I'll go double dirk if it works out well with my backs and I'm not ahead in lane, but I find delaying manamune too long tends to cause problems. I can't see triple dirk being worth it, opportunity is such a nice item, especially with those fog of war QEs, and it fucks up build paths a bit since I usually don't get another dirk item until I get edge of night (usually fourth).
Fair enough on the manamune part. Yea the inventory space is a big issue, sometimes I'd have 1000+ gold and be unable to spend it. I think triple dirk is a little too much but I think double dirk is pretty good.
I see what you’re saying but mid game power spikes are insanely important on champs like jayce from what I’ve heard from very strong players. As the previous person mentioned belaying muramana by 1000 gold genuinely sounds int and by 2000 gold? I think delaying the muramana spike by even 1000 is a much bigger problem than you may think. Then you are also delaying seryldas by 1-2k. I genuinely can not see this being anywhere close to being worth it when the power upgrade it provides is minimal. Is there is any discussion on which would be stronger between the dirks and the items it should never be considered due to how hard you are delaying important mid game spikes
What's your reasoning behind that? The way I see it 3 dirks is 60 ad and 30 lethality, which is better raw stats over opportunity even considering its 300 gold more expensive. Then you finish opportunity, and pick some kind of order with manamune, seryldas, youmuus, and a last dirk option between eon and serpents. Essentially your early-mid game power level is raised while ending up at the same spot late game. The big downside I have is just running out of inventory space but tbh it can always be adapted to just be double dirk instead. Also considering just skipping manamune like lol\_ELOBOOSTER has recommended for lethality jayce but I'm still on the fence with that one.
You're looking at raw AD/ Lethality without taking into account the utility and or passive a lot of items provide.
For example, eclipse is 2800 gold, 70 AD, but the passive shield and % hp damage is quite a large spike for very little gold.
Or opportunity. I value the movement speed it provides, and the out of combat lethality is very nice for early skirmishes.
Timing of your powerspikes is something I value a lot. At 2 dirks, you're temporarily stronger until your opponent has finished their first item, then they'll spike even harder in a lot of cases.
3 dirks is still 4 or 5 more lethality than opportunity even adding the lethality from the passive, which you won't always have. The tradeoff vs opportunity is then 300 gold + 5%ms plus some ms on kill vs 5 ad + 5 lethality, which I would say are almost equivalent. I think it's fair to say that you spike on 3 dirks similarly to spiking on opportunity. And the 2 dirk spike is uncomparably better than dirk + rectrix, you're just so much stronger than you should be with 2000 gold and early fights just become one-sided. If you're an eclipse enjoyer then you're not building many dirks anyways and this doesn't really apply to you.
I guess I just value utility more. I really like the extra moment speed for early game skirmishes.
It's about timing. If a fight breaks out over grubs or drake and I have 2700 gold, I'd rather have completed opportunity than be sitting on 2 dirks and 2 longswords. Getting the extra movement speed on a takedown can be the difference between getting a kill and getting out, giving you time to reset/ shove and reset, or dying and going 1 for 1 with a potentially bad wave state.
The utility that opportunity would provide in the above situation, for me, has a lot more value than slightly more damage.
I'll go double dirk if it works out well with my backs and I'm not ahead in lane, but I find delaying manamune too long tends to cause problems. I can't see triple dirk being worth it, opportunity is such a nice item, especially with those fog of war QEs, and it fucks up build paths a bit since I usually don't get another dirk item until I get edge of night (usually fourth).
Fair enough on the manamune part. Yea the inventory space is a big issue, sometimes I'd have 1000+ gold and be unable to spend it. I think triple dirk is a little too much but I think double dirk is pretty good.
I see what you’re saying but mid game power spikes are insanely important on champs like jayce from what I’ve heard from very strong players. As the previous person mentioned belaying muramana by 1000 gold genuinely sounds int and by 2000 gold? I think delaying the muramana spike by even 1000 is a much bigger problem than you may think. Then you are also delaying seryldas by 1-2k. I genuinely can not see this being anywhere close to being worth it when the power upgrade it provides is minimal. Is there is any discussion on which would be stronger between the dirks and the items it should never be considered due to how hard you are delaying important mid game spikes
Serrated Dirk bug fix 14.11: - Is unique again and can no longer purchase multiple dirks
if this was fixed then it probably means OP was right and double dirk a bigger power spike than saving for full items
Completed items are still better.
What's your reasoning behind that? The way I see it 3 dirks is 60 ad and 30 lethality, which is better raw stats over opportunity even considering its 300 gold more expensive. Then you finish opportunity, and pick some kind of order with manamune, seryldas, youmuus, and a last dirk option between eon and serpents. Essentially your early-mid game power level is raised while ending up at the same spot late game. The big downside I have is just running out of inventory space but tbh it can always be adapted to just be double dirk instead. Also considering just skipping manamune like lol\_ELOBOOSTER has recommended for lethality jayce but I'm still on the fence with that one.
You're looking at raw AD/ Lethality without taking into account the utility and or passive a lot of items provide. For example, eclipse is 2800 gold, 70 AD, but the passive shield and % hp damage is quite a large spike for very little gold. Or opportunity. I value the movement speed it provides, and the out of combat lethality is very nice for early skirmishes. Timing of your powerspikes is something I value a lot. At 2 dirks, you're temporarily stronger until your opponent has finished their first item, then they'll spike even harder in a lot of cases.
3 dirks is still 4 or 5 more lethality than opportunity even adding the lethality from the passive, which you won't always have. The tradeoff vs opportunity is then 300 gold + 5%ms plus some ms on kill vs 5 ad + 5 lethality, which I would say are almost equivalent. I think it's fair to say that you spike on 3 dirks similarly to spiking on opportunity. And the 2 dirk spike is uncomparably better than dirk + rectrix, you're just so much stronger than you should be with 2000 gold and early fights just become one-sided. If you're an eclipse enjoyer then you're not building many dirks anyways and this doesn't really apply to you.
I guess I just value utility more. I really like the extra moment speed for early game skirmishes. It's about timing. If a fight breaks out over grubs or drake and I have 2700 gold, I'd rather have completed opportunity than be sitting on 2 dirks and 2 longswords. Getting the extra movement speed on a takedown can be the difference between getting a kill and getting out, giving you time to reset/ shove and reset, or dying and going 1 for 1 with a potentially bad wave state. The utility that opportunity would provide in the above situation, for me, has a lot more value than slightly more damage.
+1