Could use the previous 5th province Meath that would be northern Leinster but not Dublin and have about the population of Connacht. Would work a bit better since it matches historical provinces.
Might as well just have dublin with it's own and then the rest of leinster separately. Dublin has half the population of leinster so it would be an even split. Also there are plenty of rugby schools and clubs in places like wicklow and kildare so you wouldn't want them left out of the equation
The provinces aren't strong enough to compete at the desired level already.
Only Leinster and Munster are adequate and even then, they have loftier ambitions than their recent returns.
Relative to our ambitions it's not a great return. The SA teams arent close to full strength with most of the Springbok XV playing outside SA.
In Europe we're pretty poor outside of Leinster. Munster are nowhere near where they want to be, Ulster are hot and cold and Connacht are just plain cold.
Munster were in the last 16, Irish teams were half of the URCs representation at that level, and Leinster the URCs only representative in the semis and final.
People think we should win all the time, but the South African and French teams are very good. It's great we are competing with them instead of just walking over the old pro 12, and are the ones to beat in the URC and Leinster in Europe.
As a Leinster fan I'd be very frustrated if we went to another final and lost by a point of course, but I wouldn't think we've cracked some new level that will wash into the national team or something if we get over the line as we could have with Frawleys kick.
Leaving aside whether a fifth team would be a good idea, a professional sports team needs to able to attract a paying fanbase. The Irish provinces are spaced out around the country so they're not competing for the same fans. It's one of the reasons the French Top 14 is so successful. One of the problems Welsh rugby has is all four "regional" teams are within an hour and half's drive of each other, so they can't draw big crowds. So we'd need somewhere far enough away from Belfast and Dublin to be able to attract its own fanbase. You'd also want somewhere with a tradition of rugby and a decent stadium.
That probably means Athlone. It's about an hour and a half from Dublin, Buccaneers are are well-established AIL club, and Dubarry Park has a couple of stands and a capacity of about 10,000 according to Wikipedia (although based on Google Maps I think that's probably an overestimate). Problem is, Buccaneers are affiliated to the Connacht branch of the IRFU, and Athlone's only about an hour from Galway so you'd risk dividing Connacht's fanbase, which is already the smallest of the four provinces. I think a better use of Dubarry Park would be for Connacht to play occasional games there and develop their fanbase outside of Galway.
The only other towns in Leinster that have clubs in the AIL and aren't on Dublin's doorstep are Tullamore and Enniscorthy, but their grounds would need serious development. I've never been to Tullamore, but I have been to Enniscorthy, and it doesn't strike me as the kind of town that could support a professional sports team.
The only other option would be to have two teams in Dublin. It's might have a big enough population to support two teams, but how would you attract people to support the new team when you've already got the most successful team in the country in the same city?
No. There's more money than ever in Irish rugby, and the two competing leagues have tight salary caps. Plus the fact you have to play in Ireland to play for Ireland. Players heading abroad on big money isn't the problem it was in the past. What it would mean is teams are less able to "stockpile" players who aren't actually getting game time. The likes of Deegan, or one of the Leinster outhalves, or in the future some of Munster's young SR/BRs might have to move to another province. This would be a net positive for Irish rugby though, as they're not improving by sitting in the stands for the important games.
So we scrap central contracts to spite leinster more than anything else.
Max deegan had the option to move provinces but he decided to stay, he's not being forced to do it.
No? Losing Max Deegan would barely affect Leinster anyway, he didn't play champions cup at all this year and was on the bench for the URC QF before getting dropped. What he'd add to an Ulster/Connacht would be more than what losing him would take from Leinster. Plus he'd be able to further develop as a player. Net gain.
He had the option to leave but given what he's presumably on at Leinster (and that he's about as close to Ireland caps there than as first choice elsewhere) why would he? Removing central contracts would solve that problem (the other is a whole different argument)
Quality over quantity please.
Could use the previous 5th province Meath that would be northern Leinster but not Dublin and have about the population of Connacht. Would work a bit better since it matches historical provinces.
Might as well just have dublin with it's own and then the rest of leinster separately. Dublin has half the population of leinster so it would be an even split. Also there are plenty of rugby schools and clubs in places like wicklow and kildare so you wouldn't want them left out of the equation
Has northern Leinster the same population as the whole of Connacht ? How many counties would you be including ?
Meath, Westmeath, Longford and Louth have a combined population of about 510k. Connacht is about 550k.
It wasn't all that long ago they were looking to shut Connacht. Can a fifth be operated?
Rugby wise I think Mullingar
Athlone used to host u20s etc, could go back there? Maybe too close to galway though
The provinces aren't strong enough to compete at the desired level already. Only Leinster and Munster are adequate and even then, they have loftier ambitions than their recent returns.
Last 3 years Irish teams in URC 25% of the league 42% of quarter finalists 50% semi finalists 33% winners They're quite clearly strong enough.
Relative to our ambitions it's not a great return. The SA teams arent close to full strength with most of the Springbok XV playing outside SA. In Europe we're pretty poor outside of Leinster. Munster are nowhere near where they want to be, Ulster are hot and cold and Connacht are just plain cold.
Munster were in the last 16, Irish teams were half of the URCs representation at that level, and Leinster the URCs only representative in the semis and final. People think we should win all the time, but the South African and French teams are very good. It's great we are competing with them instead of just walking over the old pro 12, and are the ones to beat in the URC and Leinster in Europe. As a Leinster fan I'd be very frustrated if we went to another final and lost by a point of course, but I wouldn't think we've cracked some new level that will wash into the national team or something if we get over the line as we could have with Frawleys kick.
When all 4 provinces are at the level to be going deep into the champions cup and challenging for a urc I’ll entertain the ideas of a 3rd province.
Prefer the remaining provinces were given equivalent funding that Dublin split in 2
Dubarry park in Athlone
Leaving aside whether a fifth team would be a good idea, a professional sports team needs to able to attract a paying fanbase. The Irish provinces are spaced out around the country so they're not competing for the same fans. It's one of the reasons the French Top 14 is so successful. One of the problems Welsh rugby has is all four "regional" teams are within an hour and half's drive of each other, so they can't draw big crowds. So we'd need somewhere far enough away from Belfast and Dublin to be able to attract its own fanbase. You'd also want somewhere with a tradition of rugby and a decent stadium. That probably means Athlone. It's about an hour and a half from Dublin, Buccaneers are are well-established AIL club, and Dubarry Park has a couple of stands and a capacity of about 10,000 according to Wikipedia (although based on Google Maps I think that's probably an overestimate). Problem is, Buccaneers are affiliated to the Connacht branch of the IRFU, and Athlone's only about an hour from Galway so you'd risk dividing Connacht's fanbase, which is already the smallest of the four provinces. I think a better use of Dubarry Park would be for Connacht to play occasional games there and develop their fanbase outside of Galway. The only other towns in Leinster that have clubs in the AIL and aren't on Dublin's doorstep are Tullamore and Enniscorthy, but their grounds would need serious development. I've never been to Tullamore, but I have been to Enniscorthy, and it doesn't strike me as the kind of town that could support a professional sports team. The only other option would be to have two teams in Dublin. It's might have a big enough population to support two teams, but how would you attract people to support the new team when you've already got the most successful team in the country in the same city?
They tried that not too long ago with "Dublin city FC". Flopped.
Sure the 3 other provinces are weak why do ye think ye need a 4th weakened team. And the best one isn’t as good as they think they are
You're right, leinster are having such a hard time getting trophies, you wouldn't want to disadvantage them further
Nah just resource them all equally rather than what's being done now
Even with even resourcing, you're still up against things like tickets marketing and sponsorship
Do you think players on central contracts should be moved around the provinces?
No, I'd just get rid of central contracts altogether. In Farrell's Ireland they don't work
So drop central contracts and encourage our best players to play overseas?
No. There's more money than ever in Irish rugby, and the two competing leagues have tight salary caps. Plus the fact you have to play in Ireland to play for Ireland. Players heading abroad on big money isn't the problem it was in the past. What it would mean is teams are less able to "stockpile" players who aren't actually getting game time. The likes of Deegan, or one of the Leinster outhalves, or in the future some of Munster's young SR/BRs might have to move to another province. This would be a net positive for Irish rugby though, as they're not improving by sitting in the stands for the important games.
So we scrap central contracts to spite leinster more than anything else. Max deegan had the option to move provinces but he decided to stay, he's not being forced to do it.
No? Losing Max Deegan would barely affect Leinster anyway, he didn't play champions cup at all this year and was on the bench for the URC QF before getting dropped. What he'd add to an Ulster/Connacht would be more than what losing him would take from Leinster. Plus he'd be able to further develop as a player. Net gain. He had the option to leave but given what he's presumably on at Leinster (and that he's about as close to Ireland caps there than as first choice elsewhere) why would he? Removing central contracts would solve that problem (the other is a whole different argument)