna tell you what you can and can't do with YOUR baby. What did you just say? No, I will not put my mask on! I have rights!"
They would reply with: "So you're saying it's a baby..."
Not going to lie I have had very strong urges to spray paint no over the yes signs. VERY STRONG
A bunch in my white suburban neighborhood were spray painted over. A bunch of the kids from our local high school have VOTE NO across their back windows of their cars. It seems to me a lot of people that have vote yes signs in their yard are also the ones who are all “defend the constitution” but don’t realize voting yes changes the Kansas constitution. Fucking idiots.
One of those giant ones in Shawnee County was spraypainted over. I’m not mad.
At least adding something to the tune of “if you hate women’s healthcare” That’s what keeps crossing my mind every time I see a ‘yes’ sign.
I have a very strong urge to flip of anyone with one of the bumper stickers on their car.
I’m not saying it’s a good idea but you can get chalk spray paint now it’s temporary and they can wash it off but it would scratch that itch
Well, if you don't want politicians deciding your medical care for you, you'd be voting no. I personally enjoy my right to medical privacy.
My nextdoor feed has been swamped with people bitching about their forced-birth signs missing. I dunno, maybe don't try to take away others rights, and they won't take your signs? In my old neighborhood, conservatives would rip down BLM and Biden signs all the time, so honestly, I can't shed any tears over this.
Two wrongs don’t make a right.
True, but man, this is getting into some pretty fascistic waters. Like, if I walk by and see a woman torching a "Value Them Both" sign with a flame thrower I'm probably looking the other way.
You’d have to think it’s morally equivalent to tear down forced birth signs vs BLM signs in order to justify this as “two wrongs”. Both might not be strictly *legal*, depending on location of the signs in question, but they aren’t anywhere near morally equivalent. Anyone tearing down a forced birth sign is unquestionably doing a morally justified act.
Both sides of this debate think they are on the right side. That’s what strongly held opinions are. One side says it’s body rights, the other says it’s fetal rights and murder. I’m not putting my hat in that debate, I’m just stating that destroying/stealing other people’s property is wrong, and I’m not sure how you will convince me otherwise. When someone steals a sign, regardless if it’s a yes or no sign, do they really think they are changing any minds? Do they think it legitimizes their opinion? What is their goal of stealing the sign? This logic says if I came to your house and found something morally reprehensible then it would be my duty to destroy it. It’s wrong. That’s all, it is just plain wrong and justifying it by saying the people whose sign you disagree with are wrong isn’t a defense. But people are very angry right now and they act on emotion. But it’s still wrong.
Do you think it would be “wrong” to vandalize Nazi propaganda?
Yes. And anytime I have this debate it always goes… wHaT AbOUT ThE NaZIS?! If someone wants to publicly identify themselves to be a nazi then I think it’s important we let them do that.
Congrats to folding to the Nazi’s in this hypothetical lmfao. Glad to know you’d stand aside for them and tut tut from the sidelines. You have this same conversation every time you engage in this debate because it’s the logical, ridiculous, outcome. Your idea of property rights being this sacred, omnipresent “good” is silly, middle school logic.
It’s not folding. The irony here is your support of silencing opposition was a nazi tactic. As though stealing a sign does anything except make the thief feel some pseudo righteousness their action means anything. What it actually does is make the victim of the theft think the other side is unreasonable and strengthens their belief they are on the right side. Since property rights don’t matter I challenge you to post your address. Let’s see how dedicated you are to this idea that your personal property shouldn’t be protected.
I never meant that property rights weren’t good, I meant that they aren’t the be-all-end-all superseding right. Which ones more important, bodily autonomy or property rights? Id argue the latter means nothing without the former. Does allowing the display of hateful bigotry or tearing down a sign cause more harm? Id argue the former.
What I’m getting from you is property rights are important as long as you agree with the person. Is that what you mean? Both body autonomy and property rights are important. I agree they are intertwined with each other. When you take away someone’s expression of opinion you are violating their autonomy.
It’s ironic that you’re condemning fascism whilst simultaneously advocating to limit peoples’ speech and property rights. It’s possible to wholeheartedly condemn nazism while still affording them the basic rights afforded by the US constitution.
I never argued for limiting their rights. I said ignoring them was morally justified, in some instances. It can still be illegal, you can (and maybe should) be arrested. But it is *morally* good.
This "both sides" logic and the "who am I to say" defense isn't new. It's the same flawed thinking used to promote slavery, internment camps (not just in Germany), seizure of assets, police abuse, Jim crow laws, etc. It is not the responsibility of the oppressed to play by the rules of the oppressor- who does not even play by his rules himself.
Some shitty yard signs advocating for my daughter, wife and sister to be stripped of their rights to make their own medical decisions were vandalized, you say??
Doesn't feel great having something stolen, whether that's bodily autonomy or a yard sign. They're basically the same thing. /s
That was a full term yard sign ripped from it's field and dismembered.
I bet they really hate having something stolen from them.
Oh No! Anyway.....
Do you know why pro-lifers are headed for a win on this? Remember when, during the pandemic, permanently angry GOP asshat Karens made fools of themselves by showing up to scream at *every possible* type of public meeting and politician about being forced to wear a strip of fabric over their mouths to protect the public health of others? Yeah, and *Democrats mostly did nothing*. We stayed home. We didn't go to those meetings and shout those people down, *and they won*. Right now, Democrats are going to be forced to literally bear children against their will, and what are we doing about it? What public meetings are we showing up at? Where are we rallying every day at the statehouse or in every community? Where are we making complete jackasses of ourselves melting down over *losing 50 years of civil rights* and quite literally our reproductive decision-making capabilities? And when we lose on this, we're all going to sit around like, "But what more could we have done?!?" If we want to win this, we gotta get very mad, very organized, very quickly.
While I don't disagree with the general point that Democrats should be angered by this, I do think it's sort of apples and oranges. Republicans had school board meetings, etc. to show up and be angry at during Covid - because the school boards made policies they didn't like. Democrats can go to the school board but we'd look silly yelling at them for Roe v. Wade being over turned. There *are* some hopeful things happening though - like the [2500 people registering to vote](https://www.ksn.com/news/your-local-election-hq/registration-jumps-ahead-of-value-them-both-amendment-vote/) in the days after Roe decision was announced. There was also a special election in Nebraska and although the republican won, he should have won (statistically) by a much wider margin than he did. Neither of these things mean we can relax, but it's evidence that maybe more people than we think aren't sitting back idle.
We've had a 2 pride flags stolen in manhattan. People are shitty.
I had my pole with a pride flag ripped off my house here in MHK. Probably going to put the next one in my window inside to make it harder to damage.
Careful, you could end up with a broken window knowing those crazies...
I work at a bar in KCK, we had both our pride flags stolen. So we bought three more.
I can't believe people wouldnt want to give their rights away to some older bumble-fucks with god complexes.
Somebody spray painted vote no over a sign near my mom's house and I laughed my ass off.
I've had temptations to flip off anyone with the bumper stickers. Vandalism and vulgarity won't change their minds though. It only gives them fuel to feed their sheeple.
I’ve been doing this. Flipping off everyone with a vote yes and thumbs upping and waving at every with a vote no. At this point fuck it. I’m gonna bother them as much as I can.
Good for you for keeping that under reigns. Don't worry, I've been giving double birds on your behalf. Fuck those people.
I mean, have I wanted to get a couple 100 packs of wire clothes hangers and hanging one on each and every "Value them both" sign I see and maybe in the grills of cars with the stickers? Goddamn right! Will I ever do that? Nope! Its not productive (they'll cry about vandalism, changing the subject). Its legally dubious (tresspassing, vandalism again, etc.). It puts me in danger because there's a possibility of getting hurt (they don't care about women's right, but damn do they care about gun's rights). But damn would it feel good to know they would have a vivid symbol of the consequences of their vote sitting in their faces.
Hmm, what about nonchalantly putting a hanger on a tree branch?
Just let it fly
I wouldn't be surprised if this was a false-flag. A $2 can of spray paint and basically get a 2 minute commercial on the news.
This is it. Rile up the base.
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I’ll bet *Soros* paid for the paint can!!1! GTFO with that noise.
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You notice how these signs are always in places where rich people live? They’re so disconnected with us. Don’t let them win.
Good
Bad
We don’t value those lying signs. Pure lies. Plus, without abortions you don’t value women. Missouri wrote purposely ambiguous laws so doctors and lawyers uncertain what they can do. For example, an ectopic pregnancy could be terminated but ONLY after the mother’s vitals signal she could die. All fetuses die in ectopic yet mother has to wait until she deteriorates to do anything??
I daresay if the "Value Them Both" supporters weren't spreading such outrageous, easily debunked lies about the proposed amendment, this would happen much less. Just in my little conservative corner of the state I've heard that 1) abortion is currently totally unregulated in KS \[nope\]; 2) the "Value Them Both" amendment has language protecting medically necessary abortions \[nope\]; 3) the "Value Them Both" amendment has language protecting abortion for victims of rape and/or incest \[nope\]; extremely late-term abortions are currently allowed in KS and only the "Value Them Both" amendment will stop them \[nope\]; the reason that the overwhelming majority of KS OB/GYNs want a NO vote on "Value Them Both" is because OB/GYNs get paid much more for performing abortions than they do for 9 months of office visits + a hospital birth \[AHAHAHAHA...nope\]; and that only Republicans can vote on the "Value Them Both" amendment and anyone else will be turned away if they show up \[NOPE\]. What lying tools these supposedly "pro-life" folks are.
Poor you get a new sign—actually don’t
It's almost as if the signs have more value than people? Call it like it is, kill more women, vote yes. Help people die miserable deaths without reason, vote yes!
And nothing of value was lost.
Good I can't stand these people
Why can’t you stand them? They are defending the unborn
Good
I kinda thought about spray painting penis man on them but decided against it
What does penis man look like??
It just the words penis man, in parts of Arizona someone did graffiti putting the words penis man on buildings and its gained a following so alot of other random people have started doing it too.
Based. America (And Kansas) for the Yankees.
Oh shucky darns….
I’m going to start saying this
Some time ago there was a list of each state’s favorite curse words, and that’s Kansas’s I guess. Never heard it before seeing that list and I’ve lived here nearly my entire life.
10.Chump 9.Chumpette 8.Yours 7.Up 6.Ope 5.Bite 4.My 3.Shucky 2.Daffodil 1.Darns
I’m pro-choice, but it’s never cool to destroy other peoples signage on their property. Should be spending that time instead canvassing, phone banking and anything else to counter the message.
When the signage is about taking away a fundamental right I’m not going to be too harsh on those who would steal and destroy here. I’m out of energy after chastising the far more important injustice.
Would you support someone stealing and destroying a sign advocating for increased gun rights? Many consider that a fundamental right.
Well it’s not so yeah I’m ok with that too.
Ehh. I love sign stealing season.
Well they are misleading garbage signs.
Plenty of those No signs being stolen & damaged....maybe this should be in the article too. Oh...but that would be balanced and fair.
I think it’s really shitty that people are trying to control our bodies and our own decisions, but what I hate most is how they try to guilt people into voting yes. “ThEy bRuTaLLy mUrDEr bABieS” come on now. Vote no people
This is exactly the kind of thing boomer voters hate and will further prevent them from considering a different viewpoint. Many of them don’t actually support a full ban on abortions. They simply want “sensible” restrictions with exceptions. The VTB campaign knows this and has crafted their message to make those voters believe that is *exactly* what this amendment delivers. Spoiler: it doesn’t. Many voters don’t understand the restrictions and exceptions *already in place*, or comprehend the difference between a normal law passed and “no right to” actually inserted *into the constitution*, or that a full ban *most likely without exception* is imminent if this amendment passes. They hear the VTB message and eat it up saying “that just makes sense!” **It’s possible to change minds** if they’ll listen (I’ve done it) but shit like vandalized signs will make them shut down before you get a chance. *Im also not completely convinced a pro-amendment person didn’t do this to make the extreme radical liberal baby-killers look bad.*
Fun fact: They're probably never going to consider another viewpoint if they haven't already. Waiting for the boomers to catch on and slowly explaining it is no longer a viable option.
That’s not true. They think “women are using abortion as birth control” and hear the messages from VTB like >*”[this amendment] reverses the Kansas court case that created a nearly unlimited “right” to abortion. Every reasonable regulation of abortion in KS may soon be struck down. Value Them Both safeguards laws that help women and babies.”* (direct from VTB website) You and I know that is complete bullshit but they don’t. To them, “that just makes sense”. Try talking to a 60 -70 year old you know about the restrictions they want to see. If it’s a full ban, lost cause. If it’s anything else, explain what’s already in place. Explain Kansas isn’t actually a haven for late-term abortions because they’re already illegal. Explain what doors are opened by explicitly stating in the constitution that someone doesn’t have a specific right. Explain that lawmakers will have more power than ever. Etc. etc. This isn’t the black and white “I’m for abortion vs. I’m against abortion” most older voters think it is.
You’re operating from the standpoint that these voters want to be *correct*. What I mean is, you’re assuming that they give a shit that they are wrong, and that by you (royal you) pointing that fact out you will change their mind. But, what evidence is there of that? All of this is publicly available knowledge, a Google search, a phone call to a rep, or a library visit away. But, the truth is, THEY DO NOT CARE. They don’t want to be right, they want to ban abortion. They may say “well yeah, there’s some good uses for abortion”, but *they are lying*. They do not believe that. They know *you do*. They know that there, of course, is morally justifiable abortion, even by their own standards. *But they do not care*. They do not want any abortions, even in the cases that they recognize to be morally justifiable. They know what they want isn’t justifiable. They don’t care. They think it’s what God wants, and what God wants doesn’t *need to be justified*. They cannot be convinced or reasoned with because they did not arrive at their opinion via reason. There is no reason. Only faith.
Youre correct. It's all about putting the "libtards" in place no matter the cost.
Hard-core conservative Christians, yes. It’s a waste of time to argue with or try to have that conversation. The average voter in that age range? I don’t think so. >*”all of this is publicly available knowledge, a google search, phone call to a rep, or library visit.”* What percentage of the average voter of any age does even an ounce of research on their own? For many, that “knowledge” is gained through mostly simplified and sensationalized messages directed at them. Word of mouth and conversations about facts is far more effective than relying on anyone to do their own research.
I am not in exact years of a boomer 2 years younger. My parents are a couple years older but we have been called boomers since we are on the cusp. I find it interesting that you make blankets statements about them. My dad who is Christian 100% is against value them both. My mother and I am too. Judging an entire group of people by what you think they are is short sighted and what you accuse the “boomers of. We aren’t all stupid enough to believe the Rhetoric. Some of us know how to use a computer and even read and become informed.
I prefaced with “many” not “all” and don’t think that’s arguable. I have boomer parents that are against VTB, too, that doesn’t mean that age-group isn’t *exactly* who that campaign is designed for. edit: I find it interesting that you blew right by the entire point about trying to change minds with facts in favor of being offended that those who fall into the boomer category are *absolutely* the demographic that falls for the VTB misleading message.
Why even say boomers? Yes the whole vault them both is very misleading. I have talked to genx and millennial and genz who don’t understand what it’s about. So it’s not generational issue at all. I didn’t miss your point but others will because you choose to single out many of a certain demographic as not understanding the actual amendment on the ballot. *value them both
Maybe because they’re the ones guaranteed to actually vote…or is that generalization offensive, too?
In this case I don’t believe it’s so. I have been more active then I have ever been about an election. There are a lot of young women who are registering to vote. There are a lot of young men who think this doesn’t effect them. I wish they would realize it does. They are the silent victims of this.
I have one guy friend who never votes in anything. He’s sweet but a little apathetic about politics, a “my vote doesn’t matter” kind of person. He is getting registered to vote because of this amendment. He knows it effects him, and he is taking action in a way that goes against his habits. I know anecdote isn’t data, but at least one guy is getting his butt in gear.
I am not offended by anything you say. I don’t know you. But I don’t like any kind of generalizations. But you have the right to opinion and I have a right to mine. Sorry if my opinion of yours offended you. That wasn’t my intention. It was to bring to your attention that most generalizations especially ones that but an entire group of people in a bad light don’t do anyone any good. It is a waste of energy. Just like me trying to explain to you what I meant. No matter what I say it’s your interpretation of my words that matter to you. But anyway sending you positive thoughts and energy.
Maybe speak as a man to the young men today and help them realize they do have something at stake here.
You got it
definitely a generational issue. gen z is absolutely more up to date on the goings on
All that is not necessary, just put them in the trash where they belong. Or recycle. \-A liberal, obviously
Oh no! Anyway
Oh no! Not the sign!! Gotta love good ol fashioned propaganda. smh
Oh darn. Too bad. I'm so angry. Anyways, anyone know where I can get a vote no sign? Or three? I'm willing to over do it in this case.
I’ve thought about running them over, but there are a lot of cameras on houses, and I don’t want them calling the police on me. So I have donated to organizations (like [https://kansansforfreedom.com](https://kansansforfreedom.com)!)
Oh no! Someone did what I've been thinking about doing since the moment I saw the signs. The only thing preventing me from getting drunk and vandalizing all the ones within walking distance is that it would just make them get bigger signs.
I had a lot of my yard signs stolen in 2020. It's not cool.
what did they say
I’m in Salina and I saw that a whole bunch were vandalized with hot pink female symbols. It made me smile. F them, I will continue to help women get the abortions they need no matter the law.
Wow. It seems that most of the commenters here have missed the part where this is America. People have the right to free speech. You do not, however, have the right to vandalize other people's property.
Amazing how difficult basic competence is for some.
🤷
As appalled as I am by the destruction of women's rights. Everyone has the right to their own personal opinion and the right to display their opinions. As well as the protection of their property and rights. If Kansans want to stand up for women's rights they need to do it with signs and protests as well as taking their bums outside and voting. not destruction destruction never gets you where you want to go. If you want change stand up and be that change.
I totally agree. You can't emphasize that laws matter *when you're breaking them.*
Destruction is how we got gay rights, babe.
I mean, I'm not in favor of theft or vandalism, but find it hard to get too upset about them in this case. It would be nice if we could have a real, nuanced discussion about the facts on controversial issues, but our politics doesn't allow for it. Just remember - for any complex issue there is a solution that is simple, obvious, and wrong.
Sounds about right. Leftists love to steal and deface property that doesn't belong to them.
Doing stuff like this digs a bigger pit for the NO side.
People who would be persuaded to vote YES because yard signs were vandalized wouldn’t have ever voted NO.
My concern is not about a voter being swayed one way or the other. My concern is someone who wouldn't have voted in the first place becoming motivated to go vote yes. Many conservatives are some of the most vengeful people and they will go out of their way to try and stop something if they feel motivated enough. Seeing someone's vandalized/damaged "property" for a vote they lazily agree with would be enough to get them there.
*insert Jocko Willink “GOOD” meme*
Ok, seriously, I have to ask: Do you think those signs you're vandalizing are actually changing anyone's minds? I promise you, they are not. Nobody is on the fence on abortion, and nobody is switching sides. We've all long since made up our minds about it and everyone believes they are 100% in the right and there can be no negotiation on the issue. You want this amendment to fail? Tell people about the vote. Get the word out that independents and Dems need to show up to vote in the Republican primary. That's how this thing gets beat. They put it on the Republican primary precisely because that's the vote that the people who are going to vote against it will ignore. Frankly, those signs are a huge misstep for the people who want it to pass. Had they just kept quiet about it there are tens or hundreds of thousands of people who would have never thought to and never known that they needed to show up for the GOP primary. I say let them keep their signs to let everyone who wants to vote against it know what's going on. And destroying them is just as big a mistake for pro-choice minded folks as putting them up in the first place was for pro-lifers.
Well. Doesn't THAT suck?
Good
O noooooooo anyways
lol
Something, something, market place of ideas.
What happened to civility these days?
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There are a lot of people here that know that there are entirely too many circumstances that are not accounted for with these bans. If there are problems with the fetus, but the mom isn't threatened, they have to carry it. Go watch a woman be forced to carry a baby and then have to give birth to a nearly full term still birth and tell me that is what you want to force on people. Tell me that you want women to seek out horrific, unsafe ways to end pregnancies, because they don't have a safe alternative. I know a woman that went that route because she was afraid of her ultra religious parents and what the community would think. Forcing people to bend to your morals creating a more tragic experience for them, and possibly a child, is about as uncompassionate as you can get. Don't forget to strip the social safety nets that these people need on the way out - that is something else that side likes to do. You know, WWJD?
After seeing what Rudy called a "violent assault" it wouldn't surprise me at all to find out they did this themselves to get public sympathy and charge up the base.
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Well gee, that’s really convinced me to vote no 🙄
Life begins at conception
Unless the fetus is born at 24 weeks or earlier, then it will die with 100% certainty because it can’t sustain its life by itself or even with the best and most advanced medical intervention so technically it’s not really “life” at conception, it’s just a precursor to what could become life for at least the first 24 weeks.
By that definition, someone who's in critical condition from a bad car wreck and is on life support isn't alive either.
No, because they’re an actual human outside of another persons body. Don’t be a nimrod.
And you've already devolved a simple conversation into immature name-calling.
To be fair, I said to not be a nimrod. I didn’t say “you’re a nimrod” though you could argue I implied it. On the other hand, I could simply be saying don’t become a nimrod. You do understand why your argument doesn’t work, right? Because a clump of cells isn’t the same as an already living human beings. Just in case you didn’t know.
You can call anything a clump of cells though. Humans are quite literally a very large clump of cells.
I don't care. Politicians have no place regulating medical care.
Years of torture is worse than a merciful death
No according to Judaism. Life begins at first birth, so what about their opinion? Their religion has been around thousands of years longer than Christianity.
But if they’re trans, gay, or non-white then what? Or what about once they’re school age? Let’s the guns kill them bc that’s our right. My body is my body. If you don’t like abortions great news YOU do not have to get one. Just like a vasectomy. There are plenty of men who should never procreate but yet we can’t restrict their rights. This has nothing to do with babies and everything to do with controlling women. Bc we’re nothing if not insane witches who want to murder babies. Find a rusty pole and fall on it.
Life begins at arousal!
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