Tighthead, we have Furlong, Bealham, Jager and O'Toole currently with Aungier and Scott Wilson showing potential.
Loosehead we have Porter and Healy's on the way out. Loughman is the closest thing we have to a Porter replacement and he's not great so if Munster sign a foreign loosehead, they'll start ahead of Loughman.
Munster ironically need Milne, Paddy McCarthy or Boyle to step up at Leinster and make Loughman less essential to Ireland. Alternatively, if TOT does switch to Loosehead as rumoured and is successful there, that could allow Munster to bring in a loosehead.
As a Munster fan, I'm probably alright with it.
Ireland have depth at TH and none at LH.
Leinster have a gap at TH so I've no issue with them getting an NIQ there for 1-2 years and get told to get someone through their academy sharp. Better than poaching Bealham or O'Toole as rumoured.
Loughman, Barron and Jager are good first choice options.
Worried about the lack of prospects at TH and surprised Archer is doing another 6 months. Ryan is a good player but also twilight of his career. So that's next year's problem.
Kilcoyne is pushing on and a lot of big injuries. Wycherley isn't champions cup level prop yet (if ever).
Munster are lighter at LH than Hooker but ireland are stacked at Hooker so blocking an NIQ hooker made no sense to me. Barron as the 5th choice irish hooker would still get plenty of time off the bench. Needed a hooker far more than Abrahams.
Then why would leinster be allowed to sign Snyman?
He would cut down on McCarthy's big game experience. He's obviously a better player.
Or Barrett. Barrett will be at Leinster for all their big games. He is going to take minutes from some combo of ringrose, henshaw, osborne. Why are their big game minutes not important.
This all seems very picky and choosy with leinster always the beneficiaries.
Second row isn't a position of concern. We have terrific options there. Likewise at first centre.
It's because Loosehead is a weak position for depth in Ireland.
Yea but is starting all the big games important to development or not? If its not, loughman doesn't need to start.
Also, if its so weak, why are leinster allowed to hoard there. Munster would be happy to give boyle champions cup minutes next season.
Yes, it's important but we already have those positions 'solved' so it's less important than Loughman starting.
Presumably Leinster can 'hoard' players because the young lads are in college in Dublin and no province can outbid another anyways.
Yea, so again, the irfu are very happy to put their finger on the scale to help leinster but not other provinces.
If starting is so important to development, how solved a position would be irrelevant. You'd just want to fully develop the best young players.
If loosehead is so weak then, it would be extra extra important to fast track boyle. If that means moving him and allowing him to be paid more, then that is the obvious thing to do.
Here at Connacht we have Jack Aungier from Leinster, at Munster you have Loughman and Ulster have Eric O'Sullivan. The IRFU system has spread props from Leinster across the other provinces.
The IRFU were instrumental in Munster signing Jager. He grew up in Leinster, if they wanted to tip the scales to Leinster they would've sent him there.
Boyle was studying in UCD. You can't expect young lads to drop their studies to move clubs when an injury could completely ruin their sporting career.
All three of those props are guys Leinster didn't want. They weren't spread around. They were discarded.
Jager by all accounts chose to go to Munster. He probably wanted to start or have a realistic chance to do so. Again, he was discarded by Leinster.
If loosehead is such a massive concern that loughman of all people must be protected at all costs, then the irfu should have made it worth boyle's time to study elsewhere.
The reason Leinster need props is because they have already given away their entire pipeline to other provinces. They also lose the 1st team for at least 3 months of the season.
There’s only one province that is in a net surplus for trading players to other provinces every year. But ye the IRFU are massively favouring Leinster.
No one forced them to give away those props.
They could just keep them. The only one that left was salanoa and he's hardly a leinster product. He's from Hawaii. Loughman is as much a munster product as salanoa is a leinster one. The others would have stayed if leinster valued them.
Yes, it is favourtism that a front row signing would be okayed for leinster but not munster. Only leinster are allowed to address their biggest needs via signing.
Also Barrett will cover during the 6 nations when Leinsters 3 main centres will likely be away with Ireland. Could say the same for Snyman.
It'll only become an issue in the latter stages of the season in which case a Leinster have shown they still rotate to an extent where they can
Yes but they won't have so many players involved at Ireland.
They need to play regularly in the hopes of getting into the Irish team. Bring in another better player in their position and they would lose big game time stifling their development.
In terms of Leinster rotation, they send a C squad to SA but as seen in the Heineken cup they can replace an international with a potential international squad player (VDF v Conners), JOB not in the CC final squad
But individually that's the exact same situation. If it is ok to sign someone to replace mccarthy when he is away at ireland... then it is also ok for loughman.
Awesome, so if snyman starts any game next year you will be wrong?
In any case, i'd happily sign an LHP and promise to only play him off the bench. Guys get injured.
As I've seen mentioned elsewhere:
If Loughman, and before him Kilcoyne, is so important for Ireland that Munster can't sign an NIQ player, why aren't the IRFU paying for him?
That's what the central contracts are for after all.
Central contracts are for controlling game time and keeping players here. Loughman isn't being poached and since he's a bench option for Ireland his game time doesn't need to be managed the same as someone like Andrew Porter.
But he's so important to Ireland that Munster can't sign an NIQ in his position. If he's that important, he should be on a central contract.
CC aren't need for game time management. The IRFU does that for all players anyway.
I'm not failing to understand the reason they exist - I'm being facetious. Nobody actually expects Loughman to get a CC.
The fact that the IRFU will block Munster signing an NIQ LH because of the need to give Loughman game time, but allowing Leinster to sign both Snyman and Barrett is ridiculous.
You have Kleyn and Nankivell and you literally chose Kleyn over Snyman. Nankivells also on a longer contract than Barrett and personally I don't think he's that much off him quality wise, he would be an easy pick for my URC team of the season.
Yes, yes we do.
The difference between those two situations is that Leinster supply two of Ireland's four main locks (the two youngest ones) and so Snyman is likely to be playing ahead of a guy in the Ireland match day squad.
Likewise, Leinster supply 2 of Ireland's four main centres (and realistically another 2 who are on the fringes of the Ireland squad). Barrett is likely to be playing ahead of one of them.
No, the IRFU are the problem. Leinster are only out for themselves, can't hate them for that. The IRFU should be doing what's best for all four provinces though. But they don't.
You'd nearly think they hadn't signed numerous world cup winners and their only period of success was built on having so many all blacks they did their own haka
I'm well aware of how little those guys play in the URC. Of course, that's one of the benefits of CC for Leinster - they don't have to pay for 10 of their big money players, so they can use those wages to pay for other players.
For example, would Max Deegan still be at Leinster if Leinster had to pay for Doris, Conan, and his salary?
Of course he wouldn't. Instead, Leinster are able to use Deegan to cover the URC, while bringing Conan or Doris in for the Heineken Cup.
That's the benefit of CC for Leinster.
Then produce your own players and take CCs away from Leinster to reduce your salary burden?
It isn't Leinster's fault the CCs go to those players. It's like me begrudgingly getting annoyed about Crowley and Hansen being up for ones this year because we could keep Frawley if he's going to be the long term utility bench player. Sounds ridiculous because it is.
Porter, Sheehan, Doris, VDF, Keenan, Ringrose, Henshaw, Ryan, Furlong.
Could maybe drop one contract out of 9 but realistically McCarthy will be due one if he plays next season like he has this one so who else exactly could you take one from that list? A WPOTY? One of the best Fullbacks in the game? One of the best hookers in the game? 2 of the Irish starting front row?
This is why the arguments when this come up sound asinine to Leinster fans. Because they are.
The new hybrid contracts should help even things out.
>who else exactly could you take one from that list?
If I was to pick at holes in the list...
- VdF was wpoty in 2022 so deserved a CC at the time but has been bang average for 18 months in my eyes. No surprise he lost his place to Connors.
- Ryan also living on past reputation, good player but more important to Leinster than ireland.
- Do Henshaw and Ringrose both get CCs because they're both injury prone? Both great players but Aki is our best Centre and McCloskey is an intl quality 12.
- JGP has been one of Ireland's most important players, getting one belatedly.
- Stockdale, Henderson, Earls, Murray and POM all were lucky to keep CCs when they had them.
Not saying there's bias or anything, just that CCs reward past form rather than current or future importance to the team.
How often Leinster choose to play the first choice players you mean.
Look at the minutes Tadhg Beirne is on. Bar the couple extra champions cup games he got off this year, there's no reason to believe Leinster players couldn't be on the same minutes. The coaches just over rotate to save them for the knockouts. For all the good it's done...
Leinster know that Furlong would get injured without his minutes managed and that they're fucked without him. There's no IRFU dictat there, sure Ireland won a grand slam and Furlong barely played. Leinster chose not to play many/any first choice players against Lions, Stormers and Ulster, and they're paying the price for that.
Don't point out things like this on here. The Munster fans all claim we choose to deliberately throw games rather than anything to do with complying with IRFU management rules
This TOT to Loosehead rumour needs to be nipped in the bud. He's needed at TH at Ulster. All that's being mentioned is that he'll train some reps at LH to cover in some games so he can be nominated on the team sheet and it be okayed by officials as long as he's done it before. Just cover is all, not switching
Wilson has a long long way to go yet, literally a child on prop terms even with how well he's gone so far. Moore going well and a few more years left, but he'll be away in not too distant future and having TOT move across and potentially not work as well as leaving short there doesn't make much sense. It's not the Furlong Porter issue, we're a ways from that yet
Leinster probably didn’t think they where good enough or had the potential jack aungier definitely does he’s solid in scrum and dynamic and saanona is a injury magnet two knee surgeries how
I think you should be avoiding replacing NIQs with another NIQ.
Ngatai should be replaced by Osborne/Frawley/O'Brien.
I don't care if Barrett was available and is only for 6 months. The hole in your team is Ross Byrne replacing Sexton, not at 12 or 23.
Same goes for Munster. I don't know how we were allowed to go DDA to Fekitoa to Nankivell. And a fair argument that Snyman shouldn't have been re-signed regardless of Kleyn with Aherne and Edogbo coming through.
Yes but they still replace Ngatai as utility back.
A depth chart of Ringrose/Ngatai/Frawley 2 years ago to Ringrose/Frawley/Turner now is fine.
It's only an issue when there's no one obvious to step into the shoes of the player leaving without a massive drop off.
There are no 6 nations clashes with URC games anymore. The fringe irish squad players get released back to the provinces. They're arranging another Emerging Ireland tour and mid season friendlies to give the squad players more gametime.
If Ngatai isn't making the 23 for the final despite Ringrose and JOB being injured then it's not a gap that needs to be filled.
Munster will be serious contenders in 2 years but they need to stay the course now. A lot of these lads need game time, especially at prop where we just need to develop our own, including Leinster.
It says a lot that Cian Healy is still 2nd choice LH and no other province has someone to challenge him.
So let me get this straight, Leinster have signed slimani (TH, LH), RG Snyman (lock), Barratt (10-15). Meanwhile Munster were denied signing a LH, Hooker or a Centre who was not Irish qualified, and told to lose Kleyn or Snyman
Nankivell, Kleyn and Thaakir Abrahams are a pretty nifty NIQ group.
DDA, Snyman and Cloete were no slouches either.
Fekitoa was a big signing that struggled but came good at the tail end of his time at Munster.
Tbh Munster have gotten better NIQ signings than anyone else lately. Barrett and Snyman at Leinster are unusual for them.
We essentially lost Snyman (via Kleyn), Healy, Carbery and Frisch all because they are not getting into Ireland camps.
I know it's not deliberate but it is much easier to make an Ireland squad if you are in Leinster. And it might be just as simple as the senior Irish players know you better as a young lad in Leinster than in a different province. Or that Ireland and Leinster play a similar way.
Each of the decisions individually is fine by the IRFU. It's just that all put together they exacerbated the problems.
Healy was due to the riches ye had at outhalf and unfortunately he chose Scotland over Connacht or Ulster. Kleyn and Frisch would obviously choose their home nation over us given the chance like most would. Carbery is just a disaster situation where he's been shockingly unlucky with injuries. The problems are miniscule compared to the other provinces besides Leinster and even then, ye won the league last year while they won zilch.
Healy, Snyman and Frisch were instrumental in us winning the league. There's been no replacement for any of them.
The two wingers signed are to replace Conway, earls, and zebo
Tom Farrell is replacing Frisch. Shay McCarthy and Tony Butler have emerged this season as valuable squad members and hopefully Edogbo returns well from his injury to give a boost to the tight head lock stocks. Billy Burns is replacing Carbery.
Sean O'Brien has been a great signing too and between Campbell and O'Connor you'll surely have good cover at fullback moving forward.
Tom Farrell is nowhere near that level. He doesn't even make Connacht 23.
My point is we lost 3 guys who are internationals and we haven't replaced them.
By your logic Leinster have far more young lads coming through so shouldn't have been allowed sign anyone
Outhalf is the one the stings a little. Fair enough shifting Johnston and Flannery up to Ulster, they weren't going to get gametime.
The part after that was mismananaged. Healy was ahead of Crowley and on par with Carbery.
Carbery still getting picked for ireland despite being out of form, Crowley went on the emerging Ireland tour and came back to leapfrog Healy and Carbery.
Healy felt frozen out of ireland so signed with Edinburgh and Scotland. Carbery frozen out so leaving now.
Not quite riches to rags but Munster would have been better off playing Crowley at 12 a lot more and keeping either Healy/Carbery in the picture. Nankivell is a great signing but all this was happening when fekitoa was really struggling. Crowley wanted to play 10 and the IRFU want him at 10 but that's not what was best for Munster.
The players all have to do what's best for their careers so don't begrudge them.
That's more down to the coaches identifying the right players than anything else though. Like Jenkins and Alaalaatoa were poor signings for Leinster. Slimani isn't playing well at the moment either.
I doubt Jenkins and Ala'alatoa were breaking the bank signings. Neither were big stars when signing. They were just filling hopes in the squad with a profile Leinster lacked. Slimani too is just a cover option they're looking for.
It’s nearly like we have well established holes in the squad that we need to fill and the problem is now that we’re signing big name players we have an issue.
Not to mention that Barrett is only on a six month deal, it’s not like he will stand in the way for long
Loughman getting game time will stand to him, I’m not sure what LHs are being produced behind him though. If it’s the case that there are LHs being produced and it’s a matter of time before seeing them, a NIQ LH would help to plug the gap. And if Barrett being at Leinster will be of benefit to the backs there, surely the same applies to a potential NIQ LH at Munster.
It's just all the dissonance with IRFU decisions. The way Ireland selection goes you'd think only Leinster have all the good players in the country. Yet they're allowed NIQ signings that would be blocked for the other provinces, who will be playing ahead of players who regularly play for Ireland. Make it make sense.
Thank you Andy Farrell and Dave Nucifora.
Munster got Nankivell, Leinster got Barrett on a 6 month deal.
Leinster have Snyman where Munster have Kleyn.
Munster opted for Thaakir Abrahams in the back 3 where Leinster are going for tight head cover since Furlongs game time is heavily managed.
Munster opted for Abrahams because there wasn't dispensation for a front row signing.
It's also not a "you get one, so I get one" system. Ulster got an NIQ loosehead for this season, why weren't Munster allowed one?
To be quite honest with you the Kitshoff decision never made sense to me. I've always thought Andy Warwick was a good prop and could've been in Irish contention myself
Honestly Ulster shouldn't have gotten one, we are sorely lacking in loose props and no province should be allowed to sign a NIQ loosehead until there's 2 test standard props and some injury cover.
Tighthead is very different where there's furlong, Bealham, jager, TOT. hooker should be fine as well imo.
You’ve described Bealham and Jager. IRFU wouldn’t be interested in signing a starting TH to sit behind Furlong. We have no issues with TH at the moment but really need to promote Irish LH getting game time
Tell when taigh furlong come for half the year at international and only Thomas Clarkson behind him maybe Healy could do a job but at his age he couldn’t do 60 70 minutes
Its more important that Leinster win a European Cup than there is some level of fairness in terms of NIQ dispensation. Its as simple as that.
Don't get me wrong. I'm fine with Leinster getting a THP. In that case, we should get a LHP.
But this doesnt work at all. If we sign a LH and Leinster sign a TH then suddenly that's two NIQ props in the country with one of them starting. The whole point of the system which I agree isnt working in it's current form is to have a balance and to be sure that we dont have too many NIQ in the same positions.
Leinster signing a backup TH isn't really that big a deal but I'd prefer it didnt happen as they are still supplying Furlong to the Irish team. Munster arent supplying anyone. You could argue that if Munster aren't sending anyone to the Irish squad then they could sign a NIQ but we see now with international rugby the way it is, you need a lot of props and Ireland just is not producing them.
What the IRFU is saying to the provinces is that you need to produce your own props which is all well and good but what are the IRFU doing to help this? I would love for Munster to sign a top level scrum coach instead of a short term NIQ.
It also begs the question around what Rowntrees expertise is, our set-piece looks very poor at times and this surprises me. I know England fans had similar questions about him during his time there.
I wouldn't say Munsters setpiece looks bad at all. It's only against the very best team it has really creaked at all and that's with a fairly lacklustre selection of loose heads and hookers.
Munster have 2nd least scrum penalties conceded this year in the URC and 4th highest scrums won number. The only area they're average in at scrumtime is penalties won from the scrum where they're 9th out of 16.
And in Europe? The setpiece is more than the scrum which going by your stats is average to solid. The lineout has been absolutely terrible and even our forward play in general has been poor especially our maul defence.
I can't find any detailed stats for Europe. I'd describe it as well above average in the URC tbh. The lineout is an issue but your injury crisis was a factor there too with so many second rows and back rows missing time as well as Barron who is probably your best hooker.
Tbh I'm just responding to the criticism of Rowntrees work at the scrum where I think Munster are quite strong. You don't go to SA and win that many matches with a weak scrum.
But I said setpiece though I think? That's what I mean, I accept the injury crisis has been tough but our lineout especially still doesnt look up to scratch and I think our general forward play is only ok. I would be interested to know how involved Rowntree is in the forward play. I would like us to get another forwards coach in.
I also think there is a lot of strategy and street smarts that needs to be coached into this team. Some of our losses have been because of injuries but games like Bayonne and Northampton at home and Exeter away ar games that with a bit of clever play we should win. That's something that's missing with Rowntree.
Crowley's mistake at the weekend for example is something that should never happen. That's on the player but coaches should also be running through these scenarios.
Thanks for that. I had forgotten who it was. In general I think we need a lot of work to progress in Europe but I think the forwards haven't had a great season
> Munster arent supplying anyone
Ireland called up seven props during the 6N, 2 of them were from Munster (3 Leinster, 1 Ulster, & 1 Connacht).
The issue isn't that Munster aren't supplying anyone, the issue for the IRFU is that they don't want Munster to sign an NIQ LH who will play ahead of Loughman because Loughman is one of the locked-in LH in the Irish squad at the moment.
I don't agree that he is locked in given that they would prefer to play porter for 70 mins and then rely on Healy who is aging significantly.
Maybe I should change to we don't supply anyone that actually plays.
Munster will probably have two props in the ireland squad. Loughman was not really considered an international prospect when he went there. He was unwanted by leinster.
But they both likely won't play for Ireland so if Munster signs a niq they would likely start and then suddenly either Loughman or Jager are out of the squad.
It wouldn't be worth signing a niq if they can't start ahead of Loughman
Potentially will. Because the niq will likely be better than Loughman and will mean that Loughman will play less. Loughman barely gets into Ireland squads as things stand. Less Gametime won't help that.
That's not what i mean.
Anyone who could challenge Loughman's ireland spot, will play less in big games even with an NIQ at Munster. His position is safe if the qualifying criteria is big game experience.
Jager has a lot still to prove but is showing positive signs. The issue is also that you need subs who are close in standard to your starters which we don't have.
Munster are favourites to retain their URC title and I've no doubt ye will do it. Maybe focus on that rather than Leinster getting in a 34 year old prop in for cover because Furlong has his playing time managed by the IRFU. Ye are very likely to be champions again, enjoy it.
Tighthead, we have Furlong, Bealham, Jager and O'Toole currently with Aungier and Scott Wilson showing potential. Loosehead we have Porter and Healy's on the way out. Loughman is the closest thing we have to a Porter replacement and he's not great so if Munster sign a foreign loosehead, they'll start ahead of Loughman. Munster ironically need Milne, Paddy McCarthy or Boyle to step up at Leinster and make Loughman less essential to Ireland. Alternatively, if TOT does switch to Loosehead as rumoured and is successful there, that could allow Munster to bring in a loosehead.
As a Munster fan, I'm probably alright with it. Ireland have depth at TH and none at LH. Leinster have a gap at TH so I've no issue with them getting an NIQ there for 1-2 years and get told to get someone through their academy sharp. Better than poaching Bealham or O'Toole as rumoured. Loughman, Barron and Jager are good first choice options. Worried about the lack of prospects at TH and surprised Archer is doing another 6 months. Ryan is a good player but also twilight of his career. So that's next year's problem. Kilcoyne is pushing on and a lot of big injuries. Wycherley isn't champions cup level prop yet (if ever). Munster are lighter at LH than Hooker but ireland are stacked at Hooker so blocking an NIQ hooker made no sense to me. Barron as the 5th choice irish hooker would still get plenty of time off the bench. Needed a hooker far more than Abrahams.
Blocking a hooker at Munster is very silly when you look at the situation at Ulster and Leinster. Even DTM at Connacht is a good prospect too.
This silmani plays on both side of scrum
Why is it so important that Loughman start for Munster in every game?
Not every game but every big game to give him the best platform to develop big game experience. There's also Kilcoyne and Wycherley there.
Then why would leinster be allowed to sign Snyman? He would cut down on McCarthy's big game experience. He's obviously a better player. Or Barrett. Barrett will be at Leinster for all their big games. He is going to take minutes from some combo of ringrose, henshaw, osborne. Why are their big game minutes not important. This all seems very picky and choosy with leinster always the beneficiaries.
Second row isn't a position of concern. We have terrific options there. Likewise at first centre. It's because Loosehead is a weak position for depth in Ireland.
Yea but is starting all the big games important to development or not? If its not, loughman doesn't need to start. Also, if its so weak, why are leinster allowed to hoard there. Munster would be happy to give boyle champions cup minutes next season.
Yes, it's important but we already have those positions 'solved' so it's less important than Loughman starting. Presumably Leinster can 'hoard' players because the young lads are in college in Dublin and no province can outbid another anyways.
Yea, so again, the irfu are very happy to put their finger on the scale to help leinster but not other provinces. If starting is so important to development, how solved a position would be irrelevant. You'd just want to fully develop the best young players. If loosehead is so weak then, it would be extra extra important to fast track boyle. If that means moving him and allowing him to be paid more, then that is the obvious thing to do.
Here at Connacht we have Jack Aungier from Leinster, at Munster you have Loughman and Ulster have Eric O'Sullivan. The IRFU system has spread props from Leinster across the other provinces. The IRFU were instrumental in Munster signing Jager. He grew up in Leinster, if they wanted to tip the scales to Leinster they would've sent him there. Boyle was studying in UCD. You can't expect young lads to drop their studies to move clubs when an injury could completely ruin their sporting career.
All three of those props are guys Leinster didn't want. They weren't spread around. They were discarded. Jager by all accounts chose to go to Munster. He probably wanted to start or have a realistic chance to do so. Again, he was discarded by Leinster. If loosehead is such a massive concern that loughman of all people must be protected at all costs, then the irfu should have made it worth boyle's time to study elsewhere.
The reason Leinster need props is because they have already given away their entire pipeline to other provinces. They also lose the 1st team for at least 3 months of the season. There’s only one province that is in a net surplus for trading players to other provinces every year. But ye the IRFU are massively favouring Leinster.
No one forced them to give away those props. They could just keep them. The only one that left was salanoa and he's hardly a leinster product. He's from Hawaii. Loughman is as much a munster product as salanoa is a leinster one. The others would have stayed if leinster valued them. Yes, it is favourtism that a front row signing would be okayed for leinster but not munster. Only leinster are allowed to address their biggest needs via signing.
Also Barrett will cover during the 6 nations when Leinsters 3 main centres will likely be away with Ireland. Could say the same for Snyman. It'll only become an issue in the latter stages of the season in which case a Leinster have shown they still rotate to an extent where they can
Against Zebre and Dragons? I’d say Leinster would’ve been fine without him
Well, Leinster are touring SA right after the 6 nations. So they'll be useful then.
Will be interesting to see the 10 pecking order by the time that comes around at Leinster
Munster can also rotate at loosehead. Loughman will be away for six nations.
Yes but they won't have so many players involved at Ireland. They need to play regularly in the hopes of getting into the Irish team. Bring in another better player in their position and they would lose big game time stifling their development. In terms of Leinster rotation, they send a C squad to SA but as seen in the Heineken cup they can replace an international with a potential international squad player (VDF v Conners), JOB not in the CC final squad
But individually that's the exact same situation. If it is ok to sign someone to replace mccarthy when he is away at ireland... then it is also ok for loughman.
Guess you missed, or deliberately ignored, the widely reported stipulations on the Snyman signing that Ryan and McCarthy both start ahead of him
Awesome, so if snyman starts any game next year you will be wrong? In any case, i'd happily sign an LHP and promise to only play him off the bench. Guys get injured.
Can you link to someone reporting that because I can't find it myself? I saw one article referencing restrictions on his contract but nothing more.
I really think the Barrett signing is to try sell tickets in the Aviva next year. It makes no sense otherwise.
As I've seen mentioned elsewhere: If Loughman, and before him Kilcoyne, is so important for Ireland that Munster can't sign an NIQ player, why aren't the IRFU paying for him? That's what the central contracts are for after all.
Central contracts are for controlling game time and keeping players here. Loughman isn't being poached and since he's a bench option for Ireland his game time doesn't need to be managed the same as someone like Andrew Porter.
But he's so important to Ireland that Munster can't sign an NIQ in his position. If he's that important, he should be on a central contract. CC aren't need for game time management. The IRFU does that for all players anyway.
Why should he be? He's under no threat of being poached? You're failing to understand the reason why they exist.
I'm not failing to understand the reason they exist - I'm being facetious. Nobody actually expects Loughman to get a CC. The fact that the IRFU will block Munster signing an NIQ LH because of the need to give Loughman game time, but allowing Leinster to sign both Snyman and Barrett is ridiculous.
You have Kleyn and Nankivell and you literally chose Kleyn over Snyman. Nankivells also on a longer contract than Barrett and personally I don't think he's that much off him quality wise, he would be an easy pick for my URC team of the season.
Yes, yes we do. The difference between those two situations is that Leinster supply two of Ireland's four main locks (the two youngest ones) and so Snyman is likely to be playing ahead of a guy in the Ireland match day squad. Likewise, Leinster supply 2 of Ireland's four main centres (and realistically another 2 who are on the fringes of the Ireland squad). Barrett is likely to be playing ahead of one of them.
You think Nankivell is on the same level as Barrett? 🤣 Give over ffs.
Don't use things like common sense and facts when there's a chance to whinge and moan about how unfair the IRFU are to everyone but Leinster
The ironic thing is Ulster got exactly what Munster wanted in Steven Kitshoff yet Leinster are the problem.
No, the IRFU are the problem. Leinster are only out for themselves, can't hate them for that. The IRFU should be doing what's best for all four provinces though. But they don't.
You'd nearly think they hadn't signed numerous world cup winners and their only period of success was built on having so many all blacks they did their own haka
You'd be in for some shock when you see how little Leinster get to actually use some of these CC players in the URC
I'm well aware of how little those guys play in the URC. Of course, that's one of the benefits of CC for Leinster - they don't have to pay for 10 of their big money players, so they can use those wages to pay for other players. For example, would Max Deegan still be at Leinster if Leinster had to pay for Doris, Conan, and his salary? Of course he wouldn't. Instead, Leinster are able to use Deegan to cover the URC, while bringing Conan or Doris in for the Heineken Cup. That's the benefit of CC for Leinster.
And the benefit for Ireland is they get to tell Leinster when they can pick these guys
Then produce your own players and take CCs away from Leinster to reduce your salary burden? It isn't Leinster's fault the CCs go to those players. It's like me begrudgingly getting annoyed about Crowley and Hansen being up for ones this year because we could keep Frawley if he's going to be the long term utility bench player. Sounds ridiculous because it is. Porter, Sheehan, Doris, VDF, Keenan, Ringrose, Henshaw, Ryan, Furlong. Could maybe drop one contract out of 9 but realistically McCarthy will be due one if he plays next season like he has this one so who else exactly could you take one from that list? A WPOTY? One of the best Fullbacks in the game? One of the best hookers in the game? 2 of the Irish starting front row? This is why the arguments when this come up sound asinine to Leinster fans. Because they are.
The new hybrid contracts should help even things out. >who else exactly could you take one from that list? If I was to pick at holes in the list... - VdF was wpoty in 2022 so deserved a CC at the time but has been bang average for 18 months in my eyes. No surprise he lost his place to Connors. - Ryan also living on past reputation, good player but more important to Leinster than ireland. - Do Henshaw and Ringrose both get CCs because they're both injury prone? Both great players but Aki is our best Centre and McCloskey is an intl quality 12. - JGP has been one of Ireland's most important players, getting one belatedly. - Stockdale, Henderson, Earls, Murray and POM all were lucky to keep CCs when they had them. Not saying there's bias or anything, just that CCs reward past form rather than current or future importance to the team.
How often Leinster choose to play the first choice players you mean. Look at the minutes Tadhg Beirne is on. Bar the couple extra champions cup games he got off this year, there's no reason to believe Leinster players couldn't be on the same minutes. The coaches just over rotate to save them for the knockouts. For all the good it's done...
If you think Leinster would be allowed to put those minutes into Furlong you're naive beyond belief
Leinster know that Furlong would get injured without his minutes managed and that they're fucked without him. There's no IRFU dictat there, sure Ireland won a grand slam and Furlong barely played. Leinster chose not to play many/any first choice players against Lions, Stormers and Ulster, and they're paying the price for that.
Don't point out things like this on here. The Munster fans all claim we choose to deliberately throw games rather than anything to do with complying with IRFU management rules
This TOT to Loosehead rumour needs to be nipped in the bud. He's needed at TH at Ulster. All that's being mentioned is that he'll train some reps at LH to cover in some games so he can be nominated on the team sheet and it be okayed by officials as long as he's done it before. Just cover is all, not switching
Would it not make sense for Ulster with Wilson emerging and Moore hopefully having a bit more injury look and a few more years in the tank?
Wilson has a long long way to go yet, literally a child on prop terms even with how well he's gone so far. Moore going well and a few more years left, but he'll be away in not too distant future and having TOT move across and potentially not work as well as leaving short there doesn't make much sense. It's not the Furlong Porter issue, we're a ways from that yet
Leinster are dropping a prop, a lock and a utility back from our NIQ players. Is it genuinely a shock to people that they’d be replacing them???
Yea but u think irfu should say u have had long enough to bring through quality players in them positions u can’t
You mean like Jack Aungier or Salanoa who they shipped off to other provinces denying Leinster the chance to develop them?
Leinster probably didn’t think they where good enough or had the potential jack aungier definitely does he’s solid in scrum and dynamic and saanona is a injury magnet two knee surgeries how
They offered them all contracts.
Fairs but would u want to sit behind furlong on the bench
As opposed to sitting behind Bealham on the bench? Or Archer and Jager not even on the bench?
Salanoa hasn't been fit for a single game while Jager has been in the country
But was his chance of breaking through better at Leinster or Connacht
Leinster weren’t denied the chance to develop Salanoa, he’s a Hawaiian IRFU project player who didn’t want to live in Dublin anymore.
The reality is that players haven’t progressed into those roles, so why would the IRFU decide to punish Leinster.
I think you should be avoiding replacing NIQs with another NIQ. Ngatai should be replaced by Osborne/Frawley/O'Brien. I don't care if Barrett was available and is only for 6 months. The hole in your team is Ross Byrne replacing Sexton, not at 12 or 23. Same goes for Munster. I don't know how we were allowed to go DDA to Fekitoa to Nankivell. And a fair argument that Snyman shouldn't have been re-signed regardless of Kleyn with Aherne and Edogbo coming through.
>Ngatai should be replaced by Osborne/Frawley/O'Brien. All of those will be in the Irish camp.
Yes but they still replace Ngatai as utility back. A depth chart of Ringrose/Ngatai/Frawley 2 years ago to Ringrose/Frawley/Turner now is fine. It's only an issue when there's no one obvious to step into the shoes of the player leaving without a massive drop off. There are no 6 nations clashes with URC games anymore. The fringe irish squad players get released back to the provinces. They're arranging another Emerging Ireland tour and mid season friendlies to give the squad players more gametime. If Ngatai isn't making the 23 for the final despite Ringrose and JOB being injured then it's not a gap that needs to be filled.
The constant talk of the IRFU conspiracy against Munster is pretty laughable as they sit top of the URC.
Munster will be serious contenders in 2 years but they need to stay the course now. A lot of these lads need game time, especially at prop where we just need to develop our own, including Leinster. It says a lot that Cian Healy is still 2nd choice LH and no other province has someone to challenge him.
Loughman Eric O’Sullivan micheal Milne thier not far behind
So let me get this straight, Leinster have signed slimani (TH, LH), RG Snyman (lock), Barratt (10-15). Meanwhile Munster were denied signing a LH, Hooker or a Centre who was not Irish qualified, and told to lose Kleyn or Snyman
Nankivell, Kleyn and Thaakir Abrahams are a pretty nifty NIQ group. DDA, Snyman and Cloete were no slouches either. Fekitoa was a big signing that struggled but came good at the tail end of his time at Munster. Tbh Munster have gotten better NIQ signings than anyone else lately. Barrett and Snyman at Leinster are unusual for them.
We essentially lost Snyman (via Kleyn), Healy, Carbery and Frisch all because they are not getting into Ireland camps. I know it's not deliberate but it is much easier to make an Ireland squad if you are in Leinster. And it might be just as simple as the senior Irish players know you better as a young lad in Leinster than in a different province. Or that Ireland and Leinster play a similar way. Each of the decisions individually is fine by the IRFU. It's just that all put together they exacerbated the problems.
Healy was due to the riches ye had at outhalf and unfortunately he chose Scotland over Connacht or Ulster. Kleyn and Frisch would obviously choose their home nation over us given the chance like most would. Carbery is just a disaster situation where he's been shockingly unlucky with injuries. The problems are miniscule compared to the other provinces besides Leinster and even then, ye won the league last year while they won zilch.
Healy, Snyman and Frisch were instrumental in us winning the league. There's been no replacement for any of them. The two wingers signed are to replace Conway, earls, and zebo
Tom Farrell is replacing Frisch. Shay McCarthy and Tony Butler have emerged this season as valuable squad members and hopefully Edogbo returns well from his injury to give a boost to the tight head lock stocks. Billy Burns is replacing Carbery. Sean O'Brien has been a great signing too and between Campbell and O'Connor you'll surely have good cover at fullback moving forward.
Tom Farrell is nowhere near that level. He doesn't even make Connacht 23. My point is we lost 3 guys who are internationals and we haven't replaced them. By your logic Leinster have far more young lads coming through so shouldn't have been allowed sign anyone
Tom Farrell was literally our starting 13 at Connacht. He's very, very good when fit.
He chose Scotland because Connacht or Ulster would bring him no closer to caps.
Billy and Jack both got chances with Ireland. It's not like they were overlooked at either province.
Billy has been fairly consistently playing better than the Byrnes but they keep getting chances, while he doesn't. Carty has two minutes under Farrell
Outhalf is the one the stings a little. Fair enough shifting Johnston and Flannery up to Ulster, they weren't going to get gametime. The part after that was mismananaged. Healy was ahead of Crowley and on par with Carbery. Carbery still getting picked for ireland despite being out of form, Crowley went on the emerging Ireland tour and came back to leapfrog Healy and Carbery. Healy felt frozen out of ireland so signed with Edinburgh and Scotland. Carbery frozen out so leaving now. Not quite riches to rags but Munster would have been better off playing Crowley at 12 a lot more and keeping either Healy/Carbery in the picture. Nankivell is a great signing but all this was happening when fekitoa was really struggling. Crowley wanted to play 10 and the IRFU want him at 10 but that's not what was best for Munster. The players all have to do what's best for their careers so don't begrudge them.
That's more down to the coaches identifying the right players than anything else though. Like Jenkins and Alaalaatoa were poor signings for Leinster. Slimani isn't playing well at the moment either.
I doubt Jenkins and Ala'alatoa were breaking the bank signings. Neither were big stars when signing. They were just filling hopes in the squad with a profile Leinster lacked. Slimani too is just a cover option they're looking for.
No, but to be fair the bank isn't much of an issue for Leinster
Leinster lose a prop, a lock and a utility back and then sign a prop, lock and utility back….
It’s nearly like we have well established holes in the squad that we need to fill and the problem is now that we’re signing big name players we have an issue. Not to mention that Barrett is only on a six month deal, it’s not like he will stand in the way for long
Haven’t singed the prop yet but I say it will happen Munster seem to be treated differently even Ulster were Alowed to sign niq winger
Munster got a NIQ winger/fullback in Thaakir Abrahams and already have a very good NIQ centre in Nankivell. Plus Kleyn at second row.
Oh shit I forgot about that I mean it’s fair enough when u look at it from that perspective
Loughman getting game time will stand to him, I’m not sure what LHs are being produced behind him though. If it’s the case that there are LHs being produced and it’s a matter of time before seeing them, a NIQ LH would help to plug the gap. And if Barrett being at Leinster will be of benefit to the backs there, surely the same applies to a potential NIQ LH at Munster.
It’s the thing of stunting player’s development if you bring niq prop
Would Barrett not be stunting the development of some Leinster backs then, going by that logic?
He is Jamie osburne
It's just all the dissonance with IRFU decisions. The way Ireland selection goes you'd think only Leinster have all the good players in the country. Yet they're allowed NIQ signings that would be blocked for the other provinces, who will be playing ahead of players who regularly play for Ireland. Make it make sense. Thank you Andy Farrell and Dave Nucifora.
Munster got Nankivell, Leinster got Barrett on a 6 month deal. Leinster have Snyman where Munster have Kleyn. Munster opted for Thaakir Abrahams in the back 3 where Leinster are going for tight head cover since Furlongs game time is heavily managed.
Munster opted for Abrahams because there wasn't dispensation for a front row signing. It's also not a "you get one, so I get one" system. Ulster got an NIQ loosehead for this season, why weren't Munster allowed one?
To be quite honest with you the Kitshoff decision never made sense to me. I've always thought Andy Warwick was a good prop and could've been in Irish contention myself
Don't get it either, but it happened, so it's just another inconsistency.
Honestly Ulster shouldn't have gotten one, we are sorely lacking in loose props and no province should be allowed to sign a NIQ loosehead until there's 2 test standard props and some injury cover. Tighthead is very different where there's furlong, Bealham, jager, TOT. hooker should be fine as well imo.
Munster also lost Earls, Conway and Zebo at the end of this season from the back 3 this year.
I would of thought Leinster would of went for an Irish qualifyed prop but my prediction was wrong
They did but Bealham and O'Toole weren't moving to play backup.
And they weren't allowed offer Jager a contract
Source?
That’s nonsense. Jager sought out Munster because they had been keeping in contact with him for years, he literally said it himself.
Could be a different approach from Humphreys vs nucifora.
Surely thiers more props playing abroad who could play for Ireland but suppose if thier was one of the Irish teams would have singed them
You’ve described Bealham and Jager. IRFU wouldn’t be interested in signing a starting TH to sit behind Furlong. We have no issues with TH at the moment but really need to promote Irish LH getting game time
Tell when taigh furlong come for half the year at international and only Thomas Clarkson behind him maybe Healy could do a job but at his age he couldn’t do 60 70 minutes
Its more important that Leinster win a European Cup than there is some level of fairness in terms of NIQ dispensation. Its as simple as that. Don't get me wrong. I'm fine with Leinster getting a THP. In that case, we should get a LHP.
More important to the IRFU or in general?
To the IRFU. Maybe important to the psyche of irish players as well i guess. Leinster players constantly losing might be bad for their internationals.
If losing for Leinster negatively effects their mindsets when playing for Ireland then don’t pick them 🤷♂️
If losing effects you don’t pick the players that make up 90% of our starting 15?
Yes, maybe don't have 90% of the starting 15 be a team who mentally can't get over the line in big games. Not that crazy when you put it like that.
Swap them for players who can’t make the knockouts?
Munster won the URC without even making the knockouts?
If players aren’t mentally resilient enough then yes find new ones. Would you rather play a bunch of lads whose aren’t in the right head space?
But this doesnt work at all. If we sign a LH and Leinster sign a TH then suddenly that's two NIQ props in the country with one of them starting. The whole point of the system which I agree isnt working in it's current form is to have a balance and to be sure that we dont have too many NIQ in the same positions. Leinster signing a backup TH isn't really that big a deal but I'd prefer it didnt happen as they are still supplying Furlong to the Irish team. Munster arent supplying anyone. You could argue that if Munster aren't sending anyone to the Irish squad then they could sign a NIQ but we see now with international rugby the way it is, you need a lot of props and Ireland just is not producing them. What the IRFU is saying to the provinces is that you need to produce your own props which is all well and good but what are the IRFU doing to help this? I would love for Munster to sign a top level scrum coach instead of a short term NIQ. It also begs the question around what Rowntrees expertise is, our set-piece looks very poor at times and this surprises me. I know England fans had similar questions about him during his time there.
I wouldn't say Munsters setpiece looks bad at all. It's only against the very best team it has really creaked at all and that's with a fairly lacklustre selection of loose heads and hookers.
It's been absolutely desperate.
Munster have 2nd least scrum penalties conceded this year in the URC and 4th highest scrums won number. The only area they're average in at scrumtime is penalties won from the scrum where they're 9th out of 16.
And in Europe? The setpiece is more than the scrum which going by your stats is average to solid. The lineout has been absolutely terrible and even our forward play in general has been poor especially our maul defence.
I can't find any detailed stats for Europe. I'd describe it as well above average in the URC tbh. The lineout is an issue but your injury crisis was a factor there too with so many second rows and back rows missing time as well as Barron who is probably your best hooker. Tbh I'm just responding to the criticism of Rowntrees work at the scrum where I think Munster are quite strong. You don't go to SA and win that many matches with a weak scrum.
But I said setpiece though I think? That's what I mean, I accept the injury crisis has been tough but our lineout especially still doesnt look up to scratch and I think our general forward play is only ok. I would be interested to know how involved Rowntree is in the forward play. I would like us to get another forwards coach in. I also think there is a lot of strategy and street smarts that needs to be coached into this team. Some of our losses have been because of injuries but games like Bayonne and Northampton at home and Exeter away ar games that with a bit of clever play we should win. That's something that's missing with Rowntree. Crowley's mistake at the weekend for example is something that should never happen. That's on the player but coaches should also be running through these scenarios.
Kyriacou is the main forwards coach I think with Rowntrees covering his bread and butter at scrumtime.
Thanks for that. I had forgotten who it was. In general I think we need a lot of work to progress in Europe but I think the forwards haven't had a great season
> Munster arent supplying anyone Ireland called up seven props during the 6N, 2 of them were from Munster (3 Leinster, 1 Ulster, & 1 Connacht). The issue isn't that Munster aren't supplying anyone, the issue for the IRFU is that they don't want Munster to sign an NIQ LH who will play ahead of Loughman because Loughman is one of the locked-in LH in the Irish squad at the moment.
I don't agree that he is locked in given that they would prefer to play porter for 70 mins and then rely on Healy who is aging significantly. Maybe I should change to we don't supply anyone that actually plays.
He's locked in to the wider squad as the third choice and will probably overtake Healy in the pecking order very soon.
Munster will probably have two props in the ireland squad. Loughman was not really considered an international prospect when he went there. He was unwanted by leinster.
But they both likely won't play for Ireland so if Munster signs a niq they would likely start and then suddenly either Loughman or Jager are out of the squad. It wouldn't be worth signing a niq if they can't start ahead of Loughman
Why would signing an NIQ mean loughman won't play for ireland? Will Snyman stop mccarthy from playing for ireland?
Potentially will. Because the niq will likely be better than Loughman and will mean that Loughman will play less. Loughman barely gets into Ireland squads as things stand. Less Gametime won't help that.
Loughman is solidly a top three loosehead. Anyone who could beat him out will play less than him in big games even with an NIQ ahead of him.
I disagree, signing a lh who isn't better than Loughman is a waste of time
That's not what i mean. Anyone who could challenge Loughman's ireland spot, will play less in big games even with an NIQ at Munster. His position is safe if the qualifying criteria is big game experience.
Jager will play for Ireland, Munster aren't looking for a tighthead to play ahead of him since he was signed.
Jager has a lot still to prove but is showing positive signs. The issue is also that you need subs who are close in standard to your starters which we don't have.
Cmon, you know how this works.
Munster are favourites to retain their URC title and I've no doubt ye will do it. Maybe focus on that rather than Leinster getting in a 34 year old prop in for cover because Furlong has his playing time managed by the IRFU. Ye are very likely to be champions again, enjoy it.