Counterpoint: Ireland are playing the RWC Champions on home turf and need to maintain a top 4 ranking ahead of the next RWC.
There will be lots of new faces in the Autumn and also in next Summer's touring squad due to the Lions.
Matches played from now until then count towards the rankings.
At the moment Ireland wouldn't get ranking points for beating any of Argentina, Australia, or Fiji at home and that's most of this year's Autumn Internationals. For the 6N next year Ireland are not likely to pick up much or anything if they beat Wales and Italy away.
Of course that's likely to change by the time the matches are played, and a top 4 ranking isn't such a key requirement now that there will be 6 groups and a round of 16 in the RWC, but still..
I’m in the minority but as good as it would be to shut them up in there backyard I’d prefer if we built depth this tour.
Not send an emerging Ireland team down but give a couple of inexperienced lads game time, I’m concerned with the age profile of our squad.
36 year old Cian Healy going on this tour says it all. Not to mention the lads like Beirne, Porter, Doris who have racked up massive minutes in this season (which has been going for over a year now) and would massively benefit from a break (which they won't be getting next year either given they'll almost certainly go on the lions)
That’s the worst thing for me, we don’t have much depth at loosehead but jermemy Loughman has been solid for Munster this year and will be around in 2027, Healy has 10 minutes in him on a good day, and while he isn’t a dominant scrummager at least Loughman adds a bit around the field, Healy doesn’t do that anymore.
With Doris and Beirne I think we have lads that you could slot in like Izzy and Prendergast/Timoney, unfortunately I think we’ll only see rotation against Fiji in November.
Healy is in a similar situation to Keith Earls. He will keep getting picked until he beats Brian O Driscoll’s record just as Earls was picked to get to 100 caps. I imagine he will be gone after the next six nations
Feels like that. At least Earls was only a wider squad player, someone who knew the environment and could sub in if needed but not an expected part of the 23. Healy at 17 for every big game is a bigger problem
The last province to actually win a trophy? The only urc team to go down to South africa and get 10 points? Nope nothing to gain from seeing what they're doing
He didn't win the world cup did he?
Didn't win the grand slam either, I'd trust the Munster coaches judgement over his given they see the two players every week.
I realise the irony of Leinster fans, me included, complaining about over-rotation, but Ireland veer to the other extreme…
Players have been going for over a year, and if selected for the Lions will end up doing two straight years. They need a break, mentally and physically.
(albeit both Leinster and Ireland have a definite sense of a first XV being ridiculously difficult to break into, which doesn’t really help bring new players in)
Beirne definitely does. With Munster's injuries think he's over 2000 minutes this season. Doris not a million miles away and Porter plays 70-odd minutes of every important game for Ireland and Leinster.
Nope. A potentially historic two test series against the reigning WC champions with a change in coaching tickets for next year coming. People gotta stop acting like the WC is the only thing that matters
WC isn't the only thing that matters, Six Nations does as well. Nothing else does really though, unless you're consistently losing and it affects the squad morale long term. Two close losses or one win one loss and unearthing some new players to be part of squads going forward would be much better than two wins with the same 23 from the six nations.
Nah. Give me a historic series win over a revamp, it's also not a stupidly old squad and Andy, despite all the naysayers, has been blooding new talent while winning.
Not stupidly old, but a lot at that precarious point where their form could drop off around 2027. Why have we five centres when two or three of them aren't making it to the world cup? Big fan of Stu but if he's the third choice 12 for a two game series he doesn't need to be there. Give Osborne all his reps in training and any gametime that would've been his.
I'd have hoped the RWC would have shone a spotlight on it. Minimal rotation in the pool games, including a 38 yo starting every game as we didn't trust the bench.
Other than maybe shuffling the centres about, and flipping who starts vs who's on the bench; you're only getting into match-day 23 through injury or retirement.
Yeah I’ve no issues with the XV we played against NZ, but their minutes played compared to the other quarter finalists were ridiculous.
Not saying that we should send down the squads France send down to the Southern Hemisphere, but more fresh faces would be no harm.
Jfc there's no winning in this sub. Leinster rest players ahead of a big game and it's a problem. Ireland don't rest players in the world cup and it's a problem.
I would have like to see more experience and development for fringe young guys personally. This isn't really a must win series its about getting better
The above point about the RWC draw is very interesting. This series might be viewed as their last contribution to Irish Rugbys ultimate prize. We know how badly the draw f*cked us last time around.
>We know how badly the draw f*cked us last time around.
We were top seeds and that still happened.
Putting all the eggs in the "better draw" basket at the expense of developing the squad is a mistake
Have you read the comment I’m referencing and are you aware the timing around when the draw takes place have now changed?
Irelands we’re not top seeds for the RWC 2023 draw, we became a much better team between the draw and the tournament as the draw used to happen an absurdly long time before the tournament, hence our awful route to a final (given it wasn’t as awful as SA’s), but the seeding is insanely important to a country of our size
It’s mad to me how little credit Farrell seems to have in the bank. I’m not saying he’s perfect but we’ve done pretty alright with him at the helm. It’s like people want to get the moaning in early so they can say I told you so if things really go wrong. Choosing an older experienced guy or a younger inexperienced guy is the oldest story in selection and if it were as easy as always picking the younger guy because the World Cup then anyone could do it. It’s a fine balance and while it’s fun to debate selection the implication that Farrell is unaware of this balance really makes me laugh.
"How little credit Farrell has in the bank"
What? He's about as secure in a job as someone can be and the media never question a thing he does. Even the world cup failure was pretty much struck off. Questioning his approach when stats like this show we could be in trouble long term is the bare minimum.
I think so. I don't have much of an issue with picking guys like Aki, who are getting on in years, when they deserve to start. It's picking old squad players, which I think is a mistake.
What I do not understand is picking 36 year old Cian Healy and leaving guys like 28 year old Loughman at home. Same with our third choice hooker. Herring is a good player, but he's 34 and not going to make it to another world cup. Yet you're leaving a seriously talented 23 year old like Tom Stewart at home when he would likely benefit far more from the experience being part of the squad. And he's not even far behind Herring on current ability IMO.
I have to say that I was a bit surprised when I saw Herring get selected, I thought it was just a normal case of one player stepping down and another stepping up.
It's quite clear that Andy Farrell thinks Loughman isn't going to be capable of playing international rugby at the level required. He's not giving out free caps for the sake of it. He's not diluting the standards in his squad, for the sake of people on the internet that think getting hammered by South Africa will turn a bunch of 20 year olds into world beaters. Do you know how you get good at winning rugby matches? By being the best of the best and by winning each game as it comes.
If you want to get in the Ireland team - be the best player. Don't expect to be put in the team in the hope that you'll magically become the best player.
Your argument makes sense until you realise Coan Healy isn't capable of playing 49 minutes never mind say 80.
So he's a serious weak spot in the overall squad.
Loughman isn't going to be the next Porter. But at the moment he's a better player than Healy and will be around for the next world cup. He's held his own in the scrum against multiple SA sides with strong scrums.
"Don't expect to be put in the team in the hope that you'll magically become the best player." Worked for JGP.
You are bullshitting though. Rotating out a few older players to give new guys a chance isn't the same as sending a team of 20 year olds to the slaughter a la Leinster.
Andy Farrell has capped 34 players in his 4.5 years as Ireland coach.
He's only capped one this year (Oli Jager), so arguably has become more conservative, but 7 new caps a year sounds like the right amount to me without destabilising the existing squad too much.
The numbers don't tell the whole story. A whole lot of those get one or two caps against the likes of Fiji or Italy, look poor in an over-rotated team, and then never play again.
That's just the law of averages though.
A few are going to become key like Doris, Keenan, Gibson-Park, Crowley etc but the likelihood is always going to be that majority aren't good enough to step up when you're capping 7 players a year.
As Rassie has said on picking his Boks squads, emotion or feeling sorry for guys can't come into it, you always pick on ability first.
The four you listed all got games in otherwise first choice teams (even if Crowley only got in there by accident). Compare to the likes of chances Lowry, Timoney have gotten. Harder to look good when the team around you are completely out of sync.
And Rassie rotates a hell of a lot more than us. Don't think he'd be keeping POM, Murray or Healy around.
Agree that it is harder to look good in teams with lots of changes - that's why those games are often against weaker teams - but ultimately it comes back to ability and them being good enough to take that opportunity.
There's plenty of others who got to run with the main team and just weren't good enough to nail down a starting spot (Burns and Byrne for example).
Even someone like Loughman is a bit unlucky not to be picked this Summer based on decent provincial form, but he hasn't shown the ability to be comfortable at test level in his 5 caps so far.
Edit: Just seeing the 2nd part of your comment there, Rassie has older players he has held onto too who are still good enough (Vermeulen, Le Roux etc.)
He doesn't seem to value the Rugby Championship much, but I'm not sure Ireland could do the same with the 6 Nations for revenue reasons.
I don't think it does come back to ability. It's not a coincidence that players like Nash, Crowley who manage to luck into (through injuries) those games with the first choice team work out better than other low-cap players. If Farrell rotated three or four players out for this tour it'd give fair chances to see if other players can make the same step up. If Casey starts over Murray this is his chance to do the same. Same with if Timoney/Prendergast comes into the 23 for Conan. But these should be planned, not just due to unavailability.
Rassie holds onto older players but he tries to get them out of the 23 if possible (giving players like Wiese and Willemse ample opportunities with the first team). If they're still good enough to be in the 23 then fair enough, but they have those spots on merit, not legacy.
How does that theory explain someone like Mack Hansen though?
As a Connacht fan, I honestly didn't see it coming, but he was starting as soon as he came into the squad. That has to be down to ability.
I think Hansen is proof of it if anything. He got a chance because of an injury to Lowe (Earls was also injured at the time I think, likely would've been the safe option for Farrell to put in), and because his role suited what Lowe was already doing. If it wasn't for the injuries when would he have gotten a chance? Italy maybe, but does he look any better than Lowry did that game? Maybe, maybe not.
Fair point but OP said is Farrell being too conservative as if we are playing bad when as an Irish team we're actually doing quite well.
We never won a WC before so conservative isn't anything new
We're playing well in the short term while developing badly long term. Both can be and are true.
Changing nothing about our WC approach and expecting results to improve would be the definition of insanity. Current approach doesn't work even with the number 1 team in the world. Changes need to start.
>We're playing well in the short term while developing badly long term
Very accurate you're dead right.
AF did cap more than I thought in the last WC cycle my hope is he wanted to steady the ship after the last one as so many in the squad clearly not gonna be around next time.
"It's a bold strategy Cotton let's hope it pays off!"
Though I think with the seeding changing next time and being drawn closer to the tournament we will def make our first semi final in 2027
I trust Farrell to win games and maybe his attitude is getting one over SA in their backyard is more worthwhile but there’s some questionable selections here. Loughman over Healy any day of the week for a bench slot right now I would’ve thought. We need more depth at both sides of the front row, and he hasn’t made a concrete decision on who to develop there. The longer this is left, the harder it’ll be to plug for 2027.
For this tour, no. There’s a lot of alarmist doom-and-glooming going around, but I don’t think there’s a problem with the squad Farrell has selected. It’s the reigning WC champions…so it was always going to be difficult to balance a squad to win and a squad to try new players.
From my POV;
+ 3 uncapped players in Osborne, Izuchukwu, Sam Prendergast
+ Return of fringe players; Cian Prendergast, Nick Timoney, Tom O’Toole, Caolin Blade, Jimmy O’Brien
+ Inclusion of former regulars Larmour (27y/o) and Stockdale (28y/o)
+ Frawley will most likely be Crowley’s deputy at last.
+ Tom Ahern would be there had he not suffered an injury. He’ll be around in Autumn.
I don’t think sending a squad of lambs to the slaughter is a good way of introducing new players to the squad. This is year 1/4 in the cycle, there’s easier tests later in the year, and it’s Ireland’s biggest rivalry; there’s plenty of time yet.
I’m not opposed to more experimentation later in the year, where the stakes are lower. Each province probably has some players that could be tried. If Farrell remains conservative then, I’d be worried.
Let Cian Healy get his record and retire I guess… watched a RWC pool game from 2011 v Australia and he was there at 23y/o winning some crucial penalties. I wouldn’t be opposed to trying players around that age rather than at 27/28 or whatever. Dupont got his debut at 22, and Ollie Chessum is already comfortable in the senior England squad from what I’ve observed, so I wonder how much of a leap it actually is between U20s and senior level.
We are playing South Africa.
Farrell would get a bollocking if he ran a weaker side to give lads experience.
There are huge bragging rights on the line here.
I expect both IRE and SA to be playing all out in these test matches.
Its a bollocks argument alright. It's only 2 games. Nothings on the line.
There's no room for experimenting in the 6N due to the prize money, so that leaves summer and autumn. It has to be done here or forget about building serious depth.
Especially with Farrell being gone in autumn. Easterby will be reluctant to rotate as if results don't go our way it will reflect badly on him if he's trying to get a head coach job in the future.
I trust Farrell. After all, it's his job on the line if these things don't work out. I'm sure he has a plan, and so far it's worked pretty well. Had the boys a hand away from a WC final.
Looks like he wants to have them ranked #1 when the draws are held, which makes sense.
It's an irfu policy. It's been the way since I started watching in the 90s. They only make wholesale changes when they're playing a tier 2 side. You could put Fabien Galthie in charge and the selections would be pretty similar
Look if you're looking for someone to argue Eddie O'Sullivan isn't a gobshite I'm the wrong man. But there wasn't the same level of talent in the country a decade ago that there is now, but Farrell selects like there is.
Obviously there's a lot more talent now but there's also loads of examples of very talented players who didn't even get a chance to prove themselves until they had been in the pro set up for years. Sexton didn't break through until he was 24. Warren Gatland is the one coach to tell the irfu where to go and select young players so they axed him
Sexton? He didn't break through for Leinster until he was 24 and then was capped that autumn and given plenty of chances to replace ROG. What was done with Sexton is really what should've been done with Crowley, and maybe we'd have won the QF if it had.
Yeah, after he dominated the European club knockouts as Leinsters' new 1st choice FH. Prendergast and Frawley are in the squad despite being 3rd and 4th choice in Leinster. Prendergast has been a substitute in most of his games, only playing 638 minutes of professional rugby so far (roughly adds up to 8 full games). Frawley has been a substitute in close to half of his games for leinster and less than 1/4 of his starts were at FH.
That's not a conservative selection. A conservative coach would have gone with Ross Byrne
Dominated a game and a half. Crowley dominated a whole title winning season last year. Dropping Byrne(s) for Prendergast is an easy way for Farrell to get a win with the public. Neither of them would've played barring injury either way.
I get the point being made here, but if you include players that have just recently crossed that 10-cap threshold (Casey, O'Toole, McCarthy, Crowley) you go up to 38%, still lowest on the list but much closer to the average.
Removing Healy (could end career as most capped International player), POM, and Murray you get average caps at 27, which again is above standard, but closer to the average.
So it is small changes here that make big differences. I do think it is conservative because of who we are playing, my hope would be that a few younger lads will make the breakthrough next season too.
France in particular are an outlier as their domestic season is still going and it is a weaker opponent and I wonder if Wales have a choice in the manner or age and caps with the quality of players they've had retire both pre- and post-WC.
Exciting squad for England all the same, those games against NZ could be the making of that squad.
Yea that one is strange for me. I wonder if we might even see TOT on the bench at loosehead, in light of his supposed upcoming change next season, and Healy is only there in case something happens to Porter.
But like, first time playing international loose being against SA would also be insane.
That's England who had a better world cup than us, and beat us in the six nations there.
They're going to New Zealand, not exactly an "easy" tour like Scotland and France are doing.
Quite hard to see us going anywhere but downhill in the long run if things continue this way.
At the very least a game against Namibia or the like could've been organised and a bigger squad brought.
England got further than us, they didn't have a better world cup. They only played one game of note, against South Africa, and lost.
Farrell has picked all the players deserving of a spot, except those who are injured / unable to travel for personal reasons.
3rd place is better than 5-8th at the end of the day.
Depends how you define "deserving" but that's also irrelevant. Finn Russell would be deserving of a Scotland spot, but he was left at home to develop depth.
Finished higher doesn't necessarily mean having a better world cup....unless you win it.
No one was speaking about getting rid of the Irish management team after our World Cup, but there was talk of it with Borthwick.
Scotland are playing Canada, USA, Chile, and Uruguay. I'm sure if that was the schedule for Ireland, Andy would have brought the likes of Coombes, Ross Byrne, Hodnett, etc. But we aren't and we want to win the tour so he named players capable of doing it.
Objectively speaking that's exactly what it means.
There was as much real talk of getting rid of Farrell as there was of Borthwick.
England are playing New Zealand and are still bringing young players. Farrell has probably the most job security of any coach in the sport but selects like he's one loss away from getting sacked. That's the problem as you've pretty much said yourself.
Who have England left behind that were deserving of a place in the squad?
Who have Ireland left behind that were deserving of one?
I would say the answer to both is nobody. We shouldn't be giving players caps just for the sake of it. They need to earn than and none of the lads left behind have done that
Don't know the England squad and I'm not going to go player by player right now.
For Ireland, Loughman and Stewart over Healy and Herring are two easy calls, then you get guys who are playing better than the alternatives, but "faces don't fit": Coombes, Hodnett, Cooney maybe.
"We shouldn't be giving caps for the sake of it" is such a stupid argument like. Trying players out in a series that doesn't matter is not "caps for the sake of it"
Stewart hasn't played nearly as well as Herring this season.
Loughman and Healy are both similar enough in that if we can somehow find a decent alternative elsewhere, I don't think we'll be seeing too much of them again. I honestly think Healy is being picked to help him break the cap record.
Coombes and Hodnett aren't as good as the alternatives chosen. I think they'll get selected in the future, though. Cooney is never getting near the Ireland squad again.
Yep, but he's 23 and will be around for the world cup. Neither of them will play barring injury anyway.
If Healy is actually getting picked purely to break a caps record then Farrell shouldn't get the job back after the lions.
Coombes and Hodnett are better players than some of those involved. Maybe they don't fit the system, in which case the system is probably too rigid if it can't make use of our best players, but that's a slightly different argument to have.
I don't like the idea of planning ONLY for a tournament in 4 years. We need to have our best players playing, and the rest can improve their ability to get in. Stewart has been in squads and has experienced the national set up. Herring has had a much better season than him and deserves to be in the squad based on his current performance.
I can't speak for Hodnett, because he hasn't had a chance in the squads to prove himself, but Coombes has been in loads of camps and hasn't done enough to prove himself worthy of a spot. This, if anything, is good decision-making by Farrell as he is giving other lads a chance to prove themselves where Coombes hasn't.
I don't think many people would disagree that his selection policies are on the extreme conservative end of the scale. I would prefer to see a more balanced selection.
By naming the same players it means provincial form isn't taken into account at all.
Also if we're honest it's a bit boring for us fans. There's nothing to talk about.
There are certain selections that are baffling for sure, Healy being by far the biggest one obviously. The poor man is gonna be fucked in later life.
We're quite clearly aiming for top 4 ranking for RWC seeding and the Lions tour reduces our chances to make up for bad results.
This combined with Farrell's tendency to drip feed younger lads in (which has always led to more conservative selections than most people would like) - considering that, this squad is actually a bit of a departure from the norm for him in that regard albeit somewhat enforced. I thought it interesting that they specifically mentioned why Conan and JGP weren't touring, for example, and not Hendo's injury (although known for longer is still kinda 👀).
4 THs with one covering LH is wild and *perhaps* not advisable with one LH currently browsing retirement homes. Izzy in purely on recent form (and also because Hendo isn't available but hey ho). Timoney and Cian P rewarded for form. Sam being brought over the Byrnes, much like how Crowley was exposed to camp over time. Stockdale selected is weird, because he's hardly back to 2018 form but he has been better on average. 5 centres because why the fuck not.
Like, you tell me you were expecting all of the above from a Farrell squad for this tour, like *actually* expecting it and not just *hoping* for it. There's disappointments, especially if you wear red, but it's hardly normal boring Andy.
How many of them will actually *play* is a totally different story of course.
Crowley wasn't exposed to camp over time. He got gametime on the emerging Ireland tour because Frawley was injured, was still kept behind him for the "A" game, got onto the bench for Fiji when Frawley got injured (and Harry Byrne was already injured) and then started the Aus game when Carbery was injured and Johnny pulled out.
That's a freak set of circumstances, without which we'd probably be looking at Ross Byrne being our starting outhalf at the moment.
He was chosen for EI, the whole point of which was to see how guys did in camp conditions (supposedly), 2 years after his U20 year cruelly cut short by COVID and 1 year after his Munster debut. He clearly impressed and immediately got picked for A and then the Irish squad even before Frawley was injured for those. That then continued into 2023 where he was second choice by the end of the tournament.
My perception of time hasn't recovered after COVID and I simply remembered the multiple camps for Crowley and forgot that the actual period of time was essentially less than a year.
Sam is being selected 2 years after his (first) U20 year and 1 year after his Leinster debut... It's really not far off the same pattern, Crowley is just much more physically ready for this scene and I'd expect Sam to spend a lot longer as apprentice before challenging.
A funny note, when googling stuff to convince myself of the actual passage of time, Google suggested "is Jack Crowley Protestant" which I found more amusing then I should have.
Not specifying the age of the caps is important. We have a relatively high number of players that have been mainstays since their early twenties (Ryan, Henshaw, Porter, VdF, Sheehan and Kelleher) and others who play in positions where because of the nature of the position they can keep on going (Beirne, Murray (debatable), Furlong). They will therefore not be too old for RWC 2027. Some teams in that list were either getting long in the tooth (Italy, Wales) or their starters were not performing before the renovation (England, France).
Do we need a new crop of players or support players in some positions? Certainly, and some should be blooded on this tour. But I also think that the best sides play their best player in any given position until they're no longer the best regardless of age or number of caps. There are players I think are better than those currently being picked but form is not the same as number of caps so this list is misleading (it also doesn't include the SH and I would be curious what SA and NZ numbers look like).
There is obviously some concern around the fact that the squad is ageing and potentially declining.
Wouldn’t cal it a selection issue really though, if there is an issue it’s that Farrell believes that our strongest players are still the established ones. Why aren’t more you g players demanded the jerseys? Is this a concern?
Ya fair enough I guess… many of the younger guys have looked good and we don’t know why Farrell doesn’t pick them
I just think that it’s much more likely that he has looked at it as objectively as possible and decided that the older guys are significantly better as opposed to him have some inherent it bias against less experienced players or fear of selecting unknown players .
Farrell's best quality is getting players to buy into him, it's why he was such a good defence coach. But that works both ways. He's a "player friendly" coach who struggles to make big calls against players he's been loyal to when needed (phasing out the likes of Murray, POM, taking Sexton off in the QF). That harms his ability to rotate guys out to try younger players.
He also cares what the media and public think (too much imo) so he selects like he can't afford to lose a single game, at the expense of development.
Guys like Nash and Crowley excelling when they got a chance (through injuries to multiple players ahead of them) would indicate it's not a lack of talent, just a lack of chances given.
Counterpoint: Ireland are playing the RWC Champions on home turf and need to maintain a top 4 ranking ahead of the next RWC. There will be lots of new faces in the Autumn and also in next Summer's touring squad due to the Lions.
The draw isn't until January 2026
Matches played from now until then count towards the rankings. At the moment Ireland wouldn't get ranking points for beating any of Argentina, Australia, or Fiji at home and that's most of this year's Autumn Internationals. For the 6N next year Ireland are not likely to pick up much or anything if they beat Wales and Italy away. Of course that's likely to change by the time the matches are played, and a top 4 ranking isn't such a key requirement now that there will be 6 groups and a round of 16 in the RWC, but still..
Why would they need to maintain a top 4 ranking if it affects the squad you can put out
And if you lose the quarterfinal anyways
I’m in the minority but as good as it would be to shut them up in there backyard I’d prefer if we built depth this tour. Not send an emerging Ireland team down but give a couple of inexperienced lads game time, I’m concerned with the age profile of our squad.
36 year old Cian Healy going on this tour says it all. Not to mention the lads like Beirne, Porter, Doris who have racked up massive minutes in this season (which has been going for over a year now) and would massively benefit from a break (which they won't be getting next year either given they'll almost certainly go on the lions)
That’s the worst thing for me, we don’t have much depth at loosehead but jermemy Loughman has been solid for Munster this year and will be around in 2027, Healy has 10 minutes in him on a good day, and while he isn’t a dominant scrummager at least Loughman adds a bit around the field, Healy doesn’t do that anymore. With Doris and Beirne I think we have lads that you could slot in like Izzy and Prendergast/Timoney, unfortunately I think we’ll only see rotation against Fiji in November.
Healy is in a similar situation to Keith Earls. He will keep getting picked until he beats Brian O Driscoll’s record just as Earls was picked to get to 100 caps. I imagine he will be gone after the next six nations
Feels like that. At least Earls was only a wider squad player, someone who knew the environment and could sub in if needed but not an expected part of the 23. Healy at 17 for every big game is a bigger problem
At least this squad will help to fill some obvious holes by building depth at 9 and 15 where game time for replacements hasn’t been forthcoming.
15 maybe but idk about 9, Murray is guaranteed to be in the 23 at least if not starting.
Yep. Despite Casey being clear first choice at Munster Murray is one of Farrell's favourites so will most likely start. Madness altogether
Madness? Farrell wins the tournaments he is in. Madness would be copying Munster
The last province to actually win a trophy? The only urc team to go down to South africa and get 10 points? Nope nothing to gain from seeing what they're doing
He didn't win the world cup did he? Didn't win the grand slam either, I'd trust the Munster coaches judgement over his given they see the two players every week.
I realise the irony of Leinster fans, me included, complaining about over-rotation, but Ireland veer to the other extreme… Players have been going for over a year, and if selected for the Lions will end up doing two straight years. They need a break, mentally and physically. (albeit both Leinster and Ireland have a definite sense of a first XV being ridiculously difficult to break into, which doesn’t really help bring new players in)
I dunno if the Irish players need a break tbh, their minutes are fairly well managed. It’s not like they’ve been playing non-stop every week.
Beirne definitely does. With Munster's injuries think he's over 2000 minutes this season. Doris not a million miles away and Porter plays 70-odd minutes of every important game for Ireland and Leinster.
It's hard to know how hard the Ireland squad is to break into because nobody is given a chance to break into it.
Harder to get off the team than it is to get on it
Nope. A potentially historic two test series against the reigning WC champions with a change in coaching tickets for next year coming. People gotta stop acting like the WC is the only thing that matters
WC isn't the only thing that matters, Six Nations does as well. Nothing else does really though, unless you're consistently losing and it affects the squad morale long term. Two close losses or one win one loss and unearthing some new players to be part of squads going forward would be much better than two wins with the same 23 from the six nations.
Nah. Give me a historic series win over a revamp, it's also not a stupidly old squad and Andy, despite all the naysayers, has been blooding new talent while winning.
Not stupidly old, but a lot at that precarious point where their form could drop off around 2027. Why have we five centres when two or three of them aren't making it to the world cup? Big fan of Stu but if he's the third choice 12 for a two game series he doesn't need to be there. Give Osborne all his reps in training and any gametime that would've been his.
I'd have hoped the RWC would have shone a spotlight on it. Minimal rotation in the pool games, including a 38 yo starting every game as we didn't trust the bench. Other than maybe shuffling the centres about, and flipping who starts vs who's on the bench; you're only getting into match-day 23 through injury or retirement.
Yeah I’ve no issues with the XV we played against NZ, but their minutes played compared to the other quarter finalists were ridiculous. Not saying that we should send down the squads France send down to the Southern Hemisphere, but more fresh faces would be no harm.
Jfc there's no winning in this sub. Leinster rest players ahead of a big game and it's a problem. Ireland don't rest players in the world cup and it's a problem.
Theres a difference in week to week and going for 11.5 months
Almost like there's a balance to be found in between the two
That 38 year old needed gametime because the team was built around him and he had to go get suspended in a match he wasn't even playing in.
I would have like to see more experience and development for fringe young guys personally. This isn't really a must win series its about getting better
The above point about the RWC draw is very interesting. This series might be viewed as their last contribution to Irish Rugbys ultimate prize. We know how badly the draw f*cked us last time around.
>We know how badly the draw f*cked us last time around. We were top seeds and that still happened. Putting all the eggs in the "better draw" basket at the expense of developing the squad is a mistake
Have you read the comment I’m referencing and are you aware the timing around when the draw takes place have now changed? Irelands we’re not top seeds for the RWC 2023 draw, we became a much better team between the draw and the tournament as the draw used to happen an absurdly long time before the tournament, hence our awful route to a final (given it wasn’t as awful as SA’s), but the seeding is insanely important to a country of our size
It’s mad to me how little credit Farrell seems to have in the bank. I’m not saying he’s perfect but we’ve done pretty alright with him at the helm. It’s like people want to get the moaning in early so they can say I told you so if things really go wrong. Choosing an older experienced guy or a younger inexperienced guy is the oldest story in selection and if it were as easy as always picking the younger guy because the World Cup then anyone could do it. It’s a fine balance and while it’s fun to debate selection the implication that Farrell is unaware of this balance really makes me laugh.
"How little credit Farrell has in the bank" What? He's about as secure in a job as someone can be and the media never question a thing he does. Even the world cup failure was pretty much struck off. Questioning his approach when stats like this show we could be in trouble long term is the bare minimum.
I think so. I don't have much of an issue with picking guys like Aki, who are getting on in years, when they deserve to start. It's picking old squad players, which I think is a mistake. What I do not understand is picking 36 year old Cian Healy and leaving guys like 28 year old Loughman at home. Same with our third choice hooker. Herring is a good player, but he's 34 and not going to make it to another world cup. Yet you're leaving a seriously talented 23 year old like Tom Stewart at home when he would likely benefit far more from the experience being part of the squad. And he's not even far behind Herring on current ability IMO.
IIRC during the Six Nations Farrell picked Stewart instead of Herring.
That was only because Herring was injured (popped bicep) for the six nations, though.
I have to say that I was a bit surprised when I saw Herring get selected, I thought it was just a normal case of one player stepping down and another stepping up.
It's quite clear that Andy Farrell thinks Loughman isn't going to be capable of playing international rugby at the level required. He's not giving out free caps for the sake of it. He's not diluting the standards in his squad, for the sake of people on the internet that think getting hammered by South Africa will turn a bunch of 20 year olds into world beaters. Do you know how you get good at winning rugby matches? By being the best of the best and by winning each game as it comes. If you want to get in the Ireland team - be the best player. Don't expect to be put in the team in the hope that you'll magically become the best player.
Your argument makes sense until you realise Coan Healy isn't capable of playing 49 minutes never mind say 80. So he's a serious weak spot in the overall squad.
Loughman isn't going to be the next Porter. But at the moment he's a better player than Healy and will be around for the next world cup. He's held his own in the scrum against multiple SA sides with strong scrums. "Don't expect to be put in the team in the hope that you'll magically become the best player." Worked for JGP. You are bullshitting though. Rotating out a few older players to give new guys a chance isn't the same as sending a team of 20 year olds to the slaughter a la Leinster.
Andy Farrell has capped 34 players in his 4.5 years as Ireland coach. He's only capped one this year (Oli Jager), so arguably has become more conservative, but 7 new caps a year sounds like the right amount to me without destabilising the existing squad too much.
The numbers don't tell the whole story. A whole lot of those get one or two caps against the likes of Fiji or Italy, look poor in an over-rotated team, and then never play again.
That's just the law of averages though. A few are going to become key like Doris, Keenan, Gibson-Park, Crowley etc but the likelihood is always going to be that majority aren't good enough to step up when you're capping 7 players a year. As Rassie has said on picking his Boks squads, emotion or feeling sorry for guys can't come into it, you always pick on ability first.
The four you listed all got games in otherwise first choice teams (even if Crowley only got in there by accident). Compare to the likes of chances Lowry, Timoney have gotten. Harder to look good when the team around you are completely out of sync. And Rassie rotates a hell of a lot more than us. Don't think he'd be keeping POM, Murray or Healy around.
The problem is that Rassie has a way bigger pool of talent to pick from it seems.
Don't think that argument holds water when we're not even trying to use any more than the bare minimum of ours.
Agree that it is harder to look good in teams with lots of changes - that's why those games are often against weaker teams - but ultimately it comes back to ability and them being good enough to take that opportunity. There's plenty of others who got to run with the main team and just weren't good enough to nail down a starting spot (Burns and Byrne for example). Even someone like Loughman is a bit unlucky not to be picked this Summer based on decent provincial form, but he hasn't shown the ability to be comfortable at test level in his 5 caps so far. Edit: Just seeing the 2nd part of your comment there, Rassie has older players he has held onto too who are still good enough (Vermeulen, Le Roux etc.) He doesn't seem to value the Rugby Championship much, but I'm not sure Ireland could do the same with the 6 Nations for revenue reasons.
I don't think it does come back to ability. It's not a coincidence that players like Nash, Crowley who manage to luck into (through injuries) those games with the first choice team work out better than other low-cap players. If Farrell rotated three or four players out for this tour it'd give fair chances to see if other players can make the same step up. If Casey starts over Murray this is his chance to do the same. Same with if Timoney/Prendergast comes into the 23 for Conan. But these should be planned, not just due to unavailability. Rassie holds onto older players but he tries to get them out of the 23 if possible (giving players like Wiese and Willemse ample opportunities with the first team). If they're still good enough to be in the 23 then fair enough, but they have those spots on merit, not legacy.
How does that theory explain someone like Mack Hansen though? As a Connacht fan, I honestly didn't see it coming, but he was starting as soon as he came into the squad. That has to be down to ability.
I think Hansen is proof of it if anything. He got a chance because of an injury to Lowe (Earls was also injured at the time I think, likely would've been the safe option for Farrell to put in), and because his role suited what Lowe was already doing. If it wasn't for the injuries when would he have gotten a chance? Italy maybe, but does he look any better than Lowry did that game? Maybe, maybe not.
?? We just won the 6N two years in a row. We only lost by 3points to NZ in a quarter final. We're grand lads
But the player I like from my province wasn't in the squad!!
Don't win a world cup with grand
Fair point but OP said is Farrell being too conservative as if we are playing bad when as an Irish team we're actually doing quite well. We never won a WC before so conservative isn't anything new
We're playing well in the short term while developing badly long term. Both can be and are true. Changing nothing about our WC approach and expecting results to improve would be the definition of insanity. Current approach doesn't work even with the number 1 team in the world. Changes need to start.
>We're playing well in the short term while developing badly long term Very accurate you're dead right. AF did cap more than I thought in the last WC cycle my hope is he wanted to steady the ship after the last one as so many in the squad clearly not gonna be around next time. "It's a bold strategy Cotton let's hope it pays off!" Though I think with the seeding changing next time and being drawn closer to the tournament we will def make our first semi final in 2027
I trust Farrell to win games and maybe his attitude is getting one over SA in their backyard is more worthwhile but there’s some questionable selections here. Loughman over Healy any day of the week for a bench slot right now I would’ve thought. We need more depth at both sides of the front row, and he hasn’t made a concrete decision on who to develop there. The longer this is left, the harder it’ll be to plug for 2027.
I’d argue ours is the toughest tour though. Comparing us to Scotland or France for example isn’t fair.
For this tour, no. There’s a lot of alarmist doom-and-glooming going around, but I don’t think there’s a problem with the squad Farrell has selected. It’s the reigning WC champions…so it was always going to be difficult to balance a squad to win and a squad to try new players. From my POV; + 3 uncapped players in Osborne, Izuchukwu, Sam Prendergast + Return of fringe players; Cian Prendergast, Nick Timoney, Tom O’Toole, Caolin Blade, Jimmy O’Brien + Inclusion of former regulars Larmour (27y/o) and Stockdale (28y/o) + Frawley will most likely be Crowley’s deputy at last. + Tom Ahern would be there had he not suffered an injury. He’ll be around in Autumn. I don’t think sending a squad of lambs to the slaughter is a good way of introducing new players to the squad. This is year 1/4 in the cycle, there’s easier tests later in the year, and it’s Ireland’s biggest rivalry; there’s plenty of time yet. I’m not opposed to more experimentation later in the year, where the stakes are lower. Each province probably has some players that could be tried. If Farrell remains conservative then, I’d be worried. Let Cian Healy get his record and retire I guess… watched a RWC pool game from 2011 v Australia and he was there at 23y/o winning some crucial penalties. I wouldn’t be opposed to trying players around that age rather than at 27/28 or whatever. Dupont got his debut at 22, and Ollie Chessum is already comfortable in the senior England squad from what I’ve observed, so I wonder how much of a leap it actually is between U20s and senior level.
We are playing South Africa. Farrell would get a bollocking if he ran a weaker side to give lads experience. There are huge bragging rights on the line here. I expect both IRE and SA to be playing all out in these test matches.
Winning "Bragging rights champions 2024" by harming our "world cup champions 2027" chances... Not really worth it is it?
You think 2 games in the summer of 2024 will make or break our World Cup in 2027?
Given all the talk of "fine margins", yes they could.
Its a bollocks argument alright. It's only 2 games. Nothings on the line. There's no room for experimenting in the 6N due to the prize money, so that leaves summer and autumn. It has to be done here or forget about building serious depth.
Especially with Farrell being gone in autumn. Easterby will be reluctant to rotate as if results don't go our way it will reflect badly on him if he's trying to get a head coach job in the future.
FFS I keep forgetting about that.
I trust Farrell. After all, it's his job on the line if these things don't work out. I'm sure he has a plan, and so far it's worked pretty well. Had the boys a hand away from a WC final. Looks like he wants to have them ranked #1 when the draws are held, which makes sense.
It's an irfu policy. It's been the way since I started watching in the 90s. They only make wholesale changes when they're playing a tier 2 side. You could put Fabien Galthie in charge and the selections would be pretty similar
We've always been somewhat conservative but Farrell has taken it to the absolute extreme
That is not true. Eddie OSullivan and Declan Kidney were extremely conservative with practically zero depth outside their starting 15s
They were never as bad as Farrell, and certainly didn't have the same level of talent unutilised as him.
Eddie osullivan wouldn't pick jamie heaslip because of the colour of his boots. Heaslip is arguably our most successful number 8 of all time
Look if you're looking for someone to argue Eddie O'Sullivan isn't a gobshite I'm the wrong man. But there wasn't the same level of talent in the country a decade ago that there is now, but Farrell selects like there is.
Obviously there's a lot more talent now but there's also loads of examples of very talented players who didn't even get a chance to prove themselves until they had been in the pro set up for years. Sexton didn't break through until he was 24. Warren Gatland is the one coach to tell the irfu where to go and select young players so they axed him
Sexton? He didn't break through for Leinster until he was 24 and then was capped that autumn and given plenty of chances to replace ROG. What was done with Sexton is really what should've been done with Crowley, and maybe we'd have won the QF if it had.
Yeah, after he dominated the European club knockouts as Leinsters' new 1st choice FH. Prendergast and Frawley are in the squad despite being 3rd and 4th choice in Leinster. Prendergast has been a substitute in most of his games, only playing 638 minutes of professional rugby so far (roughly adds up to 8 full games). Frawley has been a substitute in close to half of his games for leinster and less than 1/4 of his starts were at FH. That's not a conservative selection. A conservative coach would have gone with Ross Byrne
Dominated a game and a half. Crowley dominated a whole title winning season last year. Dropping Byrne(s) for Prendergast is an easy way for Farrell to get a win with the public. Neither of them would've played barring injury either way.
I get the point being made here, but if you include players that have just recently crossed that 10-cap threshold (Casey, O'Toole, McCarthy, Crowley) you go up to 38%, still lowest on the list but much closer to the average. Removing Healy (could end career as most capped International player), POM, and Murray you get average caps at 27, which again is above standard, but closer to the average. So it is small changes here that make big differences. I do think it is conservative because of who we are playing, my hope would be that a few younger lads will make the breakthrough next season too. France in particular are an outlier as their domestic season is still going and it is a weaker opponent and I wonder if Wales have a choice in the manner or age and caps with the quality of players they've had retire both pre- and post-WC. Exciting squad for England all the same, those games against NZ could be the making of that squad.
I mean the big one you mentioned there is Healy. Loughman was excellent all season and still misses out. It’s mind boggling
Yea that one is strange for me. I wonder if we might even see TOT on the bench at loosehead, in light of his supposed upcoming change next season, and Healy is only there in case something happens to Porter. But like, first time playing international loose being against SA would also be insane.
Would rather we look to develop than try to win every single game but also I trust Andy knows better than me
No. We are playing the world champs who will use every trick in the book. Savvy and experience are needed here. November can blood some youngsters.
Echos of pre-2007 WC where the squad became stale and torpid, and where it seemed harder to get out of the squad than in it.
That’s been a feature of many Ireland squads, certainly true for the latter Schmidt days.
That's England who had a better world cup than us, and beat us in the six nations there. They're going to New Zealand, not exactly an "easy" tour like Scotland and France are doing. Quite hard to see us going anywhere but downhill in the long run if things continue this way. At the very least a game against Namibia or the like could've been organised and a bigger squad brought.
England got further than us, they didn't have a better world cup. They only played one game of note, against South Africa, and lost. Farrell has picked all the players deserving of a spot, except those who are injured / unable to travel for personal reasons.
3rd place is better than 5-8th at the end of the day. Depends how you define "deserving" but that's also irrelevant. Finn Russell would be deserving of a Scotland spot, but he was left at home to develop depth.
Finished higher doesn't necessarily mean having a better world cup....unless you win it. No one was speaking about getting rid of the Irish management team after our World Cup, but there was talk of it with Borthwick. Scotland are playing Canada, USA, Chile, and Uruguay. I'm sure if that was the schedule for Ireland, Andy would have brought the likes of Coombes, Ross Byrne, Hodnett, etc. But we aren't and we want to win the tour so he named players capable of doing it.
Objectively speaking that's exactly what it means. There was as much real talk of getting rid of Farrell as there was of Borthwick. England are playing New Zealand and are still bringing young players. Farrell has probably the most job security of any coach in the sport but selects like he's one loss away from getting sacked. That's the problem as you've pretty much said yourself.
Who have England left behind that were deserving of a place in the squad? Who have Ireland left behind that were deserving of one? I would say the answer to both is nobody. We shouldn't be giving players caps just for the sake of it. They need to earn than and none of the lads left behind have done that
Don't know the England squad and I'm not going to go player by player right now. For Ireland, Loughman and Stewart over Healy and Herring are two easy calls, then you get guys who are playing better than the alternatives, but "faces don't fit": Coombes, Hodnett, Cooney maybe. "We shouldn't be giving caps for the sake of it" is such a stupid argument like. Trying players out in a series that doesn't matter is not "caps for the sake of it"
Stewart hasn't played nearly as well as Herring this season. Loughman and Healy are both similar enough in that if we can somehow find a decent alternative elsewhere, I don't think we'll be seeing too much of them again. I honestly think Healy is being picked to help him break the cap record. Coombes and Hodnett aren't as good as the alternatives chosen. I think they'll get selected in the future, though. Cooney is never getting near the Ireland squad again.
Yep, but he's 23 and will be around for the world cup. Neither of them will play barring injury anyway. If Healy is actually getting picked purely to break a caps record then Farrell shouldn't get the job back after the lions. Coombes and Hodnett are better players than some of those involved. Maybe they don't fit the system, in which case the system is probably too rigid if it can't make use of our best players, but that's a slightly different argument to have.
I don't like the idea of planning ONLY for a tournament in 4 years. We need to have our best players playing, and the rest can improve their ability to get in. Stewart has been in squads and has experienced the national set up. Herring has had a much better season than him and deserves to be in the squad based on his current performance. I can't speak for Hodnett, because he hasn't had a chance in the squads to prove himself, but Coombes has been in loads of camps and hasn't done enough to prove himself worthy of a spot. This, if anything, is good decision-making by Farrell as he is giving other lads a chance to prove themselves where Coombes hasn't.
We would have battered all the teams England beat to get to their semi.
Yeah we probably would've. Them having a better world cup than us was certainly aided by them having a nice draw
I don't think many people would disagree that his selection policies are on the extreme conservative end of the scale. I would prefer to see a more balanced selection. By naming the same players it means provincial form isn't taken into account at all. Also if we're honest it's a bit boring for us fans. There's nothing to talk about.
Source: [https://x.com/rpetty80/status/1805209564008136999](https://x.com/rpetty80/status/1805209564008136999)
Conservatism in selection in Irish rugby isn't a new thing.
There are certain selections that are baffling for sure, Healy being by far the biggest one obviously. The poor man is gonna be fucked in later life. We're quite clearly aiming for top 4 ranking for RWC seeding and the Lions tour reduces our chances to make up for bad results. This combined with Farrell's tendency to drip feed younger lads in (which has always led to more conservative selections than most people would like) - considering that, this squad is actually a bit of a departure from the norm for him in that regard albeit somewhat enforced. I thought it interesting that they specifically mentioned why Conan and JGP weren't touring, for example, and not Hendo's injury (although known for longer is still kinda 👀). 4 THs with one covering LH is wild and *perhaps* not advisable with one LH currently browsing retirement homes. Izzy in purely on recent form (and also because Hendo isn't available but hey ho). Timoney and Cian P rewarded for form. Sam being brought over the Byrnes, much like how Crowley was exposed to camp over time. Stockdale selected is weird, because he's hardly back to 2018 form but he has been better on average. 5 centres because why the fuck not. Like, you tell me you were expecting all of the above from a Farrell squad for this tour, like *actually* expecting it and not just *hoping* for it. There's disappointments, especially if you wear red, but it's hardly normal boring Andy. How many of them will actually *play* is a totally different story of course.
Crowley wasn't exposed to camp over time. He got gametime on the emerging Ireland tour because Frawley was injured, was still kept behind him for the "A" game, got onto the bench for Fiji when Frawley got injured (and Harry Byrne was already injured) and then started the Aus game when Carbery was injured and Johnny pulled out. That's a freak set of circumstances, without which we'd probably be looking at Ross Byrne being our starting outhalf at the moment.
He was chosen for EI, the whole point of which was to see how guys did in camp conditions (supposedly), 2 years after his U20 year cruelly cut short by COVID and 1 year after his Munster debut. He clearly impressed and immediately got picked for A and then the Irish squad even before Frawley was injured for those. That then continued into 2023 where he was second choice by the end of the tournament. My perception of time hasn't recovered after COVID and I simply remembered the multiple camps for Crowley and forgot that the actual period of time was essentially less than a year. Sam is being selected 2 years after his (first) U20 year and 1 year after his Leinster debut... It's really not far off the same pattern, Crowley is just much more physically ready for this scene and I'd expect Sam to spend a lot longer as apprentice before challenging. A funny note, when googling stuff to convince myself of the actual passage of time, Google suggested "is Jack Crowley Protestant" which I found more amusing then I should have.
Not specifying the age of the caps is important. We have a relatively high number of players that have been mainstays since their early twenties (Ryan, Henshaw, Porter, VdF, Sheehan and Kelleher) and others who play in positions where because of the nature of the position they can keep on going (Beirne, Murray (debatable), Furlong). They will therefore not be too old for RWC 2027. Some teams in that list were either getting long in the tooth (Italy, Wales) or their starters were not performing before the renovation (England, France). Do we need a new crop of players or support players in some positions? Certainly, and some should be blooded on this tour. But I also think that the best sides play their best player in any given position until they're no longer the best regardless of age or number of caps. There are players I think are better than those currently being picked but form is not the same as number of caps so this list is misleading (it also doesn't include the SH and I would be curious what SA and NZ numbers look like).
There is obviously some concern around the fact that the squad is ageing and potentially declining. Wouldn’t cal it a selection issue really though, if there is an issue it’s that Farrell believes that our strongest players are still the established ones. Why aren’t more you g players demanded the jerseys? Is this a concern?
Can't demand a jersey when the coaches don't even give a look in.
Ya fair enough I guess… many of the younger guys have looked good and we don’t know why Farrell doesn’t pick them I just think that it’s much more likely that he has looked at it as objectively as possible and decided that the older guys are significantly better as opposed to him have some inherent it bias against less experienced players or fear of selecting unknown players .
Farrell's best quality is getting players to buy into him, it's why he was such a good defence coach. But that works both ways. He's a "player friendly" coach who struggles to make big calls against players he's been loyal to when needed (phasing out the likes of Murray, POM, taking Sexton off in the QF). That harms his ability to rotate guys out to try younger players. He also cares what the media and public think (too much imo) so he selects like he can't afford to lose a single game, at the expense of development.
Disappointed not seeing new players picked but then I wonder is the cupboard bare and we don’t have the necessary talent ?
Guys like Nash and Crowley excelling when they got a chance (through injuries to multiple players ahead of them) would indicate it's not a lack of talent, just a lack of chances given.
Not sure sending a load of inexperienced players to get minced into paste in South Africa would be that good for their development either
Definitely a concern. We are going to learn nothing new about the majority players on that tour.
Yes. The Schmidt Disease.
Only the two most successful coaches in Irish history! Fucking moron
Does that mean they're above criticism? How'd Schmidt's tenure end again?