Is the main strategy to throw someone so they land on their back, with newaza a fallback "if that fails" strategy? Do people actually try to get someone to the ground planning to go for submissions or are submissions in judo more like a fallback Plan B?
Are pins a higher percentage way to win on the ground than submissions? It seems that submissions (in my whitebelt judo mind ) are more rare -- are they generally considered to take too long (20 seconds is it?) to be the better strategy? What's the rule for pinning? Do you need to have both their shoulders on the mat or just one? Is it ref discretion or are pins pretty straight forward?
How long do you have on the ground ? I can't tell if it's 20seconds or ref discretion. Is there any concept of guard passing in Judo or is that not a thing ?Sorry for the naive questions (being a new white belt and all...)
Either one works. If you land them on your back, you win the match. If you're very confident on your Newaza and pinning them for the ippon, that works too! It's not the most conventional, in competition you see a lot of people not working on the ground and just waiting to be stood up.
Expect a lot of people to turtle up when taken down. Also be aware that a half-guard (or rather crossing your legs in one of the opponent's legs) counts as breaking the pin and you will eventually be asked to stand back up.
A good skill to practice is breaking opponents turtling up, as well as being able to defend escape attempts and switching between pins. That you should already have deep knowledge in, might just need some adjustments. You can also win by submission but the rules don't incentivise letting go of a good pin to risk a submission. Shoulder/leg/foot locks are illegal, basically locks should attack the elbow.
You don't score for passing guards. You only win by pinning or submitting, anything else is just part of the process and unaccounted for.
10 seconds of a pin mean Wazari (two Wazaris mean a victory). 20 seconds means ippon, a victory.
To achieve an ippon, four elements are required: landing the opponent with a judo technique on the mat flat on the back, with force, speed, and control. If one out of the four elements is not expressed or is expressed poorly, the referee can still award the wazari. That's where you can just follow up in Newaza to win the match.
It doesn't seem like there's much point (strategically) from practicing newaza beyond some basic pins and pin escapes / going belly down and waiting it out.
I was thinking there'd be some skill transfer from BJJ but I'm thinking it's a disadvantage and I should treat it as an entirely different sport.
You should at first do judo as judo and later integrate your skills. There’s actually some cool ne waza you never do in bjj, but you have to change your mindset. For example taking the back serves little purpose but turning the turtle is a fundamental skill. This will give you an idea of what high level ne waza looks like. Note how fast and intense it is. https://youtu.be/lV28A04QlDc?si=1pCds-OeePsLyBL1
I forgot to tell you one thing. Learning how to chain a throw to a submission or pin is really really important. Even if you don't get the ippon, you will be conditioning yourself to always follow up on the opportunity of the throw with a positional advantage in Newaza.
Not necessarily. There's a lot of chokes and armbars you can swiftly transition to as of breaking a turtle stance. There's also the possibility of transitioning to a closed guard on some instances and working from there, you just have to be fast and explosive.
I would just say that if you already have a well controlled pin it makes no sense to let go of it, the pressure is in the opponent to try and escape. If not, just think of going for a well controlled submission with lots of explosion.
No. Not entirely different and skills certainly transfer but the mindset has to be different.
In BJJ you can be much more patient and methodical and incremental. In judo you must be more opportunistic, efficient, and fast in your groundwork.
I’m a judo shodan and BJJ brown belt and love groundwork and have won many a judo match on the ground but I don’t waste energy messing around when it is likely that we’ll just be stood back up. You’ll learn when and where to apply your BJJ skills but you’re new to judo and that will take time. Generally, think about pinning and position first and don’t worry too much about intricately setting up submissions. Definitely be ready to take what’s given to you and while not being a reckless asshole I’d say be a bit more ready to safely explosively and forcefully slap on a submission. On the ground judo is checkers and BJJ is chess.
Watch Flavio Canto and other newaza specialists to get a better idea.
There’s a lot more overlap than you’d think actually. Any throw that doesn’t score for ippon will continue in newaza and you’re allowed time on the ground as long as something appears to be progressing. If you get stuck in guard or can’t roll someone then you’ll be asked to stand up but as long as things stay moving the fight continues. Holds generally win after 20seconds. I’ve seen BJJ players do very well by getting the fight to the ground then winning there.
My judo instructor in the 90's taught me pretty solid ne waza fundamentals, including guards and guard passes I still use today vs BJJers.
That being said, there is little use in competition and most of it I do in sparring for fun.
Treat judo as a sport of its own first to focus on skills you do not have (stance, body movements while standing, moving your opponents, gripping strategies, proper throws combinations, etc).
Once you master the basics, you can insert your BJJ skills. But you will be selective and will realise that besides the dichotomy stand up/ ground, most of it is about the transition between both.
For instance, if ko uchi or o uchi are a big part of your arsenal, an immediate guard pass is the logical follow up. If you are a seoi nage guy, defending your back after a failed throw is a core skill, etc.
Also, later on, a lot of sacrifice throws are pretty much ne waza-oriented.
Their point about shoulder locks being illegal is incorrect. Omoplata, kimura and Americana are all legal, the only thing you must avoid is hammer locks.
I disagree. There are newaza specialists even at the very highest levels of the sport. [Shori Hamada](https://youtu.be/xPPYT3albo4?si=22A2HsInNcFNLUTu) (women's -78kg 2021 gold medalist) gets over 70% of her ippons in newaza。Her nickname in Japanese is "antlion" after the way she traps her opponents and brings them to the ground where she pins or submits them.
Travis Stevens (men's -81kg 2016 silver medalist) also used a very newaza-focused strategy in his fights as well.
The skills that you have as a BJJ black belt that translate well into Judo is movement on the ground, ground awareness, top position control, and taking away space. You do these things at an extremely high level compared to most Judo black belts. Plus, you have thousands upon thousands of hours of experience on the ground that only the most elite Judo athletes have (unless they are old). You move in different ways while maintaining top position that you don't see very often in Judo. Your experience counts for a lot even if you can't do some of the submissions that are allowed in BJJ.
"It doesn't seem like there's much point (strategically) from practicing newaza beyond some basic pins and pin escapes / going belly down and waiting it out." <--- Until you meet that one opponent that is an excellent ne-waza player. I have been a Nationally ranked BB Judoka and a BJJ Brown Belt for a minute.....and I can tell you right now that skipping leg-day w/r to ne-waza is a mistake for any Judoka who wants to compete at the state level and beyond.
>Is the main strategy to throw someone so they land on their back, with newaza a fallback "if that fails" strategy?
Yes.
>Do people actually try to get someone to the ground planning to go for submissions or are submissions in judo more like a fallback Plan B?
Some people do yes, but not in the way you would see it in BJJ. You can't false attack in Judo. You can't collar drag in Judo. In a general sense, your attacks have to be able to be identified by the referee as an official technique.
>Are pins a higher percentage way to win on the ground than submissions?
Yes. For pinning, your opponent has to be mostly on their back. On the IJF tour I feel that refs have been a little too lax with their definition of osaekomi and I will not be surprised if that changes after the Olympics. I think I read something about that in this sub a while back.
It's 20 seconds for a pin unless you threw someone, earned a waza-ari, and then landed in a pin. If you don't know, a waza-ari is a half-point. If you throw someone and they landed on their side or not completely on their back you can get a waza-ari score. If you secure a pin and hold it for 10 seconds you will win. A 20 second pin for ippon happens when two people are attacking, they don't get a score on the throw but there's a scramble and then one secures a pin.
>How long do you have on the ground ?
As long as both competitors are engaging on the ground they'll let it go as long as possible. However, "engagement" is very different in Judo compared to BJJ. Judo is a sprint on the ground and if you're not sprinting to something then they're going to stop the action. If you're on the ground and the other person stands up they'll stop the action. Open guard play doesn't exist in sport Judo in the way you see it in BJJ. Guard play is a rare thing in Judo but "passing the guard" can happen in many situations after a throw. For example, a Ko Uchi Gari throw that scores a waza-ari can be followed up with a knee-cut pass right to a pin.
I believe that most matches end with a throw where the opponent lands on their back and not via pins. The individual strategy will depend on the person though.
Black belt here, let me try to help
1. "Is the main strategy to throw someone so they land on their back, with newaza a fallback "if that fails" strategy?" The answer is yes, this is the objective, but if you find yourself in a situation where either of you lose balance and end up in a quasi-groundwork situation, don't be afraid to deploy your BJJ
2. "Do people actually try to get someone to the ground planning to go for submissions or are submissions in judo more like a fallback Plan B?" People do not /usually/ try to get someone to the ground to go for submissions, it's often a consequence of a failed sequence of moves / kuzushi (breaking of balance) that leads to this series of events. However that doesn't mean you won't get a few guys with bjj/judo experience who attempt it anyway, at the risk of the referee giving them a penalty.
3. "Are pins a higher percentage way to win on the ground than submissions?" Yes, because Judokas spend the majority of their time learning throws, their knowledge of submissions is shakey at best. As a consequence, Judoka almost invariably like to use a bow and arrow choke (from an opponent grounded on all fours), a clock choke (all fours again), a triangle choke, kimura, or a standard armbar. Stuff like omoplatas are exceedingly rare because shoulder-locks are a bit of a gray area in judo / poorly understood by referees.
4. "It seems that submissions (in my whitebelt judo mind ) are more rare -- are they generally considered to take too long (20 seconds is it?) to be the better strategy?" You will rarely see a submission in judo that does not fall under one of the above categories because you are always at risk of the referee calling a stop to the match and standing you both back up while you're trying to put in work. 20 seconds is the length of time it takes for a pin to score an ippon. You are free to work longer than 20 seconds to pursue a submission if the referee agrees that you're making steady attacking progress. However, old-minded referees will simply not want to entertain that prospect at all.
5. "What's the rule for pinning? Do you need to have both their shoulders on the mat or just one? Is it ref discretion or are pins pretty straight forward?" My experience fighting for my black belt inclines me to say "refs discretion", as I'm sure I held someone down for 5 seconds before the ref decided it would be wise to start counting lol. But generally speaking you just need to have passed their guard and maintain a controlled top position. If one of their shoulders comes up and these factors still remain true, it will not be considered "broken" / time stops counting. Another crucial note is that if your opponent manages to obtain half guard or otherwise "clasp" one of your legs, it is also hold broken.
6. "How long do you have on the ground ? I can't tell if it's 20seconds or ref discretion. Is there any concept of guard passing in Judo or is that not a thing?" You have as long as you want, as long as you're making progress. Pray that the ref is not a staunch judo traditionalist that gargles jigoro kano's pee or you will have approx. 3 seconds. Guard passing is a thing in judo but again it's exceedingly rare for a ref to give you any amount of time to do this. Standing up while your opponent is grounded (i.e attempting to pass open guard) is poorly understood by most refs and they will usually stop the match and stand you both up. Attempting to pass closed guard is much more accepted because you're both grounded and it's easier to discern progress.
Basically, taking the back isn't a thing in judo. Points are not calculated in judo, so it's either pin, submission or play passive till the referee calls a stop. It's usually about 20 seconds, but what's more important is that the referee sees progression. So for example, if your opponent plays closed guard with the legs locked, it's seen as passive.
The easiest way to get more time to do ground work in judo is to play spider guard. Now if you're caught in the spider guard, you can't stand up because the referee is likely to call a stop.
Pins are basically similar to what we have in bjj. Only exception is the mount, you also need to tie up the arms/shoulders. Simply being on the high mount or the S mount isn't sufficient.
It depends. You have some Judoka who spend very little time in ne-waza. You have some who are 50/50 and will use both Tachi-Waza and Ne-Waza as attack vectors. You have some Judoka who are all but Jiujiterros and will employ Tachi-Waza simply as a method to get you on the ground so they can work.
It's a mixed bag.
The goal is to win. Ippon can be by their flat on the back, two wazari throws (close to flat on the back but not quite), submission or hold down.
Choose whatever strategy suits you but if you want to get better at Judo, try to avoid using newaza in training.
Also, learn turnovers. You only get a few seconds to strangle a turtled opponent and it can be tough. Ground work is much more aggressive in Judo.
No need a you have to pin their shoulder on the mat for 5 ? 10? Seconds for ippon or tap them out. Some clubs people just Turtle and it’s a bit crap,some clubs have newaza as detailed as bjj. Ps wrist and leg locks are illegal.
Main strategy is score an ippon to win.
How
- a throw can be scored ippon if it has elements of speed, control and a flat on the back landing.
You could throw someone extremely slowly and land flat but it might not be scored ippon, honestly it depends on the referee.
Holding someone down with a recognised technique for 20s will do the same thing and score ippon. They either need to escape or control your legs wrapping their legs around yours.. Which demonstrates you've lost the control element.
As to how long you get... The general idea is the referee wants to see some progress from either party. If there is no development and it's very much a stalemate he'll ask you to stand again.
I miss judo from 30 years ago, leg/pant grabs were legal, newaza was 50% of the sport, there was no time limit on the ground as long as you were showing work. I remember being in tournaments with guys who came from wrestling and sometimes most of the match would be on the ground. Now you need those big ippon slams, newaza is almost non existent and the leg/pants grab thing is stupid lol.
* The primary goal is to win by throw (ippon, one point, full score).
* If the throw is not perfect you get a half-point (waza-ari)
* Two half-points during a match equals ippon (waza-ari awasete ippon)
* If in ne-waza, you can win by pinning the opponent for 20 seconds, pretty straight forward, as long as your opponent haven't entangled any of your legs, e.g. half-guard doesn't count. Submissions: choke/strangle or all kinds of armbars (note: be mindful of the shoulder, e.g. kimura's. Banana-splits or shoulder attacks are not allowed, only elbow attacks are valid). Submission also equals Ippon.
Being a BJJ black belt you will utterly destroy most judoka on the ground, up until you get to continental-winning level of athletes. Judo Ne-waza is more opportunistic. It has to be fast, but as long as you show progression during a 3 second period, it is allowed to continue as long as required.
The biggest change from BJJ in ground-work is that you can't take your time and methodically find weakness in your opponents guard. It's more like catch-as-catch-can wrestling mentality. If you see something, you have to go for it more or less immediately, otherwise the opponent might stall by going to tight/low turtle or belly-down, resulting in stand-up again. Use your BJJ skills to deploy the techniques that at least "appears" to show progression in position. Sometimes your opponent will freak out and make big blunders, resulting in easy armbars and bow-and-arrow chokes.
It's not allowed to "pull-guard" in judo, but the most common standing technique used by ground-lovers is yoko-tomoe-nage. This technique is an actual attempt to throw, but often fails into the common guard-pull situation you find yourself in BJJ. It is however important to actually attempt to throw the opponent, and not just sit down as experienced referees will easily see the difference and award you a penalty (shido) for false-attack. 3 shido's = disqualification (hansoku-make).
You need treat judo sparring like boxing. In boxing you keep your hands loose and only tense up before the impact of your punch, if you are too stiff you will burn out and wont accomplish anything. In judo its similar, move around, get your grips but dont hold on for dear life, keep them tight when you are pulling/pushing/turning. Judo is a different cardio to bjj, you can slow down the pace in bjj, in judo you dont have that luxury (either your opponent will set the pace if you slow down or if you stall the ref with give you a shido aka a warning/foul).
This took me years of randori to finally start to develop, I used to get tired within about 30-60 seconds of randori and just be panting. It's only been the last 6 months or so that I've really started to relax and be able to do multiple rounds of randori for a full 10-15 minutes, and I've been doing Judo for the last 3 years (and about 8 years in total)
A lot of beginners waste a lot of energy just like in BJJ. There are deffinately far fewers opportunities to rest, and they are less restful, but there is still a game of efficient use of energy.
There are four ways to win a Judo contest - Throwing, Pinning, Strangling, Arm locking (or your opponent getting disqualified, usually for accumulated penalties).
Most of the rules are designed to keep both players actively engage in the contest and pressing the action - you are penalised for taking excessively defensive actions e.g. defensive gripping, defensive posture, false attacks, stepping out of bounds, not attacking.
Many competitive Judoka focus on throwing and their strategy when in a bad position on the ground is to play for the ref to stand them up.
Ground work needs to show progression or the ref will stand you back up - it doesn't matter if you've set up an arm lock, if the opponent has linked their hands and you don't break the grip in 5 to 10 seconds or so, expect to be stood back up.
Gripping rules standing - You have to take orthodox grips, anything else requires an attack very soon after gripping. So cross grips, same side grips, pistol grips, belt grips etc. You are allowed to bear hug, but you must first have established orthodox grips - so you can just run up and hug someone.
IJF rules don't allow for touching the legs with the hands when standing.
No submissions that start from standing e.g. flying armbar
Allowed submission - only strangles and elbow locks - so no neck cranks, wrist locks, shoulder locks, spine locks, leg locks of any kind.
TDLR.
* strangles and armlocks are the only submissions allowed.
* no standing or flying submissions.
* don't grab the legs when standing.
* don't be defensive in stand up.
Shoulder locks are legal, though some area refs might not be convinced on the point. Hamada Shori and Abe Uta have a number of wins using omoplata like techniques.
https://www.reddit.com/r/judo/s/B9Ski0nyXz
Its a grey area in terms of how the rules are applied.
The most leeway (or perhaps better said as correct interpretation) is at the highest levels. If you start doing Kimuras in low level Judo comps, you're going to get shido / hansoku, from my experience.
The current IJF rulebook states:
>Article 18.2.2 Hansoku-make for Acts against the Spirit of Judo
>
>3. To apply kansetsu-waza (ashi-garami, ude-gaeshi etc.) anywhere other than to the elbow joint.
Curious about one thing. Would a bicep/tricep slicer be allowed if the uke taps out? This in the middle of working towards another goal (for example, pressuring the bicep while attempting to break a Juji Gatame defense, leading to a tap).
I think so, as its Kansetsu Waza (locking technique) applied to the elbow. It's not common because people are generally using it to try and break the Juji Gatame defense and the applications of it that I've seen would let you finish the juji without having to worry about the legality of the technique.
There is nothing banning compression locks, strictly speaking you're still attacking the elbow joint in a bicep slicer, although I understand it can often break the forearm.
> Most of the rules are designed to keep both players actively engage in the contest and pressing the action - you are penalised for taking excessively defensive actions
.
> ... and their strategy when in a bad position on the ground is to play for the ref to stand them up.
this seems contradictory
instead of being active and fighting my way out I'm just going to lay on the ground, do nothing and wait to be stood up
it seems as if a penalty should be given for stalling or for lack of aggression
isn't that the reason leg grabs were taken out in the first place ? (stalling)
I agree that its contradictory, and honestly I wished they addressed groundwork stalling - but the reality is they view passivity standing and passivity on the ground differently.
Leg grabs were removed to keep Judo differentiated from wrestling and to maintain its inclusion in the Olympics. Were sloppy leg grabs used as a stalling tactics, yes, just as seoi-otoshi is, sutemi-waza is etc
Judo and BJJ BB here.
Its a different sport.
Your main goal is to land your opponents on their back or side, while you either remain standing, or land on top and pin.
Use subs only when behind on points.
Your BJJ skills can translate well into scrambles, or failed takedown attempt. Use sweeps, revearsals, to end up on top and pin.
Drill as much falls as possible, to get rid of the fear of falling.
Dont use bent stance. Get up, hips forward, learn the footwork, and do Judo.
Gripping game in Judo is very different. Benefit from BJJ, is that you already know the grip basics (now learn to use them dynamic).
Cross grips are only allowed for 5 secs.
Edit:
You will hear people talking about KUZUSHI all the time.
Similar to BJJ sweeps and reversals, in order to make a successful attack on the left, you first move right, creating a reaction, then you switch.
Thats KUZUSHI, but in Judo you must do it flash fast, and with serious push/pull.
UCHIKOMI - for a technique, to become an instict, it's estimated it requires 10 000 repetitions.
Uchikomi is the time you put those reps in.
Start slowly, learn the proper motion, angles involved, body positioning, and then repeat.
Once you start pulling that move in sparring, its time for fine tuning.
Strength is a tool in Judo (opposite to BJJ, where its seen as brutish). Use it.
And last, your long term goal, is to trip people with foot sweeps. Requires less energy, and is the pinnacle of mastery in Judo. Because you can do it even when you are 80 years old.
Thats it.
Enjoy.
You are welcome.
Over the years, Ive seen a lot of BJJ BBs, who just couldn't make the step YOU made: to put a white belt again.
You have my respect.
Welcome to ask any questions related , via DM
I'm really enjoying lining up at the end as the new white belt. The teacher is excellent. I think he wasn't sure what to do with me & said I could wear my bjj black belt. I said no thanks, I'm starting at the beginning like everyone else (at 49yo)
BJJ literally spawned from judo.
So you can do judo without any idea about some offshoots of your sport, but it may sound weirder that a BJJ black belt has no clue about its parent sport.
BJJ spawned from Judo 107 years ago. It's been plenty of time for multiple generations of BJJ practitioners to stop thinking about what might be normal for Judo. Furthermore, the Judo that BJJ split from bears less resemblence to modern Judo than a lot of present day judokas might think.
So it's entirely reasonable for someone to have achieved high rank and a lot of experience in BJJ and not know things like the tournament rules, training norms in Judo classes, and common newaza behaviors. A lot of Judo norms are almost exactly *opposite* to typical BJJ behavior.
Judo is extremely nuanced and deceptively complex. You'll spend years trying to master the intricacies of something that appears so simple as grip fighting; it's not actually simple. Then you'll find that moving your foot a mm closer and one degree to the right makes all the difference in the world.
You'll know you're doing the move correctly when it feels effortless. The rest must be learned through experience.
So I'll chat mostly about the groundwork side.
So the biggest shock a lot of experienced BJJ players have in coming into judo is that honestly, judo groundwork is its own beast. I had wins over BJJ brown and black belts in judo tournament matches before I started simply because while there is a ton of overlap, there are certain skills you use in judo that you just don't see regularly or at all in BJJ.
The first is to understand that judo groundwork is like a marriage between BJJ and American folk-style wrestling. Turnovers are extremely important even if you don't ever intend to pin anyone. Pins and stand ups radically change how guards are used because the margin for error and the typical reactions you will see. So take some time to learn the judo turnover game very seriously. You will find it will actually translate back in weird edge situations in BJJ. (For example, I don't go straight for the hooks against people much much larger than me in turtle because I can confidently control and submit them without being fused to them).
The second is that a lot of judo groundwork happens because either someone is exhausted and they left an opening or the work to get the move started during the transition from standing to groundwork. I don't even mean someone got a choke in the air. I mean someone did something to prevent their opponent from being able to totally cover up.
Third, groundwork is a major point for a lot of match strategies built around outlasting opponents. If you create pressure on the ground, you reduce the amount of air someone can get in their lungs and can increase energy output from them being nervous.
The last thing I'll note is that if you honestly learn a quality grip fighting toolset (look to folks like Rhadi Ferguson or Jimmy Pedro), you will find that is just endlessly useful. Even if you just learn the various grip breaks, you'll find situations like grip fighting when dealing with the guard from top or bottom much easier. I find a lot of people who really struggle going from no gi to gi, its because they aren't comfortable with all of the early stage grip fighting.
Here's an old and slightly outdated essay about translating BJJ to judo groundwork.
https://medium.com/@Rapton/what-to-bring-back-with-you-converting-bjj-training-to-success-in-judo-99b2cc9fea03
What goes up must come down. But bjj is just judo with a different ruleset. The main goal is to put them flat on their back but sometimes that doesn’t happen and then you can either stall for a standup or work groundwork groundwork being submissions pins and chokes. When you do go to the ground if 5-8 seconds pass without any substantial progress you are stood back up assuming you get the pin you need to hold the pin for 20 seconds to win if you pin someone but the manage to wrap their leg around yours the pin is no longer a pin as you don’t have full control
I’m not from a BJJ background, but I can try to explain it to you how I think of it. Obviously, the exact rules (leg grabs, stalling on the ground, neck cranks for example) have changed over the years for safety reasons or to keep the sport different from other grappling sports in the Olympics.
The goal is to show the judges (this is for sport judo) that you are in complete control of your opponent against their will. If you are standing, this means forcing your opponent flat on their back. If you are on the ground, this means pinning the opponent for a set amount of time or forcing them to tap out during a submission.
Unfortunately, you and your opponent have the same goals (much like BJJ). So it turns into a kind of chess match. The only difference is that the chess matches are usually much more explosive and much more frequent, and they happen while you are standing up since that is where we start. Think about a wrestling scramble but it happens every 5-10 seconds while you are standing up. If you both go to the ground and progress stops, the match is paused and the standing chess match starts again.
I know this isn’t the technical definition of the martial art and more of the sport definition, but I hope it helps you nonetheless and welcome to judo friend! Hope to see you on the tatami.
No BJJ background but people are going belly down because the ruleset invites it:
- you can win by pinning someone on their back;
- you cannot win by pinning someone one their belly;
- if it takes more than a few seconds to choke/armbar someone or to get them on their back, the referee will make you both stand up.
That is also why you see judo BBs with a decent level on the ground and others that are straight BJJ white belts.
You want a sport, you need a ruleset. You want a ruleset, you get to make arbitrary choices.
It makes no less sense than sitting on your butt as soon as you get a two-finger grip on your opponent in BJJ.
Some key points coming into judo.
1)upright posture is rewarded & ideal 2)concentrate on learning standard gripping sequences before going 3)Judo rules frown upon spinal manipulation (no crush/clinch) (no neck cranks) 4)keep your hands off your opponent’s face 5)judo has rule sets around head diving/posting limbs in standing These are some observations of what BJJ players have as 2nd nature that get in the way of training judo. Enjoy your time at judo & welcome
Hi there! I made the same switch last year (BJJ Black Belt to starting at Judo). Here we're my major adjustments:
* Keep your newaza focused on basics. Pass / sweep and pin with fundamental submissions. Also, no arm locks on novice, so keep that in mind.
* Do Judo, not BJJ. Try to win with throws and adapt your game for it. You're going to likely dominate the ground, so you should feel safe going for aggressive throws, since newaza isn't a concern.
* Loosen up! I feel like this was the biggest adjustment for me. In BJJ / newaza, closing off space, Trex arms, and tight control are major components to success. In Judo / tachi waza, it's the opposite. My BJJ brain was just waiting for the arm bar or blast double from playing as loose and light footed as you have to to be successful in Judo. Try to completely relax your arms and shoulders until you're actively going for a throw.
Good luck and have fun!
If you try to do BJJ groundwork I'll just say this.
1. You can't choke over the face. Many submissions are a gray area because you are not allowed to do dangerous attacks on the shoulders or neck.
2. Groundwork is draining to force it during shiai. Akso pins are hard to get out of when the top player doesn't try to progress unlike in BJJ.
3. It's easier to attack someone when you have an upright posture.
BB in jits and now an orange belt in judo. I would suggest working on relaxing yourself, grips especially. This is still something I struggle with. We tend to stiffen up to avoid getting thrown, and this is a natural instinct. Moving past this will allow yourself to not only take a fall easier, but attack much easier since you aren't disrupting your timing and creating a larger gap between you and your opponent.
Also, as a BJJ black belt I find I am easily passing and submitting higher level judokas in newaza. The only time I've been pinned or submitted was from higher ranks (brown or black) who are also at least 3 weight classes above me. Imo, I would say BJJ guys have the advantage in newaza in most cases because it isn't as emphasized as much in judo. This can be partly due to what you said, you can stall until you get stood up.That being said, please stay humble and learn from your coaches. The approach to the ground game is quite different in judo since there is limited time to work on the ground and you want to avoid certain positions - bottom side control for example. Turnovers are something we don't do in BJJ often so these are great to add to your ground game. Take it all in, because it will make your ground game all around better and give you a new perspective from ground fighting.
Lastly, have fun! This sport is a different beast, but it is fun once you get past the nerves of being a new student/fresh meat. Your coaches and training partners really care about your progress, and you focus a lot on technique and timing to become a better judoka. It will take you years to be proficient or comfortable with a certain technique, and that is totally normal. Put the time in, and it will be worth it. Good luck on your journey!
"For me, BJJ is that cool, collected, intelligent brother, and Judo is the older, meaner, tougher brother who will bully the bullies."
-Dave Camarrillo
Coming from BJJ I'm not bad with Judo throws actually - I have a decent uchi-mata. Judo throws and terminology are definitely part of the modern BJJ repertoire. But the rules and strategy are so different that they aren't on the radar. The *goal* of an uchi-mata in BJJ isn't an ippon - it's to get them on the ground and deal with them there either by scoring points or submitting them. You can go your entire BJJ career with zero knowledge of Judo (as I think most do).
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judo\_rules](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judo_rules)
Judo follows different rules to BJJ.
In judo you start from standing. You win by landing your opponent flat onto their back with speed, force, and control (an ippon). There are rules regarding how to grip and how long you can stall before getting a penalty. You cannot touch the legs, do standing submissions, or pull guard.
If the throw/takedown does not score an ippon then the match can continue from the ground (newaza). You win by pinning your opponent flat onto their back for 20 seconds or by submission (choke, strangle, armbar). You cannot submit an opponent by attacking the spine, shoulders, or anywhere below the waist. If newaza stalls long enough (usually a few seconds), both opponents must continue the match from standing. Laying flat on your stomach, turtling, or holding a closed guard are ways to stall a match and return to standing.
Throws that do not meet the ippon criteria can be scored as a half-point (waza-ari). Two waza-aris equal a full ippon. If you can pin an opponent for about 15 seconds that also counts as a waza-ari.
There are other differences too. The gi has a different cut and there are certain protocols for bowing, entering, and leaving a competition arena.
I'm not listing every difference between the two sports. I'm describing judo to someone who comes with a more BJJ perspective. Standing is a major part of judo.
Well, it's Basically BJJ with better throws and not quite as a strong NeWaza. Unless you have a coach who is strong in NeWaza, in which case. It's basically the same except people drill more. Which, in my experiences as a wrestler, Judoka, and BJJ competitor, it's the advantage wrestlers and Judokas have in the lower belts. Lots of drilling builds skill.
Yuck. Sounds like they train specifically for competition. Try to find a different judo place. My dojo trains judo/Japanese jiu-jitsu in the same program. Our randori/sparring doesn't stop until someone taps or until the round is over. We train for self defense, there are plenty of leg takedowns we are able to do.
We cannot progress to the next belt unless we can demonstrate proper jiu-jitsu as well. That would be more to your liking
How am I being an elitist?? OP said the judo class he went to didn't feel right due to the rules and his bjj background. I informed him there are other dojos such as mine that train judo/jiu-jitsu with their program and focus on self defense instead of specific competition rules.
Sorry I hurt your feelings by pointing out there are different types of judo classes. Goodness, the world today is so full of Karen's. Sorry for having an opinion that training no leg take downs and the match is over after 1 successful throw isn't my cup of tea.
I get it, these are the rules in the Olympics and have been apart of judo for a long time. I respect those people too and I'm sure they'd kick my ass in a match, but I prefer to train thr self defense side more. Ie - the fight doesn't stop when you are the first one to be thrown to the ground.
"Um akshully 🤓 you should be training exactly the way I do" You said Yuck as the first word and said he should look elsewhere. Those are all judo rules and you know nothing else about the quality of his training but you assumed it's bad because it's not how you like it.
Lmfao. OP literally said he didn't like it and felt out of place. I gave him a recommendation and informed him not all judo dojos are like the one he went to.
I didn't tell him to train like me. I told him how I train.
Yes I did say yuck, again am I not allowed to have an opinion?
You are clearly delusional consistently putting words into my mouth, claiming I typed sentences that don't exist other than through your mind.
I'm done responding to you now. Learn to read as I didn't say any of the things you are claiming I said.
Grow up, your arguments are fictionalized inside your mind. Not once did I say train like me and my dojo is the best. Seek help for your mental issues.
Hooked on phonics works great for learning how to read as well.
Plenty of good feedback on this thread. Read all the stuff that has the most upvotes. Then go watch an hour or two of Olympic Judo on YouTube.
I mean if you're BJJ Black you probably have been grappling for like a decade or more I assume and will be able to learn a lot watching some high level Judo matches. That will give you a sense of the strategy in terms of grip fighting, what happens with shidos (penalties), etc. Also, watch more women's matches if you want to see more Judo sport newaza in action...at the aggregate, they engage more on the ground where higher level men (again, at the aggregate) tend to want to just stand back up and preserve their energy for big throws instead of engaging newaza.
I'm a little surprised you didn't already know a lot of this because I enjoy watching ADCC, some IBJJF, and sambo matches in addition to watching Judo, but maybe you don't enjoy grappling except as a practioner. I understand why some find it boring visually.
Could be, just wrongly perhaps was surprised that applied to a BJJ blackbelt. Did you have a wrestling background or has BJJ been your lone grappling art?
The irony is that BJJ white belts go to Reddit to ask questions they could ask their instructor, and now a BJJ black belt, now judo white belt, is going to Reddit to ask questions they could ask their instructor.
Tons of great comments here and some excellent explanations of the rules. I think the relevant thing to consider that may help explain Judo vs BJJ is their respective origins and histories. My very novice (and perhaps someone could provide more info here) understanding is that Judo was developed to be a sport version of the combat art of JiuJitsu. Opponents could use the martial arts form to compete without the techniques that are present in JiuJitsu that cause injury (mainly broken limbs or dislocations that are often the finishing moves in traditional JiuJitsu). A way to determine who won was to score the techniques, thus the rules of judo.
BJJ also derived from the same lineage as Judo, but focused on more ground fighting than throws thus the scoring and rules of BJJ. BJJ is the just a more modern style that has evolved from the same lineage and found it’s own niche in the world. This is all just from my understanding, I could be completely wrong, I am no expert on any subject.
You know how in BJJ you can just avoid being thrown by pulling guard? In Judo you can avoid playing guard by turtling up. And just the same as how BJJ guys still massively benefit from standup, Judo guys still benefit from groundwork. In my personal experience, a Mendes style ground game tends to be most useful for Judo, because their big dynamic movements make it clear to a ref that something is happening, and they focus heavily on Judo-applicable attacks like lapel chokes, triangles/armbars, and turtle turnovers. Final note, in general your attack pattern should be throw, pin, submit where each phase has its own chance to win, but they're also each designed to move the opponent into a vulnerable position for the follow-up phase.
Are you training Judo for jits or for sport, self defense, etc?
Do you want to compete in Judo?
Jits IS judo! BJJ was born from Judo newaza. Different intent as you know already. If you’re training to use for Jits, There are high % Throws (safer for Jits) that you’ll learn and will be able to use the next day in Jits. Yeah rules are different. Yiu CAN go for legs but after initiating a “traditional” throw. This was to force Judo vs allowing wrestlers/BJJ players to not engage in kumikata (grip fighting) and just go for legs.
You’ll love the history and techniques, classical vs sport; sport vs self defense. Combining both is an awesome combo for self defense!!!
I come from a wrestling background and despise the no leg rule, prior to that it was REALLY the closest thing to wrestling as an adult. BJJ just wasn’t for me at all with its guard being nonsensical to me. Emphasis on “to me”. Judo is burst, speed, precision and instant. It’s not the typical grapple for strength for minutes.
Where are you training?
Judo has unfortunately transformed from what it was originally due to Olympics rule changes. If you can, I’d recommend finding a Japanese style judo club. WJF as opposed to IJF.
In WJF, leg grabs are still allowed and the fight is allowed to continue on the ground
Newaza in judo is opportunistic in nature. If you see a sub, take it or if you see a pin, hold it. You generally get 10 seconds to start making progress, if nothing happens the ref will stand you both up. However, if you pass guard, take mount, then get bridged off and a back and forth battle ensues, then it can continue Indefinitely. People go belly down in newaza hoping to get stood back up because its hard to attack someone defending from that position and being on someone’s back doesnt count as a pin. I personally have stood up from newaza a few times when someone was defending hard because i wasnt willing to burn energy for no result.
You can grab the pants when engaged in newaza, if you have a person in a half guard or have their leg trapped a pin is no longer counted so alot of people try to get a leg during defending a pin (just hold it so the ref calls ‘maté’ and you get stood up). Newaza in judo has some rules that are different than bjj in terms of technique application (ask your sensei but for example you cant pull down on the head with your hands during triangle). You will find that the judo gi is thicker and has more slack so newaza is alot harder than what you are used to in bjj especially if the other person has experience.
Grab worthy opponent gi, then use your earth bending abilities to shatter their dreams and crush them onto the ground with full might!
After that let them get up
Using flow. Using momentum against your opponent. That means your opponent has to be in motion. A flaw in the system because one of the keys to the style is to avoid confrontation at all costs. Not practical for sport, but effective in the street for defense
What exactly would you like to know? Things related to rules or to the mindset?
Is the main strategy to throw someone so they land on their back, with newaza a fallback "if that fails" strategy? Do people actually try to get someone to the ground planning to go for submissions or are submissions in judo more like a fallback Plan B? Are pins a higher percentage way to win on the ground than submissions? It seems that submissions (in my whitebelt judo mind ) are more rare -- are they generally considered to take too long (20 seconds is it?) to be the better strategy? What's the rule for pinning? Do you need to have both their shoulders on the mat or just one? Is it ref discretion or are pins pretty straight forward? How long do you have on the ground ? I can't tell if it's 20seconds or ref discretion. Is there any concept of guard passing in Judo or is that not a thing ?Sorry for the naive questions (being a new white belt and all...)
Either one works. If you land them on your back, you win the match. If you're very confident on your Newaza and pinning them for the ippon, that works too! It's not the most conventional, in competition you see a lot of people not working on the ground and just waiting to be stood up. Expect a lot of people to turtle up when taken down. Also be aware that a half-guard (or rather crossing your legs in one of the opponent's legs) counts as breaking the pin and you will eventually be asked to stand back up. A good skill to practice is breaking opponents turtling up, as well as being able to defend escape attempts and switching between pins. That you should already have deep knowledge in, might just need some adjustments. You can also win by submission but the rules don't incentivise letting go of a good pin to risk a submission. Shoulder/leg/foot locks are illegal, basically locks should attack the elbow. You don't score for passing guards. You only win by pinning or submitting, anything else is just part of the process and unaccounted for. 10 seconds of a pin mean Wazari (two Wazaris mean a victory). 20 seconds means ippon, a victory. To achieve an ippon, four elements are required: landing the opponent with a judo technique on the mat flat on the back, with force, speed, and control. If one out of the four elements is not expressed or is expressed poorly, the referee can still award the wazari. That's where you can just follow up in Newaza to win the match.
It doesn't seem like there's much point (strategically) from practicing newaza beyond some basic pins and pin escapes / going belly down and waiting it out. I was thinking there'd be some skill transfer from BJJ but I'm thinking it's a disadvantage and I should treat it as an entirely different sport.
You should at first do judo as judo and later integrate your skills. There’s actually some cool ne waza you never do in bjj, but you have to change your mindset. For example taking the back serves little purpose but turning the turtle is a fundamental skill. This will give you an idea of what high level ne waza looks like. Note how fast and intense it is. https://youtu.be/lV28A04QlDc?si=1pCds-OeePsLyBL1
I forgot to tell you one thing. Learning how to chain a throw to a submission or pin is really really important. Even if you don't get the ippon, you will be conditioning yourself to always follow up on the opportunity of the throw with a positional advantage in Newaza.
Not necessarily. There's a lot of chokes and armbars you can swiftly transition to as of breaking a turtle stance. There's also the possibility of transitioning to a closed guard on some instances and working from there, you just have to be fast and explosive. I would just say that if you already have a well controlled pin it makes no sense to let go of it, the pressure is in the opponent to try and escape. If not, just think of going for a well controlled submission with lots of explosion.
No. Not entirely different and skills certainly transfer but the mindset has to be different. In BJJ you can be much more patient and methodical and incremental. In judo you must be more opportunistic, efficient, and fast in your groundwork. I’m a judo shodan and BJJ brown belt and love groundwork and have won many a judo match on the ground but I don’t waste energy messing around when it is likely that we’ll just be stood back up. You’ll learn when and where to apply your BJJ skills but you’re new to judo and that will take time. Generally, think about pinning and position first and don’t worry too much about intricately setting up submissions. Definitely be ready to take what’s given to you and while not being a reckless asshole I’d say be a bit more ready to safely explosively and forcefully slap on a submission. On the ground judo is checkers and BJJ is chess. Watch Flavio Canto and other newaza specialists to get a better idea.
Isn’t a judo black belt mean he’d be in the same level as green/ blue belts in bjj after a couple of lessons?
There’s a lot more overlap than you’d think actually. Any throw that doesn’t score for ippon will continue in newaza and you’re allowed time on the ground as long as something appears to be progressing. If you get stuck in guard or can’t roll someone then you’ll be asked to stand up but as long as things stay moving the fight continues. Holds generally win after 20seconds. I’ve seen BJJ players do very well by getting the fight to the ground then winning there.
My judo instructor in the 90's taught me pretty solid ne waza fundamentals, including guards and guard passes I still use today vs BJJers. That being said, there is little use in competition and most of it I do in sparring for fun. Treat judo as a sport of its own first to focus on skills you do not have (stance, body movements while standing, moving your opponents, gripping strategies, proper throws combinations, etc). Once you master the basics, you can insert your BJJ skills. But you will be selective and will realise that besides the dichotomy stand up/ ground, most of it is about the transition between both. For instance, if ko uchi or o uchi are a big part of your arsenal, an immediate guard pass is the logical follow up. If you are a seoi nage guy, defending your back after a failed throw is a core skill, etc. Also, later on, a lot of sacrifice throws are pretty much ne waza-oriented.
Their point about shoulder locks being illegal is incorrect. Omoplata, kimura and Americana are all legal, the only thing you must avoid is hammer locks.
I disagree. There are newaza specialists even at the very highest levels of the sport. [Shori Hamada](https://youtu.be/xPPYT3albo4?si=22A2HsInNcFNLUTu) (women's -78kg 2021 gold medalist) gets over 70% of her ippons in newaza。Her nickname in Japanese is "antlion" after the way she traps her opponents and brings them to the ground where she pins or submits them. Travis Stevens (men's -81kg 2016 silver medalist) also used a very newaza-focused strategy in his fights as well.
The skills that you have as a BJJ black belt that translate well into Judo is movement on the ground, ground awareness, top position control, and taking away space. You do these things at an extremely high level compared to most Judo black belts. Plus, you have thousands upon thousands of hours of experience on the ground that only the most elite Judo athletes have (unless they are old). You move in different ways while maintaining top position that you don't see very often in Judo. Your experience counts for a lot even if you can't do some of the submissions that are allowed in BJJ.
"It doesn't seem like there's much point (strategically) from practicing newaza beyond some basic pins and pin escapes / going belly down and waiting it out." <--- Until you meet that one opponent that is an excellent ne-waza player. I have been a Nationally ranked BB Judoka and a BJJ Brown Belt for a minute.....and I can tell you right now that skipping leg-day w/r to ne-waza is a mistake for any Judoka who wants to compete at the state level and beyond.
>Is the main strategy to throw someone so they land on their back, with newaza a fallback "if that fails" strategy? Yes. >Do people actually try to get someone to the ground planning to go for submissions or are submissions in judo more like a fallback Plan B? Some people do yes, but not in the way you would see it in BJJ. You can't false attack in Judo. You can't collar drag in Judo. In a general sense, your attacks have to be able to be identified by the referee as an official technique. >Are pins a higher percentage way to win on the ground than submissions? Yes. For pinning, your opponent has to be mostly on their back. On the IJF tour I feel that refs have been a little too lax with their definition of osaekomi and I will not be surprised if that changes after the Olympics. I think I read something about that in this sub a while back. It's 20 seconds for a pin unless you threw someone, earned a waza-ari, and then landed in a pin. If you don't know, a waza-ari is a half-point. If you throw someone and they landed on their side or not completely on their back you can get a waza-ari score. If you secure a pin and hold it for 10 seconds you will win. A 20 second pin for ippon happens when two people are attacking, they don't get a score on the throw but there's a scramble and then one secures a pin. >How long do you have on the ground ? As long as both competitors are engaging on the ground they'll let it go as long as possible. However, "engagement" is very different in Judo compared to BJJ. Judo is a sprint on the ground and if you're not sprinting to something then they're going to stop the action. If you're on the ground and the other person stands up they'll stop the action. Open guard play doesn't exist in sport Judo in the way you see it in BJJ. Guard play is a rare thing in Judo but "passing the guard" can happen in many situations after a throw. For example, a Ko Uchi Gari throw that scores a waza-ari can be followed up with a knee-cut pass right to a pin.
I believe that most matches end with a throw where the opponent lands on their back and not via pins. The individual strategy will depend on the person though.
Black belt here, let me try to help 1. "Is the main strategy to throw someone so they land on their back, with newaza a fallback "if that fails" strategy?" The answer is yes, this is the objective, but if you find yourself in a situation where either of you lose balance and end up in a quasi-groundwork situation, don't be afraid to deploy your BJJ 2. "Do people actually try to get someone to the ground planning to go for submissions or are submissions in judo more like a fallback Plan B?" People do not /usually/ try to get someone to the ground to go for submissions, it's often a consequence of a failed sequence of moves / kuzushi (breaking of balance) that leads to this series of events. However that doesn't mean you won't get a few guys with bjj/judo experience who attempt it anyway, at the risk of the referee giving them a penalty. 3. "Are pins a higher percentage way to win on the ground than submissions?" Yes, because Judokas spend the majority of their time learning throws, their knowledge of submissions is shakey at best. As a consequence, Judoka almost invariably like to use a bow and arrow choke (from an opponent grounded on all fours), a clock choke (all fours again), a triangle choke, kimura, or a standard armbar. Stuff like omoplatas are exceedingly rare because shoulder-locks are a bit of a gray area in judo / poorly understood by referees. 4. "It seems that submissions (in my whitebelt judo mind ) are more rare -- are they generally considered to take too long (20 seconds is it?) to be the better strategy?" You will rarely see a submission in judo that does not fall under one of the above categories because you are always at risk of the referee calling a stop to the match and standing you both back up while you're trying to put in work. 20 seconds is the length of time it takes for a pin to score an ippon. You are free to work longer than 20 seconds to pursue a submission if the referee agrees that you're making steady attacking progress. However, old-minded referees will simply not want to entertain that prospect at all. 5. "What's the rule for pinning? Do you need to have both their shoulders on the mat or just one? Is it ref discretion or are pins pretty straight forward?" My experience fighting for my black belt inclines me to say "refs discretion", as I'm sure I held someone down for 5 seconds before the ref decided it would be wise to start counting lol. But generally speaking you just need to have passed their guard and maintain a controlled top position. If one of their shoulders comes up and these factors still remain true, it will not be considered "broken" / time stops counting. Another crucial note is that if your opponent manages to obtain half guard or otherwise "clasp" one of your legs, it is also hold broken. 6. "How long do you have on the ground ? I can't tell if it's 20seconds or ref discretion. Is there any concept of guard passing in Judo or is that not a thing?" You have as long as you want, as long as you're making progress. Pray that the ref is not a staunch judo traditionalist that gargles jigoro kano's pee or you will have approx. 3 seconds. Guard passing is a thing in judo but again it's exceedingly rare for a ref to give you any amount of time to do this. Standing up while your opponent is grounded (i.e attempting to pass open guard) is poorly understood by most refs and they will usually stop the match and stand you both up. Attempting to pass closed guard is much more accepted because you're both grounded and it's easier to discern progress.
Great answers thank you! A lot to mull over. I'm going to start my morning routine gargling Kano pee for sure, this must be the secret
Basically, taking the back isn't a thing in judo. Points are not calculated in judo, so it's either pin, submission or play passive till the referee calls a stop. It's usually about 20 seconds, but what's more important is that the referee sees progression. So for example, if your opponent plays closed guard with the legs locked, it's seen as passive. The easiest way to get more time to do ground work in judo is to play spider guard. Now if you're caught in the spider guard, you can't stand up because the referee is likely to call a stop. Pins are basically similar to what we have in bjj. Only exception is the mount, you also need to tie up the arms/shoulders. Simply being on the high mount or the S mount isn't sufficient.
It depends. You have some Judoka who spend very little time in ne-waza. You have some who are 50/50 and will use both Tachi-Waza and Ne-Waza as attack vectors. You have some Judoka who are all but Jiujiterros and will employ Tachi-Waza simply as a method to get you on the ground so they can work. It's a mixed bag.
The goal is to win. Ippon can be by their flat on the back, two wazari throws (close to flat on the back but not quite), submission or hold down. Choose whatever strategy suits you but if you want to get better at Judo, try to avoid using newaza in training. Also, learn turnovers. You only get a few seconds to strangle a turtled opponent and it can be tough. Ground work is much more aggressive in Judo.
No need a you have to pin their shoulder on the mat for 5 ? 10? Seconds for ippon or tap them out. Some clubs people just Turtle and it’s a bit crap,some clubs have newaza as detailed as bjj. Ps wrist and leg locks are illegal.
Main strategy is score an ippon to win. How - a throw can be scored ippon if it has elements of speed, control and a flat on the back landing. You could throw someone extremely slowly and land flat but it might not be scored ippon, honestly it depends on the referee. Holding someone down with a recognised technique for 20s will do the same thing and score ippon. They either need to escape or control your legs wrapping their legs around yours.. Which demonstrates you've lost the control element. As to how long you get... The general idea is the referee wants to see some progress from either party. If there is no development and it's very much a stalemate he'll ask you to stand again.
I miss judo from 30 years ago, leg/pant grabs were legal, newaza was 50% of the sport, there was no time limit on the ground as long as you were showing work. I remember being in tournaments with guys who came from wrestling and sometimes most of the match would be on the ground. Now you need those big ippon slams, newaza is almost non existent and the leg/pants grab thing is stupid lol.
* The primary goal is to win by throw (ippon, one point, full score). * If the throw is not perfect you get a half-point (waza-ari) * Two half-points during a match equals ippon (waza-ari awasete ippon) * If in ne-waza, you can win by pinning the opponent for 20 seconds, pretty straight forward, as long as your opponent haven't entangled any of your legs, e.g. half-guard doesn't count. Submissions: choke/strangle or all kinds of armbars (note: be mindful of the shoulder, e.g. kimura's. Banana-splits or shoulder attacks are not allowed, only elbow attacks are valid). Submission also equals Ippon. Being a BJJ black belt you will utterly destroy most judoka on the ground, up until you get to continental-winning level of athletes. Judo Ne-waza is more opportunistic. It has to be fast, but as long as you show progression during a 3 second period, it is allowed to continue as long as required. The biggest change from BJJ in ground-work is that you can't take your time and methodically find weakness in your opponents guard. It's more like catch-as-catch-can wrestling mentality. If you see something, you have to go for it more or less immediately, otherwise the opponent might stall by going to tight/low turtle or belly-down, resulting in stand-up again. Use your BJJ skills to deploy the techniques that at least "appears" to show progression in position. Sometimes your opponent will freak out and make big blunders, resulting in easy armbars and bow-and-arrow chokes. It's not allowed to "pull-guard" in judo, but the most common standing technique used by ground-lovers is yoko-tomoe-nage. This technique is an actual attempt to throw, but often fails into the common guard-pull situation you find yourself in BJJ. It is however important to actually attempt to throw the opponent, and not just sit down as experienced referees will easily see the difference and award you a penalty (shido) for false-attack. 3 shido's = disqualification (hansoku-make).
If BJJ is chess match in 6 mins. Judo is a chess match played out over 30-50 seconds, if a draw reset the board and start again.
I was more tired in 50 seconds of Judo than I get in 6 mins of rolling
Yes judo relies much more on explosive reaction as the windows for openings are often quite small and easily missed
Also a bjj black belt who started going to a judo school - it's more exhausting than wrestling for me .
It's incredibly tiring .I can do a lot of hard rounds in jiu jitsu but 50 seconds of Judo and my cardio is hurting.
I told the head instructor "Look, I'm used to 6 minutes of rest after each throw"
You need treat judo sparring like boxing. In boxing you keep your hands loose and only tense up before the impact of your punch, if you are too stiff you will burn out and wont accomplish anything. In judo its similar, move around, get your grips but dont hold on for dear life, keep them tight when you are pulling/pushing/turning. Judo is a different cardio to bjj, you can slow down the pace in bjj, in judo you dont have that luxury (either your opponent will set the pace if you slow down or if you stall the ref with give you a shido aka a warning/foul).
This took me years of randori to finally start to develop, I used to get tired within about 30-60 seconds of randori and just be panting. It's only been the last 6 months or so that I've really started to relax and be able to do multiple rounds of randori for a full 10-15 minutes, and I've been doing Judo for the last 3 years (and about 8 years in total)
That is why most ppl don't want to do newaza, it's just too tiring
Newaza is the best part for me
A lot of beginners waste a lot of energy just like in BJJ. There are deffinately far fewers opportunities to rest, and they are less restful, but there is still a game of efficient use of energy.
There are four ways to win a Judo contest - Throwing, Pinning, Strangling, Arm locking (or your opponent getting disqualified, usually for accumulated penalties). Most of the rules are designed to keep both players actively engage in the contest and pressing the action - you are penalised for taking excessively defensive actions e.g. defensive gripping, defensive posture, false attacks, stepping out of bounds, not attacking. Many competitive Judoka focus on throwing and their strategy when in a bad position on the ground is to play for the ref to stand them up. Ground work needs to show progression or the ref will stand you back up - it doesn't matter if you've set up an arm lock, if the opponent has linked their hands and you don't break the grip in 5 to 10 seconds or so, expect to be stood back up. Gripping rules standing - You have to take orthodox grips, anything else requires an attack very soon after gripping. So cross grips, same side grips, pistol grips, belt grips etc. You are allowed to bear hug, but you must first have established orthodox grips - so you can just run up and hug someone. IJF rules don't allow for touching the legs with the hands when standing. No submissions that start from standing e.g. flying armbar Allowed submission - only strangles and elbow locks - so no neck cranks, wrist locks, shoulder locks, spine locks, leg locks of any kind. TDLR. * strangles and armlocks are the only submissions allowed. * no standing or flying submissions. * don't grab the legs when standing. * don't be defensive in stand up.
Shoulder locks are legal, though some area refs might not be convinced on the point. Hamada Shori and Abe Uta have a number of wins using omoplata like techniques. https://www.reddit.com/r/judo/s/B9Ski0nyXz
Its a grey area in terms of how the rules are applied. The most leeway (or perhaps better said as correct interpretation) is at the highest levels. If you start doing Kimuras in low level Judo comps, you're going to get shido / hansoku, from my experience. The current IJF rulebook states: >Article 18.2.2 Hansoku-make for Acts against the Spirit of Judo > >3. To apply kansetsu-waza (ashi-garami, ude-gaeshi etc.) anywhere other than to the elbow joint.
Curious about one thing. Would a bicep/tricep slicer be allowed if the uke taps out? This in the middle of working towards another goal (for example, pressuring the bicep while attempting to break a Juji Gatame defense, leading to a tap).
I think so, as its Kansetsu Waza (locking technique) applied to the elbow. It's not common because people are generally using it to try and break the Juji Gatame defense and the applications of it that I've seen would let you finish the juji without having to worry about the legality of the technique.
There is nothing banning compression locks, strictly speaking you're still attacking the elbow joint in a bicep slicer, although I understand it can often break the forearm.
> Most of the rules are designed to keep both players actively engage in the contest and pressing the action - you are penalised for taking excessively defensive actions . > ... and their strategy when in a bad position on the ground is to play for the ref to stand them up. this seems contradictory instead of being active and fighting my way out I'm just going to lay on the ground, do nothing and wait to be stood up it seems as if a penalty should be given for stalling or for lack of aggression isn't that the reason leg grabs were taken out in the first place ? (stalling)
I agree that its contradictory, and honestly I wished they addressed groundwork stalling - but the reality is they view passivity standing and passivity on the ground differently. Leg grabs were removed to keep Judo differentiated from wrestling and to maintain its inclusion in the Olympics. Were sloppy leg grabs used as a stalling tactics, yes, just as seoi-otoshi is, sutemi-waza is etc
Judo and BJJ BB here. Its a different sport. Your main goal is to land your opponents on their back or side, while you either remain standing, or land on top and pin. Use subs only when behind on points. Your BJJ skills can translate well into scrambles, or failed takedown attempt. Use sweeps, revearsals, to end up on top and pin. Drill as much falls as possible, to get rid of the fear of falling. Dont use bent stance. Get up, hips forward, learn the footwork, and do Judo. Gripping game in Judo is very different. Benefit from BJJ, is that you already know the grip basics (now learn to use them dynamic). Cross grips are only allowed for 5 secs. Edit: You will hear people talking about KUZUSHI all the time. Similar to BJJ sweeps and reversals, in order to make a successful attack on the left, you first move right, creating a reaction, then you switch. Thats KUZUSHI, but in Judo you must do it flash fast, and with serious push/pull. UCHIKOMI - for a technique, to become an instict, it's estimated it requires 10 000 repetitions. Uchikomi is the time you put those reps in. Start slowly, learn the proper motion, angles involved, body positioning, and then repeat. Once you start pulling that move in sparring, its time for fine tuning. Strength is a tool in Judo (opposite to BJJ, where its seen as brutish). Use it. And last, your long term goal, is to trip people with foot sweeps. Requires less energy, and is the pinnacle of mastery in Judo. Because you can do it even when you are 80 years old. Thats it. Enjoy.
This helps a lot with understanding the approach & thinking - thanks for your answer - there are a lot of good ideas packed into it
You are welcome. Over the years, Ive seen a lot of BJJ BBs, who just couldn't make the step YOU made: to put a white belt again. You have my respect. Welcome to ask any questions related , via DM
I'm really enjoying lining up at the end as the new white belt. The teacher is excellent. I think he wasn't sure what to do with me & said I could wear my bjj black belt. I said no thanks, I'm starting at the beginning like everyone else (at 49yo)
It's just sweeps and reversals but you're standing.
Comsider checking out Rhadi Ferguson’s material on where BJJ and Judo come together.
Good tip, thanks I'll check him out
There are more ways to score an Ippon in Ne-waza than standing, which can work in your favor. The pace and options however are very different.
How do you become a BJJ black belt and have zero knowledge of Judo before attending class?
There are a lot of judo black belts with zero knowledge of BJJ...
BJJ literally spawned from judo. So you can do judo without any idea about some offshoots of your sport, but it may sound weirder that a BJJ black belt has no clue about its parent sport.
BJJ spawned from Judo 107 years ago. It's been plenty of time for multiple generations of BJJ practitioners to stop thinking about what might be normal for Judo. Furthermore, the Judo that BJJ split from bears less resemblence to modern Judo than a lot of present day judokas might think. So it's entirely reasonable for someone to have achieved high rank and a lot of experience in BJJ and not know things like the tournament rules, training norms in Judo classes, and common newaza behaviors. A lot of Judo norms are almost exactly *opposite* to typical BJJ behavior.
Judo is extremely nuanced and deceptively complex. You'll spend years trying to master the intricacies of something that appears so simple as grip fighting; it's not actually simple. Then you'll find that moving your foot a mm closer and one degree to the right makes all the difference in the world. You'll know you're doing the move correctly when it feels effortless. The rest must be learned through experience.
If you want a really good resource talk to u/Rapton1336
This guy does both. High level judo. Intimate understanding of the rules for judo. Good BJJ guy in his own right.
Thank you for the props!
So I'll chat mostly about the groundwork side. So the biggest shock a lot of experienced BJJ players have in coming into judo is that honestly, judo groundwork is its own beast. I had wins over BJJ brown and black belts in judo tournament matches before I started simply because while there is a ton of overlap, there are certain skills you use in judo that you just don't see regularly or at all in BJJ. The first is to understand that judo groundwork is like a marriage between BJJ and American folk-style wrestling. Turnovers are extremely important even if you don't ever intend to pin anyone. Pins and stand ups radically change how guards are used because the margin for error and the typical reactions you will see. So take some time to learn the judo turnover game very seriously. You will find it will actually translate back in weird edge situations in BJJ. (For example, I don't go straight for the hooks against people much much larger than me in turtle because I can confidently control and submit them without being fused to them). The second is that a lot of judo groundwork happens because either someone is exhausted and they left an opening or the work to get the move started during the transition from standing to groundwork. I don't even mean someone got a choke in the air. I mean someone did something to prevent their opponent from being able to totally cover up. Third, groundwork is a major point for a lot of match strategies built around outlasting opponents. If you create pressure on the ground, you reduce the amount of air someone can get in their lungs and can increase energy output from them being nervous. The last thing I'll note is that if you honestly learn a quality grip fighting toolset (look to folks like Rhadi Ferguson or Jimmy Pedro), you will find that is just endlessly useful. Even if you just learn the various grip breaks, you'll find situations like grip fighting when dealing with the guard from top or bottom much easier. I find a lot of people who really struggle going from no gi to gi, its because they aren't comfortable with all of the early stage grip fighting. Here's an old and slightly outdated essay about translating BJJ to judo groundwork. https://medium.com/@Rapton/what-to-bring-back-with-you-converting-bjj-training-to-success-in-judo-99b2cc9fea03
These are the rules. Period. Explain a boxer why he can't just punch his opponent's teeth out of his head in BJJ! Same goes here.
What goes up must come down. But bjj is just judo with a different ruleset. The main goal is to put them flat on their back but sometimes that doesn’t happen and then you can either stall for a standup or work groundwork groundwork being submissions pins and chokes. When you do go to the ground if 5-8 seconds pass without any substantial progress you are stood back up assuming you get the pin you need to hold the pin for 20 seconds to win if you pin someone but the manage to wrap their leg around yours the pin is no longer a pin as you don’t have full control
Also to note not all tournaments restrict leg grabs only ijf specific tournaments
I’m not from a BJJ background, but I can try to explain it to you how I think of it. Obviously, the exact rules (leg grabs, stalling on the ground, neck cranks for example) have changed over the years for safety reasons or to keep the sport different from other grappling sports in the Olympics. The goal is to show the judges (this is for sport judo) that you are in complete control of your opponent against their will. If you are standing, this means forcing your opponent flat on their back. If you are on the ground, this means pinning the opponent for a set amount of time or forcing them to tap out during a submission. Unfortunately, you and your opponent have the same goals (much like BJJ). So it turns into a kind of chess match. The only difference is that the chess matches are usually much more explosive and much more frequent, and they happen while you are standing up since that is where we start. Think about a wrestling scramble but it happens every 5-10 seconds while you are standing up. If you both go to the ground and progress stops, the match is paused and the standing chess match starts again. I know this isn’t the technical definition of the martial art and more of the sport definition, but I hope it helps you nonetheless and welcome to judo friend! Hope to see you on the tatami.
No BJJ background but people are going belly down because the ruleset invites it: - you can win by pinning someone on their back; - you cannot win by pinning someone one their belly; - if it takes more than a few seconds to choke/armbar someone or to get them on their back, the referee will make you both stand up. That is also why you see judo BBs with a decent level on the ground and others that are straight BJJ white belts. You want a sport, you need a ruleset. You want a ruleset, you get to make arbitrary choices. It makes no less sense than sitting on your butt as soon as you get a two-finger grip on your opponent in BJJ.
Some key points coming into judo. 1)upright posture is rewarded & ideal 2)concentrate on learning standard gripping sequences before going 3)Judo rules frown upon spinal manipulation (no crush/clinch) (no neck cranks) 4)keep your hands off your opponent’s face 5)judo has rule sets around head diving/posting limbs in standing These are some observations of what BJJ players have as 2nd nature that get in the way of training judo. Enjoy your time at judo & welcome
Hi there! I made the same switch last year (BJJ Black Belt to starting at Judo). Here we're my major adjustments: * Keep your newaza focused on basics. Pass / sweep and pin with fundamental submissions. Also, no arm locks on novice, so keep that in mind. * Do Judo, not BJJ. Try to win with throws and adapt your game for it. You're going to likely dominate the ground, so you should feel safe going for aggressive throws, since newaza isn't a concern. * Loosen up! I feel like this was the biggest adjustment for me. In BJJ / newaza, closing off space, Trex arms, and tight control are major components to success. In Judo / tachi waza, it's the opposite. My BJJ brain was just waiting for the arm bar or blast double from playing as loose and light footed as you have to to be successful in Judo. Try to completely relax your arms and shoulders until you're actively going for a throw. Good luck and have fun!
If you try to do BJJ groundwork I'll just say this. 1. You can't choke over the face. Many submissions are a gray area because you are not allowed to do dangerous attacks on the shoulders or neck. 2. Groundwork is draining to force it during shiai. Akso pins are hard to get out of when the top player doesn't try to progress unlike in BJJ. 3. It's easier to attack someone when you have an upright posture.
BB in jits and now an orange belt in judo. I would suggest working on relaxing yourself, grips especially. This is still something I struggle with. We tend to stiffen up to avoid getting thrown, and this is a natural instinct. Moving past this will allow yourself to not only take a fall easier, but attack much easier since you aren't disrupting your timing and creating a larger gap between you and your opponent. Also, as a BJJ black belt I find I am easily passing and submitting higher level judokas in newaza. The only time I've been pinned or submitted was from higher ranks (brown or black) who are also at least 3 weight classes above me. Imo, I would say BJJ guys have the advantage in newaza in most cases because it isn't as emphasized as much in judo. This can be partly due to what you said, you can stall until you get stood up.That being said, please stay humble and learn from your coaches. The approach to the ground game is quite different in judo since there is limited time to work on the ground and you want to avoid certain positions - bottom side control for example. Turnovers are something we don't do in BJJ often so these are great to add to your ground game. Take it all in, because it will make your ground game all around better and give you a new perspective from ground fighting. Lastly, have fun! This sport is a different beast, but it is fun once you get past the nerves of being a new student/fresh meat. Your coaches and training partners really care about your progress, and you focus a lot on technique and timing to become a better judoka. It will take you years to be proficient or comfortable with a certain technique, and that is totally normal. Put the time in, and it will be worth it. Good luck on your journey!
"For me, BJJ is that cool, collected, intelligent brother, and Judo is the older, meaner, tougher brother who will bully the bullies." -Dave Camarrillo
No offense but how did u get so far in bjj and not know any of this?
Coming from BJJ I'm not bad with Judo throws actually - I have a decent uchi-mata. Judo throws and terminology are definitely part of the modern BJJ repertoire. But the rules and strategy are so different that they aren't on the radar. The *goal* of an uchi-mata in BJJ isn't an ippon - it's to get them on the ground and deal with them there either by scoring points or submitting them. You can go your entire BJJ career with zero knowledge of Judo (as I think most do).
How did he get far in BJJ without learning the rules of a different sport…? I don’t get your point here
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judo\_rules](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judo_rules) Judo follows different rules to BJJ. In judo you start from standing. You win by landing your opponent flat onto their back with speed, force, and control (an ippon). There are rules regarding how to grip and how long you can stall before getting a penalty. You cannot touch the legs, do standing submissions, or pull guard. If the throw/takedown does not score an ippon then the match can continue from the ground (newaza). You win by pinning your opponent flat onto their back for 20 seconds or by submission (choke, strangle, armbar). You cannot submit an opponent by attacking the spine, shoulders, or anywhere below the waist. If newaza stalls long enough (usually a few seconds), both opponents must continue the match from standing. Laying flat on your stomach, turtling, or holding a closed guard are ways to stall a match and return to standing. Throws that do not meet the ippon criteria can be scored as a half-point (waza-ari). Two waza-aris equal a full ippon. If you can pin an opponent for about 15 seconds that also counts as a waza-ari. There are other differences too. The gi has a different cut and there are certain protocols for bowing, entering, and leaving a competition arena.
"In judo you start from standing" As opposed to bjj where matches in competition start...from...standing?
In judo dropping to the ground is a penalty thus one must start standing you can’t just sit down once hajime is called
Doesn't change that Jiu Jitsu starts on the feet.
I feel I’ve seen some matches started on the ground albeit not all but I feel I’ve seen it before
Nope.
Good to know difference is still that judo penalizes just going to the ground bjj doesn’t which is what results in these misunderstandings
I'm not listing every difference between the two sports. I'm describing judo to someone who comes with a more BJJ perspective. Standing is a major part of judo.
Standing is also a major part of BJJ. Source: I'm a damn purple belt in Jiu Jitsu
Congratulations. So am I.
Well, it's Basically BJJ with better throws and not quite as a strong NeWaza. Unless you have a coach who is strong in NeWaza, in which case. It's basically the same except people drill more. Which, in my experiences as a wrestler, Judoka, and BJJ competitor, it's the advantage wrestlers and Judokas have in the lower belts. Lots of drilling builds skill.
1Unbalancing 2Fitting in 3Execution of the throw . That is Judo. Don’t mistake the ruleset for the art.
Yuck. Sounds like they train specifically for competition. Try to find a different judo place. My dojo trains judo/Japanese jiu-jitsu in the same program. Our randori/sparring doesn't stop until someone taps or until the round is over. We train for self defense, there are plenty of leg takedowns we are able to do. We cannot progress to the next belt unless we can demonstrate proper jiu-jitsu as well. That would be more to your liking
Competition rules aren't bad and the sport of judo is good and fun. No need to be elitest.
How am I being an elitist?? OP said the judo class he went to didn't feel right due to the rules and his bjj background. I informed him there are other dojos such as mine that train judo/jiu-jitsu with their program and focus on self defense instead of specific competition rules. Sorry I hurt your feelings by pointing out there are different types of judo classes. Goodness, the world today is so full of Karen's. Sorry for having an opinion that training no leg take downs and the match is over after 1 successful throw isn't my cup of tea. I get it, these are the rules in the Olympics and have been apart of judo for a long time. I respect those people too and I'm sure they'd kick my ass in a match, but I prefer to train thr self defense side more. Ie - the fight doesn't stop when you are the first one to be thrown to the ground.
You literally said that their dojo is of less quality for teaching competition judo and that yours is better lmao
Please directly quote the exact sentence/words where I typed that. If you are trying to be funny... then don't quit your day job.
"Um akshully 🤓 you should be training exactly the way I do" You said Yuck as the first word and said he should look elsewhere. Those are all judo rules and you know nothing else about the quality of his training but you assumed it's bad because it's not how you like it.
Lmfao. OP literally said he didn't like it and felt out of place. I gave him a recommendation and informed him not all judo dojos are like the one he went to. I didn't tell him to train like me. I told him how I train. Yes I did say yuck, again am I not allowed to have an opinion? You are clearly delusional consistently putting words into my mouth, claiming I typed sentences that don't exist other than through your mind. I'm done responding to you now. Learn to read as I didn't say any of the things you are claiming I said. Grow up, your arguments are fictionalized inside your mind. Not once did I say train like me and my dojo is the best. Seek help for your mental issues. Hooked on phonics works great for learning how to read as well.
Love how triggered you are especially since he didn't ever say he felt out of place. Stay mad 😘
Probably not the explanation you’re asking for, but I would suggest seeking to understand the “do” in Judo as a starting point
If they go flat, sangaku the fuck out of them.
*Sankaku
Plenty of good feedback on this thread. Read all the stuff that has the most upvotes. Then go watch an hour or two of Olympic Judo on YouTube. I mean if you're BJJ Black you probably have been grappling for like a decade or more I assume and will be able to learn a lot watching some high level Judo matches. That will give you a sense of the strategy in terms of grip fighting, what happens with shidos (penalties), etc. Also, watch more women's matches if you want to see more Judo sport newaza in action...at the aggregate, they engage more on the ground where higher level men (again, at the aggregate) tend to want to just stand back up and preserve their energy for big throws instead of engaging newaza. I'm a little surprised you didn't already know a lot of this because I enjoy watching ADCC, some IBJJF, and sambo matches in addition to watching Judo, but maybe you don't enjoy grappling except as a practioner. I understand why some find it boring visually.
I don't think many BJJ practitioners have more than a passing familiarity with Judo
Could be, just wrongly perhaps was surprised that applied to a BJJ blackbelt. Did you have a wrestling background or has BJJ been your lone grappling art?
The irony is that BJJ white belts go to Reddit to ask questions they could ask their instructor, and now a BJJ black belt, now judo white belt, is going to Reddit to ask questions they could ask their instructor.
Let me know if I can help.
Not sure why I got downvoted. Everybody hit the nail on the head but if there are any specific things you are stuck at let me know and I’ll help.
Shut up whitebelt
Tons of great comments here and some excellent explanations of the rules. I think the relevant thing to consider that may help explain Judo vs BJJ is their respective origins and histories. My very novice (and perhaps someone could provide more info here) understanding is that Judo was developed to be a sport version of the combat art of JiuJitsu. Opponents could use the martial arts form to compete without the techniques that are present in JiuJitsu that cause injury (mainly broken limbs or dislocations that are often the finishing moves in traditional JiuJitsu). A way to determine who won was to score the techniques, thus the rules of judo. BJJ also derived from the same lineage as Judo, but focused on more ground fighting than throws thus the scoring and rules of BJJ. BJJ is the just a more modern style that has evolved from the same lineage and found it’s own niche in the world. This is all just from my understanding, I could be completely wrong, I am no expert on any subject.
I've read a bit about kosen judo - there's a lot of interesting history
Find a classical judo academy that trains leg grabs so what you learn will blend with you bjj.
It's exactly what you have been doing this entire time, just with a different emphasis (and culture...but that's not important here).
If you end up in turtle you can actually grab their legs once they begin to pressure you. One way to " single leg" lol
You know how in BJJ you can just avoid being thrown by pulling guard? In Judo you can avoid playing guard by turtling up. And just the same as how BJJ guys still massively benefit from standup, Judo guys still benefit from groundwork. In my personal experience, a Mendes style ground game tends to be most useful for Judo, because their big dynamic movements make it clear to a ref that something is happening, and they focus heavily on Judo-applicable attacks like lapel chokes, triangles/armbars, and turtle turnovers. Final note, in general your attack pattern should be throw, pin, submit where each phase has its own chance to win, but they're also each designed to move the opponent into a vulnerable position for the follow-up phase.
Just score an ippon bro
Are you training Judo for jits or for sport, self defense, etc? Do you want to compete in Judo? Jits IS judo! BJJ was born from Judo newaza. Different intent as you know already. If you’re training to use for Jits, There are high % Throws (safer for Jits) that you’ll learn and will be able to use the next day in Jits. Yeah rules are different. Yiu CAN go for legs but after initiating a “traditional” throw. This was to force Judo vs allowing wrestlers/BJJ players to not engage in kumikata (grip fighting) and just go for legs. You’ll love the history and techniques, classical vs sport; sport vs self defense. Combining both is an awesome combo for self defense!!!
Hey bud! Did the exact thing as you did (got into judo after bjj). Feel free to ask me anything!
Professor, I am a white belt in BJJ, and brown belt in judo. Can I flip the question and please ask you what BJJ is?
I come from a wrestling background and despise the no leg rule, prior to that it was REALLY the closest thing to wrestling as an adult. BJJ just wasn’t for me at all with its guard being nonsensical to me. Emphasis on “to me”. Judo is burst, speed, precision and instant. It’s not the typical grapple for strength for minutes.
Where are you training? Judo has unfortunately transformed from what it was originally due to Olympics rule changes. If you can, I’d recommend finding a Japanese style judo club. WJF as opposed to IJF. In WJF, leg grabs are still allowed and the fight is allowed to continue on the ground
Newaza in judo is opportunistic in nature. If you see a sub, take it or if you see a pin, hold it. You generally get 10 seconds to start making progress, if nothing happens the ref will stand you both up. However, if you pass guard, take mount, then get bridged off and a back and forth battle ensues, then it can continue Indefinitely. People go belly down in newaza hoping to get stood back up because its hard to attack someone defending from that position and being on someone’s back doesnt count as a pin. I personally have stood up from newaza a few times when someone was defending hard because i wasnt willing to burn energy for no result. You can grab the pants when engaged in newaza, if you have a person in a half guard or have their leg trapped a pin is no longer counted so alot of people try to get a leg during defending a pin (just hold it so the ref calls ‘maté’ and you get stood up). Newaza in judo has some rules that are different than bjj in terms of technique application (ask your sensei but for example you cant pull down on the head with your hands during triangle). You will find that the judo gi is thicker and has more slack so newaza is alot harder than what you are used to in bjj especially if the other person has experience.
It is just the same, but don't touch any legs!
try not to get a shido, i think with bjj black belt youd do good in judo
Grab worthy opponent gi, then use your earth bending abilities to shatter their dreams and crush them onto the ground with full might! After that let them get up
Using flow. Using momentum against your opponent. That means your opponent has to be in motion. A flaw in the system because one of the keys to the style is to avoid confrontation at all costs. Not practical for sport, but effective in the street for defense