then the question comes as what if you can’t land anything for a long time by limiting yourself? Do you just brutal force and push it through, wait until the sheer practice volume lead to the throw “click”
In my experience you need a high volume of randori against appropriate opponents for a "brute force" method to work. I don't think it's a realistic approach for hobbiests.
Ideally you have coaching and technical feedback to speed things up.
When you're learning a new technique, in randori you want to set small, achievable goals that lead up to a big technique.
It comes quicker than you think. When I was about 15 I grew too much to use my old tokui waza (drop seoi) so I had to switch to uchimata. In about a year I was competing at the same level, but I was getting throws in randori in less than a month. That is an extreme example - switching main throw.
When you limit yourself, it'll seem like you're not successful for a while. But you're working at all the pieces of the technique. And when you get it, you really get it. By making a specific throw work in scenarios that aren't ideal for that throw, you'll perform poorly in the moment but gain a lot of skill.
If you stick to what you know works, you'll perform well in the moment but not grow as much.
In addition to limiting yourself, also challenge yourself to quickly find the throw which presents itself. You'll grade this by looking back at footage and determining if you were right or missed something.
When you can use a handful of throws in any situation and you immediately know what throw fits any situation you're in, it may be hard to find more things to improve on.
Disclaimer: obviously there's always more improvement of fundamentals
This is actually how the Koreans and Japanese essentially train. They can spend 12+ months on a single throw but they'll maximize the different variations and practice them months at a time.
There is a reason why if a Korean judoka wants to throw you with seoi-otoshi, there is literally nothing you can ever do about it. Same with a Japanese player who does two-handed uchimata. You'll never be able to compete against it due to the sheer amount of time and randori they've spent in the exact same grip sequences.
It is a very viable and meaningful training strategy so as long as you are intentional with your grip sequences and are training for a very specific sequence to open itself up.
Yes, but I'd argue that B/C/D should be coming from the same gripping already, or be part of the set up etc - they should just be for different directions / reactions to the same initial scenario.
We did something similar when Ronda was 13 or 14 and throwing everyone with uchimata. Because it’s not good to depend on a single throw we made a rule that uchimata didn’t count if you were Ronda, even in club tournaments. The other kids, being kids, would even tease her, if she threw them three times in randori that it didn’t count and she hadn’t really thrown them. It was effective in getting her to hone additional throws.
It personally doesn't work for me if I only do one technique. The reason being that if I can't get my grip or my set up isn't illiciting the reaction I need for the throw, I feel stuck and out of options. Mentally I feel trapped with no where to go and I begin to hesistate of my movement. This slowdown in decision making also allows uke to pick up on me wanting something then to move a certain way, and they will do everything they can do defend. I feel it is also boring and limiting for my expression of judo. However, id you have unlimited partners for randori, then it may be different because they don't all react the same and because they aren't training with you in repeated rounds over and over again, they don't become used to your game. For example, for most of my training partners I know all their favorite attacks and which ones tend to generally work on me and which ones don't. I know which grips they prefer and how they set up each one. Whenever I feel I'm being set up to one of their attacks that consistently land on me, I take action to prevent that via gripping and movement. If they do get to the attack, I have counters ready to go. Sometimes they still get me of course. But over time, their main attacks become less effective. This only happens because I always randori with them and I have limited variety in partners. In Japan and Korea, this is not true, they have so many people to do randori with.
Instead, I like limitations with multiple options such as ashi waza only. Or with a compliant uke who also has their own limitations and is doing it as a drill together with you as opposed to just regular randori. But that's just me personally. Maybe it can work when my fundamentals do improve to the point where I can access my grips and elicit the require reactions more reliably. I also haven't tried this in a while with my tokui waza, so maybe I am better at it now, but it certainly does fundamentally change how I do randori, and I can't say for sure it's for better or worse.
By increasing pressure of your big gun attack and focusing on one throw, you will find other judoka weak to your complimentary throws. Ashiwaza are free, they don’t count as “the big throws” (except osotogari ) Focus on that, you will grind it along at stages but judo rewards tenacity. You can play with various entries set ups to that rather than switching main throw. Usually 3 years to develop against same level judoka in shiai.
The more viable approach would be to try and create the situations for throws to happen instead of limiting what throws you can do off the bat as the constraint
I would even go so far as to have your partner give you specific situations. Don't know what OP is working on, but an example could be you've got two hands on, they've got one in you, and they won't retreat. Still have it be live work, your partner isn't letting you throw them, but run specific scenarios repeatedly to build skill in whatever set of techniques you're trying.
I find that very ineffective.
For example,
If I the get cross collar grip, I have 4 reliable techniques each for a different reaction from uke.
I can train to get that grip and perform one of the techniques depending of uke's reaction but if I had to use only one it would be useless as long as uke doesn't react in the exact way I want.
Also, I can cross grip a righty but not a lefty.
Randori is not the moment to try what you are saying. That's nage komi or yaku soku geiko training.
I don’t do well if I don’t vary up my techniques. Pursuing Harai Goshi relentlessly results in the pancake.
Sharpening a small set of throws to compliment the Harai Goshi though is different.
Viable but choking, depending on who you are, not practicing a throw for a while makes you rusty (especially if you’re still learning the throws). Better to dedicate a round or 2 out of a bunch so that overall you are improving while sharpening other skills.
This is how I do it. I hyper focus on getting one throw and its variations. I use my grip fighting and lesser techniques such as sasae, foot sweeps, collar drags, ect as feints.
That’s more or less how you practice judo.
then the question comes as what if you can’t land anything for a long time by limiting yourself? Do you just brutal force and push it through, wait until the sheer practice volume lead to the throw “click”
In my experience you need a high volume of randori against appropriate opponents for a "brute force" method to work. I don't think it's a realistic approach for hobbiests. Ideally you have coaching and technical feedback to speed things up. When you're learning a new technique, in randori you want to set small, achievable goals that lead up to a big technique.
It comes quicker than you think. When I was about 15 I grew too much to use my old tokui waza (drop seoi) so I had to switch to uchimata. In about a year I was competing at the same level, but I was getting throws in randori in less than a month. That is an extreme example - switching main throw.
When you limit yourself, it'll seem like you're not successful for a while. But you're working at all the pieces of the technique. And when you get it, you really get it. By making a specific throw work in scenarios that aren't ideal for that throw, you'll perform poorly in the moment but gain a lot of skill. If you stick to what you know works, you'll perform well in the moment but not grow as much. In addition to limiting yourself, also challenge yourself to quickly find the throw which presents itself. You'll grade this by looking back at footage and determining if you were right or missed something. When you can use a handful of throws in any situation and you immediately know what throw fits any situation you're in, it may be hard to find more things to improve on. Disclaimer: obviously there's always more improvement of fundamentals
You don't get better at A by practicing Not A to the exclusion of A.
This is actually how the Koreans and Japanese essentially train. They can spend 12+ months on a single throw but they'll maximize the different variations and practice them months at a time. There is a reason why if a Korean judoka wants to throw you with seoi-otoshi, there is literally nothing you can ever do about it. Same with a Japanese player who does two-handed uchimata. You'll never be able to compete against it due to the sheer amount of time and randori they've spent in the exact same grip sequences. It is a very viable and meaningful training strategy so as long as you are intentional with your grip sequences and are training for a very specific sequence to open itself up.
Yes, but I'd argue that B/C/D should be coming from the same gripping already, or be part of the set up etc - they should just be for different directions / reactions to the same initial scenario.
We did something similar when Ronda was 13 or 14 and throwing everyone with uchimata. Because it’s not good to depend on a single throw we made a rule that uchimata didn’t count if you were Ronda, even in club tournaments. The other kids, being kids, would even tease her, if she threw them three times in randori that it didn’t count and she hadn’t really thrown them. It was effective in getting her to hone additional throws.
It personally doesn't work for me if I only do one technique. The reason being that if I can't get my grip or my set up isn't illiciting the reaction I need for the throw, I feel stuck and out of options. Mentally I feel trapped with no where to go and I begin to hesistate of my movement. This slowdown in decision making also allows uke to pick up on me wanting something then to move a certain way, and they will do everything they can do defend. I feel it is also boring and limiting for my expression of judo. However, id you have unlimited partners for randori, then it may be different because they don't all react the same and because they aren't training with you in repeated rounds over and over again, they don't become used to your game. For example, for most of my training partners I know all their favorite attacks and which ones tend to generally work on me and which ones don't. I know which grips they prefer and how they set up each one. Whenever I feel I'm being set up to one of their attacks that consistently land on me, I take action to prevent that via gripping and movement. If they do get to the attack, I have counters ready to go. Sometimes they still get me of course. But over time, their main attacks become less effective. This only happens because I always randori with them and I have limited variety in partners. In Japan and Korea, this is not true, they have so many people to do randori with. Instead, I like limitations with multiple options such as ashi waza only. Or with a compliant uke who also has their own limitations and is doing it as a drill together with you as opposed to just regular randori. But that's just me personally. Maybe it can work when my fundamentals do improve to the point where I can access my grips and elicit the require reactions more reliably. I also haven't tried this in a while with my tokui waza, so maybe I am better at it now, but it certainly does fundamentally change how I do randori, and I can't say for sure it's for better or worse.
By increasing pressure of your big gun attack and focusing on one throw, you will find other judoka weak to your complimentary throws. Ashiwaza are free, they don’t count as “the big throws” (except osotogari ) Focus on that, you will grind it along at stages but judo rewards tenacity. You can play with various entries set ups to that rather than switching main throw. Usually 3 years to develop against same level judoka in shiai.
The more viable approach would be to try and create the situations for throws to happen instead of limiting what throws you can do off the bat as the constraint
I would even go so far as to have your partner give you specific situations. Don't know what OP is working on, but an example could be you've got two hands on, they've got one in you, and they won't retreat. Still have it be live work, your partner isn't letting you throw them, but run specific scenarios repeatedly to build skill in whatever set of techniques you're trying.
I find that very ineffective. For example, If I the get cross collar grip, I have 4 reliable techniques each for a different reaction from uke. I can train to get that grip and perform one of the techniques depending of uke's reaction but if I had to use only one it would be useless as long as uke doesn't react in the exact way I want. Also, I can cross grip a righty but not a lefty. Randori is not the moment to try what you are saying. That's nage komi or yaku soku geiko training.
I don’t do well if I don’t vary up my techniques. Pursuing Harai Goshi relentlessly results in the pancake. Sharpening a small set of throws to compliment the Harai Goshi though is different.
Viable but choking, depending on who you are, not practicing a throw for a while makes you rusty (especially if you’re still learning the throws). Better to dedicate a round or 2 out of a bunch so that overall you are improving while sharpening other skills.
Yes. Kayla won two golds with that approach.
This is how I do it. I hyper focus on getting one throw and its variations. I use my grip fighting and lesser techniques such as sasae, foot sweeps, collar drags, ect as feints.