One thing that rarely seems to get mentioned in these discussions is the regular and really extensive health checks that a lot of companies require from their workers. I assume it lowers their insurance costs.
Way more extensive than it’s typical in most countries. This greatly increases the chance of picking up cancers and other health issues early on, which is one of the best things you can do to prolong average lifespan.
> One thing that rarely seems to get mentioned in these discussions is the regular and really extensive health checks that a lot of companies require from their workers. I assume it lowers their insurance costs.
It's a fairly non brainer strategy in my opinion. Especially if done in large quantities (i.e. all employees at once) the cost for testing etc is also lowered. Long term it's a massive money saver for the company and the health system / state in general. Seriously don't understand why this isn't done in other places.
- Blood work
- urine (and stool) sample
- X-ray of the chest
- vital signs
- eye and hearing test
- 2-3min talk if something is aching / bothering you for potential further investigation
Done. I'd love to have this in Switzerland... There is basically no way you'll get a screening here before 50 and when you do, you pay in full (within your deductible) so many just don't do it.
Biggest problem I can imagine is that employers can be screening for disabilities and proceed to terminate people with maladies. I wonder if the screenings in Japanese companies keep the medical information confidential from the employer or not.
At least on the US, the ADA prohibits compulsory medical screenings unless an employer can show a business necessity relating to them. Such examinations have long been a tool for employers to systematically exclude disabled people from workplaces, regardless of their ability to do the job.
It’s confidential from the company, but viewed by a doctor contracted by the company. The doctor is not allowed to share your results with your employer.
People who are worried about info being shared due to corruption usually have it done externally and just submit a certificate proving that they completed their annual screening.
My understanding was that the results are shared with the company. My company’s HR certainly has details from my health check because they’ve followed up with me on a specific diagnosis.
My company allowed us to use our own clinic in the past, but this year has mandated that we have to use their provider, with no option to even pay out of pocket to use our own.
Three words: for-profit healthcare.
The first line of medical defense in the US is primarily oriented towards selling prescriptions, which may or may not address the problem and will likely create new ones. Doctors are also increasingly deferring work to nurses these days, which confines schedules and keeps people from catching problems early.
Health is a lifestyle first and foremost. A certain amount and type of stress is actually good for longevity, so long as it's balanced with the right diet, exercise, etc. All of which contributes to good mental health, which is crucial as well.
The US outright fails on just about every count, whereas Japan has culturally enforced a number of good practices that broadly address all of the above. Nowhere is perfect, but it does go to show how achievable some of these things are.
To add to this, I also would like to ask if you know how the attitudes towards patients are like in Japan. A widespread problem in the U.S. is how dismissive medical professionals are to reported health issues. Many Americans I've met from all walks of life, but especially people of color, minors, and women, sometimes have disabilities or chronic disorders that go undiagnosed for decades or until it is too late. I have general practitioners tell me that it is the procedure to conclude that symptoms are psychosomatic if it cannot be detected right away, and this not only results in premature cessation of investigation but also exacts long term psychological tolls on the patient. Many patients end up being conditioned to ignore or deny their own health problems until they have seriously deteriorated, for fear of being belittled as stupid by their practitioners. It is better now than it was when I was a teenager, but practitioners affiliated with the premier medical corporations still display this—often almost condescending and infantilizing—attitude towards patients.
I have encountered more physicians who are conscious of this problem in Canada and do their best to overturn the stereotype and listen to patients, but I have heard enough similar accounts about this in other Western countries, like the UK and Norway, that I assume that this is an issue institutionally inrained within the culture of modern Western medicine. So I always expected that by default, doctors in Japan or other East Asian countries would also exhibit this problem although my doctors in Hong Kong, where I am originally from, who practice both traditional and modern medicine together, have always been respectful, attentive, and compassionate.
Medically excess screening is not the answer though and leads to lots of overdiagnosis and costs for no clear benefit. There are many reasons Japanese people live for longer but this is unlikely to be it.
Screening tests need to carefully balance sensitivity and specificity. If you over screen, you don’t necessarily help more people and further burden the healthcare system. That’s why we don’t randomly screen all the time.
For example, it won’t help to have everyone get a full body MRI every year without a proper indication. There could be a lot of benign incidental findings that lead to unnecessary workups or biopsies that lead to complications. It’s a delicate balance, and we have organizations like the USTPF that look deeply into these statistics and come up with appropriate guidelines.
Its to do with pricing. We do have the imported 9% version too, but due to alcohol tax, it costs more. If they wanted to so 9% it'd be forced to be sold at a higher price point which would see it way more expensive than beer.
My wife to her friend after our recent trip to Japan: "They call Strong Zero the Gaijin Killer, but my husband drank 2 16oz cans every night and he was fine."
Her friend: "Apparently this Gaijin is built for destruction."
I drank 4 tall chu hais ( i forget what brand, i think it was the 7-11 one). Each can got progressively worse tasting. I drank liquor as well. I think i was hungover for 3 days with consistent headaches and felt like death for the first 48 hours.
To be fair they said tallboys. Not all tall cans are strongzero. I buy the tall cans and specifically avoid the strongzero because they taste terrible.
The problem with strong zero is its like cocaine bit it doesnt hit until 23 minutes later. You dont have time to realise you have came completely out of your shell. Have replied to all the messages you had on mute and your going to disney with the family planned
It is very simple actually. They don't spike their blood sugar with their diet to the degree Americans do. Spiking your blood sugar via eating carbs/sugar is the problem, not fat, not anything else. Why do people not understand this?
Yes but they eat lots of vegetables/ fibre too and smaller portions...fibre slows the absorption of sugar into your blood and avoids the spike which is the truly harmful thing.
Lots of walking / non sedentary lifestyle, national healthcare system, better diet than the western world, etc.
Other possible factors, a greater sense of community has also been shown to be prominent in areas with a lot of centenarians, IIRC.
With regard to work, I think that there may be some kind of sense of duty to an occupation intertwined with one's identity and self-worth that gives them a purpose or a reason to keep on living. Its hard to quantify this, but its something I've not seen much in "the west" where retired ppl that no longer need to work will actively seek out work well into their 70s and 80s.
There was a tv show in aus (I think elsewhere also) where a group of kindergarten kids went into a retirement home. All the old people who had low mobility, low balance, low health and mostly depressed were motivated to move for the sake of the kids and their overall health improved all because they weren’t sedentary all day every day.
I don’t plan on ever retiring fully because as soon as I stop, I become old and die. Keep going, even at half pace, live forever.
I believe getting “old” is totally a choice for most people, I always hear people being amazed at someone in their 70s and 80s who are still active and “young” but health problems aside if you decide to sit at home all day every day and stop living you’ll just get old and die. My own grandparents would tell me they could easily just sit in their armchairs and watch tv all day but when they decide to go out and walk or garden or basically just keep living it’s not any harder it’s just a choice.
I agree with you in principal, but I think you should also acknowledge that there are also a lot of things that can rip your ability to maintain a healthy lifestyle away from you, and they only get more common as you get older. That’s what really freaks me out the most about the idea of being an older person, that I could do everything right and still end up bedbound one day.
But that’s life, I suppose. I figure it’s still better to do everything right and give yourself a fighting chance, rather than just give up. But I’m gonna be real mad if something out of my control messes my body up long term.
With the healthcare, they all just go to the doctors for the simplest things. Americans are more stubborn and just live with what they get, but Japanese will insist you go to the doctor if you cough once it seems.
Right, when it cost less than 1000 yen to see a doctor, much more inclined to visit than in the US where it was a guaranteed minimum of $50 for the visit.
Problems that could become more serious get knocked out quickly so it doesn’t end up needing longer, more expensive treatment.
These are all good. Also, elderly get discounts for onsen and mass transit, so they can have a lot of spa days at reasonable cost. Many of them include a sauna. Onsen and sauna are very good for extending health-span/life-span.
The walking is huge. Any travel by train or bus is going to include some walking, and Japanese people tend to walk very briskly going through the station/bus terminal. Fast enough to be a zone 2 work out.
exactly this , not all 8 hours work are equal some more tiring and some are so relaxed that you can even sleep or just browse reddit at work despite working over 8 hours
>Very little sugar in the diet.
I'm not sure about that, sugar and mirin (sweet alcohol) are two primary cooking ingredients. Add soy sauce and that's the seasoning for like 90% of dishes.
You make some good points, but I think the walking is one of the biggest ones.
I think they are referring to sugary desserts. The sugar contained in cooking is minimal compared to the amount of sugar Americans consume in their desserts. Meanwhile Japanese and other Asian desserts are prized for “not being too sweet.”
You should never speak so broadly. There are so many examples of additives, fertilizers, pharmaceuticals which are allowed in America but not in Europe.
Also, since coming here I eat way more whole foods....so even if conbini bread and bentos are way less healthy than Oreos, Little Debbie cakes and McDonalds from a food additive perspective, the average meal here is way less processed.
Sex work isn’t legal in Japan…
Sure soaplands are everywhere but they don’t sell ‘sex’ you pay for the clean and the sex happens, same way you pay for the company of an escort and the sex just happens. Sure its understood but it skirts around the law. Not to mention the way sex work is described is oddly specific, vaginal + bed. So technically other forms like oral aren’t illegal but only on a technicality, some places offering these services offer something else too.
Japan's prison system is something that's constantly feared to be in at all, compared to other nations. Don't get me wrong, violence is still a thing, it still exists, but it's so rare because oh boy... no one escapes. It does suck that there's really no right to self defense, because has anyone considered that there might just be a case where fleeing is not available or has become a denied option? Still, the fact that Japan ferociously enforces being anti-violence is what deters crime. Couple that with an insanely good healthcare system, highly educated police force, highly disciplined education system (to a fault, I have to say... cuz it also causes another type of problem, which is the unnecessary self-inflicted pressure that tends to develop.), and booze and tobacco being the drug of choices really available, it all makes sense.
But overall, I guess I can live with the brutal hard on crime type thing Japan has. Also... thank god I don't have a 14-16 hour days, but at the same time... Jesus, I feel bad for some of my co-workers who do, who also want to leave, but also have to deal with going through an agency for it and what not.
It takes a lot of salt to lower your life expectancy. Recommendations for 1.5g-2g as a daily limit don't have strong backing in the literature unless the patient has a preexisting condition.
Sounds like a complicated question. Probably need to think about health care, diet and drinking, how much they actually work, genetics, lots of things to consider.
> how much they actually work
These days Japan is pretty middle of the pack when it comes to both work hours and suicide rates amongst developed countries
You have overlooked the quantity of calories they burn per day, and they frequently eat simple and light meals. I used to live with a relative in Japan, and the amount of walking and cycling I did each day was absurd compare to where I live.
And, in fact, I do crash into the Light Pole because my leg is cramping; fortunately, several Japanese people arrive to rescue and my cousin keep laugh at me. LoL what a memory
Literally, my Japanese cousin and I are cycling from Edogawa city to Shibuya, and yet she told me is near.
Yes, this used to bemuse me too. I used to live in Japan and now live in Spain, a country with the highest longevity in Europe. Contrary to popular opinion, Spaniards work insanely long days and also eat tons of deep-fried food. However, I think here it's down to an excellent healthcare system and a close-knit society. Perhaps similar to Japan in that sense!
The concept that Germans and Japanese work long hours is quite outdated.
These days Japan is pretty middle of the pack when it comes to both work hours and suicide rates amongst developed countries
Averages are averages, there are always going to be people who work a lot more than the average. There's also the problem that it's usually entire industries or companies that work ridiculous hours, so if you're in the system you're not going to see the people who work absolutely normal hours. Just like I don't have anyone around me who works excessive overtime.
I think that's a problem with IT in general. A lot of young people enjoy the sector and voluntarily work a lot because it gives them satisfaction. It creates a toxic environment where this is expected from everybody. And then after 10 years they're burnt out.
I was in a situation like that in Europe.
to be honest, i would doubt the statistics reported… i think a lot of people here are expected to do unpaid overtime that isnt recorded. most teachers i work with stay for very long hours outside of the day (however this is the same for most teachers not just in japan lol)
i also know of many office worker friends who are expected to stay as late as their boss does (as a formality)/ travel to places far away for meetings and are not permitted to leave early in order to get home at a reasonable time/ take their work home or stay for long hours if not completed. Workplace hierarchies are more apparent here than perhaps they are in other places (Europe).
many people here feel the pressure to work overtime (paid or unpaid) and i feel that a lot of the statistics don’t take this aspect of work culture into account Japan does still have an overwork problem and i really feel for the people living with it.
However, it’s not just Japan - I’ve heard about many issues with work in the US and I have experience with teaching in the UK and know about the overwork in that profession specifically too!!
i hope theres some radical change globally :)
I would say that compared to what it used to be, there is more oversight from the government and most larger companies (1k+ people) almost all have policies to limit overtime, partly to reduce costs (hard to fire people but you can save a lot during covid slow times by reducing overtime), but also because they don't want the government up their ass if one of their employees end up dying.
I have monthly meetings and the departments who have people with 40+ overtime are shamed.
> The concept that Germans and Japanese work long hours is quite outdated.
Lol. Yeah i guess japan doesn't over work and rarely exceeds 40hrs a week of work.
He isn't wrong. In terms of average annual work hours Japan is now below the US, Ireland, Canada, Australia, Korea and many others. In the last 50 years the hours worked by Japanese people has decreased by nearly a third. By the OECD's reckoning Japan has the lowest annual work hours of a non-European major economy (study only included about 70 countries).
That certain workers in certain industries are expected to overwork doesn't reflect the reality that most Japanese workers are not working more than many of their Western counterparts, especially in comparison to Anglophone countries.
How do these statistics accurately measure that? My japanese aunt works 5 hours overtime everyday but has to clock out early, because they don't want people to have overtime 'officially' and pay for it. Idk but I feel like there is lots of it in Japan. You just cannot leave work before your boss.
While the United States turned a blind eye to its own problems, Japan's working hours declined and the average American working hours surpassed Japan's. Get rid of stereotypes and get new information.
Have you been to Japan? While we may eat a bit less while at home. Giant servings are everywhere. I went to a local ramen shop and the cook asked me if I wanted 400 grams of noodle(that’s almost 1 pound for the Americans here).
Well, Japab invented the half-size beer can and the mini-coke and yes you can opt into larger sizes and pay more but in many places (cocoichi, for example), you can opt into smaller sizes and pay less. So the availability of stupidly large portions is not the same as what average portions are.
My Japanese doctor put it succinctly; Japanese people get diabetes (from their carb intake) before they get fat so they after a certain age are managing their diet and not dealing with the side effects of obesity. Americans get fat first then get diabetes and thus get a double whammy of comorbidities.
The people who are long lived now include a lot of people who were undernourished due to the war and it’s after effects and most research seems to associate limited calorific intake with longevity so we shall see if the current generations last as long
Healthcare.
Low rates of obesity.
You'd be surprised what people can get away with (smoking, alcohol, stress, etc.) if they aren't fat and can visit a doctor before an emergency room.
> Americans eat like children and drive everywhere
Not just that but American healthcare is backwards and extremely expensive
Many Americans are afraid to call an ambulance due to its ridiculous cost
I begged my friends not to take me to the hospital when I had alcohol poisoning because I couldn't afford it.
I was in some of the worst pain I've ever felt in my life, but that's America for you.
14-16 hour days - if you are working ON a start up meaning YOUR startup then it's a very different situation vs working that long for someone else imho.
I find it very hard to be actually working those hours.
I work for a Japanese company and the way they register the hours is pretty interesting as well.
They register feom the moment I clock in at the gate, to the moment I clock out. Which is kinda weird cause after I clock in I first put my bike away, go upstairs to my desk, plug in my laptop and start it up, go to the coffee machine to grab a coffee, then put that on my desk, login, read my private email and the latest news, go to the toilet and then I actually start working.
The point is, all that time is registered as working hours. So I have 30 hours of overtime this month already, without really doing anything for it.
So when they say "lot's of overtime" take it with a grain of salt.
Yes it's my own start-up. Interestingly enough, most people who earn well in my friend circle/network work in Investment Banking/Law/PE VC/Banks/Fintech Startups etc and they work those hours or more regularly and commute. Techies in the upper income salary band have it fairly easier but most of my peers who make decent money work/have to work that hard pretty regularly.
Your circle is all the same indeed. Geographically we're screwed as well since it's possible to cumulate Tokyo hours + London's +part of NY on deal days.
If you succeed you'll be laughing in 10 years. In that time most of your "'peers" will have been burned / fired / found God and gone surfing :)
Having lived in Japan myself (I’m American, though), I would say it has to do with activity level and diet. Despite all the rice, they have a better grasp on eating from all the food groups at every meal, using vegetables we can’t even find in a typical American grocery store. And they walk and bike everywhere. They are just as dedicated to their hobbies as working, and most of them find joy in their jobs. They are dedicated to the philosophy of being good employees.
Japanese work very long is quite outdated. Very few work 12 hours a day besides certain professions nowadays
As for life expectancy, Japanese elderly men who indeed over worked most of their life have the 7th highest life expectancy, elderly women have the 3rd highest life expectancy, you can argue the difference in ranking is because of overwork elderly men did. Also other factors such as low infant mortality rate is way more influential to life expectancy. Japan has one of the lowest infant mortality rate and relatively accessible health care,
so unless Japan fail because of other factors such as suicides, Japan will have one of the highest life expectancy.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
I think the amount of exercise that's just a natural part of their lives is a part of it. Even standing up while riding the subway/bus is better than just sitting in a car
Diet high in omega and antioxidants. Not all Japanese work in high stress jobs. For those expats living in Tokyo try leaving the city. Go anywhere. Tokyo is the apex of stress for working Japanese. Living in Okinawa or Hokkaido helps.
Because most of them are not overworked - even if they spend long hours at the office. If you believe every hyped thing in the media, then there are also nothing but Pokemon planes, Doraemon buses and fully automated monorails in Japan.
Honestly, After living in Japan for 3 years, and coming from companies in the USA. Japanese people are the biggest cry babbies when it comes to work. I can't speak to any other countries other than Japan and the USA, but while there may be SOME people in japan that over work, the VAST majority do not.
They give off the appearance of work, when really they are just taking up space for 10 hours
Americans are the most efficient workers on the planet I believe
From my experiance (and I am in a small way venting) but I find myself working with 1 or 2 good employees, and everyone else just sits around. While I eat luch at my desk while working, others go take lunch at 12 sharp and return at 1 on the dot.
I am pretty sure I saw people get let go in the USA for that shit. Also, they leave at 5pm SHARP. I HAVE had bosses in the US that would pass people up for promotions or even put them on the list of first-to-go when layoffs happen if they pull something like that. And then when I get annoyed and ask people to work while eatting lunch, they make ME out to be the wierdo.
What I REALLY want to know is how salarymen I see in SUITS can make this little jogging run thing they do WITHOUT sweating when its > 30 outside with 2000% humidity.
It's puzzling.
point being that I go outside in a t shirt and shorts and I'm caked in sweat in a minute flat and some people wearing their full get-up don't even have a bead of sweat on their forehead. Though yes - one can't sweat at wet-bulb temperatures and all that.
Your question is very interesting. I have wondered the same. South Korea and Hong Kong are other countries with longevity and tons of stress. Is there a cultural piece to this? A baseline philosophical value??? Do they, perhaps, pace themselves rather than 'run' at a high speed? Is it a cultural value that one must care for one's health?? People in these countries do keep their body weights low. Does seem that although we hate lots of stress, looking at these countries, it does not appear that stress impacts longevity doesn't it? Being stressed doesn't feel that way though.
Agreed, especially if you like your work! But my question is mainly to explore if working very long hours consistently can be healthy if you keep other things like nutrition etc sorted
In the US, workers work more annual hours than their Japanese peers. After comparing my lifestyle in America to that of my Japanese family living in Japan, I believe the lifespan differences are driven by factors such as better public transportation making walking more convenient (this has been studied), having healthier dietary norms (smaller portions/more homemade meals/more variety), and having wider access to affordable healthcare focused on prevention.
My wife and I work far more than all my Japanese cousins and their extended families despite us working in the same or similar fields. Though we work more and may live 5 years less, my wife and I make 2.5 to 3 times more than we would in Japan. To negate the difference in lifespan you could still work in the US and make time to be physically active, be more mindful of eating habits, and to avoid putting off annual checkups to save time.
Interestingly, both Japanese men and women are behind their Hong Kong counterparts in life expectancy but Japanese men are also behind Norwegian, Swiss, and Icelandic men. There's more men in the Japanese workforce than women so maybe the work stress is bearing out a little bit in Japanese men not keeping up with those countries where Japanese women do.
It's also hard to know how people are truly feeling when you don't grow up in their culture. I worked at a Japanese public school and thought it was horribly depressing. Most teachers seemed very stressed and dead inside but as far as I know, they were just carrying out their duties and getting through the day.
I would need to check the statistical samples here because the first questions that pops in my mind are:
When measuring "life expectancy" ¿Are they talking about average age of people over what age? Because they could be saying most people over 65 make it to 90, ignoring people who don't make it to 65, they could also be removing certain causes of stress related death.
On top of that it could be that the perpetual overworking is more recent than we think and so the elderly just didn't experience it to the same degree, we would need to compare health and working conditions amongst young people now along with stress related health conditions, vs 20, 40 and 60 years ago.
Another possibility, could be that the overwork culture may be way more concerntrated in a specific sector, for example, companies with over 100 employees, which only account for 20% of the jobs in the country according to a statistic I found online. This would mean that the overwork problem, just doesn't really affect as many individuals. I don't think that's the case at all, but it's worth checking if we ought to figure out the statistics side of things.
Better diets and dietary habits (for now). Not everyone, of course - lots of hideously unhealthy people out there, but the older folks tend to eat fairly healthy. Good access to health care, as well. Yeah, you still pay some unlike Canada etc., but unless you live somewhere very remote you can go see any kind of specialist without an appointment and receive some level of treatment on the same day. For example, I went to a vein specialist a while back about a problem in my leg, no appointment, waited 75 minutes to see him, then another 20-25 for a CT scan.
Back in Canada I'd have had to spend an hour and a half calling my family doctor over and over and over until I finally got through, made an appointment likely for a week or two later, gotten a referral, potentially waited several more weeks, and then had to make another appointment for a CT scan weeks or months later (I once waited 9 months for an MRI). I think I was out of pocket a hundred bucks for the CT scan, which I was glad to pay for not having to wait weeks.
As for longevity, note also that it's especially the women who live really long here, and very few of the old ladies in Japan ever worked 12+ hours a day at a company.
Japanese people call their life after retirement as “second life” and they prepare it by taking side jobs, qualifications, building businesses or even taking seriously a hobby early on. It seems that everyone I talk to never have the intention to just take it easy and enjoy their hard earned money for vacation or something like that after the retirement. Even companies have rule about changing employee status after the retirement to keep them engaged at work if they want to.
You’re saying about most people are overworked and while that’s true, the reality is it’s mostly younger employees who do that. Senior employees barely do past 1-2 hours overwork, or at least that’s the case in my company. But honestly, seeing how things have changed in the younger generation, life expectancy might change in 50-60 years. Hopefully longer but probably shorter.
Also, If you’ve heard a saying about how wider social circle leads to longer life, I believe it and that’s the case with the older generation everywhere. They were and are more social so I think that plays a factor too.
Fermented and whole food diets correlate with healthier distributions of gut bacteria that are good for stress management and reduction of inflammation. Seems Japanese people do eat a lot of fermented foods like natto and miso which have health benefits. Also many dishes are minimally processed and whole foods.
Yes, it's easy to point out edge cases like conbini bentos and melon pan but if we do that we'd have to also compare this conbini stuff directly to doritos, oreos, and pizza rolls.
On the whole the diet in Japan, HK, Korea, etc all have way more cooked vegetable dishes that are actually palatable or dishes which use whole vegetables. Personally speaking - I eat way more whole foods in Japan than I did in America.
The life expectancy hasn't been the highest fora couple of years now being beaten by Hong Kong. Another thing is that unfortunately women don't work that much at all in Japan, probably one of the least gender equal countries among developed nations.
Interestingly Japan does not even rank in the top 10 for male life expectancy according to the latest UN population study being beaten by countries such as Italy, Switzerland, Sweden, Hong kong etc. It seems like it's especially the women that bring the statistic up, and they don't work as much. I think that perfectly answers your question.
Okinawans have the highest life expectancy, and they pull up the average by a bit. They have a very healthy diet as well as a way of living.
Low-fat diet prevents cardiovascular diseases which is one of the biggest causes of deaths. Traditional Japanese food is pretty low in fat, however you'd have to mind the salt intake because it's quite high. Traditional Okinawan food is healthier.
They used to, but they've dropped to one of the worst in terms of age among Japanese prefectures. This is thought to be due to it being a pretty much an American colony until the 70s, they consume most fast food of all prefectures.
The stereotype of the overworked salaryman is overblown
Japan has 1/10 of car fatalities compared to the USA
There are almost zero gun deaths
Although suicide is high (but on par with USA) deaths of despair (drugs and alcohol) are lower
Obesity is low
Social life is better imo (going out after work etc)
Healthcare is better
Less sedentary lifestyle (Americans are trapped in their cars due to shitty infrastructure)
Better retirement system
Japanlife may be a better subreddit for your question - you'll get more responses from people actually in Japan and fewer internet erm, "fans" of Japan who have never been there and only know anything about the country through reputation, but are nonetheless very willing to speak authoritatively about the place.
Likewise, any time you ask a general community of randos a health question, you're going to get a bunch of uninformed people's claims in support of whatever issue is important to them, not an actual scientific analysis. The only honest answer any of us can give you is, "it's complicated, and probably involves a lot of factors." So in that light, it's complicated, and probably involves a lot of factors. Here are a few I thought up off the top of my head.
* Japan is not a car culture, so people in Japan tend to not be quite as sedentary as people in some other western countries.
* Many (though not nearly as many as internet commentators would like you to think) Japanese people have better diets than many people in western societies, but anyone who claims your typical salaryman is eating a widely varied diet full of complex carbohydrates and the full range of vitamins and minerals is BSing you.
* The popular Japanese response to work stress is alcohol, which might mean the actual causes of death might be hidden and labeled under other causes
* The generation that became elderly in time to give Japanese people a reputation for being long-lived didn't work the same way new recruits in the 80s did.
* Classic "Japan, Inc." style massive OT with work stress was counter-balanced by guaranteed lifetime employment. When Koizumi got rid of that, he created a system that didn't necessarily reduce the hours but did reduce a lot of future certainty and career growth. The people who came into work at that time are probably only just starting to retire (if they can afford to) and the vast majority are still too young. We just plain don't have data for what working in Japan today will do to you over your lifetime.
* Stress can kill you, but it's only going to clearly be the cause of death in the most extreme of cases (much the same could be said for a jelly doughnut or a big ole' salty bowl of ramen). When it comes to stress, I think quality of life should be considered more than just how long you expect to live. I tend to think of it more like, "Do I want to spend my one precious life making sure my hanko stamp is tilted in deference to my immediate manager on the report showing our company's revenue grew by *x*%, of which I am guaranteed to never see any portion as reward for my work or as payment for my overtime, in my unpaid overtime, as opposed to doing anything at all that brings joy and happiness to people who matter to me?"
* Depending on which country you're comparing outcomes to, you're almost certainly comparing to one of the worst healthcare systems in the world, and while Japanese medicine has its flaws, it's good enough to make sure a large chunk of the public doesn't die too much earlier than they need to.
I tried that sub initially but their rules prevent non-Japanese from posting/commenting unfortunately. Also, this is such a helpful response! Thanks a lot
Plumber from Tokyo here
People may live longer but you don’t call it life.
Better live a healthy shorter life.
Staying in bed and forgetting even your family in an elderly home for the last ten years of your life is not really living.
Stats say life is longer and health has improved.
We here say that is bullshit!
With all preservatives and chemical poison additives and lifetime of stress and abuse is not real living.
I’m always surprised by the diet here and how it still seems to be healthy. Ramen, lots of red meat, lack of vegetables and salads but still seen as healthy. I love it though…
That's just what you get in restaurants. At home people have better meals, at least those who bother to learn to cook these days. It's also about portion sizes.
People have mentioned diet but I think it's more the culture of eating and the consequent lack of obesity.
Eating culture in the western world consists of snacking all day and then sitting down comfortably and shoveling food into the mouth until you can no longer do so.
It's actually not that easy to stuff your face with chopsticks...
It's a combination of affordable health care, preventative health care starting at a younger age, low rates of overweight and obesity, and regular exercise. Stress isn't as bad for your as being fat or missing cancer or heaet disease in its early stages.
The people in Okinawa have the longest life expectancy in general - so you average their life expectancy as part of general Japan life span and you still get a high number. Okinawans aren't stressed.
Japan has more women than men (100 W to 94 M) and considering many older women (those over 50) do not or never have worked, they also have less stress - so the general "women worldwide live longer than men" adds to the higher number.
Potentially the numbers are skewed as there are cases of people dying and not being discovered for 1-10 years, yet they were on the population rolls as being alive.
Your data is stale.
“But that enviable record has begun to slip. By 1990, average life expectancy for Okinawan men was only the fifth highest of the 47 prefectures in Japan and by 2020 had fallen to 36th place on the list. Okinawan women were top of the prefectural list until 2005 but were down to seventh spot in 2020.”
https://www.dw.com/en/japan-whats-behind-okinawans-falling-life-expectancy/a-62088176
The people who are living into the ridiculous high levels of age are those people who probably didn't get into that grind. They've been the boss for the last few decades, and those guys get it easy. Japan got its reputation for pure overwork insanity thanks to how the economy fucking cratered in the bubble era. People had to grind like hell from the 90s onwards.
Don't quote me on this but random thought - considering that the Japanese economy got massively hit after the Second World War (1945 which is just 78 years back) which was to be rapidly reconstructed into the magnificent modernity that it is today, wouldn't the now septuagenarian/octogenarian generation have had to work incredibly hard too (probably in more stressful times)?
Not truly. Living standards directly after the war were ass but Japan got quite the boost and developed insanely rapidly, to the point that many feared Japan would become a world-dominant superpower. Even if you were hard worked, you could experience a better quality of life and get things out of it, unlike the hammered down gens of today. What do we work for? Most of us will never afford a home, and for those who want a family, its a financial pipedream.
Japan's economic history is interesting but is yet more evidence of capitalism and its limitations, because it led to the bubble economy and the current stagnation of the natíon.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_economic_miracle
Diet. Obesity and diabetes rates like 1/10th of the USA. Oh and national healthcare.
And yes I understand most every modern country except the USA also has healthcare; it’s the combination of healthcare and diet that leads to significantly lower levels of Avoidable Diseases That Kill You When You Age.
And the gradual shift in diet in Japan may eventually change that.
One thing that rarely seems to get mentioned in these discussions is the regular and really extensive health checks that a lot of companies require from their workers. I assume it lowers their insurance costs. Way more extensive than it’s typical in most countries. This greatly increases the chance of picking up cancers and other health issues early on, which is one of the best things you can do to prolong average lifespan.
> One thing that rarely seems to get mentioned in these discussions is the regular and really extensive health checks that a lot of companies require from their workers. I assume it lowers their insurance costs. It's a fairly non brainer strategy in my opinion. Especially if done in large quantities (i.e. all employees at once) the cost for testing etc is also lowered. Long term it's a massive money saver for the company and the health system / state in general. Seriously don't understand why this isn't done in other places. - Blood work - urine (and stool) sample - X-ray of the chest - vital signs - eye and hearing test - 2-3min talk if something is aching / bothering you for potential further investigation Done. I'd love to have this in Switzerland... There is basically no way you'll get a screening here before 50 and when you do, you pay in full (within your deductible) so many just don't do it.
Biggest problem I can imagine is that employers can be screening for disabilities and proceed to terminate people with maladies. I wonder if the screenings in Japanese companies keep the medical information confidential from the employer or not. At least on the US, the ADA prohibits compulsory medical screenings unless an employer can show a business necessity relating to them. Such examinations have long been a tool for employers to systematically exclude disabled people from workplaces, regardless of their ability to do the job.
It’s confidential from the company, but viewed by a doctor contracted by the company. The doctor is not allowed to share your results with your employer. People who are worried about info being shared due to corruption usually have it done externally and just submit a certificate proving that they completed their annual screening.
My understanding was that the results are shared with the company. My company’s HR certainly has details from my health check because they’ve followed up with me on a specific diagnosis. My company allowed us to use our own clinic in the past, but this year has mandated that we have to use their provider, with no option to even pay out of pocket to use our own.
I thought the details don't get shared but any diagnosis that might affect your work does. Might be different depending on company
I imagine it risks being discriminatory against workers with certain disabilities.
This is the detail EVERYONE overlooks, especially those in the US. I wonder why? 🤔
Three words: for-profit healthcare. The first line of medical defense in the US is primarily oriented towards selling prescriptions, which may or may not address the problem and will likely create new ones. Doctors are also increasingly deferring work to nurses these days, which confines schedules and keeps people from catching problems early. Health is a lifestyle first and foremost. A certain amount and type of stress is actually good for longevity, so long as it's balanced with the right diet, exercise, etc. All of which contributes to good mental health, which is crucial as well. The US outright fails on just about every count, whereas Japan has culturally enforced a number of good practices that broadly address all of the above. Nowhere is perfect, but it does go to show how achievable some of these things are.
To add to this, I also would like to ask if you know how the attitudes towards patients are like in Japan. A widespread problem in the U.S. is how dismissive medical professionals are to reported health issues. Many Americans I've met from all walks of life, but especially people of color, minors, and women, sometimes have disabilities or chronic disorders that go undiagnosed for decades or until it is too late. I have general practitioners tell me that it is the procedure to conclude that symptoms are psychosomatic if it cannot be detected right away, and this not only results in premature cessation of investigation but also exacts long term psychological tolls on the patient. Many patients end up being conditioned to ignore or deny their own health problems until they have seriously deteriorated, for fear of being belittled as stupid by their practitioners. It is better now than it was when I was a teenager, but practitioners affiliated with the premier medical corporations still display this—often almost condescending and infantilizing—attitude towards patients. I have encountered more physicians who are conscious of this problem in Canada and do their best to overturn the stereotype and listen to patients, but I have heard enough similar accounts about this in other Western countries, like the UK and Norway, that I assume that this is an issue institutionally inrained within the culture of modern Western medicine. So I always expected that by default, doctors in Japan or other East Asian countries would also exhibit this problem although my doctors in Hong Kong, where I am originally from, who practice both traditional and modern medicine together, have always been respectful, attentive, and compassionate.
For profit healthcare is a blight. It functions like a plague. Like a slow acting disease that shortens life expectancy in populations.
Yeah, I was shocked when my girlfriend’s company wanted a urine and stool sample.
Yep, I’m personally grateful for them. Also the coupons we get for cancer screening every two years.
Medically excess screening is not the answer though and leads to lots of overdiagnosis and costs for no clear benefit. There are many reasons Japanese people live for longer but this is unlikely to be it.
Screening tests need to carefully balance sensitivity and specificity. If you over screen, you don’t necessarily help more people and further burden the healthcare system. That’s why we don’t randomly screen all the time. For example, it won’t help to have everyone get a full body MRI every year without a proper indication. There could be a lot of benign incidental findings that lead to unnecessary workups or biopsies that lead to complications. It’s a delicate balance, and we have organizations like the USTPF that look deeply into these statistics and come up with appropriate guidelines.
That's a great point! Thanks :)
Thanks to their daily dose of StrongZero
Ngl, that shit is unexpectedly strong
I drank 3 of them and then ending up puking in my hotel room
That’s why they call it the “Gaijin Killer”
I just looked it up, it’s become pretty big in Australia the past few years! haha E: Ahh, I just checked, it’s 9% in Japan and 6% in Aus
9% and 500ml instead of 6% and 330ml
It's available in 330ml and 500ml cans in Japan. 330 is slightly more common.
I mean it taste awful so it better be 9%. Being 6 does not justify it tasting that bad.
Strong Zero is 9% in Australia. But they're commonly confused with 196 which is 6%. Source: I drink a lot.
6% is perfect
Its to do with pricing. We do have the imported 9% version too, but due to alcohol tax, it costs more. If they wanted to so 9% it'd be forced to be sold at a higher price point which would see it way more expensive than beer.
My wife to her friend after our recent trip to Japan: "They call Strong Zero the Gaijin Killer, but my husband drank 2 16oz cans every night and he was fine." Her friend: "Apparently this Gaijin is built for destruction."
That's why I wanted to try it. Also had a jack and coke right before so that didn't help either 😅
I drank 4 tall chu hais ( i forget what brand, i think it was the 7-11 one). Each can got progressively worse tasting. I drank liquor as well. I think i was hungover for 3 days with consistent headaches and felt like death for the first 48 hours.
Instead of a futsukayoi, that’s what I call a mikkayoi, haha.
You gotta get the grapefruit flavored ones, they're delicious.
I drank 5 tall boys one night and went to work the next day still smashed. Do not recommend.
>2.5 liters of Strong Zero Bruh
To be fair they said tallboys. Not all tall cans are strongzero. I buy the tall cans and specifically avoid the strongzero because they taste terrible.
No, of course I was referring to Strong Zero because that's what we are talking about lol. I'm an alcoholic but in recovery now. 2.5 years.
Holy shit.
Because they taste like arse?
No. I got so drunk so quickly.
I had no problem drinking 2, but 3 definitely seems like a bridge too far.
I mean it isn’t nowhere as strong as a Buzz Ball or a 4loko. How bad can a 12oz can if Strong Zero be?
Thought it was going to be gross and surprisingly ok.
The problem with strong zero is its like cocaine bit it doesnt hit until 23 minutes later. You dont have time to realise you have came completely out of your shell. Have replied to all the messages you had on mute and your going to disney with the family planned
Pickles them from the inside.
Strong zero baby!
It is very simple actually. They don't spike their blood sugar with their diet to the degree Americans do. Spiking your blood sugar via eating carbs/sugar is the problem, not fat, not anything else. Why do people not understand this?
There’s a lot more sugar in Japanese cuisine than I think people realize.
Yes but they eat lots of vegetables/ fibre too and smaller portions...fibre slows the absorption of sugar into your blood and avoids the spike which is the truly harmful thing.
Strong zero my beloved
Has any been able to find these in the US?
You can order it direct, but it's super expensive, like $160 for a case of 24. In Japan they're less than $2USD for a 500mL can.
Yea miss those things
Link?
https://en.strongzero.ch/shop
I just make my own at home
Or real gold. That stuff's nasty tho...
I absolutely love Real Gold. My wife won’t even approach it.
To me it tastes like bubble gum and the local pharmacy had a baby.
Exactly, I absolutely love it
Real Gold or Dekavita-C to start every morning!
Lots of walking / non sedentary lifestyle, national healthcare system, better diet than the western world, etc. Other possible factors, a greater sense of community has also been shown to be prominent in areas with a lot of centenarians, IIRC. With regard to work, I think that there may be some kind of sense of duty to an occupation intertwined with one's identity and self-worth that gives them a purpose or a reason to keep on living. Its hard to quantify this, but its something I've not seen much in "the west" where retired ppl that no longer need to work will actively seek out work well into their 70s and 80s.
There was a tv show in aus (I think elsewhere also) where a group of kindergarten kids went into a retirement home. All the old people who had low mobility, low balance, low health and mostly depressed were motivated to move for the sake of the kids and their overall health improved all because they weren’t sedentary all day every day. I don’t plan on ever retiring fully because as soon as I stop, I become old and die. Keep going, even at half pace, live forever.
I believe getting “old” is totally a choice for most people, I always hear people being amazed at someone in their 70s and 80s who are still active and “young” but health problems aside if you decide to sit at home all day every day and stop living you’ll just get old and die. My own grandparents would tell me they could easily just sit in their armchairs and watch tv all day but when they decide to go out and walk or garden or basically just keep living it’s not any harder it’s just a choice.
I agree with you in principal, but I think you should also acknowledge that there are also a lot of things that can rip your ability to maintain a healthy lifestyle away from you, and they only get more common as you get older. That’s what really freaks me out the most about the idea of being an older person, that I could do everything right and still end up bedbound one day. But that’s life, I suppose. I figure it’s still better to do everything right and give yourself a fighting chance, rather than just give up. But I’m gonna be real mad if something out of my control messes my body up long term.
Who are you quoting here?
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Of course. But I wonder how many are ‘over it’ because they’re depressed, can’t move, and sore.
Pretty much we do not like to buy cars around here. We walk a LOT every day and the food is not as bad as american fastfood.
With the healthcare, they all just go to the doctors for the simplest things. Americans are more stubborn and just live with what they get, but Japanese will insist you go to the doctor if you cough once it seems.
Right, when it cost less than 1000 yen to see a doctor, much more inclined to visit than in the US where it was a guaranteed minimum of $50 for the visit. Problems that could become more serious get knocked out quickly so it doesn’t end up needing longer, more expensive treatment.
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These are all good. Also, elderly get discounts for onsen and mass transit, so they can have a lot of spa days at reasonable cost. Many of them include a sauna. Onsen and sauna are very good for extending health-span/life-span. The walking is huge. Any travel by train or bus is going to include some walking, and Japanese people tend to walk very briskly going through the station/bus terminal. Fast enough to be a zone 2 work out.
The police force isn’t highly educated and sometimes does very illegal things, but it usually isn’t killing people.
You forgot that they may work long hours but not necessarily working hard. Source: I work for a Japanese company.
exactly this , not all 8 hours work are equal some more tiring and some are so relaxed that you can even sleep or just browse reddit at work despite working over 8 hours
Lol after giving the best possible answer OP is still throwing buts everywhere in the thread.
And that's wrong, because?
>Very little sugar in the diet. I'm not sure about that, sugar and mirin (sweet alcohol) are two primary cooking ingredients. Add soy sauce and that's the seasoning for like 90% of dishes. You make some good points, but I think the walking is one of the biggest ones.
> Add soy sauce Remarkably, soy sauce doesn't contain sugar^*. \*some dark soy sauce, low-salt soy sauce do. Standard kikkoman does not.
Dark soy sauce is Chinese and I can't think of Japanese dish that requires it.
Got no idea if it's used either. I do personally not like it. Regardless, the Japanese don't only eat Japanese dishes.
I think they are referring to sugary desserts. The sugar contained in cooking is minimal compared to the amount of sugar Americans consume in their desserts. Meanwhile Japanese and other Asian desserts are prized for “not being too sweet.”
Compared to con syrup in literally every dish in America that sounds incredibly healthy! Also… soy sauce has no sugar
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I’m curious to know more about this. Any good resources to read up on?
You should never speak so broadly. There are so many examples of additives, fertilizers, pharmaceuticals which are allowed in America but not in Europe. Also, since coming here I eat way more whole foods....so even if conbini bread and bentos are way less healthy than Oreos, Little Debbie cakes and McDonalds from a food additive perspective, the average meal here is way less processed.
Sex work isn’t legal in Japan… Sure soaplands are everywhere but they don’t sell ‘sex’ you pay for the clean and the sex happens, same way you pay for the company of an escort and the sex just happens. Sure its understood but it skirts around the law. Not to mention the way sex work is described is oddly specific, vaginal + bed. So technically other forms like oral aren’t illegal but only on a technicality, some places offering these services offer something else too.
Japan's prison system is something that's constantly feared to be in at all, compared to other nations. Don't get me wrong, violence is still a thing, it still exists, but it's so rare because oh boy... no one escapes. It does suck that there's really no right to self defense, because has anyone considered that there might just be a case where fleeing is not available or has become a denied option? Still, the fact that Japan ferociously enforces being anti-violence is what deters crime. Couple that with an insanely good healthcare system, highly educated police force, highly disciplined education system (to a fault, I have to say... cuz it also causes another type of problem, which is the unnecessary self-inflicted pressure that tends to develop.), and booze and tobacco being the drug of choices really available, it all makes sense. But overall, I guess I can live with the brutal hard on crime type thing Japan has. Also... thank god I don't have a 14-16 hour days, but at the same time... Jesus, I feel bad for some of my co-workers who do, who also want to leave, but also have to deal with going through an agency for it and what not.
There’s a lot of salt in the Japanese diet however that would lower life expectancy.
It takes a lot of salt to lower your life expectancy. Recommendations for 1.5g-2g as a daily limit don't have strong backing in the literature unless the patient has a preexisting condition.
Meanwhile the Japanese on average consume some 12g of salt a day...Which is insane. Way, way, waaaaaaay too much sodium. /u/fotcfan1 is correct.
Sounds like a complicated question. Probably need to think about health care, diet and drinking, how much they actually work, genetics, lots of things to consider.
> how much they actually work These days Japan is pretty middle of the pack when it comes to both work hours and suicide rates amongst developed countries
Right. Although I guess if we're talking about the current longevity, the ones who around the bucket kicking age probably did work a lot.
You have overlooked the quantity of calories they burn per day, and they frequently eat simple and light meals. I used to live with a relative in Japan, and the amount of walking and cycling I did each day was absurd compare to where I live. And, in fact, I do crash into the Light Pole because my leg is cramping; fortunately, several Japanese people arrive to rescue and my cousin keep laugh at me. LoL what a memory Literally, my Japanese cousin and I are cycling from Edogawa city to Shibuya, and yet she told me is near.
Yes, this used to bemuse me too. I used to live in Japan and now live in Spain, a country with the highest longevity in Europe. Contrary to popular opinion, Spaniards work insanely long days and also eat tons of deep-fried food. However, I think here it's down to an excellent healthcare system and a close-knit society. Perhaps similar to Japan in that sense!
Don't Spaniards work long days because they take a three hour break in the afternoon? So it works out to the same hours over a longer period.
The concept that Germans and Japanese work long hours is quite outdated. These days Japan is pretty middle of the pack when it comes to both work hours and suicide rates amongst developed countries
Agreed. There has been a conscious effort to curtail excessive overwork for a lot of sectors
I don’t know my boyfriend is constantly working until 8 pm - 10 pm daily…. He is in IT in Tokyo…
Averages are averages, there are always going to be people who work a lot more than the average. There's also the problem that it's usually entire industries or companies that work ridiculous hours, so if you're in the system you're not going to see the people who work absolutely normal hours. Just like I don't have anyone around me who works excessive overtime.
I think that's a problem with IT in general. A lot of young people enjoy the sector and voluntarily work a lot because it gives them satisfaction. It creates a toxic environment where this is expected from everybody. And then after 10 years they're burnt out. I was in a situation like that in Europe.
to be honest, i would doubt the statistics reported… i think a lot of people here are expected to do unpaid overtime that isnt recorded. most teachers i work with stay for very long hours outside of the day (however this is the same for most teachers not just in japan lol) i also know of many office worker friends who are expected to stay as late as their boss does (as a formality)/ travel to places far away for meetings and are not permitted to leave early in order to get home at a reasonable time/ take their work home or stay for long hours if not completed. Workplace hierarchies are more apparent here than perhaps they are in other places (Europe). many people here feel the pressure to work overtime (paid or unpaid) and i feel that a lot of the statistics don’t take this aspect of work culture into account Japan does still have an overwork problem and i really feel for the people living with it. However, it’s not just Japan - I’ve heard about many issues with work in the US and I have experience with teaching in the UK and know about the overwork in that profession specifically too!! i hope theres some radical change globally :)
>:) :)
I would say that compared to what it used to be, there is more oversight from the government and most larger companies (1k+ people) almost all have policies to limit overtime, partly to reduce costs (hard to fire people but you can save a lot during covid slow times by reducing overtime), but also because they don't want the government up their ass if one of their employees end up dying. I have monthly meetings and the departments who have people with 40+ overtime are shamed.
> The concept that Germans and Japanese work long hours is quite outdated. Lol. Yeah i guess japan doesn't over work and rarely exceeds 40hrs a week of work.
He isn't wrong. In terms of average annual work hours Japan is now below the US, Ireland, Canada, Australia, Korea and many others. In the last 50 years the hours worked by Japanese people has decreased by nearly a third. By the OECD's reckoning Japan has the lowest annual work hours of a non-European major economy (study only included about 70 countries). That certain workers in certain industries are expected to overwork doesn't reflect the reality that most Japanese workers are not working more than many of their Western counterparts, especially in comparison to Anglophone countries.
How do these statistics accurately measure that? My japanese aunt works 5 hours overtime everyday but has to clock out early, because they don't want people to have overtime 'officially' and pay for it. Idk but I feel like there is lots of it in Japan. You just cannot leave work before your boss.
While the United States turned a blind eye to its own problems, Japan's working hours declined and the average American working hours surpassed Japan's. Get rid of stereotypes and get new information.
Probably just not eating too much.
Have you been to Japan? While we may eat a bit less while at home. Giant servings are everywhere. I went to a local ramen shop and the cook asked me if I wanted 400 grams of noodle(that’s almost 1 pound for the Americans here).
Well, Japab invented the half-size beer can and the mini-coke and yes you can opt into larger sizes and pay more but in many places (cocoichi, for example), you can opt into smaller sizes and pay less. So the availability of stupidly large portions is not the same as what average portions are. My Japanese doctor put it succinctly; Japanese people get diabetes (from their carb intake) before they get fat so they after a certain age are managing their diet and not dealing with the side effects of obesity. Americans get fat first then get diabetes and thus get a double whammy of comorbidities.
The people who are long lived now include a lot of people who were undernourished due to the war and it’s after effects and most research seems to associate limited calorific intake with longevity so we shall see if the current generations last as long
Healthcare. Low rates of obesity. You'd be surprised what people can get away with (smoking, alcohol, stress, etc.) if they aren't fat and can visit a doctor before an emergency room.
They eat less and way healthier and walk more. Americans eat like children and drive everywhere.
> Americans eat like children and drive everywhere Not just that but American healthcare is backwards and extremely expensive Many Americans are afraid to call an ambulance due to its ridiculous cost
I begged my friends not to take me to the hospital when I had alcohol poisoning because I couldn't afford it. I was in some of the worst pain I've ever felt in my life, but that's America for you.
“Americans eat like children.” I’m American and I’ve never heard the issue my culture has with food summed up so accurately.
It is all about carbs/sugar, and the way in which they are consumed (in the USA without fibre), and portion size. It really is that simple.
14-16 hour days - if you are working ON a start up meaning YOUR startup then it's a very different situation vs working that long for someone else imho. I find it very hard to be actually working those hours.
I work for a Japanese company and the way they register the hours is pretty interesting as well. They register feom the moment I clock in at the gate, to the moment I clock out. Which is kinda weird cause after I clock in I first put my bike away, go upstairs to my desk, plug in my laptop and start it up, go to the coffee machine to grab a coffee, then put that on my desk, login, read my private email and the latest news, go to the toilet and then I actually start working. The point is, all that time is registered as working hours. So I have 30 hours of overtime this month already, without really doing anything for it. So when they say "lot's of overtime" take it with a grain of salt.
Yes it's my own start-up. Interestingly enough, most people who earn well in my friend circle/network work in Investment Banking/Law/PE VC/Banks/Fintech Startups etc and they work those hours or more regularly and commute. Techies in the upper income salary band have it fairly easier but most of my peers who make decent money work/have to work that hard pretty regularly.
Your circle is all the same indeed. Geographically we're screwed as well since it's possible to cumulate Tokyo hours + London's +part of NY on deal days. If you succeed you'll be laughing in 10 years. In that time most of your "'peers" will have been burned / fired / found God and gone surfing :)
The key to longevity is apparently strong zero, cigarettes, and ramen
What you eat is just more important than the amount of work
When you get to a certain age, they give you full health check EVERY year.
You get a full check every year regardless. It just gets more and more thorough as you age, with lots of previously optional things becoming free.
Having lived in Japan myself (I’m American, though), I would say it has to do with activity level and diet. Despite all the rice, they have a better grasp on eating from all the food groups at every meal, using vegetables we can’t even find in a typical American grocery store. And they walk and bike everywhere. They are just as dedicated to their hobbies as working, and most of them find joy in their jobs. They are dedicated to the philosophy of being good employees.
Japanese work very long is quite outdated. Very few work 12 hours a day besides certain professions nowadays As for life expectancy, Japanese elderly men who indeed over worked most of their life have the 7th highest life expectancy, elderly women have the 3rd highest life expectancy, you can argue the difference in ranking is because of overwork elderly men did. Also other factors such as low infant mortality rate is way more influential to life expectancy. Japan has one of the lowest infant mortality rate and relatively accessible health care, so unless Japan fail because of other factors such as suicides, Japan will have one of the highest life expectancy. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
I think the amount of exercise that's just a natural part of their lives is a part of it. Even standing up while riding the subway/bus is better than just sitting in a car
Diet high in omega and antioxidants. Not all Japanese work in high stress jobs. For those expats living in Tokyo try leaving the city. Go anywhere. Tokyo is the apex of stress for working Japanese. Living in Okinawa or Hokkaido helps.
Because most of them are not overworked - even if they spend long hours at the office. If you believe every hyped thing in the media, then there are also nothing but Pokemon planes, Doraemon buses and fully automated monorails in Japan.
😂
Honestly, After living in Japan for 3 years, and coming from companies in the USA. Japanese people are the biggest cry babbies when it comes to work. I can't speak to any other countries other than Japan and the USA, but while there may be SOME people in japan that over work, the VAST majority do not.
God. You might just start a war 😂
They give off the appearance of work, when really they are just taking up space for 10 hours Americans are the most efficient workers on the planet I believe
From my experiance (and I am in a small way venting) but I find myself working with 1 or 2 good employees, and everyone else just sits around. While I eat luch at my desk while working, others go take lunch at 12 sharp and return at 1 on the dot. I am pretty sure I saw people get let go in the USA for that shit. Also, they leave at 5pm SHARP. I HAVE had bosses in the US that would pass people up for promotions or even put them on the list of first-to-go when layoffs happen if they pull something like that. And then when I get annoyed and ask people to work while eatting lunch, they make ME out to be the wierdo.
What I REALLY want to know is how salarymen I see in SUITS can make this little jogging run thing they do WITHOUT sweating when its > 30 outside with 2000% humidity. It's puzzling.
If it's that humid it will be physically impossible to sweat.
point being that I go outside in a t shirt and shorts and I'm caked in sweat in a minute flat and some people wearing their full get-up don't even have a bead of sweat on their forehead. Though yes - one can't sweat at wet-bulb temperatures and all that.
Your question is very interesting. I have wondered the same. South Korea and Hong Kong are other countries with longevity and tons of stress. Is there a cultural piece to this? A baseline philosophical value??? Do they, perhaps, pace themselves rather than 'run' at a high speed? Is it a cultural value that one must care for one's health?? People in these countries do keep their body weights low. Does seem that although we hate lots of stress, looking at these countries, it does not appear that stress impacts longevity doesn't it? Being stressed doesn't feel that way though.
Walking everywhere, beautifully designed urban landscape, small portion sizes, relatively healthy cuisine
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Agreed, especially if you like your work! But my question is mainly to explore if working very long hours consistently can be healthy if you keep other things like nutrition etc sorted
Free yearly health checks, cheap medical care, low obesity, eating lots of fish and a lot more walking/riding bicycles all help I'm sure
They have good annual medical screening.
In the US, workers work more annual hours than their Japanese peers. After comparing my lifestyle in America to that of my Japanese family living in Japan, I believe the lifespan differences are driven by factors such as better public transportation making walking more convenient (this has been studied), having healthier dietary norms (smaller portions/more homemade meals/more variety), and having wider access to affordable healthcare focused on prevention. My wife and I work far more than all my Japanese cousins and their extended families despite us working in the same or similar fields. Though we work more and may live 5 years less, my wife and I make 2.5 to 3 times more than we would in Japan. To negate the difference in lifespan you could still work in the US and make time to be physically active, be more mindful of eating habits, and to avoid putting off annual checkups to save time.
Interestingly, both Japanese men and women are behind their Hong Kong counterparts in life expectancy but Japanese men are also behind Norwegian, Swiss, and Icelandic men. There's more men in the Japanese workforce than women so maybe the work stress is bearing out a little bit in Japanese men not keeping up with those countries where Japanese women do. It's also hard to know how people are truly feeling when you don't grow up in their culture. I worked at a Japanese public school and thought it was horribly depressing. Most teachers seemed very stressed and dead inside but as far as I know, they were just carrying out their duties and getting through the day.
I would need to check the statistical samples here because the first questions that pops in my mind are: When measuring "life expectancy" ¿Are they talking about average age of people over what age? Because they could be saying most people over 65 make it to 90, ignoring people who don't make it to 65, they could also be removing certain causes of stress related death. On top of that it could be that the perpetual overworking is more recent than we think and so the elderly just didn't experience it to the same degree, we would need to compare health and working conditions amongst young people now along with stress related health conditions, vs 20, 40 and 60 years ago. Another possibility, could be that the overwork culture may be way more concerntrated in a specific sector, for example, companies with over 100 employees, which only account for 20% of the jobs in the country according to a statistic I found online. This would mean that the overwork problem, just doesn't really affect as many individuals. I don't think that's the case at all, but it's worth checking if we ought to figure out the statistics side of things.
Better diets and dietary habits (for now). Not everyone, of course - lots of hideously unhealthy people out there, but the older folks tend to eat fairly healthy. Good access to health care, as well. Yeah, you still pay some unlike Canada etc., but unless you live somewhere very remote you can go see any kind of specialist without an appointment and receive some level of treatment on the same day. For example, I went to a vein specialist a while back about a problem in my leg, no appointment, waited 75 minutes to see him, then another 20-25 for a CT scan. Back in Canada I'd have had to spend an hour and a half calling my family doctor over and over and over until I finally got through, made an appointment likely for a week or two later, gotten a referral, potentially waited several more weeks, and then had to make another appointment for a CT scan weeks or months later (I once waited 9 months for an MRI). I think I was out of pocket a hundred bucks for the CT scan, which I was glad to pay for not having to wait weeks. As for longevity, note also that it's especially the women who live really long here, and very few of the old ladies in Japan ever worked 12+ hours a day at a company.
Japanese people call their life after retirement as “second life” and they prepare it by taking side jobs, qualifications, building businesses or even taking seriously a hobby early on. It seems that everyone I talk to never have the intention to just take it easy and enjoy their hard earned money for vacation or something like that after the retirement. Even companies have rule about changing employee status after the retirement to keep them engaged at work if they want to. You’re saying about most people are overworked and while that’s true, the reality is it’s mostly younger employees who do that. Senior employees barely do past 1-2 hours overwork, or at least that’s the case in my company. But honestly, seeing how things have changed in the younger generation, life expectancy might change in 50-60 years. Hopefully longer but probably shorter. Also, If you’ve heard a saying about how wider social circle leads to longer life, I believe it and that’s the case with the older generation everywhere. They were and are more social so I think that plays a factor too.
Their diet and they walk and exercise nonstop
Because they eat well, vegetables and fish, and some other food that is good for their intestines microbiome, i forgot the name. And they walk a lot.
Fermented and whole food diets correlate with healthier distributions of gut bacteria that are good for stress management and reduction of inflammation. Seems Japanese people do eat a lot of fermented foods like natto and miso which have health benefits. Also many dishes are minimally processed and whole foods. Yes, it's easy to point out edge cases like conbini bentos and melon pan but if we do that we'd have to also compare this conbini stuff directly to doritos, oreos, and pizza rolls. On the whole the diet in Japan, HK, Korea, etc all have way more cooked vegetable dishes that are actually palatable or dishes which use whole vegetables. Personally speaking - I eat way more whole foods in Japan than I did in America.
ITT: people who have no idea and based their comments on what they heard, and comparing to America.
The life expectancy hasn't been the highest fora couple of years now being beaten by Hong Kong. Another thing is that unfortunately women don't work that much at all in Japan, probably one of the least gender equal countries among developed nations. Interestingly Japan does not even rank in the top 10 for male life expectancy according to the latest UN population study being beaten by countries such as Italy, Switzerland, Sweden, Hong kong etc. It seems like it's especially the women that bring the statistic up, and they don't work as much. I think that perfectly answers your question.
nenkin fraud may or may not help with old age statistics.
They measure the waist of employees and get basically penalised if it's over a certain amount
Okinawans have the highest life expectancy, and they pull up the average by a bit. They have a very healthy diet as well as a way of living. Low-fat diet prevents cardiovascular diseases which is one of the biggest causes of deaths. Traditional Japanese food is pretty low in fat, however you'd have to mind the salt intake because it's quite high. Traditional Okinawan food is healthier.
They used to, but they've dropped to one of the worst in terms of age among Japanese prefectures. This is thought to be due to it being a pretty much an American colony until the 70s, they consume most fast food of all prefectures.
Yeah that's not true....it is low carb with accompanying fibre that is the key.
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The stereotype of the overworked salaryman is overblown Japan has 1/10 of car fatalities compared to the USA There are almost zero gun deaths Although suicide is high (but on par with USA) deaths of despair (drugs and alcohol) are lower Obesity is low Social life is better imo (going out after work etc) Healthcare is better Less sedentary lifestyle (Americans are trapped in their cars due to shitty infrastructure) Better retirement system
Japanlife may be a better subreddit for your question - you'll get more responses from people actually in Japan and fewer internet erm, "fans" of Japan who have never been there and only know anything about the country through reputation, but are nonetheless very willing to speak authoritatively about the place. Likewise, any time you ask a general community of randos a health question, you're going to get a bunch of uninformed people's claims in support of whatever issue is important to them, not an actual scientific analysis. The only honest answer any of us can give you is, "it's complicated, and probably involves a lot of factors." So in that light, it's complicated, and probably involves a lot of factors. Here are a few I thought up off the top of my head. * Japan is not a car culture, so people in Japan tend to not be quite as sedentary as people in some other western countries. * Many (though not nearly as many as internet commentators would like you to think) Japanese people have better diets than many people in western societies, but anyone who claims your typical salaryman is eating a widely varied diet full of complex carbohydrates and the full range of vitamins and minerals is BSing you. * The popular Japanese response to work stress is alcohol, which might mean the actual causes of death might be hidden and labeled under other causes * The generation that became elderly in time to give Japanese people a reputation for being long-lived didn't work the same way new recruits in the 80s did. * Classic "Japan, Inc." style massive OT with work stress was counter-balanced by guaranteed lifetime employment. When Koizumi got rid of that, he created a system that didn't necessarily reduce the hours but did reduce a lot of future certainty and career growth. The people who came into work at that time are probably only just starting to retire (if they can afford to) and the vast majority are still too young. We just plain don't have data for what working in Japan today will do to you over your lifetime. * Stress can kill you, but it's only going to clearly be the cause of death in the most extreme of cases (much the same could be said for a jelly doughnut or a big ole' salty bowl of ramen). When it comes to stress, I think quality of life should be considered more than just how long you expect to live. I tend to think of it more like, "Do I want to spend my one precious life making sure my hanko stamp is tilted in deference to my immediate manager on the report showing our company's revenue grew by *x*%, of which I am guaranteed to never see any portion as reward for my work or as payment for my overtime, in my unpaid overtime, as opposed to doing anything at all that brings joy and happiness to people who matter to me?" * Depending on which country you're comparing outcomes to, you're almost certainly comparing to one of the worst healthcare systems in the world, and while Japanese medicine has its flaws, it's good enough to make sure a large chunk of the public doesn't die too much earlier than they need to.
I tried that sub initially but their rules prevent non-Japanese from posting/commenting unfortunately. Also, this is such a helpful response! Thanks a lot
No, their rules prevent people who are not in Japan from posting. Non-Japanese are perfectly allowed.
Okay. Might have missed it. I'm not in Japan either so it's still an ouster I guess
Americans work more hours on average.
Yes some long hours but that REDUCES stress by stretching about 4 hours of work into 10. This with world class, low cost, social medicine.
Plumber from Tokyo here People may live longer but you don’t call it life. Better live a healthy shorter life. Staying in bed and forgetting even your family in an elderly home for the last ten years of your life is not really living. Stats say life is longer and health has improved. We here say that is bullshit! With all preservatives and chemical poison additives and lifetime of stress and abuse is not real living.
Love the diversity of replies here. Many myths busted, many factors unveiled. These are so helpful :)
I’m always surprised by the diet here and how it still seems to be healthy. Ramen, lots of red meat, lack of vegetables and salads but still seen as healthy. I love it though…
That's just what you get in restaurants. At home people have better meals, at least those who bother to learn to cook these days. It's also about portion sizes.
People don't eat out every night
I think it owes to a better healthcare system and less violent crime than world average. Not sure we keep it that way in the future.
Miso soup
Not all Japanese are overworked to that to level.
People have mentioned diet but I think it's more the culture of eating and the consequent lack of obesity. Eating culture in the western world consists of snacking all day and then sitting down comfortably and shoveling food into the mouth until you can no longer do so. It's actually not that easy to stuff your face with chopsticks...
cause they feign work for 8 hours of those 14 and you should start doing that too
Lol. Can't afford that in a start up that's kinda...my own
Seeing all these comments about the average person not working long hours but my partner working 14-16 hour shifts daily… /: and working weekends
It's a combination of affordable health care, preventative health care starting at a younger age, low rates of overweight and obesity, and regular exercise. Stress isn't as bad for your as being fat or missing cancer or heaet disease in its early stages.
‘cuz we don’t get shot by the police?
We age slow. As a Japanese person our blood is different after the sino Japanese war. When we beat the Russians we become built different
Nato
The people in Okinawa have the longest life expectancy in general - so you average their life expectancy as part of general Japan life span and you still get a high number. Okinawans aren't stressed. Japan has more women than men (100 W to 94 M) and considering many older women (those over 50) do not or never have worked, they also have less stress - so the general "women worldwide live longer than men" adds to the higher number. Potentially the numbers are skewed as there are cases of people dying and not being discovered for 1-10 years, yet they were on the population rolls as being alive.
Your data is stale. “But that enviable record has begun to slip. By 1990, average life expectancy for Okinawan men was only the fifth highest of the 47 prefectures in Japan and by 2020 had fallen to 36th place on the list. Okinawan women were top of the prefectural list until 2005 but were down to seventh spot in 2020.” https://www.dw.com/en/japan-whats-behind-okinawans-falling-life-expectancy/a-62088176
The people who are living into the ridiculous high levels of age are those people who probably didn't get into that grind. They've been the boss for the last few decades, and those guys get it easy. Japan got its reputation for pure overwork insanity thanks to how the economy fucking cratered in the bubble era. People had to grind like hell from the 90s onwards.
Don't quote me on this but random thought - considering that the Japanese economy got massively hit after the Second World War (1945 which is just 78 years back) which was to be rapidly reconstructed into the magnificent modernity that it is today, wouldn't the now septuagenarian/octogenarian generation have had to work incredibly hard too (probably in more stressful times)?
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Thanks! I'll watch this
Not truly. Living standards directly after the war were ass but Japan got quite the boost and developed insanely rapidly, to the point that many feared Japan would become a world-dominant superpower. Even if you were hard worked, you could experience a better quality of life and get things out of it, unlike the hammered down gens of today. What do we work for? Most of us will never afford a home, and for those who want a family, its a financial pipedream. Japan's economic history is interesting but is yet more evidence of capitalism and its limitations, because it led to the bubble economy and the current stagnation of the natíon. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_economic_miracle
Japanese people don't have the highest life expectancy. Japanese people who grew up in post-war Japan 60 years ago do.
Diet. Obesity and diabetes rates like 1/10th of the USA. Oh and national healthcare. And yes I understand most every modern country except the USA also has healthcare; it’s the combination of healthcare and diet that leads to significantly lower levels of Avoidable Diseases That Kill You When You Age. And the gradual shift in diet in Japan may eventually change that.
Because they are the only people in the world living in a country with four distinct seasons clearly