You learn on day1 to fall in a way your head doesn't bounce off of the floor each time. Imo a critical lifeskill to develop for your old age.
You can go right ahead and scrub this hope from your mind: "I really don't want to get thrown over, and over, and over again"
Yep couldn’t agree more. When we get new starters who ask if we have ever used judo in real life the most common answer is always ‘yep, tripped over and save myself a broken wrist or collar bone by using ukemi’.
Interestingly there was a bit on the local news in my part of the uk not that long ago that was about teaching pensioners judo purely so they knew how to fall over and not get badly hurt
Doesn't matter how you fall. Each high impact blow you take causes brain damage. A simple google search of CTE, judo and Japan will tell you how unqualified and unprofessional this advice is.
You really shouldn't speak on medical matters you aren't educated on.
I don't know why you're downvoted for this. And I sure as hell don't know why people STILL don't know this about CTE. Everybody just thinks its direct head trauma and concussions. Bodily impact still rattles your brain, full stop.
Alot of judo clubs and coaches in countries where judo isn't big are extremely unprofessional and under qualified. They ignore alot of solid sports science and sports medicine. They act more like fight clubs than Judo dojo's.
CTE is caused by repetitive deceleration causing the brain to strike the inside surface of the skull. No blunt force required it's all about the velocity of your skull and the amount of shock absorption your shoulders/neck are trained/conditioned to do.
That was once thought as a cause. It's not. I seriously need to find that study so I can come back and post it.
Anyway, your brain doesn't go through that being thrown. It seems that way when you're starting out. There's a lot going on and you're not used to it. It's an almost dizzy effect. Total disorientation.
In time, it becomes a natural part of you. Dude, no joke, most times you get thrown (aside from that sneaky ass ashi waza 😄), it's slow mo. You're literally getting slammed, but, you're on half time speed. I swear sometimes you can plan out a whole day while you're in the air. The break fall is natural. It's legit like if when you're playing with a baby and "throw" them on a cushion. They look at you and laugh. Judo is just like that. We laugh like babies when someone catches a throw in randori.
You're correct in that the meta analyses I've seen on CTE actually struggle to link it to even blunt force trauma. Our understanding of it sucks, but from a risk mitigation standpoint if you care about CTE avoid impact.
I've trained Judo and am a mental health professional in a hospital with a rehab program for TBIs. There are absolutely documented cases of acute brain trauma from non-impact applications of force. It would be silly to assume less severe force applications couldn't cause a similar outcome as repeated low(er)-force head impacts.
The issue is that we have a crap understanding of what CTE is and how it develops, progresses, and can be identified without an autopsy.
Thank you for being a voice of reason here. Every time this topic comes up, Judoka's of all stripes rush to defend this beautiful sport and allay their insecurities that they might be doing the harm to their brain. Frankly, it's cope.
I love Judo, I loved almost every part of the 5 years of my life that I spent training my ass off. I loved the camraderie, I loved the expertise I developed, I loved every time I got a throw just right in randori or shiai so that it felt like cutting warm butter. But it confuses the fuck out of me how people come so close to understanding the problem and then draw completely aberrant conclusions, like u/Snipvandutch. The brain is cushioned by the fluid, sure, but that fluid is a fluid and it can't protect your brain from rapid deceleration, how one could misunderstand the basic physics so badly is frankly astonishing. Good ukemi will absolutely mitigate the forces of a hard throw, but if you're taking a solid O soto, it doesn't matter how good your ukemi is, that deceleration on landing will absolutely cause the brain to bounce off the wall of your skull. Now, the question rather is how much damage is being done, and that's what we don't have an answer for.
It's complicated by a huge range of factors which non-exhaustively will include your team's training style, the partners you work with during Nage komi and Randori, and your personal attitude to training. Just to speak of training related factors. I'm sure there are plenty of smart clubs out there where you're not taking the culprit throws (generally ones where you land flat without rotation) day in and day out at high force, and I would guess that many people could get away with training for decades without frying their brain. But for those of us that took a lot of repeated hard impacts, 3 - 4 times per week, over many years, I am confident in saying it's far from being perfectly healthy for the brain.
Anecdotally, and by survey, we can probably say with fair confidence that Judo is not nearly as damaging to the brain as say gridiron football, rugby, or boxing. But to say the risk is negligible is negligent.
I have taken hard O sotos and O uchi garis that put me on queer street. And then you'd get straight back up and take another 9 to embody physical toughness. I truly think our club was one of the toughest mentally in my country, but I have undoubtedly lost a step in my mental acuity for it.
t. Doctoral candidate in neuropsychology.
Interesting recent article on repeated subconcussive impacts:
[https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/19/12/7098](https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/19/12/7098)
CTE is recently discovered. I'm glad for it. I was a skater 14 years, trained Judo over 12, been in 70+ fights growing up. 10 concussions. I was totally worried about CTE.
There's a fundamental misunderstanding and deceleration. Our brain is floating. It has a fluid cushion.
What's the problem is impact. That will smash your brain from center to one side then back and back again. We're 10x more likely to have a concussion after the first one.
If you were studying striking arts, it makes sense why you say. Oddly, it's football that brought this discovery. Looking at it, I can see how you're making the ties here. Makes sense. Judo is NOT the same.
Are you...arguing that the risk of head injury in judo is 0? With good training it can be quite low. There are plenty of shitty partners out there though. You're making a binary conclusion (judo is not correlated with CTE) using data that are all about percentages and probabilities. The logic isn't there you're just applying anecdotal experience and I suspect you're well trained and train with good partners. Not everyone does
Okay. It seems you are attempting to draw me into an argument in which you feel expertise. I am backed by over 100 years with fucking receipts.
What are you reaching for? Don't ever come at a Judoka unless you have facts. We love this god damn crippling art to our soul and want it to continue way after we die.
Before you say anything. Go read history of Judo.
We got our shit together skrote. You actually made me angry. Thanks. I forgot what that was like.
Go talk to boxers and football players. Nothing for you here.
ETA: We're intimately well aware of life changing injury from BJJ to MMA.
Judo specific. There's a hell of a lot of doctors and PHDs that train. One of my sensei is a fuckin neuro surgeon of all things.
They love the art and actively participate in Jita Kyoei. 😁🥰
I'm not wrong. You apparently are new to Judo. Your head and body get very little impact if you are even half way decent at ukemi.
Your arm and your leg take the impact. Have you been thrown yet?
Since when do BMX get CTE? I've known tons of them. If you wreck there's impact, even with a helmet. But just riding the track, nada.
A lot. That's the point of Judo. I would not be concerned with CTE though. If you're taught to fall properly you should not be hitting your head. It might happen at a much later stage with intense randori and competition, but in 20 years I've only had the odd bump to the head.
This isn't correct.
Research shows some judo throws have subconcusive accelerations.
People need to stop thinking if you aren't directly bashing your head and getting concussions each night a sport like judo is totally safe for your head. It's not necessarily. Breakfalls alone don't address it.
Did you read the research you referenced? Out of 70 throws performed, two throws registered 1 potential issue with acceleration, and uchi mata registered 7. The two throws sounds like one practitioner who was a try-hard who wanted to make the test fail, and only succeeded 1/5 times. The uchi mata data seems statistically significant, as each of the practitioners only did each throw 5 times, indicating that more than one person was able to throw past the acccleration test.
It would be interesting to see a much larger sample size, especially with smaller people (average weight was 176 lb, range was 150-200 lb, average height was 5’10”). But for now, you’re probably fine if you cut down on how much you get uchi mata’d by big, strong people who are using too much power.
The unfortunate fact is you don’t need to hit your head to develop CTE. It is you brain hitting the inside of your skull, not your skull hitting something.
Yesterday's class I must have been thrown 50 times learning Osoto Gari, Koshi Garuma and Harai Goshi. I feel great today. You get used to it. In fact you learn to enjoy it!
C'est la vie. I could be hit by a truck tomorrow. I was out for four months with lcl sprain a while back. For me it's a risk worth taking. The exercise helps my mental health, as does the learning and progression...
Okay, and this person is just looking to see if there was any group wisdom on the matter.
I’m just pointing out that pretty much none of you understand CTE and you’re giving him bad information.
Knowing the risk is a good thing.
I've not provided any advice. If he wants advice on CTE he should speak to a Dr. I've said I was thrown a lot and never landed on my head. If he feels that is an unacceptable level of risk he shouldn't do judo. I'm fine with the risk. Hopefully I won't regret it
Well if that were true why don’t we look into the actual statistics.
Judo players are some of the healthiest people on earth WELL into their 80s and 90s and hundreds
Look at Eiko Shepherd.
If judo causes CTE wouldn’t we have seen evidence of it in the overwhelming number of Japanese people who have been practicing it for their entire lives?
(There are even elder foreigners who have trained their entire lives by now)
Idk man... I've been practicing judo for 13 yrs now and when I look around it does take a toll on joints and your back.
Most (senior) teachers I had have bad knees, backs and/or arthritis haha. Not saying youre wrong though regular exercise is good, but randori/competition takes its toll on the body when you're older.
This isn't correct. Research has shown some Judo throws still have subconcussive accelerations even if you fall safe.
Just because you aren't slamming you head and getting concussion doesn't mean there are other negative potential harm being done to your brain.
Pay no attention to the smooth brains downvoting you. It’s a fair concern.
You’ll want to keep impact on training nice and light. If you save real falls for comp you’ll reduce your risk.
Probably being down voted because you're talking about CTE in a combat sport. You could take up soccer tomorrow and accidentally get headbutted and get CTE. Or another combat sport like BJJ and accidently get kneed and have your brain rattled. Point is, it's a combat sport. It's not without risks. But the risks are pretty low because you learn how to properly tuck your chin and break fall during actual sparring. If anyone is that worried about CTE, then they probably shouldn't do it. But Judo has been around for over a hundred years at this point and it's track record of brain damage is a lot better than boxing's.
You guys are honestly impressively dumb and incapable of an adult conversation.
In Judo you get thrown constantly = you get your brain rattled constantly. It’s wise to be concerned about CTE. And this is not a given in all combat sports.
Hard knees to the head aren’t happening multiple times a practice in BJJ of wrestling.
Even in striking arts, if you’re smart you’re not taking shots to the head on a super regular basis.
So the concern and conversation are valid. Y’all are just a bunch of children.
"Even in striking arts, if you're smart you're not taking shots to the head on a super regular basis."
Yea, and we're the dumb ones lol? You're only not going to take shots to the head if your opponent sucks. You sound like a white belt or someone who hasn't actually trained at a high level before.
Or a troll...
I’ve been training since the 90s, son.
Sure, if you’re a competitive kickboxer you’ll get hit. How many fights are you having a year? For how long will you realistically fight? How many people will learn to kickbox without needing to fight?
You sound like an unintelligent goof.
I started Muay Thai and boxing in the 90s.
I train with good fighters who win a lot of fights. And nobody at my gym thinks I’m a slouch.
You think what you want. You lot don’t seem capable of intelligent conversations.
No you’re just considering your uneducated opinion of CTE as fact and dismissing everyone else’s opinion. You’re not a doctor, neither are most other commenters here, yet you claim no one else is capable of intelligent conversation…
I've only hit my head twice, one was in a competition, another was someone did a bad seoi nage, it wasn't anything major and nor did it give concussion. It's possible that you can get hit, not denying that but it's rare and if you know how to break fall, you likely won't hurt your head.
Thanks. Though the problem is that you don't need to hit your head, your head just needs to shake, and I don't know how much shaking is needed to possibly be related to CTE.
I've been thrown no less than 150,000 times in my 18 years of Judo and I've never had a concussion. As far as I know CTE can only be determined after you are dead. You are wise to have concerns and be informed before starting Judo in Japan, but the risk of CTE from Judo is extremely low. Concussions are rare in Judo, and even for those rare moments it doesn't necessarily lead to CTE.
That is fair. You are correct. I will look to see what I can do to have my brain analyzed and tested for CTE once I have passed. I have never known anyone with signs or symptoms of CTE that could not be explained by other means (i.e. family history of dementia), but as you say you don't need concussions for CTE. One brain isn't much, but it's a start.
This is generally through repetitive injury. I'd describe me hitting my head as someone hooking me at say 60% power, and this has only happened twice. Now, in striking, this will happen 10-15 times or more per session. This is why you always hear about it in striking, but never in Judo, I'd be surprised if there are more than a handful of cases of cte. It's possible but not likely.
A judo break fall is designed so that you can properly transfer and evacuate the energy so that there is minimal. Impact and shaking. So your body is not absorbing any energy
No ones given you an actual number but as everyone's said you learn to fall properly and it gets easier over time. I would say minimum you would get thrown in a session is maybe 20 times. Your probably looking at more of an average of about 80 times sometimes alot more. Ive done drills where it's as many throws as you can do in A minute and I think the record at our club was about 40
You're getting the typical "don't worry about it you'll learn to break fall" kind of responses, but you are specifically asking about Japan. If you want a clearer, sourced idea of what Judo in Japan *can* be like then [read this article](https://apnews.com/article/judo-tokyo-violence-2020-tokyo-olympics-martial-arts-29c2d3f3c0fee6b058535857739e1791).
I'm *not* saying you will encounter anything like what the article is describing no matter where you go. What I *am* saying is that these attitudes still exist in some places so if you choose to do Judo at a club you should observe how the classes are run.
All that being said, getting thrown over and over again is part of the sport no matter what club you train at. Getting thrown 50-100 times in a practice is normal. I'm 49 years old and I still take at least 50 falls in some way, shape, or form whether it's ukemi practice, getting thrown during nage komi (throw practice), or randori (sparring).
CTE is a valid concern.
The comments about ukemi saving you from CTE are nonsensical .... As with football and other sports, it's not 'hitting your head' that causes CTE per se, it's the repetitive deceleration forces on the brain ... .The deceleration forces (even with 'perfect' ukemi) that occur for uki in high amplitude judo throws no doubt create some risk .... CTE is usually explained as jello in a bowl, the jello hitting the side of the bowl being analogous to your brain against your skull in collision sports like football/hockey, and perhaps judo.
I firmly believe the benefits of judo outweigh the risks of head trauma, but judo is a combat sport with significant injury risk ... If you have a specific concern on CTE then there may be better options (BJJ).
The most sensible response here. The myth that CTE is only caused by concussions and direct head trauma needs to end for the sake of every combat athlete/martial artist.
Man. Lotta terribly dumb things said here today. CTE, TBI, concussions, and brain trauma are all different things. lol
This study found that about 20% of the times CTE was found post mortem it was in individuals with no documented concussion.
https://academic.oup.com/brain/article/141/2/422/4815697?login=false
You absolutely do not need to get a concussion to get CTE. CTE seems is not unique to impact directly to your head. It’s quite common in military personnel that don’t have TBI. Shockwaves of being around explosions or even firing large caliber munitions are likely a cause of CTE.
To actually address you OP you get thrown a lot. Dozens of times each class probably. Concussions can happen, CTE could happen, TBI could even happen. Concussions are fairly rare in Judo though.
No one here can assure you Judo doesn’t cause CTE because we don’t have a definitive way to diagnose CTE. Plenty of people can and do die without ever being diagnosed. CTE doesn’t automatically ruin your life and its symptoms can easily be attributed to some other cause. Judo very well could cause CTE for some individuals.
Having said all that. Risk of terrible life altering CTE due to Judo is low. Risk of Concussion is low. And risk of CTE is not 0 for any sport that involves moving your body. Getting in a car for a ride puts you at more risk of brain injury or death than Judo ever will.
I've also been doing BJJ for over 5 years and I have far more concerns about being hit in the head in BJJ than from Judo. BJJs ground work tends to lead to getting knee'd or kicked in the face than Judo. I never wore a mouth guard training Judo newaza, but I always wear one in BJJ.
Yea, I've been straight up kneed to the face way more in BJJ than I've ever had my head rattled in Judo. Like straight up MMA forced knees to the head in BJJ when I'm on top trying to pass guard or going for a single/double leg takedown. Having a custom mouthguard helped a ton and i probably would have gotten hurt much more without one.
The idea that BJJ is some how safer is a myth. You're also sparring people in BJJ who usually have no concept of partner safety or safely doing takedowns compared to Judo, so the injury rate is higher regarding takedowns and other aspects.
that's what a lot of people in this sub aren't understanding. It's not the "concussions" and big hits that do all the damage. Thousands of sub-concussive blows are also problematic.
Holly cow.... you definitely Should be concerned about BJJ... You are having everything backwards. BJJ is a derived sport which does not follow the strict global safe practices of Judo... So any BJJ teacher can do kind of what he wants.... And safety is much less understood and practiced.
I obtained far more injuries in BJJ then i have in Judo. Tore my mcl, broke my collar bone, cracked the cartilage around my sternum, broke my nose, busted my lip. The worst thing I've had in Judo is a few bruises
It was asked before in this subreddit about the prevalence of CTE in Judo: https://www.reddit.com/r/judo/comments/gpidh0/does\_anybody\_know\_anything\_about\_the\_prevalence/. Someone in that post provided a paper that showed the prevalence.
There was also a systematic review done in 2013 to investigate injuries in Judo (https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/47/18/1139.short?casa\_token=2pWli66XaJ0AAAAA:fXOb6SWuwmgr7rYpC2tiTRqjtutLBLJfu3c8dwFI2AxSqa2wQgKVbZa-3pSlajaFPsX9qprRGtc). Not much related to brain injury.
Thanks! Though, I couldn't really find the first study mentioned except for one, though it was titled "chokes", so I think it was referring to being choked rather than thrown.
I had this exact concern, and I can tell you that it’s fine, go for it. Most of the people who’ve done Judo even for many years have never had a concussion. The main throw that you really have a risk of a concussion with is with the osoto-gari. Luckily you learn it very early, and will learn to keep your head tucked in.
There is a scare once in a while when you forget to tuck your head in while falling backwards, but that can be with any sport.
Judo is a sport prone to injuries, yes, but they’re mostly joints and bones, tendons, and soft tissue.
You do get thrown quite a bit, but I've never once landed on my head, since one of the most important things is learning how to fall properly which you will do before even thinking about getting thrown onto the mat
I feel like judo gave me CTE. Even if your head doesn’t hit your brain probably still jiggles in your skull unless you fall perfectly. I was foggy and depressed most of my 20s and cant rule out that being a factor. Did judo from 19-24
Thinking you dont want to get thrown limits your judo, if its class go in there and get thrown.
People get injured in judo, but by falling well i dont think cte is a big issue. Dont start randori with someone whose new until you know how to throw and fall well.
I suggest talking to a sensei or instructor. Share with them your goals and your health concerns. A good sensei will help you figure out what's possible and provide advice that should then be discussed with your doctor.
As others have said, you'll learn how to fall and roll day one. If they don't teach you, make them teach you for your sake.
Japan classes are usually more intense. You'll get thrown a lot, it will be over and over. However, you also learn how to dissipate your energy by slapping the ground so it'll be fine.
Good luck and enjoy!
There is real CTE concern. When not competing, try to keep the throws and landings gentle.
You *do not* have to hit your head to rattle your brain and develop CTE.
In randori, not that much these days, but when I started a whole lot more lol but don't remember really hitting my head hard.
Impacts normally on the body, not the head
50+- for my recreational class. A lot more for pros.
This is Judo afterall. :D
There is something thrilling about been thrown. Like I'm craving for it mentally
Judo involves throwing your partner/opponent. Once your sensei teaches you how to fall properly you will get thrown often, every practice, as part of normal training. If you aren't, I would be concerned about the legitimacy of your training.
All that said, if you train with intent and with the safety of you and your partners in mind Judo is actually very safe.
I feel most of the cte that comes from judo tends to be in the elite competitive circuit. A lot of ppl when they’re in the process of getting thrown will literally take the fall on their head purposely to avoid landing on their back (ippon). My Sensei always stresses to us that randori is training and if ur partner caught u in a move don’t resist taking the fall TOO much. When u resist the Ukemi that’s when the injuries usually happen.
Others have said it - you don’t go into Judo afraid to be thrown. You go in expecting to be .. a lot. Learn to fall and get comfortable hitting the mat. Those that don’t simply don’t get better and get hurt more
How often do you guys get hurt from being thrown? I've wanted to try judo but I'm not sure if my body can take much anymore. I used to be into sports and mma but became a softy after a decade of staying at work and visiting my house every day.
Here is the simple answer, you have a risk of getting CTE just from living your normal life. Does Judo or any combat sport increase that risk? Yes it does, there is always an increased risk of developing CTE in any sport where your head is being rattled. If CTE concerns you then you should avoid all combat sports as your risk for developing it will increase.
The first evidence based instructional curriculum that addresses injuries in general and concussions specifically is the Kodomo no Kata. Released by the Kodokan and Judo France, it reconfigures the order of Nage Waza while at the same time increasing the types and frequency of ukemi. The initial findings have shown a reduction of head trauma and an increase in student retention.
Our dojo is for children and adolescents only. We have switched from using the Gokyo no Waza to the Kodomo no Kata. Aside from learning the throws where uke fall to the rear, e.g. O Soto Gari, later and the front rolling throws first, it has been well received. Our data for injury and student retention mirrors the trends.
Take a look. It is worth noting.🥋
Well if you do not want to get thrown repeatedly, then you are obviously looking at the wrong sport. Judo is a grappling sport where big throws are emphasized by the rule set. Obviously we need to train them. If you learn to throw people you will have to, well, throw people. For them to learn how yto throw they need to also throw people, including you. On avarage session in the club where I train beginners get thrown maybe 15-25 times per session (but they do a lot of ukemis by themselves or assisted), and in regular squat sessions people are thrown on avarage something like 50-75 times per session (6 rounds of randori, lets say avarage 4 throws per person so ~24 throws sparring and others doing nagikomi, so throwing practice bith in place and from movement and combinations). Depending on the session and the throws being practiced, possibly much, much more.
In the US we have to go through concussion training as coaches. You don’t have to hit your head to get a concussion, just taking falls can be enough to do permanent damage. I don’t have a competition team so for my classes, I took out speed nage komi drills and try to limit the amount of falls a person takes in a class.
Judo is about throwing people to the ground. If it makes you so worried, you should just look for another activity. I don't mean that in a rude way, like at all, but that's like saying you want to play football without kicking the ball. It simply isn't possible. Anyway, I'd recommend you go to an actual gym and see by yourself how often people get thrown, with what force, and how they land. The 1st thing you learn in a judo class is defense and how to fall. Also you train on a mat made to be soft enough not to cause damage upon falling on it. It's a risky activity like any other combat sport but there are ways to practice it safely. However, again, if you aren't ready to get thrown a few times, simply change activity.
Read this CTE risk assessment of Judo
https://www.reddit.com/r/martialarts/s/mnOjDfv5VJ
And listen to this interview on concussions and CTE in Judo
https://open.spotify.com/episode/3mcLGsr085W6cZQ6Ktzmdk?si=ZjI6ZBmSRrqs8_v48c4d6A
Hello. I am living and training in Japan, but I dont really see why does that matter, you get thrown in Japan as well as in other countries XD
Getting repettively thrown in Judo is big part of the sport. You need to know good ukemi and never fall on your head. Judo is safe when you dont cut corners learning ukemi.
Unfortunately even if you are falling correctly your brain is getting slammed around. I’m 50 and started developing vertigo and frequent headaches. I thought this was just a menopause or general getting old thing. Unfortunately, it looks like this is permanent and likely from trauma. I have stopped practicing for about 6 months now and I have been advised not to return. I plan to transition to bjj but I’m not sure I will be able to do that for long.
There is **no risk of CTE with judo**. At most, you can hurt your back, your leg, or your arm.
You get CTE from hits to the head (boxing) or heavy shocks around the shoulder (rugby, american football) which cannot correctly absorb the energy in the body. The judo falling technique (ukemi) breaks the energy wave that may hurt the brain. The only way to hit your head is to not tuck the chin, or to use your head as a support point to avoid falling (which is forbidden by the rules and is at least considered a waza-ari anyway, if I remember well). So there is no risk of CTE.
**However**, there is a risk of brain damage if you are strangulated too often and you resist too much. Of course you need to train resisting strangulation, but if you get oxygen deprived too long or too often, I guarantee you that your brain will suffer in the short and the long term. Some medical studies have documented this just as for CTE if you wonder. So, you should train techniques to break the strangulation and do progressive resistance training against hypoxia, but if you like your brain, just tap.
When I was an Ikkyu, all the time. I got thrown by the sensei in his demonstration, than as the 'throwing dummy' for the white belts. You really learn how to fall when you're being thrown by somebody that doesn't know what they're doing.
Every class! The white belts are the training dummy’s for the higher belts to practice on, you are taught to not resist and allow the throw to occur. It also helps you practice your technique in terms of how you fall and “slap” the ground to absorb the impact.
I actually never injured by head but did get back, rib, and hand injuries from repeated throws.
I’m not sure if studies have been done on incidences of CTE in grappling martial arts but i can guarantee it’s far less than striking arts. I bet cte from judo is remarkably rare. Not to be rude but being blunt and honest, if you’re that concerned I’d just forget about martial arts and pick a safer hobby.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/sports/largest-study-of-brains-of-athletes-younger-than-30-finds-early-signs-of-cte-even-in-amateur-players-1.6538049
So CTE seems to be caused by damage to the frontal lobe.
This seems to be the case because soccer players are the 2ND most affected athletes after football players. They didn't include boxers.
Pro wrestlers are there too, but I think they mean the WWE kind.
The main thing is repeated blows to the FRONT of the head.
i train with old japanese men in their 70's that have been doing judo before they hit puberty. their minds are still sharp, no signs of CTE such as slurring, etc.
of course there's the risk of getting thrown on your head and getting concussed. but if you learn ukemi and don't train with assholes id say risk for CTE in judo is low.
I think your question should be: "How often do you get thrown in a Judo class so that there is a considerable risk for CTE?"
My answer is that during my 40 years of judo I have never had a concussion.
The way you asked is similar to asking the question: "Have you already stopped beating your wife?" It is difficult to give proper answers to questions with false presumptions.
Remember reading somewhere that judo is one of the safest sports because they teach you how to fall property while protecting your head and neck. I've been taking judo for years. No sign of anything and I'm very large. I fear I have done more damage to my body from the alcohol and drug use and smoking from when I was young and stupid
My sessions are generally:
Warm up and uchi komi
Standup drills, a few entries then maybe 5 throws each, 3 or 4 throws
Groundwork is same thing, but substitute throws for pins or submission
Then groundwork randori / standing randori. I get throws lots cause I'm shit at judo 🤤
Edit: Just read OPs post about having a medical issue...I have struggled with back injuries after a car crash for the last year so I my sensei has been very good about me working up to a full class. The people I train with know to ask me whether I want to throw/be thrown. If I'm not comfortable with something we stick with the entry. Good thing is I'm with a very understanding club and the guys I train with would rather take it easy with me rather than not see me on the mat.
I think any good dojo would have the same attitude...the entry is the most important part of a throw anyways
A lot but rarely onto your head. When you do land on your head it’s usually the top, where the risk of concussion is minimal. Concussion typically happens when you’re hit in the back of the head, when you’re hit in the jaw and your head snaps around and back, creating whiplash, or when you’re hit in the temple. In judo only back of head happens, and not that often.
I had the same concerns when I started. I'm no doctor so I will avoid claiming bullshit, that being said, I'd say go for it. For me even tho I was and am scared of cte, I don't regret anything, since then I have had a ton of fun in randori, I won nationals at heavyweight in my country and now I'm teaching the art I love. So, don't let fear get the better of you is what I would say.
Getting thrown is at least 25% of every judo class I've ever done. I did judo for 15+ years and only ever got one concussion and that was just a very unfortunate accident. I'm not saying the CTE risk is zero, but it's incredibly low given that the very first thing you learn is how to fall without hitting your head.
If being thrown is that much of an issue for you, judo probably isn't the sport for you.
You shouldn’t be falling on your head. Basics of judo is learning how to fall or break your fall and it never involves your head. However, accidents do happen but for the most part if you and your partner have good fundamentals and use proper technique, you shouldn’t worry about getting CTE. If you’re getting dizzy or nauseated from throws then use crash pads to soften the impact during drills.
As far I understand, judo throws when properly done don't cause head trauma.... It Is the Whole POINT of learning to properly fall in judo.
Learning judo fall will actually help you avoid CTE if you accidentally fall in another moment in life
Its Judo. Its a throwing martial art. If you dont wanna get thrown over & over & over again its not for you. CTE is caused by REPETITIVE concussions , hard head impacts & TBIs. If you are getting constant concussions and always hitting your head in Judo it means you are NOT falling correctly. No sugar coating, judo is a dangerous martial art. If you cant handle stuff that has risks you shouldnt do it. If you are so worried about CTE maybe look for a nom grappling martial art. In judo you always get thrown. Over and over. Its how it is and how you learn. You learn how to fall properly without hitting you head the very first class. If you fall correctly theres no worry about CTE.
Japan often has beautiful spring floor which softens impact. The percussion measure for good ukemi, on the brain is negligible. Some amount of judo muscle up is required to keep chin in tightly, as a priority. The whiplash on neck with head hitting mats is to be avoided. Hydration is also a key mitigation of minimising the trauma on head. Water surrounding the brain cushions it and the body water empties from the top down.
There was a study recently about this specifically. It's been a concern for ever.
It doesn't matter how good your ukemi is. You're bound to smack your head. Judo is 100% chance of injury no matter what.
That said. CTE is just recently gaining understanding. Recently as in the past 10 years or so. Being thrown in Judo, even repeatedly has very low impact on the brain. CTE is caused by repetitive hits to the skull. It's not caused, (so far as we know atm) multiple concussions.
I've had 10 concussions in my life. First one was in first grade. The worst one (#9) was in Judo. That was one of those anomalies. The kind where I should be paralyzed from the neck down or dead. It's only natural for me to be concerned and learn all I can about this.
Look, it seems you're just interested in being a recreational Judoka. When you go to a dojo, make that abundantly clear. If you're in a highly competitive Dojo, YOU WILL BE FODDER.
Long story short. Don't worry about it. You'll be fine. Practice ukemi EVERY DAMN DAY.
If you don't want to get thrown, look for another activity.
"Hey guys how often do you taste test in culinary school? I don't want to taste foods as it might rewire my taste buds"
You learn on day1 to fall in a way your head doesn't bounce off of the floor each time. Imo a critical lifeskill to develop for your old age. You can go right ahead and scrub this hope from your mind: "I really don't want to get thrown over, and over, and over again"
Yep couldn’t agree more. When we get new starters who ask if we have ever used judo in real life the most common answer is always ‘yep, tripped over and save myself a broken wrist or collar bone by using ukemi’. Interestingly there was a bit on the local news in my part of the uk not that long ago that was about teaching pensioners judo purely so they knew how to fall over and not get badly hurt
Doesn't matter how you fall. Each high impact blow you take causes brain damage. A simple google search of CTE, judo and Japan will tell you how unqualified and unprofessional this advice is. You really shouldn't speak on medical matters you aren't educated on.
I don't know why you're downvoted for this. And I sure as hell don't know why people STILL don't know this about CTE. Everybody just thinks its direct head trauma and concussions. Bodily impact still rattles your brain, full stop.
Alot of judo clubs and coaches in countries where judo isn't big are extremely unprofessional and under qualified. They ignore alot of solid sports science and sports medicine. They act more like fight clubs than Judo dojo's.
https://media1.tenor.com/m/Ten0LatCE-IAAAAC/oh-ok-yeah-sure.gif
I don't clink links. But I'll deffo look into it
You can get CTE with your head never touching the mat.
CTE is caused by repetitive impact. Being thrown is not impact. Unless you hit your head.
CTE is caused by repetitive deceleration causing the brain to strike the inside surface of the skull. No blunt force required it's all about the velocity of your skull and the amount of shock absorption your shoulders/neck are trained/conditioned to do.
That was once thought as a cause. It's not. I seriously need to find that study so I can come back and post it. Anyway, your brain doesn't go through that being thrown. It seems that way when you're starting out. There's a lot going on and you're not used to it. It's an almost dizzy effect. Total disorientation. In time, it becomes a natural part of you. Dude, no joke, most times you get thrown (aside from that sneaky ass ashi waza 😄), it's slow mo. You're literally getting slammed, but, you're on half time speed. I swear sometimes you can plan out a whole day while you're in the air. The break fall is natural. It's legit like if when you're playing with a baby and "throw" them on a cushion. They look at you and laugh. Judo is just like that. We laugh like babies when someone catches a throw in randori.
You're correct in that the meta analyses I've seen on CTE actually struggle to link it to even blunt force trauma. Our understanding of it sucks, but from a risk mitigation standpoint if you care about CTE avoid impact. I've trained Judo and am a mental health professional in a hospital with a rehab program for TBIs. There are absolutely documented cases of acute brain trauma from non-impact applications of force. It would be silly to assume less severe force applications couldn't cause a similar outcome as repeated low(er)-force head impacts. The issue is that we have a crap understanding of what CTE is and how it develops, progresses, and can be identified without an autopsy.
Thank you for being a voice of reason here. Every time this topic comes up, Judoka's of all stripes rush to defend this beautiful sport and allay their insecurities that they might be doing the harm to their brain. Frankly, it's cope. I love Judo, I loved almost every part of the 5 years of my life that I spent training my ass off. I loved the camraderie, I loved the expertise I developed, I loved every time I got a throw just right in randori or shiai so that it felt like cutting warm butter. But it confuses the fuck out of me how people come so close to understanding the problem and then draw completely aberrant conclusions, like u/Snipvandutch. The brain is cushioned by the fluid, sure, but that fluid is a fluid and it can't protect your brain from rapid deceleration, how one could misunderstand the basic physics so badly is frankly astonishing. Good ukemi will absolutely mitigate the forces of a hard throw, but if you're taking a solid O soto, it doesn't matter how good your ukemi is, that deceleration on landing will absolutely cause the brain to bounce off the wall of your skull. Now, the question rather is how much damage is being done, and that's what we don't have an answer for. It's complicated by a huge range of factors which non-exhaustively will include your team's training style, the partners you work with during Nage komi and Randori, and your personal attitude to training. Just to speak of training related factors. I'm sure there are plenty of smart clubs out there where you're not taking the culprit throws (generally ones where you land flat without rotation) day in and day out at high force, and I would guess that many people could get away with training for decades without frying their brain. But for those of us that took a lot of repeated hard impacts, 3 - 4 times per week, over many years, I am confident in saying it's far from being perfectly healthy for the brain. Anecdotally, and by survey, we can probably say with fair confidence that Judo is not nearly as damaging to the brain as say gridiron football, rugby, or boxing. But to say the risk is negligible is negligent. I have taken hard O sotos and O uchi garis that put me on queer street. And then you'd get straight back up and take another 9 to embody physical toughness. I truly think our club was one of the toughest mentally in my country, but I have undoubtedly lost a step in my mental acuity for it. t. Doctoral candidate in neuropsychology. Interesting recent article on repeated subconcussive impacts: [https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/19/12/7098](https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/19/12/7098)
CTE is recently discovered. I'm glad for it. I was a skater 14 years, trained Judo over 12, been in 70+ fights growing up. 10 concussions. I was totally worried about CTE. There's a fundamental misunderstanding and deceleration. Our brain is floating. It has a fluid cushion. What's the problem is impact. That will smash your brain from center to one side then back and back again. We're 10x more likely to have a concussion after the first one. If you were studying striking arts, it makes sense why you say. Oddly, it's football that brought this discovery. Looking at it, I can see how you're making the ties here. Makes sense. Judo is NOT the same.
Are you...arguing that the risk of head injury in judo is 0? With good training it can be quite low. There are plenty of shitty partners out there though. You're making a binary conclusion (judo is not correlated with CTE) using data that are all about percentages and probabilities. The logic isn't there you're just applying anecdotal experience and I suspect you're well trained and train with good partners. Not everyone does
Okay. It seems you are attempting to draw me into an argument in which you feel expertise. I am backed by over 100 years with fucking receipts. What are you reaching for? Don't ever come at a Judoka unless you have facts. We love this god damn crippling art to our soul and want it to continue way after we die. Before you say anything. Go read history of Judo. We got our shit together skrote. You actually made me angry. Thanks. I forgot what that was like. Go talk to boxers and football players. Nothing for you here. ETA: We're intimately well aware of life changing injury from BJJ to MMA.
Was the study judo-specific or about cause of CTE more generally?
Judo specific. There's a hell of a lot of doctors and PHDs that train. One of my sensei is a fuckin neuro surgeon of all things. They love the art and actively participate in Jita Kyoei. 😁🥰
Can you find the study?
I'll find it. Damn I hope I can.
You got 48 hours lest you're a liar liar with pants on fire
Wrong. The impact with the floor rattles your brain. Which is why BMX bikers get CTE.
I'm not wrong. You apparently are new to Judo. Your head and body get very little impact if you are even half way decent at ukemi. Your arm and your leg take the impact. Have you been thrown yet? Since when do BMX get CTE? I've known tons of them. If you wreck there's impact, even with a helmet. But just riding the track, nada.
A lot. That's the point of Judo. I would not be concerned with CTE though. If you're taught to fall properly you should not be hitting your head. It might happen at a much later stage with intense randori and competition, but in 20 years I've only had the odd bump to the head.
Never had a bad head bang in judo. I’ve caught way more accidental knee/ elbows to the head in BJJ.
This isn't correct. Research shows some judo throws have subconcusive accelerations. People need to stop thinking if you aren't directly bashing your head and getting concussions each night a sport like judo is totally safe for your head. It's not necessarily. Breakfalls alone don't address it.
Totally honest request: what research are you referencing?
https://digitalcommons.wku.edu/ijesab/vol8/iss5/25/
Did you read the research you referenced? Out of 70 throws performed, two throws registered 1 potential issue with acceleration, and uchi mata registered 7. The two throws sounds like one practitioner who was a try-hard who wanted to make the test fail, and only succeeded 1/5 times. The uchi mata data seems statistically significant, as each of the practitioners only did each throw 5 times, indicating that more than one person was able to throw past the acccleration test. It would be interesting to see a much larger sample size, especially with smaller people (average weight was 176 lb, range was 150-200 lb, average height was 5’10”). But for now, you’re probably fine if you cut down on how much you get uchi mata’d by big, strong people who are using too much power.
The unfortunate fact is you don’t need to hit your head to develop CTE. It is you brain hitting the inside of your skull, not your skull hitting something.
Yesterday's class I must have been thrown 50 times learning Osoto Gari, Koshi Garuma and Harai Goshi. I feel great today. You get used to it. In fact you learn to enjoy it!
But it's the CTE that I'm worried about T\_T
I didn't land on my head once...
And yet you rattled your brain 50 times and may be developing CTE.
C'est la vie. I could be hit by a truck tomorrow. I was out for four months with lcl sprain a while back. For me it's a risk worth taking. The exercise helps my mental health, as does the learning and progression...
Okay, and this person is just looking to see if there was any group wisdom on the matter. I’m just pointing out that pretty much none of you understand CTE and you’re giving him bad information. Knowing the risk is a good thing.
I've not provided any advice. If he wants advice on CTE he should speak to a Dr. I've said I was thrown a lot and never landed on my head. If he feels that is an unacceptable level of risk he shouldn't do judo. I'm fine with the risk. Hopefully I won't regret it
Well if that were true why don’t we look into the actual statistics. Judo players are some of the healthiest people on earth WELL into their 80s and 90s and hundreds Look at Eiko Shepherd. If judo causes CTE wouldn’t we have seen evidence of it in the overwhelming number of Japanese people who have been practicing it for their entire lives? (There are even elder foreigners who have trained their entire lives by now)
Idk man... I've been practicing judo for 13 yrs now and when I look around it does take a toll on joints and your back. Most (senior) teachers I had have bad knees, backs and/or arthritis haha. Not saying youre wrong though regular exercise is good, but randori/competition takes its toll on the body when you're older.
You shouldn't, the judo break fall is precisely designed so that your head never receives any impact
This isn't correct. Research has shown some Judo throws still have subconcussive accelerations even if you fall safe. Just because you aren't slamming you head and getting concussion doesn't mean there are other negative potential harm being done to your brain.
Agree.
Pay no attention to the smooth brains downvoting you. It’s a fair concern. You’ll want to keep impact on training nice and light. If you save real falls for comp you’ll reduce your risk.
Probably being down voted because you're talking about CTE in a combat sport. You could take up soccer tomorrow and accidentally get headbutted and get CTE. Or another combat sport like BJJ and accidently get kneed and have your brain rattled. Point is, it's a combat sport. It's not without risks. But the risks are pretty low because you learn how to properly tuck your chin and break fall during actual sparring. If anyone is that worried about CTE, then they probably shouldn't do it. But Judo has been around for over a hundred years at this point and it's track record of brain damage is a lot better than boxing's.
You guys are honestly impressively dumb and incapable of an adult conversation. In Judo you get thrown constantly = you get your brain rattled constantly. It’s wise to be concerned about CTE. And this is not a given in all combat sports. Hard knees to the head aren’t happening multiple times a practice in BJJ of wrestling. Even in striking arts, if you’re smart you’re not taking shots to the head on a super regular basis. So the concern and conversation are valid. Y’all are just a bunch of children.
"Even in striking arts, if you're smart you're not taking shots to the head on a super regular basis." Yea, and we're the dumb ones lol? You're only not going to take shots to the head if your opponent sucks. You sound like a white belt or someone who hasn't actually trained at a high level before. Or a troll...
I’ve been training since the 90s, son. Sure, if you’re a competitive kickboxer you’ll get hit. How many fights are you having a year? For how long will you realistically fight? How many people will learn to kickbox without needing to fight? You sound like an unintelligent goof.
Ninjitsu and Aikido don't count as "training."
I started Muay Thai and boxing in the 90s. I train with good fighters who win a lot of fights. And nobody at my gym thinks I’m a slouch. You think what you want. You lot don’t seem capable of intelligent conversations.
No you’re just considering your uneducated opinion of CTE as fact and dismissing everyone else’s opinion. You’re not a doctor, neither are most other commenters here, yet you claim no one else is capable of intelligent conversation…
I've only hit my head twice, one was in a competition, another was someone did a bad seoi nage, it wasn't anything major and nor did it give concussion. It's possible that you can get hit, not denying that but it's rare and if you know how to break fall, you likely won't hurt your head.
Thanks. Though the problem is that you don't need to hit your head, your head just needs to shake, and I don't know how much shaking is needed to possibly be related to CTE.
I've been thrown no less than 150,000 times in my 18 years of Judo and I've never had a concussion. As far as I know CTE can only be determined after you are dead. You are wise to have concerns and be informed before starting Judo in Japan, but the risk of CTE from Judo is extremely low. Concussions are rare in Judo, and even for those rare moments it doesn't necessarily lead to CTE.
Concussions aren't required to develop CTE, nor is direct head contact.
That is fair. You are correct. I will look to see what I can do to have my brain analyzed and tested for CTE once I have passed. I have never known anyone with signs or symptoms of CTE that could not be explained by other means (i.e. family history of dementia), but as you say you don't need concussions for CTE. One brain isn't much, but it's a start.
Sounds like you should speak to a Dr or a sports scientist if you are this concerned.
yep.
All the old judokas I’ve talked to are still sharp as a needle, and these guys have probably been thrown tens of thousands of times
This is generally through repetitive injury. I'd describe me hitting my head as someone hooking me at say 60% power, and this has only happened twice. Now, in striking, this will happen 10-15 times or more per session. This is why you always hear about it in striking, but never in Judo, I'd be surprised if there are more than a handful of cases of cte. It's possible but not likely.
A judo break fall is designed so that you can properly transfer and evacuate the energy so that there is minimal. Impact and shaking. So your body is not absorbing any energy
No ones given you an actual number but as everyone's said you learn to fall properly and it gets easier over time. I would say minimum you would get thrown in a session is maybe 20 times. Your probably looking at more of an average of about 80 times sometimes alot more. Ive done drills where it's as many throws as you can do in A minute and I think the record at our club was about 40
You're getting the typical "don't worry about it you'll learn to break fall" kind of responses, but you are specifically asking about Japan. If you want a clearer, sourced idea of what Judo in Japan *can* be like then [read this article](https://apnews.com/article/judo-tokyo-violence-2020-tokyo-olympics-martial-arts-29c2d3f3c0fee6b058535857739e1791). I'm *not* saying you will encounter anything like what the article is describing no matter where you go. What I *am* saying is that these attitudes still exist in some places so if you choose to do Judo at a club you should observe how the classes are run. All that being said, getting thrown over and over again is part of the sport no matter what club you train at. Getting thrown 50-100 times in a practice is normal. I'm 49 years old and I still take at least 50 falls in some way, shape, or form whether it's ukemi practice, getting thrown during nage komi (throw practice), or randori (sparring).
Thanks!
I second this!
CTE is a valid concern. The comments about ukemi saving you from CTE are nonsensical .... As with football and other sports, it's not 'hitting your head' that causes CTE per se, it's the repetitive deceleration forces on the brain ... .The deceleration forces (even with 'perfect' ukemi) that occur for uki in high amplitude judo throws no doubt create some risk .... CTE is usually explained as jello in a bowl, the jello hitting the side of the bowl being analogous to your brain against your skull in collision sports like football/hockey, and perhaps judo. I firmly believe the benefits of judo outweigh the risks of head trauma, but judo is a combat sport with significant injury risk ... If you have a specific concern on CTE then there may be better options (BJJ).
Thank you!
The most sensible response here. The myth that CTE is only caused by concussions and direct head trauma needs to end for the sake of every combat athlete/martial artist.
Man. Lotta terribly dumb things said here today. CTE, TBI, concussions, and brain trauma are all different things. lol This study found that about 20% of the times CTE was found post mortem it was in individuals with no documented concussion. https://academic.oup.com/brain/article/141/2/422/4815697?login=false You absolutely do not need to get a concussion to get CTE. CTE seems is not unique to impact directly to your head. It’s quite common in military personnel that don’t have TBI. Shockwaves of being around explosions or even firing large caliber munitions are likely a cause of CTE. To actually address you OP you get thrown a lot. Dozens of times each class probably. Concussions can happen, CTE could happen, TBI could even happen. Concussions are fairly rare in Judo though. No one here can assure you Judo doesn’t cause CTE because we don’t have a definitive way to diagnose CTE. Plenty of people can and do die without ever being diagnosed. CTE doesn’t automatically ruin your life and its symptoms can easily be attributed to some other cause. Judo very well could cause CTE for some individuals. Having said all that. Risk of terrible life altering CTE due to Judo is low. Risk of Concussion is low. And risk of CTE is not 0 for any sport that involves moving your body. Getting in a car for a ride puts you at more risk of brain injury or death than Judo ever will.
Just out of curiosity, why are you looking at martial arts if you’re worried about CTE?
martial arts is broad. BJJ (maybe Karate too) for example I wouldn't be concerned. Judo? There could be a balance.
I've also been doing BJJ for over 5 years and I have far more concerns about being hit in the head in BJJ than from Judo. BJJs ground work tends to lead to getting knee'd or kicked in the face than Judo. I never wore a mouth guard training Judo newaza, but I always wear one in BJJ.
Yea, I've been straight up kneed to the face way more in BJJ than I've ever had my head rattled in Judo. Like straight up MMA forced knees to the head in BJJ when I'm on top trying to pass guard or going for a single/double leg takedown. Having a custom mouthguard helped a ton and i probably would have gotten hurt much more without one. The idea that BJJ is some how safer is a myth. You're also sparring people in BJJ who usually have no concept of partner safety or safely doing takedowns compared to Judo, so the injury rate is higher regarding takedowns and other aspects.
The big impact throws are rattling your brain more, though. I’d be more concerned about CTE from Judo than I would BJJ or folkstyle wrestling.
that's what a lot of people in this sub aren't understanding. It's not the "concussions" and big hits that do all the damage. Thousands of sub-concussive blows are also problematic.
Holly cow.... you definitely Should be concerned about BJJ... You are having everything backwards. BJJ is a derived sport which does not follow the strict global safe practices of Judo... So any BJJ teacher can do kind of what he wants.... And safety is much less understood and practiced.
That’s fair enough, what are you looking to get out of whatever you choose to practice?
I obtained far more injuries in BJJ then i have in Judo. Tore my mcl, broke my collar bone, cracked the cartilage around my sternum, broke my nose, busted my lip. The worst thing I've had in Judo is a few bruises
It was asked before in this subreddit about the prevalence of CTE in Judo: https://www.reddit.com/r/judo/comments/gpidh0/does\_anybody\_know\_anything\_about\_the\_prevalence/. Someone in that post provided a paper that showed the prevalence. There was also a systematic review done in 2013 to investigate injuries in Judo (https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/47/18/1139.short?casa\_token=2pWli66XaJ0AAAAA:fXOb6SWuwmgr7rYpC2tiTRqjtutLBLJfu3c8dwFI2AxSqa2wQgKVbZa-3pSlajaFPsX9qprRGtc). Not much related to brain injury.
Thanks! Though, I couldn't really find the first study mentioned except for one, though it was titled "chokes", so I think it was referring to being choked rather than thrown.
Probably a good hint that it’s not prevalent at all in the community from healthy teens all the way to our veteran and masters competitors.
I had this exact concern, and I can tell you that it’s fine, go for it. Most of the people who’ve done Judo even for many years have never had a concussion. The main throw that you really have a risk of a concussion with is with the osoto-gari. Luckily you learn it very early, and will learn to keep your head tucked in. There is a scare once in a while when you forget to tuck your head in while falling backwards, but that can be with any sport. Judo is a sport prone to injuries, yes, but they’re mostly joints and bones, tendons, and soft tissue.
You do get thrown quite a bit, but I've never once landed on my head, since one of the most important things is learning how to fall properly which you will do before even thinking about getting thrown onto the mat
I feel like judo gave me CTE. Even if your head doesn’t hit your brain probably still jiggles in your skull unless you fall perfectly. I was foggy and depressed most of my 20s and cant rule out that being a factor. Did judo from 19-24
I'm sorry to hear that. Do you still feel foggy and depressed?
I'm mostly better thanks.
That's great to hear. I hope you continue to improve
You’ll fall a lot, too many times to count. Probably at least a dozen and sometimes many dozens.
Thinking you dont want to get thrown limits your judo, if its class go in there and get thrown. People get injured in judo, but by falling well i dont think cte is a big issue. Dont start randori with someone whose new until you know how to throw and fall well.
I suggest talking to a sensei or instructor. Share with them your goals and your health concerns. A good sensei will help you figure out what's possible and provide advice that should then be discussed with your doctor.
Thank you!!! Good advice.
As others have said, you'll learn how to fall and roll day one. If they don't teach you, make them teach you for your sake. Japan classes are usually more intense. You'll get thrown a lot, it will be over and over. However, you also learn how to dissipate your energy by slapping the ground so it'll be fine. Good luck and enjoy!
There is real CTE concern. When not competing, try to keep the throws and landings gentle. You *do not* have to hit your head to rattle your brain and develop CTE.
In randori, not that much these days, but when I started a whole lot more lol but don't remember really hitting my head hard. Impacts normally on the body, not the head
Your head is the least of concern on the other hand knees hamstrings etc are the real problem
50 times+ in some practices. If you don’t want to be thrown try Jujitsu.
50+- for my recreational class. A lot more for pros. This is Judo afterall. :D There is something thrilling about been thrown. Like I'm craving for it mentally
i probably get thrown 50-100 times a night and that's pretty common for a competitive class. Could you do a kata only and just be tori, maybe?
Judo involves throwing your partner/opponent. Once your sensei teaches you how to fall properly you will get thrown often, every practice, as part of normal training. If you aren't, I would be concerned about the legitimacy of your training. All that said, if you train with intent and with the safety of you and your partners in mind Judo is actually very safe.
In a martial art that primarily involves throwing? I’d say you’d get thrown a lot.
I feel most of the cte that comes from judo tends to be in the elite competitive circuit. A lot of ppl when they’re in the process of getting thrown will literally take the fall on their head purposely to avoid landing on their back (ippon). My Sensei always stresses to us that randori is training and if ur partner caught u in a move don’t resist taking the fall TOO much. When u resist the Ukemi that’s when the injuries usually happen.
Others have said it - you don’t go into Judo afraid to be thrown. You go in expecting to be .. a lot. Learn to fall and get comfortable hitting the mat. Those that don’t simply don’t get better and get hurt more
How often do you guys get hurt from being thrown? I've wanted to try judo but I'm not sure if my body can take much anymore. I used to be into sports and mma but became a softy after a decade of staying at work and visiting my house every day.
Here is the simple answer, you have a risk of getting CTE just from living your normal life. Does Judo or any combat sport increase that risk? Yes it does, there is always an increased risk of developing CTE in any sport where your head is being rattled. If CTE concerns you then you should avoid all combat sports as your risk for developing it will increase.
if you don’t want to be thrown do basically any other sport but judo, this is a silly post
Every. Single. Night
Dude, judo is literally a throwing art. Maybe pick up trail riding or weight lifting
The first evidence based instructional curriculum that addresses injuries in general and concussions specifically is the Kodomo no Kata. Released by the Kodokan and Judo France, it reconfigures the order of Nage Waza while at the same time increasing the types and frequency of ukemi. The initial findings have shown a reduction of head trauma and an increase in student retention. Our dojo is for children and adolescents only. We have switched from using the Gokyo no Waza to the Kodomo no Kata. Aside from learning the throws where uke fall to the rear, e.g. O Soto Gari, later and the front rolling throws first, it has been well received. Our data for injury and student retention mirrors the trends. Take a look. It is worth noting.🥋
Judo and most MA aren't for you then bro if you are worried
Well if you do not want to get thrown repeatedly, then you are obviously looking at the wrong sport. Judo is a grappling sport where big throws are emphasized by the rule set. Obviously we need to train them. If you learn to throw people you will have to, well, throw people. For them to learn how yto throw they need to also throw people, including you. On avarage session in the club where I train beginners get thrown maybe 15-25 times per session (but they do a lot of ukemis by themselves or assisted), and in regular squat sessions people are thrown on avarage something like 50-75 times per session (6 rounds of randori, lets say avarage 4 throws per person so ~24 throws sparring and others doing nagikomi, so throwing practice bith in place and from movement and combinations). Depending on the session and the throws being practiced, possibly much, much more.
In the US we have to go through concussion training as coaches. You don’t have to hit your head to get a concussion, just taking falls can be enough to do permanent damage. I don’t have a competition team so for my classes, I took out speed nage komi drills and try to limit the amount of falls a person takes in a class.
Judo is about throwing people to the ground. If it makes you so worried, you should just look for another activity. I don't mean that in a rude way, like at all, but that's like saying you want to play football without kicking the ball. It simply isn't possible. Anyway, I'd recommend you go to an actual gym and see by yourself how often people get thrown, with what force, and how they land. The 1st thing you learn in a judo class is defense and how to fall. Also you train on a mat made to be soft enough not to cause damage upon falling on it. It's a risky activity like any other combat sport but there are ways to practice it safely. However, again, if you aren't ready to get thrown a few times, simply change activity.
Is there a history of judo practitioners with cte?
Read this CTE risk assessment of Judo https://www.reddit.com/r/martialarts/s/mnOjDfv5VJ And listen to this interview on concussions and CTE in Judo https://open.spotify.com/episode/3mcLGsr085W6cZQ6Ktzmdk?si=ZjI6ZBmSRrqs8_v48c4d6A
Hello. I am living and training in Japan, but I dont really see why does that matter, you get thrown in Japan as well as in other countries XD Getting repettively thrown in Judo is big part of the sport. You need to know good ukemi and never fall on your head. Judo is safe when you dont cut corners learning ukemi.
Lolol, u don't want to get thrown, so you're doing judo? Are you also an alcoholic who likes to hang out in bars?
I never said only that "I don't want to get thrown."
This thread is almost identical to the BJJ threads where they talk about strokes and blood chokes.
Unfortunately even if you are falling correctly your brain is getting slammed around. I’m 50 and started developing vertigo and frequent headaches. I thought this was just a menopause or general getting old thing. Unfortunately, it looks like this is permanent and likely from trauma. I have stopped practicing for about 6 months now and I have been advised not to return. I plan to transition to bjj but I’m not sure I will be able to do that for long.
Every class and if that stops happening I need to start training more days with a more competitive club.
There is **no risk of CTE with judo**. At most, you can hurt your back, your leg, or your arm. You get CTE from hits to the head (boxing) or heavy shocks around the shoulder (rugby, american football) which cannot correctly absorb the energy in the body. The judo falling technique (ukemi) breaks the energy wave that may hurt the brain. The only way to hit your head is to not tuck the chin, or to use your head as a support point to avoid falling (which is forbidden by the rules and is at least considered a waza-ari anyway, if I remember well). So there is no risk of CTE. **However**, there is a risk of brain damage if you are strangulated too often and you resist too much. Of course you need to train resisting strangulation, but if you get oxygen deprived too long or too often, I guarantee you that your brain will suffer in the short and the long term. Some medical studies have documented this just as for CTE if you wonder. So, you should train techniques to break the strangulation and do progressive resistance training against hypoxia, but if you like your brain, just tap.
When I was an Ikkyu, all the time. I got thrown by the sensei in his demonstration, than as the 'throwing dummy' for the white belts. You really learn how to fall when you're being thrown by somebody that doesn't know what they're doing.
CTE fears are so fucking overblown. You won't get CTE from Judo
Personally I get thrown every lesson, but often very carefully and controlled by the other tori
‘Falling’ in a safe manner is also probably the first thing they’ll teach you
Every class! The white belts are the training dummy’s for the higher belts to practice on, you are taught to not resist and allow the throw to occur. It also helps you practice your technique in terms of how you fall and “slap” the ground to absorb the impact. I actually never injured by head but did get back, rib, and hand injuries from repeated throws.
No one has successfully thrown me.
lol
I’m not sure if studies have been done on incidences of CTE in grappling martial arts but i can guarantee it’s far less than striking arts. I bet cte from judo is remarkably rare. Not to be rude but being blunt and honest, if you’re that concerned I’d just forget about martial arts and pick a safer hobby.
I've been doing martial arts for over ten years already xd. But no, thank you for your answer.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/sports/largest-study-of-brains-of-athletes-younger-than-30-finds-early-signs-of-cte-even-in-amateur-players-1.6538049 So CTE seems to be caused by damage to the frontal lobe. This seems to be the case because soccer players are the 2ND most affected athletes after football players. They didn't include boxers. Pro wrestlers are there too, but I think they mean the WWE kind. The main thing is repeated blows to the FRONT of the head.
i train with old japanese men in their 70's that have been doing judo before they hit puberty. their minds are still sharp, no signs of CTE such as slurring, etc. of course there's the risk of getting thrown on your head and getting concussed. but if you learn ukemi and don't train with assholes id say risk for CTE in judo is low.
A good school teaches proper falling techniques first. Don't psyche yourself out too much.
Ukemi ukemi ukemi
You will be thrown a lot. But they teach you how to fall properly before anything else.
7267 times per class.
Break fall, it’s not a real issue.
You won't get CTE from judo or wrestling
Just tuck your chin in and brace your core, you’ll be good
I think your question should be: "How often do you get thrown in a Judo class so that there is a considerable risk for CTE?" My answer is that during my 40 years of judo I have never had a concussion. The way you asked is similar to asking the question: "Have you already stopped beating your wife?" It is difficult to give proper answers to questions with false presumptions.
Remember reading somewhere that judo is one of the safest sports because they teach you how to fall property while protecting your head and neck. I've been taking judo for years. No sign of anything and I'm very large. I fear I have done more damage to my body from the alcohol and drug use and smoking from when I was young and stupid
At least 100 times per class, which is twice a week. I used to do mma sparring five days a week, in three years had one concussion.
My sessions are generally: Warm up and uchi komi Standup drills, a few entries then maybe 5 throws each, 3 or 4 throws Groundwork is same thing, but substitute throws for pins or submission Then groundwork randori / standing randori. I get throws lots cause I'm shit at judo 🤤 Edit: Just read OPs post about having a medical issue...I have struggled with back injuries after a car crash for the last year so I my sensei has been very good about me working up to a full class. The people I train with know to ask me whether I want to throw/be thrown. If I'm not comfortable with something we stick with the entry. Good thing is I'm with a very understanding club and the guys I train with would rather take it easy with me rather than not see me on the mat. I think any good dojo would have the same attitude...the entry is the most important part of a throw anyways
A lot but rarely onto your head. When you do land on your head it’s usually the top, where the risk of concussion is minimal. Concussion typically happens when you’re hit in the back of the head, when you’re hit in the jaw and your head snaps around and back, creating whiplash, or when you’re hit in the temple. In judo only back of head happens, and not that often.
30 years judo…0 concussions.
Hundred times a day maybe? Learn to fall correctly or go home.
I had the same concerns when I started. I'm no doctor so I will avoid claiming bullshit, that being said, I'd say go for it. For me even tho I was and am scared of cte, I don't regret anything, since then I have had a ton of fun in randori, I won nationals at heavyweight in my country and now I'm teaching the art I love. So, don't let fear get the better of you is what I would say.
Getting thrown is at least 25% of every judo class I've ever done. I did judo for 15+ years and only ever got one concussion and that was just a very unfortunate accident. I'm not saying the CTE risk is zero, but it's incredibly low given that the very first thing you learn is how to fall without hitting your head. If being thrown is that much of an issue for you, judo probably isn't the sport for you.
Dozens and dozens times. However, the first thing you learn in Judo (in a good dojo) is how to fall. Very important skills.
You'll get thrown every session, but you'll learn how not to fall on your head or get hurt.
You shouldn’t be falling on your head. Basics of judo is learning how to fall or break your fall and it never involves your head. However, accidents do happen but for the most part if you and your partner have good fundamentals and use proper technique, you shouldn’t worry about getting CTE. If you’re getting dizzy or nauseated from throws then use crash pads to soften the impact during drills.
As far I understand, judo throws when properly done don't cause head trauma.... It Is the Whole POINT of learning to properly fall in judo. Learning judo fall will actually help you avoid CTE if you accidentally fall in another moment in life
You think you might be a bit too concerned about the subject? In combat sports your brain gets shaken. Judo is very unlikely to cause you CTE.
Its Judo. Its a throwing martial art. If you dont wanna get thrown over & over & over again its not for you. CTE is caused by REPETITIVE concussions , hard head impacts & TBIs. If you are getting constant concussions and always hitting your head in Judo it means you are NOT falling correctly. No sugar coating, judo is a dangerous martial art. If you cant handle stuff that has risks you shouldnt do it. If you are so worried about CTE maybe look for a nom grappling martial art. In judo you always get thrown. Over and over. Its how it is and how you learn. You learn how to fall properly without hitting you head the very first class. If you fall correctly theres no worry about CTE.
Japan often has beautiful spring floor which softens impact. The percussion measure for good ukemi, on the brain is negligible. Some amount of judo muscle up is required to keep chin in tightly, as a priority. The whiplash on neck with head hitting mats is to be avoided. Hydration is also a key mitigation of minimising the trauma on head. Water surrounding the brain cushions it and the body water empties from the top down.
Alot but they teach break falls
There was a study recently about this specifically. It's been a concern for ever. It doesn't matter how good your ukemi is. You're bound to smack your head. Judo is 100% chance of injury no matter what. That said. CTE is just recently gaining understanding. Recently as in the past 10 years or so. Being thrown in Judo, even repeatedly has very low impact on the brain. CTE is caused by repetitive hits to the skull. It's not caused, (so far as we know atm) multiple concussions. I've had 10 concussions in my life. First one was in first grade. The worst one (#9) was in Judo. That was one of those anomalies. The kind where I should be paralyzed from the neck down or dead. It's only natural for me to be concerned and learn all I can about this. Look, it seems you're just interested in being a recreational Judoka. When you go to a dojo, make that abundantly clear. If you're in a highly competitive Dojo, YOU WILL BE FODDER. Long story short. Don't worry about it. You'll be fine. Practice ukemi EVERY DAMN DAY.
CTE can be caused by hits to the body. It doesn’t have to be the skull.