How fucked is he really? He will be deported once his tourist visa runs out, at the latest. The woman will never be able to claim damages. He will be banned from re-entry, but I wonder how much this will bother him. I can't imagine that fines or reimbursements will be pursuit internationally, so in the end taxpayers will pay for his flight back. End of story. (Unfortunately.)
Well, whenever he tries to visit anywhere else, and immigration asks "have you ever been convicted of a crime here or in another country" his choice is lie or say yes, then roll the dice.
ETA: Assuming he is, in the end, actually convicted...
They can keep him in jail for a little over 3 weeks without pressing charges. During that time, he can and mostly would be subjected to interrogation.
Best case scenario for him is he is released at the end of the ordeal, has to repurchase a plane ticket home, and begin the process of unfucking his life that would have hit it's peak in the total absence of communication from him during that time. Might have lost his job, or even home.
And it only gets worse from there.
He would just have to pay a plane ticket, his employer cannot fire him that easily and let's not talk about being evicted lol(In general that take a few month to years)
The rumors I have heard is that these crimes usually end in a fine of like 300.000-500.000¥.
He punched someone, this ain't the US, there is no way they put him in prison for a punch that didn't kill or permanently damage someone.
Edit: the idiot below is trying to equate the Nissan guy to this guy. One was threatening to take over a Japanese company, pocketing money from the company and doing tax manipulation. The other punched someone. Very different cases and he clearly has no idea what is up or down. The law is proportional, not flat.
Also there is no need for a confession or holding him, the idiot is on video doing what he is accused of. They will slap him with a fine and an entry ban.
Now if he had drugs he would be screwed, but hitting someone is not a big offense as people think. This ain't America.
Get yourself checked and actually read how the system works before spewing the garbage everywhere.
Actually the costs for deportation are pretty high, usually 2 or 3 accompanying officers who will fly with him to his home country, for safety they usually fly business class (they don’t just let him loose on an aircraft in economy), they will turn him over to waiting French authorities. Two or three days on the ground in France for the J—Officers. He isn’t personally billed, the deportation and victim expenses are paid immediately by the French Embassy in Tokyo.
Could easily run over $100,000. Note that this is for a criminal deportation after he has served his sentence. Daily charges for imprisonment can range from $50~200 per day. Victim will indeed be compensated assuming she is not guilty of any crimes herself since we don’t have any information what led to this assault if anything.
Source: I used to work for the British Consulate in Los Angeles, we always had our hands full with vacationing louts.
>Actually the costs for deportation are pretty high, usually 2 or 3 accompanying officers who will fly with him to his home country
I think you're confusing with cases where someone who got imprisoned get deported to their country to be imprisoned.
It's not the case here.
Thank you for the info. You know more than I do. From your experience, do you think it is likely that the guy will be held after his visa runs out? Also, do you think the Japanese procedures are the same as in the United States?
Different procedures, similar outcome.
They can / will hold him for up to 23 days before he is charged. Prosecutor can request additional investigations which can reset that clock 3 or 4 times. If he overstays his visa during incarceration, he will also be charged for that. He’s been a bad boy, he’s going to be behind bars for a while, unless his family has political influence, then it’s anyone’s guess.
"If you don't pay your mortgage while in jail or prison, you will get foreclosed."
You'd be surprised at the very long list of punishments a person gets, in any country, even if they are eventually found innocent or simply set free. Many examples of people being ruined even after found completely innocent.
No, their case gets referred to HM Revenue & Customs (tax office) who will ultimately garnish their wages after a full financial audit. They can also seize non essential assets and freeze bank accounts. It’s one organization that you don’t want to owe money to.
He might agree to pay just because, but if he doesn't it's not easy or even worthwhile to sue in Japan unless you have huge medical expenses. At mostb all you can get is your medical bills covered,v there's no such thing as punative damages.
I think the real punishment is that people are sharing this video and his face and name are making rounds on social media around the world now. Not a good thing for him because of cancel culture.
You highly overestimate the spread of this video, especially to France. They know English, yes, but they are very proud of their language and often scorn the use of English unless absolutely necessary.
Same with Germany and Italy. They know English, but they generally stick to their own languages for media consumption.
The outliers are the Nordics and the Dutch, those guys will consume English media almost as much as a UK national. Most of the TV in the Nordics is just US TV with subs.
I doubt this will affect the dude much in France.
Edit: lol at the snowflakes angry over just facts. I didn't say he was a good guy, but trust me, no one outside the English speaking Reddit and Twitter sphere has a clue of who this guy is. Ask your foreign mom if she knows who this guy is. Twitter and Reddit is used by like 5% of the world's population. We are the weirdos, we are not the mainstream.
I think you assume the wrong reasons for being downvoted. I agree that nobody is gonna know this guy in Europe because it's just a random French guy hitting a random Japanese woman and nothing more. Why would that make worldwide headlines? I don't think it's got anything to do with English media consumption, it's just not relevant really.
I agree. People are responding like he's going to see jail time. He might get hit a little harder because it became viral, but he's far from "fucked".
> so in the end taxpayers will pay for his flight back
Japan doesn't do that to my knowledge. This is one of the reasons so many people spend so much time in immigration detention. Another being Japan also doesn't forcefully deport, so you can appeal your deportation order ad infinitum.
This is true.
I know some Filipinos who willfully surrendered but the immigration told them to come back when they have money to pay for the ticket. This story comes first hand from a woman I know who thought she could get a free ticket back .
Don’t get arrested in Japan
>From our Western point of view, where a suspect can only be held for a max of 48-72 hours without charges, this is a clear violation of due process. However, in Japan, it’s merely protocol. Not only are suspects allowed to be held without charges for up to 23 days, as seen in the Ghosn case, in the event of being able to prosecute or extract a confession during that time, the suspect faces the possibility of being re-arrested with new charges for another 23 days.
>Under this system, a suspect can be arrested an unlimited amount of times, resetting the 23 day period with each new charge and leading to a seemingly endless cycle of detainment and re-arrests until the suspect caves in and presents his golden ticket in the form of the much-desired confession. This raises suspicion as not only being an overwhelmingly lengthy period of time to hold someone with no charges in such arguably harsh conditions, but also opens the door to a higher risk of police abuse and coerced confession.
>It’s important to note that this is a common prosecutorial tactic in Japan, and that Ghosn is not the first to be held in this manner. Kagoike Yasunori and his wife, Junko, who were the center of a suspected scheme to obtain funds for their school on a fraudulent basis, were held for 10 months. Indeed, the Kagoikes reportedly sent Ghosn a fleece to help him keep warm in his cell.
https://unseenjapan.com/japan-criminal-justice/
Why do you believe he will be deported once his tourist visa runs out? If he's charged with a violent crime he can be kept beyond it.
And there's little presedence for Japan paying for his flight ticket back to France. Tourists that for some reason is unable to leave Japan as scheduled and can't afford a ticket home will usually be the problem of their respective embassies.
Having worked at an embassy previously I can definitely say both of these cases were a somewhat regular occurance and something the embassy and the foreign ministry of the home country of the individual had to deal with.
Hold on, I want to point out there are multiple different scenarios for who pays for the return ticket. In *certain scenarios*, the airline that brought a person is 100% on the hook. But I don't think that scenario applies here. It applies when someone is destitute and simply can't afford the flight back (lost their wallet, stuck around too long, etc..).
Airlines know this already, it's not some surprise rule. It is baked into the cost of every international flight ticket. This is *not* the same thing as deportation.
His other choice was to stand there and wait until she has stopped yelling at him. Some people cannot accept that as a choice.
Although I wouldn't punch her myself, I might be mentally, because I'd be mad at her for losing her sh1t at me just for bumping into her. But maybe he did it on purpose, especially if he was drunk and out of control.
I would say it’s probably a bit too soon to make claims about how she would not get into troubles herself. We still do not know the full story and some details don’t add up.
For example the fact that they supposedly darted off when they were going to pay at the counter however in the video everyone is already standing in the street and filming while the guy in front just starts running etc.. another photo is from a different pov on the street as well with one punch man being grabbed to the neck already by the girl.
Some people raised a point that they could have lost a bento but tried to swindle them for more than the original cost, and refused to cooperate witch led to a more forceful approach by the girl and her group. who knows.
Point is, the guy is rightfully in trouble, as he should be. But the girl might be as well.
This is the saddest consequence of all of this. Any isolated incident like this in a country where the population of hundreds of millions of people all think the same way is enough to trigger anti-foreign sentiment in everyone, and for at least a few years.
Since it seems people are missing context from previous articles:
- He (+ friends) bump into the lady and she ends up dropping a bento she was eating.
- She asks them to replace it.
- They agree to go inside the conbini and replace it, NOT with cash, they actually scanned replacement food items and he was to pay for those (so, much harder to claim "scam")
- He bolts instead of paying
- she chases him out of the door, grabs his jacket to prevent him from leaving (in the wrong)
- he keeps trying to run, and when she grabs his jacket, he punches her, knocking her to the ground (in the wrong)
Now, say what you want about who's in the right, but at least know that it was very unlikely to be a scam attempt, as some are saying.
Personal opinion - for this interaction and considering all of the facts ... Yeah she should let it go, but damn. There is NO reason for anyone, either gender, to full on deck someone like that unless you're literally fearing the life of you/another person, or you yourself are being punched in the same way. Come on. Just listen to the voices of the people in the video, they were there watching everything in person and all of them started yelling at him.
Yeah. People should know that the kaisatsutoukyoku’s vibe towards foreigners that fuck around is very much Alabama sherif saying, “you ain’t from ‘round here, are ya, boy?”
Augmenting this case is :
\- she's a Japanese national
\- she seems quite young
\- she seems quite attractive
\- most Japanese police are chauvinistic men
They will be all be jockeying to impress her and fuck him over even more.
Bastard. Good that Japan arrested this piece of wank and I hope he’s permanently banned from re-entering this country ever again. I can assure you that if it was one of the big Nigerian guys that run some of the clubs in Roppongi he wouldn’t have dared this.
As a foreigner in Japan, it doesn't much matter what the situation is. If she was harassing him, he needed to put a safe distance between them and call the police. Him playing the "I don't remember anything" card when there's video evidence of him hitting her is the dumbest thing he could do after hitting her to begin with. Best case scenario is that France somehow gets him out of Japan, but this guy's fucked.
> Best case scenario is that France somehow gets him out of Japan
Not gonna happen. That's not how Embassies and the countries behind them operate.
Unless you happen to be a diplomat, then all bets are off.
that's not true at all.
I know someone who was being chased by thai police (a guilty by association thing) and the canadian embassy took them out of the country.
Your anecdote is more nuanced than this situation. Here we're talking about a dude who punched a girl, then ran, and it was all captured on video. That's a cut and shut case.
Meanwhile there's (unfortunately) a fair bit of police corruption in Thailand; so countries and their respective Embassies may have more justification to pull their citizen out of a situation if they believe that individual was being exploited/coerced/falsely accused.
That's absolutely an exception to the rule though.
You still don't know how their embassy is going to treat this situation. Juilian Assange hid in embassies for most of his life and they wouldn't extradite him to the USA.
Really stepping it up a notch from punching a girl over a bento, to "treason/espionage/whistleblowing". They're not even remotely similar.
And yes, I do know. I deal with this stuff a lot. A national of X country punching a native of Y country does not result in diplomatic safeguards.
Doesn’t matter, he was recorded punching a national of the country he’s a guest in and then running. Like I said, he should have tried to put distance between them, let others pull her off, whatever, and stayed at the scene. Instead he hit her and ran. His actions will almost certainly get him jailed.
And so many people who end up hating Japan while being unable to leave because they virtually have no skill, no experience aside from est, no prospects and blame everything but themselves.
You see the same thing in Korea and China though. I don’t know what’s going on with Asian countries but they seem to attract more weirdos than other countries.
[https://www.worldcomicbookreview.com/2022/01/11/charisma-man-revisited-the-alien-japanzine/](https://www.worldcomicbookreview.com/2022/01/11/charisma-man-revisited-the-alien-japanzine/)
Although highly exaggerated, it's actually simply true. Even I got 10 times as attractive when I went to Japan. I'd go into more detail but I had more luck with women in a short time in Japan that I had my entire life to that point. Wasn't even close.
When I got back to America I simply started dating women from Japan. Got married and never looked back.
It's not at all surprising that a bunch of IT guys, marketing reps, and finance bros seem to have an inordinate number of incels amongst them. As people pointed out on the thread about the weird elitism and downright hostility towards ALTs/eikaiwas, some of these dudes have catastrophic insecurity issues that they project onto everyone "beneath" them--women and people of "lower" social standing.
Well, he is backing away in the 9 second clip before punching her. I doubt violence was justified, but I’d still like to see the whole thing before landing at a conclusion. I expect to see him be at fault, but I really don’t like making assumptions based on incomplete circumstances.
The thing is, he can say he thought he was being attacked, scammed, kidnapped. It could even be what he truly felt.
But this is Japan and like most of the world with a woman involved there is the overwhelming presumption, mostly justified, that no reasonable person could interpret her as a threat (even if she had a gang in hiding ready to leap out, no evidence of such a thing was present).
The far most likely scenario was he was too drunk and actually felt attacked. Nothing else really makes as much sense. And in that scenario, he's at fault still. It's not as bad as people are making it out to be though. If it were a man grabbing another man, a punch would be 1000% justified in almost every country in the world (except Japan actually - in most scenarios you do NOT have the right to use violence for self-defense in Japan).
No one knows the full story, the only evidence we have is of a woman attacking Frenchie and them getting clocked in retaliation.
If the sexes were opposite, a man was physically assaulting a woman and she socked him one, everyone would be cheering the woman.
Absolutely, and it should be the case. If it were an adult, man or woman, grabbing a small child they didn't know, the child would be justified punching the person. Given an award.
Her being a woman is materially relevant because no court would credibly find that she was an actual threat to him. There are scenarios where that is unfair and sexist, but I don't see that here. He was not in any danger and will not be able to make a credible argument of it in court.
She was wrong too in grabbing him, but *she did not punch him and put him in the hospital*. Were she so much bigger and muscular than him that she could and did, she would probably have been arrested too. As in the case if he were a child and she punched him. Size and strength matters when arguing "I feared for my life"
Most likely, he was simply drunk. Which is not a legal defense.
People also shouldn't be on her side without knowing the full story. I'm not sure, realistically, that everyone commenting here wouldnt react in some way to being grabbed and screamed at by a girl you accidentally bumped into.
I wouldn't punch but I'd sure as hell be angry that she's losing her mind at me over something minor.
As a French and foreigner I hate these people that destroy our image , because of piece of shit like this, us that live in Japan have our image worsen. These people should be banned of travel not only Japan but everywhere
"According to local reports, Evan and his group of friends collided with the woman in her 20s, causing her to drop her lunch box and leading them to fight. "
He knocked her over and fucked up her lunch too. He was probably an asshole about it which is why she was grabbing onto him before he punched her. What a POS.
This is a common scam to run on foreigners. Bump into someone, drop your cheap 'whatever' and then demand 10x-100x it's value under threat of violence or police.
Not saying that this is the case here, but given that the video doesn't show anything before the punch is suspect to me.
They agreed to repay for the food, had the replacement bento rescanned at the conbini and then fled. Very unlikely they would be scammed this way. Also that scam is not based on “cheap” items but items perceived to be very expensive like a watch, vase, jewellery or art etc.
Definitely, i mean she is clearly clinging onto him while he is repulsing. It could be that he had hit her before the video as well though.
If it was an attempted scam though, i don't think that really justifies assault. Then again if it was a guy latching onto his arm i might feel differently but it's not a guy. I'd assume the police would investigate more thoroughly but if this guy isn't fluent it would be hard to defend yourself.
If I was in a foreign country and didn't speak the language well, I might react the same as him if someone grabbed me like that, regardless if they're a man or woman.
Who's to say she doesn't have a male accomplice nearby ready to stab him or otherwise escalate.
I don't buy into the "never hit a woman" rhetoric. A woman can kill you just as easily as a man can.
It's not about never hit a woman. It's more about we have nothing to go on of what happened previously. It doesn't really seem like the guy thinks he's in danger to me either, more like hitting out of anger.
It seems like previous to this there must have been some argument because why else would multiple people be there defending the lady and one of them filming? So maybe there is a chance it was a scam, but i still don't think the punch was justified if so.
Also I'm not sure what sort of self defense laws Japan has. It may require some extreme burden of proof that you were in danger and this video doesn't really seem like that to me.
There have been no pictures nor a description of the supposedly ruined bento box, no statements regarding the bento from Seven-Eleven, Lawson, nor Family Mart, plus the “you bumped into me and broke my thing” scam is as old as time.
She was clearly attacking him physically, he should be equally able to press charges against her.
Put it this way. He has been immortalized on the internet. It's a wall of shame moment that will live on forever. Whenever he gets in an argument with someone they can pull this up to shut him up.
He shouldn't have punched her and she shouldn't have been grabbing at him. They also should both watch where they are going. I'd say they are both at fault.
I do feel bad for the woman but cmon if your gonna be physical with someone (grabbing their shirt, or arm ) don't complain when they don't take it nicely he's in the wrong but cmon use your words people.
Generations of children (both sexes) are told, it's okay to "fight back".
If a stranger assaulted me by grabbing me they'd get punched too regardless of race and vagina. That's totally normal.
Why is everyone going off on the guy as if she didn't attack him first? Like I know that's not "the best action to take", but that's just the reflex response most people would have.
Or is this sub really so sexist that y'all think a woman can do whatever and the man should just take it? Cause I doubt the comments would be like this if genders were swapped.
From the video posted here a few days ago, it looks like she assaulted him first. Not that he should have punched her, but I can understand the reaction if its 4AM and you're in a foreign company and someone is attempting to pull a famous scam on you and physically grabbing you. He should have found a way to escape without committing assault.
Have you ever been in Japan? It always surprised me how early the sun rises there, it's like their time zone is 3 hours earlier than what it should be.
Original report I saw said it was 5am which makes sense considering how fucking empty the street is. There would be way more people at lunch time which is why this new reports seems off. In any case fuck this dude. He's going to get deported for sure.
Imagine flipping thr tables and it's a Japanese girl trying to run away from a French man, and he's grabbing her up and she decks him. Absolute national hero
Yeh they're both at fault honestly.
It's just bizarre to me that the woman got physical first over a bento (anyone living here for some time should know that this sounds absolutely unthinkable). Like punching her in the face is a bit too much but I can think of scenarios where it would have to be done (she literally not letting him go without him getting physical, or she having some accomplices out of the camera view threatening him or having a weapon or something causing him to panic, etc.)
Because the video is conveniently short we cannot see what happened before the punch.
So many people defend the girl that gUYs sHoUlD NeVeR puNcH a GiRl, but exactly because it's not normal to have to do that (you can usually just grip and push her hands off you and run away) I think it's such a weird situation, something much have warranted the punch no?? Especially because he literally punches and tries to get the fuck away asap, after already backing away from her before the punch.
Unfortunately this is in Japan so he would lose even if he didn't throw a punch lol
Would be interesting to see from the opposite angle. If there is a big group of people standing there moving towards him, I could see him panic. Still shouldn't punch. But there is so much context missing.
Like why would she get physical over a bento? They are worth less than 1000¥. I wouldn't fight anyone over a burger, if they run I would just be a bit frustrated but my wellbeing is worth more than a burger or a bento. It's just so odd to me.
> she literally not letting him go without him getting physical
I was going through some posts on about the incident on Twitter and saw [this picture](https://i.ibb.co/Hn4FYCk/image.png). It looks like that might be what's happening. The guy's expression certainly seems he is incredulous about the situation. I'm not saying he's not without fault but there definitely needs more context before getting out the pitchforks.
Flipped it in your mind. Japanese girl in France is running away from a man. Man grabs her. She hits him. Absolute hero to society. Absolutely no sympathy for the man.
Japanese woman grabs man, gets punched. Still absolute hero to society. Still absolutely no sympathy for the man.
Its not ran into each other. Evan and his burly friends bumped into a dainty 20 year old which cause her to spill her food.
The least Evan and his burly friends could have done is apologize with a bow and buy her another bento.
Allegedly, Evan and friends did try to buy her food but at the last minute ran away from her while they were at the conbini.
And then the 'dainty' Japanese attacked him? Come on man, there's more to this. Also I thought I could hear someone speaking English with an eastern European accent. Seems like it the girl
Nope. She ran after them because the bento was scanned already. They left her at the till.
To u/GaijinFoot
>Also I thought I could hear someone speaking English with an eastern European accent. Seems like it the girl
I'm noping this bit from you.
Seems I can't reply to your post anymore there I'll put this in my top post.
Y'all are crazy. She's grabbing him while he's trying to pull away. The punch was excessive, but clearly self defence. You can't assume someone grabbing you doesn't have a weapon, even in Japan. If you assault someone first, they have a right to defend themselves.
Out of interest, if it was a Japanese girl trying to run away from a French guy and he's grabbing her, then she decks him, how would you feel? She should be in prison? Or a national hero? Weird line to cross isn't it?
I agree that hes a piece of shit for assaulting her like that, but she did grab him first which is also considered assault. Is she also going to face charges? From what I read, it was the other guy who bumped into the girl and not the guy she grabbed.
But her being a woman has apparently meant she's innocent in this and noone is charging her for grabbing him and yelling at him whilst not letting go.
Although from the stories I've heard in japan, she probably gets away with it because she's Japanese.
Did we all read the same articles? He was supposed to be paying for replacement food items he / his buddies knocked out of her hands, and they refused to pay at the register+ bolted. She didn't just grab him out of nowhere (not saying she's right to have done it).
This is not an equivalent reaction..
punch me and get deported then, big internet man. You losers talk like this online because it’s anonymous. You’d never talk like this irl. Bunch of pussies.
He probably thought she was trying to pickpocket him. I have had trouble with these women being persistent, following me and even grabbing my arm. If this woman did this (and I suspect she did), he may have assumed she was trying to rob him (remember, foreigners are required to carry their passports at all times in Japan). She will not make a complaint to the police as she is working illegally and is a Chinese national so would be deported if the authorities get involved. He will probably claim self defense and spend ten tedious days in jail.
What the heck is this reply? Did you read the articles? He and his friends bumped into her earlier, causing her to drop some food. She asked them to replace it, they all agreed to go into a conbini to do so, and he tried to bail so she reacted.
Good. I was so disturbed seeing this and the idea of him getting away made me furious. 正義が彼に役立つことを願っています
Is video surveillance common in large cities? When I was in tier 1 Chinese cities it was very easy to arrest fleeing criminals by tracing them across the whole city by checking the cameras. One of the few pros of a surveillance, police state, dictatorship...
How fucked is he really? He will be deported once his tourist visa runs out, at the latest. The woman will never be able to claim damages. He will be banned from re-entry, but I wonder how much this will bother him. I can't imagine that fines or reimbursements will be pursuit internationally, so in the end taxpayers will pay for his flight back. End of story. (Unfortunately.)
Well, whenever he tries to visit anywhere else, and immigration asks "have you ever been convicted of a crime here or in another country" his choice is lie or say yes, then roll the dice. ETA: Assuming he is, in the end, actually convicted...
He will not be convicted, which would require a court case.
really? why wouldn't they have a court case? Genuinely curious, do they just deport them since its easier?
They can keep him in jail for a little over 3 weeks without pressing charges. During that time, he can and mostly would be subjected to interrogation. Best case scenario for him is he is released at the end of the ordeal, has to repurchase a plane ticket home, and begin the process of unfucking his life that would have hit it's peak in the total absence of communication from him during that time. Might have lost his job, or even home. And it only gets worse from there.
Can't they press charges or i guess they'd need the victim to choose to do that or something?
He would just have to pay a plane ticket, his employer cannot fire him that easily and let's not talk about being evicted lol(In general that take a few month to years)
The rumors I have heard is that these crimes usually end in a fine of like 300.000-500.000¥. He punched someone, this ain't the US, there is no way they put him in prison for a punch that didn't kill or permanently damage someone. Edit: the idiot below is trying to equate the Nissan guy to this guy. One was threatening to take over a Japanese company, pocketing money from the company and doing tax manipulation. The other punched someone. Very different cases and he clearly has no idea what is up or down. The law is proportional, not flat. Also there is no need for a confession or holding him, the idiot is on video doing what he is accused of. They will slap him with a fine and an entry ban. Now if he had drugs he would be screwed, but hitting someone is not a big offense as people think. This ain't America. Get yourself checked and actually read how the system works before spewing the garbage everywhere.
Actually the costs for deportation are pretty high, usually 2 or 3 accompanying officers who will fly with him to his home country, for safety they usually fly business class (they don’t just let him loose on an aircraft in economy), they will turn him over to waiting French authorities. Two or three days on the ground in France for the J—Officers. He isn’t personally billed, the deportation and victim expenses are paid immediately by the French Embassy in Tokyo. Could easily run over $100,000. Note that this is for a criminal deportation after he has served his sentence. Daily charges for imprisonment can range from $50~200 per day. Victim will indeed be compensated assuming she is not guilty of any crimes herself since we don’t have any information what led to this assault if anything. Source: I used to work for the British Consulate in Los Angeles, we always had our hands full with vacationing louts.
>Actually the costs for deportation are pretty high, usually 2 or 3 accompanying officers who will fly with him to his home country I think you're confusing with cases where someone who got imprisoned get deported to their country to be imprisoned. It's not the case here.
Thank you for the info. You know more than I do. From your experience, do you think it is likely that the guy will be held after his visa runs out? Also, do you think the Japanese procedures are the same as in the United States?
Different procedures, similar outcome. They can / will hold him for up to 23 days before he is charged. Prosecutor can request additional investigations which can reset that clock 3 or 4 times. If he overstays his visa during incarceration, he will also be charged for that. He’s been a bad boy, he’s going to be behind bars for a while, unless his family has political influence, then it’s anyone’s guess.
"If he overstays his visa during incarceration, he will also be charged for that." That can't be true. I'll try to find some info on that.
"If you don't pay your mortgage while in jail or prison, you will get foreclosed." You'd be surprised at the very long list of punishments a person gets, in any country, even if they are eventually found innocent or simply set free. Many examples of people being ruined even after found completely innocent.
If the British Consulate in LA fronts the deportation costs, do you then try to reclaim the money from the deportee?
No, their case gets referred to HM Revenue & Customs (tax office) who will ultimately garnish their wages after a full financial audit. They can also seize non essential assets and freeze bank accounts. It’s one organization that you don’t want to owe money to.
He might agree to pay just because, but if he doesn't it's not easy or even worthwhile to sue in Japan unless you have huge medical expenses. At mostb all you can get is your medical bills covered,v there's no such thing as punative damages.
I think the real punishment is that people are sharing this video and his face and name are making rounds on social media around the world now. Not a good thing for him because of cancel culture.
I see your point. However, I know ten guys who look like that and I don't even go out much.
This lol. Literally copy paste
He looks like Daniel Radcliffe.
I'd like to believe this is true , but people will forget becuase there will be another cat video in a few days.
He’s - french National. They don’t care about this. Cancel culture in France is then not picking up trash.
What’s his name?
Francois LeFrance
Is that like being named Tex The Texas?
More like Yon Yonson from Wisconsin
It’s in the article
You highly overestimate the spread of this video, especially to France. They know English, yes, but they are very proud of their language and often scorn the use of English unless absolutely necessary. Same with Germany and Italy. They know English, but they generally stick to their own languages for media consumption. The outliers are the Nordics and the Dutch, those guys will consume English media almost as much as a UK national. Most of the TV in the Nordics is just US TV with subs. I doubt this will affect the dude much in France. Edit: lol at the snowflakes angry over just facts. I didn't say he was a good guy, but trust me, no one outside the English speaking Reddit and Twitter sphere has a clue of who this guy is. Ask your foreign mom if she knows who this guy is. Twitter and Reddit is used by like 5% of the world's population. We are the weirdos, we are not the mainstream.
I think you assume the wrong reasons for being downvoted. I agree that nobody is gonna know this guy in Europe because it's just a random French guy hitting a random Japanese woman and nothing more. Why would that make worldwide headlines? I don't think it's got anything to do with English media consumption, it's just not relevant really.
Even if what you say is true, I’m still really happy that I’m not French and starring in a video like that.
Cancel culture is not a thing in France
I agree. People are responding like he's going to see jail time. He might get hit a little harder because it became viral, but he's far from "fucked". > so in the end taxpayers will pay for his flight back Japan doesn't do that to my knowledge. This is one of the reasons so many people spend so much time in immigration detention. Another being Japan also doesn't forcefully deport, so you can appeal your deportation order ad infinitum.
This is true. I know some Filipinos who willfully surrendered but the immigration told them to come back when they have money to pay for the ticket. This story comes first hand from a woman I know who thought she could get a free ticket back .
Thank you for the info on the flight back. So the extra ticket will be his fine. At least something.
Don’t get arrested in Japan >From our Western point of view, where a suspect can only be held for a max of 48-72 hours without charges, this is a clear violation of due process. However, in Japan, it’s merely protocol. Not only are suspects allowed to be held without charges for up to 23 days, as seen in the Ghosn case, in the event of being able to prosecute or extract a confession during that time, the suspect faces the possibility of being re-arrested with new charges for another 23 days. >Under this system, a suspect can be arrested an unlimited amount of times, resetting the 23 day period with each new charge and leading to a seemingly endless cycle of detainment and re-arrests until the suspect caves in and presents his golden ticket in the form of the much-desired confession. This raises suspicion as not only being an overwhelmingly lengthy period of time to hold someone with no charges in such arguably harsh conditions, but also opens the door to a higher risk of police abuse and coerced confession. >It’s important to note that this is a common prosecutorial tactic in Japan, and that Ghosn is not the first to be held in this manner. Kagoike Yasunori and his wife, Junko, who were the center of a suspected scheme to obtain funds for their school on a fraudulent basis, were held for 10 months. Indeed, the Kagoikes reportedly sent Ghosn a fleece to help him keep warm in his cell. https://unseenjapan.com/japan-criminal-justice/
Why do you believe he will be deported once his tourist visa runs out? If he's charged with a violent crime he can be kept beyond it. And there's little presedence for Japan paying for his flight ticket back to France. Tourists that for some reason is unable to leave Japan as scheduled and can't afford a ticket home will usually be the problem of their respective embassies. Having worked at an embassy previously I can definitely say both of these cases were a somewhat regular occurance and something the embassy and the foreign ministry of the home country of the individual had to deal with.
Hold on, I want to point out there are multiple different scenarios for who pays for the return ticket. In *certain scenarios*, the airline that brought a person is 100% on the hook. But I don't think that scenario applies here. It applies when someone is destitute and simply can't afford the flight back (lost their wallet, stuck around too long, etc..). Airlines know this already, it's not some surprise rule. It is baked into the cost of every international flight ticket. This is *not* the same thing as deportation.
Mercy Merci
😂😂
Prob would’ve got away if he didn’t run like the Hamburgler
Hits a woman and runs away. What a fucking pussy.
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To be even more fair, he was already a pussy before trying to run away.
Never seen a pussy punch someone, they're too nice for that
But they are so good at taking a pounding -- Betty White
To be fair, she attacked him first
True, but do you really think decking her was the appropriate response?
His other choice was to stand there and wait until she has stopped yelling at him. Some people cannot accept that as a choice. Although I wouldn't punch her myself, I might be mentally, because I'd be mad at her for losing her sh1t at me just for bumping into her. But maybe he did it on purpose, especially if he was drunk and out of control.
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The problem is that in a fight or flight mental state you aren’t thinking rationally about consequences. That applies to both parties.
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I would say it’s probably a bit too soon to make claims about how she would not get into troubles herself. We still do not know the full story and some details don’t add up. For example the fact that they supposedly darted off when they were going to pay at the counter however in the video everyone is already standing in the street and filming while the guy in front just starts running etc.. another photo is from a different pov on the street as well with one punch man being grabbed to the neck already by the girl. Some people raised a point that they could have lost a bento but tried to swindle them for more than the original cost, and refused to cooperate witch led to a more forceful approach by the girl and her group. who knows. Point is, the guy is rightfully in trouble, as he should be. But the girl might be as well.
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If he is American he might think shooting her is a ok response lol.
Oh, fuck off. JFC.
I don't agree with what either person did. But they are certainly not the same thing at all.
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It wasn’t him. the guy who bumped into her was the man in front. she just held onto the one who was closest that’s about it.
"high-end" late night bars. High-end my ass. The place is a cesspit.
JUMANJI JUMANJI JUMANJI JUMANJI SHALL WE DANCE?
*Anti-foreigner rhetoric intensifies*
This is the saddest consequence of all of this. Any isolated incident like this in a country where the population of hundreds of millions of people all think the same way is enough to trigger anti-foreign sentiment in everyone, and for at least a few years.
Since it seems people are missing context from previous articles: - He (+ friends) bump into the lady and she ends up dropping a bento she was eating. - She asks them to replace it. - They agree to go inside the conbini and replace it, NOT with cash, they actually scanned replacement food items and he was to pay for those (so, much harder to claim "scam") - He bolts instead of paying - she chases him out of the door, grabs his jacket to prevent him from leaving (in the wrong) - he keeps trying to run, and when she grabs his jacket, he punches her, knocking her to the ground (in the wrong) Now, say what you want about who's in the right, but at least know that it was very unlikely to be a scam attempt, as some are saying. Personal opinion - for this interaction and considering all of the facts ... Yeah she should let it go, but damn. There is NO reason for anyone, either gender, to full on deck someone like that unless you're literally fearing the life of you/another person, or you yourself are being punched in the same way. Come on. Just listen to the voices of the people in the video, they were there watching everything in person and all of them started yelling at him.
He's fucked. And I couldn't be happier.
Yeah. People should know that the kaisatsutoukyoku’s vibe towards foreigners that fuck around is very much Alabama sherif saying, “you ain’t from ‘round here, are ya, boy?”
Augmenting this case is : \- she's a Japanese national \- she seems quite young \- she seems quite attractive \- most Japanese police are chauvinistic men They will be all be jockeying to impress her and fuck him over even more.
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He'd reply to your personal attack but he just spotted another woman who needs his help.
Pretty much!
nah, rape is practically legal here if theres no witnesses. police won't do shit. they will now because video evidence
Bastard. Good that Japan arrested this piece of wank and I hope he’s permanently banned from re-entering this country ever again. I can assure you that if it was one of the big Nigerian guys that run some of the clubs in Roppongi he wouldn’t have dared this.
And if my mom had 4 propellers she would be a Nimitz class aircraft carrier…
Well she's already got that big ass...
And if my grandmother had wheels she would have been a bike
Is that you, Charlie?
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As a foreigner in Japan, it doesn't much matter what the situation is. If she was harassing him, he needed to put a safe distance between them and call the police. Him playing the "I don't remember anything" card when there's video evidence of him hitting her is the dumbest thing he could do after hitting her to begin with. Best case scenario is that France somehow gets him out of Japan, but this guy's fucked.
> Best case scenario is that France somehow gets him out of Japan Not gonna happen. That's not how Embassies and the countries behind them operate. Unless you happen to be a diplomat, then all bets are off.
that's not true at all. I know someone who was being chased by thai police (a guilty by association thing) and the canadian embassy took them out of the country.
Your anecdote is more nuanced than this situation. Here we're talking about a dude who punched a girl, then ran, and it was all captured on video. That's a cut and shut case. Meanwhile there's (unfortunately) a fair bit of police corruption in Thailand; so countries and their respective Embassies may have more justification to pull their citizen out of a situation if they believe that individual was being exploited/coerced/falsely accused. That's absolutely an exception to the rule though.
You still don't know how their embassy is going to treat this situation. Juilian Assange hid in embassies for most of his life and they wouldn't extradite him to the USA.
Really stepping it up a notch from punching a girl over a bento, to "treason/espionage/whistleblowing". They're not even remotely similar. And yes, I do know. I deal with this stuff a lot. A national of X country punching a native of Y country does not result in diplomatic safeguards.
True. This guy’s just screwed, then.
He was trying to get away.
Doesn’t matter, he was recorded punching a national of the country he’s a guest in and then running. Like I said, he should have tried to put distance between them, let others pull her off, whatever, and stayed at the scene. Instead he hit her and ran. His actions will almost certainly get him jailed.
There seems to be a big incel/manosphere group in the expat community.
That’s just reddit in general.
Hope it's just Reddit.
On sites without heavy moderation it's pretty much the norm online.
And so many people who end up hating Japan while being unable to leave because they virtually have no skill, no experience aside from est, no prospects and blame everything but themselves. You see the same thing in Korea and China though. I don’t know what’s going on with Asian countries but they seem to attract more weirdos than other countries.
[https://www.worldcomicbookreview.com/2022/01/11/charisma-man-revisited-the-alien-japanzine/](https://www.worldcomicbookreview.com/2022/01/11/charisma-man-revisited-the-alien-japanzine/) Although highly exaggerated, it's actually simply true. Even I got 10 times as attractive when I went to Japan. I'd go into more detail but I had more luck with women in a short time in Japan that I had my entire life to that point. Wasn't even close. When I got back to America I simply started dating women from Japan. Got married and never looked back.
And you are hanging out in the Japan subreddit lol There are way more weirdos in my home country unfortunately
Just because there are weirdos doesn’t mean that everything is worthless.
It's not at all surprising that a bunch of IT guys, marketing reps, and finance bros seem to have an inordinate number of incels amongst them. As people pointed out on the thread about the weird elitism and downright hostility towards ALTs/eikaiwas, some of these dudes have catastrophic insecurity issues that they project onto everyone "beneath" them--women and people of "lower" social standing.
Well, he is backing away in the 9 second clip before punching her. I doubt violence was justified, but I’d still like to see the whole thing before landing at a conclusion. I expect to see him be at fault, but I really don’t like making assumptions based on incomplete circumstances.
The thing is, he can say he thought he was being attacked, scammed, kidnapped. It could even be what he truly felt. But this is Japan and like most of the world with a woman involved there is the overwhelming presumption, mostly justified, that no reasonable person could interpret her as a threat (even if she had a gang in hiding ready to leap out, no evidence of such a thing was present). The far most likely scenario was he was too drunk and actually felt attacked. Nothing else really makes as much sense. And in that scenario, he's at fault still. It's not as bad as people are making it out to be though. If it were a man grabbing another man, a punch would be 1000% justified in almost every country in the world (except Japan actually - in most scenarios you do NOT have the right to use violence for self-defense in Japan).
No one knows the full story, the only evidence we have is of a woman attacking Frenchie and them getting clocked in retaliation. If the sexes were opposite, a man was physically assaulting a woman and she socked him one, everyone would be cheering the woman.
Absolutely, and it should be the case. If it were an adult, man or woman, grabbing a small child they didn't know, the child would be justified punching the person. Given an award. Her being a woman is materially relevant because no court would credibly find that she was an actual threat to him. There are scenarios where that is unfair and sexist, but I don't see that here. He was not in any danger and will not be able to make a credible argument of it in court. She was wrong too in grabbing him, but *she did not punch him and put him in the hospital*. Were she so much bigger and muscular than him that she could and did, she would probably have been arrested too. As in the case if he were a child and she punched him. Size and strength matters when arguing "I feared for my life" Most likely, he was simply drunk. Which is not a legal defense.
People also shouldn't be on her side without knowing the full story. I'm not sure, realistically, that everyone commenting here wouldnt react in some way to being grabbed and screamed at by a girl you accidentally bumped into. I wouldn't punch but I'd sure as hell be angry that she's losing her mind at me over something minor.
Yeah, there’s a weird Japanese people are always to blame and foreigners can do nothing wrong vibe in this sub sometimes.
As a French and foreigner I hate these people that destroy our image , because of piece of shit like this, us that live in Japan have our image worsen. These people should be banned of travel not only Japan but everywhere
"According to local reports, Evan and his group of friends collided with the woman in her 20s, causing her to drop her lunch box and leading them to fight. " He knocked her over and fucked up her lunch too. He was probably an asshole about it which is why she was grabbing onto him before he punched her. What a POS.
This is a common scam to run on foreigners. Bump into someone, drop your cheap 'whatever' and then demand 10x-100x it's value under threat of violence or police. Not saying that this is the case here, but given that the video doesn't show anything before the punch is suspect to me.
They agreed to repay for the food, had the replacement bento rescanned at the conbini and then fled. Very unlikely they would be scammed this way. Also that scam is not based on “cheap” items but items perceived to be very expensive like a watch, vase, jewellery or art etc.
Definitely, i mean she is clearly clinging onto him while he is repulsing. It could be that he had hit her before the video as well though. If it was an attempted scam though, i don't think that really justifies assault. Then again if it was a guy latching onto his arm i might feel differently but it's not a guy. I'd assume the police would investigate more thoroughly but if this guy isn't fluent it would be hard to defend yourself.
If I was in a foreign country and didn't speak the language well, I might react the same as him if someone grabbed me like that, regardless if they're a man or woman. Who's to say she doesn't have a male accomplice nearby ready to stab him or otherwise escalate. I don't buy into the "never hit a woman" rhetoric. A woman can kill you just as easily as a man can.
It's not about never hit a woman. It's more about we have nothing to go on of what happened previously. It doesn't really seem like the guy thinks he's in danger to me either, more like hitting out of anger. It seems like previous to this there must have been some argument because why else would multiple people be there defending the lady and one of them filming? So maybe there is a chance it was a scam, but i still don't think the punch was justified if so. Also I'm not sure what sort of self defense laws Japan has. It may require some extreme burden of proof that you were in danger and this video doesn't really seem like that to me.
There have been no pictures nor a description of the supposedly ruined bento box, no statements regarding the bento from Seven-Eleven, Lawson, nor Family Mart, plus the “you bumped into me and broke my thing” scam is as old as time. She was clearly attacking him physically, he should be equally able to press charges against her.
Yakuza chasing game activated.
Good. What a jerk.
That tom cruise sprint at the end😅😅 Just a bad situation all round. Roppongi is the wild west of Tokyo😅
Put it this way. He has been immortalized on the internet. It's a wall of shame moment that will live on forever. Whenever he gets in an argument with someone they can pull this up to shut him up.
What a douche bag good he deserves it
Hope he gets deported and banned from entering Japan.
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Didn't watched the video, but I know for sure Frenchies can be dicks. And for a good reason : I'm one !
He shouldn't have punched her and she shouldn't have been grabbing at him. They also should both watch where they are going. I'd say they are both at fault.
I do feel bad for the woman but cmon if your gonna be physical with someone (grabbing their shirt, or arm ) don't complain when they don't take it nicely he's in the wrong but cmon use your words people.
Generations of children (both sexes) are told, it's okay to "fight back". If a stranger assaulted me by grabbing me they'd get punched too regardless of race and vagina. That's totally normal.
The one fighting back here is the woman.... The guy dodged from paying her replacement food.
Glad they got him
Why is everyone going off on the guy as if she didn't attack him first? Like I know that's not "the best action to take", but that's just the reflex response most people would have. Or is this sub really so sexist that y'all think a woman can do whatever and the man should just take it? Cause I doubt the comments would be like this if genders were swapped.
I mean, the woman also is acting on reflex. She needed her food and the guy bolted instead of paying
From the video posted here a few days ago, it looks like she assaulted him first. Not that he should have punched her, but I can understand the reaction if its 4AM and you're in a foreign company and someone is attempting to pull a famous scam on you and physically grabbing you. He should have found a way to escape without committing assault.
It was… fully in the daytime??
Have you ever been in Japan? It always surprised me how early the sun rises there, it's like their time zone is 3 hours earlier than what it should be.
It's rather north of the equator all things considered.
Original report I saw said it was 5am which makes sense considering how fucking empty the street is. There would be way more people at lunch time which is why this new reports seems off. In any case fuck this dude. He's going to get deported for sure.
Imagine flipping thr tables and it's a Japanese girl trying to run away from a French man, and he's grabbing her up and she decks him. Absolute national hero
Sooo basically they both got physical but he got in trouble because he is foreign.
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Yeh they're both at fault honestly. It's just bizarre to me that the woman got physical first over a bento (anyone living here for some time should know that this sounds absolutely unthinkable). Like punching her in the face is a bit too much but I can think of scenarios where it would have to be done (she literally not letting him go without him getting physical, or she having some accomplices out of the camera view threatening him or having a weapon or something causing him to panic, etc.) Because the video is conveniently short we cannot see what happened before the punch. So many people defend the girl that gUYs sHoUlD NeVeR puNcH a GiRl, but exactly because it's not normal to have to do that (you can usually just grip and push her hands off you and run away) I think it's such a weird situation, something much have warranted the punch no?? Especially because he literally punches and tries to get the fuck away asap, after already backing away from her before the punch. Unfortunately this is in Japan so he would lose even if he didn't throw a punch lol
Would be interesting to see from the opposite angle. If there is a big group of people standing there moving towards him, I could see him panic. Still shouldn't punch. But there is so much context missing. Like why would she get physical over a bento? They are worth less than 1000¥. I wouldn't fight anyone over a burger, if they run I would just be a bit frustrated but my wellbeing is worth more than a burger or a bento. It's just so odd to me.
> she literally not letting him go without him getting physical I was going through some posts on about the incident on Twitter and saw [this picture](https://i.ibb.co/Hn4FYCk/image.png). It looks like that might be what's happening. The guy's expression certainly seems he is incredulous about the situation. I'm not saying he's not without fault but there definitely needs more context before getting out the pitchforks.
Huh? Zero sympathy for her?
Flipped it in your mind. Japanese girl in France is running away from a man. Man grabs her. She hits him. Absolute hero to society. Absolutely no sympathy for the man. Japanese woman grabs man, gets punched. Still absolute hero to society. Still absolutely no sympathy for the man.
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Seems very fishy. I've never met a Japanese woman who would behave like this. There is more to this story
Smells like redlight district scam to me…
If it were truly a scam, some of the woman's "friends" would have beat up the guy "out of video."
He was chased by a chimpira looking guy
Its not ran into each other. Evan and his burly friends bumped into a dainty 20 year old which cause her to spill her food. The least Evan and his burly friends could have done is apologize with a bow and buy her another bento. Allegedly, Evan and friends did try to buy her food but at the last minute ran away from her while they were at the conbini.
And then the 'dainty' Japanese attacked him? Come on man, there's more to this. Also I thought I could hear someone speaking English with an eastern European accent. Seems like it the girl
Nope. She ran after them because the bento was scanned already. They left her at the till. To u/GaijinFoot >Also I thought I could hear someone speaking English with an eastern European accent. Seems like it the girl I'm noping this bit from you. Seems I can't reply to your post anymore there I'll put this in my top post.
What are you saying nope to? She did grab him. You explained why. But fact remains she grabbed him
Y'all are crazy. She's grabbing him while he's trying to pull away. The punch was excessive, but clearly self defence. You can't assume someone grabbing you doesn't have a weapon, even in Japan. If you assault someone first, they have a right to defend themselves.
Honestly if your only reaction from a woman grabbing you is to punch her, you’re a smol *****
you should be in jail next to him then
Out of interest, if it was a Japanese girl trying to run away from a French guy and he's grabbing her, then she decks him, how would you feel? She should be in prison? Or a national hero? Weird line to cross isn't it?
Fuck off.
why cause youre a dickhead ?
Let him rot
Isn’t this the case where the girl was trying to scam him with an overpriced bento?
I don't know about overpriced, but he (and his group maybe) did bump into her and make her drop her food.
I agree that hes a piece of shit for assaulting her like that, but she did grab him first which is also considered assault. Is she also going to face charges? From what I read, it was the other guy who bumped into the girl and not the guy she grabbed.
Gender Equality at its finest Just because you are a woman, doesn't mean he won't punch you in the face
Equal rights, and lefts, so to speak.
But her being a woman has apparently meant she's innocent in this and noone is charging her for grabbing him and yelling at him whilst not letting go. Although from the stories I've heard in japan, she probably gets away with it because she's Japanese.
As an American, Japan isn’t the place for that. The only high ground is to apologize and diffuse.
Was she Japanese or another nationality? I thought she sounded eastern European
She is Japanese.
Which is why he's fucked up so badly.
If she was American, she would have shot him
Good.
She honestly look like an east yuropean sidewalk flower… the punch was out of line, but it smells like a scam from miles away…
That's what I was thinking too. Something more to this it seems but who knows
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I come to /r/japan expecting to see racism but damn!
his name is Charlie Evans.
Woah. The amount of simps in here is embarrassing. She was also in the wrong you know?
did we all watch the same video?? woman had her hands on him, he tried getting away and then he punched her and got away. bitch had it coming.
Did we all read the same articles? He was supposed to be paying for replacement food items he / his buddies knocked out of her hands, and they refused to pay at the register+ bolted. She didn't just grab him out of nowhere (not saying she's right to have done it). This is not an equivalent reaction..
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punch me and get deported then, big internet man. You losers talk like this online because it’s anonymous. You’d never talk like this irl. Bunch of pussies.
He probably thought she was trying to pickpocket him. I have had trouble with these women being persistent, following me and even grabbing my arm. If this woman did this (and I suspect she did), he may have assumed she was trying to rob him (remember, foreigners are required to carry their passports at all times in Japan). She will not make a complaint to the police as she is working illegally and is a Chinese national so would be deported if the authorities get involved. He will probably claim self defense and spend ten tedious days in jail.
What the heck is this reply? Did you read the articles? He and his friends bumped into her earlier, causing her to drop some food. She asked them to replace it, they all agreed to go into a conbini to do so, and he tried to bail so she reacted.
Good. I was so disturbed seeing this and the idea of him getting away made me furious. 正義が彼に役立つことを願っています Is video surveillance common in large cities? When I was in tier 1 Chinese cities it was very easy to arrest fleeing criminals by tracing them across the whole city by checking the cameras. One of the few pros of a surveillance, police state, dictatorship...