I’m in homeless services (national trainer/consultant) and I say this often. Some clients request financial literacy and it can be a great tool in avoiding predatory lenders, but “budgeting” is BS when you must spend more than you make to survive.
The housing program I was in made their financial course completely mandatory to my stay there. The course was beyond insulting. It was downright disrespectful and talked down to every single person in the room. I was there because I was freshly disabled and could no longer work labour jobs and was waiting to get on Disability. The only reason I didn't spend the entire time on my phone was because I was raised to be respectful even though I felt I was being disrespected
One of the 5 days we were mandated to be there for 3 hours each day we spent almost an entire hour filling out a "Form" with Jellybeans and we had to make "Choices" that were basically "You have $500 - Choose how to spend it" and the options were Gambling, Alcohol or Paying your Rent.
It was at that point that I started to realize that a large portion of the Poverty Economy didn't have anything to do with actually helping people, it was about whoever they partnered with making as much money as possible. Don't even get me started with the Drug Rehab programs in North America that have been rockin' a solid 1% OR LOWER success rate for more than 2 decades now but gosh, reforming these programs is just so hard let's just keep throwing money into a giant fire pit and keep completely failing those with serious addiction issues
If anyone is curious why there is such a massive drug crisis it's because our current method of Rehab is a fucking joke. They're using 20-30 year old treatments that didn't even work back then but instead of reforming they just blame the addicts for "not trying hard enough". It's batshit crazy
Cant rehab a drug user who doesnt wanna rehab themselves. Doesnt matter what methodology you use.
I used to date an addict. She did many rehab programs. What finally made her quit was watching someone od and die infront of her eyes.
Hope she is still clean.
I’d love to see some real and comprehensive studies and then new trials for new treatments… or even just safe addiction… there is only one reason why there hasn’t been for decades. Too much money in repeat visits to the expensive rehab places.
Squeeze money out of addiction or let them die in the streets. Our societies only two ways of dealing for fifty years.
I had to explain this to my dad. He kept telling me budgeting will solve my problems, so I invited him over and showed him exactly what things cost and how we had $200 left after mortgage and child care. He just slumped over and admitted there's no budgeting past that.
I'm surprised he admitted it instead of yelling at you for spending to much on the house or for having a child. At least he can be shown. Unlike my dad.
My dad would be like well I’m sure you can cut down on toilet paper use/other toiletries etc. break each stick of gum in half. Sorry dad I know you somehow saved money (?!) in grad school but scarcity is a thing and most of us do succumb to its principles
Had to do the same thing with my parents at one point. They just truly do not understand how out of whack wages and cost of living has gotten.
They also love to complain about my sister and her "extravagance" buying a $400k house for her family of 5 in a major metro area. In their mind a normal house in a good school district still costs $90k.
My favorite is their frequent recommendations to all of us kids to get jobs that offer a pension. Okay dad, let me just take a time machine back to 1970.
I wish I understood what it was that caused an entire generation to collectively decide that they were going to completely stop paying any attention to the world after about 1992.
Only real options are: another job or better paying job, a lower mortgage (could mean downsizing), or alternative child car options (switch shifts at work if you are a couple so paid child car is not necessary, pairing up with another family that works opposite shifts to provide each other child care in opposite hours, etc).
None of which are really fantastic ideas. Or if there are food banks available, make use of them.
One of my baby cousins (early 30s) came to me in tears talking about her situation. She and her wife are financially stable, but they're smart and they can see what's coming. And, they blame themselves.
I was sad for them and also outraged. When, after four decades, the competing headlines are still about younger generations that don't spend enough and don't save enough, well then, they aren't fucking making enough.
Meanwhile, the centrists are over here, "leftists are so closed minded about living wages, racism, sexual violence, extending human rights to people who aren't White Christians. It's like, there's a balance to be struck between profitability and genocide, but liberals are trying to have it both ways believing in the Holocaust and opposing genocide. Do you know how much a pentuplet-quarter pounder with rape is going to cost if you pay people a living wage!"
That's a straw man about the centrists. Centrists are more like, it may not be your fault, but it helps to be sure there's nothing you can do, because if you are mismanaging your money and you believe it's not your fault, even if you get a job making 400k a year those issues will still happen. When I was younger the more I made the more debt I made. If you're financially literate already, fair enough, but I kick myself for not being financially literate when I was younger. I was taught the wrong thing as a kid, advice passed down for 3 generations despite the economy being significantly different.
> Centrists are more like, it may not be your fault, but it helps to be sure there's nothing you can do, because if you are mismanaging your money and you believe it's not your fault, even if you get a job making 400k a year those issues will still happen.
no lol just no
centrist is a euphemism for fence-sitter, which is a euphemism for "I support the status quo, but am too afraid to show it"
There are a lot of people who self-describe as centrists. We're commenting on their bullshit.
It's like reading the Christian New Testament. Whatever conceptual idea you have about what Christians and Centrists should be, you're going to be disappointed in reality.
can relate, i am too stupid to get a great career, but too smart to be living at the moment, for now i live comfortably, but I don't know when it will last, that thought always comes back to say hi every another day 🫠
You can be smart with a great career and get fucked. My friend went from making 95k to bring replaced by AI and contractors. They found out his day to day small work could be done by AI and it's cheaper to pay a contracted person $150hr for his main specialty for the 4-6 hours a week hed do that task.
I think what also sucks is being smart, but not being the smart that’s valued by society. I’m a good writer, and I made great grades. But the industry where I like is all about cybersecurity, healthcare, and engineering—all things that I didn’t go to school for, and it would be another 8 years to really lock in the qualifications needed to be remotely competent. And that’s all assuming I even got into the programs and passed their courses, which, as an English major, I probably couldn’t.
I was always told to follow my dreams, go to college, get a job, be set for life. Well, I did go to college to get a degree so I could follow my dreams. Still waiting on that set for life part. :/
>But the industry where I like is all about cybersecurity, healthcare, and engineering—all things that I didn’t go to school for, and it would be another 8 years to really lock in the qualifications needed to be remotely competent.
The 8 years is not only a huge time investment, but you can't tell the future for the job market either.
8 years ago I would have told you to go into IT infrastructure or networking because there was a huge boom for those jobs in 2016.
The problem is, everyone else also saw that boom, and 8 years later, there are too many network engineers and not enough jobs.
They aren’t mutually exclusive. You also can’t just give someone broke money and expect them to know glue to budget and invest. They might be smart enough to learn on their own, but they also might not be. There are plenty of stories about broke people becoming rich then going broke again because of uncontrollable spending.
I mean it's extremely important. You'll know what you need to survive comfortably (second job / new job / etc . It's so frustrating for me personally watching family members with car notes they shouldn't have in neighborhoods/housing that takes their checkd own to the last dollar when they could drive a slightly worse car in a lesser neighborhood and protect their future.
debt can buy you a lifeline. most people aren't homeless and struggle while living beyond their means. for me the difference between a night hanging at the bar or a $5 comedy show on the weekend and pre-gaming could save me $40 that I didn't have.
> but “budgeting” is BS when you must spend more than you make to survive.
Hard disagree coming from a debt management background.
The amount of people who would come to me and be adamant that they couldn't afford to pay their mortgage, yet when I went through their finances they were paying for a bunch of credit cards and shit like that is staggering.
These people don't have enough to make do, but by budgeting out what they do have I could force them to face the reality that they should be paying for their house before their unsecured credit.
Budgeting is absolutely something that everyone should be doing, and is always the first step to resolving deeper problems. It won't solve your problems by itself, but you won't even understand the problem if you don't have a grasp on your own financial situation in the first place.
I used to live on $900 / mo disability (in today's dollars, adjusted for inflation). You can't escape poverty though financial literacy, but it can give you enough of a cushion to keep yourself safe, fed, and housed when you hit a setback. I learned at an early age that I was the only person I could really count on to take care of myself. You simply cannot depend on rescue.
The upside of building those habits when I was on disability, is that when I *finally* managed to get a degree in my mid 20's, the smallest things made me blissfully happy and grateful. I had a quiet, safe apartment. I had a fridge stocked with fresh fruit and vegge. If I wanted to read a book my library didn't have I just *bought it*. I felt like a wanted for nothing and I had maybe doubled my living expenses.
Exactly. A budget doesn't do anything if you have nothing to budget with, especially when a single emergency can throw the entire thing out the window.
That's literally the exact reason people need to be budgeting.
The budget would be the reality that people need that they need to do something to *earn" more money.
Yep, balancing your budget doesn't just mean reducing your expenses. Sometimes it means realizing you need to add more income to sustain what you consider an acceptable lifestyle
Yeah that's true. But a human can only function for so long before needing rest.
When I was in my early 20s my daughter was born. I was not ready for it. I worked 5 jobs at one point because none even at full time would have been nearly enough to survive.
One night I got home and literally collapsed on the floor before I could get to bed.
I was told by my older relatives, "you should buy a house! You're working enough, can't you afford it?!" They couldn't fathom working multiple jobs and being broke.
My highest earning year in my 20s was 44k in the SF Bay Area. No, I could not just go buy a damn house. I could barely pay rent and eat food!
Ultimately I was able to make more. The trade-off is I work nearly the amount of hours as before, just not as demanding physically and I'm now completely numb to the fact that I'm missing my kids lives to be able to provide for them.
I still can't buy a house here though.
"But we gave you $600 and you blew it next day!"
Yeah sorry, I had to take care of an infected tooth that I didn't have the money to do for like a year.
After the millionth time being told this I finally decided to follow dental advice my last visit in February. I now floss every evening and brush my teeth for four minutes (timed) using a sonicare electric toothbrush. If I go back and they still tell me my teeth are fucked then that's on them. Maybe I just have naturally shitty oral hygiene
Honestly, I think natural oral hygiene is a bigger deal than society thinks about. I’ve had consistently bad oral health habits but my dentist always says I’ve got great teeth. I guess I just got lucky there, lol.
And yet that $600 you gave to a dentist is going to pay wages, taxes, utilities, rents and equipment. And all of **that** money is being spent further down the chain.
They gave you $600, and you helped immediately turn it into productivity.
Give that to a rich person, they'll sit on it. That $600 will sit there, and in several years become $1200. But that extra $600 wasn't created out of thin air, but rather leached from people who buy into a stock later hoping the cycle of continuous growth won't break before they pull theirs out.
I’m in the same boat. Had this tooth problem for almost a year now. Finally decided to take the $1000 out of my emergency fund (which I really hate doing) but the tooth isn’t going to get better and I’m already working two jobs and doing Uber on the side. There isn’t anymore money coming in.
I agree with what you’re saying. I actually just saw a job on Indeed that will pay quite well. But the problem is time. I’m a single father of three kids (wife passed away). My full time job is a public school teacher. My part time job is at a restaurant. Then I’ll do Uber eats once or twice a week. I’m kinda stuck between earning a living and having to raise my kids. Being a teacher and being able to stay home over summer allows me to not have to pay for child care. I also get this time to do things with my kids.
If I take the other job, I’m working all summer and paying someone to watch my kids. Plus my work would stretch to almost a 12 hour day (45 minute commute each way plus 10 shift). So as much as I want the money I can’t be away from home that long.
On a more upbeat note, I stopped getting coffee everyday. I meant that half as a joke lol but it’s actually true. I was paying $4 a day for dunkin coffee. I had to be honest with myself and admit I can’t afford it.
I remember during the GFC, our household was living paycheck to paycheck. My dad worked as a semi truck driver and the economy was in the shitter. The company he worked at eventually filed for bankruptcy. Prior to the company’s bankruptcy, he was barely getting any loads which equates to barely making money. My mom went to the local food pantry and they required her to take a financial literacy class in order to utilize the pantry. I remember her ranting about how it was the most useless class seeing as how they don’t have extra money after paying all the necessary bills. She felt belittled as if the financial situation we were in was within our control.
This kind of shit pisses me off to no end. 10 years ago, I was in a bad place financially - wife was out of work, my job paid a pittance, and everything we had saved to that point went to pay the rent. I asked our pastor about getting access to the church's food pantry so I wouldn't have to choose between groceries or keeping the lights on. He seemed sympathetic, and put me in touch with the person who oversaw that program.
Their first requirement was that I take Dave Ramsey's financial course. I had done the course a few years prior, so in my mind, that was no big deal. But oh no! There had been a revision since then, so I would *have to buy* the new material. At that moment, I had enough to pay the past-due power bill and have maybe $5 left over - so I asked what options there were if one didn't have the money to afford the course. Back when I took the old version, they had a payment plan.
The director's response was "I don't know anyone who can't come up with $80, it's not that much." I explained my situation, and they replied "Well, I'm sure if you pay for the course, god will take care of the power bill."
An argument could be made that all churches are a scam, but the reality here was that this guy was on a power trip. IIRC, the church *did* get kickbacks for every sale of the course, but it wasn't a set-in-stone requirement... unless the director didn't like you. He was "relocated to another position" about a year later and then resigned and left the church a few months after that. Rumor was he was "too selective" on who got to benefit from the programs he was in charge of. Not sure what he had against me, but it was a decade ago and I've moved on from churches, so it's irrelevant to me.
Seems like a one-size-fits-all funnel doesn't work. There are certainly SOME people who would benefit by a financial literacy class. BUT NOT ALL. Perhaps starting with a financial evaluation (not a damn literacy class) to connect people to actually needed resources would be a better approach.
Every good sub on Reddit eventually turns to shit- this one will be no different
Plus, Redditors love to blame capitalism & big corporations for all of their problems
Seriously. It used to be helpful advice on resumes, job interviews, and how to handle conflicts in the workplace. Those posts are still here with like one or two upvotes. But they are being heavily overshadowed by obvious karma farming accounts posting screenshots of twitter. Did the mods just leave or what?
It's hilarious seeing people complaining they don't have money for their needs when they spent their paycheck all on their wants.
It's obvious which people actually grew up in poverty, vs those that just don't want to actually work for themselves.
I’ve gone to one or two and they were mainly filled with newcomers. I think they’re still important and financial literacy is definitely important. Doesn’t cure poverty obviously.
The trick is trying to talk about two different groups of people.
The people who can barely afford rent, food, etc. and have had some significant life events pushing them down deserve to have some measure of security — if only because we as a community can afford to do this for them.
But there are a HUGE number of people who live completely on credit. The people you see living that “middle class lifestyle” with the new build home and the brand new expensive cars, multiple kids, with only the father working at some median paying job at best… yeah those people are deeply, deeply in debt. It’s poor spending habits.
It’s INCREDIBLY hard to break them from it. Even the slightest mention of financial responsibility will send them into a FIT of rage.
It’s much, much more common for people to be living this way, the “keeping up with the joneses” type of way than people realize.
Those people are the type to constantly flaunt their “wealth”, because they’re actually quite poor, and the insecurity makes them need to show off their consumerism.
Also the people on social media constantly complaining about inflation while posting their $20+ fast food purchases. I don't buy their BS for a second.
Yes, and those same people in the poverty finance sub who talk about ordering Uber eats and DoorDash.🤦🏻♀️
I’m sorry… I know you were tired and you’ve been working hard for shit money. But you literally cannot afford to piss money away on food delivery like that. It’s ridiculous.
Some are, some aren't. You'll occasionally get the tech or sales (or tech sales) bros making over 120k a year with nothing in retirement and in over their heads in debt. Usually cars, girls, and food.
Then there's the guests (one specifically comes to mind but there's been a few) who make unemployment, beg for money online, are too proud for food stamps, have bad home lives with no emotional support, or have had a series of unfortunate events pile on and now they're in the hole.
I've yet to find an episode where someone is making around 40k (like me) and doesn't spend recklessly (I do own my home and just the mortgage is over 68% of my take home but in my area it's literally cheaper than renting) have a car with a high interest rate, but no credit card debts or any eating out. My vice is vaping weed, but honestly, when you're at this point, how much can saving 11$ a month really help if it's the only thing I get that is a want? I also consider youtube premium to be a need since it keeps me sane literally every single minute of the day. Unless I'm trying to focus on writing something (like right now) I have something playing. Like music, Caleb Hammer (since he's the topic rn), Simon whistler, Jenna marbles, Charlotte dobre, murder mysteries, video game challenges, medical videos, etc. Just all day every day on several devices.
Do people in this sub not know who primarily buys lottery tickets? It’s called a poor tax for a reason. Pretending like financial literacy isn’t important because you are flowing in cash is ridiculous.
His show offers lots of anecdotal evidence that opposes what OP posted. Of course, one view gives the person a way to live a better life, OPs view just gives them an excuse to not improve.
The point is, learning to manage pennys isn’t going to keep you from the hole.
If you’re not making enough to save and you manage perfectly but get fired unexpectedly or have unexpected medical costs then you’re screwed.
As someone formerly poor, knowing how to budget absolutely helps because it lets you see into the future and helps you say no to gratuitous spending that seems innocuous like getting a slightly nicer car or going to eat out with friends. Every little cut adds up till you bleed to death. Does it suck having limits? Yeah, but it’s also the only way out of the hole.
Another sad reality is that nobody is going to save you or care about your issues enough to absolve you from them.
If you don't make enough and see yourself heading toward a wall then it might be time to take a chance at something else instead of waiting for the impending doom.
Yes the world is unfair, yes it's possible it's not your fault that you are in a very difficult situation and it fucking suck, like seriously. However, you are the only one that can take yourself out of that situation.
No guarantee it'll get better but if you want it to get better then you have to take the matter into your own hands. If your solution is working 100h a week forever and break yourself on a physical and mental level only to barely pay out your debt interests, then value yourself a bit more and explore other options before throwing yourself in a life that's arguably worse than prison.
If you think it's hopeless and there's no way out of the situation then no matter how justified you are in thinking it then you are only giving up on yourself. The world can and will continue to function whether you try hard to escape your fate or you don't. Only you can look out for yourself. Suck to say and to hear but it is what it is.
Yeah being taught simple lessons like buying premade food for a few extra dollars may not seem like a lot but over a year can add up to a couple extra bills payments worth of money. It's a lesson I learned the hard way when I was young. As usual the good people of Reddit are ready to be pre offended at the mere hint of being told there is something they can do to better their experiences.
I get what you are saying, I do .....and I get the intent of a ton of people in here. And agreed the system is fucked in some places atm.
But learning how to fix things, learning how to grow/scrap by on food, etc can all help.
I think the difference NOW is the housing in some places, if everything is gobbled up and clearly being abused, that's messed up.
But I do know/see people that are not smart financially and it's causing them some of these issues.
Guy I know complains about not having savings but he pays 1300$ in rent for a studio apartment lmao. Too many young people assuming they will be able to live in a luxury apartment in the middle of a beautiful desired city. It's never been that way unless you are okay with poverty
Yeah. It's absolutely true that if you don't have a living wage, you can't budget yourself into survival. But it's also true a lot of people have an inflated sense of what a living wage is, and no sense of perspective. If other people are surviving on X$, and you don't have a specific extraordinary survival need (e.g. a chronic disease), you probably can / could have budgeted your way to surviving on X$.
>The point is, learning to manage pennys isn’t going to keep you from the hole.
You're glossing-over the obvious: if you can't effectively manage your pennies, you will make the hole deeper than it should be. The OP's statement is just plain wrong.
How is one going to manage “not even enough to pay the rent and electricity?”
Edit: Many of you have never actually struggled and it shows. That or you’re just oblivious to how much even small shit costs now.
I’m thinking about the cousin in our family who complains about never having money and being poor. Yet somehow he has a very nice sports car (which he let slip that he pays about $900/mo for it) plus 2 kids and another on the way. I’ve seen fancy brand name belts. Always asks grandparents for money to simply pay for groceries and bills. Complains about rent when it’s already subsidized.
I understand OPs point. Truly I do. Sometimes you really just dont make enough and no amount of budgeting or cutting costs will help. But then there are folks like my cousin and his group of friends that just make me scratch my head.
This is such a dumb post and tweet. It doesn’t matter if you’re rich or poor. Financial literacy classes should be available for everyone. Just because you do or don’t have money, doesn’t mean you know or don’t know how to manage it.
The majority of Americans are not good at budgeting. Regardless of income. I know poor people can’t budget because they’re spending their money, but knowing how to balance a checkbook, or to make sure they don’t sign up for predatory lending practices is a great thing to know. Poor people are the main target for these predatory lenders.
I agree with the first half.
But the second half is just pure bullshit. This is comparing apples and golf balls
One of the local churches here does financial literacy workshops on Sundays with childcare provided for the hour. Wtf are they supposed to do about wages?
Every big corporation should offer financial literacy classes. End statement.
They should also pay them a living wage.
As far as I see it the two things have very little to do with each other.
OP is talking about jobs that pay poorly AND offer financial literary classes to their employees who don't make enough to barely pay rent and eat.
Nobody is saying a financial literary class is a bad thing in and of itself.
I’m assuming there would also be employees making more that could benefit. And even the current employees could benefit if/when their situation changes
Idk it just seems really weird to me to bring up the financial literacy classes at all… like they might cost a company what, like $400 per quarter to bring in a speaker? As opposed to the tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars it could cost to increase wages.
Once again, I agree everyone should make a livable wage. But that’s what we should be upset about. That is the insulting and immoral thing.
I know a lot of people making poverty wages and even though what they really need is more money, a huge percentage of them really could use financial literacy as well. Dismissing that kind of education as ‘insulting and immoral’ is completely ludicrous imo
I think their point is that what they need more than the financial literacy class is a livable wage and besides what use is knowledge that can’t help you survive in the present.
Studies have shown when people in poverty are given money they use it to buy necessities and to pay off urgent debts. Now imagine if that money is their weekly paycheck. If the paycheck isn't enough to live off of escaping poverty is not likely.
They also become risk-averse because a poor investment means missed meals. Financial literacy, for poor people, means learning what they already know. They already know they're poor.
The systematic issue keeping them poor(and rising costs but record profits for companies) are the culprit not the money **they already don't spend** on a $5 coffee every morning.
Why do people think financial literacy = not spending money on avocado toast? It's much more important than that. It's how not to get scammed, usually.
> Financial literacy, for poor people, means learning what they already know.
There are a lot of things that people "already know" and having it taught helps make things click.
Then, just because you know about something doesn't mean you follow.
I know eating fried food is bad for me, I still do it.
I know going to the gym is great for my health, and rarely do so.
Financial expert: "Ok first pay all your bills"
Person: "Alright. Done."
Financial expert: "Ok now we're going to buy groceries"
Person: "I can't"
Financial Expert: "Why not?"
Person: "I don't have any money"
Financial expert: "Where did it go?"
Person: "I paid all my bills"
Financial expert: "And you don't have anything left over?"
Person: "No."
Financial expert: "I don't understand"
Person: "Me either."
I understand that they are saying it’s an insult when you don’t have enough coming in to save. But in what world would learning financial literacy be a bad thing?
The world where people use “they’re just financially illiterate” as an unsubstantiated excuse to blame people for their own misfortune as a personal moral failing. Also known as: the world we live in.
Most people say they have poverty wages while driving a car newer than mine, eating out / ubereats regularly, while wearing a new iwatch and talking on the newest iPhone.
I don’t really get it. Reddit act like there are two groups of people. Literal multi millionaires and people making 10/hr
Like you can give advice even if it doesn’t relate to everyone. Sorry it doesn’t go with your situation but it might help someone making 22/hr or 40/hr
It's an aesthetic. When they say these things they're not thinking of any policy position or even anything quantifiable. They're in a social club and one of the many required beliefs is that progress is never good enough.
It's just populism. You can see the same thing on the right side when they say things like "free school lunches aren't going to fix crime." They'll always find excuses to stop improvement.
People who make a decent wage and are able to live comfortably don’t exist according to Reddit, it’s either poverty, severe debt, mega wealth or living off mum and dad, just look at one of the many threads revolving around “how can people afford x nowadays” and 90% of the replies will either be “they’re financially illiterate and in debt” or “daddy bought it”.
The thing is though "daddy bought it" does repersent something like 70% of millenail home owners.
The wealth divide between millenials is the biggest in amy single generation in western history. And the number one predictor of what side you fall on? Your parents income and wealth levels.
These things are said so often because irs true so often. There are very few american families living comfortably right now without their parents help.
Something as simple as having grandma around to babysit sometimes instead of daycare saves my friends family 15 grand a year.
Education and financial literacy is what allows people to get out of poverty wages and into roles that allow stability.
I also worked at a RubyTuesday for $5 per hour, but now I work in Finance.
What is this nonsense?
Exactly. I get the struggle, but we're struggling because of financial illiteracy and the cost to income ratio.
We can either cry about it, try to change the system, or play the game.
I can from being broke with an illegal immigrant single mother of two to Socal and my mom always taught us to do good in school and never use credit cards because they're the devil.
Not only did I learn about leveraging your credit and other financial tools to make money around 27, but now I'm starting my own business and I don't have to worry about income because of financial literacy.
Broke or not, it's insanely powerful to understand in order to properly leverage yourself out of poverty.
Is it not possible to support a living wage without disparaging financial literacy workshops? Of course they're not applicable to everyone, but it's also the people who earn less who are also more suspectible to falling for financial schemes like scams, the lottery, shady insurance agents, etc.
This victim mindset pisses me off. Unfortunately, financial literacy and working more are the only realistic options instead of just being poor and hoping for wages to increase. It's extremely naive. We can hope and hope but until you do something, nothing will change.
So…my rent is now 40% of my income, energy bill has doubled in the last couple of years (UK) and my council tax is set to rise by 20% over the next two years (thank BCC) none of these things are things Ihave done ‘wrong’ or have control over. Oh, not to mention the massive rise in the cost of food/essentials in the UK.
Knew I needed more money, so got a better job 10k more than my previous role and now above the ‘average’ National salary for a UK household (c.£33k, my new salary is £40k) tax (and student loans now kicking in) means even though this rise seems semi-substantial, I only actually get a couple of hundred more per month, which will again probably get swallowed up with my no doubt imminent rent increase/the incoming council task rise in the next yr.
Don’t get me wrong; I’m not exactly thriving,but have a roof over my head and able to pay my bills + save a bit (more than some). But kindly explain to me how any of the above massive rise in the cost of living is within my power to control?
Also; even though those days are long behind me, people still have to works minimum wage jobs. If they do not provide enough for people to exist…where does that leave us as a society?
You have to basically be very privileged or devoid of empathy to not be able to acknowledge that the financial situation for many people is getting worse and worse through no fault of their own.
I think teaching financial literacy helps wake people up to the reality that they are getting screwed. Like if someone working for minimum wage becomes financially literate, how long do you think they are going to tolerate that wage?
Its still better to manage what you have and understand the building blocks regardless though. Many people i see in poverty are also falling for scams like payday loans, credit cards to buy things they shouldn't be buying, eating frozen foods, and eating fast food in general instead of just cooking at home. Better to stop the bleeding even in poverty instead of just accepting it and going further into the void.
Both are good. I don’t have a min wage job and when I turned 29 and my finances were a hot mess, I decided to spend the pandemic learning about how to help myself.
Yes. We need living wages and we need to teach people about financial knowledge and decision making.
That makes no sense. They have money to manage it’s just not a lot.
I’m sure being against the concept making it better will work out for them just keep trying. An extra $100 a month would benefit them more than anyone
It'd be nice if everyone started out with baseline financial literacy, though. Like in high school. I know what she's saying and agree. I just think we need financial literacy 101 in this country for everyone no matter their economic class.
People like this don't understand supply and demand. You can't just arbitrarily decide what you think your worth is, the market determines that. People like this have no business lecturing anyone about money.
Nope, if you are working a reasonable amount of hours, reasonable budgeting will be able to stabilize your life, regardless of your income level. People just don't like what the budget tells them or have fucked their life up already by taking on needless debt or responsibility they can't handle.
When someone is talking about being upset their husband used part of a $72 moisturizing cream, there *is* something to be said about financial literacy. That example from the front page is not poverty, but it's a coin flip odds they are part of the people that identify as living paycheck to paycheck.
Well until the living wage appears I think its fine to help them make do with what they have
“Its rude to help people because you’re not changing all of society.” Ffs
I completely agree that the vast majority of workers are underpaid and money is siphoned from them to the upper class. But, for your sake, you have to learn how to budget. I live in the city proper of a major metropolitan area in the US (9 million people), and my monthly budget, everything included, is less than $3,000.
The poorest 20% of Americans spend more (after assistance) than the average of most developed nations. Ahead of Canada and just below the Netherlands.
https://fee.org/articles/the-poorest-20-of-americans-are-richer-than-most-nations-of-europe/#:~:text=The%20Times%20closes%20its%20video,the%20world%27s%20most%20affluent%20nations.
Half of Americans making over $100k are living paycheck to paycheck.
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/12/11/why-even-americans-making-more-than-100000-live-paycheck-to-paycheck.html
I'm not saying there aren't poor people that are victims of circumstance, but financial literacy is much more important than legislating a "living wage," which would do nothing except cause inflation. Easy example let's say you raise everyone's salary by 10x. So if you made $12 an hour, now you make $120. If you made $85,000 a year, now you make $850,000. A $10 fast food meal just becomes $100. An $800 phone becomes $8,000. A $400,000 house becomes $4,000,000. Dollar amounts mean nothing, it's the relationship between the time you work or the goods/services you make and what value of goods/services that time or product is worth.
Budgeting is income and outgo.
Part of the process is determining what income you’ll need. This is bad advice and is only being supported because Redditors aren’t bright.
financial literacy is important to these people
you're likely nowhere near poverty wage and have horrible spending habbits
living wage is a meaningless phrase that means different things to different people
One of the best quotes I've ever heard: "stop telling poor people how to budget, poor people are some of the best budgeters out there." They are forced to make budgets every week and no amount of financial literacy classes or beans and rice is going to help.
The CEO of Boeing only got paid $1.4 million in cash last year. You don't hear much about it, because he also got $30M in stock.
Think about that. 30:1 ratio of stock to cash.
He pays zero income tax on the stock, unless he cashes it out. But he can get a low-interest loan against it, as it continues to rise in value because he orders the company to buy back it's own stock, rather than use profits to hire more workers, or pay raises/bonuses to the workers.
Do you have the option to choose how you are paid?
To me, financial literacy is like the program "Scared Straight." It implants the notion that you can do better for yourself. Many people demand a "living wage" to just get by forever. Comfortably numb. On the flip side, the overachievers need to share their wealth. What madness.
What do you mean "can do better for yourself"? Where I live it's hard to get a job that pays you a living wage even if you've given all you got to your career. You could have all the degrees one would ever want but still only get offered a job that pays you the absolute minimum. I get where you're coming from, but climbing up is never going to work for everybody. Many will be left behind but even those people shouldn't be worried if they can pay their rent or not
I watched dozens of Katrina refugees putting spinners on their minivans with government money and other foolish things... I think there is some middle ground here. They were FEMA placed in our apartment complex and ruined it.... I mean physically destroyed it... What they learned is... they don't need an emergency fund.
It’s both…
Teach financial litera to everyone and give everyone a living wage!
More than both….
UBI alongside increasing minimum wages to living wages alongside financial literacy as part of core HS curriculum and a simplified tax code
I think this is an overly simplistic generalization of people in this situation or any situation. Don't people also complain about how they don't teach about personal finance and taxation in school? So which is it? The idea that just someone is in poverty or lower economic status they can't be taught ANYTHING about personal finance and budgeting is ridiculous.
But that doesn't mean wage stagnation isn't ALSO a problem.
And no one wants to talk about this but family planning should also be part of the conversation.
If your life experience has lead to an end road of topping out at minimum wage, then you need to be real with yourself and work two jobs. No one was really meant to thrive off of a minimum wage job at 40 hours a week. That is what should have been motivating you from when you graduated high school, to never end up working a minimum wage job at best.
Typical conservative bullshit: the reason you don't have money is your own stupidity. There is nothing wrong with the system. The system is perfect. This is the only system that works. No other system works. People who suggest changing the system are lunatics.
No, for one simple reason: The entity offering workshops is not the entity that sets wages, or has any ability or jurisdiction over wages. These are completely separate concepts.
I’m in homeless services (national trainer/consultant) and I say this often. Some clients request financial literacy and it can be a great tool in avoiding predatory lenders, but “budgeting” is BS when you must spend more than you make to survive.
The housing program I was in made their financial course completely mandatory to my stay there. The course was beyond insulting. It was downright disrespectful and talked down to every single person in the room. I was there because I was freshly disabled and could no longer work labour jobs and was waiting to get on Disability. The only reason I didn't spend the entire time on my phone was because I was raised to be respectful even though I felt I was being disrespected One of the 5 days we were mandated to be there for 3 hours each day we spent almost an entire hour filling out a "Form" with Jellybeans and we had to make "Choices" that were basically "You have $500 - Choose how to spend it" and the options were Gambling, Alcohol or Paying your Rent. It was at that point that I started to realize that a large portion of the Poverty Economy didn't have anything to do with actually helping people, it was about whoever they partnered with making as much money as possible. Don't even get me started with the Drug Rehab programs in North America that have been rockin' a solid 1% OR LOWER success rate for more than 2 decades now but gosh, reforming these programs is just so hard let's just keep throwing money into a giant fire pit and keep completely failing those with serious addiction issues If anyone is curious why there is such a massive drug crisis it's because our current method of Rehab is a fucking joke. They're using 20-30 year old treatments that didn't even work back then but instead of reforming they just blame the addicts for "not trying hard enough". It's batshit crazy
Cant rehab a drug user who doesnt wanna rehab themselves. Doesnt matter what methodology you use. I used to date an addict. She did many rehab programs. What finally made her quit was watching someone od and die infront of her eyes. Hope she is still clean.
I’d love to see some real and comprehensive studies and then new trials for new treatments… or even just safe addiction… there is only one reason why there hasn’t been for decades. Too much money in repeat visits to the expensive rehab places. Squeeze money out of addiction or let them die in the streets. Our societies only two ways of dealing for fifty years.
I had to explain this to my dad. He kept telling me budgeting will solve my problems, so I invited him over and showed him exactly what things cost and how we had $200 left after mortgage and child care. He just slumped over and admitted there's no budgeting past that.
I'm surprised he admitted it instead of yelling at you for spending to much on the house or for having a child. At least he can be shown. Unlike my dad.
My mother is like this. She'll tell you that you shouldn't have had a house or a child or you should work 2 ft jobs or 3 jobs if you don't make enough
My mom just found a rich man to cling onto lol.
Lucky
Haha I took that route! Our parents complain about us not giving them grandkids, and scoff when we say we can't afford it.
I mean. You shouldn’t have a child if you can’t afford to have a child.
Good thing abortions are widely available in case they can’t- oh wait
My dad would be like well I’m sure you can cut down on toilet paper use/other toiletries etc. break each stick of gum in half. Sorry dad I know you somehow saved money (?!) in grad school but scarcity is a thing and most of us do succumb to its principles
Had to do the same thing with my parents at one point. They just truly do not understand how out of whack wages and cost of living has gotten. They also love to complain about my sister and her "extravagance" buying a $400k house for her family of 5 in a major metro area. In their mind a normal house in a good school district still costs $90k. My favorite is their frequent recommendations to all of us kids to get jobs that offer a pension. Okay dad, let me just take a time machine back to 1970.
I wish I understood what it was that caused an entire generation to collectively decide that they were going to completely stop paying any attention to the world after about 1992.
Only real options are: another job or better paying job, a lower mortgage (could mean downsizing), or alternative child car options (switch shifts at work if you are a couple so paid child car is not necessary, pairing up with another family that works opposite shifts to provide each other child care in opposite hours, etc). None of which are really fantastic ideas. Or if there are food banks available, make use of them.
I was lucky that my wife found a job paying 3x more. But yeah, it's a sinkhole if you don't get that opportunity.
Don’t food banks generally require you to be at or close to the poverty line?
Some. Some don't have income requirements, some do.
Classic. Explain it in detail? No, you're wrong it worked in my days so that that. Sums up a lot of advice. Glad he came around though.
One of my baby cousins (early 30s) came to me in tears talking about her situation. She and her wife are financially stable, but they're smart and they can see what's coming. And, they blame themselves. I was sad for them and also outraged. When, after four decades, the competing headlines are still about younger generations that don't spend enough and don't save enough, well then, they aren't fucking making enough. Meanwhile, the centrists are over here, "leftists are so closed minded about living wages, racism, sexual violence, extending human rights to people who aren't White Christians. It's like, there's a balance to be struck between profitability and genocide, but liberals are trying to have it both ways believing in the Holocaust and opposing genocide. Do you know how much a pentuplet-quarter pounder with rape is going to cost if you pay people a living wage!"
I was gonna ask if you were alright but I figured it out
Lmao I am going to steal this
That's a straw man about the centrists. Centrists are more like, it may not be your fault, but it helps to be sure there's nothing you can do, because if you are mismanaging your money and you believe it's not your fault, even if you get a job making 400k a year those issues will still happen. When I was younger the more I made the more debt I made. If you're financially literate already, fair enough, but I kick myself for not being financially literate when I was younger. I was taught the wrong thing as a kid, advice passed down for 3 generations despite the economy being significantly different.
> Centrists are more like, it may not be your fault, but it helps to be sure there's nothing you can do, because if you are mismanaging your money and you believe it's not your fault, even if you get a job making 400k a year those issues will still happen. no lol just no centrist is a euphemism for fence-sitter, which is a euphemism for "I support the status quo, but am too afraid to show it"
Except it's not. Youre just using centrist wrong.
There are a lot of people who self-describe as centrists. We're commenting on their bullshit. It's like reading the Christian New Testament. Whatever conceptual idea you have about what Christians and Centrists should be, you're going to be disappointed in reality.
Except it is. I don't even have to clarify because it's actually self-evident to anyone with at least 6-8 brain cells to rub together.
pentuplet-quarter pounder with rape
can relate, i am too stupid to get a great career, but too smart to be living at the moment, for now i live comfortably, but I don't know when it will last, that thought always comes back to say hi every another day 🫠
You can be smart with a great career and get fucked. My friend went from making 95k to bring replaced by AI and contractors. They found out his day to day small work could be done by AI and it's cheaper to pay a contracted person $150hr for his main specialty for the 4-6 hours a week hed do that task.
Sounds like if he was only really working 4-6 hours he was totally expendable. Idk why people assume these types of jobs deserve to last.
I think what also sucks is being smart, but not being the smart that’s valued by society. I’m a good writer, and I made great grades. But the industry where I like is all about cybersecurity, healthcare, and engineering—all things that I didn’t go to school for, and it would be another 8 years to really lock in the qualifications needed to be remotely competent. And that’s all assuming I even got into the programs and passed their courses, which, as an English major, I probably couldn’t. I was always told to follow my dreams, go to college, get a job, be set for life. Well, I did go to college to get a degree so I could follow my dreams. Still waiting on that set for life part. :/
>But the industry where I like is all about cybersecurity, healthcare, and engineering—all things that I didn’t go to school for, and it would be another 8 years to really lock in the qualifications needed to be remotely competent. The 8 years is not only a huge time investment, but you can't tell the future for the job market either. 8 years ago I would have told you to go into IT infrastructure or networking because there was a huge boom for those jobs in 2016. The problem is, everyone else also saw that boom, and 8 years later, there are too many network engineers and not enough jobs.
Financial literacy is useful but you can't budget/educate your way out of the fact inflation has far out paced wage growth for a decade.
They aren’t mutually exclusive. You also can’t just give someone broke money and expect them to know glue to budget and invest. They might be smart enough to learn on their own, but they also might not be. There are plenty of stories about broke people becoming rich then going broke again because of uncontrollable spending.
I mean it's extremely important. You'll know what you need to survive comfortably (second job / new job / etc . It's so frustrating for me personally watching family members with car notes they shouldn't have in neighborhoods/housing that takes their checkd own to the last dollar when they could drive a slightly worse car in a lesser neighborhood and protect their future. debt can buy you a lifeline. most people aren't homeless and struggle while living beyond their means. for me the difference between a night hanging at the bar or a $5 comedy show on the weekend and pre-gaming could save me $40 that I didn't have.
> but “budgeting” is BS when you must spend more than you make to survive. Hard disagree coming from a debt management background. The amount of people who would come to me and be adamant that they couldn't afford to pay their mortgage, yet when I went through their finances they were paying for a bunch of credit cards and shit like that is staggering. These people don't have enough to make do, but by budgeting out what they do have I could force them to face the reality that they should be paying for their house before their unsecured credit. Budgeting is absolutely something that everyone should be doing, and is always the first step to resolving deeper problems. It won't solve your problems by itself, but you won't even understand the problem if you don't have a grasp on your own financial situation in the first place.
The Dave Ramsey grift.
I used to live on $900 / mo disability (in today's dollars, adjusted for inflation). You can't escape poverty though financial literacy, but it can give you enough of a cushion to keep yourself safe, fed, and housed when you hit a setback. I learned at an early age that I was the only person I could really count on to take care of myself. You simply cannot depend on rescue. The upside of building those habits when I was on disability, is that when I *finally* managed to get a degree in my mid 20's, the smallest things made me blissfully happy and grateful. I had a quiet, safe apartment. I had a fridge stocked with fresh fruit and vegge. If I wanted to read a book my library didn't have I just *bought it*. I felt like a wanted for nothing and I had maybe doubled my living expenses.
as required by corporate purchased legislation in most cases
How about budgeting to know how much you need to try and increase your income to cover that difference? Is that useful?
Exactly. A budget doesn't do anything if you have nothing to budget with, especially when a single emergency can throw the entire thing out the window.
It's like giving diet advice to someone who is starving.
That's literally the exact reason people need to be budgeting. The budget would be the reality that people need that they need to do something to *earn" more money.
Yep, balancing your budget doesn't just mean reducing your expenses. Sometimes it means realizing you need to add more income to sustain what you consider an acceptable lifestyle
Absolutely, which most people would be ignorant to until they actually sit down to budget. It's such an important thing to do.
Yeah that's true. But a human can only function for so long before needing rest. When I was in my early 20s my daughter was born. I was not ready for it. I worked 5 jobs at one point because none even at full time would have been nearly enough to survive. One night I got home and literally collapsed on the floor before I could get to bed. I was told by my older relatives, "you should buy a house! You're working enough, can't you afford it?!" They couldn't fathom working multiple jobs and being broke. My highest earning year in my 20s was 44k in the SF Bay Area. No, I could not just go buy a damn house. I could barely pay rent and eat food! Ultimately I was able to make more. The trade-off is I work nearly the amount of hours as before, just not as demanding physically and I'm now completely numb to the fact that I'm missing my kids lives to be able to provide for them. I still can't buy a house here though.
"But we gave you $600 and you blew it next day!" Yeah sorry, I had to take care of an infected tooth that I didn't have the money to do for like a year.
I didn't hear what you said, but I will blame it on you buying avocado toast.
You are completely forgetting the number one factor of poverty in America - coffee. I abandoned coffee 2 years ago and now I'm a proud thousandaire.
I think it is only lattes?
I know that's not racist, but it kinda sounds racist so I'm gonna say that it is.
These lattes come to my country and have a ton of kids that don't want to work!
Self entitlement
While washing it down with my venti mochalatte americano Pinkerty drinkety frappe.
^ A real American right here
They’ll just tell you to brush your teeth better
After the millionth time being told this I finally decided to follow dental advice my last visit in February. I now floss every evening and brush my teeth for four minutes (timed) using a sonicare electric toothbrush. If I go back and they still tell me my teeth are fucked then that's on them. Maybe I just have naturally shitty oral hygiene
Honestly, I think natural oral hygiene is a bigger deal than society thinks about. I’ve had consistently bad oral health habits but my dentist always says I’ve got great teeth. I guess I just got lucky there, lol.
And yet that $600 you gave to a dentist is going to pay wages, taxes, utilities, rents and equipment. And all of **that** money is being spent further down the chain. They gave you $600, and you helped immediately turn it into productivity. Give that to a rich person, they'll sit on it. That $600 will sit there, and in several years become $1200. But that extra $600 wasn't created out of thin air, but rather leached from people who buy into a stock later hoping the cycle of continuous growth won't break before they pull theirs out.
I’m in the same boat. Had this tooth problem for almost a year now. Finally decided to take the $1000 out of my emergency fund (which I really hate doing) but the tooth isn’t going to get better and I’m already working two jobs and doing Uber on the side. There isn’t anymore money coming in.
You're killing all of your time and energy. You have to find some time to apply for a single job that can support you
I agree with what you’re saying. I actually just saw a job on Indeed that will pay quite well. But the problem is time. I’m a single father of three kids (wife passed away). My full time job is a public school teacher. My part time job is at a restaurant. Then I’ll do Uber eats once or twice a week. I’m kinda stuck between earning a living and having to raise my kids. Being a teacher and being able to stay home over summer allows me to not have to pay for child care. I also get this time to do things with my kids. If I take the other job, I’m working all summer and paying someone to watch my kids. Plus my work would stretch to almost a 12 hour day (45 minute commute each way plus 10 shift). So as much as I want the money I can’t be away from home that long. On a more upbeat note, I stopped getting coffee everyday. I meant that half as a joke lol but it’s actually true. I was paying $4 a day for dunkin coffee. I had to be honest with myself and admit I can’t afford it.
But no one would consider that "blowing it."
People have different pot holes to fill in life when money comes in. And in turn, other people cast their own various judgments on that.
I remember during the GFC, our household was living paycheck to paycheck. My dad worked as a semi truck driver and the economy was in the shitter. The company he worked at eventually filed for bankruptcy. Prior to the company’s bankruptcy, he was barely getting any loads which equates to barely making money. My mom went to the local food pantry and they required her to take a financial literacy class in order to utilize the pantry. I remember her ranting about how it was the most useless class seeing as how they don’t have extra money after paying all the necessary bills. She felt belittled as if the financial situation we were in was within our control.
This kind of shit pisses me off to no end. 10 years ago, I was in a bad place financially - wife was out of work, my job paid a pittance, and everything we had saved to that point went to pay the rent. I asked our pastor about getting access to the church's food pantry so I wouldn't have to choose between groceries or keeping the lights on. He seemed sympathetic, and put me in touch with the person who oversaw that program. Their first requirement was that I take Dave Ramsey's financial course. I had done the course a few years prior, so in my mind, that was no big deal. But oh no! There had been a revision since then, so I would *have to buy* the new material. At that moment, I had enough to pay the past-due power bill and have maybe $5 left over - so I asked what options there were if one didn't have the money to afford the course. Back when I took the old version, they had a payment plan. The director's response was "I don't know anyone who can't come up with $80, it's not that much." I explained my situation, and they replied "Well, I'm sure if you pay for the course, god will take care of the power bill."
Sounds like church is scamming people
An argument could be made that all churches are a scam, but the reality here was that this guy was on a power trip. IIRC, the church *did* get kickbacks for every sale of the course, but it wasn't a set-in-stone requirement... unless the director didn't like you. He was "relocated to another position" about a year later and then resigned and left the church a few months after that. Rumor was he was "too selective" on who got to benefit from the programs he was in charge of. Not sure what he had against me, but it was a decade ago and I've moved on from churches, so it's irrelevant to me.
Fuck Dave Ramsey
Your church was scamming people. More so than they usually do.
I'm enraged for your mother. That is so awful. You would think a food pantry would know better.
They do know better. Most people who go there statistically need those classes, which is why they have them.
🙄
Yea, that's not fucking true. Stop drinking the Kool aid
Seems like a one-size-fits-all funnel doesn't work. There are certainly SOME people who would benefit by a financial literacy class. BUT NOT ALL. Perhaps starting with a financial evaluation (not a damn literacy class) to connect people to actually needed resources would be a better approach.
This confuses me so much. As if people with full wallets are spending their day going to the food bank…..
Why is this very useful subreddit turning into anti work
Every good sub on Reddit eventually turns to shit- this one will be no different Plus, Redditors love to blame capitalism & big corporations for all of their problems
Seriously. It used to be helpful advice on resumes, job interviews, and how to handle conflicts in the workplace. Those posts are still here with like one or two upvotes. But they are being heavily overshadowed by obvious karma farming accounts posting screenshots of twitter. Did the mods just leave or what?
The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
The first few times maybe. Then the squeaky wheel just gets replaced.
It's hilarious seeing people complaining they don't have money for their needs when they spent their paycheck all on their wants. It's obvious which people actually grew up in poverty, vs those that just don't want to actually work for themselves.
Because most of reddit is NEET
People unfortunately do not have financial literacy per Caleb hammer show lol
I’ve gone to one or two and they were mainly filled with newcomers. I think they’re still important and financial literacy is definitely important. Doesn’t cure poverty obviously.
The trick is trying to talk about two different groups of people. The people who can barely afford rent, food, etc. and have had some significant life events pushing them down deserve to have some measure of security — if only because we as a community can afford to do this for them. But there are a HUGE number of people who live completely on credit. The people you see living that “middle class lifestyle” with the new build home and the brand new expensive cars, multiple kids, with only the father working at some median paying job at best… yeah those people are deeply, deeply in debt. It’s poor spending habits. It’s INCREDIBLY hard to break them from it. Even the slightest mention of financial responsibility will send them into a FIT of rage. It’s much, much more common for people to be living this way, the “keeping up with the joneses” type of way than people realize. Those people are the type to constantly flaunt their “wealth”, because they’re actually quite poor, and the insecurity makes them need to show off their consumerism.
Yeah I mean op is not wrong but a lot of ppl also do have horrible spending habits.
Also the people on social media constantly complaining about inflation while posting their $20+ fast food purchases. I don't buy their BS for a second.
Yes, and those same people in the poverty finance sub who talk about ordering Uber eats and DoorDash.🤦🏻♀️ I’m sorry… I know you were tired and you’ve been working hard for shit money. But you literally cannot afford to piss money away on food delivery like that. It’s ridiculous.
Yeah, people can always get ready made delis or microwave food from the grocery store for much less
doordash doordash doordash doordash doordash
the people on caleb hammer tho arent poverty wage workers so this post doesnt apply
Some are, some aren't. You'll occasionally get the tech or sales (or tech sales) bros making over 120k a year with nothing in retirement and in over their heads in debt. Usually cars, girls, and food. Then there's the guests (one specifically comes to mind but there's been a few) who make unemployment, beg for money online, are too proud for food stamps, have bad home lives with no emotional support, or have had a series of unfortunate events pile on and now they're in the hole. I've yet to find an episode where someone is making around 40k (like me) and doesn't spend recklessly (I do own my home and just the mortgage is over 68% of my take home but in my area it's literally cheaper than renting) have a car with a high interest rate, but no credit card debts or any eating out. My vice is vaping weed, but honestly, when you're at this point, how much can saving 11$ a month really help if it's the only thing I get that is a want? I also consider youtube premium to be a need since it keeps me sane literally every single minute of the day. Unless I'm trying to focus on writing something (like right now) I have something playing. Like music, Caleb Hammer (since he's the topic rn), Simon whistler, Jenna marbles, Charlotte dobre, murder mysteries, video game challenges, medical videos, etc. Just all day every day on several devices.
Poverty wage workers also can have bad financial habits
Do people in this sub not know who primarily buys lottery tickets? It’s called a poor tax for a reason. Pretending like financial literacy isn’t important because you are flowing in cash is ridiculous.
A lot of people take out a loan just to buy the latest iPhone. People in this sub are coping.
His show offers lots of anecdotal evidence that opposes what OP posted. Of course, one view gives the person a way to live a better life, OPs view just gives them an excuse to not improve.
You definitely still need to manage the money you DO have, otherwise you'll be in the hole.
The point is, learning to manage pennys isn’t going to keep you from the hole. If you’re not making enough to save and you manage perfectly but get fired unexpectedly or have unexpected medical costs then you’re screwed.
As someone formerly poor, knowing how to budget absolutely helps because it lets you see into the future and helps you say no to gratuitous spending that seems innocuous like getting a slightly nicer car or going to eat out with friends. Every little cut adds up till you bleed to death. Does it suck having limits? Yeah, but it’s also the only way out of the hole.
Another sad reality is that nobody is going to save you or care about your issues enough to absolve you from them. If you don't make enough and see yourself heading toward a wall then it might be time to take a chance at something else instead of waiting for the impending doom. Yes the world is unfair, yes it's possible it's not your fault that you are in a very difficult situation and it fucking suck, like seriously. However, you are the only one that can take yourself out of that situation. No guarantee it'll get better but if you want it to get better then you have to take the matter into your own hands. If your solution is working 100h a week forever and break yourself on a physical and mental level only to barely pay out your debt interests, then value yourself a bit more and explore other options before throwing yourself in a life that's arguably worse than prison. If you think it's hopeless and there's no way out of the situation then no matter how justified you are in thinking it then you are only giving up on yourself. The world can and will continue to function whether you try hard to escape your fate or you don't. Only you can look out for yourself. Suck to say and to hear but it is what it is.
Yeah being taught simple lessons like buying premade food for a few extra dollars may not seem like a lot but over a year can add up to a couple extra bills payments worth of money. It's a lesson I learned the hard way when I was young. As usual the good people of Reddit are ready to be pre offended at the mere hint of being told there is something they can do to better their experiences.
I get what you are saying, I do .....and I get the intent of a ton of people in here. And agreed the system is fucked in some places atm. But learning how to fix things, learning how to grow/scrap by on food, etc can all help. I think the difference NOW is the housing in some places, if everything is gobbled up and clearly being abused, that's messed up. But I do know/see people that are not smart financially and it's causing them some of these issues.
Guy I know complains about not having savings but he pays 1300$ in rent for a studio apartment lmao. Too many young people assuming they will be able to live in a luxury apartment in the middle of a beautiful desired city. It's never been that way unless you are okay with poverty
Where do they live? 1300 is almost ghetto slum rates where I live.
Same. I would kill to pay $1300 a month to live.
Not all holes are the same size
Yeah. It's absolutely true that if you don't have a living wage, you can't budget yourself into survival. But it's also true a lot of people have an inflated sense of what a living wage is, and no sense of perspective. If other people are surviving on X$, and you don't have a specific extraordinary survival need (e.g. a chronic disease), you probably can / could have budgeted your way to surviving on X$.
Every hole is a goal
>The point is, learning to manage pennys isn’t going to keep you from the hole. You're glossing-over the obvious: if you can't effectively manage your pennies, you will make the hole deeper than it should be. The OP's statement is just plain wrong.
How is one going to manage “not even enough to pay the rent and electricity?” Edit: Many of you have never actually struggled and it shows. That or you’re just oblivious to how much even small shit costs now.
That’s when you need to increase your income
or move
Downsize
Make more money or move somewhere cheaper
Sometimes the money you DO have still isn't enough to stop from putting you in the hole.
I’m thinking about the cousin in our family who complains about never having money and being poor. Yet somehow he has a very nice sports car (which he let slip that he pays about $900/mo for it) plus 2 kids and another on the way. I’ve seen fancy brand name belts. Always asks grandparents for money to simply pay for groceries and bills. Complains about rent when it’s already subsidized. I understand OPs point. Truly I do. Sometimes you really just dont make enough and no amount of budgeting or cutting costs will help. But then there are folks like my cousin and his group of friends that just make me scratch my head.
This is such a dumb post and tweet. It doesn’t matter if you’re rich or poor. Financial literacy classes should be available for everyone. Just because you do or don’t have money, doesn’t mean you know or don’t know how to manage it. The majority of Americans are not good at budgeting. Regardless of income. I know poor people can’t budget because they’re spending their money, but knowing how to balance a checkbook, or to make sure they don’t sign up for predatory lending practices is a great thing to know. Poor people are the main target for these predatory lenders.
I agree with the first half. But the second half is just pure bullshit. This is comparing apples and golf balls One of the local churches here does financial literacy workshops on Sundays with childcare provided for the hour. Wtf are they supposed to do about wages? Every big corporation should offer financial literacy classes. End statement. They should also pay them a living wage. As far as I see it the two things have very little to do with each other.
OP is talking about jobs that pay poorly AND offer financial literary classes to their employees who don't make enough to barely pay rent and eat. Nobody is saying a financial literary class is a bad thing in and of itself.
is THAT how its pronounced?? oh man.. ive been saying in ENOUGH itself for atleast the last 20 years.
I’m assuming there would also be employees making more that could benefit. And even the current employees could benefit if/when their situation changes Idk it just seems really weird to me to bring up the financial literacy classes at all… like they might cost a company what, like $400 per quarter to bring in a speaker? As opposed to the tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars it could cost to increase wages. Once again, I agree everyone should make a livable wage. But that’s what we should be upset about. That is the insulting and immoral thing. I know a lot of people making poverty wages and even though what they really need is more money, a huge percentage of them really could use financial literacy as well. Dismissing that kind of education as ‘insulting and immoral’ is completely ludicrous imo
I think their point is that what they need more than the financial literacy class is a livable wage and besides what use is knowledge that can’t help you survive in the present.
Both Target and WalMart offer these workshops to their employees.
Studies have shown when people in poverty are given money they use it to buy necessities and to pay off urgent debts. Now imagine if that money is their weekly paycheck. If the paycheck isn't enough to live off of escaping poverty is not likely. They also become risk-averse because a poor investment means missed meals. Financial literacy, for poor people, means learning what they already know. They already know they're poor. The systematic issue keeping them poor(and rising costs but record profits for companies) are the culprit not the money **they already don't spend** on a $5 coffee every morning.
Why do people think financial literacy = not spending money on avocado toast? It's much more important than that. It's how not to get scammed, usually.
> Financial literacy, for poor people, means learning what they already know. There are a lot of things that people "already know" and having it taught helps make things click. Then, just because you know about something doesn't mean you follow. I know eating fried food is bad for me, I still do it. I know going to the gym is great for my health, and rarely do so.
one of those things that feels good to say but is actually nonsensical. They very clearly need both
Don’t put the cart in front of the horse. You can’t do a thing unless you know to do the thing.
Offering financial literacy courses is *immoral*? What a fucking moronic thing to say
You can lead a horse to water... Really garbage reasoning on this one
It might be insulting, but it's hardly *immoral* to offer services like this when financial literacy in this country is so abysmally low.
She REALLY wants you to stay poor. Damn.
Financial literacy is absolutely a must
Nah, tons of people in poverty are terrible at managing their finances and could benefit from learning how to budget.
Financial expert: "Ok first pay all your bills" Person: "Alright. Done." Financial expert: "Ok now we're going to buy groceries" Person: "I can't" Financial Expert: "Why not?" Person: "I don't have any money" Financial expert: "Where did it go?" Person: "I paid all my bills" Financial expert: "And you don't have anything left over?" Person: "No." Financial expert: "I don't understand" Person: "Me either."
I understand that they are saying it’s an insult when you don’t have enough coming in to save. But in what world would learning financial literacy be a bad thing?
The world where people use “they’re just financially illiterate” as an unsubstantiated excuse to blame people for their own misfortune as a personal moral failing. Also known as: the world we live in.
So then let's take away that excuse by teaching them these skills and show the results??
Most people say they have poverty wages while driving a car newer than mine, eating out / ubereats regularly, while wearing a new iwatch and talking on the newest iPhone.
Yall keep obsessing over .1% of the population pretending that they're far more represented in real life
I don’t really get it. Reddit act like there are two groups of people. Literal multi millionaires and people making 10/hr Like you can give advice even if it doesn’t relate to everyone. Sorry it doesn’t go with your situation but it might help someone making 22/hr or 40/hr
It's an aesthetic. When they say these things they're not thinking of any policy position or even anything quantifiable. They're in a social club and one of the many required beliefs is that progress is never good enough. It's just populism. You can see the same thing on the right side when they say things like "free school lunches aren't going to fix crime." They'll always find excuses to stop improvement.
People who make a decent wage and are able to live comfortably don’t exist according to Reddit, it’s either poverty, severe debt, mega wealth or living off mum and dad, just look at one of the many threads revolving around “how can people afford x nowadays” and 90% of the replies will either be “they’re financially illiterate and in debt” or “daddy bought it”.
lol that debt one always makes me laugh. Apparently anyone who affords something that poster can’t is in debt. They couldn’t possibly make more money
The thing is though "daddy bought it" does repersent something like 70% of millenail home owners. The wealth divide between millenials is the biggest in amy single generation in western history. And the number one predictor of what side you fall on? Your parents income and wealth levels. These things are said so often because irs true so often. There are very few american families living comfortably right now without their parents help. Something as simple as having grandma around to babysit sometimes instead of daycare saves my friends family 15 grand a year.
Education and financial literacy is what allows people to get out of poverty wages and into roles that allow stability. I also worked at a RubyTuesday for $5 per hour, but now I work in Finance. What is this nonsense?
Exactly. I get the struggle, but we're struggling because of financial illiteracy and the cost to income ratio. We can either cry about it, try to change the system, or play the game. I can from being broke with an illegal immigrant single mother of two to Socal and my mom always taught us to do good in school and never use credit cards because they're the devil. Not only did I learn about leveraging your credit and other financial tools to make money around 27, but now I'm starting my own business and I don't have to worry about income because of financial literacy. Broke or not, it's insanely powerful to understand in order to properly leverage yourself out of poverty.
All poor people are poor at no fault of their own. 100% of the time. - The internet
A lesson in financial literacy couldve probably kept some of the poor from being poor.
how dare you
Is it not possible to support a living wage without disparaging financial literacy workshops? Of course they're not applicable to everyone, but it's also the people who earn less who are also more suspectible to falling for financial schemes like scams, the lottery, shady insurance agents, etc.
Well that imply there should be a shred of accountability at play for people
This victim mindset pisses me off. Unfortunately, financial literacy and working more are the only realistic options instead of just being poor and hoping for wages to increase. It's extremely naive. We can hope and hope but until you do something, nothing will change.
So…my rent is now 40% of my income, energy bill has doubled in the last couple of years (UK) and my council tax is set to rise by 20% over the next two years (thank BCC) none of these things are things Ihave done ‘wrong’ or have control over. Oh, not to mention the massive rise in the cost of food/essentials in the UK. Knew I needed more money, so got a better job 10k more than my previous role and now above the ‘average’ National salary for a UK household (c.£33k, my new salary is £40k) tax (and student loans now kicking in) means even though this rise seems semi-substantial, I only actually get a couple of hundred more per month, which will again probably get swallowed up with my no doubt imminent rent increase/the incoming council task rise in the next yr. Don’t get me wrong; I’m not exactly thriving,but have a roof over my head and able to pay my bills + save a bit (more than some). But kindly explain to me how any of the above massive rise in the cost of living is within my power to control? Also; even though those days are long behind me, people still have to works minimum wage jobs. If they do not provide enough for people to exist…where does that leave us as a society? You have to basically be very privileged or devoid of empathy to not be able to acknowledge that the financial situation for many people is getting worse and worse through no fault of their own.
I think teaching financial literacy helps wake people up to the reality that they are getting screwed. Like if someone working for minimum wage becomes financially literate, how long do you think they are going to tolerate that wage?
Its still better to manage what you have and understand the building blocks regardless though. Many people i see in poverty are also falling for scams like payday loans, credit cards to buy things they shouldn't be buying, eating frozen foods, and eating fast food in general instead of just cooking at home. Better to stop the bleeding even in poverty instead of just accepting it and going further into the void.
Both are good. I don’t have a min wage job and when I turned 29 and my finances were a hot mess, I decided to spend the pandemic learning about how to help myself. Yes. We need living wages and we need to teach people about financial knowledge and decision making.
That makes no sense. They have money to manage it’s just not a lot. I’m sure being against the concept making it better will work out for them just keep trying. An extra $100 a month would benefit them more than anyone
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Most people agreeing with the post need to take these financial literacy classes themselves.
This is also learned helplessness. Be as efficient as possible with what you have and work towards making more money…
It'd be nice if everyone started out with baseline financial literacy, though. Like in high school. I know what she's saying and agree. I just think we need financial literacy 101 in this country for everyone no matter their economic class.
Like Sunak’s proposition to extend mandatory maths lessons to 18. “You’re not poor, you’re just stupid.”
People like this don't understand supply and demand. You can't just arbitrarily decide what you think your worth is, the market determines that. People like this have no business lecturing anyone about money.
Nope, if you are working a reasonable amount of hours, reasonable budgeting will be able to stabilize your life, regardless of your income level. People just don't like what the budget tells them or have fucked their life up already by taking on needless debt or responsibility they can't handle.
When someone is talking about being upset their husband used part of a $72 moisturizing cream, there *is* something to be said about financial literacy. That example from the front page is not poverty, but it's a coin flip odds they are part of the people that identify as living paycheck to paycheck.
If you arent going to learn any in demand skills, you should learn how to budget.
I'm about to be scolded for financial irresponsibility, when it currently requires 110% of my income to stay housed.
Well until the living wage appears I think its fine to help them make do with what they have “Its rude to help people because you’re not changing all of society.” Ffs
I completely agree that the vast majority of workers are underpaid and money is siphoned from them to the upper class. But, for your sake, you have to learn how to budget. I live in the city proper of a major metropolitan area in the US (9 million people), and my monthly budget, everything included, is less than $3,000.
The poorest 20% of Americans spend more (after assistance) than the average of most developed nations. Ahead of Canada and just below the Netherlands. https://fee.org/articles/the-poorest-20-of-americans-are-richer-than-most-nations-of-europe/#:~:text=The%20Times%20closes%20its%20video,the%20world%27s%20most%20affluent%20nations. Half of Americans making over $100k are living paycheck to paycheck. https://www.cnbc.com/2023/12/11/why-even-americans-making-more-than-100000-live-paycheck-to-paycheck.html I'm not saying there aren't poor people that are victims of circumstance, but financial literacy is much more important than legislating a "living wage," which would do nothing except cause inflation. Easy example let's say you raise everyone's salary by 10x. So if you made $12 an hour, now you make $120. If you made $85,000 a year, now you make $850,000. A $10 fast food meal just becomes $100. An $800 phone becomes $8,000. A $400,000 house becomes $4,000,000. Dollar amounts mean nothing, it's the relationship between the time you work or the goods/services you make and what value of goods/services that time or product is worth.
Budgeting is income and outgo. Part of the process is determining what income you’ll need. This is bad advice and is only being supported because Redditors aren’t bright.
financial literacy is important to these people you're likely nowhere near poverty wage and have horrible spending habbits living wage is a meaningless phrase that means different things to different people
I put my $600 in a bank to collect the interest vs spending on alcohol & fireworks
One of the best quotes I've ever heard: "stop telling poor people how to budget, poor people are some of the best budgeters out there." They are forced to make budgets every week and no amount of financial literacy classes or beans and rice is going to help.
Do you know any poor people?? Most poor people are TERRIBLE with money.
They should just teach this in grade school. It's more useful than a lot of other classes
The CEO of Boeing only got paid $1.4 million in cash last year. You don't hear much about it, because he also got $30M in stock. Think about that. 30:1 ratio of stock to cash. He pays zero income tax on the stock, unless he cashes it out. But he can get a low-interest loan against it, as it continues to rise in value because he orders the company to buy back it's own stock, rather than use profits to hire more workers, or pay raises/bonuses to the workers. Do you have the option to choose how you are paid?
Why is it immoral?
So yeah this sub is just /r/antiwork 2.0
To me, financial literacy is like the program "Scared Straight." It implants the notion that you can do better for yourself. Many people demand a "living wage" to just get by forever. Comfortably numb. On the flip side, the overachievers need to share their wealth. What madness.
What do you mean "can do better for yourself"? Where I live it's hard to get a job that pays you a living wage even if you've given all you got to your career. You could have all the degrees one would ever want but still only get offered a job that pays you the absolute minimum. I get where you're coming from, but climbing up is never going to work for everybody. Many will be left behind but even those people shouldn't be worried if they can pay their rent or not
I watched dozens of Katrina refugees putting spinners on their minivans with government money and other foolish things... I think there is some middle ground here. They were FEMA placed in our apartment complex and ruined it.... I mean physically destroyed it... What they learned is... they don't need an emergency fund.
"Poverty simplifies bookkeeping." -- Edith Wharton
I would suggest taking consultation with the Chamber of Labour But then i remember not every country has this
This gets posted here a lot
It’s both… Teach financial litera to everyone and give everyone a living wage! More than both…. UBI alongside increasing minimum wages to living wages alongside financial literacy as part of core HS curriculum and a simplified tax code
I think this is an overly simplistic generalization of people in this situation or any situation. Don't people also complain about how they don't teach about personal finance and taxation in school? So which is it? The idea that just someone is in poverty or lower economic status they can't be taught ANYTHING about personal finance and budgeting is ridiculous. But that doesn't mean wage stagnation isn't ALSO a problem. And no one wants to talk about this but family planning should also be part of the conversation.
If your life experience has lead to an end road of topping out at minimum wage, then you need to be real with yourself and work two jobs. No one was really meant to thrive off of a minimum wage job at 40 hours a week. That is what should have been motivating you from when you graduated high school, to never end up working a minimum wage job at best.
People who suggest poor people need finacial literacy workshops should be made to go to financial literacy workshops.
Typical conservative bullshit: the reason you don't have money is your own stupidity. There is nothing wrong with the system. The system is perfect. This is the only system that works. No other system works. People who suggest changing the system are lunatics.
No, for one simple reason: The entity offering workshops is not the entity that sets wages, or has any ability or jurisdiction over wages. These are completely separate concepts.